It's in Wikipedia so it's got to be true:
2011
Jordy Nelson is freakin' awesome.
Everybody is amazed that a white guy is tied for the NFL lead in yards per reception. But Jordy Nelson ran a 4.37 40-yard dash at the NFL combine. In contrast, Jerry Rice, the greatest NFL receiver ever, ran a 4.71.
If I had to guess, I would bet that on average whites peak in speed later and then slow up earlier (the latter was Bill James's finding in the 1980s about white vs. black baseball players who appeared to be equally fast as rookies in terms of triples hit, not grounding into double plays, stolen bases and so forth).
I would also guess that with whites, sprinting speed correlates more with a slender build than it does with blacks. On the playground as a kid, the fast white kids tended to be whippets. But then watching sports on TV, there seemed to be less correlation with shape among blacks. Fast blacks could come in unexpected shapes, like 1964 Olympic sprint star Bob Hayes, who went on to a pretty good NFL career as a wide receiver.
But Nelson was always documentably a terrific athlete -- a multi-event state sprint champion in high school track who is tall and strong. He's also the third string quarterback for Green Bay in case Aaron Rogers and his backup get hurt.
If I had to guess, I would bet that on average whites peak in speed later and then slow up earlier (the latter was Bill James's finding in the 1980s about white vs. black baseball players who appeared to be equally fast as rookies in terms of triples hit, not grounding into double plays, stolen bases and so forth).
I would also guess that with whites, sprinting speed correlates more with a slender build than it does with blacks. On the playground as a kid, the fast white kids tended to be whippets. But then watching sports on TV, there seemed to be less correlation with shape among blacks. Fast blacks could come in unexpected shapes, like 1964 Olympic sprint star Bob Hayes, who went on to a pretty good NFL career as a wide receiver.
But Nelson was always documentably a terrific athlete -- a multi-event state sprint champion in high school track who is tall and strong. He's also the third string quarterback for Green Bay in case Aaron Rogers and his backup get hurt.
In subtle manner, you just demolished the whole concept of the need for "speed" (i.e., Black athlete) that is constantly deemed as necessary to win.
ReplyDeleteYou never let me down Steve.
It doesn't demolish the need for speed.
ReplyDeleteBut you can see why coaches might overrate fast receivers. What is more teachable: running better routes or running faster?
Don Beebe and Tim Dwight would say you can teach speed (resistance drills and speed camps are huge in the suburbs).
ReplyDeleteRunning precise routes is all that matters when it comes to being a receiver (or a tight end in the NFL, who must contend with LBs and Safety's hitting him within the allotted five yards at the line of scrimmage).
Why do you think Peyton Manning likes guys like Brandon Stokley, Dallas Clark, Austin Collie, and Blair White?
It's all about synergy and perfect route running in the complex offenses in the NFL.
But the question must be asked: do Blacks mature faster than whites?
Jordy didn't have one scholarship offer out of high school. Wes Welker didn't either, until after national signing day and Texas Tech had a scholarship open up.
Nelson got better each year at K. State and is dominating the NFL this season. Welker, two years removed from ACL surgergy, is on pace to break Rice's single-year records.
It's just a shame Matt Jones liked cocaine more than making millions... he was starting to come on in Jacksonville before he found white lines too inviting a proposition to pass up.
"In subtle manner, you just demolished the whole concept of the need for "speed" (i.e., Black athlete) that is constantly deemed as necessary to win."
ReplyDeleteLLMFAO! Where exactly did he do that, again?
Wow! that's great. I love it when people break stereotypes. I hope he makes a ton of money in endorsements just like Tiger Woods did.
ReplyDeleteWhat?...oh
It seems that about once every five years the NFL gets one of these hyper-athletic white receivers. They all have a similar build to Nelson -- 6'4" plus, 215lb, and super muscular. Drew Bennett played this role in the mid 2000's. He could out-jump smaller quicker cornerbacks and get behind safeties. Also like Nelson, Bennett was a multi-sport star in high-school; he could've played baseball or basketball at Cal, but opted to play quarterback at UCLA. Ed McCaffrey also comes to mind. McCaffery reportedly ran 4.40 40's out of college and from the neck down looked almost exactly like Nelson.
ReplyDeleteOf note: Bennett hit a wall in his 29 year old season. He just stopped being fast. McCaffrey was still producing well into his 30's, but he was probably taking illegal supplements (if you look at old pictures it's obvious - plus he was teammates with Romanowski, so...). Similarly, hyper-athletic white basketball players like the Barry brothers, Jason Williams, and Rex Chapman, also had relatively fewer peak years.
In sum, I think you're right, whites who have fast-twitch musculature on par to elite black athletes have shorter shelf lives.
I would also guess that with whites, sprinting speed correlates more with a slender build than it does with blacks.
ReplyDeleteOf the two outstanding white sprinters who come immediately to my mind - Christophe Lemaitre and Valeriy Borzov -- I would say Lemaitre seems to fit the bill better here.
Also Usain Bolt is rather taller than stocky and powerful, I would say.
Rice used superior conditioning to make his moves in the fourth quarter, along with strategic hard-running of routes early. Rice aimed to use his conditioning to drag defenders down the field constantly, wearing them out, which he did.
ReplyDeleteEveryone understands what he did, but few have the fortitude to gain his conditioning, his workouts never ended, basically, and were amazingly brutal. Rice got slower too, just at a less advanced pace than his defenders, as the game went on.
The article by Simon Kuper in the FT Let's Play Moneyball had an odd comment. That the untold story of globalization was the rise of the cognitive elite at the expense of those less gifted.
That seems odd because even assuming talented White guys like Nelson have short peaks, well that's true for most NFL players (see Ladanian Tomlinson). You get an advantage drafting undervalued players. Pretty much everyone in MLB copied what Beane did, particularly the Red Sox. Why then has the NFL been so resistant given the massive incentives to win now?
I would also agree with Paul Kersey (if you're not reading Stuff Black People Don't Like you should be), pure speed is over-rated in the NFL given blitzes and the need to get the first down. Possession, West Coast style offenses need to get the ball out in three seconds, that's enough time to really have speed come into play, particularly now with the bunched receivers and the Spread Offense inevitably making its way into the NFL.
ReplyDeleteWhat puzzles me is why there isn't a huge demand for punters. The WSJ had an article on Brad Wing from LSU, who can place the ball in the corners at the two/three yard line. That's huge, your offense stalls, you have a lead, quick-kick ala Red Sanders (third down), force a three and out and flip the field.
What about Wayne Chrebet?
ReplyDeleteall you need to know is that he was offered zero DI scholarships.
ReplyDeletethere's nothing special about him, other than he got a chance to play at the NFL level. there's at least 10 guys right now, today, who aren't even allowed in the NFL, who are as good as jordy nelson and who could come in and play just as well. they could easily outplay dozens of the scrub receivers that teams trot out there every week.
receiver is by far, the worst position in american football when it comes to making sure only africans get on the field by the time a player's career rises to the NFL level. it's worse than running back and cornerback. again, i'm not saying they would take all the jobs and be all the best players. i'm just saying, there's plenty of guys who could easily compete and perform well at the NFL level, but they aren't even allowed.
the best players don't always play, and haven't, since about 1990. the best players used to play, after everybody was allowed in the league, and for a long time too. players were given reasonable, mostly accurate scouting reports no matter what race they were.
but then something changed 20 years ago. scouting players simply to win games changed into scouting players for...something else i guess. it started to not matter how effective and productive a player was unless he had that vague, hard to define "potential" and "upside". which apparently only afroletic blackletes have.
a good example was, back in 2006 when the miami dolphins fielded the blackest team of all time, 21 out of 22 starters. they were bad that year, going 6-10, after NCAA coach nick saban and especially, GM randy mueller, deliberately made the team as african as possible.
ReplyDeletei only saw one dolphins game that year, when they played the steelers, but it was obvious that this white backup receiver the dolphins had, was their only good player on offense. i never heard of him, but he went for about 100 yards on the steelers in combined yards.
it was no shock to me that a few games later, the word was, that nick saban wanted to cut him, to make a roster spot for marcus vick, michael vick's piece of shit, no talent brother. vick had "potential" and "upside" while the dolphin's only good playmaker had to be cut. other scrubs on the team were going to stay and definitely could not be cut - the one white receiver HAD TO GO.
the player's name: wes welker.
welker, was, of course, undrafted.
mueller has since moved on from the dolphins, to work his black "magic" elsewhere IE turning good teams into bad teams by converting them into all african squads. his current project being the san diego chargers, which he has turned from an AFC contender into an AFC pretender. we won't get into what this moron has done to jacob hester.
Tim Dwight's Iowa punt returns for TDs.
ReplyDeleteSometimes speed and athleticism don't translate fully into football success. At the time Jason Seehorn was a Giants CB, he was the fastest man on the team and its best athlete. He made a few memorable plays, but, overall, wasn't as dominant a DB as you might have expected, given his gifts.
ReplyDeleteI agree about the race and body type disparities among sprinters.
ReplyDeleteWhite fast athletes tend to be very lean, almost "Ethiopian". While black sprinters range from stocky thick guys to tall and rangy.
One black type almost never found among a white body type is the thickly built 6' sprinter. Bob Hayes, Homer Jones, Charles Alexander, Curtis Dickey, Herschel Walker, OJ Simpson, Bo Jackson.
The only one who comes to mind now is another Kansan like Nelson, the great John Riggins. A powerfully built 6'2" 230 range speed back. Even at 60 Riggo is in incredible shape.
The league has had some fast White wide receivers from Don Hudson to Lance Alworth and Roger Carr.
But a typical fast White man is built more like Jeremy Wariner, a body type that doesn't lend itself to an NFL career.
But you can see why coaches might overrate fast receivers. What is more teachable: running better routes or running faster?
ReplyDeleteRight, it's like basketball's "you can't teach height" bias. (So you sign Manute Bol.)
Seen in this light, you could say HBDers' suffer from "you can't teach IQ" bias, in which high IQ trumps every other consideration. (So they'd rather hire an anti-social nerd with peculiar niche intellectual obsessions who resists every effort to acquire on-the-job wisdom over someone with demonstrated/demonstrable interest in/dedication to the job.)
Neither is always wrong, but there are occasions when the bias is costly.
As for Don Beebe, who could forget this magic moment? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTeqQY_T2mE That was a passing play so he must have been some 15 yards (give or take) from the line of scrimmage when the ball was fumbled. But he had both the speed as well as the determination to run down Lett.
Silver
"Rice got slower too, just at a less advanced pace than his defenders, as the game went on."
ReplyDeleteDarrell Green ran a 4.2 40 at 40 years old.
Paul Kersey's obsessed.
ReplyDeleteApparently he was cut from bball team and that's what drives his obsession.
@Jody
ReplyDeleteNFL just drafts whoever puts up the big numbers in college. No conspiracy:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics
I don't know if this is the right thread to try again to make this point, but if you want more whites back in the game of football, then the ditch the substitution travesty and go back to 60-minute players.
ReplyDeleteAlmost immediately, you'd get rid of all the bizarre specialists - both the 5'8" 140lb guy with the 4.10 forty, and the 6'7" 380lb tub of lard with the 7.0 forty - and, instead, most of the guys on the field would start to look a lot more like 6'1"/6'2"/6'3" and 200lbs/210lbs/220lbs.
One other thing: Something has GOT to be done about "helmet tackling" - what used to be a 15-yard penalty, known as "spearing", back when I was a kid.
I have been sitting here this fall, watching a lot of football on the television, with my baby son on my lap, and I've been thinking to myself that I'll be damned if I'm gonna let some negro accelerate to 20 or 25 MPH, lower its head, and use its helmet as a lethal weapon directed at my boy.
Ain't gonna happen.
PS: Dittoes for the forearm shiver, and any similar "tackling" techniques, which are explicitly designed to harm the opposing player, and which really ought to come with an indictment for felony assault.
I was gonna say, "Wow - Riggins is 60?!?", but it's worse than that - I just checked Wikipedia, and he was born in 1949 - dude is already 62.
ReplyDeleteBTW, Sandra Day O'Connor was born in 1930, so he was hitting on a MILF/Cougar who was only 19 years older than he.
Do you pay for a NY Times subscription Steve?
ReplyDeleteTexas A&M has a pretty good white receiver ... junior Ryan Swope. He currently leads the team with 78 catches and 11 TDs, and he holds several school receiving records.
ReplyDeleteDon't know his 40 time but he appears to be "fast enough." It will be interesting to see if he gets any looks from NFL teams.
The fasted white guy I ever met was built like a Rhino. His first 5 meters weren't necessarily the fastest but after that you had better get out of his way. He would have been an amazing football running back and a good blocking back, but we grew up in a very small town so he was a soccer defender.
ReplyDeleteNeedless to say. He broke several legs in high school just by running through the ball as I recall (no foul!).
In fact I rarely see this kind of body type or this type of running in pro football today. You don't see too many Rhino's.
Jim
I'd guess that a lot of the natural advantage blacks have is hormonal: higher testosterone, higher HGH, etc. Once you're in an age of steroids, much of that goes away, which is why the Soviets could always compete with us at the Olympics despite not having black people.
ReplyDeleteSo why do black men still dominate sports like football? To be a top professional, you first need to be a top amateur, and it requires more natural talent to do that. High school and college athletes obviously have access to some steroids but they don't have access to the good stuff and, more importantly, they don't have access to trainers who can help them get the most from it.
Baseball GMs probably overrate pitcher velocity as well.
ReplyDelete"LLMFAO! Where exactly did he do that, again?"
ReplyDeleteWell, it *was* subtle.
"Sara Glashagel, a special education teacher at Antioch High School, is accused of tampering with the grades of 65 students, mostly football players. Her husband, the football coach, was not charged in the incident and is not being investigated."
ReplyDeleteNeither Nelson nor Welker are genetic freaks. They are just the lucky ones who somehow made it past the discriminatory walls that keep them out. The fact that neither of them had scholarship offers coming out of h.s. speaks volumes, if you think about it. How many other guys are out there like them, but who never got their chance to prove themselves?
ReplyDeleteThe mythical quality that black footballers exclusively have is "burst".
ReplyDeleteWhite are said to not possess "burst".
"Burst" is what separates the white players 4.5 40 from the black players 4.5 40.
A sport that pretends to be so scientific in it's player evaluations has conjured up a subjective trait that cannot be measured by machines.
But you can see why coaches might overrate fast receivers. What is more teachable: running better routes or running faster?
ReplyDeleteOr, what's more teachable, speed or conscientiousness?
What puzzles me is why there isn't a huge demand for punters. The WSJ had an article on Brad Wing from LSU, who can place the ball in the corners at the two/three yard line. That's huge, your offense stalls, you have a lead, quick-kick ala Red Sanders (third down), force a three and out and flip the field.
Right. What puzzles me is how the fans are so clueless that they don't know the first two guys you pick for your team are punter and place kicker. That place kickers dominate scoring. That punters dominate field position. Etc.
When Ben Johnson came along it was no longer viable to deny guys were juicing. Sprinters were now built like running backs, as compared to the slender type exemplified by Jesse Owens.
ReplyDeleteBut this is truly tiresome to read for the umpteenth time about that sneaky-fast white guy.
Of course speed matters, but the athletic bar that keeps most whites out of the top tier is the combination of speed and quickness that you get with fast-twitch muscle mass. And then we come back to juicing...
LOL at all the white people posting here.
ReplyDeleteThere is no conspiracy theory discriminating against white receivers who have good hands and run good routes. The NFL more than another segment in our economy is a free for all where coaches are willing to employ anyone who is willing to help them advance.
Anyone who watches their teams training camps will see any number of white receivers get paraded out who all run good routes but cannot even stick in the Canadian league. This does not reflect discrimination. This reflects an overall lack of physical talent in white people compared to blacks, with some white people as outliers.
Without affirmative action constraining the league, the NFL is clearly a black league as it should be. I thought people here were out to examine the truth in HBD, not just e a nutter for their own race.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI have been sitting here this fall, watching a lot of football on the television, with my baby son on my lap, and I've been thinking to myself that I'll be damned if I'm gonna let some negro accelerate to 20 or 25 MPH, lower its head, and use its helmet as a lethal weapon directed at my boy.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what toll that particular move takes. Most studies on this kind of thing were done before spearing became really popular with black players.
Still, I'd take the hits if it meant a Tom Brady salary.
Well, it *was* subtle.
ReplyDeleteSteve's first comment says no touchdown.
Agreeing with anon at 11:08 AM.
ReplyDeleteThere's no conspiracy. These teams are in it for the money, they can't afford to lose. The football pitch is an all out, merciless Darwinian struggle.
College football seems to say the same thing. The blackest teams completely dominate:
BCS rankings with number of black starters:
1. (18/22) LSU
2. (17/22) Alabama
3. (17/22) Arkansas
4. (16/22) Oklahoma State
5. (15/22) Virginia Tech
The NFL requires different skill sets, so the teams at the top are whiter. If you're white and you have the skills, you will be drafted sooner or later.
Btw, Whiskey and Svigor are right about kickers and punters. Managers would be wise to scout Europe for great kickers who aren't getting play time on their topflight teams.
"Sara Glashagel, a special education teacher at Antioch High School, is accused of tampering with the grades of 65 students, mostly football players. Her husband, the football coach, was not charged in the incident and is not being investigated."
ReplyDeleteJust another day in the US of A. Glad the cops aren't harassing the coach. We wouldn't want this to interfere with 'footbaw.'
Goooooo (insert mascot here)!!!
I wonder what toll that particular move takes.
ReplyDeleteWell it can't take much of a toll on the instigator, if he only ever had an IQ of 85 to begin with.
But it could potentially take a helluva toll on a quarterback with an IQ of, say, 130, who was on the receiving end of it.
If you wake up from a coma, and your IQ has been reduced from 85 to 77, then, well, big deal - who cares?
But if you wake up from a coma, and your IQ has been reduced from 135 to 95, then that's a disastrous tragedy.
OT: RIT Immigration Policy Lecture Series Brings Former Labor Secretary to Campus
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0nn_E7Y-I4 (1 of 5)
Speaking of Sandra Day O'Connor as Cougar/MILF in the Riggins scandal, check out the coach's wife in the cheating scandal.
ReplyDeleteHoly Cow - if I were a high school senior on her husband's team, then I'd be all over her like white on rice.
Sheesh.
Smokin'.
Jody, I'm looking through Rivals and Scout and all the talented White receivers have scholarship offers. If a White receiver burns up the high school league stats, he'll play college football, no question about it.
ReplyDelete"there's nothing special about him,"
ReplyDeleteYeah, other than the fact that he is big, fast coordinated, with a good vertical, had an all-American senior season and was the third receiver selected in the draft, (look it up) he's average.
There were two black receivers selected before Jordy Nelson in 2008, and THIRTY including DeSean Jackson, Mario Manningham, Eddie Royal, Harry Douglas, Andre Caldwell, Pierre Garcson, Steve Johnson, Chaz Schillens, Adrian Arrington and Earl Bennett who are still, productive to very good NFL receivers, selected after him, so Nelson was slightly undervalued, and you guys are, as usual whining eunuchs.
Hasely Crawford, 1976 Olympic 100-meter champ, is an example of what Steve means on body size. He looked like a fullback, or at least a 1976 fullback.
ReplyDeletehttp://legacy.guardian.co.tt/archives/2008-08-18/news6.html
"t the time Jason Seehorn was a Giants CB, he was the fastest man on the team and its best athlete. He made a few memorable plays, but, overall, wasn't as dominant a DB as you might have expected, given his gifts."
ReplyDeleteSehorn was actully a pro-bowl caliber player until he tore up his knee in year two. After that, the enduring memory is of him stumbling around getting beat in the superbowl.
There's no conspiracy. These teams are in it for the money, they can't afford to lose.
ReplyDeleteIt's possible for that to be true, and for it also to be true that teams might have an irrational bias against white players. Or at least an irrational bias in favor of black players.
And of course, the great majority of NFL teams do lose, a lot.
The mythical quality that black footballers exclusively have is "burst".
ReplyDeleteThe black guys I played with used to call this "black speed," sometimes amended to "black ups," "black strength," or "black quicks."
Similarly, if someone had an exceptionally smooth jump-shot, he was said to have "white stroke."
Anonymous from 12:03 PM again:
ReplyDeleteStill looking through the scouting sites. If you're a good White receiver, you get to play college ball, no question about it. Unfortunately, many can't keep the stats up once they get to NCAA games.
I mean, where all these mythical White receivers who are being spurned by colleges and the NFL? Throw out some names, dammit. There may be one or two who slip through the cracks, but there are probably more talented Black linebackers in the South who don't get a scholarship for one reason or another. It's just the nature of the game.
Do you really think a struggling team like the Colts or the Browns would hesitate in signing up some overlooked, White secret weapons? Do you really think a mediocre college would hesitate to sign up some star White athlete who the big boys overlooked? Why wouldn't virtually entirely White teams like Air Force and BYU snap up these diamonds in the rough?
Let's all just shut up and enjoy the game. Don't see me whining about every punter/kicker being White.
Btw, Whiskey and Svigor are right about kickers and punters. Managers would be wise to scout Europe for great kickers who aren't getting play time on their topflight teams.
ReplyDeleteSo maybe the teams are an all-out Darwinian struggle, but that doesn't seem to be what's going on with the fans. Otherwise, how can they all denigrate kickers the way they do? Winning seems to take a second seat to strutting, at least in the fan culture.
Paul Kersey's obsessed.
ReplyDeleteApparently he was cut from bball team and that's what drives his obsession.
I know this guy. If you try to put him in chains, he resists. If you lock him up, he wants out. If you beat him down, he defends himself. If you leave the door open, he escapes. No matter what you do, the guy just fights back every time.
You might say he's obsessed.
Possession, West Coast style offenses need to get the ball out in three seconds ...
ReplyDeleteWhiskey, according to Steve Young the West Coast Offense isn't being used anymore.
LOL at all the white people posting here.
ReplyDeleteThere is no conspiracy theory discriminating against white receivers who have good hands and run good routes.
It's interesting, how quickly you strawmanize the arguments made, into "conspiracy theory." Interesting beyond how maladroit "conspiracy theory" is here when simple omission gets you the far superior "conspiracy," I mean. More like, interesting how someone who's got so much riding on The Narrative of white conspiracies to oppress "minorities" is so dismissive of someone else getting a couple farthings worth out of the same tool; right to the point of denigrating the tool itself, almost.
Anyway, I think Kersey makes a pretty good case here.
Blacks (and others) have a chance to legitimize themselves and the Narrative (to which they owe a great deal) and gain moral standing, but no takers? Interesting.
I'm a Southern man and I've played sports with and against Black folks all my life. When I was 12 and played juniorhigh football against 15 year old Black guys, they were more physicaly mature than me. Blacks are usually behind in school, and often by two years. The result to schoolastic sports is Whites are almost always competing against older Blacks. This may make it seem like Blacks physicaly mature faster, but I don't belive it's so.
ReplyDeleteSteves' article said fast White kids looked like wippets. In my experience the fast Black kids looked like absolute waifs. Prior to the 1960s the fastest men and women were usually White. The Black sprinters were usually thiner than the Whites. And then the Black folks bulked up, started winning, and did all this exactly when steroids exploded into widespread use. Do you think that was a coincidence?
Baseball GMs probably overrate pitcher velocity as well.
ReplyDeleteI get it, you were released in A-ball because your fastball was only 88, right? This is one of the great baseball canards, that pitcher speed is overrated. If what you mean is that speed without movement is easily overcome, then fine. Otherwise, realize that both Maddux and Glavine made the bigs with 92-mph fastballs. Then they developed the late movement that offset later loss of speed.
Black fellas are usually thin or fat, rarely even a medium build, unless they are on roids. And folks, Black guys love their steroids, often even more than pot or beer. I've seen too many of these folks roided up in highschool, college, or even forty year olds just so they can walk around in a sleeveless shirt. I can't believe for even a second that most Black proffesional athletes are'nt juiced. They are and it's usually easy to recognize, lord knows I've seen enough people do it in person.
ReplyDeleteI've seen'em on the roids an off. The difference is usually pretty obvious. For example steroids tend to create artificial springiness, while HGH causes extremely robot like machanics.
Don't try to tell me that Whites are just as likely to use PEDs' we're not. In highshool I almost always received the same response from Black friends for not using roids"man, you white people are crazy". These folks see non-ped use like they see rock climbing or deap sea diving, insane. From their point of view, if you want to be an athlete and something will help you do it, why wouldn't you. They don't see it as cheating at all.
By contrast, most White athlete wouldn't use steroids even if told to. Have you ever heard the the expressions "white athletes don't work hard enough"? Or my personal favortite "Whites are'nt willing to do what is necesary to win"? What do you think was deemed necesary to win?
ReplyDeleteBefore anyone goes into talk about drug testing think about this. Do you HONESTLY believe they WANT to catch Black drug cheats? Nothing makes your typical Liberal or Neocon feel more warm and fluffy inside than Black athletic achievement. Also consider the legality of the issue. In America we have these laws called Civil Rights. And all other developed countries have similar laws. The fact is that stringent drug testing of anyone who isn't White is a non-starter. It's not even legal and it's not going to happen.
And even with PEDs most of the Black players in the NFL and for that matter the NBA are just plain bad. Perhaps, because of lack of experience playing sports, many of you just don't have any ability to judge athletic talent. Or perhaps you've simply heard Black athletic, White not so many times that you automaticly see what you expect to see. Thats just sad, untill you start ridiculing folks who simply point the laughably obvious fact of how Whites are oppressed in mainstream sports.The bilnd don't go around telling the sighted what things look like, neither should you.
There are five times as many Whites as Blacks in America, and atleast three times as many gifted White athletes. That's obvious to anyone who bothers to look and think.
ReplyDeleteBlack folks are 12% of the population. It would clearly be impressive if they acounted for 25% of football or basketball players.
But aparently thats not enough for anti-white sheep. And as for White wide receivers, the college class of 2010 had around thirty White receivers with clear NFL caliber talent. That's especially impressive considering how Whites are ignored by colleges.
Food for thougt, the fastest Black sprinter I've ever seen, whom I'm certain was clean ran 100 meters in10.07 seconds. As I said before, it's usually pretty easy for me to recognize drug cheats because I've been around so many of them.
Almost immediately, you'd get rid of all the bizarre specialists - both the 5'8" 140lb guy with the 4.10 forty, and the 6'7" 380lb tub of lard with the 7.0 forty - and, instead, most of the guys on the field would start to look a lot more like 6'1"/6'2"/6'3" and 200lbs/210lbs/220lbs.
ReplyDeleteI suppose you'd get something closer to rugby, where there's less variation in physical build.
Jody, How is WR the most discriminated against position when there hasn't been a white cornerback since Jason Sehorn and before him.....??? Sehorn led, yes led the Giants to the Superbowl where he was beaten for the first TD by yep you guessed it Brandon Stokely.
ReplyDeleteI'm sympathetic to what you're saying but how do explain the CB situation ??
It bears mentioning that part of Jordy's success is that he is playing with Rodgers who is playing QB better than anyone has ever played it. That is a position that is becoming so important in the NFL that teams without one whould start using 2 or 3 draft picks trying to find one. The brothers have not done well here as Vick is now not one of the top 15 QBs in the NFL.
Dan in DC
Of course the NFL does social experiments! Who doesn't remember the call for black QBs and coaches? When have you seen a white RB get the time to develop that many great-black-hope QB busts have been allowed? Yeah, Cordell Stewart, Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb, JaMarcus Russell, Daunte Culpepper etc. deserved the fruitless years to develop because there was reason to believe that they were Elway material.
ReplyDeleteAnd you can forget about natural abilities, because most NFL players are on some sort of PEDs. If you don't believe that, just look at the size difference between players now and forty years ago. Nutrition and weights can only do so much.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Kirk Gibson who went about 6'3" and 220 pounds.
ReplyDeleteHe was a collegiate All-American receiver at Michigan State and I believe he ran 4.2 or 4.3 in the forty yard dash.
The thing you notice about Nelson immediately is that he is built a lot like an athletic black WR, tall, long legged and yet quite muscular, like an older Christophe Lemaitre, the white guy who is the French and European sprint champion. Very different from Don Beebe and Tim Dwight who were short and stocky but with very good, but not great speed. I know Dwight only became a track guy because of football, he was just a football guy with speed but he was convinced to try out for the track team. So in that respect he was different from Nelson who was a track, football, and basketball star in high school.
ReplyDeleteMost fast white WR's the last few decades have resembled Beebe and Dwight more than Nelson. Nelson simply has another gear particularly in the open field, he already has three TD's of over 80 yards since late last season, probably the first white WR to have a bunch of long TD's since Roger Carr in the late 1970's. Carr had a 90 yard reception in 1975, and at least two more of over 75 yards, and lead the NFL in receiving yards in 1976. Not surprisingly, Nelson is built a lot like Carr, who was 6-3 and 200 lbs. Dwight's problem was that he was only 5-8 and was built like a bodybuilder, he did fine with the 100 and 200 meters in college, but when he once ran the 4x400 meter relay, he visibly ran out of gas, because of his short stature. As short fast guys age, adding additional weight for strength purposes like in football causes them to probably risk more injury and slow themselves down prematurely. Wes Welker has nothing like Dwight's top end speed, but he is having a longer and more productive career because he didn't try to pack on upper body strength.
Offense wins games, defense wins championships.
ReplyDeleteSvigor, I haven't noticed any overt denigration of kickers or punters.
ReplyDelete@Vivaldi4
ReplyDeleteParticipation in athletics was more challenging for black pre-1960.
"Well, it *was* subtle."
ReplyDeleteOh, yeah, now I see the "subtlety." Quite serreptitious Steve, just as subtle as the invisible font in which I'm writing the rest of this 3 paragraph post...
.
Why doesn't "Paul Kersey" ever focus on the owners and managers of these sports leagues - like David Stern, Bud Selig, Daniel Stern, etc. when criticizing the leagues? Why does he only talk about the players?
ReplyDelete"There's no conspiracy. These teams are in it for the money, they can't afford to lose. The football pitch is an all out, merciless Darwinian struggle."
ReplyDeleteNo, actually Bro, I believe there is a white Walter Payotn and Deion Sanders riding a tractor in every cornfield in Iowa, who the great 2.5 million square foot synagogue under the streets of Manhattan has forbidden white coaches to sign, because he will destroy the "caste system" they have spent the last 100 years constructing!
NOW THAT WAS SUBTLE!
Now because most of you prove day in and day out that you are Barackian Communists, I will explain the free-market system to you once again:
Football teams are businesses, their intention is to hire people who win games because winning games puts MONEY in the owner's pockets. Therefore, as someone in the later section of posts so eloquently stated, they hire the people that that thing will best help them win games.
No, here is the sequential issue: Professional sports are dominated by what has worked in the past. This works to the great disadvantage of TALENTED white football players, and football coaches and talent evaluators simply haven't seen many of them. Therefore, a white football player with all of the measurables, such as a Nelson, is UNDERVALUED not discriminated against, UNDERVALUED at the highest level of play.
As I stated earlier, Nelson was the #3 receiver picked of 33 in the draft. He is better than the two who went before him, but there was NO star receiver (or even first rounder) in his draft class. He is playing well because he is SUPPOSED to play well. He's a high draft pick.
UNDERVALUING means that a white guy who should have been recruited by Alabama gets recruited by Mississsippi. One who should have gone BCS, goes non-BCS D1, one who should have been FBS goes FCS, etc. But talent, in the long run, wins out. The best players find their way to the Big show, because, again, they pay people a lot of money to make proper decisions regarding personnel.
Another thing that you do not understand is that regarding white guys, it's not the color of the player's skin, ITS THE COLOR OF THE PLAYER'S SKIN HE PLAYS AGAINST. Nelson was lightly recruited because he played in Kansas against white guys. Coaches simply didn't feel comfortable extrapolating his talent to the type of players he would face in College. Sam McGuffie and Rex Burkhead played in Texas, they both got BCS scholarships to run the football.
You're welcome in advance.
" This is one of the great baseball canards, that pitcher speed is overrated."
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely right, there are a lot of things that can be adjusted for in baseball, but the hitter having less time to react to the pitch is not one of them. This is also why they favor tall pitchers; a 6'5 guy is releasing the ball closer to the plate than a 5'10 guy...less time for the hitter to react.
Here's the link to the wikipedia version Steve references:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jordy_Nelson&diff=prev&oldid=461868295#Green_Bay_Packers
Black QBs? What about Cam Newton?
ReplyDeleteI suppose you'd get something closer to rugby, where there's less variation in physical build.
ReplyDeleteExactly - without unlimited substitution, you'd get an emphasis on all-around athletes - guys with just the right combination of speed, stamina, strength, and SMARTS [because without unlimited substitution, the coaches on the sidelines couldn't send in subs to call the next play, ergo the guys out there on the field would have to think on their feet and CALL THEIR OWN PLAYS - both on offense and on defense.]
Svigor, it's no accident that during Belichick's entire tenure with the Patriots he's had 2 placekickers: future Hall of Famer Adam Viniteri and the strong-legged Steven Gostkowski. They would probably have only 1 Super Bowl instead of 3 if they had employed an average placekicker.
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:48, Tom Brady doesn't even make as much money as his wife!
ReplyDeleteTruth, the "they will do anything to win, and are therefore colorbling" argument is falsified by basic observation. Please explain the career of Peyton Hillis if "winning is colorblind".
ReplyDeleteThe idea that football at any level is a "pure meritocracy" is just silly and naive. Guys get benched all the time for no other reason than the coach doesn't like them. Then count all the guys who don't get to showcase their talents because they are "in the wrong system".
White athletes have to face the added burden of blatant discrimination which simply keeps them off the field. Welker, Hillis, Woodhead, they all exhibit the same pattern at the pro level.
It starts in college recruiting, see for example a detailed analysis here: http://religionnewsblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/racial-discrimination-in-football.html
Your claim the "winning is colorblind" is simply counter-factual. Whites with equivalent accomplishments and stats simply do not receive the same opportunities. This is factually established.
Still looking through the scouting sites. If you're a good White receiver, you get to play college ball, no question about it. Unfortunately, many can't keep the stats up once they get to NCAA games.
ReplyDeleteDude, Jordy Nelson had to WALK ON the Kansas State team as a DB. He was a 6'3 guy who ran a 10.63 100m (Randy Moss coming out of HS ran a 10.94 100m and was praised to the skies for his speed and athleticism at the time) yet had to WALK ON. Case closed, dude.
"Football teams are businesses, their intention is to hire people who win games because winning games puts MONEY in the owner's pockets. Therefore, as someone in the later section of posts so eloquently stated, they hire the people that that thing will best help them win games."
ReplyDeleteEven the horrible teams make money with revenue sharing. Just look at the rise in cost for a franchise over the years if you think that winning is the only objective for NFL owners. NFL teams don't have to win to make money or gain in value.
http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/25/most-valuable-nfl-teams-business-sports-football-valuations-10_slide_2.html
"Truth, the "they will do anything to win, and are therefore colorbling" argument is falsified by basic observation."
ReplyDeleteYou don't read very well do you? Why don't you read my post again, and if you then require more clarity on what I wrote, ask me. I'll be happy to write about Jordy, Peyton Hillis or anyone else.
For those of you who point out that the top ranked teams in college football are mostly Black, look who they're beating. Yep, other teams who are mostly Black. If you believe the fact that good Black players defeat bad Black players proves that few whites can play, you're simply not thinking.
ReplyDelete"Dude, Jordy Nelson had to WALK ON the Kansas State team as a DB. He was a 6'3 guy who ran a 10.63 100m (Randy Moss coming out of HS ran a 10.94 100m and was praised to the skies for his speed and athleticism at the time) yet had to WALK ON. Case closed, dude."
ReplyDeleteThey use the 40 yard dash, not the 100m in football scouting for a reason: The damn football field is not even 100m long!
Yes, as I said earlier, Jordie Nelson was UNDERVALUED. 10.63 is fast, but not head turning, and even after his junior year he was running 4.5 40s....
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=12364&draftyear=2008&genpos=
...Randy Moss ran 4.25 40s and both Lou Holz and Bobby Bowden said the was the best HS player they ever saw. So what? he dicked around jogging against some white boys in the W.V. 100 meter final.
Jordy Nelson was an average player as a freshman and sophomore...
http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jordy-nelson-1.html
He had an outstanding jr. year catching balls from an NFL first round QB (who, by they way, only came to Kansas State because they were the only team that did not recruit him to play defensive end.)
Randy moss was a Heisman contender who didn't play as a junior. Where's the comparison?
http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/randy-moss-1.html
Justin, Felix...bravo, great comments. But I would like to point out that it starts well before college recruiting. Here in the South it starts the first time you go out with the other kids to play kick ball. There is usually some older kid or "humanitarian" mom who takes it upon themselves to decide who gets to be the star. They feel really proud of themselves for cheating kids.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever seen a group of White kids with one Black playing football in the front yard? Usually the White kids wom't even attempt to tackle the Black. It has been engrained in them since birth to show "respect" to "minorities". And certainly do not use physical force, thats EVIL.
Unfortunately, around here it's cradle to grave.
Where I live, american football is a game for people who want to say to themselves that they are athletes, but can´t cut it in the village soccer team. Also, our universities do not have any sports scholarships, or paid sports coaches. Almost all university sports over here are intramural, and athletic ability counts for exactly zilch in college admission. Actually, only grade averages and a SAT-like test count for college admission, there is no ethnic component to it whatsoever. Our college admission is entirely rules-driven, there are no fudge factors in it. All athletes must submit to unannounced PED tests, and if caught cheating will get banned for 2 years (first time) or life (subsequent times). Civil rights laws can NOT protect anyone from unannounced, mandatory PED testing.
ReplyDeleteOther countries have their pros compared to USA.
PED use is rife in "white" sports as well. Bike racing rivals body building in a better living through chemistry attitude. XC skiing and other endurance/aerobic sports too.
ReplyDeleteWelker was a walk on too.
ReplyDelete"College football seems to say the same thing. The blackest teams completely dominate:
ReplyDeleteBCS rankings with number of black starters:
1. (18/22) LSU
2. (17/22) Alabama
3. (17/22) Arkansas
4. (16/22) Oklahoma State
5. (15/22) Virginia Tech"
-
Let's take a look at the 6-10 on the BCS rankings:
6. Stanford 8 black, 14 white
7. Boise State 7 black, 15 white
8. Houston 17 black, 5 white
9. Oklahoma 16 black, 6 white
10. Oregon 13 black, 9 white
There are also a number of other teams in the top 25 starting 10+ whites: Wisconsin, Nebraska, TCU, Michigan State
"Have you ever seen a group of White kids with one Black playing football in the front yard? Usually the White kids wom't even attempt to tackle the Black. It has been engrained in them since birth to show "respect" to "minorities". And certainly do not use physical force, thats EVIL."
ReplyDeleteYeah, and it's been "engrained" for black people to play sports and not study, I guess that's why blacks are underrepresented in STEM fields, right?
Let's take a look at the 6-10 on the BCS rankings:
ReplyDelete6. Stanford 8 black, 14 white
7. Boise State 7 black, 15 white
8. Houston 17 black, 5 white
9. Oklahoma 16 black, 6 white
10. Oregon 13 black, 9 white
There are also a number of other teams in the top 25 starting 10+ whites: Wisconsin, Nebraska, TCU, Michigan State
Stanford and Boise State are good teams, granted. However, even with the mighty Andrew Luck, they can't break into the top 5. Btw, how many blacks are there in Idaho? Even lily white states realize they need black athletic power to win.
Hey Anonomous, exactly how do ya define rife? Exceptions prove rules. The cyclist and skiers who've been caught were just sneaking around and using a tiney bit here and there. And do you know why they were caught? It was because the drug testers were actually TRYING to catch them. Unlike your beloved Black roided freaks who look like bodybuilders. But you just keep believing it's us evil White folks who do most of the cheating. Yep, just keep hating, you're good at it.
ReplyDeletere mike vick: it's impossible for a qb with run-first psychology to be consistent in the NFL.
ReplyDeleterun-first qb's are always getting lower body injuries also.
the program of removing Whitey from the qb position by reengineering the game will be pushed even harder. they will probably enact rule changes to kill the pocket passer
Even lily white states realize they need black athletic power to win.
ReplyDeleteYou may be right, but since testing your theory is illegal...
Randy Moss's 10.94 100 meters was a personal best. That equates to a 40 yard dash of about 4.58. That was in highschool, coming out of college he could run in the 4.4s. That 4.25 claim is imaginary. In the NFL Randy could easily outrun most cornerbacks because their 40 times are also imaginary. Nelson is faster than Moss was.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see what Nelson could do as a fulltime starter, but it doesn't look as though that's going to happen. But all you Anti-Whites can go on pretending it's all real and fair if thats what makes you happy.
Apparently using blatant slander like 'whiteboys' and 'lily white' is OK. But, caliing out these hatefull commentors by name isn't. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteSo, To whom it may concern. White kids are bullied into showing deference to other races, this aplys in sports the same as everywhere else. To deny this is justifying the oppression of children.
To whom it may concern. Most majority White college football teams stil have Blacks at the socalled 'speed' positions. It is these Blacks, generally slow, who are responsible for losses to majority Black teams. It is yet another example of good Black players defeating bad Black players. And the White athletes get stuck with the blame.
To whom it may concern. I am perfectly aware that a higher percentage of Blacks are fast. I've SEEN it. I'm also aware that there are five times as many Whites as BLacks in the country. And from my observation there are about three times as many fast Whites. That is what I have seen, not a theory.
ReplyDelete“If I had to guess, I would bet that on average whites peak in speed later and then slow up earlier.”
ReplyDeleteThe later peak probably has to do with differences in maturation rate. I’ve also noticed that blacks seem to hold-up (i.e. age) better orthopedically than whites. It’s well established that they have higher bone density than whites and suffer less at later ages from osteoporosis. Does anyone know of any studies about the relative quality of their connective tissues (ligaments, tendons, etc.)? Interestingly, blacks have greater elasticity in their muscle-tendon complexes, i.e., they have relatively longer tendons (which are more elastic than muscles – their tendon elasticity is about the same as whites) and their muscles are more elastic. This means that they recycle more energy with each stride and are more efficient. This would seem to imply that whites would have to generate more muscular force when sprinting to get the same results, which may be a factor in causing more injuries and leading whites to burn out quicker. I wonder if greater elasticity and less dissipation of energy also act like a shock-absorber, causing less wear and tear?
I’ve also noticed that, unlike their physical frames, blacks’ organ systems seem to give out on them sooner on average than whites’. Not only do they generally have higher rates of cardiovascular, respiratory, liver, kidney, sugar metabolism (diabetes), and senility/dementia, but these ailments also seem to afflict them earlier on average.
“I would also guess that with whites, sprinting speed correlates more with a slender build than it does with blacks.”
I’ve noticed this too, but I’d say you find three types of fast whites: short and slender (e.g., soccer player Michael Owen - you don’t find many of them playing American football), tall and slender (Lemaitre, Wariner, Nelson, etc.), and short and stocky (Dwight, Woodhead, Welker, etc.). What you don’t find much among whites, but do among blacks, is tall and big people who are fast.
“I suppose you'd get something closer to rugby, where there's less variation in physical build.”
ReplyDeleteYou obviously have no idea of what rugby players are like. What you don’t have are fatties because rugby players have to run for 80 minutes. That said, there is a huge variation in the physical types of the various positions in professional rugby. Backs tend to be built similarly to American football defensive backs, receivers and halfbacks, but usually weigh a little less because they have to be fitter. Front row forwards are relatively short and massive. Most are under 6’ because leverage in the scrums is important (ideally with the tight head prop being tallest, the loose head prop shortest and the hooker in between) and the props usually weigh in the 240-260lb. range and the hooker a bit lighter (210-235lbs.). Second row forwards are very tall (around 6’7”) because they have to jump for the line outs and weigh around 240-260lbs. Flank forwards are the most athletic forwards and are built like football outside LBs and 8-men are usually built like tight ends (though both tend to run a bit lighter than their NFL equivalents because they have to run for 80 minutes).
“The fasted white guy I ever met was built like a Rhino. His first 5 meters weren't necessarily the fastest but after that you had better get out of his way. He would have been an amazing football running back and a good blocking back…”
Not if his first 5 meters weren’t great. RB is more about acceleration than pure speed.
"I've already explained the socalled faster maturation rates."
ReplyDeleteWhile you are correct that blacks are more likely to be retained in school, it is well established in the medical literature that they DO mature faster than whites. This is a double whammy on white athletes and IMO partially explains why they are underrepresented in many sports that start recruiting early like football and basketball.
"And if we Whites slow up sooner why do we dominate masters athletics? The bulky fast Blacks are usually obvious drug cheats, live with it."
I'm sure you're correct about blacks being more likely to dope than whites (lack of future orientation). The long term effects of PED use would not be conducive to still being competitive by the time one reaches the masters division. Also, lack of future orientation means one is less likely to stay fit and observe a proper diet as one ages. Additionally, middle aged blacks are more likely to be suffering from diabetes and heart disease related problems.
Right. What puzzles me is how the fans are so clueless that they don't know the first two guys you pick for your team are punter and place kicker. That place kickers dominate scoring. That punters dominate field position. Etc.
ReplyDeleteI forget how many Field Goals Sebastian Janikowski made against the Bears but I will go with 6.
The commentators were saying thta in a punt situation Shane Lechler would not be able to avoid giving the ball to the Bears returner who was established as a big threat.
One 80 yard punt later that discussion was academic.
I like how instead of calling us african Americans you keep calling us blacks smh
ReplyDelete