The 2010 Census said:
“Hispanic or Latino” refers to a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race
Okay, so Brazilians are from "South or Central America," but they aren't from "Spanish culture or origin." There's no logical AND in the definition that says they have to be "Spanish culture" but it's kind of implied.
So, it's a mess. But, after all, there are only 195,000,000 people in Brazil, so why should the U.S. government bother to make up its mind before even more get here? After all, we can all predict that once enough Brazilians are in the United States to make up a sizable political bloc and they realize the advantages of being a protected class, they will be definitively defined as entitled to all the preferences currently going to Latinos. That's how things work in the U.S. As Christopher Caldwell said in a slightly different context:
"One moves swiftly and imperceptibly from a world in which affirmative action can't be ended because its beneficiaries are too weak to a world in which it can't be ended because its beneficiaries are too strong."
Update: I found an essay from the always helpful Pew Hispanic Center on "Who Is Hispanic?" Basically, it comes down to shamelessness:
Here’s a quick primer on how the Census Bureau approach works.
Q. I immigrated to Phoenix from Mexico. Am I Hispanic?
A. You are if you say so.
Q. My parents moved to New York from Puerto Rico. Am I Hispanic?
A. You are if you say so.
Q. My grandparents were born in Spain but I grew up in California. Am I Hispanic?
A. You are if you say so.
Q. I was born in Maryland and married an immigrant from El Salvador. Am I Hispanic?
A. You are if you say so.
Q. My mom is from Chile and my dad is from Iowa. I was born in Des Moines. Am I Hispanic?
A. You are if you say so.
Q. I was born in Argentina but grew up in Texas. I don’t consider myself Hispanic. Does the Census count me as an Hispanic?
A. Not if you say you aren’t.
(No, I didn't make that up. Let me take a moment once again to salute the Pew Hispanic Center, which is about ten times better than they would have to be.)
At present, not many Brazilians in the U.S. say they are Hispanic/Latino. That would be a good reason to emphasize the word "Hispanic" over "Latino," since the former probably turns off Brazilians. We are not miserable Hispanics, we are proud Lusitanics!
Anyway, I bring Brazilians up because the Economist had an article on race in Brazil, "Affirming a Divide." Whether or not Brazilians are Hispanics, they share a lot of cultural traits with Latinos: namely, they are racist as hell. It's just not old American-style one drop anti-black racism. Instead of a color line, they have a color continuum, which allows practically everybody to discriminate enthusiastically against somebody a little darker or woolier-haired than themselves. You can even hope to rise up the color continuum. Ambitious Brazilians can get their hair relaxed, stay out of the sun, maybe use one of those scary-sounding skin bleachers like Sammy Sosa did, and, voila, they are whiter than they used to be. Similarly, if sisters can be racially different in Brazil is one is fairer and straighter-haired. And if not you, then perhaps you can marry a fairer person so your children will be fairer. And even if you can't do that, perhaps one of your children will look whiter just due to random genetic luck. So, there is always hope for social advancement!
Not surprisingly, this works as a pretty effective Divide and Conquer strategy for the whites who run Brazil. Thus, only over the last decade has the Brazilian government begun gingerly experimenting with race and class-based affirmative action, and still does very little in the way of suing for discrimination.
Also, not surprisingly, it's easy to cheat the new quota system in Brazil: get a tan, get your hair permed, and maybe you'll get in under a quota. They are supposed to have panels to inspect people who claim to be black enough to qualify for a quota. That would make a fun Brazilian reality TV / makeover show: You could follow two groups: a bunch of blackish people trying to lighten up to get past the velvet rope at a fancy nightclub, and a bunch of whitish people trying to darken down to win quota spots at a university.
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108 comments:
My ex-wife's family is as whitebread as you can get. Her sister married a guy named Rodriguez, but his ancestors came to Louisiana with Galvez in 1777. His family is old-money Southern. Yet their lily-white, blue-eyed, blonde daughters get racial preferences in college admissions and qualify for scholarships because they check the "hispanic" box.
Are sephardic jews "hispanic"?
Many Brazilians can understand spanish and even speak without much instruction beacause is very familiar to portuguese.
After Portuguese and Italian, Spanish is the third-higher ascentry of White Brazilians, ahead of German and Polish.
Brazil have the biggest population of Christian Middle-Easterners (they are considerated White here)in the World, mostly Lebanese.
Brazil speaks Portuguese, a language derived from Latin, so technically Brazilians are Latins or Latinos - I know the original Latins were Indo-European tribesmen from Latium in central Italy, but that is digressing...
So the same reason why Mexicans and Colombians are called "Latins" applies to Brazilians, since both Spanish and Portuguese are Romance languages. It is an arbitrary and imprecise choice of word to call those from Iberian countries, but the exact same logic applies to Brazil. So yes, Brazilians are Latins but not Hispanics, since the word "Hispanic" derives from "Hispania", which is the name the ancient Romans gave to their province of Spain and not Portugal. Brazilians: non-Hispanic Latinos.
But you don't need to worry about Brazilians immigrating to the U.S en masse: Brazil's economy has been doing very, very well for the past 15 years, and Brazil has recently surpassed Great Britain to become the World's sixth largest GDP. Brazilians are not going anywhere. Just last year, Brazil created 1.5 million jobs. Also, Brazil has a very strong agricultural sector AND a pretty strong technology/industry sector as well, so neither educated or uneducated Brazilians need to immigrate. Also, Brazilians tend to be open and gregarious, and they find the coldness and rigidity of Anglo-Saxon cultures almost unbearable. Most Brazilians who do immigrate to the U.S do so only temporarily. They want to make money and then get the hell out back to the sunshine and friendliness of Brazil. Brazil has improved by leaps and bounds, and even violent crime is decreasing exponentially. Brazil is poised to surpass France and become the World's fifth largest GDP by 2015. And besides the huge GDP`growth, unlike the U.S, Brazil has very little debt and a huge trade surpluss. Overall, Brazil is in much, much better shape economically than the U.S even though the U.S is still obviously more affluent, and Brazilians have no reasons to emigrate.
"Whether or not Brazilians are Hispanics, they share a lot of cultural traits with Latinos: namely, they are racist as hell."
This sure made me chuckle.
Yes, yes we are. Imagine my surprise and dismay when I immigrated to the US only to find out that people actually BOASTED about having Indian blood.
Is Gisele Bundchen Latino (or Latina)?
More generally, as people in South America can have a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds - e.g. Germans in Brazil, Italians and Welsh (!) in Argentina, and Japanese in Chile and Peru - do they all count as Latino on 'cultural' grounds? Was the writer W. H. Hudson, born in Argentina to an English father, and a notable naturalist and (English) writer, Latino? Or are there any implicit limits to 'Latinicity'?
Brazilian:"Brazil have the biggest population of Christian Middle-Easterners (they are considerated White here)in the World, mostly Lebanese."
They are considered White in the USA as well (cf Danny Thomas, John Sununu, Ralph Nader, etc).
Rule of thumb in the USA is that Christian and Jewish Middle Easterners and North Africans are White, while Muslims are "other."
I can never keep straight whether Brazilians are supposed to be Hispanic/Latino or not -- and therefore a legally protected class eligible for affirmative action and disparate impact discrimination lawsuits.
I thought the rule was that everybody other than white English speaking males are a legally protected class and eligible for affirmative action and disparate impact discrimination lawsuits.
Steve, re: affirmative action in Brazil and the race-inspection panels, don't miss this article in Brazil's "Veja" magazine.
http://veja.abril.com.br/060607/p_082.shtml
You should Google Translate it, but the gist is this: a pair of mulatto identical twins was inspected by the affirmative action panel of the University of Brasilia, and one of them was deemed black (and eligible), the other white (uneligible). IDENTICAL twins. You can see their picture in the link.
It can't get more ridiculous than that.
You are if you say so.
I thought you were joking, but it actually does say that.
Are you sure you didn't link to something like pewhispanic.theonion.com?!?
Yikes.
More generally, as people in South America can have a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds - e.g. Germans in Brazil, Italians and Welsh (!) in Argentina, and Japanese in Chile and Peru - do they all count as Latino on 'cultural' grounds?
You're not paying attention, YES!
The crazy thing is how "other Spanish culture" neatly throws Spain into the Hispanic/Latino AA pool.
My friend in college told me rather unexpectedly "I'm Hispanic" her voice quivering with the emotion of 1000s of years of facing discrimination by the white man.
Of course everyone thought she and I were sisters (I'm a proud pale white girl). Furthermore, her basis for being hispanic was because her Grandparents from Ireland had gone to Puerto Rico first for like 5 years before moving to the U.S. mainland.
I'm pretty sure that's how she got into college considering she was a slacker who couldn't do jack shit.
Anyways...and Yes Brazil is a miserable country where race matters More than even here.
Interracial Marriage needs to end now---*Gives Dirty Look to DailyMail 1 in 12 Article*
"Basically, it comes down to shamelessness"
Up until now people have mostly accurately self identified themselves, though I can see this changing. We'll likely, as you I believe have stated, find use in the Brazilian classifications for race.
"Yes, yes we are. Imagine my surprise and dismay when I immigrated to the US only to find out that people actually BOASTED about having Indian blood."
North American Indian blood though(and usually < 1%), theres a bit of a difference.
Nixon legacy: aff-act for Hispanics.
Reagan legacy: amney for illegals.
Since we all use Latin alphabet and many Latin-derived words, we are all Latinos.
I saw VIVA ZAPATA 10 times and ate a lot of tacos. Am I Latino if I say so?
I got straight A's in Spanish and my favorite character is Speedy Gonzalez. Am I Latino?
Brazilians in Brazil all want to be considered white, if they are close enough to pass
"I got straight A's in Spanish and my favorite character is Speedy Gonzalez. Am I Latino?"
You got straight A's. Of course you're not Latino.
"You got straight A's. Of course you're not Latino."
Of course I am, because I'm also Jewish! ;)> -)---
We've got plenty of Brazilians in MA, and none of them want anything to do with Hispanics.
A rule of thumb for everyone wanting to tell the difference between mestizo Brazilian and Hispanic women: both wear size 6 jeans, but they actually fit the Brazilian girls...
FYI, here is an international organization called the Latin Union which consists of countries who speak a romance language. Obviously Brazil and other Portuguese areas are included along with the Spanish nations. But I was surprised to find Romania too.
Some other observations, Brazil is a latino nation, but it is not hispanic. You might find this interesting that the largest single group of people in Latin America (Brazil included) are Europeans at 36%. Of course due to our immigration patterns, most Americans beleive latins to be mestizos.
Finally, I do find it odd that if two Italian brothers emigrated to the New World, one to the US and the other to Venezuela, and they each had a son, if the latter's son came to America he would be an hispanic and eligible for affirmative action over his cousin who shares very similar DNA. Think Marco Scutaro.
When the British finally sell out the Falkland Islanders, will they become Hispanic with a stroke of the pen?
According to Her Majesty's Government, anyone in the world can be British by the flourish of a Civil Servant's wand so conversely I can't see why not.
Uruguay is another interesting one for the whole Latino identity topic. Take a look at their roster during the last World Cup, for example.
Their best striker was a somewhat effeminate blonde guy, apparently of Basque descent. Much of the team had Italian surnames (Muslera, Lugano, etc.), and there was even a Russian guy. In the U.S. all of those guys would be White.
There were some other guys that almost certainly had Amerindian ancestry, but they seemed to be the minority.
Are those White guys with Italian surnames Latino/Hispanic? I guess they are if they say they are.
If you can possibly arrange it arrange to live far from latinos or hispanics. In very short order they drop out of your thinking altogether. Life gets so much better. Same for blacks. But that should go without saying.
the south americans i've met have all been white--and not just white but elites in their country.
PBS did a documentary on Brazil's then-new affirmative action for blacks in higher education.
As I understand it, they spent a lot of time arguing about who would be black enough to be black for AA purposes. (The show said a popular joke at the time was "Let the police decide. They always seem to figure out who the black person is.)
According to the show, potential students are basically eyeballed by a panel of people who must determine who is black, and that led to an infamous case in which identical twins went before two different panels. One twin was judged to be black; the other was ruled to be merely brown.
Anonymous #3 - Hispania, for the Romans was not a province, but a region, what we call now "Peninsula Ibérica"; and "Iberia" was what we call "Andalucia". None of the Roman provinces in Hispania corresponds to the modern Portugal or Spain. Their borders are build bettwen the 8 and 16 centurys, during the long fight against the Muslims. For instance, Lusitania "was" central Portugal and west Castilha...
Sorry, but since "names" are important... And Yes, Brazilians are "Hispanics" since much of their culture came from Hispania (via Portugal) and the label wants describe everybod that speack Latin languages south of Rio Grande, regardless of race. What I don´t understand is why black-americans are not Anglos...
I wish I'd seen that pewhispanic guide back when I was applying to colleges and grad schools. See, I'm from the upper midwest, my background is 100% Dutch, and I'm blond-haired and blue-eyed. But in the 16th century at least some of my ancestors might well have been citizens of the SPANISH Netherlands, so clearly I'm Hispanic if I say I am.
"Hispania", which is the name the ancient Romans gave to their province of Spain and not Portugal."
I think we can be very sure that the word Hispania is older than the Roman occupation of the Iberian peninsula. There's no consensus on what it originally meant and from what language it came. We know that it didn't come from Latin because besides "the Iberian peninsula" it doesn't mean anything in Latin. In Roman times this name denoted the entire peninsula. In the Middle Ages the Iberian peninsula was divided into many states, but after 1492 there remained only two. The larger one of these claimed the name España for itself. The smaller state slowly began deemphasizing this name in order to maintain a separate identity from the larger state. The Portuguese could happily think of themselves as a kind of Spaniards while the subjects of the Aragonese, Castilian, Leonese, etc. crowns thought of themselves as different kinds of Spaniards. But once the designation "Spaniard" became associated with allegiance to a single court in Madrid, the Portuguese elite found it necessary to distance itself from that name. They weren't subjects of the king who sat in Madrid. If the king of Aragon and Castille wanted to put on airs and call himself the king of all of Spain, then the Portuguese weren't going to be Spaniards anymore, just to emphasize their independence from him.
Ukrainians gradually deemphasized their formerly-strong Russian identity for similar reasons, though centuries later.
If the Confederate States of America were able to successfully defend their independence in the 1860s, then later their citizens would have probably found it attractive to deemphasize the word "American" as a self-description. The northerners would have undoubtedly continued to call themselves Americans. Since there were more of them, "American" would have mostly meant "northerner" to most of the world. The southerners, needing to differentiate themselves, to assert their separateness, would have likely gone with something else.
"Yes, yes we are. Imagine my surprise and dismay when I immigrated to the US only to find out that people actually BOASTED about having Indian blood."
This can serve two purposes in North America:
It makes you uber-American i.e. more American than those descended from 13 colonies settlers.
Makes an otherwise typical white girl a little more exotic which might get her a higher status mate.
For that matter, Americans will assume Brazilians are all part South American Indian not associating whatever gives you darker hair or olive complexions with Spaniards or Italians from halfway round the world.
Anonymous: Rule of thumb in the USA is that Christian and Jewish Middle Easterners and North Africans are White, while Muslims are "other".
The same in Brazil.
Hey Steve, watch some Brazilian movies like Elite Squad 1 and 2, they are somewhat hyperbolic and play fast-and-loose with the facts but show quite well the extreme nihilism that caracterise Brazil and maybe Lat Am as whole.
Brazilians and other Lusophones shouldn't qualify because they lack the single most important trait of Hispanics/Latinos/Hispanophones/whatever:
An overriding hatred for the Anglo-Saxon.
The British have long called Portugal "our oldest ally". Can you imagine saying that about Spain?
Just a note on the continuum of prejudice noted in Brazil. I have seen it in the Caribbean and in the US as well.
A friend [white] was renting a room with a black lady with obvious Caucasian blood somewhere in her ancestry. When my friend phoned home to the US she was overheard saying, "Mom, I'm staying with a lovely, very nice black lady." When she hung up she was shocked to find her landlady in a rage. "How dare you say I'm black. I'm not black." Yeah, she was black.
In the US I sat quietly sipping coffee in a black-owned restaurant listening to the staff [all black women] criticizing another black woman who was not present. All of the criticism was in racial [racist?] terms. "She not so pretty! She got fat lips and a big nose. She black!"
Kind of an eye opener for me to hear them grading their own appearance on racial characteristics. I doubt they would have been so outspoken if they had remembered I was there.
"Brazilians and other Lusophones shouldn't qualify because they lack the single most important trait of Hispanics/Latinos/Hispanophones/whatever:
An overriding hatred for the Anglo-Saxon."
Hmmm "hatred" is a strong word, but the few Brazilians I've been acquainted with weren't overly fond of Anglo-Saxons or Americans.
RE: Hispanic affirmative action,
Heck, I actually debated playing that card when I was sending out my University applications. My mother was born in Mexico, but both of her parents are Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe. In the end, I couldn't bring myself to do it and filled out the White slot.
Went to UTexas with a guy whose father was a psychiatrists (MD) who immigrated from Portugal.
He claimed to be Hispanic and used that to get into UTexas undergrad and law school.
Are Catalans Hispanic?
Catalans are Hispanic if they say that they are!
watch some Brazilian movies like Elite Squad 1 and 2
I recently did, and found it quite surprising: Elite Squad 1 is a barely watchable bore while Elite Squad 2 is very, very good.
@Swimming @anon
Yes, I understand and was aware of both your points. North American whites love to boast about any iota of non-whiteness they have, which is understandable...as the zeitgeist is that whites are evil and dorky- so anything to differentiate yourself. I did this too, when I was a naive high-schooler- but now I am very proud of my heritage which is white white white.
In South America having Indian blood can be a scandal among whites (especially the elite)- tongues are always wagging when new mothers won't let other people change her baby (as indian babies usually have the Mongolian spot on their butts).
And North and South American Indians are not THAT much different. I'm doing a Then and Now on them soon and they look very similar to me. Ours seem to handle wheat, sugar, and alcohol better too, lol.
My ex-wife's family is as whitebread as you can get. Her sister married a guy named Rodriguez, but his ancestors came to Louisiana with Galvez in 1777. His family is old-money Southern. Yet their lily-white, blue-eyed, blonde daughters get racial preferences in college admissions and qualify for scholarships because they check the "hispanic" box.
I briefly went out with a girl from the Mississippi coast with the same Spanish name as my maid and my gardener, but she was pale as a china doll, and her family had been in the US for 300 years. One of her claims to fame was that she had gone out on a date with Brett Favre (and, yes, he got in a fight while they were out). The other, I learned, was that her brother had been in my college class, and I'm sure he benefitted from affirmative action as an "Hispanic".
Since the modern-day Irish are descended mainly from the Milesian Celt-Iberians from Spain (which was part of the ancient Celtic world, pre-Roman conquest) who invaded the island of Eire circa 400-200 B.C., that means all Irish people are Hispanic. There even used to be ancient sea-trade routes between Eire and Iberia (see W.B. Yeats, "...or trading out of Galway into Spain." Galway is the same root-word as Galicia.)
Ta-daaa!! Patrick me lad, put down that beer and finish your Yale application!
Pat Buchanan banned from MSNBC. Remarks about Jewish power and affirmative action/immigration banned by Whimbc.
Anonymous @2/16/12 7:52 PM
Since the modern-day Irish are descended mainly from the Milesian Celt-Iberians from Spain (which was part of the ancient Celtic world, pre-Roman conquest) who invaded the island of Eire circa 400-200 B.C., that means all Irish people are Hispanic. There even used to be ancient sea-trade routes between Eire and Iberia (see W.B. Yeats, "...or trading out of Galway into Spain." Galway is the same root-word as Galicia.)
Galicia is definitely Celtic. Here is Susana Seivane, a Galician/Gallega musician, playing the bagpipe.
My mother is brazilian and my father is american, i basically grew up and still live in brazil. My question is, how do i check the hispanic box when applying for college when my name is peter mchugh?
Also, steve, about skin colors all brazilians want to tan as much as humanly possible regardless of skin color, proofbof this is hiw crowded beaches here get. Race is established more from facial charqcteristics and behavior.
In South America there is only one rule: If you have money or position, you are White or whatever you say. Bienvenido Señor.
Comparing american and brazilian racism is impossible. Im white as hell (irish american father, white brazilian mother), but here in brazil i can call a black person "negao", meaning big negro. Here in brazil they didnt teach blacks to hate their white overlords.
Culturally brazilians arent the same as hispanics. But theyre prolly just as f'd up if not more so, thats why i love it here.
Commenting on a commenter above about elite squad. I used to frequent those slums to do coke all night long there, and to go to the bailes funk. Id hang out with gangbangers with ak 47, they even let me hold them sometimes. Until one day the cops invaded the favela guns a blazin, never again did i go back. I was only 17 too, and a half american kid from westport ct, ahh good times those were.
I've considered checking the "Latino" box for law school applications, but chicken out everytime. I have a lot of French blood on both sides of my family, and a little Italian on one. After all, both of those countries are considered "Latin." While I have an extremely Northern Euro surname, my first name just happens to be a popular Spanish name. I have very dark hair, so why not? If I claimed to be hispanic in an interview it wouldn't be glaringly obvious that I wasn't, as long as I went tanning beforehand. I could get away with lying if I wanted, I think.
Hmmm "hatred" is a strong word, but the few Brazilians I've been acquainted with weren't overly fond of Anglo-Saxons or Americans.
If you pay as much attention to their music as you do to their knockers, they embrace you.
And stay away from both the lefties and the aristocrats.
Finally, a word or two of Portuguese goes a long way with them. Pois é.
So, are french-canadians latinos too? Haha
Steve,
As we know these definitions are ridiculous, and their ultimate hidden (or not so hidden) aim is t be anti-white.
'Hispanic' means from Hispania, which I believe was an ancient, pre-Roman name for the entire Iberian peninsula, Portugal and all, so strictly speaking, Hispanic is identical with Iberian in including the Portuguese.I realise there was a Roman province of Lusitania, corresponding to modern Portugal, more or less, but Hispania is pre-Roman - a story I read was that the Carthaginians named it after their word for rabbit 'span' which were abundant.
Now Latino properly refers to Latins who were just one of many Italianiate tribes, dwelling in the province of Latium, the hinterland of Rome.Other tribes and language families such as Oscans,Ligurians,Etruscans, Umbrians,Greeks etc occupied Italy at that time.
The extention of that term to mean a generalized south American is ridiculous.
the always helpful Pew Hispanic Center
Yeah, I mean what would we do without the Pew Hispanic Center? I'd be lost.
Let us know when there's a Pew White Center. Since at the moment it looks like Whites will be displaced as America's largest ethnic group sometime late this century.
That's because the U.S. government is woozy on this question.
Were that the least of the problems with the US government.
Actually, until that stupid bastard Galtieri kicked off a non-existant squabble over the Falkland Islands ( a bunch of tree-less, wind swept barren rocks in the cold south Atlantic, unlike the lushness of most of Argentina), in order to divert attention from his economic failures, Argentina was Anglophile to a fault.
Yes, when I arrived in Buenos Aires on a cold afternoon in May 1978, the hotel served a formal tea. Veddy English. Borges was Anglophilic, taking pride in having the same last name as Anthony Burgess.
Most of the world is experiencing a strong dysgenic trend. I have a question for Brazilian readers: is this true in Brazil? Do Brazilian blacks have more kids, on average than Brazilian whites? Do the poor have more kids than the middle class and the wealthy? Is Brazil a little lighter or a little darker today than it was 50 years ago? Official statistics probably wouldn't be of much help on the last question because self-identification is subject to changes in fashion, but a native would be expected to have a feel for where his society is going.
About Brazilian fertility:
"How a mix of female empowerment and steamy soap operas helped bring down Brazil’s fertility rate and stoke its vibrant economy."
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/09/girl-power/gorney-text
"Were that the least of the problems with the US government."
Amen.
Why doesn't the US Government just simply legislate white males as 3rd class citizens, and formalize it in an Indian caste type system, (by using the sanction of modern religion ie PC), and be done with it?
Then we wouldn't have these silly squabbles about what exactly 'latino' means.
I've raid somewhere that genetic markers typical of amerinds and africans are widespread in 'white' Brazilians, particularly from the maternal line and amongst the old stock Portuguese elite as opposed to later arriving Europeans.
The percentages quoted seemed high to me, I can't remember, but I think it was a majority.
Elite Squad 1 a bore? You must not have seen the same movie. It is one of the greatest artistic rebellions against Frankfurt School Political Correctness I have ever seen. It is a CLASSIC.
My favorite scene of all is where BOPE is going after the gang leader after he has killed one of BOPE's. They barge into a favela shanty house, rifle through a young man's belongings, and pull out a pair of shoes. But not just any shoes, these are expensive shoes - the sign of a gang banger. They yank him out of his house, torture him, and eventually he spills the beans on where the gang leader is hiding. The actions of BOPE were right, but they would appall any criminal defense lawyer.
I suspect one of the original motivations for the Frankfurt School creators of PC was to create more work for criminal defense lawyers by hobbling the justice system. Criminals have learned to take advantage of our laws in order to attack law abiding society and what we are seeing is its decay as the criminal class grows and the law abiding class shrinks.
However, there is a limit to everything and we will see it soon if we aren't seeing it already - a reaction back to historical norms, just like a rubber band snapping back to where it naturally sits. Giving police a free hand, suspension of some due process, and punishments that fit the crimes (cut the hand off the thief, torture the torturer, execute the killer). Perhaps even reprisal killings for mass murder and serial killings, in order to punish the families who would harbor such evil and send a strong message to those who would consider perpetrating such acts.
The fact is, there is a massive cost to society when the true negatives (i.e. guilty criminals) are let free by the criminal justice system. It is a side not generally shown by Hollywood, for whom 12 Angry Men, The Green Mile, and The Life of David Gale has long been the rule.
To weigh true negatives as only 1/100 or 1/1000 of the value of a false positive especially when considering the likely recidivism of criminals - let's just say that Plato must not have had any relatives murdered without provocation.
Rule of thumb in the USA is that Christian and Jewish Middle Easterners and North Africans are White, while Muslims are "other."
That rule works okay because most Middle Eastern Christians are from Lebanon and Syria, which have the lightest people in the region. If we suddenly had a big influx of brown Coptic Christians from Egypt, which come to think of it is not an entirely impossible eventuality, things would be much more complicated.
Galicia is definitely Celtic. Here is Susana Seivane, a Galician/Gallega musician, playing the bagpipe.
What about Ukrainian Galicia?
Most of the world is experiencing a strong dysgenic trend. I have a question for Brazilian readers: is this true in Brazil? Do Brazilian blacks have more kids, on average than Brazilian whites? Do the poor Anonymous: have more kids than the middle class and the wealthy? Is Brazil a little lighter or a little darker today than it was 50 years ago? Official statistics probably wouldn't be of much help on the last question because self-identification is subject to changes in fashion, but a native would be expected to have a feel for where his society is going.
Yes, Brazil been having a dysgenic trend in the last 30 or 40 years, every Brazilian city has a favela with exceptiom of the smaller ones and villages, because of the strong grow of the poor population, specially blacks, mulatos and mestiços, Rio de Janeiro situation being the most dramatic, how the Government will clean the city for Olynpics and the World Cup is something to watch.
So, are french-canadians latinos too? Haha
Sure, and Haitians too. If "Latino" ends up meaning: Romance language speaker from the Americas.
A bit off-topic: can anybody think of a shorter way to end Affirmative Action than for all Whites to check "Hispanic"?
brazil will be eventulaly run by blacks because they have more kids
Brazil's economy has been doing very, very well for the past 15 years, and Brazil has recently surpassed Great Britain to become the World's sixth largest GDP.
Whilst I don't begrudge the Brazilians their success and what little I know of our respective industrial and economic policies, it seems Brazil's are considerable more sensible than the UK's, nevertheless, I do wonder how much of Brazil's economy overtaking the UK's economy is due to an over valued Brazilian currency compared to rapidly devaluing sterling.
In other words I suspect this is an accounting issue and not something based in actual production and factories etc.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8029560/Brazil-warns-of-world-currency-war.html
Am I right?
Borges was Anglophilic, taking pride in having the same last name as Anthony Burgess.
Just like John Smith and Johann Schmidt are the same?
Yes.Technically everybody descended from the Latin countries of Europe is a Latino/Latina, but it's used as a catch-all for those south of the US border. Portugal and Italy were part of Latin Europe, and those are the other major ethnic groups, and both are descended from Latin European stock.
Marc B,
There is no such thing as 'Latin European stock', unless you mean the indigenous people of Lazio, Italy.
I think the word you are looking for is 'mediterranean' which is used to describe the general stock of the region of the Mediterranean littoral ie dark whites characterised by dark hair, dark eyes and olive skin found from Portugal to Turkey.Jews, real Jews belong to this great family.
An anthropologist would call them 'mediterranids' - this is the correct term to use.Of course, racially they are completely unlike many central and south Americans, and genetically the peoples of the Mediterranean cluster together.
A better catch all term is needed for south Americans.
@Peter
If we suddenly had a big influx of brown Coptic Christians from Egypt, which come to think of it is not an entirely impossible eventuality, things would be much more complicated.
They would be labled as "African-American" which neither they nor the larger African -American community would appreciate at all.
Well, technically, if Brazilians discriminate against darker-skinned people in favor of lighter-skinned people, even if those people are from the same families and just inherited different mixes of genes for skin color from their parents, wouldn't that make them "colorists" rather than "racists" (which, assuming we define race as a partially inbred extended family, would presumably refer to people who discriminate based on ancestry)?
I'm White, but one of my (full biological) siblings is darker-skinned and heavily tanned, and has occasionally been mistaken for a Mexican. Does that make her Hispanic, and if so, does that also make me Hispanic?
About brazil and south america having dysgenic trend, it is mostly true. If you watch old movies, anyone who traveled the world his trunk would have rio de janeiro and buenos aires stickers among others from around the world.
Christmad i was watching its a wonderful life, when jimmy stewart has broshures for rio my uncle gave me shit for being part brazulian by asking, what happened that no one wants to go there anymore. At the time i didnt have an answer, but it dawned on me, its too many of the wrong people outbreeding the right people.
Rio used to be a glamorous destination, now adays not so much.
The College Board / PSAT is the most specific in its definition of hispanic/latino-ness.
Link
They list specific countries, (Brazil counts) as well as codifying their 25% rule. (i.e. if you have one hispanic grandparent,you're entitled to AA)
"To qualify for this program, you must be at least one-quarter Hispanic/Latino. Hispanic/Latino is an ethnic category, not a racial category, and you may be of any race. For purposes of the NHRP, you must be from a family whose ancestors came from at least one of these countries: Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Spain, Uruguay or Venezuela."
Flavia, Brazilian, or anybody else who knows: I'm curious. I know next to nothing about the history of the European conquest in Brazil - are there any Brazilian equivalents to legendary North Americans like Crazy Horse, Geronimo, Osceola?
I ask because white Americans taking pride in native ancestry precedes PC, and I wonder if this has to do with the fact that the Indian Wars threw up quite a few remarkable resistance leaders. And in pre-PC days these men, and their warriors, were frankly admired by whites for their military acumen, courage, and general bad-assery, not because they loved Mother Gaia.
Not to say there wasn't any shame or perceptions of taintedness associated with native connections - there was. But the attitudes were often a lot more ambivalent, and shaded into actual pride if the relative was far enough away in time or space to have been mythologized into a Noble Savage. (For example, see Winston Churchill's mother and her alleged Iroquois ancestor.) Some tribes, of course, being cooler than others.
Just curious.
TFR of Brazilian women, according to region and race (2009):
NORTH - 2.02 for white women, 2.67 for black or brown women
NORTHEAST - 1.85 W, 2.10 BB
SOUTHEAST - 1.55 W, 2.00 BB
SOUTH - 1.64 W, 2.63 BB
CENTER-WEST - 1.65 W, 2.37 BB
Brazilian women, as a whole, had a TFR of 1.94 as of 2009.
Source: http://www.ibge.gov.br/home/estatistica/populacao/condicaodevida/indicadoresminimos/sinteseindicsociais2010/SIS_2010.pdf (in Portuguese)
Brazilian said: "Many Brazilians can understand spanish and even speak without much instruction beacause is very familiar to portuguese." Yes, you can speak a bastardized "Spanish" raped by Portuguese and be able to communicate decently with a Spanish speaker on a basic level, but that's it. And you'll sound silly and maybe say things you shouldn't (like calling someone's group of friends a testicle) because of false cognates. It's also easier for Portuguese speakers to understand Spanish than the other way around, but they're very similar in written form.
What if someone is 1/4 Mexican. Is he/she a Latino too. Suppose 3 white grandparents and one Mexican?
You know that you cannot get more Latin than Italians from Rome.
"An overriding hatred for the Anglo-Saxon."
There is a very strong strain in Latin America, especially among the wealthier groups, of being pro-English in mannerisms and affectations.
As Steve said, high tea, polo clubs, gentlemen's clubs modelled on the old London clubs, etc.
English were the railroad builders, merchants, and engineers for 19th century Latin America, and their tastes rubbed off on the local elites. Many of the S. American soccer teams were founded in association with English expats.
I like the diversity of Brazil except for too many blacks.
Eine Kleine Englander - a currency which is increasing in value is the world's way of noticing that yes, you are doing something right. And we're going to make it harder for you to sell abroad. So the rising Brazilian Real is a symptom of Brazil's success, while the falling Pound is a symptom of Britain's failure.
So for purposes of the PSAT, my kids are hispanic, but their kids likely won't be.
The Census definition leaves out "Caribbean", so someone from Jamaica or the Virgin Islands is not hispanic, but someone from Belize or Guyana is.
Is Alberto Fujimori Hispanic?
For purposes of the NHRP, you must be from a family whose ancestors came from at least one of these countries: Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Spain, Uruguay or Venezuela."
I´m confused: if Brazil and Spain are in the list, it stands to reason that Portugal should be in there too.
@Rohan Swee In the Romantic period of Brazilian literature, just after our independence, the Native was the epitome of Brazilian-ness. The most famous examples of this are "O Guarani" and "Iracema". But as a Brazilian, I can't think of a single relevant Indigenous personality in our history. Nowadays, we tend to regard everything African in origin as authentically Brazilian, as opposed to our European influences, which are often deemed "foreign". Natives are also cool, but nobody out of the Amazonian region cares that much about them. Keep in mind that what I'm saying (except for the literary part and Indians as our first national symbols) is a bit anedoctal, so other Brazilians might disagree.
"If we suddenly had a big influx of brown Coptic Christians from Egypt, which come to think of it is not an entirely impossible eventuality, things would be much more complicated.
They would be labled as "African-American" which neither they nor the larger African -American community would appreciate at all."
Presumably, they would be considered "Caucasian" under the census definition, just as other people from the middle east are technically "Caucasian".
Anonydroid at 11:55 a.m. quoted the PSAT: "For purposes of the NHRP, you must be from a family whose ancestors came from at least one of these countries: Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Spain, Uruguay or Venezuela."
Hunsdon replied: Spain, but not Portugal? Brazil, but not Portugal?
"Is Alberto Fujimori Hispanic?"
LOL No- He's Chino!!
@Rohan
Yes we have our legends too- I didn't get too much schooling in Latin America- but I do remember that the theme was the evil greedy Spaniards came on their quest for gold- totally exploited the Indians (who were tall and blue-eyed, don't you know- god knows how we got these 4'11 people built like SpongeBob)....Anyway, Atahualpa, the King of the Incas agreed to give Pizarro (Spanish conquistador) a room full of silver and a room full of gold (as tall as him with his hand outstretched to the sky)...Pizarro got the booty and killed Atahualpa anyway by drawing and quartering him.
The theme is that the Spaniards were evil bastards and the Incas were noble- their only flaw being that the Trusted Too Much. The irony is that this BS is passed on to us by a mostly white elite- who are more tied to their nationality than they are to their race.
I really liked Apocalypto BTW :D
However, there is a limit to everything and we will see it soon if we aren't seeing it already - a reaction back to historical norms, just like a rubber band snapping back to where it naturally sits. Giving police a free hand, suspension of some due process, and punishments that fit the crimes (cut the hand off the thief, torture the torturer, execute the killer). Perhaps even reprisal killings for mass murder and serial killings, in order to punish the families who would harbor such evil and send a strong message to those who would consider perpetrating such acts.
I'd like to think the evolution of government in Western World was the slow and painful process of learning that people with this mentality should never be put in charge of anything important.
"That rule works okay because most Middle Eastern Christians are from Lebanon and Syria, which have the lightest people in the region. If we suddenly had a big influx of brown Coptic Christians from Egypt, which come to think of it is not an entirely impossible eventuality, things would be much more complicated."
Not all Copts are "brown" though I don't know a whole lot about them, except the one I dated, and his family. One of the palest people I ever met from the "middle east." When I first saw him, I did think he was middle eastern but couldn't quite place him. He did have curly--what he called "hard" hair, v. black. Dark eyes. Fair skin. Very regular, caucasoid features with absolutely nothing "sub-Saharan black" about them.
His favorite musician was Yanni and he hated Egyptian culture--considered them loud. He didn't even want to visit Italy because he figured all people living in that part of the would be "loud." When he first came to America he'd try to ingratiate himself with blacks by saying he came from Africa; but after a few years he didn't want any association with them and wanted nothing to do with them (as a whole of course, not individual blacks whom he liked or worked with.)
His eyes were a little almond shaped and he really looked like what I thought an ancient Egyptian would look like, though he said he thought whoever built the pyrmids had no relation to current Egyptians. Copts were outliers in Egypt, so he was not nationalistic at all.
Pictures of his family showed mostly very light skinned people and the kids they had with European descended spouses (including his son by a previous marriage) were entirely white looking. Didn't even have the "hard" hair.
I'd like to think the evolution of government in Western World was the slow and painful process of learning that people with this mentality should never be put in charge of anything important.
I know you'd like to think that, irrespective of the truth. Unfortunately, some people in the world are brutish and evil. Some are also more clever than almost all of the police (which is not surprising considering that all of the top 5% of bright kids in school go where the money is, i.e. medicine, business, engineering, law) which means that they can evade punishment most of the time. The more people are criminal in nature on average, the less a 20th century style justice system works. How does mollycoddling Frankfurt School justice work in Detroit?
There is a minimum amount of brutality that is required for civilization to function. In the haste of supposedly well meaning do-gooders (and intelligent criminals who know what platitudes to mouth) to eliminate all brutality from society by also removing it from the justice system, the total amount of brutality rises.
The difference is that rather than the state wield the brutality it is criminals and criminal gangs who exercise brutality, with its victims receiving zero due process, zero right to a fair trial, zero rights to appeal, with the punishment often being summary execution, and with those who exercise this judgement basing their opinions on balance of probability or worse, "better safe than sorry".
When the numbers of victims start to seriously outweigh the numbers of people given wrist slaps by the so-called "justice" system, there is a real problem.
His eyes were a little almond shaped and he really looked like what I thought an ancient Egyptian would look like, though he said he thought whoever built the pyrmids had no relation to current Egyptians
Aren't the Copts the remnants of the pyramid-build classical Ancient Egyptians, and the current "Egyptians" descendents of Arabs who ethnically cleansed them?
A lot of the "exotic ancestry" bit among whites is just wanting an interesting story to tell. Frex, I and my family are about as white as you can get without requiring sunblock to go outside at night. And yet, there's supposedly an American Indian somewhere on my dad's side, and a notorious (white) criminal on my mom's side. These both make for moderately interesting stories, but have little other impact. It's not like finding the alleged Indian five or six hops back in my family tree is going to get my kids preferrential admissions to college, or make me an un-fireable employee due to the threat of a discrimination lawsuit, or even get me a cut of the casino revenue from some tribe somewhere.
Anthony
So the rising Brazilian Real is a symptom of Brazil's success, while the falling Pound is a symptom of Britain's failure.
Yeah, but...devaluing the pound is British policy.
The Bank of England invented 'quantative easing' where the Bank of England creates billions of pounds out thin air.
Whereas, I understand the Brazilian central bank is unable to devalue the Real sufficiently...for some reason.
Jim Rickards book 'Currency Wars', although US focused, explains this to some extent.
The CIA World Fact Book puts nearly 50% of the population of Brazil as either black or mulatto. Another 35% or more is probably Mestizo.
So they could all qualify as MAMBs:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=MAMB
I lived in Spain for four years as a kid. I went to high school in Panama. I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Chile. I speak, read, and write fluent Spanish.
I have more experience living in Latin culture than many hispanics. Am I hispanic?
"Went to UTexas with a guy whose father was a psychiatrists (MD) who immigrated from Portugal."
I did get curious some years ago about who, exactly, qualified as hispanic. I remember reading on some website (maybe a government website, but not sure) that people of Portugese descent were considered hispanic. Those of Spanish descent, however, were not. So maybe your classmate qualified, if that's the way to put it.
Race may not be a social construct, but "hispanic" clearly is, or maybe a bureaucratic construct. I once had a Brazilian student of Japanese ancestry. She was as Japanese looking as any Japanese student. If she stayed in the States, would she be Asian-American or hispanic? Or would she be either and both, as suited her?
What about her kids, or her grandkids? If she married a Japanese American of long-standing, what box would their kids tick on their college applications? I think the answer is, whichever one provided the most advantage in admissions and access to financial aid.
I think the answer to the question of "who is hispanic" really is, "whoever says they are." Something to think about if your kids are approaching college age.
"His eyes were a little almond shaped and he really looked like what I thought an ancient Egyptian would look like, though he said he thought whoever built the pyrmids had no relation to current Egyptians
Aren't the Copts the remnants of the pyramid-build classical Ancient Egyptians, and the current "Egyptians" descendents of Arabs who ethnically cleansed them?"
Makes sense to me. I have read anthropological studies on ancient Egypt which showed more sub-Saharan black genes in the very late Egyptians compared to the earlier ones, but I'm no expert. Looking at the scupltures and portraits--some of the very early Egyptians are Caucasoid if you have to assign a major race, but definitely have something all their own going on.
I don't think the guy I knew was too interested somehow, though he had a video on the pyramids.
An overriding hatred for the Anglo-Saxon."
There is a very strong strain in Latin America, especially among the wealthier groups, of being pro-English in mannerisms and affectations. "
Don't think there's any "overriding hatred for the Anglo-Saxon." They do prefer their "Latin" ways, but the educated people always had a tendency to British-ize their lifestyle. I knew a brazilian woman who worked at her Embassy in London during the 80s and LOVED London--she described it as "cozy" and with so many cultural amentities. She was bitter about an American backed coup in Brazil that put some guy she loathed into office and caused a lot of people to lose their jobs in the embassies. She really missed London. She was Brazilian of mostly what looked to be Portugese descent I guess. What else I don't know.
Is John McCain Hispanic? (Born on a military base in Panama). If so, is his daughter?
I am brazilian and I consider latinos the people from mexico and central america. The south americans, well.. south americans but if you asked me my race, whit but my ethinicity is Brazilian just like my best friend is or black or african race but her ethnicity is Brazilian..
the indigenous population I believe is mainly called natives... so either brazilian indigenous population or native brazilians? Any way, my point is, I identify myself not as latina, nor american (south american) but as Brazilian
There are practically no Japs in Chile. Brazil is the one with the largest Japanese diaspora and also largest Italian population outside Italy. British descendants in Argentina and Brazil are Latin cuz Romance languages became their mother tongues just like Ashkenazi Jews and Arabs in Brazil and Argentina, Germans, Dutch, Lithuanians, Japanese, Czechs, Ukranians and Scandinavians in Brazil and Welsh, Norwegians, Slavic and Chinese in Argentina. It's not that complicated
South Americans like Brazilians or Argentinians who are 100% European Caucasoid, who have 100% European ancestry/heritage/extraction are Whiter than those North Americans who are partially Jewish or those whose background is made of old European immigration from the 17th century and have some Native-American and African blood assimilation even though they look like someone who's 100% European background, regardless of looking 100% White
The second most spoken language in Brazil is German
If Brazilians are latinos cause the Romance language, so are the French, Italians,Spanish, Portuguese and Romanians.
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