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| Dinah Shore, Burt Reynolds, and Nancy Reagan at a state dinner in 1984 |
For my article in Taki's Magazine on the movie Sunset Boulevard, I was reading up on Dinah Shore, who conducted a very public romance with the 20-year-younger Burt Reynolds in the 1970s.
Dinah was an endlessly popular blonde Southern belle from Tennessee, who had a huge hit with "Buttons and Bows" in 1948 (it's sung in "Sunset Boulevard," by the way). Her style of music faded, but she never left the spotlight as the hostess of the Dinah Shore Chevy Show. One article I found claimed that "By the 1960s Dinah was probably the most familiar face in American homes after the president." In the 1970s, she had her own talk show, and was likely the most popular female talk show hostess ever until Oprah. It didn't hurt that she didn't seem to age. (In the picture above, she is 67-years-old, a half-decade older than the First Lady, who was a former starlet herself.)
Her sponsorship of the big money Dinah Shore Nabisco golf tournament in Palm Springs each spring was a major step forward for the LPGA. (Dinah didn't appreciate that the tournament became, and remains, a national lesbian rendezvous.)
Her sponsorship of the big money Dinah Shore Nabisco golf tournament in Palm Springs each spring was a major step forward for the LPGA. (Dinah didn't appreciate that the tournament became, and remains, a national lesbian rendezvous.)
Not surprisingly, at Vanderbilt in Nashville in the 1930s, Dinah was a Big Woman on Campus. From the Vanderbilt alumni magazine:
Born Frances Rose Shore in Winchester, Tenn., in 1916, she majored in sociology at Vanderbilt and served as president of the Alpha Epsilon Phi sorority and the Women’s Student Government Club. She was selected “band sponsor” (an early version of homecoming queen) and founded the Athenian Sing, an a cappella singing contest among fraternities and sororities that continues to this day as a campus-wide talent competition. She also sang on the WSM [Nashville AM] radio show Rhythm and Romance, whose theme song was the 1926 standard “Dinah.” Shore put her own stamp on the song and appropriated its title for her professional name. ...
In a survey of the top 50 stars in the history of the medium, TV Guide ranked Shore at No. 16.
Since she was president of Alpha Epsilon Phi, which is a Jewish sorority, it couldn't have been a secret to many at Vanderbilt that Fanny Shore, the daughter of a small town haberdasher, was Jewish. But, that didn't seem to hurt her popularity much.
One might think, from things like Philip Roth's alternative history The Plot Against America, that the South is teeming with anti-Semites, but that seems to be more the cherished belief of Northern Jews than the bitter experience of Southern Jews.
But that seems to be more the cherished belief of Northern Jews than the experience of Southern Jews like Dinah Shore.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it is also a cherished belief of Southern Jews as well, truth be damned?
Is there anything to the rumor that Judah Benjamin, Secretary of War of the Confederate States of America, embezzled what remained of the South's treasury and gold as he fled the country at the end of the war?
ReplyDeleteIn my experience steve sailer's anecdotal story of a nominally jewish woman existing in southern high society completely trumphs any and all first hand accounts of people actually there at that time. By the way did you guys know the first documented slave owner in america was legally a black man? Oh my! methinks it couldn't really how been all that bad then, I mean if a BLACK MAN was willing to procure slaves! Let that fly in the face of..you, historical record.
ReplyDeleteProjectionism is a very interesting thing isn't it?
ReplyDeleteBut that seems to be more the cherished belief of Northern Jews than the experience of Southern Jews like Dinah Shore.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it is also a cherished belief of Southern Jews as well, truth be damned?
As to Northern Jews, what in their experience justifies their anti-Semitism against all American Gentiles, as expressed by the likes of Philip Roth? It could well be said of them that their bigotry derives from faith rather than their own experience.
Southern Jews were mainly Sephardic prior to the US Civil War, and even into the early 20th century, if I recall correctly.
ReplyDeleteThere may have been some prejudice against prole Ashkenazi Jews in the Southern upper classes in which the old Sephardic and assimilated Ashkenazi families circulated with relative freedom.
In fact, there were several Jews on the grand jury that voted to proceed with charges against Leo Frank, who had been arrested for murdering Mary Phagan, and who was convicted, sentenced to death, and then had his sentence commuted by the governor. The subsequent lynching of Frank, a northern Ashkenazi Jew, served as the catalyzing event that launched the ADL.
However, whether the lynching was due more to anti-Semitism or anti-yankee sentiment is unclear. Given that Southern Jews lived openly and, apparently fearlessly, the latter is more likely.
If I recall correctly Irving Kristol, told of how, when he was serving the the Army, another soldier, from New York I think, made some antisemitic remarks towards him. A fellow soldier from the South threatned to kick the man's ass, but only after someone had explained to him what he'd called Kristol.
ReplyDeleteThat's some pretty shallow thinking Steve. The popularity of a talented and charismatic young woman probably wouldn't have done much to counter fear fomented by the second coming of the Ku Klux Klan, which was as obsessed with Jews and Catholics as with blacks. Of course, the rebirth of the KKK after "Birth of a Nation" was as much a northern phenomenon as a Southern one, but massive Klan rallies have a way of concentrating the attention of the people in KKK's cross hairs.
ReplyDeleteOh my! methinks it couldn't really how been all that bad then, I mean if a BLACK MAN was willing to procure slaves!
ReplyDeleteNow that you mention it, Jews were rather willing to procure slaves, to trade them, and to own them. And unlike Africans, Jews went to the South willingly. Jews prominent in the Atlantic slave trade.
Oh, if Southerners were hostile to Jews, Jews wouldn't have been there.
However, whether the lynching was due more to anti-Semitism or anti-yankee sentiment is unclear. Given that Southern Jews lived openly and, apparently fearlessly, the latter is more likely.
ReplyDeleteYou omit a third possibility: that the lynching was due to anger over the crime. The lynching of perceived criminals is not uncommon in human societies, even among members of the same group.
Ben Bernanke is another good example of a Southern Jew.
ReplyDeleteI am Jewish, grew up in the South and spent several years in the Northeast. Although there certainly was anti-Semitism in the South during the 1970's and 1980's, both genteel and prole, I have found that Northern Jews make a much bigger deal out of it than it deserves. Since so much social activity revolves around church in the South, Jews aren't always going to be fully included in social circles there, but that shouldn't really be considered anti-Semitism. For the record, I've been called nastier things by Northeastern proles than I ever was by even the lowest class of Southerners. Southerners tend to be polite even to people they don't like.
ReplyDeleteSince so much social activity revolves around church in the South, Jews aren't always going to be fully included in social circles there.
ReplyDeleteThat's their own "fault," as it were. It's their choice not to assimilate.
However, whether the lynching was due more to anti-Semitism or anti-yankee sentiment is unclear. Given that Southern Jews lived openly and, apparently fearlessly, the latter is more likely.
ReplyDeletePlenty of lynchings during that period of white Gentile Southerners. What do you attribute that to?
Confederates hated Jews SO MUCH that they selected the first two Jewish Senators in the US Congress (FL and LA) and forced Judah Benjamin to be their CSA Secretary of State (he had to fill in as the CSA Secretary of War too for a little while too, because he was a hated Jew). This you can verify via Wikipedia if you like.
ReplyDeleteTo top it off, Jews were hated so much in the South that they were forced to hold high ranks with bizarre titles in the KKK, both during the Reconstruction Era AND in the 20s revival.
Jews were hated so much they were forced to do the Southerners' dirty work, like slave trading.
ReplyDeleteJews were hated so much in the South they were forced to own slaves.
ReplyDeleteSoutherners hated Jews so much they made one serve as mayor of Richmond, Virginia in the 1810s.
ReplyDeleteIf Southerners treat Jews so badly, why did Jews want to live in the South?
ReplyDeleteThat's their own "fault," as it were. It's their choice not to assimilate.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree. You did notice that I wrote that such behavior shouldn't be considered anti-Semitism, right?
There was a study done in 1938 on the "ethnic dislikes" of Americans:
ReplyDeletehttp://racehist.blogspot.com/2008/08/ethnic-dislikes-of-americans-ca-1938.html
According to the study, Anglo-Saxon and German descended Americans had the greatest dislike for Jews.
"Regional differences seem minimal, but in this sample, at least, Mid-Atlantic and New England residents like Jews the least and Southerners like Jews the most."
"Also of interest, dislike of Jews peaks among the middle-class and middle-income, while dislike of Italians continues to rise with income (on the whole, all occupation/income groups dislike both Jews and Italians; only the degree varies):"
"Prejudice against Jews is greater among Republicans than among Democrats, among opponents than among proponents of the New Deal"
There are only 2 Jewish military cemeteries outside of Israel. One is in Berlin, for German Jewish soldiers killed in WWI, the other one is the Cemetery for Hebrew Confederate Soldiers in Richmond:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemetery_for_Hebrew_Confederate_Soldiers
http://www.jewish-history.com/civilwar/shockoe.htm
"TO THE GLORY OF GOD
AND
IN MEMORY OF
THE HEBREW CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS
RESTING IN THIS HALLOWED SPOT"
The New Deal was basically a coalition between northern urban ethnics and Southerners against northern WASPs and small town Midwesterners. Though I think the coalition was mainly about spoils rather than genuine affinity.
ReplyDelete"There may have been some prejudice against prole Ashkenazi Jews in the Southern upper classes in which the old Sephardic and assimilated Ashkenazi families circulated..."
ReplyDeleteMan, I really doubt any Southerners, even from those upper classes, had a clue about these Ashkenazi and Sephardic distinctions. You probably might have well as been talking about distinctions between the Olmec. It's a Jewish fantasy world where it's all about the Jews...
Confederates hated Jews SO MUCH that they selected the first two Jewish Senators in the US Congress (FL and LA) and forced Judah Benjamin to be their CSA Secretary of State (he had to fill in as the CSA Secretary of War too for a little while too, because he was a hated Jew). This you can verify via Wikipedia if you like.
ReplyDeleteThat was before the direct election of senators.
I don't doubt that anti-semitism exists (we killed that semite Osama Bin Laden with extreme prejudice, didn't we?), but I wonder how much of what today is fondly remembered as anti-semitism in the US was simply opposition to any immigrants who were unlikely to assimilate? It's also hard not to shake the impression that a narative was started a long time ago, back in the old country, far from the US, that will never be updated no matter what we do now. We'd have to fix all of history. We're good, but just not up to that!
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't mean they would have accepted Dinah Goldfarb with open arms. Eventually, Sammy Davis Jr. got to sleep in the Vegas hotels also.
ReplyDelete" By the way did you guys know the first documented slave owner in america was legally a black man?"
That's an often quoted technicality that really doesn't pass muster. Anthony Johnson, the black man in question, was actually born a slave, it's just that they called them "indentured servants" at that time. The "slave" thing was more or less invented to "make the Irish white" as Noel Ignatiev would say.
we killed that semite Osama Bin Laden
ReplyDeleteOsama bin Laden was of Yemeni Arab origin. The Yemeni Arabs are rather different genetically from Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews. The close genetic clustering of Yemeni Jews and Yemeni Arabs is actually used to support at least partial convert origins of that Jewish community.
I worry more about Jewish anti-goyitism.
ReplyDeleteMuch of Southern hostility toward Jews has to do with Jewish radicals fomenting black rage in the South.
ReplyDeleteHow would Jews like it if we fanned Palestinian hatred of Jews?
Steve, you give people the impression that Jews are their enemies when in fact RICH Jews - like most other rich people - are their enemies.
ReplyDeletePhillip Roth and Abe Foxman and other grand poobas may utilize semitic bubbeh maases as part of their arsenal against the rest of us but I am not to blame for that.
Your many many readers who rarely meet people of Jewish descent however are likely to hate anonymous Jews like myself however on the assumption that Roth speaks for us all.
He is a millionaire who would like to fancy himself a pitiable victim. Nohing more. He does not speak for my friends in the army or my relatives on foodstamps.
In this backward age it's considered ignorant to hate the rich as a class. Amazingly, it's considered less ignorant to hate Jews as a class.
Jews are not your enemy. Rich people - Jews, WASPS and every other sort - are.
I know I'm going to get pounced on for citing Ta-Nehisi Coates, but he's made a point about the South that has some explanatory value here. Having blacks as slaves, and then as second-class citizens for another hundred years, boosted non-blacks' relative status considerably. The social distance between the gentile white elite in the South and blacks was so vast that it made the distance between the gentile white elite and Jews much narrower by comparison.
ReplyDelete"Prejudice against Jews is greater among Republicans than among Democrats, among opponents than among proponents of the New Deal"
ReplyDeleteThe importance of this little bit of history can't be overstated. It's a big part of the reason that things are the way they are in American politics.
And no amount of Israel über alles chauvinism or conspicuous groveling before their Jewish betters by today's GOP will ever be enough to make up for past transgressions and wipe the slate clean.
This is quite unusual, but most of the comments on this thread are idiotic and something you'd read on a Beck site.
ReplyDeleteI am a white Episcopalian.
Southern Jews have been here a long time and are pretty much the Establishment as much as WASPS. The rift is between German and Russian Jews, as is often the case elsewhere in the U.S.,
e.g. Henry Kissinger (German) v. Bernard Madoff (not German, presumably Russian).
Romney won southern Jews 52%, which fits with my expectations of how that vote would work out. Lehman Brothers was founded in Montgomery. Bernard Baruch's father was a surgeon for the Confederate Army. Many of the "Our Crowd" Jews had relatives in the south in the cotton or banking industry, like Judah Benjamin.
The first Reform Jewish congregation was founded in Charleston and is still there.
I suppose I could come up with more examples, but these will do.
The problem is that nationwide, Jews voted for Barry slightly under 70% in the 2012 election and 80% in 2008. Hence the suspicion toward Jewish groups that is not felt at all here in the South.
When I was a young man in the South, seemed like most of the Jews kept it to themselves - there were some guys who were pretty good friends that I didn't even realize were Jews until decades later.
ReplyDeleteWe just didn't think about Jews. If we did, it was about some far off people in black and white pictures getting the short end of the stick in WWII. And, yeah, we heard that NYC had a lot.
I don't remember ever hearing much other than that.
The urban Catholics and the Southern rednecks of that era had little in common beyond their both being hated by Philip Roth and the like. --FNN
ReplyDeleteThat, and their embrace of FDR and his party. Though, if by "rednecks" you mean the people in the hills, that embrace was tempered a bit. The four or five Southern counties that opposed him were in the isolated mountains of North Carolina and Alabama. The hillbillies were a swing vote which threw some states to Hoover and Eisenhower. (Many opposed the CSA, not because they liked the Yankees, but that they hated the planters all the more.)
That's another thing they shared with urban Catholics, at least the Irish and German ones. Kevin Phillips described how many of those stopped kissing up to FDR when FDR started to kiss up to the Brits.
The lowland South and urban Jews also acted in concert. (Yes, kids, imagine that.) The US record for a presidential race is FDR's 98.6 % in South Carolina in 1936. (I bet Alf Landon got more than 1.4% of New York Jews!) I suspect Southerners wet themselves over FDR-- who was about as Dutch as Bruce Springsteen-- because he was the anti-Yankee Yankee. The more you were like him (Vermont, Maine, upstate New York, Hudson Valley patroons), the more you hated his guts.
I am from India, a lot of Jews like Hindus, and visit India, why is that?
ReplyDelete"However, whether the lynching was due more to anti-Semitism or anti-yankee sentiment is unclear. Given that Southern Jews lived openly and, apparently fearlessly, the latter is more likely."
ReplyDeleteOr perhaps just from their mistaken belief that Frank was actually guilty. I mean, a black man was probably the guilty party, and he continued to live - in Georgia - for another 49 years.
Incidentally, the first Jew to serve in the US Congress was elected from Florida (back when Florida was still Southern) and the mayor of Memphis when MLK was assassinated was Jewish. There are a lot of other Southern Jewish political figures I could mention. The number of Jews in politics in the South has probably declined recently, but that stems mostly from the racially polarized nature of politics (black majority-minority districts) and the ideological divide which puts most Jews on the Left and most white Southerners on the Right.
Many of the complaints about anti-Semitism, Northern or Southern, center on the fact that Jews aren't always included in the business and social circles of white gentiles. But Jews frequently exclude white gentiles from their own social circles, and are more than happy to write plays, books, and movies where white gentiles are the bad guys, so color me unimpressed.
"According to the study, Anglo-Saxon and German descended Americans had the greatest dislike for Jews."
Did they so a study on whom Jews disliked?
Anonydroid at 10:15 PM said: Phillip Roth and Abe Foxman and other grand poobas may utilize semitic bubbeh maases as part of their arsenal against the rest of us but I am not to blame for that.
ReplyDeleteHunsdon replied: Larry Auster does not draw fine distinctions among American blacks. Susan Sontag did not draw fine distinctions among whites when she denounced the whole race as cancer, and then apologized by noting that whitey is worse than cancer.
The problem you raise is a very real one. What are you doing about it?
Where are the Jewish organizations that point out, "Hey, America, it's not so bad, when you get right down to it!"
My bad. This, and the last, are from Anonydroid at 10:52 PM, not 10:15 PM.
ReplyDeleteAnonydroid said: Amazingly, it's considered less ignorant to hate Jews as a class.
Hunsdon replied: Sir, that may be true for the world in which you live, but in my world, anti-semitism is worse than racism, which is the worst thing ever. Can you show me any cite that will support your assertion? Or any site?
When I was at Brandeis University in the early 1960s I hung out in groups that generally contained a number of Jews from the South. Inevitably they would be eventually asked about whether they'd had to deal with anti-semitism. Jews from larger cities usually were part of a Jewish community that got along fine with its neighbors unless other ethnic/racial issues intervened, e.g., as in Miami. The Jews from from smaller towns and cities were usually the only or one of a small number of Jewish families in the town or city they came from. They were more the target of friendly interest than anything else.
ReplyDeleteWhen I got to graduate school. I met a couple from West Virginia -- the married son and daughter of coal miners' families -- who actually asked the first Jew with whom they became friendly whether she had had her horns removed. This was not meant in a nasty way at all and was not really anti-semitism at all. This couple had been raised in a community absolutely bereft of Jews and in a fundamentalist sect that taught that the KJV bible was the word of God. (An uncle nearly died from a rattlesnake bite he got during one of their church's rituals, which involved handling poisonous snakes.) The KJV mistranslates a description of Moses in the Torah to suggest that he - and hence all subsequent Jews - had horns. This couple were raised to believe this was - pardon the expression - gospel truth. The sect they were in never taught anything against Jews per se.
Anyway, my experience has been that there's a lot more anti-semitism among my liberal relatives up north than I ever detected in the South. I'll just add that I have no dog in this fight since I'm a Yankee Catholic.
"For the record, I've been called nastier things by Northeastern proles than I ever was by even the lowest class of Southerners. Southerners tend to be polite even to people they don't like."
ReplyDeleteI suspect this is related to the South's relatively higher levels of white violence (Borderers vs. Puritans, as explained by David Hackett Fischer). Those old glowering Yankees didn't have a habit of settling their disputes with Bowie knives, but they did have a habit of sanctimonious moralizing and sticking their noses in each other's business. The cultural pattern in the Northeast, then, is one that presumes everyone has fairly thick skin. I've heard people from other parts of the country say they were shocked by how rude the waiters and other service-industry people were in Boston (I can't imagine what they'd think if they had to deal with MBTA personnel or MassDOT toll-booth attendants).
The South, on the other hand, inherited the dual traditions of impulsive Borderer violence and class-conscious Cavalier gentility. Both provide strong incentives toward politeness- don't be uppity toward the well-dressed Colonel on his plantation, or he'll refuse to invite you over to dinner again, and don't insult the Scotch-Irish mountain man, or he'll shoot you in a fit of rage.
While I admire the South's more polite culture in theory, in practice, I find Southern gentility a little disconcerting- as someone bred on blunt New England frankness, I automatically assume that if people aren't saying nasty things about me to my face, they must be saying nasty things about me behind my back.
Because the cotton planters were not merchants themselves, Jewish merchants were welcomed into the south. As in Poland in the early modern period, they were useful. The elites invited them in. The Frank case in Atlanta was an anomaly in more ways than one: http://tinyurl.com/auwjtob
ReplyDeleteWinchester TN, by the way, a small town of a few hundred families near where I live, is also the birthplace of John Templeton of the Templeton Prize.
Ex Submarine Officer's account is pretty much my own. Anti-semitism is something I never witnessed growing up in the South during the late 80s-early 00s.
ReplyDeleteO/T again: I commented yesterday on a London trial where the judge complained of how gormless the jury was. I asked whether this was a consequence of dysgenics [among the indigenous], or of mass immigration. A commenter at the Telegraph blog reports:
ReplyDelete"According to another newspaper, the composition of the jury was 8 women and 4 men: 2 white with the rest of Afro-Caribbean or Asian origin. The foreman of the jury was a white female.
It does not have to be the whole jury who were dim, at least three would be required to be unable to reach a majority verdict."
Individuals who become emotionally involved with a particular position of ideological or ethnic advocacy may lose their ability to dispassionately analyze data, and this intellectual failing may sometimes even apply to award-winning Ivy League statistics professors.
ReplyDeleteRon Unz
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/meritocracy-admitting-my-mistakes/
For the record, I've been called nastier things by Northeastern proles than I ever was by even the lowest class of Southerners. Southerners tend to be polite even to people they don't like.
ReplyDeleteI'm Southern. My impression is the South is a much better 'melting pot' than the North, and most Northerners I meet agree with me. Levantines in particular seem to adapt well to the culture of the region's market-dominant majority. There is a lot of emphasis on courtesy and 'face' in the South, and shunning when somebody steps out of line. Lots of elements for a Levantine to appreciate.
Insisting that everybody adapt to the dominant culture works. By contrast, multi-culturalism and PC destroys cohesion in a multi-ethnic society.
My Russian-Jewish ancestors settled in a small town in Mississippi to sell clothes. My relatives that are still there seem pretty relaxed, easygoing, and, well, Southern, compared to the Jews I know in New York.
ReplyDelete"Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete""However, whether the lynching was due more to anti-Semitism or anti-yankee sentiment is unclear. Given that Southern Jews lived openly and, apparently fearlessly, the latter is more likely."
"You omit a third possibility: that the lynching was due to anger over the crime. The lynching of perceived criminals is not uncommon in human societies, even among members of the same group."
There is even a fourth possibility - that he was actually guilty.
http://www.last.fm/music/Dinah+Shore/+images/77885282
ReplyDeleteI never would have guessed she was Jewish, but this early picture looks more Ashkenazi.
Jews are not your enemy. Rich people - Jews, WASPS and every other sort - are.
ReplyDeleteGenerally yes but there is that small issue of the jews being way overrepresented amongst the rich and powerful. Almost as if there were an ethnic angle to all this other than class.
There wasn't that much anti-Semitism in the South because there weren't that many Jews (especially outside the historic seaports). Each small town tended to have a dry goods store owned by a Jewish shopkeeper like Dinah's father and that was about it. Everyone in town knew that Sol Shore was an honest merchant from whom they bought their suits and shoes and that was where their knowledge of Jews began and ended.
ReplyDeleteI don't know where the stereotype of Southerners being anti-Semitic came from. The KKK made anti-Semitic (and anti-Catholic) noises but their real concern was always blacks. There were never many Jews in the South but those who were there tended to be well accepted into civil society and there are numerous examples of them holding political office, often earlier than when such things were possible in the North.
IT definitely helps that she doesn't look jewish -- unlike Rahm.
ReplyDeleteI'm a little freaked out that Burt Reynolds was involved with the 20-years-his-senior Dinah Shore. That's just weird. The Ashton Kutcher-Demi Moore thing was weird too, but the age gap there is more like 16 years. Some need must be being met, some need that's incomprehensible to me.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a young man in the South, seemed like most of the Jews kept it to themselves - there were some guys who were pretty good friends that I didn't even realize were Jews until decades later.
ReplyDeleteThis was also my experience going to college in the South during the 1970's. I knew lots and lots of Jewish Southern Belles. As a naive teen, I did not realize they were Jews at the time -- despite what were obviously Jewish last names -- because their accents did not "sound Jewish."
As a 40 year old who has lived my entire life in Texas, (which isn't exactly the South, but it's Texas) I can say that I've never witnessed a Texan say anything anti-Semitic. It isn't part of the culture here. Maybe Jews just aren't on our radar (Although there are many here). I've only heard anti-Semitic remarks from foreigners and Northerners.
ReplyDeletehttp://news.yahoo.com/clear-look-scientology-believers-205516533.html
ReplyDelete"With Scientology, Wright documents that leaving is not only a psychologically difficult thing to do (for many believers it means the loss of contact with virtually all friends and family), but even at times a physically difficult thing, as teams are willing to track you down wherever you go to try to 'persuade' you to return."
What happens to a politician who won't bend over to AIPAC?
What happens if one says he believes in race?
Was James Watson tarred and feathered by scientologists?
What about Stephanie Grace for sending a private email?
What happened to Rick Sanchez, Pat Buchanan, and Helen Thomas?
ReplyDeleteYour many many readers who rarely meet people of Jewish descent however are likely to hate anonymous Jews like myself however on the assumption that Roth speaks for us all.
What in the world? What upper middle class folks rarely meet Jews? Are you high? We all know lots of Jews, because all the people we know are upper middle class and Jews are overrepresented in our workplaces and communities because Jews are smart and most likely to be upper middle class. I know more Jews than proles.
Driving Miss Dinah?
ReplyDeletehttp://takimag.com/article/wrestling_gets_tapped_out_of_the_olympics_scott_locklin/print#axzz2L7yzW6i0
ReplyDeleteA way to punish Iran and Russia?
Would this happened if Israel was a powerhouse in wrestling?
Did any Southerner ever try to expel the Jews like this famous Yankee?
ReplyDeleteDitto ex Submarine officer.
ReplyDeleteJews are much rarer in the South and then they are mainly confined to cities. I didn't knowingly come across a Jew until age 13 and would only come across one more before adulthood. The public high school I went to served the entire county and was huge, but I still only knew of the one I met at age 13.
Not exactly out of sight, out of mind, because Southerners are quite philo-Semitic. My own dad (German, but Southern) taught me that Jewish people were special, had God's special protection, and that evil would be visited upon anyone who hurt them; this seems to be a typical belief.
In my adopted, Old Florida town, the first festival queen from back in the 1930s was an Ashkenazi Jew.
I think the Roth stuff, and even Sacha Baron Cohen during Borat, has more to do with Jews desperately seeking commonality with Black people.
Can you cite another example of purported Southern anti-Semitism besides Philip Roth's alternate history?
ReplyDelete"I don't know where the stereotype of Southerners being anti-Semitic came from."
ReplyDeleteThe phoney Jewish role as racial egalitarians during the Civil Rights movement serves as a sort of founding myth for the open Jewish power structure in the U.S. The result is that whites are bitterly divided ideologically and regionally, and the original founding, founding stock and traditions are called into question.
The class warfare hatred of "the rich" among Sailerite's is what makes most of the commenters here a bunch of blind rage morons.
ReplyDeleteIt's always enjoyable to watch someone who doesn't know how to use apostrophes calling others morons.
For the record, I've been called nastier things by Northeastern proles than I ever was by even the lowest class of Southerners. Southerners tend to be polite even to people they don't like.
ReplyDeleteI'm Southern. My impression is the South is a much better 'melting pot' than the North, and most Northerners I meet agree with me. Levantines in particular seem to adapt well to the culture of the region's market-dominant majority. There is a lot of emphasis on courtesy and 'face' in the South, and shunning when somebody steps out of line. Lots of elements for a Levantine to appreciate.
Insisting that everybody adapt to the dominant culture works. By contrast, multi-culturalism and PC destroys cohesion in a multi-ethnic society.
Agreed. I'm still waiting for the rest of America to produce Chinese Sheriffs like Harry Lee, Indian Governors such as Jindal and Haley, Lebanese/Syrian bootlegging- jookjoint owning -soul music producers like the Malouf clan, and Jewish cops like the one in my hometown who doubles as the rabbi.
At Tulane, there was a sizeable influx of NY Jews who LOVED LOVED LOVED New Orleans, a 24/7 Party Town where anything goes. Including btw constant gay pride festivals/parades.
ReplyDeleteThere are whole swaths of the Deep South where gays, Jews, etc. have prominent positions and have since White settlement.
If you are White in a sea of Black people, who have many, many reasons to really, really hate hate hate you for being White, you don't draw fine distinctions and want as many to be "White" as possible.
In related news I hereby nominate this Johns Hopkins doctor as official permanent team captain of the Reggie Cleveland Allstars!
ReplyDeleteShalom, Doc.
This is probably due to the much fewer number of Jews in the South relative to the North.
ReplyDelete"There is even a fourth possibility - that he was actually guilty."
ReplyDeleteUm, possibility? Lynching is vigilante justice. The lynched is virtually always guilty and the population so outraged at the crime that they disregard the authority of the courts to administer that justice. The innocent lynched guy is largely a myth. Modern civilized folks prefer lesser punishments even for heinous crimes. Most rapists and murderers do not face hideous ends befitting their hideous crimes. In a lynching they do.
I am from India, a lot of Jews like Hindus, and visit India, why is that?
ReplyDeleteBecause Hindus aren't Christians trying to convert them. Hindus marry their own.
Jews have always been far more accepted in the South than in the North. Judah Benjamin, a Jew, was both Secretary of State and Treasury Secretary for the Confederacy. I can't imagine the North allowing a Jew to hold such a position at that time.
ReplyDeleteSouthern Jews have worked hard to blend in. Almost all are Reformed Jews. The Jackson, Miss., temple once celebrated High Holy days with a shrimp boil.
If you go into some of the small town communities where Jews made up maybe seven to 10 percent of the white population and look at the old school annuals from the 1940s on, you will find the Jewish students were often very popular, receiving such honors as Homecoming Queen or Miss [Local] High School.
Southerners saw no conflict in being tolerant and accepting of Jews and rather hateful towards blacks. Sen. J.K. Vardaman, who was on record as saying "The only effect of Negro education is to spoil a good field hand and make an insolent cook," penned editorials in his newspaper condemning Henry Ford for his antisemitic remarks.
Whenever you hear of Southern antisemitism, it almost always comes from the 1960s era when influential northern Jews allied with black civil rights workers. Even then this anti-Jewish language was limited almost entirely to the Klan.
The class warfare hatred of "the rich" among Sailerite's (sic) is what makes most of the commenters here a bunch of blind rage morons
ReplyDeleteI'll give you a California perspective. Up to about 1986, what really set Cal. apart was clean and responsive government. If there was some kind of error/problem/misunderstanding, you could talk to someone and not get blown off. The question is, who's responsible for the reversal of this bliss? Is it the rich?
"We just didn't think about Jews. If we did, it was about some far off people in black and white pictures getting the short end of the stick in WWII. And, yeah, we heard that NYC had a lot."
ReplyDeleteThis. Growing up in the South, I didn't know a single Jew.
The rumor about Dinah Shore was that she was part black.
I was never much of a Nancy Reagan fan, but that is one hell of a good-looking dress. I guess it's a Galanos. For blue state women, rejecting the republican party for some reason also means wearing all black all the time.
ReplyDeleteSteve, you give people the impression that Jews are their enemies when in fact RICH Jews - like most other rich people - are their enemies.
ReplyDeleteHating rich people leads to "ANTI-SEMITISM!!!" The Forbes 400 is something like 40% Jewish. Hatred of the rich has disparate impact on Jews.
Phillip Roth and Abe Foxman and other grand poobas may utilize semitic bubbeh maases as part of their arsenal against the rest of us but I am not to blame for that.
But taken as a whole, Jews are pretty okay with their leaders. Jews are the world heavyweight champions of political organization. They'll start an NGO at the drop of a hat. If they're dissatisfied with their representation, they do something about it.
Obviously there are exceptions, but if there were a lot of them, we'd know about it.
Your many many readers who rarely meet people of Jewish descent however are likely to hate anonymous Jews like myself however on the assumption that Roth speaks for us all.
Like I said, Roth does speak for you all, in a very real sense. But no, I don't hate you, and no, I don't reject your right to speak up and differ with the Roths, or refuse to acknowledge that you have.
In this backward age it's considered ignorant to hate the rich as a class. Amazingly, it's considered less ignorant to hate Jews as a class.
That's not my perception at all. Quite the opposite.
Jews are not your enemy. Rich people - Jews, WASPS and every other sort - are.
The trouble with that is, the skullduggery the rich get up to seems much more in line with Jews' interests and desires, and more contrary to Anglo-Saxons' (I'm an Anglo-Saxon and I find "WASP" deliberately offensive and stupid; Anglo-Saxons are inherently white, and their default religion is Protestant, so the "w" and the "p" are just there to make it into a pest's name).
Really, I think it's safe to say Jews, taken as a group, are my enemy. Not my only enemy, but the most prominent. That's not to say that every individual Jew is my enemy, of course. You don't sound like a bad sort. On the other hand, you are here defending my enemies, so there's that.
There's anti-Mormonism, anti-Mexicanism, anti-Asianism, anti-Hinduism, anti-Germanism, anti-Arabism, anti-Muslimism, anti-white-ism, anti-Christianism, anti-atheistism, anti-intellevtualism, anti-populism, anti-socialism, anti-capitalism, anti-Russianism anti-gypsyism, anti-Frenchism, etc... many of them espoused by Jews.
ReplyDeleteThere is no rule that says you have to like all groups.
I make this point a lot (more elsewhere, than here), but it doesn't seem to get much traction.
Personally, I'm not all that fond of humanity in general. I find quality people a pretty rare breed. People seem to assume that because I'm an ethnopatriot, I give whites a pass on everything, or something. Nope. Most of them are chowderheads.
And Jews crack jokes about how non-Jews are so dumb.
And I guess where I'm coming from on this point is that to me, Jews are dumb, too; an IQ of 107 (or 110, if you prefer) is still dumb to me.
It was always about power.
Yup.
While I admire the South's more polite culture in theory, in practice, I find Southern gentility a little disconcerting- as someone bred on blunt New England frankness, I automatically assume that if people aren't saying nasty things about me to my face, they must be saying nasty things about me behind my back.
They are. But your feelings have been spared, and the peace kept. :)
The Reactionary Right is really the New Left, full of anti-capitalist resentnicks.
ReplyDeleteThis is pretty characteristic of Jews; that is, the tendency to preemptively expect antisemitism and this isn't the only context in which it occurs. It makes it easier to deride and take advantage of people and justify your own bad behavior toward some other group (a) when you can imagine they already don't like you and (b) when you've never have intimate contact with them and are a safe distance away from them.
ReplyDeleteThis falsely attributed hate is a useful group behavior for a clannish middle-man minority, I suppose.
Did they so a study on whom Jews disliked?
ReplyDeleteNow that's a question you don't often hear asked.
There must surely be some anti-Semites down there, but the vast majority of Southerners I've met have been fanatically, almost ravingly, philo-Semitic - very much "God's Chosen People". The only Southern anti-Semites I've seen have been fantasy creations of New York Yankees, Hollywood Jews etc. This is in stark contrast to Europe, where mild anti-Semitism is pretty ubiquitous, or the stronger anti-Semitism you get in much of the non-Western world.
ReplyDeleteInstead of asking about gentile anti-semitism, we should be asking about Jewish anti-goyitism.
ReplyDeleteAsk Sailer. He'll tell you he's been barred from MSM because of his understanding of human differences that Jews don't like.
Ask Rick Sanchez and Helen Thomas.
Ask Chuck Hagel for saying that he's for USA than for Israel.
It's Jews who are full of anti-goyitism, and we are all victims.
If you've been in the South, you know.
ReplyDeleteThe South has big cities, but the heart and soul of Southern culture are in small towns and in the country. Even cities reflect that and the tradition.
Though the South took in its share of immigrants, the ethnic immigrants and Jews mostly settled in Northern cities which became culturally separate from the white small towns and rural areas.
So, there is a kind of urban-rural unity in the South but less so in the North where you often have Jewish control in cities but non-Jewish control outside cities.
anon:
ReplyDelete"Maybe it is also a cherished belief of Southern Jews as well, truth be damned?"
Not in my experience of Southern US Jews, no. Anti-Gentilism seems much more a New York thing. For that matter London Jews don't seem to display any animosity at all* to white Christians, either - and I used to live in a mostly Jewish apartment complex in north London. Nothing at all like what I read from US Northern Jewish journalists & opinionators.
*There are a few Jews on the far Left who hate everyone, but even there it doesn't seem anything like the US phenomenon, or much different from far Left non-Jews.
Jehu:"To top it off, Jews were hated so much in the South that they were forced to hold high ranks with bizarre titles in the KKK, both during the Reconstruction Era AND in the 20s revival."
ReplyDeleteI was wondering if KKK anti-Semitism might have been a reaction to the ADL, rather than vice-versa.
I'm surprised that no one brought up the old rumor that Dinah Shore was negroid in some way. It was really believed by some. Perhaps this was confined to the blind community.
ReplyDeleteBarry Farber, a Southern Jew and talk show host in NYC once said that as Southern Jews were a small commercial minority in most Southern communities, they tended to police each other. Pushy or dishonest Jews were told to mind their manners and not make their brethren look bad. Some were shunned and encouraged to move out. I have no idea if this was true but it does sound plausible.
Here we go again. Not all Jews are "anti-goyish" and not all non-Jews are anti-Semites. The Jew-haters among the commenters here always want to paint Jews as monolithic "goy-haters." That just feeds into paranoia and allows the element among the Jews you don't like to co-opt those Jews you might not have as much reason to dislike. As the country declines and the ethno-racial grab for spoils becomes more intense, all Jews below the elite, including upper middle class professionals, will be forced to accept that they will never be loved by African-Americans and Hispanics no matter what ridiculous Rahm Emanuel-like stunts are pulled. The same will be true of the less deluded blank-slatist White liberals. It isn't productive in the long term to demonize these people.
ReplyDelete"I am from India, a lot of Jews like Hindus, and visit India, why is that?"
ReplyDeleteDiverse democracy narrative.
Anti-Muslim and counter-China narrative.
Elite minority rule narrative. Though India is run by Hindus, elites don't have much rapport with the masses.
India as a national idea is sort of 'propositional'.
I'm a little freaked out that Burt Reynolds was involved with the 20-years-his-senior Dinah Shore. That's just weird. The Ashton Kutcher-Demi Moore thing was weird too, but the age gap there is more like 16 years. Some need must be being met, some need that's incomprehensible to me.
ReplyDeleteIncomprehensible, then and now-- Dinah settling for Burt Reynolds? Has it ever been explained?
The Jew-haters among the commenters here always want to paint Jews as monolithic "goy-haters."... It isn't productive in the long term to demonize these people.
ReplyDeleteA sincere request: Could you please hold up for us a few examples of Jew-hating commenters in this thread and examples of attempts to "demonize" Jews?
Because I don't really see it, making your comment, to my mind, look like an act of anti-Gentilism.
Is Burt Reynolds heterosexual?
ReplyDeleteDid any Southerner ever try to expel the Jews like this famous Yankee?
ReplyDeleteHiram U Grant wasn't a Yankee, but a classic Scotch-Irishman. He'd have been quite familiar with Kentucky, born as he was right across the river in the Virginia Military District.
Or perhaps just from their mistaken belief that Frank was actually guilty. I mean, a black man was probably the guilty party, and he continued to live - in Georgia - for another 49 years. --Goyische Kopf
There was a lengthy article in American Heritage a few years back which suggested there was far more evidence against the black janitor, the only other person in the building at the time of the murder. But the authorities apparently would rather face the wrath of the few Jews in Atlanta than the hundreds of thousands of blacks.
How would Jews like it if we fanned Palestinian hatred of Jews?
Cf. Rachel Corrie, the modern "freedom rider".
There were never many Jews in the South but those who were there tended to be well accepted into civil society...
"But"? Don't you mean "so"?
I am from India, a lot of Jews like Hindus, and visit India, why is that?
Because Hindus aren't Christians trying to convert them. Hindus marry their own.
Hinduism and Old Testament Judaism are both nationalistic faiths with little interest in universalism. Their violence was mainly defensive in nature. Christianity is universalist, but not violent... In theory, anyway. Islam is both nationalistic and universalist, hence its "bloody borders" per Huntington.
But the authorities apparently would rather face the wrath of the few Jews in Atlanta than the hundreds of thousands of blacks.
ReplyDeleteWell that clarifies things. I have been wondering why blacks were never charged with crimes, imprisoned, or lynched in the South.
ReplyDeleteDo they describe faiths or racial creeds?
Hinduism and Old Testament Judaism are both nationalistic faiths with little interest in universalism. Their violence was mainly defensive in nature. Christianity is universalist, but not violent... In theory, anyway. Islam is both nationalistic and universalist, hence its "bloody borders" per Huntington.
ReplyDeleteAh, yes, "per Huntington." A crucial qualifier.
The fact is, 9/11 and pretty much the entirety of Arab violence ("terrorism") toward Europeans and Jews over the past century has been "mainly defensive in nature."
The invasion of Palestine? Not so much.
Hinduism and Old Testament Judaism are both nationalistic faiths with little interest in universalism.
ReplyDeleteAre they "faiths" or racial creeds?
Speaking of alternate history, Harry Turtledove, who is Jewish AND a historian, had a Third-Reich-In-
ReplyDeleteThe-South series where the "Nazis" were anti-Black and the counterpart of Goebbels was Jewish.
@Whiskey
ReplyDeleteGays in prominent positions? Whadju talkin' 'bout, Willis?
Boy that Burt Reynolds sure gets around- a hot cougar on each arm!
ReplyDeleteThere must surely be some anti-Semites down there, but the vast majority of Southerners I've met have been fanatically, almost ravingly, philo-Semitic - very much "God's Chosen People". The only Southern anti-Semites I've seen have been fantasy creations of New York Yankees, Hollywood Jews etc. This is in stark contrast to Europe, where mild anti-Semitism is pretty ubiquitous, or the stronger anti-Semitism you get in much of the non-Western world.
ReplyDeleteTrue and my experience has been that both more conservative religious Jews and secular Jews more or less revile these people even as evangelicals fawn over them. They only support Israel because they hope to bring about Armageddon! When the Jew cannot vilify his enemy's behavior, he goes after his enemy's motives. Most born-again types I've met support Israel because they hold to the whole "those who bless Israel will be blessed" business much more than out of any desire to bring about the apocalypse. That won't stop Jews from claiming otherwise.
That just feeds into paranoia and allows the element among the Jews you don't like to co-opt those Jews you might not have as much reason to dislike.
As Svigor has pointed out many times, Jews really don't wait for others when making decisions. This piece is actually another good example of Jews once again making up their mind about a matter, facts be damned.
The Jew-haters among the commenters here always want to paint Jews as monolithic "goy-haters."
I'd fall into that category of Jew-haters (or Jew mistrusters), I suppose, but even I don't paint every individual Jew as a "goy-hater." That's far from true. However, Jews--at least the Ashkenazim--do exhibit some characteristic behaviors as a group and it's high time people were able to freely talk about some of the negative ones and weren't restricted to merely repeating the ones that flatter The Tribe.
... It isn't productive in the long term to demonize these people.
And then comes the final retort: if you know what's good for ya...
The Reactionary Right is really the New Left, full of anti-capitalist resentnicks.
ReplyDeleteAnd the "party of the working man" has left him and never looked back.
People like you really make me sick.
I moved to Spartanburg, SC, with my family 1/3 century ago to open my medical practice. I saw all races and religions. Almost all of my patients became my friends. My wife and I were invited to a main and bar mitzvah(s) (because the father grew up in such a small southern town there were not enough jews for him to have a bar mitzvah). Half of the people in the synagogue were christian and we all went to the reception. My Catholic wife thought it was such an odd church not to have a cross in it. She recognized the verses read. I had to explain the difference between jews and christians to her. So one explanation is differences have to register to even consider antisemitism. Another consideration is southern hometown pride- jews are supposed to go where the economic opportunity is. Every southern town (in SC), especially in the bitter economic times of reconstruction, was happy to have a jewish community and ecstatic to get a synagogue- this town was going somewhere good! Finally, prior to The War Between The States, dueling was a way to settle arguments. Religion was personal and worth dying for but not worth arguing to death for. Since death comes for us all, the answer would come in its time. My conclusion still is that southerners are OK with any religion that does not try to convert with the sword. Your actions define how others think of you. Southerners seem a lot more resistant to political correctness 'shaming' seeing it as a version of nagging. No one here likes a nag, especially a male nag. I hope this offers some insight. Thank you
ReplyDeleteRegarding Anonymous 8:48 a.m.;
ReplyDeleteBuying suits and shoes is important business for any human, esp. those for whom the investment is large relative to income. And for those who live in communities with limited fashion intelligence.
The opportunity for significant appreciation in status is very attractive.
Neil Templeton
"Although there certainly was anti-Semitism in the South during the 1970's and 1980's, both genteel and prole, I have found that Northern Jews make a much bigger deal out of it than it deserves. Since so much social activity revolves around church in the South, Jews aren't always going to be fully included in social circles there, but that shouldn't really be considered anti-Semitism."
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with anti-Semtisim, anti-black, anti-Catholic etc?
I am for freedom of association and you really need that in this multiracial, multicultural society.
The factual question of whether Jews, or at least the subset defining themselves in but not of the American South, were actually systemically persecuted/harassed/looked at askance by anyone is beside the point--what matters is how it all made them feel. Anyway the universal status incentives in current society line up along NOT associating yourself with Dixie. Or you can do the Michael Lewis thing, kvetching about it while alternately draping yourself in pseudo-aristocratic farmer gentility when that suits.
ReplyDeleteSqueaky wheel gets the grease, or in this case becomes the object of Sailer's ire. The selection bias leaves you overlooking the undoubted majority of Southern/Southwestern/N. Florida Jews who don't really have a problem with "the South" (or why stay there?) I'd think some even are entrepreneurial about it--isn't that Kinky Friedman's entire shtick?
ReplyDeleteThanks for that link. With all the recent fuss about "no candidate in NYC" (omits the ultra-underdog Tom Allon) and Rahm's various fiascoes, it makes me wonder whether the era of the big-city Jewish mayor or commissioner (a somewhat unreliable route to higher office) may have come to an end. They're really scraping out the barrel in L.A.
ReplyDeleteThe selection bias leaves you overlooking the undoubted majority of Southern/Southwestern/N. Florida Jews who don't really have a problem with "the South" (or why stay there?).
ReplyDeleteBy your reasoning, Jews must not really have a problem with Whites, or Europeans, or Northern Europeans, or WASPs, or Germans, because well, why would they stay in those peoples' countries?
The Anti-Gnostic said...
ReplyDeleteAnd the "party of the working man" has left him and never looked back.
People like you really make me sick.
2/21/13, 6:23 PM
What, are you going to challenge him to an e-duel? Among the David Hackett Fischer originals we call that "handbags at 10 paces"
"I am from India, a lot of Jews like Hindus, and visit India, why is that?"
ReplyDeleteSaid to be the only country that had no anti-semitism with the jews. Multiculti, racial hodge-podge, world's largest democracy, oi vey!
dirk said: The Reactionary Right is really the New Left, full of anti-capitalist resentnicks.
ReplyDeleteHunsdon replied: You could have made that really funny if you'd ended "resent-nick-diazes."
Anon 5:49, as someone who has lived his entire life inside Route 495, I can unequivocally state that Bostonians are the rudest people this side of the French. Yes, ruder than New Yorkers.
ReplyDeleteWe in have "blunt New England frankness" from the WASPS, the usual neurotic carping from our Jews, and outright a$$holery from the sons and daughters of Eire. Not a happy-making mix. I've encountered none of the above during my travels in the South.
ReplyDeleteI dont know much about Jews in the South but Southerners are wild about Israel.Part of it is the large evanglical block who are for Israel due to the Biblical aspect but also Southerners appreciate warrior types and Israel currently fits the mold.
It was mostly due to his military background that Colin Powell got most of his support from white Southern men in 1996 when he was contemplating a run for President.
re Hindus and Jews
Neither believe in conversion,have common enemies and so far they are not competitors so they make good neighbors.
However things are starting to get interesting with more Indians getting into the financial sector and diamond trad (in Antwerp the Gujarati diamond cutters are on the verge of muscling out the centuries old business of Orthodox Jews) so there is a risk of ill feeling on both sides as Indians increasingly invade their turf.
Truth be told, Indian viewpoints are pretty schizophrenic.On one hand a few years ago, India was voted the most pro Israel country.OTOH this is a country where a vast majority still admire Subhash Chandra Bose, Gandhis former 2nd in command, who took his pacifism sparingly and sought Hitlers and Tojos help in invading India from the northeast.To this end he vetoed Nehrus offer for taking in Jewish refugees from Germany.
We also have a restaurant named after Hitler and Mein Kamf is somehow considered a best selling 'management manual'!
Welcome to India!
The phoney Jewish role as racial egalitarians during the Civil Rights movement ....
ReplyDeleteThere was no love lost between the Northern Jews who came down for the Freedom Rides and the local Southern Jews who were content with the (Jim Crow) status quo. Jews were considered "white" for race law purposes - it was never a question (even if it seems that way here sometimes). Southern Jews were financially and socially comfortable and were not interested in changing the system that was working well for them. Even if they were not in love with the idea of racial discrimination, taking an active role might have alienated the local whites who were the customers of their businesses. So they were not exactly glad to see their Yankee brethren causing trouble.
"Southerners appreciate warrior types and Israel currently fits the mold."
ReplyDeleteyeah, they like Negro athletes too, and want their daughters to marry football players.
As Bob Whitaker has quite well documented, the South was never "anti-semitic" because the Jews in the South were never anti-Southern. There were two Senators from the South who were Jews before the Civil War: one was Judah P. Benjamin, and both were staunch segregationists.
ReplyDeleteIf you mean what you say at the end, tommy, why refer to "the Jew" this and that beforehand?
ReplyDeleteYour inference is pointless because I only denied believing that every Jew is a "goy hater." You imply that because I may believe in some other things concerning "the Jew" that I must necessarily also adhere to the idea that every Jew is a "goy hater." The problem is that I did not state my disbelief in every generalization that could made about Jews, only that one. It's illogical and rather paranoid to believe that subscribing to a generalization necessarily implies a belief in every possible generalization.
Nevertheless, please point out a single instance of the use of the phrase "the Jew" in one of my previous posts on this thread.
In the future, how about catching my drift and addressing the substance rather than the semantics of my argument?
"(in Antwerp the Gujarati diamond cutters are on the verge of muscling out the centuries old business of Orthodox Jews) so there is a risk of ill feeling on both sides as Indians increasingly invade their turf."
ReplyDeleteInteresting. I thought that might happen.
"The Reactionary Right is really the New Left, full of anti-capitalist resentnicks."
ReplyDeleteThe Paleo-right is centred on tribe and . The globalist version of capitalism is as much an enemy of that as globalist communism was.
tommy --
ReplyDeleteYour tone and your semantics are telling. Sometimes what what one does and how one does it are more honest than what one says or writes.
"True and my experience has been that both more conservative religious Jews and secular Jews more or less revile these people even as evangelicals fawn over them."
ReplyDeleteWould you respect anyone who fawned over and idolized you merely because you belonged to a particular ethnic group? I sure as hell wouldn't. The evangelicals who behave that way are imbeciles.
"... a vast majority still admire Subhash Chandra Bose, Gandhis former 2nd in command, who took his pacifism sparingly and sought Hitlers and Tojos help in invading India from the northeast.To this end he vetoed Nehrus offer for taking in Jewish refugees from Germany."
ReplyDeleteThis makes Bose's relationship with Hitler sound a bit more distant than seems likely (I think the following means at one time he was a commander in the Waffen SS?):
"In Germany, he instituted the Special Bureau for India under Adam von Trott zu Solz, broadcasting on the German-sponsored Azad Hind Radio. He founded the Free India Center in Berlin, and created the Indian Legion (consisting of some 4500 soldiers) out of Indian prisoners of war who had previously fought for the British in North Africa prior to their capture by Axis forces. The Indian Legion was attached to the Wehrmacht, and later transferred to the Waffen SS. Its members swore the following allegiance to Hitler and Bose: "I swear by God this holy oath that I will obey the leader of the German race and state, Adolf Hitler, as the commander of the German armed forces in the fight for India, whose leader is Subhas Chandra Bose".
...
He travelled by the German submarine U-180 around the Cape of Good Hope to southeast of Madagascar, where he was transferred to the Japanese submarine I-29 for the rest of the journey to Imperial Japan. "
Gandhi had an intesting second-in-command, makes you wonder how much we know about the real (non-Hollywood) Gandhi.
LBJ also ended JFK's inquiry into whether Israel was working on nuclear weapons and swept the unpleasantness regarding the USS Liberty under the rug. It sure didn't get him any gratitude, though.
ReplyDeleteNixon carried on a similar approach, but in a more organized fashion, using his chief domestic adviser D.P. Moynihan to organize a lasting neoconservative movement.
"But the way I recall it, [LBJ] wasn't exactly all that popular with New York Jews, for all that."
ReplyDeleteWas there any president more influential in ushering in our brave new post-American oligarchy than Lyndon Baines Johnson?
"Ask Chuck Hagel for saying that he's for USA than for Israel."
ReplyDelete-Speaking of Hagel, anyone else catch the SNL skit about the confirmation hearings? That's some funny sh*t.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gynby-0kkTg
It was cut from the final show, so its only a dress rehearsal, but still they had balls to go that far with it at least. Its like they're trying to prove the skit correct.
My "aunt" and "cousins" are Jewish. I didn't even put 2 + 2 together until I was probably 13 or 14. They and their family, fellow small business owners in the same block as my grandfather's stores, were so well assimilated.
ReplyDeleteHeck, we used to go over for a "Christmas brunch" every year, and exchange cards and gifts. Bonus: we also got to play with tops and give trinkets for a week or so around Christmas as well. Thanksgivings with oyster dressing, shrimp boils, etc.
When my "aunt" was widowed, she remarried to a Northeastern Jewish guy, and it was only then that any difference became known, and while still close, his slightly PITA nature has definitely cooled things a bit between us, the years doing more.
"Was there any president more influential in ushering in our brave new post-American oligarchy then Lyndon Baines Johnson?"
ReplyDeleteIn 1965 Johnson enacted the new wide open doors immigration law.
[ This has resulted in totally and irrevocably changing the entire face of the country and its demographics, with long-term consequences yet unknown. ]
In 1965 Johnson also began an open-ended full scale U.S. military intervention in South Vietnam.
[ This caused the death of 58,000 young Americans and resulted in the country's first serious strategic defeat. ]
He was the penultimate example of your "Invade the world, Invite the world", lunacy.
His policies proved so disastrous he didn't even have the courage to stand for re-election in 1968.
"Was there any president more influential in ushering in our brave new post-American oligarchy then Lyndon Baines Johnson?"
ReplyDeleteJohnson's Great Society experiment isn't exactly working out either. The "elimination of poverty and racial injustice." Sounds easy! All we've gotta do is get with the program! Of course, Nixon and Ford didn't put on the breaks either, and now here we are.
Would you respect anyone who fawned over and idolized you merely because you belonged to a particular ethnic group? I sure as hell wouldn't. The evangelicals who behave that way are imbeciles.
ReplyDeleteSorta like humping through a hole in a sheet.
I grew up in South Carolina. The Episcopal elite might have looked down on the Jews a bit but they looked down on everybody. The Jews were considered white and that was all that counted. That will probably come as a great shock to several of the deranged posters above. The Medical school in South Carolina did limit Jewish admissions in the 1930s -1950s, but all that meant was that only the most exceptionally talented Jews became doctors, something which greatly increased the reputation of Jewish doctors back in those days. And the State of Israel? Well they love the State of Israel in South Carolina. They love the IDF.
ReplyDeleteMichelangelo's great sculpture of Moses has horns. Giorgio Vasari in the "Life of Michelangelo" wrote: "Michelangelo finished the Moses in marble, a statue of five braccia, unequalled by any modern or ancient work. Seated in a serious attitude, he rests with one arm on the tables, and with the other holds his long glossy beard, the hairs, so difficult to render in sculpture, being so soft and downy that it seems as if the iron chisel must have become a brush. The beautiful face, like that of a saint and mighty prince, seems as one regards it to need the veil to cover it, so splendid and shining does it appear, and so well has the artist presented in the marble the divinity with which God had endowed that holy countenance. The draperies fall in graceful folds, the muscles of the arms and bones of the hands are of such beauty and perfection, as are the legs and knees, the feet being adorned with excellent shoes, that Moses may now be called the friend of God more than ever, since God has permitted his body to be prepared for the resurrection before the others by the hand of Michelangelo. The Jews still go every Saturday in troops to visit and adore it as a divine, not a human thing."
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_(Michelangelo)