Important to point out: true, one cannot stop all illegal immigration. That does not suggest that we should not try. A fence won't solve everything! True. Will it reduce illegal immigration 10%? 20%? Then - let's do that, then move on to further strategies.
It is the "comprehensive" strategies, so beloved of politicians, that are the real danger, for they give with one hand and take with the other. Too European. (See also, Middle East policy. Whapping occasional bad guys is a better idea than formulating a "comprehensive" solution. Reward good behavior. Punish bad behavior.)
illegal immigration is really easy to stop. anybody caught employing illegal immigrants pays enormous punitive fines and spends 20+ years in the slammer. if laws such as this were enforced vigorously there'd be no need for any fence.
but the u.s is run by and for business, so good luck with getting anything like this enforced.
Illegal immigration could be stopped or reduced to a mere trickle. The key though, is the POLITICAL WILL to do it. Illegals are not stupid. Once they see that all their efforts and money (paying coyotes and snakeheads) only result in a quick deportation and no lengthy stay in a western country on the taxpayer's dime, they stop coming.
See if paleocons had the discipline to say wow look at that it seems to work in Israel rather than waaa I don't get a border fence Israel can't have on either then you'd probally make progress. But the paleocons are too infiltrated by the Unz's of the world whose only care is that Israel has a border fence not that we don't. Half of the submitters in the TAC presidentla picks would talk a white minoriry US if it meant an Arab majority Israel.So in honor a TAC's beta Francophile Dreher, tampis.
*EVERYTHING* the immigrationists claim is just a damned lie. In the scheme of things, the notion that border fences 'don't work' and desperate enough people will 'always find ways of breaching them' are only minor lies, but lie enough to con a fair few dumb-ass politicians. - The biggest and most egregious lie is the notion that 'uncontrolled immigration benefits the US economy'. Manifestly, totally, completely, utterly, unequivocally untrue - unture to the point that it is a mathematically undefined proposition, rather like dividing 1 by zero. (In this case dividing high productivity by low productivity). If we are unable to educate the dumb-asses of an obvous and galring Vesuvius blazing type in your face falsehood - and actaully the only argument that really matters, what hope have we got for exposing the little lies - the small sheep pellet balls of dung that make up the heap of turds - to the dumb-ass politicoes who, horror-of-horrors, think they are 'smart' because they read the WSJ or 'The Economist'? - Now that's the real question.
Hasn't net illegal immigration gone to zero here in the US? The immigrants are coming for jobs; when the jobs go away, they have little reason to come and much reason to go home. As the economy improves, if we ramp up enforcement so that it becomes no easier than it is now for an illegal immigrant to find a job here, we can keep net illegal immigration at 0.
A genuine "comprehensive" solution would be one which included a fence on the border, greater interior enforcement, more deportations, and a crack-down on the hiring of illegals.
Illegals from south of the border are hidden and sheltered within our large Hispanic neighborhoods. Hispanic and non-Hispanic politicians go to bat for them and protect them. This city is, after all, a "sanctuary city". Those who hire them know they're illegal but don't care. Them being illegal is actually an advantage: no benefits or paid vacations, payment in cash, cheaper hourly wage, work as needed, etc etc. There are lots of people who benefit from them, the social costs being shuffled onto others. There never was any will to stop the flood of illegals. All one could get from politicians have been weak, waffling general statements about enforcing the laws while others like McCain outright pandered to the illegal alien lobby. It's a case of the populace wanting one thing and those in charge wanting something else. It might be the case that in passing NAFTA, which accelerated wholesale illegal migration, there was an unspoken agreement between the two countries that we would absorb a good number of their citizens who became landless or put out of work in order not to destabilize the Mexican political system. Who knows, they might want to go communist. Just give them a map, point them north and tell them things are great up there. Any current crackdowns might just be a sign we've taken in the requisite number, so let's slow things down a bit now.
The only thing that matters in Amerika is the almighty (?!) dollar. Immigration is good for profits and for the empire. Nothing else matters, so it will never change. They'll bring people here in chains if they have to. Oh wait a minute, didn't they already do that?
this is racist. israel is a nation of immigrants and a melting pot and africans could make just as good jews as anybody else. what is a 'jew' anyway? jewishness is just a social construct.
The overland route through Sinai might be closed for now. But in the past smugglers always find another route. I wonder what the Israelis will do if a boat with 50 Africans on it founders off Tel Aviv? Do they drown, or do they end up in Israel?
Eritreans on their way to Israel (or Norway or who knows where?)kidnapped in Sinai with random paid by relatives in Norway.
Actually, Baseball Crank is the guy who led me to the obvious, by pointing out that "never-lying numbers" said the mortgage meltdown couldn't happen, either.
The point is even in Israel it had to get to disaster proportions to do anything about it. Israel is tiny, geographically and demographically, making even small amounts of illegal immigrants deeply felt. Yet there had to be a huge crisis to make the government move.
Steve doesn't get the depth of support for illegal immigration. Nice White Ladies, school boards, teacher unions, NGOs, the Gates Foundation, the elites in general. It is because everyone (and here wrt war/national security Steve and other folks are just as guilty) thinks civilization and prosperity just "happen" magically because we are at some end-point of destiny or something (typical linear post-Christian thinking about time and human destiny).
Obviously its not. Elites think there will be no Idiocracy consequences for mass immigration "because" of their magical goodness and prosperity that just happens out of their goodness and being part of the near-ascendancy of mankind into Nirvana.
Steve how about a quantitative analysis? Who gains and how much?
It is often asserted that Walmart and various houing contractors benefit from illegal immigration. If that is so, who are they and how much do they gain? Do these people sponsor politicians? Again who and how much.
I can't remember ever seeing any hard facts. Maybe I sould read Vdare more often. But when I have read it I haven't seen a whole lot of specifics.
It seems to me that there should be some website that lists the main offenders.
"Of course, Israel's outside borders are 659 km with neighbors who they have little trade with.
The US-Mexico border is 3,141 km with $200 trillion in trade in 2011. Bit different."
Yes, and America has a whopping 315 million people with which to defend its borders whereas Israel has only a mere 7 million. Bit different.
And America doesn't have "200 trillion" dollars in annual trade with Mexico either. The entire GDP of the whole country is only 14 or 15 trillion dollars.
Would it kill you to look up your facts before you post lies?
"Israel has a tiny border and is a paranoid, ethno-religious police state unlike the US."
Great, another illiterate. Israel has far, far fewer people per mile of border than the US does (by almost an order of magnitude), nor is being a "police state" in any way a requisite for building a guarded fence on your borders.
I'd also doubt that Israel is any more of a police state than the US; you can question Israeli West Bank policy in Israeli mass media and keep your job, do that in the USA and you disappear down the memory hole a la John Mearsheimer.
Last I checked, American Jews don't set Israeli immigration policy. Liberal American Jews are generally opposed to how Netanyahu has handled the immigration situation.
Public opinion polls almost always show 60 to 70% of Americans want to reduce both illegal and legal immigration.
I expect most businessmen would rather hire only Americans and pay higher wages, but they can't do it if the laws aren't enforced. If the laws aren't enforced those who break the law will put those it don't break the law out of business. The key to reduced immigration is enforcement of laws. The laws aren't enforced because of the media and political influence of those who believe for one reason or another, elucidated by MacDonald, That increased immigration is in their interest.
Can we set two things straight. One the New York Times with the exception of Judith Miller opposed the Iraq War. Do you guys not remember 30 straight front page stories about Abu Grahib. Secondly, Mearsheimer didn't disappear down any memory hole. He received wall to wall coverage for his Israeli book and then went back to the relative obscurity characteristic of most FP scholars.
This isn't France professors aren't celebrities here. Basically ever major newspaper reviewed his most recent book positively. If you want to make sure Meadsheimer gets his Q rating up vote Romney because then he's sure like the homeless to shoot right back into prominence.
Important to point out: true, one cannot stop all illegal immigration. That does not suggest that we should not try. A fence won't solve everything! True. Will it reduce illegal immigration 10%? 20%? Then - let's do that, then move on to further strategies.
I love how immigration restrictionists must prove ahead of time that our plans are 100% effective, or they are dismissed as a waste of precious treasure. If a fence would only reduce illegal crossings by 20 to 50 percent, then we obviously can't do it.
But leftists' ideas and causes like head start, per pupil spending, etc., continue to get more and more funding despite poor track records. If a leftist cause is not working, the answer is always to double down and spend more.
Solution: how do we make border security a leftist issue?
OK, but it is true that 165 miles of flat desert border is easier to fence in than 2000 miles including mountains, canyons, etc.
Not saying it can't be done -- if we can put a man on the moon...
No doubt there is truth in your statement and building an effective barrier across our Southern border would not be easy. However, look at the border between India and Bangladesh. It too at 2,500 miles is rather large and comparable to our Mexican border. And India is building a decent barrier for about the cost of 10 days of spending in the Afghan War.
India is presently constructing the Indo-Bangladeshi barrier, a 3,406 kilometres (2,116 mi) fence of barbed wire and concrete just under 3 metres high, to prevent illegal immigration and the smuggling of weapons and narcotics. Out of this, 2529 kilometres of fencing was completed at the cost of INR2,881 crore (US$544.51 million) by November 2007. The deadline for project completion was set to 2008-09. By October 2009, about 2649 kilometres of fencing along with about 3326 kilometres of border roads were completed. The deadline for project completion was revised to March 2010. By March 2011, 2735 kilometres of fencing was completed and the deadline was revised to March 2012.
Steve doesn't get the depth of support for illegal immigration. Nice White Ladies, school boards, teacher unions, NGOs, the Gates Foundation, the elites in general.
I think you are leaving out from your list a group that wants massive non-white immigration, has great political, financial and media influence, and has an infatuation about some place called Ellis Island and its evil gatekeepers.
illegal immigration is really easy to stop. anybody caught employing illegal immigrants pays enormous punitive fines and spends 20+ years in the slammer.
That's what I was saying for years. Few show trials ending in real jail terms would be all it takes. No need for anything as severe as 20+ year. Most effectively, start with members of Congress and their families - then see the problem fixing itself overnight.
Look, we've been there already... Let's do the numbers:
The border is 2,000 miles. Do you think single family leasing/owning 2 miles long piece of the land can manage decent protection? Sure it can. The solution: Build a house every two miles and give it away for free to the guys with guns under condition that they will protect the border. Say a house costs $200,000 (that's super nice in most places along the border). So, the solution that is likely a lot more cost effective than the fence is going to cost $200,000,000 tops.
Compare: the US spent five times that in Libya (LIBYA!) alone. And we spent 5,000 times that in Iraq and Afghanistan. Seems like putting those houses even 100 yards apart would be dirt cheap.
"I'd also doubt that Israel is any more of a police state than the US; "
Reporters Without Borders press freedom index lists Israel at... number 92, well behind the United States, which is at 47. Interestingly, Israel's press freedom ranking is only one behind Lebanon, but well behind Kuwait (at 72). Given this, among other things, such as Israel's record of human rights abuses in Gaza and the West Bank, I'm not sure how anybody could actually say that.
Of course, Israel's outside borders are 659 km with neighbors who they have little trade with.
The US-Mexico border is 3,141 km with $200 trillion in trade in 2011. Bit different.
Lol. Never heard of border crossings? Trade doesn't take place at every single point along a border, doofus, so it's not at all problematic with respect to trade to wall off the vast majority of the border.
Anyway, nice try. There's always someone out there who'll believe this crap, no matter how outrageous it appears to people unafraid to think rationally about immigration.
Whiskey got this exactly right: It was only after prolonged, violent demonstrations by south Tel Aviv residents that the government finally started doing something about the African immigrants. That was after years of letting the immigrants pour into the country.
Still today, large areas of south Tel Aviv are filled with Africans - you hardly see any Israelis on the street. The neighborhood communities have probably been destroyed.
Tell a south Tel Aviv Israeli how anti-immigration the government is, and hear him laugh.
Japan anmd Horea, despite being relatively well off democracies in an area where there are poor countries, manage to, at least officially, mmaintain a net migration rate of 0.00%
"OK, but it is true that 165 miles of flat desert border is easier to fence in than 2000 miles including mountains, canyons, etc. Not saying it can't be done -- if we can put a man on the moon..."
You know what's simpler than building a 2,000 mile wall or even a 165 mile wall? Asking parents registering their kids for school to show proof of citizenship or a valid green card.
"are the scots-irish unaware of their hypocrisy or are they just not trying to hide it anymore?"
The latter, but then the non-scots-irish open borders wackos aren't really trying to hide their hypocrisy, either.
You know what's simpler than building a 2,000 mile wall or even a 165 mile wall? Asking parents registering their kids for school to show proof of citizenship or a valid green card.
There was a SCOTUS ruling that made that "unconstitutional."
Japan anmd Horea, despite being relatively well off democracies in an area where there are poor countries, manage to, at least officially, mmaintain a net migration rate of 0.00%
Can we set two things straight. One the New York Times with the exception of Judith Miller opposed the Iraq War. Do you guys not remember 30 straight front page stories about Abu Grahib.
Dumping on Abu grahib was just their way of distancing themselves from the war they were so instrumental in starting:
"Solution: how do we make border security a leftist issue?"
Money.
Sierra Club WOULD have been our best friend (they used to, sensibly, understand that more people equals more scars on the land) but they were bought off by David Gelbaum, when he gave them 100 million dollars to never say another word about immigration, ever again. So they haven't.
Secondly, Mearsheimer didn't disappear down any memory hole. He received wall to wall coverage for his Israeli book and then went back to the relative obscurity characteristic of most FP scholars.
Mearsheimer got wall to wall coverage? On what planet is this? I don't recall seeing him or his co-author on CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, or even PBS to discuss their book or discuss anything since their book, even though all these networks constantly promote elite professors with provocative books about important topics like war and foreign policy. That was a media blackout if ever I've seen one. If it weren't for the Internet, they would have been lucky to have sold a dozen copies in the U.S.
The power of a fence grows exponentially when combined with secure biometric ID. Right now, the cost of getting caught is not fatal because the data collected from border jumpers who are nabbed is not shared with social security. Once we tie fingerprints to getting a job the whole point of coming here will disappear for 90% of those trying to get in. Rather than just a barrier, a fence will also become a harvesting system to permanently brand the thumbs of people who try to sneak in.
I love how immigration restrictionists must prove ahead of time that our plans are 100% effective, or they are dismissed as a waste of precious treasure. If a fence would only reduce illegal crossings by 20 to 50 percent, then we obviously can't do it."
""Of course, Israel's outside borders are 659 km with neighbors who they have little trade with. The US-Mexico border is 3,141 km with $200 trillion in trade in 2011. Bit different.""
Translation: They're Jews, and you're not. Big difference."
Bingo. I wonder if people like Silver are beginning to recognize that their line of bulls**t isn't selling as well anymore?
This is from Philip Weiss and fro 2008, so grain of salt, but apparently Mearsheimer used to contribute to the NYT somewhat frequently (including an op-ed with Walt arguing invading Iraq). He had about ten op-eds in the decade before that, and none since. I don't feel like dealing with the NYT paywall and seeing if that's changed since, but I invite others less lazy to do so.
It was only after prolonged, violent demonstrations by south Tel Aviv residents that the government finally started doing something about the African immigrants.
Yeah. Show me anti-immigration riots in America. Heck, show me even a mild civil disturbance.
Americans just don't care about this. And no, answering a poll question in the affirmative does not constitute caring.
You guys turn into a bunch of socialists when the subject turns to sex and Mearsheimer. Is Mearshemier entitled to contribute to the NYT? Mearsheimer made the same mistake Pat Buchanan made he thought that the liberals liked him really liked him when really he was just a blunt tool to smear a Republican president.
That's a nice comeback and it is somewhat surprising to see Foxman lobby the Israelis over these foreign children. But, and there is a but to this.
According to the story, "Foxman made clear that he respected Israel’s sovereign right to determine its immigration policies,...", and that, "...the ADL issued a statement calling on the government to “gather in” the 400 children of foreign workers who failed to meet its criteria for permanent residence and allow them to stay...".
So when we get down to it, Foxman is talking about letting 400 kids remain who might otherwise be deported. Four hundred will have absolutely zero demographic effect upon Israel. So comparing this to the DREAM Act which would involved millions of kids in the USA is not apt.
I would like to see Foxman and others treat Israel like they do the USA. So if this is the start of him calling for open borders, fine. But this could be just a gimmick given that he is only lobbying for 400 hundred kids which he knows will have absolutely no effect on the Jewish State.
Time will tell. When he starts to push for demographic changing immigration for Israel, then I will eat crow.
I don't think Mearsheimer is entitled to a perch on the NYT. When I met him at the AmConMag "dinner" I also came away with the impression that he has a very shallow understanding of domestic politics. I commented on his contributions to the NYT just as evidence of a change. I agree with the prior commenter that the NYT had some pro-war folks, but was not pro-war on the whole. Staunchly supporting Israel (even while opposing things like settlements) is a more bipartisan policy than the Iraq war was, so Mearsheimer was able to publish an anti-war op-ed while "The Israel Lobby" removed him from what Jay Rosen (egads, another liberal!) would call the "sphere of legitimate controversy" and into the "sphere of deviance".
I don't think Mearsheimer is entitled to a perch on the NYT. When I met him at the AmConMag "dinner" I also came away with the impression that he has a very shallow understanding of domestic politics.
But who doesn't, even among the highly intelligent? I remember speaking with Lord Ridley about the controversial "conservative" political implications of the conclusion of his wonderful book The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation . His response was to say something moderately positive about Margaret Thatcher.
Silver isn't exactly a big Zionist firster, in any case.
Thanks, Bob. Reading that, I was so touched to be defended from the racial right I was even willing to overlook the backhanded nature of the compliment. Then, just as I decided that I can't let that go by unremarked, it occurred to me that "isn't exactly" qualifies as supremely ironic supreme understatement.
Are they just rubbing it in?
ReplyDeleteImportant to point out: true, one cannot stop all illegal immigration. That does not suggest that we should not try. A fence won't solve everything! True. Will it reduce illegal immigration 10%? 20%? Then - let's do that, then move on to further strategies.
ReplyDeleteIt is the "comprehensive" strategies, so beloved of politicians, that are the real danger, for they give with one hand and take with the other. Too European. (See also, Middle East policy. Whapping occasional bad guys is a better idea than formulating a "comprehensive" solution. Reward good behavior. Punish bad behavior.)
illegal immigration is really easy to stop. anybody caught employing illegal immigrants pays enormous punitive fines and spends 20+ years in the slammer. if laws such as this were enforced vigorously there'd be no need for any fence.
ReplyDeletebut the u.s is run by and for business, so good luck with getting anything like this enforced.
Illegal immigration could be stopped or reduced to a mere trickle. The key though, is the POLITICAL WILL to do it. Illegals are not stupid. Once they see that all their efforts and money (paying coyotes and snakeheads) only result in a quick deportation and no lengthy stay in a western country on the taxpayer's dime, they stop coming.
ReplyDeleteSee if paleocons had the discipline to say wow look at that it seems to work in Israel rather than waaa I don't get a border fence Israel can't have on either then you'd probally make progress. But the paleocons are too infiltrated by the Unz's of the world whose only care is that Israel has a border fence not that we don't. Half of the submitters in the TAC presidentla picks would talk a white minoriry US if it meant an Arab majority Israel.So in honor a TAC's beta Francophile Dreher, tampis.
ReplyDeleteIsrael has a tiny border and is a paranoid, ethno-religious police state unlike the US.
ReplyDeleteIsrael is like Manhattan, a special pace for special people.
ReplyDelete*EVERYTHING* the immigrationists claim is just a damned lie.
ReplyDeleteIn the scheme of things, the notion that border fences 'don't work' and desperate enough people will 'always find ways of breaching them' are only minor lies, but lie enough to con a fair few dumb-ass politicians.
- The biggest and most egregious lie is the notion that 'uncontrolled immigration benefits the US economy'.
Manifestly, totally, completely, utterly, unequivocally untrue - unture to the point that it is a mathematically undefined proposition, rather like dividing 1 by zero. (In this case dividing high productivity by low productivity).
If we are unable to educate the dumb-asses of an obvous and galring Vesuvius blazing type in your face falsehood - and actaully the only argument that really matters, what hope have we got for exposing the little lies - the small sheep pellet balls of dung that make up the heap of turds - to the dumb-ass politicoes who, horror-of-horrors, think they are 'smart' because they read the WSJ or 'The Economist'?
- Now that's the real question.
not quite (un)related:
ReplyDelete"Swiss Ecopop group forces immigration referendum"
"A group of Swiss environmentalists has collected enough signatures to force a national referendum on immigration.
"The Ecopop group says natural resources are under increasing pressure from overpopulation...."
Most Westerners don't feel the sense of threat common to Israelis when it comes to national survival.
ReplyDeleteHasn't net illegal immigration gone to zero here in the US? The immigrants are coming for jobs; when the jobs go away, they have little reason to come and much reason to go home. As the economy improves, if we ramp up enforcement so that it becomes no easier than it is now for an illegal immigrant to find a job here, we can keep net illegal immigration at 0.
ReplyDeleteA genuine "comprehensive" solution would be one which included a fence on the border, greater interior enforcement, more deportations, and a crack-down on the hiring of illegals.
ReplyDeletelegislation was amended to permit the detention of illegal migrants for up to three years.
ReplyDeleteIf we tried that here the cry's of "Nazi!" would be deafening.
Illegals from south of the border are hidden and sheltered within our large Hispanic neighborhoods. Hispanic and non-Hispanic politicians go to bat for them and protect them. This city is, after all, a "sanctuary city". Those who hire them know they're illegal but don't care. Them being illegal is actually an advantage: no benefits or paid vacations, payment in cash, cheaper hourly wage, work as needed, etc etc. There are lots of people who benefit from them, the social costs being shuffled onto others. There never was any will to stop the flood of illegals. All one could get from politicians have been weak, waffling general statements about enforcing the laws while others like McCain outright pandered to the illegal alien lobby. It's a case of the populace wanting one thing and those in charge wanting something else.
ReplyDeleteIt might be the case that in passing NAFTA, which accelerated wholesale illegal migration, there was an unspoken agreement between the two countries that we would absorb a good number of their citizens who became landless or put out of work in order not to destabilize the Mexican political system. Who knows, they might want to go communist. Just give them a map, point them north and tell them things are great up there. Any current crackdowns might just be a sign we've taken in the requisite number, so let's slow things down a bit now.
The only thing that matters in Amerika is the almighty (?!) dollar. Immigration is good for profits and for the empire. Nothing else matters, so it will never change. They'll bring people here in chains if they have to. Oh wait a minute, didn't they already do that?
ReplyDeleteOf course, Israel's outside borders are 659 km with neighbors who they have little trade with.
ReplyDeleteThe US-Mexico border is 3,141 km with $200 trillion in trade in 2011. Bit different.
this is racist. israel is a nation of immigrants and a melting pot and africans could make just as good jews as anybody else. what is a 'jew' anyway? jewishness is just a social construct.
ReplyDeleteThe overland route through Sinai might be closed for now. But in the past smugglers always find another route. I wonder what the Israelis will do if a boat with 50 Africans on it founders off Tel Aviv? Do they drown, or do they end up in Israel?
ReplyDeleteEritreans on their way to Israel (or Norway or who knows where?)kidnapped in Sinai with random paid by relatives in Norway.
Sinai Becomes Prison for African Migrants
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/middleeast/01iht-m01-sinai-migrants.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
What accounts for the spike in May?
ReplyDeleteSelf-published refugee Newspaper gives hope to Africans who've fled (to?) Israel
ReplyDeletehttp://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/self-published-refugee-newspaper-gives-hope-africans-whove-fled-israel
237 new Ethiopian immigrants arrive in Israel on 'Dove's Wings'
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=6251
But but but they are Jewish Africans. That's what they all say Boobie.
OT: I called dibs yesterday on the confluence of "Nate Silver," "Election 2012," and "Black Swan," but this bastard beat me to it by a day:
ReplyDeletehttp://dailycaller.com/2012/11/01/is-nate-silvers-value-at-risk/
Actually, Baseball Crank is the guy who led me to the obvious, by pointing out that "never-lying numbers" said the mortgage meltdown couldn't happen, either.
Let's just do what Israel does? Oh wait, that's right. American Jews would call it racist.
ReplyDeleteOK, but it is true that 165 miles of flat desert border is easier to fence in than 2000 miles including mountains, canyons, etc.
ReplyDeleteNot saying it can't be done -- if we can put a man on the moon...
Well, I'm sure that conservatives will be glad to hear that illegal immigration has been stopped in the country they care most about.
ReplyDeleteOT: This is crying out for Steve comment:
ReplyDeleteNYT story on documentary about Pat Brown by his granddaughter
Somehow, the fact that the granddaughter of Pat Brown is a lesbian documentary filmmaker in Silver Lake speaks volumes.
The point is even in Israel it had to get to disaster proportions to do anything about it. Israel is tiny, geographically and demographically, making even small amounts of illegal immigrants deeply felt. Yet there had to be a huge crisis to make the government move.
ReplyDeleteSteve doesn't get the depth of support for illegal immigration. Nice White Ladies, school boards, teacher unions, NGOs, the Gates Foundation, the elites in general. It is because everyone (and here wrt war/national security Steve and other folks are just as guilty) thinks civilization and prosperity just "happen" magically because we are at some end-point of destiny or something (typical linear post-Christian thinking about time and human destiny).
Obviously its not. Elites think there will be no Idiocracy consequences for mass immigration "because" of their magical goodness and prosperity that just happens out of their goodness and being part of the near-ascendancy of mankind into Nirvana.
Steve how about a quantitative analysis? Who gains and how much?
ReplyDeleteIt is often asserted that Walmart and various houing contractors benefit from illegal immigration. If that is so, who are they and how much do they gain? Do these people sponsor politicians? Again who and how much.
I can't remember ever seeing any hard facts. Maybe I sould read Vdare more often. But when I have read it I haven't seen a whole lot of specifics.
It seems to me that there should be some website that lists the main offenders.
Albertosaurus
are the scots-irish unaware of their hypocrisy or are they just not trying to hide it anymore?
ReplyDelete"Of course, Israel's outside borders are 659 km with neighbors who they have little trade with.
ReplyDeleteThe US-Mexico border is 3,141 km with $200 trillion in trade in 2011. Bit different."
Yes, and America has a whopping 315 million people with which to defend its borders whereas Israel has only a mere 7 million. Bit different.
And America doesn't have "200 trillion" dollars in annual trade with Mexico either. The entire GDP of the whole country is only 14 or 15 trillion dollars.
Would it kill you to look up your facts before you post lies?
"Israel has a tiny border and is a paranoid, ethno-religious police state unlike the US."
ReplyDeleteGreat, another illiterate. Israel has far, far fewer people per mile of border than the US does (by almost an order of magnitude), nor is being a "police state" in any way a requisite for building a guarded fence on your borders.
I'd also doubt that Israel is any more of a police state than the US; you can question Israeli West Bank policy in Israeli mass media and keep your job, do that in the USA and you disappear down the memory hole a la John Mearsheimer.
A while back I pointed out to Whiskey that women are not pro-immigration. Evidently he forgot.
ReplyDeleteThousands of Sub-Saharan illegals.
ReplyDeleteThey live on begging, engage in drug trafficking and prostitution.
They raise a human and security problem for the country.
Another country shares Israel's worries about The Black Threat.
Big Bill,
ReplyDeleteLast I checked, American Jews don't set Israeli immigration policy. Liberal American Jews are generally opposed to how Netanyahu has handled the immigration situation.
Public opinion polls almost always show 60 to 70% of Americans want to reduce both illegal and legal immigration.
ReplyDeleteI expect most businessmen would rather hire only Americans and pay higher wages, but they can't do it if the laws aren't enforced. If the laws aren't enforced those who break the law will put those it don't break the law out of business. The key to reduced immigration is enforcement of laws. The laws aren't enforced because of the media and political influence of those who believe for one reason or another, elucidated by MacDonald, That increased immigration is in their interest.
Thus the will of the people is subverted.
Robert Hume
Can we set two things straight. One the New York Times with the exception of Judith Miller opposed the Iraq War. Do you guys not remember 30 straight front page stories about Abu Grahib. Secondly, Mearsheimer didn't disappear down any memory hole. He received wall to wall coverage for his Israeli book and then went back to the relative obscurity characteristic of most FP scholars.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't France professors aren't celebrities here. Basically ever major newspaper reviewed his most recent book positively. If you want to make sure Meadsheimer gets his Q rating up vote Romney because then he's sure like the homeless to shoot right back into prominence.
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ReplyDeleteImportant to point out: true, one cannot stop all illegal immigration. That does not suggest that we should not try. A fence won't solve everything! True. Will it reduce illegal immigration 10%? 20%? Then - let's do that, then move on to further strategies.
ReplyDeleteI love how immigration restrictionists must prove ahead of time that our plans are 100% effective, or they are dismissed as a waste of precious treasure. If a fence would only reduce illegal crossings by 20 to 50 percent, then we obviously can't do it.
But leftists' ideas and causes like head start, per pupil spending, etc., continue to get more and more funding despite poor track records. If a leftist cause is not working, the answer is always to double down and spend more.
Solution: how do we make border security a leftist issue?
OK, but it is true that 165 miles of flat desert border is easier to fence in than 2000 miles including mountains, canyons, etc.
ReplyDeleteNot saying it can't be done -- if we can put a man on the moon...
No doubt there is truth in your statement and building an effective barrier across our Southern border would not be easy. However, look at the border between India and Bangladesh. It too at 2,500 miles is rather large and comparable to our Mexican border. And India is building a decent barrier for about the cost of 10 days of spending in the Afghan War.
India is presently constructing the Indo-Bangladeshi barrier, a 3,406 kilometres (2,116 mi) fence of barbed wire and concrete just under 3 metres high, to prevent illegal immigration and the smuggling of weapons and narcotics. Out of this, 2529 kilometres of fencing was completed at the cost of INR2,881 crore (US$544.51 million) by November 2007. The deadline for project completion was set to 2008-09. By October 2009, about 2649 kilometres of fencing along with about 3326 kilometres of border roads were completed. The deadline for project completion was revised to March 2010. By March 2011, 2735 kilometres of fencing was completed and the deadline was revised to March 2012.
Steve doesn't get the depth of support for illegal immigration. Nice White Ladies, school boards, teacher unions, NGOs, the Gates Foundation, the elites in general.
ReplyDeleteI think you are leaving out from your list a group that wants massive non-white immigration, has great political, financial and media influence, and has an infatuation about some place called Ellis Island and its evil gatekeepers.
illegal immigration is really easy to stop. anybody caught employing illegal immigrants pays enormous punitive fines and spends 20+ years in the slammer.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I was saying for years. Few show trials ending in real jail terms would be all it takes. No need for anything as severe as 20+ year. Most effectively, start with members of Congress and their families - then see the problem fixing itself overnight.
Israel has a tiny border
ReplyDeleteLook, we've been there already... Let's do the numbers:
The border is 2,000 miles. Do you think single family leasing/owning 2 miles long piece of the land can manage decent protection? Sure it can. The solution: Build a house every two miles and give it away for free to the guys with guns under condition that they will protect the border. Say a house costs $200,000 (that's super nice in most places along the border). So, the solution that is likely a lot more cost effective than the fence is going to cost $200,000,000 tops.
Compare: the US spent five times that in Libya (LIBYA!) alone. And we spent 5,000 times that in Iraq and Afghanistan. Seems like putting those houses even 100 yards apart would be dirt cheap.
Jews always make an exception for themselves. So, yes, Jews in America will call you racist if this country did the same thing.
ReplyDelete"I'd also doubt that Israel is any more of a police state than the US; "
ReplyDeleteReporters Without Borders press freedom index lists Israel at... number 92, well behind the United States, which is at 47. Interestingly, Israel's press freedom ranking is only one behind Lebanon, but well behind Kuwait (at 72). Given this, among other things, such as Israel's record of human rights abuses in Gaza and the West Bank, I'm not sure how anybody could actually say that.
Of course, Israel's outside borders are 659 km with neighbors who they have little trade with.
ReplyDeleteThe US-Mexico border is 3,141 km with $200 trillion in trade in 2011. Bit different.
Lol. Never heard of border crossings? Trade doesn't take place at every single point along a border, doofus, so it's not at all problematic with respect to trade to wall off the vast majority of the border.
Anyway, nice try. There's always someone out there who'll believe this crap, no matter how outrageous it appears to people unafraid to think rationally about immigration.
"Migrant Crossings Thwarted."
ReplyDeleteCall me stupid but it almost sounds as though they're reporting that as good news.
Whiskey got this exactly right: It was only after prolonged, violent demonstrations by south Tel Aviv residents that the government finally started doing something about the African immigrants. That was after years of letting the immigrants pour into the country.
ReplyDeleteStill today, large areas of south Tel Aviv are filled with Africans - you hardly see any Israelis on the street. The neighborhood communities have probably been destroyed.
Tell a south Tel Aviv Israeli how anti-immigration the government is, and hear him laugh.
Japan anmd Horea, despite being relatively well off democracies in an area where there are poor countries, manage to, at least officially, mmaintain a net migration rate of 0.00%
ReplyDeletehttp://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_net_Migration_Rate_aall.htm
When another nation proves that soemthing has been done one should not trust politicians who say that it is impossible to do it.
"OK, but it is true that 165 miles of flat desert border is easier to fence in than 2000 miles including mountains, canyons, etc. Not saying it can't be done -- if we can put a man on the moon..."
ReplyDeleteYou know what's simpler than building a 2,000 mile wall or even a 165 mile wall? Asking parents registering their kids for school to show proof of citizenship or a valid green card.
"are the scots-irish unaware of their hypocrisy or are they just not trying to hide it anymore?"
The latter, but then the non-scots-irish open borders wackos aren't really trying to hide their hypocrisy, either.
Of course, Israel's outside borders are 659 km with neighbors who they have little trade with.
ReplyDeleteThe US-Mexico border is 3,141 km with $200 trillion in trade in 2011. Bit different.
Translation: They're Jews, and you're not. Big difference.
Somehow, the fact that the granddaughter of Pat Brown is a lesbian documentary filmmaker in Silver Lake speaks volumes.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one who has never heard of Pat Brown?
You know what's simpler than building a 2,000 mile wall or even a 165 mile wall? Asking parents registering their kids for school to show proof of citizenship or a valid green card.
ReplyDeleteThere was a SCOTUS ruling that made that "unconstitutional."
How does Roy Cohn fit into the McCarthy rant above.
ReplyDeleteJapan anmd Horea, despite being relatively well off democracies in an area where there are poor countries, manage to, at least officially, mmaintain a net migration rate of 0.00%
ReplyDeletehttp://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_net_Migration_Rate_aall.htm
When another nation proves that soemthing has been done one should not trust politicians who say that it is impossible to do it.
But hasn't Japan's economy been in recession for 20 years? And its population is plummeting, too.
Secondly, Mearsheimer didn't disappear down any memory hole. He received wall to wall coverage for his Israeli book.
ReplyDeleteNo he didn't, not in the mainstream media. And any coverage he received there was negative.
Public opinion polls almost always show 60 to 70% of Americans want to reduce both illegal and legal immigration.
ReplyDeleteI don't doubt the truth of this, but can you assist us by citing to a poll or survey?
Liberal American Jews are generally opposed to how Netanyahu has handled the immigration situation.
ReplyDeleteOh bullshit. Show us the evidence.
ReplyDeleteCan we set two things straight. One the New York Times with the exception of Judith Miller opposed the Iraq War. Do you guys not remember 30 straight front page stories about Abu Grahib.
Dumping on Abu grahib was just their way of distancing themselves from the war they were so instrumental in starting:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/15/165145/-NYTimes-Washington-Post-and-Tim-Russert-led-us-to-war
"Solution: how do we make border security a leftist issue?"
ReplyDeleteMoney.
Sierra Club WOULD have been our best friend (they used to, sensibly, understand that more people equals more scars on the land) but they were bought off by David Gelbaum, when he gave them 100 million dollars to never say another word about immigration, ever again. So they haven't.
Secondly, Mearsheimer didn't disappear down any memory hole. He received wall to wall coverage for his Israeli book and then went back to the relative obscurity characteristic of most FP scholars.
ReplyDeleteMearsheimer got wall to wall coverage? On what planet is this? I don't recall seeing him or his co-author on CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, or even PBS to discuss their book or discuss anything since their book, even though all these networks constantly promote elite professors with provocative books about important topics like war and foreign policy. That was a media blackout if ever I've seen one. If it weren't for the Internet, they would have been lucky to have sold a dozen copies in the U.S.
The power of a fence grows exponentially when combined with secure biometric ID. Right now, the cost of getting caught is not fatal because the data collected from border jumpers who are nabbed is not shared with social security. Once we tie fingerprints to getting a job the whole point of coming here will disappear for 90% of those trying to get in. Rather than just a barrier, a fence will also become a harvesting system to permanently brand the thumbs of people who try to sneak in.
ReplyDelete"Silver said...
ReplyDeleteThe US-Mexico border is 3,141 km with $200 trillion in trade in 2011. Bit different."
$200 trillion? TRILLION? Bulls**t. The US GDP in 2011 was only about fifteen trillion.
"Beecher Asbury said...
ReplyDeleteI love how immigration restrictionists must prove ahead of time that our plans are 100% effective, or they are dismissed as a waste of precious treasure. If a fence would only reduce illegal crossings by 20 to 50 percent, then we obviously can't do it."
Good point. Well said.
"Anonymous ben tillman said...
ReplyDelete""Of course, Israel's outside borders are 659 km with neighbors who they have little trade with. The US-Mexico border is 3,141 km with $200 trillion in trade in 2011. Bit different.""
Translation: They're Jews, and you're not. Big difference."
Bingo. I wonder if people like Silver are beginning to recognize that their line of bulls**t isn't selling as well anymore?
This is from Philip Weiss and fro 2008, so grain of salt, but apparently Mearsheimer used to contribute to the NYT somewhat frequently (including an op-ed with Walt arguing invading Iraq). He had about ten op-eds in the decade before that, and none since. I don't feel like dealing with the NYT paywall and seeing if that's changed since, but I invite others less lazy to do so.
ReplyDeleteIt was only after prolonged, violent demonstrations by south Tel Aviv residents that the government finally started doing something about the African immigrants.
ReplyDeleteYeah. Show me anti-immigration riots in America. Heck, show me even a mild civil disturbance.
Americans just don't care about this. And no, answering a poll question in the affirmative does not constitute caring.
Show us the evidence.
ReplyDeleteHere is Abe Foxman, coming to Israel to lobby for their equivalent of the DREAM act. (Israeli government eventually caved.)
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=192045
You guys turn into a bunch of socialists when the subject turns to sex and Mearsheimer. Is Mearshemier entitled to contribute to the NYT? Mearsheimer made the same mistake Pat Buchanan made he thought that the liberals liked him really liked him when really he was just a blunt tool to smear a Republican president.
ReplyDelete"Am I the only one who has never heard of Pat Brown?"
ReplyDeleteI certainly hope so. Pretty hard to understand what Steve and others like Victor Hanson are writing about if you don't have some background knowledge.
Pat Brown
Jerry Brown
Kathleen Brown
Here is Abe Foxman, coming to Israel to lobby for their equivalent of the DREAM act. (Israeli government eventually caved.)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=192045
That's a nice comeback and it is somewhat surprising to see Foxman lobby the Israelis over these foreign children. But, and there is a but to this.
According to the story, "Foxman made clear that he respected Israel’s sovereign right to determine its immigration policies,...", and that, "...the ADL issued a statement calling on the government to “gather in” the 400 children of foreign workers who failed to meet its criteria for permanent residence and allow them to stay...".
So when we get down to it, Foxman is talking about letting 400 kids remain who might otherwise be deported. Four hundred will have absolutely zero demographic effect upon Israel. So comparing this to the DREAM Act which would involved millions of kids in the USA is not apt.
I would like to see Foxman and others treat Israel like they do the USA. So if this is the start of him calling for open borders, fine. But this could be just a gimmick given that he is only lobbying for 400 hundred kids which he knows will have absolutely no effect on the Jewish State.
Time will tell. When he starts to push for demographic changing immigration for Israel, then I will eat crow.
Bingo. I wonder if people like Silver are beginning to recognize that their line of bulls**t isn't selling as well anymore?
ReplyDeleteExcuse me?
"Silver said...
ReplyDelete""Bingo. I wonder if people like Silver are beginning to recognize that their line of bulls**t isn't selling as well anymore?""
Excuse me?"
I mean the whole "Well, Israel is different because,...........it's just different." line.
By the way, did you mistakenly write that the amount of trade with Mexico is $200 trillion, or did you purposefully write that?
Silver was quoting that; he didn't write it. Silver isn't exactly a big Zionist firster, in any case.
ReplyDeleteI didn't write it at all. I quoted it. Please check above.
ReplyDeleteMexico's GDP is $1.6 trillion. Not "15 or 16 trillion."
ReplyDeleteI don't think Mearsheimer is entitled to a perch on the NYT. When I met him at the AmConMag "dinner" I also came away with the impression that he has a very shallow understanding of domestic politics. I commented on his contributions to the NYT just as evidence of a change. I agree with the prior commenter that the NYT had some pro-war folks, but was not pro-war on the whole. Staunchly supporting Israel (even while opposing things like settlements) is a more bipartisan policy than the Iraq war was, so Mearsheimer was able to publish an anti-war op-ed while "The Israel Lobby" removed him from what Jay Rosen (egads, another liberal!) would call the "sphere of legitimate controversy" and into the "sphere of deviance".
ReplyDeleteWhiskey, how is Israel getting away with this? Where are the furious denunciations?
ReplyDeleteI don't think Mearsheimer is entitled to a perch on the NYT. When I met him at the AmConMag "dinner" I also came away with the impression that he has a very shallow understanding of domestic politics.
ReplyDeleteBut who doesn't, even among the highly intelligent? I remember speaking with Lord Ridley about the controversial "conservative" political implications of the conclusion of his wonderful book The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation . His response was to say something moderately positive about Margaret Thatcher.
Silver isn't exactly a big Zionist firster, in any case.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Bob. Reading that, I was so touched to be defended from the racial right I was even willing to overlook the backhanded nature of the compliment. Then, just as I decided that I can't let that go by unremarked, it occurred to me that "isn't exactly" qualifies as supremely ironic supreme understatement.