I hadn't been paying attention to the Amanda Knox brouhaha in Italy, but, yeah, it turns out to be just another example of the Hunt for the Great White Defendant. A black burglar raping and murdering a college girl is depressing, boring and stereotypical, even in Italy, so let's spice up the crime by making up stories about how the victim's 20-year-old white Seattleite roommate must have been the Real Killer, as OJ would say. Back in March, commenter nightowl2548 wrote:
Just read up on the Amanda Knox case in Italy and am struck how this is Europe's version of "The Great White Defendant." She is obviously innocent, all she did was come home from her boyfriend's in the morning and had the misfortune to be the first to stumble upon the crime scene. For that the cops interrogated her for 43 hours and demanded she "imagine" how it may have happened. They then announced "case closed" until two weeks later the forensic evidence came back all pointing to a local black burglar. Yet the local cops and tabloids refused to believe it and instead defamed an ordinary college girl out of pure spite and hatefulness towards Americans. To them a granola crunching, pot smoking, hippie Seattle girl is a right wing, rich, spoiled, warmongering, arrogant Bush loving American. Just like a liberal getting caught in a race riot, they hate us all no matter what our politics.
I don't really like the word "meme," but it's important to realize how important it is which memes colonize the hive mind and which don't. The meme of "The Hunt for the Great White Defendant" was coined by Tom Wolfe in the Great American Novel of the 1980s, The Bonfire of the Vanities, but, as far as I can tell, it disappeared from consciousness until I started using it to describe Dick Wolf's TV show Law & Order around 2005 or so. I applied it to the Duke Lacrosse rape hoax in 2006, and it kind of, sort of took off from there, but, honestly, there's probably seldom more than two degrees of separation between anybody who uses it and me. It's not the kind of thing that, say, the New York Post would use in a headline yet. Basically, 99.9% of Americans, much less Italians, aren't memetically equipped yet to get the joke.
Posts
115 comments:
O J Knox
I don't think this is quite as clear cut as the lacrosse case. Barbie Latza Nadeau's Angel Face does a good job laying out the evidence against Knox and her boyfriend. Not conclusive, but plenty of circumstantial evidence.
The Knox family did a great job playing the American media. (Nadeau discusses that in detail.) Not too hard because your "hot white defendant" was also a hippie child from the Northwest while the prosecutor was an eccentric conservative Catholic.
This is exquisite. I hadn't even heard about all the racial angles, especially that the victim was half Asian Indian. Anyhow, you're linked already by Ex-Army HERE.
Steve you should look at this Seattle blog post that someone linked yesterday...it's hilariously heart-wrenching.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/deeply-embarrassed-white-people-talk-awkwardly-about-race/Content?oid=9747101
was also a hippie child from the Northwest
not doing rachael corrie much good, is it?
is it great white defendant or just another case of italian 'efficiency'?
i actually heard more about that case via the british papers than american, and the british ones, from telegraph to bbc news online seemed to be against Knox, mainly, i think because the victim was 'british'.
If it really is a case of a black avoiding prosecution again, it shows just how damaging this post 1960s behavior is.. it's got to go! maybe when the baby boomers finally retire....
thank you for not liking the term 'meme' more Dawkins nonsense.
In the Oct. 4 Guardian, US writer Douglas Preston runs through evidence suggestive of Knox's innocence, and presents background material that is deeply unfavorable to prosecutor Guiliano Mignini.
I haven't followed this case, so can't vouch for Preston (not that my pseudonymous endorsement is worth much).
Amanda Knox: victim of Italian code which puts saving face before justice.
It should be noted that there was a ton of DNA evidence in the victim’s room, but that NONE of it belonged to Amanda Knox. There is no way to selectively remove DNA evidence for one person while leaving it behind for another person in the same crime scene. This would especially be the case if there had been a drug fueled orgy.
BTW, Knox did not purchase bleach to clean up the crime scene, which wasn’t cleaned up in any event. This is a myth repeated by the source Craig lists.
I'm a young guy and I think Knox is hot so I'm glad she got off. I could care less if she did it or not.
People are going to say this reflects badly on the Italian legal system and police methods and while they may be corrupt and somewhat incompetent, the standards for collection evidence properly are so exacting nowadays that I imagine most cops can't do it well and if you can afford a good lawyer it's not hard to create reasonable doubt in their methods, even if they were trying their best.
There was never a search for the "real white killer" because Rudy Guede, the black guy, was convicted right away. And the anti-American angle is nonsense too because Amanda Knox's Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, was wrongly convicted along with her.
The Italian media played up Knox's (perceived) sluttiness. If anything, those two kids were crucified for their "immoral" behavior, not because they're white or because Knox is American.
"Obviously innocent"??
Let's not forget that the Italian appeal court upheld Knox's conviction for falsely accusing Patrick Lumumba of the murder, and increased her sentence on that charge to 3 years. Or maybe that hasn't been mentioned in the American press reports?
Viewing the matter from the UK, there is a lot more sympathy for the victim and her family. Granted that the DNA evidence is inconclusive (not false, just inconclusive), and that the prosecutor handled the case bizarrely, there are several remaining lines of evidence:
- Knox's own signed statement indicating that she was present in the building at the time of the murder (later withdrawn on the unsubstantiated grounds that it had been made under duress)
- her false accusation against Lumumba
- inconsistencies between the alibis of Knox and her boyfriend, despite claiming that they were together at the time
- the alibi of Sollecito conflicting with hard evidence (computer records)
- forensic evidence that the 'break-in' was faked
- forensic evidence that one or more people in addition to Rudy Guede were involved
- Rudy Guede's claim that Knox and Sollecito were present and responsible for the murder (admittedly not strong evidence in itself)
- circumstantial evidence about Knox and Sollecito's behaviour on the day after the murder.
In many American states this would be enough to put a needle in your arm. I guess that in a UK appeal court the discrediting of the DNA evidence would probably lead to the conviction being found 'unsafe', but that the case would then be sent for retrial by a fresh jury.
ann coulter's column makes a case for at least A knox being a bit fishy.. maybe Knox, being a SWPL northwest coast child of hippie liberals, tried to defend the black criminal and got more than she bargained for?
Knox may or may not have killed her but she was there and took part. She knew details that were not known to the public and changed her story half a dozen times.
Her parents were rich enough to get a good PR machine and good lawyers. And maybe bribe the oh so pristine Italian officials.
In some cases women will go along with sex crimes in a 'submissive' role. In the late seventies I spoke to some sex crimes experts and they said that ten or twenty years before you might see one or two cases like that every few years. In the late seventies, they were seeing more and seeing some women committing sex crimes without a male urging them too.
Sexual liberation was a great thing.
I believe from what I have seen and pulling this out of my ass, ahem my ear, that Knox was a submissive in the role and got off by doing what she was told. The harder he pushed her to do something against her inhibitions the better she liked it.
Like Steve, I studiously avoid wasting time on the latest MSM scandalous distraction of the day.
However, Ann Coulter had a strong article on the subject that I did read.
Coulter's take was the opposite of Steve's. Coulter thinks the evidence shows Knox clearly guilt, so American leftist naturally want to free her like cop killer Mumia.
It doesn't seem likely Knox and her Italian boyfriend would join the black guy in the murder/rape. But Coulter points out a few clear lies and misdirections Knox told the cops.
There shouldn't be a "liberal position" or a "conservative" position on simple justice. Amanda Know was railroaded, for whatever reason, and there's every indication that she was innocent. Full stop.
Tschafer
The appeals court had three options - affirm the guilty verdict, find the evidence insufficient for conviction (a "not guilty" verdict, or, more specifically, "not proven") or find her innocent. The court chose the last one. That meant that they did not feel that she might have done it but the state just didn't prove it - they felt she was completely innocent. Was "Bonfire of the Vanities" translated into Italian?
I noticed this from the absolute get-go. And it was obvious the black guy not only did it, but was convicted. It was like solving a murder; convicting the murderer; and then convicting others of the same murder after one would assume the case was closed. I just figured Italians must be insane.
Baloo,
Must you plug that Ex-Army site in every comment?
Craig:"… while the prosecutor was an eccentric conservative Catholic."
I understood the prosecutor was under inditement for prosecutorial misconduct in the Monster of Florence case. In that case, one of serial murders on lovers lane, the prosecutor became obsessed that some freemason/illuminati/plutocrat conspiracy involving ritual sacrifice was behind the murders instead of some run of the mill serial killer.
To me, an "eccentric Catholic" would be Jimmy Stewart in "Harvey". The Italian prosecutor was more like the one in the McMaster Preschool case: someone who becomes so obsessed over the course of the investigation and trial that he loses all perspective. If I am wrong, please correct me.
The Italians have managed to combine first-world hangups about race (such as their fear of placing the blame for the crime wholly on a black man) with third-world law enforcement methods. Remind me why the Germans and French are bailing them out again?
She kind of looks like a 12-year-old boy.
"Meme" is sort of like using "paduan"- it marks one as a potential D&D fanatic.
While I am reluctant to quote her, Ann Coulter argues pretty convincingly that Amanda Knox is more of a Bill“Guilty as hell, free as a bird—America is a great country” Ayers type than the Great White Defendant:
"Knox's first-of-several alibis for the night of the murder was that she was at her boyfriend (and co-defendant) Sollecito's house all night, sound asleep until 10 a.m. the next morning.
A few days later, when that was proved false by telephone records, eyewitnesses and Sollecito's admission that it was a lie, Knox claimed she was in the house during Meredith's murder ... and she knew who the murderer was!
She said it was her boss, Patrick Lumumba, the owner of a popular bar in town:
"He wanted her. ... Raffaele and I went into another room and then I heard screams. ... Patrick and Meredith were in Meredith's bedroom while I think I stayed in the kitchen. ... I can't remember how long they were together in the bedroom, but the only thing I can say is that at a certain point I remember hearing Meredith's screams and I covered my ears. ... I can't remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard thuds but I could imagine what was going on."
Solely because of Knox's claim that Lumumba murdered Meredith, he was arrested and sat in jail for two weeks before being released when the police discovered about a hundred eyewitnesses who could place him at his bar all night, the night of the murder.
If the police were intent on framing Knox for the murder, they were easily distracted by this wild goose chase.
Knox later said she falsely accused Lumumba only because the police wanted her to do so..."
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-09-07.html
"Not conclusive, but plenty of circumstantial evidence."
If by circumstantial evidence, you mean spectral evidence, maybe. As for DNA and other scientific evidence, not so much.
In the US, a case like this would usually (but not always) be thrown out before trial-- crazy police theories tend to get shot down early by the DA. One similarity between the Knox case and the Duke Lacrosse Team case is that the lunatic theory was pushed by a corrupt prosecutor.
Apropos, since I just added "The Great White Defendant" to my list of "White Privileges": I'm working on a piece on "White Privilege" and I'd appreciate any thoughts interested folks could add:
Call for Comment: White Privilege
Carol, I don't know if my previous comment linking to my blog will go through, but that's the piece I'm gearing up to answer. First I at least want something basic debunking "White Privilege" up though.
I had the weird feeling she did hve something to do with it. They said she was acting weird when they pulled her in,giggling and doing cartwheels.(wtf?) The blacketty black got 30 years,that then cut down to 16. It seems the Italians are living up to their image as inept.
I haven't followed the case much, would've followed it even less if Knox weren't HOT!, but Ann Coulter had this to say about it.
Well, I haven't really followed the case, but from what it said in the papers, the circumstantial evidence against her seemed pretty strong, a mixture of DNA and her trying to frame some innocent local guy by lying to the police.
But anyway, I've never thought of the rural folks living in some small Italian town as being totally PeeCee or mind-controlled by Hollywood. And apparently they're mostly sure "she dun it", so I think she probably did.
Sounds a lot like the OJ case, or the recent one with the IMF guy...
I haven't been following the case either but The Hunt is a global phenomenon, is it?
Wow.
The term "Great White Defendant" may be getting some traction. I read it and saw the concept and its origin with Tom Wolfe accurately described the other day in the book "Arrest-Proof Yourself" by Dale Carson, which is a book about how not to get arrested written by a former police officer turned criminal defense attorney from Florida. Whether he's a fan of Wolfe's, yours, has seen the phenomenon regularly in his career, or any or all of the above, I can't say.
You might be on to something here Steve, I too wondered whether this prosecution was motivated in part by anti-Americanism. On the other hand, those who see everything through nationalist lens.... or something about going through life as a hammer and only seeing nails.
What about the claim that Amanda Knox has so much support, from so many people, because she's fairly attractive and she's White?
Amanda Knox is a child of privilege: She gets to be a country criss-crossing elite. I bet some would like to see her brought down.
How could you know for sure that the black guy did it by the way? You're guessing just like everyone else yet you write without any hint of doubt. How are you able to go through life so certain that you know it all?
Steve,
Sorry for being off topic, but could do a post on this ridicules article out today in SFGate?
Raju and Simmi Kumar were busy Tuesday afternoon
"We want to help the poor people back in India who work for us to make these beautiful things," Raju Kumar said.
Here in the United States, their family of five - they have three children, ages 13, 14 and 19 - struggles to make ends meet also.
"It's very tight, let me tell you," he said. "We never, ever go out, we always cook all three meals at home. But expenses are going all the way up."
A report released Tuesday underscored how the Kumar family reflects the realities of the working poor. According to a formula called the Self-Sufficiency Standard, a family of four (with two adults, one preschooler and one school-age child) in the nine-county Bay Area now needs $74,341 a year to get by, compared with $62,517 three years ago."
Probably the most salient thing to say about the "great white" meme in this Italian context is that it really doesn't fit. Italian prosecutors haven't spent decades piling up convictions of blacks so as to begin feeling a need to prove their racial even-handedness, either to themselves or others, which was of course Wolfe's point about Brooklyn in "Bonfire." If Knox didn't participate, the likely reason for her conviction might well be anti-americanism. BDS was pervasive among Italians, something I wouldn't have known if I hadn't made it my business to chat up several Italian tourists and ex-pats over the last decade.
I like a good real-life whodunit, so I sat down with the Knox case about a year ago. Had the whole evening free with no responsibilities and was looking forward to some armchair detective.
After about an hour I gave up. The case against her was absurd, and the guilt of the African guy who did it was obvious.
I'm glad she's free. I hope she makes a couple million from her book. I'll buy it.
Hmmm, I wish I could read all of that dull post by the Stranger's Jen Graves. The dullness just sort of overpowered my senses and induced retinal dysfunction and I couldn't distinguish the little squiggly lines. It's too bad the meritocratic economy is designed to punish harshly anyone who flouts the holy infallible instructor, cuz if I were in that class at ye olde Cornish College of Arts when she pulled the "raise hands" shtick I'd love to oblige and succinctly announce my gauche racism against smug white elderly schoolgirls such as herself. As for Knox, didn't care about her before and don't care now. Maybe on some abstract level I hope she is innocent, but it doesn't really faze me that her semester-abroad vay-kay was rudely interrupted by a few years in jail (could be character-building). The cheers and huzzahs from the local viewing parties the other day--probably a good cross-section of Seattle's old-line lawyers/doctors/shrinks/uni administrators--were truly pathetic
I don't think this is quite as clear cut as the lacrosse case.
Pretty darn close to it.
Barbie Latza Nadeau's Angel Face does a good job laying out the evidence against Knox and her boyfriend.
Never take the word of anyone named "Barbie".
1 bit that was new to me was that her dashing Italiano boyfriend (I think he resembles the creepy concierge in the "Hostel" movies) sorta sold her out early on, before prosecutors got the Satanic-cult element underway.
Thus, I disagree with the prior comment that Euros instinctively-biodeterministically hate all Americans, even (zounds!) anti-Republican Americans. That's really a simplistic gloss on it. The fairer rap would be that they don't see much need to stick their necks out, when the proverbial chips aren't up. We in the U.S. have been laughably late to realize this particularly obvious fact. But it's comforting to see that their judicial/D.A. bench is just as corrupt and self-seeking as ours
File that one under "The Journalismification of Everything"; Knox's hard knocks were essentially a media story, i.e. about the media themselves, more than anything else. How long till the movie version about the Woodward/Bernstein/Kathryn Stockett who blasted open the Dan Brown-style conspiracy of "The System" against an innocent progressive student? Hopefully Blake Lively or Robert Pattinkanon (sp?) lands the role of the intrepid Corriere della Serra cub reporter. I note that even "Kneepads" Nina Burleigh got a book out of this one, blurbed by Joe McGinniss at that. (btw I'm not trying to be mean to Burleigh who after all ranks 137th on the Mediaite Power Grid--I just can't remember which one she is without the pads mnemonic.)
Do you realize that Steven Pinker quotes you in his new book "the better angels of our nature" on page 82?
"Barbie Latza Nadeau's Angel Face does a good job laying out the evidence against Knox and her boyfriend. Not conclusive, but plenty of circumstantial evidence."
Barbi Nadeau is a tabloid journalist whose qualifications for analyzing DNA evidence are nil.
"While the common wisdom is that the tabloid media played a major role in spreading lies and misinformation, the reality is that a trio of yellow journalists have been the worst offenders. Those journalists are Nick Pisa, Barbie Nadeau and Andrea Vogt. These three journalists were the chief architects of the Foxy Knoxy myth and have fueled the Anti-Knox fervor working as mouthpieces for Giuliano Mignini, the corrupt and convicted prosecutor that secured the convictions against Knox and Sollecito."
I'd rather believe John Douglas:
http://www.groundreport.com/World/Unarresting-the-Arrested-FBI-Profiler-John-Douglas_1/2941619
By the way, Nick Pisa of the Daily Mail wrote an entirely fictitious article that Knox and Sollecito were judged guilty by the appeals court, replete with fabricated quotes.
This stayed on the Daily Mail site for 90 minutes.
Is Ms Knox "obviously" innocent? From what I've seen on American TV, which has a blatantly pro-Knox bias*, the evidence against her was insufficient to prove her guilt. That's not the same as being innocent, much less obviously so.
Are the Italians now anti-American, too? My recollection is that they used to be among the least anti-Am Europeans; certainly much less so than the French or the Spanish. The latter are, I'm told, the most anti-Am people in Europe, except maybe the Russians (and only maybe, which tells you how much Spaniards seem to dislike Americans).
*One wonders just how pro-Knox CNN et al. would have been if the case had concerned Andy Knox, a white Southern fraternity boy with a history of right-wing activism in college.
More Barbi:
"“criminologists agree overwhelmingly that covering the body is almost always the mark of a woman, especially if it is done after the murder.” Have experts outside of this investigation ever said this?"
Regarding Guede
"In the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito defense attorneys were not able to get police to come in and testify as to their investigation of three incidents prior to the murder involving Rudy Guede, including one in which he threatened a person with a knife inside his own home. The defense had to rely on the testimony of actual victims who had themselves been robbed and threatened by Rudy Guede. Why wouldn’t police testify in court about this? Their testimony would have had more weight than that of citizens and they would have had access to information not available to the victims. Discussion: This is an enduring mystery of the case. "
Guede is guilty as hell.
Case closed.
How could you know for sure that the black guy did it by the way?
Because there is actually some pretty solid evidence that he did do it?
Knox may or may not have killed her but she was there and took part.
Too bad there is not a single shred of evidence to support that assertion. But you've clearly got some psycho-sexual issues of your own to work out.
I had the weird feeling she did hve something to do with it. They said she was acting weird when they pulled her in,giggling and doing cartwheels.(wtf?)
Sounds like a guilty murderer to me!
No, it sounds like she was drunk or stoned, neither of which deserves to be punished with 26 years in jail.
but from what it said in the papers, the circumstantial evidence against her seemed pretty strong, a mixture of DNA and her trying to frame some innocent local guy by lying to the police.
The DNA evidence turns out to be worthless, which is why their convictions were overturned.
And the claim that she lied to police to try to frame some innocent guy is pretty shaky also.
Barbie Latza Nadeau is hardly a tabloid journalist.... she writes for Newsweek.
Circumstantial evidence: Why did her boyfriend lie about calling to report the "break-in"? He did not call before the police arrived but said he did.
Or maybe, why Knox call her mother at 4.00 am Seatle time on the day the body was discovered? (This was before the police arrived but after the murder.) Knox claims she does not remember the call. It seems like a terribly rude thing to wake poor old mum up so early for no good reason.
There was evidence that suggested more than one person was involved (e.g. two different knoves were used). So uou can't blame the police for not stopping when they matched Rudy Guede.
Guede was not some random burglar. Who was also a drug dealer who had been to the house where the murder occurred he was known to both Knox and Kercher.
"Circumstantial evidence: Why did her boyfriend lie about calling to report the 'break-in'? He did not call before the police arrived but said he did.
Or maybe, why Knox call her mother at 4.00 am Seatle time on the day the body was discovered? (This was before the police arrived but after the murder.) Knox claims she does not remember the call. It seems like a terribly rude thing to wake poor old mum up so early for no good reason.
There was evidence that suggested more than one person was involved (e.g. two different knoves were used). So uou can't blame the police for not stopping when they matched Rudy Guede.
Guede was not some random burglar. Who was also a drug dealer who had been to the house where the murder occurred he was known to both Knox and Kercher."
I move for judgments on the pleadings and move for Rule 11 sanctions given such a frivolous case.
What's that, judge? Ruling in my favor on all motions? Thanks.
Commenters who are referencing Coulter as a source should be aware that most of the evidence she refers to in her Sept 7 column has long since been proven inaccurate. Why would she write about this case if she hasn't been keeping up with it? What are the chances she'll apologize?
The whole problem with Coulter's argument is that even if Knox was in the apartment house and later "acted guilty" there's no DNA or other evidence linking her with the murder.
Its hard to see how 1 person could leave bloody footprints, hand-prints, and DNA evidence at the murder scene and the other 2 wouldn't.
And there's no real motive and the prosecutors never really proved she was killed by more than one person.
Barbie Latza Nadeau is hardly a tabloid journalist.... she writes for Newsweek.
Ha ha ha!
Wait .. did you realize how hilarious you were being?
Why did her boyfriend lie about calling to report the "break-in"? He did not call before the police arrived but said he did.
You have your facts wrong.
"At 12:47 pm, Knox called her mother in Seattle, who told her to call the police. Sollecito then made two calls to the emergency number 112, at 12:51 and 12:54 pm. He reported a break-in, blood, a locked door and a missing person. However, before the Carabinieri (National Guard) arrived in response to these calls, two officers of the Post and Communications Police arrived at 12:35 pm to investigate the discovery of Kercher's mobile phones near another house. Knox and Sollecito were outside and told the police that they were waiting for the Carabinieri, that a window had been broken and that there were spots of blood in the bathroom."
why Knox call her mother at 4.00 am Seatle time on the day the body was discovered? (This was before the police arrived but after the murder.) Knox claims she does not remember the call. It seems like a terribly rude thing to wake poor old mum up so early for no good reason.
She's terribly rude! Let's send her to jail for murder!
I'm surprised so many iSteve readers think Ann Coulter is credible. I thought they'd be better than that.
David: In many American states this would be enough to put a needle in your arm.
Sounds like David gets his news about US justice from the Grauniad and Hollywood. They're even less credible than Coulter.
Knox has evil eyes. The eyes don't lie. She is guilty of something to do with this case.
Let's not forget that the Italian appeal court upheld Knox's conviction for falsely accusing Patrick Lumumba of the murder
Which is pretty damn incoherent, when you consider that the Italian Supreme Court found that Knox' rights were violated when the police did not tell her her legal rights, did not appoint her a lawyer, did not assign her an interpreter, and made her sign a confession which they wrote in Italian.
Granted that the DNA evidence is inconclusive (not false, just inconclusive)
There is no DNA evidence linking Knox and Sollecito to the murder. That's what the appeals court ruled. It is not "inconclusive" evidence, it is non-existent.
No, Fred, I don't have to, and I do only when I think the link has something to add to the subject. Watch:
The thing about Ann Coulter is that she's extremely good at being hilariously snarky. When she happens to be right about something, it's a very good thing. When she's wrong, it's sad that she's so convincing. In this she rather resembles Limbaugh. Both are pretty reliable mouthpieces for the neocon agenda, and, as it happens, neocons try to be right about 3/4 of the time, so they can slip that other quarter through.
There was evidence that suggested more than one person was involved (e.g. two different knoves were used).
There wasn't, really. Guede's DNA was found both on and in Kercher's body. No other DNA was found either on or in her body. So unless this other person was wearing a full body condom, Guede acted alone.
If Knox is innocent, why did she do so much lying?
While I am reluctant to quote her, Ann Coulter argues pretty convincingly that Amanda Knox is more of a Bill“Guilty as hell, free as a bird—America is a great country” Ayers type than the Great White Defendant
Coulter's column is shot through with errors. For instance-
"Knox's first-of-several alibis for the night of the murder was that she was at her boyfriend (and co-defendant) Sollecito's house all night, sound asleep until 10 a.m. the next morning."
"A few days later, when that was proved false by telephone records, eyewitnesses and Sollecito's admission that it was a lie.."
None of this is correct. Sollecito did not "admit" that anything was a lie. The eye-witness was a heroin addict whose story changed multiple times. It was never "proven" that Sollecito and Knox were not in Sollecito's apartment at the time of the murder. Still less was it ever proven that they were in Kercher's apartment at the time of the murder.
All Coulter has accomplished is to make herself look ignorant.
Knox was obviously not the killer, it was just as obviously the long-criminal history Black guy. Italians don't have a long history of racial oppression, and before that Slavery. So the Hunt for the Great White defendant must push other buttons.
Italians just love Blacks. Ask Robert DeNiro, or Al Pacino, or pretty much any Italian. They LOVE Blacks. Its just one of those weird things like the French and Jerry Lewis. That great love of Blacks probably explains why the Italians went after Knox. So the main guilty party would be a couple of White kids.
Knox, btw, comes from a middle class family. You might say her promiscuity was lamentable, but not criminal. [The Italians leaked her diary to the press, around 15 partners IIRC before 20. Sad but not criminal.]
Knox is totally innocent. Read about the prosecutor, widely called a corrupt monster.
Steve, you and your nightowl commenter seem to know little about the case to be so convinced of Foxy Knoxy's innocence. David at 6:44 AM lays out very well the reasons to beleive she had something to do with it.
The Congolese man she initially tried to frame for the murder would probably be rotting for it in prison today had he not at the time been seen by a hundred witnesses at his pub. That alone is unforgiveable, and deeply suspicious, and indicative of her character.
There are MANY other good reasons to beleive that she was the prime mover in the violent murder of her roommate. This is just another case of money often being the deciding factor in a case's ultimate trajectory.
Kinda surprised that as of comment #60, there are precious few swipes at Italian governmental efficiency, transparency, and trustworthiness.
Italy is corrupt as fuck. Just sayin'.
BDS was pervasive among Italians, something I wouldn't have known if I hadn't made it my business to chat up several Italian tourists and ex-pats over the last decade.
BDS? We supposed to just know?
If Knox is innocent, why did she do so much lying?
I don't know if she's innocent. I don't care. But I can easily see lying to Italian cops. On the other hand, I can way more easily saying exactly nothing to American cops, and that goes x100 for Italian cops.
Well, the search continues because she definitely ain't "hot."
There are MANY other good reasons to beleive that she was the prime mover in the violent murder of her roommate.
There is not a SINGLE good reason to believe that she had any involvement at all in the murder of her roommate. You don't offer one, and neither does Dave.
The Congolese man she initially tried to frame for the murder would probably be rotting for it in prison today had he not at the time been seen by a hundred witnesses at his pub.
Except that she did not try to frame anybody for anything. She was given a confession written in Italian to sign. There was no "frame" at all, unless you mean the one the police attempted.
It's striking that so many people sounding off on this case do not even know the basic facts about it which can easily be found online and read in a couple of minutes.
(or maybe you just don't know what the word "frame" means.)
If Knox is innocent, why did she do so much lying?
What "much lying" are you talking about?
Oh, okay, Bush Derangement Syndrome.
whiskey: Italians just love Blacks. Ask Robert DeNiro, or Al Pacino, or pretty much any Italian. They LOVE Blacks. Its just one of those weird things like the French and Jerry Lewis. That great love of Blacks probably explains why the Italians went after Knox.
Neither De Niro nor Pacino are Italians. They are of Italian heritage but they are Americans. If they were Italian they would speak, you know, Italian and prefer soccer to baseball. I doubt they do either. Italians are among the least PC whites when it comes to not only blacks but virtually all outsiders.
I don't think this is about race or anti-Americanism. It looks like the judicial corruption Italy is famous for.
She lied about where she was, she lied about what she was doing, she lied about who committed the murder...
The "details only known to the police" thing generally indicates that the police fed them details. This has happened countless times to people later shown innocent with DNA testing.
The prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, is an absolute incompetent nut. Crazier than Jim Garrison. After the Monster of Florence fiasco it is shocking that this boob was allowed anywhere near a courtroom.
http://tinyurl.com/675ybho
Lying to authorities, inconsistent statements, a promiscuous druggie who hated her more respectable roommate, look, she DID it. Or at least helped whoever else did. She's pure evil, look in those eyes.
For those men who think she's hot and don't care if she is a killer or not, enjoy being second class citizens.
A man in the same situation would never have this many defenders.
Carol Iannone’s NRO article, Redemption in Perugia, http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/278497/redemption-perugia-carol-iannone notes the racial spin the Italian prosecutor put on the case:
Is there a racial component, a truly malevolent political correctness, when the self-dramatizing prosecutor Mignini pleaded, ”Don’t let the poor black guy be the only one to pay the price for this murder.”
But is it hysteria or pure malignancy? Is it the willingness to destroy two innocent lives in order to save face for the original wrongful arrests and interrogations before Guede was found, and the many previous and subsequent prosecutorial and forensic lies, missteps, outrages, and ethical transgressions? Is there a racial component, a truly malevolent political correctness, when the self-dramatizing prosecutor Mignini pleaded, ”Don’t let the poor black guy be the only one to pay the price for this murder.” What could he mean by that? Guede committed a savage murder, and he is not going to pay nearly enough for what he did. If Amanda and Raffaele were guilty, they would deserve to pay, but they are innocent. What has race got to do with it? What is the meaning of playing the race card at this point? To ply white liberal guilt and get the convictions upheld despite the lack of evidence?
Some bizarre reported comments by the Italian appeal court judge here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/06/amanda-knox-judge-responsible
I don't buy the idea, expressed in many comments here, that Knox was 'railroaded' due to anti-American prejudice. Sure, there is anti-Americanism in Italy as elsewhere, but I can't see that having much influence on police and prosecutors. Do we, in fact, see hordes of innocent US citizens flung into jail in Italy? I think not. Apart from anything else, it would be bad for tourism. If anything, the authorities would bend over backwards *not* to prosecute a US citizen if the evidence is borderline. And anti-Americanism would hardly explain why they prosecuted Sollecito. I suppose the 'reasoning' would be that the authorities were so keen to prosecute an American that they were willing to sacrifice an Italian as 'collateral damage'!
If you've ever seen the movie Malena, you have the blueprint of what Italians really care about — hot, sinful women; and how they respond to them when they are perceived as a public nuisance — persecution, a sacrifice to appease their women and their own guilty conscience.
Is there a racial component, a truly malevolent political correctness, when the self-dramatizing prosecutor Mignini pleaded, ”Don’t let the poor black guy be the only one to pay the price for this murder.”
Ugh. Why is this even a matter of dispute? Special pleading for blacks i.e. criminals: nothing new under the sun.
who hated her more respectable roommate
We are into womens daytime TV territory there.
Knox: White.
Kercher: Asian/jewsih.
No public figure would ever dare make the comparison if the positions were reversed, exotic ethnic less respectable than a white. Never, pah, the very idea!
So already there is a false comparison at work.
If Knox was as off the rails as is made out (is she?) then why after some years of bad behaviour would she now get so upset as to kill someone, why not at HS, why not at Uni back in the US?
We are being sold that the idea that somehow exotic Meredith was so much better and more popualr than evil white Amanda. And why not, whites are a cancer of civilisation, why wouldnt one of these sub-humans not want to strike out at their wise and beutiful betters? That seems to be the story we are being sold.
The more likely story, that a black criminal did what comes naturally is apparently too far fetched is it?
A man in the same situation would never have this many defenders.
Translation:
A [white] man in the same situation would never have this many defenders.
A black man who actually commits murder has the prosecutor himself speaking in his defense.
lozlzozlzlz
On the UK version of Yahoo News the comments tell a story.
Overwhealmingly the herd believe she did it (naturally they know nothing of the evidence "We dont need no steeking eveidece!")
They believe that Knox is rich and her family got her free.
They believe that America will do anything to protect an American criminal abroad no matter how daming the evidence (what evidence?)
The believe that now she is free the conviction of Guede must be re-examined. Since they think she somehow framed him. In reality of course his conviction stands alone, its in no way linked to hers or the Italian guys'.
For me its weird to read, these are people who still develop their whole world view via the MSM. Sure they may vent their spleen on-line but they wouldnt think to use the internet to, you know, actually find out more about the case.
They are prone to BDS anti-Americanism and to the whole man-bites-dog element of the story.
Depressing.
"Knox has evil eyes. The eyes don't lie. She is guilty of something to do with this case."
Yea. They ought to have tossed her in the Tiber to see if she floats. The EYES!!!
How about Guede's eyes? I wonder, would you, anonymous #893478, rather find yourself staring into Guede's or Knox's EEEYESSSS some late night after too much partying?
I'd bet anything this Mignini fuck keeps a little box of nail clippings in his sock drawer. Superstition in power: always a tragicomedy of epic proportions.
Lying to authorities, inconsistent statements, a promiscuous druggie who hated her more respectable roommate, look, she DID it. Or at least helped whoever else did. She's pure evil, look in those eyes.
We don't need any stupid trial, just look at her eyes!
A man in the same situation would never have this many defenders.
A man was in the same situation, you jackass, His name is Raffaele Sollecito. Tell me, did you look in his eyes (in some Daily Mail photograph) and see pure evil also?
Truth said... She lied about where she was, she lied about what she was doing, she lied about who committed the murder...
Truth, you are hands down the dumbest commenter on this site, and one of the dumber commenters on the net.
Of course that assumes that your comments are intended to be taken seriously. More often than not you're just talking out your ass in an attempt to wind people up.
It would seem that your definion of "lied" means that she lied when see did not say "I was in Kerchers room that night and took part in her murder'. Though she somehow magically made all her DNA dissappear from the crime scene.
But then, it makes no sense to try to have a rational discussion with you. I doubt very much that you are capable of intelligent debate, and I'm quite certain that you do not want it even if you are capable of it.
The older I get...
The more morons I meet.
blogosphere regurgitator said...
Whew, I'd be at Google for half an afternoon, trying to make heads or tails of that post.
And here I thought that I was an iSteve nerd...
Rainforest Giant: The harder he pushed her to do something against her inhibitions the better she liked it.
There is definitely something weird about that chick.
Obviously, it could be that she is just an off-beat oddball nonconformist, marching to the beat of her own drummer, but my gut says, "Kinky".
And what I saw of her in her press conferences these last few days felt like watching one of the Menendez brothers, or William Kennedy Smith.
[Completely off-topic, but was Jose Menendez a Sephardic Jew?
I ask because the profile - wealthy "entertainment executive" in Princeton, NJ, who relocates to Beverly Hills - just screams "Jewish", and, of course, the name "Menendez" would imply Sephardim.
Apparently, though, Kitty was a shiksa, whose maiden name was "Anderson".]
Maybe this case is a good argument for our much maligned Miranda rights, which evidently they do not have in Italy. She was interrogated for what, 53 hours in a language she didn't speak, with a police officer as "translator," and allegedly denied water and bathroom breaks until she talked.
"Obviously innocent"??
Let's not forget that the Italian appeal court upheld Knox's conviction for falsely accusing Patrick Lumumba of the murder, and increased her sentence on that charge to 3 years. Or maybe that hasn't been mentioned in the American press reports?
Why do you give credence to the BS they squeezed out of a young girl through 43 hours of interrogation? And other coercion, such as telling her she tested (incorrectly) for HIV and then requiring her, under law, to lower her slut defenses by requiring her to reveal all her sex partners, etc. There's a lot of info on this at Lawrence Auster's "View from the Right" site. I'm sure she had plenty to hide, she wasn't a nun, but these had nothing to do with the murder.
-BWB
This is a case of good looking white murderer syndrome like the Jeffery MacDonald case.
The BBC WS reported that Knox was attractive and her victim was 'equally attractive'. That was because Knox is white in my opinion.
Knox has unfeminine looks (what do I know I think it's obvious Sarah Palin has quite a bit of Native American ancestry) she also has small deep set eyes. You know Charles Lindbergh said that Bruno Hauptmann was magnificently built but had eyes like a wild boar.
Anyway,soon after she arrived in Italy Knox approached a black man (not any of the ones in the case), asked for a date and punched the air when he said yes.
Her Italiano boyfriend has a knife fetish and habitually carried one.
Telegraph: Who is Raffaele Sollecito?
"Raffaele liked carrying and collecting knives – he was carrying one when he was first questioned by police.
He also appeared to have a taste for the macabre – he posted photographs online of himself posing as a cross between a mummy and a mad doctor, with a meat cleaver in one hand and a bottle of bleach in the other; and he was a fan of Japanese manga comics, known for their extreme violence and rape fantasies."
Check out the photos he posted of himself. He was the one who did it, he blew up and killed Meredith probably because she would not join in some kind of group sex activity, maybe he wanted to watch her with the black, it's a common fetish.
Knox went along with him. They tried to clean the place up and made a complete hash of it (unsurprisingly as Meredeth complained Knox didn't flush the toilet and left used sanitary products in the bowl.)
Telegraph: Amanda Knox: Guilty or innocent, five reasons why
"Sollecito claimed he used his computer to download and watch cartoons and Amelie. But computer experts told the court that there was no activity on his laptop between 9.10pm on Nov 1, and 5.32am the next morning — the time frame in which the murder took place.
Knox and Sollecito turned off their mobile phones on the night of the murder, from around 8.40pm, and turned them back on at around 6am, inviting further suspicion."
The BBC WS made the very telling point that this was the only time Knox switched off her mobile phone during her time in Italy.
Why have they been acquitted ? Well the Italian legal system is chaotic and highly politicized. The investigating magistrate in the Knox case is notorious as the one who made a pigs breakfast of the Monster of Florence investigation and put an innocent man away for the killings.
"Sollecito's family are from Giovinazzo near the southern city of Bari, on Italy's Adriatic coast, where his father is a successful and well-respected urologist. His wealth enabled him to hire a team of top defence lawyers, including Giulia Bongiorno, who is also an MP in Silvio Berlusconi's government."
However, Ann Coulter had a strong article on the subject that I did read.
Ann Coulter seems to have become the new Nancy Grace. These knee jerk conservatives seem to have a need to prove they are not soft on crime, even if it means throwing the innocent to the mob.
-BWB
How Sollecito's eyes look
Tod - The BBC WS reported that Knox was attractive and her victim was 'equally attractive'. That was because Knox is white in my opinion.
Good point, if they had both been white Amanda would obviously be the more attractive. But as a non-white cannot be rated as less attarctive...
"Sollecito's family are from Giovinazzo near the southern city of Bari, on Italy's Adriatic coast, where his father is a successful and well-respected urologist. His wealth enabled him to hire a team of top defence lawyers, including Giulia Bongiorno, who is also an MP in Silvio Berlusconi's government."
Then why didnt he get acquited four years ago?
Ann Coulter seems to have become the new Nancy Grace. These knee jerk conservatives seem to have a need to prove they are not soft on crime, even if it means throwing the innocent to the mob.
How's this for a neologism, "They need to demonstrate their bonafires."
-BWB
"Bonfire of the Vanities" The book is good, but what a great title! The title just gets better with the years.
I haven't been studying the case enough to have an opinion on Knox and Sollecito's innocence or guilt, but if Tod's arguments are the best the guilt side has, that's a bad sign. (I exempt the cell phone and computer claims, which if true are potentially incriminating, but the rest of what he said, especially that highly underwhelming photo - sheesh.)
"Sollecito was the one who did it, he blew up and killed Meredith probably because she would not join in some kind of group sex activity, maybe he wanted to watch her with the black, it's a common fetish.
Knox went along with him. They tried to clean the place up and made a complete hash of it (unsurprisingly as Meredeth complained Knox didn't flush the toilet and left used sanitary products in the bowl.)
And yet, incredibly enough, no DNA from Knox or Sollecito was found on or in Kercher's body. However, DNA from Rudy Guede was found on and in Kercher's body.
This whole discussion is depressing beyond words, and listening to superstitious idiots announce that "I know she did it - because I can see the evil in her eyes!" makes me doubt that the jury system is a good ideas. The jury system makes some assumptions about the intelligence and level-headedness of the average citizen.
People coming up with goofball fantasies about group sex gone wrong for which zero evidence exists are announcing that they are not fit to be part of civil society.
This problem goes beyond this one case. Look at all the credulous cretins who spent years arguing that Bush was behind 9/11. A disturbingly large percentage of people in the West, some of whom have good jobs and a college education, are irrational idiots.
The older I get...
The more morons I meet
Sounds like you should stop looking in the mirror so often.
How Sollecito's eyes look
They look like normal eyes to me. Of course, not being a superstitious savage I'm not under the impression that you can tell anything about a persons guilt or innocence by looking at a photograph of their face.
Tod: This is a case of good looking white murderer syndrome like the Jeffery MacDonald case.
Well, assuming all Tod's details about the case are factually correct, it certainly looks like she and her Italian boyfriend dun it...
Good point, if they had both been white Amanda would obviously be the more attractive. But as a non-white cannot be rated as less attractive...
Speaking of which, here's an apropos article from today's American Renaissance!
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2011/10/dr_satoshi_kana.php
-BWB
> We don't need any stupid trial, just look at her eyes!
She is a shape-shifting reptilian!
Charles Lindbergh commented on Hauptman's eyes but thought Bruno Hauptmann was guilty for a number of reasons none of which had anything to do with his unusualy eyes.
I think Knox was an accessory to Sollecito in killing Meredith for reasons that have nothing to do with the way she looks.
However, humans are mammmals. You look at a dogs eyes and then look at the eyes of a wolf/dog cross (small and slanted) and then tell me which looks more dangerous. Humans have been selected for detecting a untrustworthy looking person. Sollecito's facebook photos with knife and bleach should have been taken as a warning. And DNA doesn't survive bleach
Sollecito killed her he didn't want to have sex with her he wanted to see Meredith with the black. You go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt if you wish.
2007: Murder victim Meredith Kercher's DNA was found on a kitchen knife because suspect Raffaele Sollecito had once "pricked" her with it while cooking, he has claimed in his leaked prison diary..
"Raffaele Sollecito has written a prison diary in which he says the DNA of Meredith Kercher was only on his knife because they had cooked together
In one entry Sollecito referred to the eight-inch black handled knife, which was found in his apartment, with DNA from Meredith on the tip and Knox's near the handle.
He wrote: "The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologised immediately and she said it was not a problem."
However police have spoken to several of Meredith's friends who have all told detectives that Meredith, from Coulsdon, Surrey, had never been to Sollecito's house."
Raffaele Sollecito's DNA should be dangling from a long piece of rope.
Interesting that just like the case of the surprisingly good looking and well educated Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald, the actor playing Knox in the film of the case (I doubt Knox did the cutting as implied here) is not as good looking as the actual person Amanda Knox vs Hayden Panettiere She is more feminine though.
Well, the search continues because she definitely ain't "hot."
Take a look at Google Images and tell me she isn't hot. Four years in prison have taken their toll, but she's still attractive.
Unfortunately she is also almost certainly guilty, and there are plenty of hot single women available who didn't stab their roommates to death.
2007: Murder victim Meredith Kercher's DNA was found on a kitchen knife
2011: Oops, murder victim Meredith Kercher's DNA was not found on a kitchen knife after all. Tod continues to display the mental acuity of a turnip.
Yikes, that pic of Sollecito with the cleaver ain't so good. Not that it means anything, at all... Still think he resembles the Hostel concierge, or perhaps the deputy in Cabin Fever ("c'mon man, ya gotta PARTY! It's a PARTY TOWN")
p.s. Mr iSailer- the Hollywood Reporter site has a new thing up about political alignment of ticket buyers, though it basically confirms the confirmed CW. Also "Ides" apparently made some money/will break even (<-- you anti-Coulter true Scotsmen will probably prefer that link)
Hmm, I thought I was the only one who discerned a smidgen of that old Cherokee bewitchment in Palin's visage though of course it's hard to tell under the pounds of makeup. But it might just be the new hairstyle and mascara, and pix from the Glen Rice era don't support any such conclusions. Also, it would've come up during the over-ample emphasis on Todd's Yup'k heritage, which I have no idea how to pronounce
Steve's Great White Defendant paradigm is good one but it is a generalization and it can't apply to every case.
Here is something to think about: If the black Rudy Guede was a lone burglar who managed to overpower and kill Meredith why did he wait until his successful appeal to accuse Knox and her boyfiend of committing the crime?
At his original trial (where he claimed to have broken off a consensual petting session to rush to the toilet and returned to find Meredith dead, tried to help her then panicked and fled) it was in his interest to say that he had seen Knox and Sollecito coming out out of the room. But he didn't even though the investigation was clearly targeting Knox and Sollecito. He could have so easily finessed his story to implicate Knox and Sollecito while helping his own case, if he was a lone burglar/murderer. A lone burglar/murderer surely would have said just that facing a murder conviction.
The answer is perfectly clear: his was the dilemma that faces a prisoner with accomplices who could retaliate to his testifying against them not a lone burglar/murderer who could implicate innocent people. There is no other explaination.
"Certainly Rudy knows what happened and hasn't said it," (Judge) Hellmann said. "Perhaps the other two defendants also know, because, I repeat, our decision to acquit was the result of truth determined by the trial."[...]The law says that a small doubt, as long as it is reasonable, is enough to acquit," he told La Stampa. "And we were coherent with our convictions.""
Tod wrote:
"Humans have been selected for detecting a untrustworthy looking person."
But you haven't yet figured out that they have also been selected for looking trustworthy?
People have also been selected for having a brain, but a few (e.g. Tod) have certainly fallen through the cracks.
"Sollecito killed her he didn't want to have sex with her he wanted to see Meredith with the black."
You really are one sick puppy.
---Elwood
I spent a few days looking into it . I am an idiot. I am imbecilic in the assessment of evidence. I feel like crying. She is innocent.
Post a Comment