Back in 2005, Michael Blowhard offered the best explanation I've heard in response to the perpetual heterosexual male question about why fashion models look like fashion models (i.e., tall, bony) rather than like strippers. All those 5'10" 120 pound Slovakians in the ads in women's magazines appeal to female readers' fantasies about being more gravity resistant, about being less weighted down by mortal flesh:
My own modest theory is that fashion magazines are to women what magazines about computers (and porno) are to guys -- they're fantasy books. It's just that women's fantasies -- many women's fantasies, anyway -- concern being photographed (ie., desired) and looking glamorous (ie., desirable). Where guys seem to enjoy imagining what they'd do to and with what's in the picture, women seem prone to imagine being what's pictured.
There's an additional fantasy element too, which is autonomy. Part of what women fashion-magazine fans seem to enjoy imagining is the fantasy of being found glamorous purely for its own sake. They seem to want to forget about the pleasing-guys element. There's a little defiance in the fantasy -- and you can see the defiance in many of the kicky poses and attitudes the models strike.
Perhaps something that helps explain the appeal of these images is that not only do many women enjoy imagining looking like these models, they enjoy imagining feeling like them too. I think guys often forget what a weighty and earthbound thing it can be, being a gal. There's so much dreariness to contend with: fatbags, hormones, moods, emotional agonies, etc. Women are weighed down by a lot of burdens, or at least they feel that they are, which is good enough for the purposes of my attempt at an explanation here.
The gals in the pages of fashion magazines and catalogs aren't weighed down by anything, not even flesh. They burst out of cabs, they leap onto sidewalks, they let loose with irrepressible guffaws, they're caught by insistent cameras looking their klutzy-but-charming best; they're tall and slim, and they're feelin' good and they're lookin' ready to dazzle. The girls in the pix get to enjoy the champagne-and-cocaine fun parts of being a grownup woman. They aren't saddled with fat asses and wobbly upper arms, with PMS, with no-good boyfriends and lecherous bosses, with imperfect features, with senseless mood swings, etc.
What the fashion mags are selling is, to some extent, a fantasy of play and freedom.
Which, come to think of it, is (in a general sense) pretty much what men's magazines sell too. Many guys enjoy indulging in fantasies about utopia -- a male utopia full of gadgets and sex-without-consequences. Many gals love indulging in fantasies about utopia too -- a female utopia, where the fantasizer is carefree and irresistably desirable 24/7.
My hunch: perhaps superslim-and-supertall are a visual representation of carefree-and-desirable.
By the way, that suggests an insight into why fashion models almost always say in interviews that they were tomboys who weren't interested in clothes and makeup when they were young. It's because it's sort of true. Females tend to stop growing in height at puberty, so very tall women tend to be the ones who reached puberty later, and thus kept growing for an extra year or two in adolescence, which is the time period they remember.
Gymnastics in the Olympics offers its huge number of female viewers a similar fantasy of weightlessness, but in a more presexual version of Twirling Tweens. It's a contest to identify the World's Best Pixie, just as the Winter Olympics figure skating finds the World's Best Princess.
Indeed, the Olympics had to impose a minimum age limit of 16 to keep the event from being dominated by little girls (Nadia Comaneci, for instance, was 14 in 1976 when she won all those gold medals). Not surprisingly, most of the winning American team this year is 16. Adult women are built more for comfort than speed.
Gymnastics currently seems to select for girls who, like fashion models, go through puberty late, but who, unlike models, stay short.
Gymnastics currently seems to select for girls who, like fashion models, go through puberty late, but who, unlike models, stay short.
I don't find Michael Blowhard's theory convincing. The most popular explanation seems more plausible to me: female models look like teenage boys because that's what gay designers find attractive.
ReplyDeleteFigure skaters are more pixie-like, but gymnast girls are anything but feminine. I don't mean just in looks -- being too muscular and short-limbed -- but in behavior.
ReplyDeleteThey walk around the campus dining hall with their shoulders spread out and their arms held at a good angle away from their sides, swinging like a ghetto thug who wants to send the signal not to mess with him.
They tend to have worse acne and backne than ice skater girls, probably a sign of higher T but perhaps also more doping. Gymnasts are also a lot hornier and aggressive.
Gymnastics is based on sprinting, leaping, and upper body strength. All that explosive movement selects for girls who are fundamentally macho dudes that somehow ended up in a tiny chick's body.
You see that in cheerleading too. It used to be normal, feminine, charming, often leggy girls who were the cheerleaders. Now that it's gone into gymnastics territory, those types have been weeded out, and been replaced by the macho show-off daredevil girls.
And since that's all heritable, you find now a totally different kind of parent of cheerleaders -- the psychotic "cheer moms," who were completely absent when it was just a way of pretty girls to boost team spirit, not Evil Knieval stunts.
but whom
ReplyDeleteI'm not liking that "m".
"Gymnasts are also a lot hornier and aggressive."
ReplyDeleteReminds me of what a male friend said back when we were in our late teens.
Curt: "I'm going on a blind date tonight, I'm going to have fun."
Kylie: "If it's a blind date, how do you know you're going to have fun?"
Curt: "She's a gymnast."
I suppose obese women might want to look like those models, but the average woman does NOT.
ReplyDeleteWhat we like looking at in the mag ads are the glamorous settings into which the models are placed.
To a college coed who hasn't yet found romance, to a young mom with an insistent toddler or two, to a middle aged mom with a couple of demanding, smart-mouthed teens and a tired looking husband, the ads offer mystery and escape.
Who whom?
ReplyDeleteModels are human coat hangers, so girls who excel at emulating coat hangers (i.e., are tall, thin, without T&A) are shoo-ins.
ReplyDeleteHere's an interesting comparative pictorial of male and female athletes in different sports. While in most sports both sexes tend toward a masculine body build, in gymnastics the ideal body type is different for men and women. This is because the events are different, with male gymnastics emphasizing upper body strength much more.
One or another Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"To a college coed who hasn't yet found romance, to a young mom with an insistent toddler or two, to a middle aged mom with a couple of demanding, smart-mouthed teens and a tired looking husband, the ads offer mystery and escape."
Mightn't most of that also play into the Blowhard thesis? I'm thinking of what he left out of his "earthbound" catalogue. It's the most obvious thing, in fact, which might also have something to do with the pubescent-pixie business in gymnastics, were one looking for a Grand Unified Theory: namely, the triple threat of pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood.
Anyway, it's a thought.
Agree 100% with Agnositc about the American "women's" gymnastics team but it's not inherent to gymnastics. Watch the Russian or Romanian teams. They walk and have the mannerisms of actual females. Not being a fan of gymnastics I only have seen what they've shown on NBC so I haven't seen any other teams but I'd be stunned if any eastern or southern European teams were as unfeminine as the Americans*.
ReplyDelete* They're not universally unfeminine. Gabby Douglas seems sort of girly. Kyla Ross seems normal as well.
Yeah the "whom" is wrong there because it's the subject of a clause.
ReplyDeleteSheesh, let's cut to the chase: all these judged events--synchronized swimming, rhythmic gymnastics, figure skating--are just elaborate personal ads.
ReplyDeleteside note, but the bbc is celebrating what steve called 'zombie feminism'
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19084494
"Striking a blow
Women take their place in one final Olympic sport"
I think the idea that female models are a gay man's young male fantasy cloaked in female gender is a scam - a woman's way of saying "if you think that perfectly proportioned, slinky, smoothly complexioned object is sexier than chunky old me, you're gay." Give me one example of a masculine female model other than tokens like Grace Jones or Iman. Female athletes are much more boyish. There are very few good looking women in the olympics and the few who are, could be described as handsome women.
ReplyDeleteI read somewhere that teenage girls have a "thing" for horses because they represent a subconscious fantasy of men. And that pets represent a fulfillment of a subconscious desire for children. And that sports are ritualized warfare.
ReplyDeleteSee, psychology classes have some value when they're not anally fixated on liberal politics.
I always figured fashion models were scrawny and lacking in female curves because it was the gay fashion designers and gay fashion show managers who picked them out and they were drawn towards women who looked like gay men.
ReplyDeleteThen women turn around and gripe at men over anorexia when straight guys aren't attracted to those figures in the first place.
Who Whom?
ReplyDeleteSomeone please explain who whom again.
Post your reply using Name/URL WhoWhom.
thanks
In Romania, they speak of a man so virile, so potent, that to spend a night with such a man is to enter a world of such sensual delights most women dare not dream of. This man is known as the "Blogger". You may write witty commentary, Mr. Blowhard, but you are no Blogger.
ReplyDeleteGiraffes and chipmunks.
ReplyDeleteOne for gay fashion designers and the others for pedophiles.
I find Blowhard's theory, and this article, very convincing.
ReplyDeleteIt's a little different genre, but I think the whole existence of romance novels backs it up in a big way.
But it's not just women. All sorts of subgroups are into things that are idealized representations of what they want to be.
From the old Soldier of Fortune mags, pulpy novels like The Executioner Series, to magazines like Architectural Digest. Heck the New Yorker is another example if you look at it right, and think about what they say and it's audience.
"here's an additional fantasy element too, which is autonomy. Part of what women fashion-magazine fans seem to enjoy imagining is the fantasy of being found glamorous purely for its own sake. They seem to want to forget about the pleasing-guys element. There's a little defiance in the fantasy -- and you can see the defiance in many of the kicky poses and attitudes the models strike."
ReplyDeleteYou've just explained the inexplicable appeal of Sex and The City to deluded women of all ages even though most men found those gals roughly as desirable than The Golden Girls (In real life, Chris Noth's billionaire character would only be dating someone like Sarah Jessica Parker if he was too deep in the closet to come out as gay).
Seriously, look at them. They look like pre-op transsexuals trolling for sailors.
http://reichcomm.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451bafe69e200e552ac4c0b8834-800wi
"There are very few good looking women in the olympics and the few who are, could be described as handsome women."
ReplyDeleteGoogle "Dutch field hockey team." A whole team of fit, pert-nosed leggy hotties.
And since when is Iman-- a darker version of the Nefertiti statue-- masculine?
You're a homo, Anonymous.
Can't blame model looks on gay fashion designers, not exclusively any way.
ReplyDeleteI remember talking to my wife about a profile of a female fashion magazine editor that caught her complaining about some model having breasts.
My wife said it that women like that associate breasts and hips with their mothers, whome the resented. Made sense to me.
Agnostic: Figure skaters are more pixie-like, but gymnast girls are anything but feminine. I don't mean just in looks -- being too muscular and short-limbed -- but in behavior.
ReplyDeleteI saw one turn her face side to side with her hands cracking the bones in her neck, like a jock.
sports related
ReplyDeleteCollege Tennis - Why is it that so many college tennis players are foreign? Are there not enough qualified Americans?
Google "xyz college tennis roster" to see for yourself.
Agnostic: Figure skaters are more pixie-like, but gymnast girls are anything but feminine. I don't mean just in looks -- being too muscular and short-limbed -- but in behavior.
ReplyDeleteI saw one turn her face side to side with her hands cracking the bones in her neck, like a jock.
Women are not "tall and slim", with a few very rare exceptions. It's odd that women would pick as their ideal something which they can never be.
ReplyDeleteI doubt that all the five-ten 130lb girls in the fashion mags are there because they appeal to women. They're there because they appeal to gay men.
"I doubt that all the five-ten 130lb girls in the fashion mags are there because they appeal to women. They're there because they appeal to gay men."
ReplyDeleteSounds like a great business opportunity! Start a fashion magazine for women that only features models you think are hot. It's a hundred dollar bill lying on the sidewalk!
The fact that real women like pixie gymnasts throws doubt on the theory that they also like women who are a good six inches or more taller than the female average.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm going to let women off the hook for models. I do think there's something a little disturbing about their fondness for tiny girls in leotards though. It's a touch homoerotic, no?
Start a fashion magazine ..
ReplyDeleteIf I had any interest in doing so, I'd be a gay man.
Figure skaters are more pixie-like, but gymnast girls are anything but feminine.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that the Russian girl gymnasts were a lot prettier than the American ones. Less chunky, for one thing, but also more attractive faces.
"If I had any interest in doing so, I'd be a gay man."
ReplyDeleteThat sounds pretty gay ... What, you don't like being surrounded by voluptuous models of your choice while raking in the big bucks from all the women readers who gratefully say, "Finally, I can buy a fashion magazine that features models who look like my husband's favorite strippers!"
I think the idea that female models are a gay man's young male fantasy cloaked in female gender is a scam - a woman's way of saying "if you think that perfectly proportioned, slinky, smoothly complexioned object is sexier than chunky old me, you're gay."
ReplyDeleteBut female models are not "perfectly proportioned". They are proportioned like a teenage guy.
Marilyn Monroe was five-five, 36-22-35. Those are perfect proportions.
Supermodel Iman measures 5 ft 9 in and 34-28-38. That is less than perfect, from a male persepctive.
raking in the big bucks from all the women readers who gratefully say, "Finally, I can buy a fashion magazine that features models who look like my husband's favorite strippers!"
ReplyDeleteIf I accepted that logic, I'd also think to myself "How come nobody is making big bucks by starting a conservative newspaper or TV network for all those people sick of liberal bias? It must mean that the American people just love liberalism!"
I trust you see the error in that line of thought.
Aside from having more muscle than the average woman, there is nothing unfeminine about female gymnasts. Watching last night's broadcast, I could tell that the girls involved in that sport were definitely more feminine than, say, the female swimmers.
ReplyDeleteExcept for the irish girl and the black girl, the US team looks like it's representing the silk road or some w. asian country. It's very different from the smiley, box of wheaties, Mary Lou/ Kerry Strug types who you think of as being American gymnasts. On the general subject, what do the stupid red and rhinestone uniforms have to do with America? The Romanian team is still wearing their uniform from the 70's. It's simple with the national flag on the chest and the colors on the sleeves. I approve of that.
ReplyDelete"There are very few good looking women in the olympics and the few who are, could be described as handsome women."
Some guys want their girls to be nothing but hair and bone. I think that there's probably a golden mean of opinion on muscle that goes pretty much the same way as it does for fat on a woman: basically more is better, right up until it suddenly looks horribly wrong. However, most women simply aren't genetically configured to ever come close to that point, with the muscle anyway.
IMHO, the Olympics are stuffed with cute girls. Check out the French judo girl, Automne Pavia or the canadian fencer, Sandra Sassine. The mid distance runners and pole vaulters like Susanna Kallur all have comic book heroine physiques and every other one of them seems to be a knockout besides. It's too bad that the Liukin girl didn't make the gymnastics team. I happened to see one of the lead up competitions on tv, and she was looking completely ridiculous in her leotard this year. If she'd actually made the team, the telecasts would have been NC-17.
"You're a homo, Anonymous."
ReplyDelete"That sounds pretty gay ..."
LMAO, The most universal comeback in the 200,000 year history of male communication finally makes it way to Sailer's website; even Steve decided to use it today.
Well done, Steve; I'm sure the elder Mr. Sailer used that one quite a few times in his heyday, before all of this PeeCee nonsense!
He's looking down and smiling right now.
Women's gymnastics, and women's figure skating, both have a noticeable element of T&A to them. I suspect it is this which attracts the female audience, and not the particular body types in question. (Though to some extent of course the T&A rules out any overly-masculinized bodies)
ReplyDeleteFemale models emulating teenage boys and blaming men for anorexia reminds me of strong independent feminist women who become career obsessed, turn around and then blame most men for not dating them because they are afraid of how strong they are and how they are threatening to men, when in reality most men are not particularly interested in dating a female CEO (who for all purposes may be an affirmative action hire in disguise). Most men are not particularly interested in rai ultra skinny teenage boy like female bodies nor in obese American female whales. They prefer average types with average curves. Moderation. End of story.
ReplyDelete"why fashion models look like fashion models"
ReplyDeleteBecause the clothes look better on stick poles, than on a normal (even super sexy) woman.
Also, less materials are needed.
And keeps women apopleptic because no healthy woman who doesn't chase the dragon can look that way.
Win-win-win.
RE agnostic's comment.
ReplyDeleteSome of the gymnasts (e.g. Jordyn Weiber) have wide thick necks.
I imagine women do think that tall and thin models look care-free and desirable, and perhaps gay designers use them as fill-ins for teenage boys (I’m not gay, and I think they find some good ones). However, I would take the care-free angle a little deeper, and say that a tall, thin women evokes ethereal beauty, as Steve seems to imply.
ReplyDeleteIn dramatic contrast to the ideal of the Renaissance, Medieval beauties were usually long and lean, obviously implying that the beautiful were above the base pleasures of this world. The Medievals did get some things right.
"You've just explained the inexplicable appeal of Sex and The City to deluded women of all ages even though most men found those gals roughly as desirable than The Golden Girls"
ReplyDeleteCome on, you have to admit the character of Charlotte is pert and attractive.
Sarah Jessica...horse facey. Samantha, too sluty. Miranda, too bossy and lezzie.
Of course, by series' end (and esp. in the first movie)Chris Noth had such thinning hair and was so fat not even his money had me fantasizing about him any longer.
Remember that it's the clothes, the fashions, not the models, that are being sold on the runway.
ReplyDeleteWhen you put a voluptuous woman (large breasts, small waist, wide hips) in the fashions, the designs are no longer the focal point.
Think of a very young Sophia Loren on the runway. Think that body would let the fashions be the center of attention?
What about the simplest explanation?
ReplyDeleteClothes hang better on the tall, skinny and angular rather than the short, rotund and heavy.
Who cannot argue that long legs are infinitely more flattering of trousers, stockings, skirts etc than short dumpy legs?
Actually, it's rather difficult for persons of a big body build to do gymnastics at anything other than a comical level - it's all a matter of elementary mechanics, centers of mass, levers, weight to height ratios, moments etc.
ReplyDeleteFor similar reasons big people can never be successful horse jockeys.
It's about fertility-free attractiveness. Slim, pretty face, nice clothes, but no reminders of all the rest of the female body plan that's involved in mating, and bearing and rearing children.
ReplyDeleteBasically what Michael Blowhard said. Specifically, though, it's fertility that weighs women down, and they fantasize about being found desirable without facing the chance of getting pregnant and having to raise kids instead of being photographed all day.
Tallness may be a part of that, since taller women are less fertile. But I think that's more the fantasy of being able to clear the other women out of her path, those jealous bitches.
"When you put a voluptuous woman (large breasts, small waist, wide hips) in the fashions, the designs are no longer the focal point."
ReplyDeleteThat's even more true for lingerie and swimsuits, so those models should be even slimmer. But it's the other way: the Victoria's Secret models are more, not less, voluptuous.
That's because when women think about buying lingerie or swimsuits, they're no longer thinking about fertility-free attractiveness.
This is the part in their cycle when they wouldn't mind getting pregnant by an alpha male, and are eager to show off their fertility cues. There's also a seasonal effect -- they think about buying that stuff as the mating season begins.
The fertility-free fantasies are more for the majority of her cycle when she's not going to get pregnant, and for those times of the year when the mating season is done with, like fall-winter.
If choosing models were designed to minimize their distraction from the clothes, then models would have plain faces and hair. Yet they have pretty faces and nice hair. It's all part of the fantasy.
Also, models of men's clothing are not stick boys but usually athletic and muscular, with attractive faces, thick hair, etc. That's designed to sell an overall fantasy to men, not to emphasize the clothes per se.
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/07/30/world/asia/100000001692832/the-us-and-pakistan-relationship.html?ref=world
ReplyDeleteYou don’t happen to know of any relations back in Ireland, do you Steve?
I don't know what a 'pixie contest' is. But I do know that these girls are spectacular athletes.
ReplyDelete"You're a homo, Anonymous."
ReplyDeleteI AM NOT!!
The curves men desire and the "curves" women defend having are two different things.
"That's even more true for lingerie and swimsuits, so those models should be even slimmer. But it's the other way: the Victoria's Secret models are more, not less, voluptuous.”
ReplyDeleteI don’t know, I tend toward the opinion that a girl with a-cups is not the best qualified to show-off what a wonder bra can do.
The gymnast Maroney is pretty - exceedingly so in fact. She knows it too.
ReplyDeleteThe female swimmers look not unlike the space jockeys from 'Prometheus'.
Here is the greatest fashion commercial that's ever been made:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Sn8H42FZcI
I could write an entire book on what's going on here. In fact, maybe I will.
Time to reboot with the perfect woman:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3oxqmKGM5g
Don't find Blowhard's theory convincing at all.
ReplyDelete"Come on, you have to admit the character of Charlotte is pert and attractive.
ReplyDeleteSarah Jessica...horse facey. Samantha, too sluty. Miranda, too bossy and lezzie."
Hot is a mixture of attractiveness combined with hints of a warm and enthusiastic nature hence why Catherine Deneuve is extremely beautiful but not remotely hot while the Russian spy is very hot despire being only averagely attractive. Personally i'd say Charlotte is more in the Deneuve category - attractive but very unhot.
Further to your recent post on gender gaps at the Olympics: It occurs to me that the equestrian events are one of the only 'mixed' sex sports. Even the real athletes, the horses, are mares, stallions and geldings willy-nilly.
ReplyDeleteGP.
Nice theories. I'll present a complementary one: artificial scarcity.
ReplyDeletePretending that only impossibly tall and slim women can be models creates an aura of exclusivity, as if beauty was a super-rare thing that the fashion-consuming women don't have to feel threatened of.
This illusion of scarce beauty is probably more comforting to women than the cold hard fact that most non-obese 18-year-old girls are more bangable than these androgynous models (or the fashion-consuming women).
Fashion models look the way they do because that's what makes the clothes look best. Remember ultimately the goal is selling clothing to retailers.
ReplyDeleteModel bodies photograph well under even unflattering light like this:
http://images.teamsugar.com/files/usr/1/15111/widownload-1.preview_0.jpeg
And the tall lean bodies maximize the length of cloth that can drape (while minimizing womanly curves that would normally inturrupt that drape). Also their sharper facial features are generally more pleasing when photographed
Here's an unintentionally funny article by a guy who tries to be a fashion photographer for a day. His conclusion:
"For one thing, I had gone into this thinking that I wasn’t necessarily looking to shoot model “types,” that is, super skinny women with angular features. I reasoned that I didn’t consider such women particularly attractive, so why choose them? Alas, after just a few shoots, I found myself increasingly drawn to precisely that look. Sharp lines that divide a photograph look good, and a longer, more angular body does just that. But I didn’t really like the idea that even in a small way I was joining a culture that encourages eating disorders."
american goy:
ReplyDelete"And keeps women apopleptic because no healthy woman who doesn't chase the dragon can look that way."
american women are no longer healthy. perhaps they should be spending more time and effort chasing the dragon rather than paper pushing in some drone HR job.
"Today, the average American woman is 5’4″, has a waist size of 34-35 inches and weighs between 140-150 lbs, with a dress size of 12-14. Fifty years ago, the average woman was 5’3-4″ with a waist size of approximately 24-25″, she weighed about 120 lbs and wore a size 8."
http://blogs.webmd.com/pamela-peeke-md/2010/01/just-what-is-an-average-womans-size-anymore.html
Last Olympics when I first saw the trampoline contests, it was very heartening: A contest for the girls who were gymnasts but grew into women. Watching them leap 20 feet into the air, though, gravity is overwhelming on the spectator's mind in a way it's not when the gynmasts are flipping around only three or four feet off the ground.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. This article seems to be made for comment as I have experience in the fashion trade and girls gymnastics. The writer is correct about the fantasy, in addition the grim look one finds on the runway is demanded by the clients- no smiling, and the lack of voluptious figures is to keep the models from being sexually threatening to the audience.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the largest factor in gymnast's attrition is the discovery of boys- they want a social life and it is in conflict with the rigors of practice.
Specifically, though, it's fertility that weighs women down, and they fantasize about being found desirable without facing the chance of getting pregnant and having to raise kids instead of being photographed all day.
ReplyDeleteThat's a bunch of Frankfurt School bullshit.
Real women want nothing more than to have kids and stay at home with them.
Even most feminazis, too - they just know that they can't break ranks and admit it.
The U.S. women's swimming team is chock full of large, unattractive girls. Not all of them of course, but many, including the 2 big stars Missy Franklin and Allison Schmitt. Some of them, after they win, open their mouths and have deep voices like men. Ugghhh...
ReplyDeleteAlso, the East Asians have made massive inroads this Olympics into swimming. There could be an East Asian domination in 8-12 years.
Is there anyone of the female persuasion who reads and comments on this blog?
ReplyDeleteWhile finding a lot of the above quite interesting and perhaps even insightful, I think it would be useful to have at least some women chime in on the issue.
This thread reminds me of the old "Saturday Night Live" sketch with Dan Ackroyd of two or three brutishly male chauvinist types in a TV studio on the discussion program entitled "Solving Women's Problems"...
" . . .the champagne-and-cocaine fun parts of being a grownup woman."
ReplyDeleteEvery woman's birthright, right?
Well, it's a charming theory (charmingly, albeit louchely, written) but as the initial anonymous suggests, the most clearly Occam's razor-ed explanation would be, it's how gays want them.
Speaking of pixies and razors: I'm fascinated by the persistence of that modernist heresy, the pixie cut.
A twenty-year old or under can look striking in one, admittedly; but surely pixie cuts do not signal "health" in a way to delight any heterosexual man. Just think of Mia Farrow in "Rosemary's Baby"-- the effect is of a chic concentration camp inmate.
Yet in pictures of "Sassoon Academy" or some such, it seems all the stylists busy themselves doing is chopping off the hair of young women, until their heads look like abstract landscaping.
Since women noteworthily cry over haircuts, I can't help wonder if there isn't some good old, unmentionable male homosexual misogynist sado-masochism at work.
I'll never forget the story in one of my mom's "Elle"s about a champion hairstylist who would motion models off to the side,at a beach shoot, say, saying he needed to fix an inch, and then snip snip snip them till they were left with whatever bare sort of 'do he had dreamed up, on the spur of the moment, for them.
He explained: "They cry at first, but in the end, they knew they had to have it."
Though I recall him being an avowed heterosexual, somehow.
Veblen thought conspicuous consumers (the idle rich trend setters) disliked anything that reminded them (perhaps their unconscious mind in psycho babble) of hard work and especially agricultural work. Little pixies that effortlessly fly though the air and are clearly unable to do anything useful, and especially get pregnant (almost as bad as agricultural work), are perfect. Anorexic giantesses are the next best (most useless) things. Large African women are the most frightening (Veblen specifically mentions them) to the idle rich as they are clearly built to do manual work, get pregnant, and even worse their dark skin means they are well suited to agricultural work, the most offensive kind of menial labor to the idle rich. The correct term for something expensive but useless is a Veblen good, which describes the entire Olympics pretty well.
ReplyDeleteVeblen thought conspicuous consumers (the idle rich trend setters) disliked anything that reminded them (perhaps their unconscious mind in psycho babble) of hard work and especially agricultural work. Little pixies that effortlessly fly though the air and are clearly unable to do anything useful, and especially get pregnant (almost as bad as agricultural work), are perfect. Anorexic giantesses are the next best (most useless) things. Large African women are the most frightening (Veblen specifically mentions them) to the idle rich as they are clearly built to do manual work, get pregnant, and even worse their dark skin means they are well suited to agricultural work, the most offensive kind of menial labor to the idle rich. The correct term for something expensive but useless is a Veblen good, which describes the entire Olympics pretty well.
ReplyDeleteMichael Blowhard's theory is too clever. Thin girls aren't so much ethereal and carefree, as thin. Thinness is the fantasy. Not spiritual lightness or whatever, but mundane thinness, as in wanting to lose five or ten or fifty pounds so men will find you attractive again like they used to, like your husband used to, when you were thinner and younger.
ReplyDeleteAnd how does the "young" fit in there, anyway, Mr. Blowhard? If you're looking for carefree, you'll get your models from one of those pleasant retirement communities. Smiling, retired ladies in golf carts - that's what will sell fashion magazines!
If the fantasy of mundane, physical thinness isn't clever enough a reason, then I'll give a fancy pop psychology interpretation: Very thin fashion models are in control of their lives. These girls don't pig out on ice cream or cookies like you do, Ms. Magazine reader, or if they do, then at least they have the self-discipline to purge. Unlike you, they're in control. There, that's the pop psychology. But really, I think it's just about being young, thin, and attractive.
o/t - same old same old ...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/9444289/Women-in-UK-engineering-jobs-worryingly-low.html
"The number of women in UK engineering jobs is worryingly low, at just 6pc, new research shows."
All those women who really want to be engineers but are put off by the sexism.
"Benner says she really enjoys her job and has never encountered prejudice because of her gender."
Oh.
Who cannot argue that long legs are infinitely more flattering of trousers, stockings, skirts etc than short dumpy legs?
ReplyDeleteBut women do have "short dumpy legs", as you put it. You might as well have written "I don't find most women very attractive".
Women are short (five foot four inches on average). Women have shorter legs in proportion to their height than do men. And women have greater body fat than do men.
Saying that a tall, slim, long-legged, low-body-fat woman is the essence of feminine beauty is a lot like saying that a short, pudgy guy with man-boobs is the essence of masculinity.
"In Romania, they speak of a man so virile, so potent, that to spend a night with such a man is to enter a world of such sensual delights most women dare not dream of. This man is known as the "Blogger". You may write witty commentary, Mr. Blowhard, but you are no Blogger."
ReplyDeleteJerry wins the thread.
In dramatic contrast to the ideal of the Renaissance, Medieval beauties were usually long and lean, obviously implying that the beautiful were above the base pleasures of this world.
ReplyDeleteIn most Medieval painting, everybody is exaggeratedly long and lean, men and women both. It was just the style of painting at the time.
There's something to the larger point though. Tall, thin women look androgynous and even a bit asexual. So do tall, thin, men. There probably is a desire to reject base sexuality built into the admiration of androgynous-looking people. "He (or she) is not ruled by his (or her) hormones".
Agnostic said,
ReplyDelete"That's even more true for lingerie and swimsuits, so those models should be even slimmer. But it's the other way: the Victoria's Secret models are more, not less, voluptuous."
Duh!!!
Victoria's Secret has a different consumer than Haute couture. It sells to men's fantasy's, not women's.
He buys her trashy stuff from VS for her birthday for HIS fantasies. Most women resent such gifts received on HER birthday, because lingerie, esp. slutty lingerie from a place like VS is a gift from him for HIM, not for HER and she knows this.
I tend to think that the 5'10" 115-lb models are a result of gay men designers, but not because they are trying to find girls who look like teenage boys. I think it is because a gay man isn't necessarily interested in designing clothing that makes a typical woman look attractive. having no appreciation for the female form itself, they design clothes that are interesting as clothes, not as clothing that will enhance the beauty of the woman wearing it.
ReplyDeleteMost haute couture fashions might be breathtaking works of art on the hanger, but look like a sack of fancy potatoes on a normal woman - hence the need for runway models who have no shape of their own to ruin the lines of the clothing.
speaking as a woman with a very hourglass shaped figure, I find most modern styles do little to show it off. If I want to turn heads, I wear either actual vintage clothes or modern copies of 1930s, 40s or 50s styles. It seems like clothing back then was designed to flatter female figures, whereas the majority of modern styles make a hourglass-shaped figure look dumpy.
makes me wonder if fashion prior to the mid60s had more straight men designing?
I am alone in thinking Kim Kardashian's face is a masculine type? Do an image search for Akhnaten. Is the next crop of strippers going to look like the horse-faced warrior king?
ReplyDeleteThe most universal comeback in the 200,000 year history of male communication
ReplyDeleteJust off vacation, Truth is a bit rusty. The most universal male comback is, "I'll kick your f*****' ass, little man!"
So why is it that men prefer to watch other men play sports?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteVictoria's Secret has a different consumer than Haute couture. It sells to men's fantasy's, not women's. He buys her trashy stuff from VS for her birthday for HIS fantasies. Most women resent such gifts received on HER birthday, because lingerie, esp. slutty lingerie from a place like VS is a gift from him for HIM, not for HER and she knows this.
Sorry, this is way off. Victoria's Secret is not Frederick's of Hollywood. They sell quality stuff. A lot of women--my wife, my teenaged daughters--buy underwear there.
Victoria's Secret has a different consumer than Haute couture. It sells to men's fantasy's, not women's.
ReplyDeleteHe buys her trashy stuff from VS for her birthday for HIS fantasies. Most women resent such gifts received on HER birthday, because lingerie, esp. slutty lingerie from a place like VS is a gift from him for HIM, not for HER and she knows this.
This is incorrect. It is overwhelmingly women who buy VS, not men.
speaking as a woman with a very hourglass shaped figure, I find most modern styles do little to show it off. If I want to turn heads, I wear either actual vintage clothes or modern copies of 1930s, 40s or 50s styles. It seems like clothing back then was designed to flatter female figures, whereas the majority of modern styles make a hourglass-shaped figure look dumpy.
ReplyDeleteThink yourself lucky you're not stuck wearing male clothes, which are seemingly designed to be as ugly and shapeless as possible. The way trends are going, I half expect American men to be wearing burqas in another decade. They already wear "shorts" which end half-way between the ankle and knee.
Lucius asked about pixie cuts "A twenty-year old or under can look striking in one, admittedly; but surely pixie cuts do not signal "health" in a way to delight any heterosexual man. Just think of Mia Farrow in "Rosemary's Baby"-- the effect is of a chic concentration camp inmate."
ReplyDeletePixie cuts are the meritocracy of hairstyles. Only a very beautiful, feminine looking woman with large eyes and delicate features can carry them off. They also require a slender yet nicely curved figure to avoid looking like either a gold ball atop an egg or a 14 year old boy. Halle Berry can pull it off, but the rest of us can't.
Alas, we ladies are experts at self delusion. We think how nice a chic, breezy short cut will be in hot weather, we imagine we will somehow look like Winona Ryder, and we don't listen to our male friends who insist long hair is more attractive. We allow some charming gay guy to shear our locks and are horrified to find we don't looke cute and edgy, we look like lumpy men or angry lesbians, and we have to suffer a year or more of mulletty growing out bad hair.
Pixie cuts are a bd, bad idea for 99% of women.
This is a pretty duh statement to make, but fashion modeling represents the ideal job for a lot of women whether they’d care to admit it or not. Of course, what they have in mind are the two dozen or so women that are featured regularly in Vogue and major ad campaigns for companies like Estee Lauder and Dolce and Gabanna, not the ladies that appear in the J. Jill catalog.
ReplyDeleteInternational travel, a six figure or more salary, the high likelihood of getting a rich celebrity consort (even one who may be your own age !), great clothes, shoes, people blowing air up you a** 24/7 and all for being blessed in the genetic lottery and showing up. It appeals to our laziness and sense of aesthetics. Models like to whine how hard the job is interviews, and how short the span of their careers are, but most women reading that are thinking “I can handle that.”
Fashion magazines all represent some kind of idea of aesthetic utopia for women. They are like the film of Breakfast at Tiffanys where you don’t see Audrey Hepburn giving b.j.s to her clients, but she’s in a great Givenchy dress and ends up with a boy, probably gay, in the end ,anyway.
Has anyone here had any personal experience with a fashion model? Doesn't seem like it. I'd love to have some fashion models sound off on their perception of the lifestyle of fat ol' nerds.
ReplyDeleteMy job had me neck-deep in Ford models for a while, and some of you folks' perceptions of models are waaaay off.
I've been around alot of them, and though I know purging goes on, none of the girls I was around did it. They generally ate whatever they wanted, usually average portions, took vitamins, worked out 3 times a week, and that was all there was to their regimen.
Ya'll read a few news stories and think it's the same for the majority of models. That's not the case, by my experience.
One girl I dated was 5'7" at 110, she ate what she wanted (I watched her down many a cheesecake), took dance classes, drank vodka and orange juice, smoked pot once in a while, and she always had a nice day.
I remember walking by a department store window with her. They were changing the clothes in the window and mannequins had been stripped. I said, "holy cow! those mannequins look exactly like you do naked! that's amazing." She said, "That's why they pay me the big bucks." The girl was a very happy camper-had an amazing rack and perfect ass, no cellulite, btw-and yes, life seemed to make sure everything went her way most of the time, annoying as it is for the rest of us.
Being born an ethereal-looking princess, and living like one, for no particular good reason related to working hard for it, pisses people off.
One girl I dated in NYC at the time, also had her face plastered on just about every bus stop in the city. Imagine waiting for a bus to go on a date with a girl who's on a poster at the bus stop you're waiting at. She was only 22. She had an apartment in Paris and Madrid, as well as NYC.
Living like a jetty little princess.
Everywhere, ever day, people kissed her ass. Every man thought this was "the one" for them, if they could just get rid of me. Every woman in her age bracket would act like they weren't worthy to be around her. It's like they all went into "bridesmaid mode" around her, making sure she was happy if they had anything to do with it. Most women were in awe of her, and did little to hide it. Talk as much shit as you want, but that was almost always the case. You guys KISS her ass when she's there in front of you, and talk shit later.
Reminds me of the line in "As Good as it Gets:"
"Some of us have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good. "
Most of the ignorant vitriol against models comes down to that.
Bow down, nerds. You aren't fooling anyone but your fat old overeating, zitty-faced, average-looking selves, while the good lord's chosen pixie girls fly right over you. Laughing, hugging, living and loving their wonderful lives.
Happy Photog
Wait, so, men look at porn, with a man screwing a woman, they're thinking about what they'd like to do/with the couple - and not imagining being the man screwing the woman? Thus, the only truly hetero porn is solo woman/lesbo porn?
ReplyDeleteOkay.
Tall people are more iconic. A slender build makes you look taller.
ReplyDeleteI'd start with this and go from there.
:Think yourself lucky you're not stuck wearing male clothes, which are seemingly designed to be as ugly and shapeless as possible. The way trends are going, I half expect American men to be wearing burqas in another decade. They already wear 'shorts' which end half-way between the ankle and knee."
ReplyDeleteThe one body part that seems to stay fairly in shape and is quite attractive in most men past a certain age is his thighs, yet those damn long, baggy "shorts" popularized first by prison inmates, then gang members the cities, then NBA teams are the ugliest damn things I've seen on the male form.
Black guys look even more ridiculous than whites, Hispanics, and Asians wearing them because the length and bagginess of them only serves to accentuate the skinny calves and ankles of black men.
Ooooooo, yes, those pants gotta go, but they've been around a long time now...along with the ugly, ugly, ugly baggy. sloppy, unattractive Major League Baseball uniforms. What God-awful styles!
I recall when MLB players were fun to look at. Now, blah.
"Victoria's Secret is not Frederick's of Hollywood. They sell quality stuff."
ReplyDeleteNo, VS is NOt Frederick's of Hollywood, but their stuff is NOT top quality. A few years ago they started offering lower priced items, and it shows in the lack of quality of the fabrics and in the types of styles they offer. Pop culture, you know?
Tall people are more iconic.
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly are you trying to say there? I'm assuming that it is not "Tall people look like statues".
Has anyone here had any personal experience with a fashion model? Doesn't seem like it. I'd love to have some fashion models sound off on their perception of the lifestyle of fat ol' nerds.
ReplyDeleteThis may be a mind-blowing fact to you, but 99% of Americans are neither fashion models not fat ol' nerds.
My experience with nerds has been that they tend to be skinny rather than fat.
My job had me neck-deep in Ford models for a while ..
And I get the impression that you're bragging about yourself and not the models.
One girl I dated in NYC at the time, also had her face plastered on just about every bus stop in the city. Imagine waiting for a bus to go on a date with a girl who's on a poster at the bus stop you're waiting at. She was only 22. She had an apartment in Paris and Madrid, as well as NYC.
And the point of this story is her, or you? I don't think anyone is unaware of the fact that fashion models have their faces on billboards, or that they make a lot of money.
I remember walking by a department store window with her. They were changing the clothes in the window and mannequins had been stripped. I said, "holy cow! those mannequins look exactly like you do naked! that's amazing."
ReplyDeleteI've read your works before. Bright Lights, Big City, yeah?
Blowhard's "theory" sounds like unfocused verbiage to me.
ReplyDeleteMaking supermodels as unlike ordinary women as possible allows ordinary women to fantasise about their lifestyles without being overcome by the seething female jealousy that wells up in most women as soon as they're anywhere near another woman as little as 1% more attractive than them.
If models were naturally pretty, naturally curvy girl-next-door types then the majority of women would simply loathe them. And men would of course be (at least a little) more interested in them.
The female interest in fashion models is something that's beyond the realm of male understanding. A little like weddings - the majority of British women treated the wedding of William and Kate much as their menfolk would have treated a football world cup final that their team was playing in,
Also, the point re: ethereal femininity, or at least femaleness, is correct. Think of the elves in the Lord of the Rings trilogy
Has anyone here had any personal experience with a fashion model?
ReplyDeleteWell, I knew a woman who didn't want to move to NYC, though Eileen Ford personally came to the west coast to recruit her. By the time I knew her she was 43. One night we were in a restaurant and two guys said to me, "how did you luck out?"
Back to the intersection of fashion and the Olympics - I think it's noteworthy in in several sports - gymnastics, skating, beach volleyball - the female contestants wear outfits much skimpier than those of their male counterparts.
ReplyDeleteIf the Olympics really wants gender equity, maybe they need to force women to wear shorts and a tee shirt, just like the guys.
"And the point of this story is her, or you? I don't think anyone is unaware of the fact that fashion models have their faces on billboards, or that they make a lot of money."
ReplyDeleteThe point of the story was her, and I was just sharing what her lifestyle was like, and mine, because it was unique for people our ages-and it rocked!
I could go on all day. The lifestyle is so choice. Any dance club in the city, no matter how exclusive, didn't make us wait. We were ushered in past huge mobs of people waiting to get in. Some glaring at us. Some looking on with envy... "why can't I be so fucking lucky?"
I'm also saying being a hot model isn't always a walk in the park. Imagine every single day of your life, no matter where you go, people making a fuss over you. Men and women alike. Every... freaking... day.
You take a cab, the cabbie has to say something. You go to soho to buy some clothes, the clerk has to say something. Go to a restaurant, the waitress has to say something about her. People on the street had to say something.
Every. Day.
She'd try to dress down. Put her hair in a bun, wear a shitty sweatshirt and ugly glasses. It never worked. God help her if she dressed up. The world went nuts.
Just saying, tho their lifestyles are generally awesome, their problems are particular to them, and most of you can't relate to them. Most of you have no idea of the actual shit they have to deal with, and anorexia rates low on the list for most of them.
Some of you might say why not dismiss the modelling industry and get a real job... Yeah, as if you nerds wouldn't be swarming her, being a pain in her ass every day at her job. She'd be dealing with the a lot of the same stupid shit, people acting like idiots around her, for a fraction of the pay.
If any of you actually get an opportunity to socialize with a model, just try not to be an ass. Most of you can't. You say you can, but if she gives you any real attention, you turn to oatmeal. I've seen it happen too many times to believe otherwise.
Same goes for male models. The most feminist woman will turn to goo in front of a striking male model, and start rationalizing any behavior if they think that they have a remote chance of getting into his circle, and into his pants-which is also, btw, why a lot of male models treat women like shit, since they act like shit in their presence, with no self-respect whatsoever. I've seen that happen waaaay too many times. Women are easily just as skanky as any man, if you just "turn up the volume" a little. They try to act like they don't give a shit, unless they think they have a chance in hell. Then all hell breaks loose, and they act like starving field slaves vying for the chance to be house n*gger.
So sniff away all you want, nerds. When it comes to criticizing working models, most of you don't know what you're talking about, and probably never will. Go ahead and act like you know better.
You don't.
Photog
"I've read your works before. Bright Lights, Big City, yeah?"
ReplyDeleteSome high-falutin' lives are wretched. Many aren't. No matter what Tama Janowitz or her posse of junkies would like you to believe.
You don't hear the good stories, because you don't run in their circles to get to hear them, much less participate.
Get used to the idea. Life ain't fair. Some folks win lotto genetically, and have great lives because of it.
They aren't junkies, or drunks, or vomiting up their lunch salads while trying to keep up appearances. They have their problems. It's just that theirs usually don't relate much to yours, never will, and to think you can tie up their lives in a nice little bow to make you feel better is arrogant and silly.
They're human beings like you, but they don't have the same problems, and you can't relate to the problems they have, which is the opposite problem of being a social outcast.
Reminds me of that twilight zone episode of a comedian who wished everyone would always laugh at his jokes. All of a sudden, everyone was laughing at everything he said. After a short time, it wasn't very funny.
For a model it's what if everyone idealized you all the time, and talked shit behind your back all the time. Who the fuck do you trust? Now, go out in the world, and make some close "friends."
Photog
8/2/12 3:33 PM
ReplyDeleteTL;DR
What is most interesting for me is not women's gymnastics, but men's gymnastics, which is an image of power, dynamism, and freedom, and the guys all have the best physiques a man can have. They are far superior in looks and performance to women's gymnastics.
ReplyDeleteDon't blame gay men for female emaciation, blame those healthy hourglass women. Wikipedia says that only 8% of women posses that body type. How many girls starve themselves in an effort to reach the perfect waist to hip ratio? Are models sacrificing the breast and buttocks just to get that concave stomach.
ReplyDeleteDo you think Gisele Bundchen would feel safe leaving Tom Brady alone with Roselyn Sanchez?
BTW I checked out the women Olympians who some claim are hot - they were handsome women.
^ seconded.
ReplyDelete"I'm such a big shot Photog, I hang around obscure blogs trying to shame fat ol' nerds. Aren't I a special snowflake?"
Bright Lights, Big City is an American novel by Jay McInerney, published by Vintage Books on August 12, 1984.
ReplyDeleteIt is written about a character's time spent caught up in, and notably escaping from, the mid-1980s New York City fast lane. It is one of the few well-known English-language novels written in the second person,[1] and its main character is unnamed. He is a writer who, by day, works as a fact checker for a high-brow magazine—likely based on Harpers or The New Yorker, where McInerney himself once worked as a fact checker—for which he had once hoped to write. By night, he is a party-goer, a cocaine user, seeking to lose himself in the hedonism of the 1980s yuppie party scene, often going to the nightclub Heartbreak.[2] His wife, Amanda, recently left him and he copes with this by pretending nothing happened and telling no one that she's gone. Initially hopeful that she will return someday, he eventually resorts to searching for her at a fashion event. He obsesses over every item she owned in his apartment, every modeling photo and every club she visited, even repeatedly visiting a mannequin based on her. Also, his partying is affecting his work and he appears to be on the verge of getting fired by his temperamental boss.
"Just off vacation, Truth is a bit rusty. The most universal male comback is, "I'll kick your f*****' ass, little man!"
ReplyDeleteNo that's after he provides a clever retort to your ghey insinuation.
Some folks win lotto genetically, and have great lives because of it.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt. You don't strike me as being one of those people.
The point of the story was her, and I was just sharing what her lifestyle was like, and mine, because it was unique for people our ages-and it rocked!
As I said, nobody is unaware that fashion models have their faces on bill-boards, or that they get paid a lot of money. So the point of that story was you.
I don't see the relevance of the lifestyle of a fashion model to anything being discussed on this thread.
She'd try to dress down. Put her hair in a bun, wear a shitty sweatshirt and ugly glasses. It never worked. God help her if she dressed up. The world went nuts.
I am supposed to care about this, why?
If any of you actually get an opportunity to socialize with a model, just try not to be an ass.
You seem to be incapable of not being an ass while socializing with people on a blog, so I have trouble believing that you're Mr Charming Good Manners in the real world. Unless, perhaps, you're trying to score with one of those models you worship.
They're human beings like you, but they don't have the same problems
ReplyDeleteThey don't have to deal with the IRS? They don't get sick? They don't get old and die? Their family members never get sick and die? They never buy products which turn out to be crap? They never get stuck in traffic jams? They never fight with their boy-friends? They never get food poisoning? Mosquitoes don't bite them? Muggers avoid them? Exactly what sort of problems do you think we riff-raff deal with in our lives?
So far you've told us nothing about models which could not be gleaned from ten minutes watching TV. (Which I suspect is where your own "knowledge" is coming from) You've told us volumes about yourself though, and none of it is very flattering.
My take is that Steve and Agnostic are correct.
ReplyDeleteI would not categorize myself as a fashion magazine consumer, however. I did love seventeen in my early teens, but grew to hate how political it was.
Older, I would buy a magazine only about once a year (this was just before more clothes-focused mags like "Lucky"). I absolutely loved the fashions and what not, but the scene and fantasy they offered were a nightmare to me. I found the people and scene so materialistic and emotionally stunted. The politics were there, but it was not nearly as awful as the vapidness. I found the magazines so depressing that it would take another year or so to forget how much I hated them and then some adorable dress on a cover would draw me in.
What is galling about these discussions is that two things that are true:
1. Women are more prone to herd and submissive behavior. And
2. gays dominate in fashion.
Are taken to such extremes as to deny any autonomous desire and behavior to women.
Even worse than implying that these female consumers are brainwashed, some of the men are angry about who the top models are in fashion. To make it somehow even worse, they don't make their case based upon who women really want to see (but have been thwarted), but on who they think is hot.
Bottom line: there's a lack of empathy for the female consumers.
Also, in case someone didn't realize it:
ReplyDeletethe commenter who brought up the Frankfurt school is a Moby troll.
the commenter who brought up the Frankfurt school is a Moby troll.
ReplyDeleteWhat's a "Moby troll"?
"What is most interesting for me is not women's gymnastics, but men's gymnastics, which is an image of power, dynamism, and freedom, and the guys all have the best physiques a man can have. They are far superior in looks and performance to women's gymnastics"
ReplyDeleteI like watching male gymnastics and yes, the men have nice physiques, but when they leave the mat and stand next to a guy of just average height, I realize just how tiny they are. They are not just well-built short men, they_are_tiny.
It's kind of like not realizing how tall NBA players are until you go down to courside and stand next to one.
One final point:
ReplyDeleteI suspect my shunning of those magazines was because I embraced and eagerly anticipated motherhood and being a housewife. Trendy items and bar-hopping/night club patronizing can only be "vapid" to such a woman, I suppose.
True to what Steve has said in the past, I eagerly embrace home decor magazines after marriage.
Re Anon. who said he was in with Ford models and dated one. Petite women are 5'4", and runway girls are 5'10-11". A 5'7" is very, very unusual. Of course she might be a swimsuit specialist. The runway girls ideally are size "0" or "2" with a narrow chest. Shorter women tend to have the best shapes, the curvy classic.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the pixie haircuts, most women do not have good thick hair, and it lays too flat on the head if they keep it long (heavy). Most long hair is better left behind in childhood. Americans are not much interested in looking well dressed, for whatever reason. Just go to the mall- hair tooo short, overweight, dull. Add lipflops and a cigarette- BIRTH CONTROL!!
Sir Mix-a-lot covered most of this years ago....
ReplyDelete@Photag:
*Joe Pecsi voice* Ok..ok..ok....I get it. You've dated supermodels.
Oh! One more thing. Yes there are exceptional beauties that can cause a hush when they enter a room. They are as rare as a someone seven foot tall.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteActually, it's rather difficult for...it's all a matter of elementary mechanics, centers of mass, levers, weight to height ratios, moments etc."
1st soldier: Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
King Arthur: Not at all. They could be carried.
1st soldier: What? A swallow carrying a coconut?
King Arthur: It could grip it by the husk!
1st soldier: It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut.
King Arthur: Well, it doesn't matter. Will you go and tell your master that Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here?
1st soldier: Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?
King Arthur: Please!
"I am alone in thinking Kim Kardashian's face is a masculine type?"
ReplyDelete- Wasn't that the same guy who complained about curves on women and insisted he wasn't gay?
BTW Truth, it's 'gay', not 'ghey'. None of this 'take back the word for your group' crap here.
Photog, you sound like a socially intelligent man who understood those ladies' problems. They were lucky to have you and you reaped the benefits from being understanding. Gentlemen, take note!
ReplyDeleteGloria
Are the women athletes' broad shoulders due mostly to genetics or to their training?
ReplyDeleteWomen are short (five foot four inches on average). Women have shorter legs in proportion to their height than do men. And women have greater body fat than do men.
ReplyDeleteSaying that a tall, slim, long-legged, low-body-fat woman is the essence of feminine beauty is a lot like saying that a short, pudgy guy with man-boobs is the essence of masculinity.
Thank you for some common sense. I can't understand the cult of the tall, thin "hardbodied" female in America, except as some form of sublimated homosexuality. Or perhaps as a legacy of our pioneering roots, from when women had to be physically tough to survive.
Photog's comments here match my anecdotal experience. Well, actually, just one anecdote: a former roommate of mine whose sister was a fashion model. She wasn't famous, but she made a really good living at it. From my roommate's description, she seemed pretty happy. She ate whatever she wanted and didn't gain weight. She got paid ridiculous amounts of money to fly out to some exotic location for a few days and get her picture taken. She always had millionaires chasing after her. Seems like a pretty good life for a girl in her twenties.
ReplyDeleteAlso, just to clarify, when I wrote about models' eating habits I was of course describing the perception of the magazines' readers.
I once read about some study that measured the association between females' looks and their subjective happiness, or maybe it was specifically happiness in their Relationships. It claimed that the happiest girls weren't the stunningly beautiful ones. To paraphrase, it said that the happiest girls were the 7s and 8s, not the 9s and 10s. The 8s got plenty of attention, but they didn't worry as much as the 10s that people were interested in them only for their looks.
Dartangnan19 said...
ReplyDelete"Re Anon. who said he was in with Ford models and dated one. Petite women are 5'4", and runway girls are 5'10-11". A 5'7" is very, very unusual"
Not true, and you don't know what you're talking about. I knew a 5'7" print model at Ford. 17 years old, and a 250k a year income. Oh, and she had a fat ass! It didn't keep her off the cover of Italian Vogue, Seventeen magazine, and many others. Plenty of stories like hers. I knew plenty of Ford Models with fat asses. They do print work. If you have the face, and are thin above the waist, you're in business.
Photog
Looks like it's time for more schoolin'...
ReplyDelete*They don't have to deal with the IRS?*
"Accounting is weird. My agent got me an accountant so I don't have to deal with it.
He makes my credit card work good! Where's the Cayman Islands?"
*They don't get sick?*
If you mean like you... no. They don't get athletes foot or ringworm. I know. It's amazing.
*They don't get old and die?*
Model: Hey anonymous. I'm sorry for calling you at 4 in the morning, but
I'm bummed out about getting old and dying. Will you talk me down?
Ooooh, you are SUCH a good friend! Anyway, blah blah blah...
CUT TO:
Anonymous masturbating.
*Their family members never get sick and die?*
"Oh my god, my grandma's dead! Oh! My god!"
ring ring!
"Hello? My dad died. I KNOW! Thank you for saying that. I KNOW! Paris next week? How much? Really? Okay!"
*They never buy products which turn out to be crap?*
"Oh my god! Look at my hair! I'll never let them pay me to use John Freida products AGAIN!"
*They never get stuck in traffic jams?*
ring ring!
"Anonymous... I'm stuck in traffic! Will you talk to me for a while? Oh, you are SUCH a good friend! Anyway, blah blah blah...
CUT TO:
Anonymous masturbating.
*They never fight with their boy-friends?*
"Anonymous! My boyfriend broke up with me! Will you cheer me up? Cool! You are my BEST male FRIEND! Anyway, blah blah blah...
CUT TO:
Anonymous trying to masturbate unsuccessfully.
*They never get food poisoning? Mosquitoes don't bite them? Muggers avoid them? Exactly what sort of problems do you think we riff-raff deal with in our lives?*
"OMG, I lOVE my Soho loft. I could swing on a trapeez in here. Welp, time to get out and about!"
ring ring!
"Hello, Juan? Can you bring the limo over? I need to work out. My personal trainer
is waay up on the east side. Next to 14th street. Can you hang out and around till I'm done? Gotta meet my new boyfriend at the Four Seasons. Groovy! See you in a mims!"
*So far you've told us nothing about models which could not be gleaned from ten minutes watching TV. (Which I suspect is where your own "knowledge" is coming from) You've told us volumes about yourself though, and none of it is very flattering.*
Oh, look at you! You're speaking for everyone now. Because if you're confused, it
must mean everyone is! I like that you try to imagine that. It's funny.
Well, this marks my last post to you, ya lil' nerdiac.
Have fun doing doing that video game thing or whatever you do!
Photog
Aaron, you... DO know what you're talking about!
ReplyDeleteI'm just sick of so many people talking shit about high-end professional models. They only hear about the mercenary shitheads. Many more of them are the nicest, well mannered girls you'll ever hope to meet, who are 18 years old and rich.
Some watch their diets and exercise. Some eat whatever they want, exercise when they feel like it, and are still skinny as a rail. Most don't party hard because there's only so much shit makeup can cover, and they'll lose work.
When discussing the weight of models, he average weight of an american female, or male for that matter is irrelevant, since we're some of the fattest miserable fucks outside a Pennsylvania pig farm.
Instead of women railing against models making them feel ashamed, they should rail against women who lie all the time:
"I just look at food, and I gain 10 pounds!"
No, liar. You eat a pint of Haggen Daaz alone in bed at 2 in the morning all month and you gain 10 pounds. Get it right.
Photog
"- Wasn't that the same guy who complained about curves on women and insisted he wasn't gay?"
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you misunderstood me. Women who claim to have "curves" are usually defending their beer bellies, rolls and ripples. I much prefer sculpted B cups filled with lovely glands to double Ds filled with adipose, and covered in stretch marks, resting on a shelf furnished by the stomach. Is that gay?
Is your doctor gay for telling you to lose 10,20,30,40 lbs.? Are all insurance actuaries gay because their height/weight charts don't respect your "curves"?
Photog -
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of the work of Roissy/Heartiste, Roosh, Mystery, et al?
Does that sort of hyper-cynicism work on the supermodels?
Or have they heard it so many times that they just roll their eyes?
Thanks.
I think being tall is exclusively a woman's concept of beauty, I rarely hear a man commenting on a woman's height. I guess this supports Blowhard's theory. After all, petite women make a man feel bigger, in every way.
ReplyDeleteHave fun doing doing that video game thing or whatever you do!
ReplyDeleteYup. You have fun with your Walter Mitty Fantasy Life in which you are the friend and consort of rich and beautiful young women. Try not to plagiarize Jay McInerney in the future.
Anonymous masturbating.
More of those fantastic social skills you were bragging about having.
"Women are short (five foot four inches on average). Women have shorter legs in proportion to their height than do men. And women have greater body fat than do men."
ReplyDelete"Only a male intellect clouded by the sexual drive could call the stunted, narrow-shouldered, broad-hipped and short-legged sex the fair sex."
"three brutishly male chauvinist types in a TV studio on the discussion program entitled "Solving Women's Problems"..."
which they keep blaming on men. SO at least give men a chance to diagnose it?
"Or perhaps as a legacy of our pioneering roots, from when women had to be physically tough to survive. "
That argument sounds palatable to the "really long lasting effects of slavery" crowd. And "poor women had to suffer so much" crowd can for one have some real grievance.
"She said, "That's why they pay me the big bucks." The girl was a very happy camper"
brainwashed by patriarchy!!
"Thus, the only truly hetero porn is solo woman/lesbo porn?"
and POV porn, keep up with the times.
"but 99% of Americans are neither fashion models not fat ol' nerds."
You get the useless statistics award, captain obvious.
"CUT TO:
Anonymous masturbating."
HBD crowd has it's perfect anime mistresses, thank you.
Channeling Whiskey, most women HATE HATE HATE tall slender women.
ReplyDeleteMy girlfriend, who just turned fifty, is 5'9" and 127 lbs. People say she looks like she's in her early thirties. Her B cups, on her body, look much larger (one huge upside that thin women have is that their boobs mostly stay in place in their old age). Even at her age, Spandex is a friend. Like the aforementioned model that Fashion Boy wrote about, it's all about the Punnett Square lottery and metabolism; she eats about 4,000 calories a day and works out 3 days a week.
She eats her lunch in her office to escape the malevolent glares from her overweight, constantly-dieting coworkers (she's a nurse case manager working in a department with 25 other women) nibbling on their salads while she's scarfing down a steak and cheese sub. With fries. It gets worse when she's out for fun, as couture is designed with women like her in mind and it only emphasizes the difference between her and her pudgy sisters.
The latest meme, pushed by Dove soap to make the excess avoirdupois sorority feel better about themselves, is "Healthy is the New Sexy". The print ad juxtaposes a gaggle of Victoria's Secret models with a collection of plus-size models in lingerie. A woman friend posted the ad to her Facebook page with the usual screed about "healthy" bodies. Following were the usual lockstep reinforcement by her woman friends and good-natured chiding from the guys. Then one poor guy posted that the Dove girls needed to be chased around a hot attic, and it got VERY ugly. I asked why we couldn't just love them all, and my FB friend immediately posted that "He dates a bone rack" and the abuse shifted to me, mostly along the lines that REAL men dated "healthy" women. So I had to ask how many of these women could bench their body weight like my "unhealthy" girlfriend.
And that's the issue; the intense dislike the sisterhood has for the slender woman causes them to label them all anorexic headcases. A guy who sees at a tall, well-built guy may think, "Well, he works at being fit, good for him". A woman, looking at a tall, slender women, thinks "That skinny bitch needs to die!"
Between Photog and Murray, I shall shortly be convinced there's never a girl of affluent good genes who suffers heartache, betrays a confidence, or snorts a line of cocaine.
ReplyDeleteI hear Fanny Price has been accepted at Harvard, and is with the Ford Modeling Agency.
"BTW Truth, it's 'gay', not 'ghey'. None of this 'take back the word for your group' crap here."
ReplyDeleteBTW, NCA, it's "by the way", not BTW, En Cee Aye; none of this "jr. high texter abbreviation" crap here.
To Photog et al. with questions about model height.
ReplyDeleteGo to the Ford Ny site, select models and examine their cards. The models height is listed with their other stats.
The models are typically 5'11"
"Well, this marks my last post to you, ya lil' nerdiac.
ReplyDeleteHave fun doing doing that video game thing or whatever you do!"
The best part of this statement is that anonymous photographer douche is still going to be in here pressing alt+F5 to get material for thumbing his rectum.
We get it, you're a super cool guy who runs in fancy circles, which is why you feel the need to vomit up post after post trying to prove how cool and knowledgeable you are to a bunch of random people on the internet. I'm sure you have an Oxbridge degree and 185 IQ to go along with your super cool life, just like every other anonymous braggart on the net.
"LMAO, The most universal comeback in the 200,000 year history of male communication finally makes it way to Sailer's website; even Steve decided to use it today."
ReplyDeleteNot exactly. Gay isn't really a putdown in a discussion about gay fashion designers. Its like citing Godwin's Law in a thread about the Battle of the Bulge.
Photog,
ReplyDeleteI have to admit, this one man war you're waging against straw men is impressive in its own way.
TL;DR,TL;DR.
ReplyDelete"After all, petite women make a man feel bigger, in every way."
ReplyDeleteThis makes sense if a man is not all that tall himself.
However, what about a guy who's 6' or a couple inches more?
Would he be averse to someone 5'6" or a couple of inches taller?
A guy who sees at a tall, well-built guy may think, "Well, he works at being fit, good for him". A woman, looking at a tall, slender women, thinks "That skinny bitch needs to die!"
ReplyDeleteA "tall, well-built guy" normally means a six-foot-tall 180lb guy who goes to gym a little.
A pretty average guy, in other words.
The "tall, slender women" you are talking about are not average women, they are freakish women. They are women who do not look like women. They bear as much relationship to the normal woman as LeBron James (6′ 8″, 250lbs) or Danny DeVito (5'0", 140lbs) bear to the normal man.
"We get it, you're a super cool guy who runs in fancy circles, which is why you feel the need to vomit up post after post trying to prove how cool and knowledgeable you are to a bunch of random people on the internet. I'm sure you have an Oxbridge degree and 185 IQ to go along with your super cool life, just like every other anonymous braggart on the net."
ReplyDeleteSays the anonymous braggart on the net. Thanks for the unintended comedy, O brave and true "anonymous."
Only a male intellect clouded by the sexual drive could call the stunted, narrow-shouldered, broad-hipped and short-legged sex the fair sex."
ReplyDeleteOr more likely gay. Or syphilitic (which was the supposed condition of him whom you quote).
I wonder sometimes what either gender really has to offer in the way of bodies. They mostly seem absurd, after a certain age, both genders. And I'm one of the thin ones. Not tall though, but never wanted to be.
"A "tall, well-built guy" normally means a six-foot-tall 180lb guy who goes to gym a little."
ReplyDeletewhy would men think of a six-foot 180lb guy as a tall well-built guy?
"Or more likely gay. Or syphilitic (which was the supposed condition of him whom you quote)."
??
"They mostly seem absurd, after a certain age,"
younger, hotter, tighter wasn't coined for some other reason.
"Says the anonymous braggart on the net. Thanks for the unintended comedy, O brave and true 'anonymous.'"
ReplyDeleteBraggart is a really tough word to tease the meaning out of. Really. It's a whole two syllables, I feel your pain.
This video will help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQB4nAjZIdE
"What do you think of the work of Roissy/Heartiste, Roosh, Mystery, et al?
ReplyDeleteDoes that sort of hyper-cynicism work on the supermodels?
Or have they heard it so many times that they just roll their eyes?
Thanks."
I'm assuming you mean the school of insecure men who try to dress down beautiful women, instead of kissing their asses, under the assumption that this clever use of reverse psychology, or just hoping the girl had a shitty dad, will get them into the panties of the girl that they secretly know is out of their league?
I've seen it tried. I haven't seen it work.
My advice to nerds trying to date in general is just have a life that's interesting and varied, and girls will show up. If you feel you have to come up with some kind of strategy for talking to women, you're doing something wrong, most likely related to your life. I guess bathing, and learning how to dress helps too.
Also, personally, I'm not a fan of someone devoting a webpage to picking on fat chicks. They are wretched creatures who merit our compassion most of the time.
And finally, a sidenote to all the angry vicious nerds trying to organize their straw man convention here, I never said I was currently dating supermodels. There's a lot of things you're arguing about that I didn't say. I suggest you don't try to read and respond to my posts while playing video games.
Now go outside and get some sun on your mangy scalps.
-Photog
why would men think of a six-foot 180lb guy as a tall well-built guy?
ReplyDeleteBecause a six foot tall guy is taller than the average man, and because 180bs with 12% body fat is the definition of "well built".
Well, this is embarrassing. Some people here, not realizing that "Photog" is an obnoxious kid living in his mom's basement, are asking him for advice about women!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Says the anonymous braggart on the net. Thanks for the unintended comedy, O brave and true "anonymous'"
My head hurts ..
never said I was currently dating supermodels
ReplyDeleteWhy the hell not? We're as likely to believe you as we did when you told us that mannequin story you borrowed from Bright Lights, Big City.
You're already engaging in flights of fantasy on the scale of Arabian Nights. Run with it, man! Fly! Soar!
question about image's comment to this comment:
ReplyDelete"Only a male intellect clouded by the sexual drive could call the stunted, narrow-shouldered, broad-hipped and short-legged sex the fair sex."
image: "Or more likely gay. Or syphilitic (which was the supposed condition of him whom you quote).
I wonder sometimes what either gender really has to offer in the way of bodies. They mostly seem absurd, after a certain age, both genders."
Anonymous
"??
"Or more likely gay. Or syphilitic (which was the supposed condition of him whom you quote)."
"They mostly seem absurd, after a certain age,"
Anonymous: "younger, hotter, tighter wasn't coined for some other reason."
image: well, yeah. But clothes are still a comforting invention, for both genders, and one that women undoubtedly had a hand in.
The syphillitic reference was to Schopenhauer, grim German misogynist philosopher--caught syphillis as a college student from a prostitute woman. It's a chicken-egg thing. If he was really such a philospher he would have spared a thought, if not sympathy, for the prostitute who caught it from a man, and probably at an age even younger than his. And they wonder why those killjoys warn the young-uns away from such pursuits. As has been hashed out on this forum before, women have not generally been front and center in scientific discovery and could not have invented syphillis in a petrie dish just to torment men (and themselves.)
Schopy should have spanked himself for his deeds. Nobody forced him.
"The syphillitic reference was to Schopenhauer,"
ReplyDeletebut what sense did "Or more likely gay. Or syphilitic" make?
"grim German misogynist philosopher"
he was wrong in that quote, when compared to weininger
"If he was really such a philospher he would have spared a thought, if not sympathy"
women would still be the short-legged, broad-hipped, narrow-shouldered, stunted sex. (though the grrl power "who says we can't play sports" tries its best for the contrary)
"women have not generally been front and center in scientific discovery "
Indeed, they shamelessly march in the establishment and then think it's their birth-right to dictate their own terms because they were kept away from it for so long.
"But clothes are still a comforting invention, for both genders, and one that women undoubtedly had a hand in."
Sounds hard to believe, what with the gender-equal countries trying their darnedest to let go of them.
So the argument is between those who think models look that way to fulfill female fantasies of - well, weightlessness perhaps - and those who think they look that way because that's what gay male designers like? Nonsense. Drop off the words "gay male" and stick to "designers," though, and you might be closer to the truth. Fashion models, especially runway models, exist for one reason: TO DISPLAY THE CLOTHES.
ReplyDeleteAn elaborate dress, coat, hat, and shoes will simply not show to their best advantage on a stripper's body. The stripper could reasonably add that her body wouldn't show to its best advantage, either.
A tall, too-thin woman will almost invariably look better in layers of elaborate clothing than a shorter, rounder one, even if the latter is not at all fat. Short torsos, necks, and legs don't photograph well. Consider that Marilyn Monroe was a voluptuous, tiny-waisted woman who did not look good in the rich-lady clothes of the 1950s and stuck to junior clothes made for teenagers.
As for why women want to wear elaborate clothing, that appears to long predate the existence of gay fashion designers.
Alias Clio
"The gals in the pages of fashion magazines and catalogs aren't weighed down by anything, not even flesh. They burst out of cabs, they leap onto sidewalks, they let loose with irrepressible guffaws, they're caught by insistent cameras looking their klutzy-but-charming best; they're tall and slim, and they're feelin' good and they're lookin' ready to dazzle. The girls in the pix get to enjoy the champagne-and-cocaine fun parts of being a grownup woman."
ReplyDeleteThe 13-GOING-ON-30 fantasy
As long as you can take a sweaty beach vacation shot on an iPhone, and it turns out like this:
ReplyDeletehttp://instagram.com/p/N-G7dZkMF5/
You rock. Shorties, fatties, and uglies walk. Men, women, and children gravitate towards beautiful people. It's locked into our dna. There's no point in trying to make abstract moral arguments about why we shouldn't prefer beautiful people, or people with "good hearts" are beautiful, or why you'd be willing to fuck the Elephant Man. Especially the time-worn "sour grapes" arguments so popular amongst the "Hard-To-Look-At" set.
Beyond the rational discussion of race, being ugly is truly the last taboo. You don't see equal rights groups for ugly people forming, even though they're the most discriminated-against group in the world.
How many of you have dealt with the tragedy of an having an ugly child? Remember when their birth turned your joy of anticipation into bitter sorrow? Remember when you thought, "holy god. I have to look at THIS for the next 18 years?" Admit it. You never said it, but you thought it. Or, for the more "think positive" inclined, at the very least, you thought, "at least I won't have to worry about her getting pregnant out of wedlock--or wedlock."
How many times has some friend held their ugly baby out for you to hold, and every cell that represents you is repulsed like an opposing magnet? You try to will yourself to hold it in your hands, without bringing it too close, then say, "aaah I'm no good holding babies," with a laugh, hoping they don't notice a pattern.
Hoping they don't know... that you know... that they really know, yet are trying to draft you into their tragic family charade.
"women are .. broad-hipped, narrow shouldered?"?
ReplyDeleteSo? What's your point? Form follows function. I understand that female bulldogs have trouble giving birth to their puppies, they've been so over-bred for narrow back-endness and big chests.
Some men don't go for womens' bodies, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not criticizing you. I am understanding you. Don't get your fulmination about sports figures though. Spartan women used to train in gyms, and it was appreciated that physically fit women would produce stronger men.
Among Olympians, I'm sure plenty of those women could out-run you, Anonymous, and definitely have better legs. Mens' legs are often kind of surprisingly skinny compared with the rest of them.
The female figure often looks beautiful to me and I'm a hetero female. Still, clothing helps most of us. Wife meant weaver in old Anglo-Saxon, I believe.
And while she didn't get to bitch to posterity about it (until the arrival of evil feminists), the misogynist's prostitute still caught her clap from somebody else. Maybe it was a lesbian encounter, but I doubt it.
"How many times has some friend held their ugly baby out for you to hold, and every cell that represents you is repulsed like an opposing magnet? You try to will yourself to hold it in your hands, without bringing it too close, then say, "aaah I'm no good holding babies," with a laugh, hoping they don't notice a pattern."
ReplyDeleteYou've really had these thoughts and feelings? Perhaps you're AA rather than GA or GG. (Empathy research references.)