February 17, 2014

Good Smoking v. Bad Smoking

I was driving through the Hollywood Hills on Laurel Canyon yesterday, which now is bedecked in signs announcing that smoking is banned in the canyon. There's been a drought for a year and a half, so somebody tossing a smoldering butt out the window might send the small patches of indigenous forest left up in flames, and some of the increasingly seedy houses along the two-lane winding highway, too. 

The most interesting sign was on the little (and extremely expensive) convenience mart in the depths of Laurel Canyon. In the spirit of Frank Zappa, the sign emphasized that the smoking ban included "spliffs," which, these days, needs restating. With marijuana legalization ongoing, dope smoking is being transformed in the (weed-addled) popular mind from a vice to something that's good for you (you couldn't buy it at a Medical Marijuana dispensary if it wasn't medicine, right?) and no doubt the environment as well.  Similarly, all the cultural opposition to smoking shouldn't apply to dope smoking. It's totally different. It couldn't cause a brushfire. It's good smoking, not Bad Smoking.

As the marijuana legalization movement strengthens, you can see hints of how hard it is to hit the libertarian sweet spot where something is simultaneously legalized but remains rare and distasteful. People, especially young people, pick up messages from society about what is winning and what is losing more than they pick up nuanced messages. Smoking tobacco is losing so it seems reasonable to ban smoking it even in your own car while driving through a brushfire zone. Smoking marijuana is winning, so it doesn't seem like the ban on smoking in Laurel Canyon applies to dope.

For example, legalizing pornography leads to a situation in which participants are referred to not as "performing whores," but as "porn stars." Above a certain IQ level, the emphasis in that phrase falls ironically on the first term, but to a fair number of teenage girls with two-digit IQs, the "star" part sounds most intriguing.
   

265 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Hitler was against smoking

Because of health issues and a big reason was due to it being an import.

Anonymous said...

"so drug laws are an effective expedient for wiping scum off the streets without having to go through a massive legal kampf every time."

anti-gun laws in places like NY serve the same purpose. I suppose you support them as well?

Jack Chick the Neocon Neopet said...

Marijuana is nothing other than the devil's weed, and needs to be utterly exterminated. There is no room for marijuana or other drugs in the civilized Christian world. All drugs do is open up the spirit world and let in demons to corrupt right-thinking Americans. Christians have no needs for any sort of spirits, only Jesus. The law needs to be changed so that drugs users are either stoned to death (poetic justice indeed) or forcibly exorcised of their demons. Long hair and beards are also antennas for homosexual and effeminate demons, and must be shorn. Yessirree mein fuhrer, lets all go back to 1776 BC when Jesus founded America to be strong, free, and squeaky-clean.

Anonymous said...

1916 Chicago had like 10 homicides per 100,000 people. Today, it's 15.2. Of course, in 1916, Chicago was at least 90% white. Now it is 45% white. This does not exactly support your assertion that society a century ago was 'crime free.'

Anonymous said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate_by_decade

Homicide rates are as low today as they were in the pre-Brady fifties. The last time they were significantly lower was 1906. Homicide rates were on a rise before prohibition.

Certainly an argument for immigration restrictionism I haven't specifically seen before.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

""The war on drugs IS a war on our civil liberties.""

Not our liberties, yours. I don't appreciate being rhetorically roped into that degenerate lifestyle. Criminals shouldn't have any liberties. All civilized societies since the dawn of history have built and maintained prisons."

Well, if you enjoy living in a society where the police are entitled to kick in your door in the middle of the night, shoot your dog - and maybe you - and get away with it with impunity, because some lowlife informant fingered you, or they heard something (or, according to a recent Supreme Court Decision - din't hear something), or couldn't be bothered to get the right address, fine. If you think the TSA should be able to seize your money at the airport because they suspect that your money "is guilty", fine. If you think the government has a right to know about any bank deposit that you make that is over $10,000 - or suspiciously just under $10,000, fine. Go live somewhere else. Leave me and my liberties alone.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

""Just about every kind of drug was sold legally, over the counter, a hundred years ago""


Bull. A lot of illegal drugs of today simply did not exist a hundred years ago. There was no LSD or PCP or Ecstasy."

Actually I believe that LSD was legal for ten years or so.

"Other drugs which did exist back then were much, much less powerful than the modern variants. The cocaine and marijuana of a hundred years ago had the same relationship to their modern counterparts that a bottle of Bud Light has to a bottle of Bacardi 151."

And they got stronger because they were illegal - the more concentrated the drug, the higher the profit per unit volume, an important parameter when one is dealing in illegal substances.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

None of my friends/family have had to deal with a no-knock warrant. None of my friends/family have had their property seized."

Not everyone is your friend or family. Anyway, give it time.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

Have you heard of.......Bobbi Starr, a former professional oboist?"

And who became a professional clarinetist.

Mr. Anon said...

"Power Child said...

BTW I love the assumption that anyone who opposes drug prohibition is a libertarian."

Yes, this seems to be a common misconception. I am not a libertarian, and I am for limited legalization. I oppose the war on drugs because I think it does more ill than good, specifically in giving the government ever more expansive and invasive police powers, and in leading to the militarization of the police - a trend which started well before 9/11 (and which, certainly, was made worse by the "war on terror").

I also don't understand the argument that goes: Drugs are bad for you - so bad that society must intervene and save you from yourself. And how does it do this? By throwing you in prison where you will be beaten and raped?

It is true that a lot of drug users commit other sorts of crimes as well, and that it is easier to secure a conviction against them on drug charges and so get them off the street. Consequently, legalization probably will result in some of them going free. But contraband crimes could also be used by the police to get innocent people put away. I don't think that happens much now, but if unchecked, I think it could become common. The police in this country increasingly seem to act with less and less restraint.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

Have you seen Hogarth's Gin Lane? The Wiki article on prohibition begins with 3rd millenium BC China, basically the dawn of history."

So are you advocating the prohibition of gin?

You can take my martini when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Auntie Analogue said...


Big Insurance fed Big Money to anti-tobacco campaigners, despite the fact that smokers' earlier deaths relieve Big Insurance of the much larger payouts for lengthy assisted living & exorbitantly priced end of life care for those who live to be superannuated.

Big Insurance also fed Big Money to front groups that forced every state to outlaw good old-fashioned cigarettes, which forced smokers who want ready-made ciggies to smoke the so-called "Fire-Safe Cigarettes" that taste like a mouthful of nickels & make smokers suffer an assortment of ill-effects from Fire-Safe Cigarettes' intentionally poisonous additives - the whole point of these FSC's is to make ciggies taste awful, thus to humiliate smokers & thus also to reduce the number of smokers. Since FSC's have become the only kind of smokes you can buy, there has been no - repeat: no - reduction in the number of fires caused by unattended cigarettes, but Big Insurance somehow suddenly doesn't care that forcing FSC's on smokers has failed to reduce such fires.

Countenance nailed it: "The reason the left is waging a jihad against tobacco cigarettes because they hate the kind of people that smoke them."

As one bright guy (whose name escapes me at present) said, tyranny is not about control, it's true purpose is to HUMILIATE. And there you have the true goal of the Multiculturalist War On Whites, the Puritopian War On Smokers/Perfume/Carnivores/&c., the War On Christianity, Obama's "I Have A Pen" War on what's left of our Constitution, & all the other prohibitionist Puritopian wars on all sorts of things that Puritopians find intolerable: HUMILIATION. There you have the Almighty Nanny State treating us, the people, as if we were children helpless without Big Government to tell us how to "choose" to live our lives.

Countenance commented further: "If it was about health, then why are the anti-tobacco jihadists now on the warpath against e-cigs?"

Again, it's not about health or morality, it is entirely about HUMILIATION of those whom the Puritopians hold in contempt, for whichever "reason" they hold them in contempt. It's about who gets to sneer while pooping down on whom.

M.B. Hankinshaw commented: "[C]igarettes were for a long time regarded as essentially a feminine thing."

Yeh. Well, tell that to Humphrey Bogart & John Wayne.

As far as our Dear Rulers' power to Wage Jihad on Smoking, let us recall the deputy sherriff's line in 'Easy Rider': "You animals ain't smart enough to play with fire." Myself I reject the notion that our Dear Rulers should have the power to brand me as being not smart enough to play with fire.

Finally, for all you Puritopian prohibitionists out there (I am gobsmacked to see so many such humorless - and, by some miracle, completely viceless - Puritopian tight-asses commenting here), let us recall H.L. Mencken's immortal epigram: "Puritanism. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."

The problem is not Puritanism in itself; the problem is surrendering to the state the power to SPECIFY & ENFORCE Puritanism.

We Americans were a happier, far more easygoing people before the Puritopian prohibitionist scare campaigns took away things people enjoy - which brought on widespread addiction to Valium, antidepressants, anti-anxiety drugs, Ritalin, and what have you - all because Puritopian prohibitionists drove people into the clutches of Big Pharma. In the old days people just lit one up, nursed a beer, or belted back a shot of their favorite poison - and nobody so much as batted an eyelash because we were all vastly more tolerant (there were no "micraggressions") & because we were not a hierarchy of hyper-sensitive smug finger-wagging tattletales and rats.

David said...

I'm noticing a new epidemic of littering among the young. It can't be just a Mexican thing, since they haven't overrun my area.

There is at least as much litter this year on the interstate exit near my Tennessee abode as there was in a pretty crappy place in Mexico. And there are nearly zero Mexicans around here.

I used to go pick some of it up, but no way this time. It is truly daunting in amount.

It's like people don't give a damn anymore.

Anonymous said...

I'm surprised nobody mentioned DXM (cough syrup) and DPH (Benadryl), both not just legal but OTC, and much more harmful than marijuana.

Anonymous said...

As one bright guy (whose name escapes me at present) said, tyranny is not about control, it's true purpose is to HUMILIATE.

Both. It's benevolent sadism.

And there you have the true goal of the Multiculturalist War On Whites, the Puritopian War On Smokers/Perfume/Carnivores/&c., the War On Christianity,

It's also more than a little bit of karma. If certain people weren't treated so bad by Whites, Smokers, Perfumers, Carnivores, Christians, Hypocrites, etc. there never would have been this backlash. But too late to do anything about it now, other than take off our ideological blinkers and defend the freedoms we have left.

Mind you, haters gotta hate, and even if one side never fired the first shot, someone will still find an excuse....

Anonymous said...

Put it this way: I'd rather see compulsory sterilization of feebleminders than any sort of drug prohibition law.

Anonymous said...

"However, the problem with that reasoning is that it is dependent on the old saw that young people are naturally rebellious."

Exactly. They're only rebellious towards their parent's authority because they are conforming to the more powerful authority of the media / schools via their peer group.

.

"I think some of Steve Sailer's proposals (like segregating prisons by weight class) seem reasonable"

That would be a great idea.

.

"Just about every kind of drug was sold legally, over the counter, a hundred years ago... People are probably worse today"

We didn't used to have a malign elite using the media to poison the population into self-harming behavior.

The key element in the non-war on drugs is the social pressure - especially regarding the role models provided for kids. If there is no social pressure then the "war" is fake. If there is social pressure but it is pressure from kid's role models to take drugs then there is a real war but it's a war *for* drugs.

All the legal stuff is a distraction from the real (social) war in favor of drugs.

.

"Police in American and England circa 1900 had no problem maintaining an essentially zero crime society without the need for gun or drug laws. That's because society didn't mollycoddle criminals, or think police were all jackbooted thugs."

I think in the UK it was the result of what was effectively a long-term eugenic crime policy that bred out criminals from a fixed population over a sustained period. It broke down when mass immigration added too many new people at once.

.

"Homicide rates are as low today as they were in the pre-Brady fifties. The last time they were significantly lower was 1906. Homicide rates were on a rise before prohibition."

Only with vastly higher incarceration levels.

.

"I'm noticing a new epidemic of littering among the young. It can't be just a Mexican thing, since they haven't overrun my area...It's like people don't give a damn anymore."

If that's correct and white people have started to give up then we're near the end.

Power Child said...

"It's just way to get at very dangerous, otherwise untouchable criminals."

I used to believe this was a winning, often-overlooked argument in defense of drug prohibition. For a while it caused me to change my mind.

Later I came to realize it is an argument that is indeed often-overlooked, but it is not winning.

The key phrase there is "get at." Sure, drug prohibition creates a handy proxy for cops to "get at" violent (or potentially violent) thugs and take them off the streets.

But then what happens? Do they stay off the streets? Are they unable to manipulate things from prison? Does prison not serve as a great criminal networking and training tool for them?

Steve Sailer even blogged about how violent crime rates may have in fact been rising in spite of all this celebrating over the success of drug laws as proxies. And it makes perfect sense why.

Anonymous said...

I lived for a long time in a major European city where prostitution is legal, safe and inexpensive and I took full advantage of that fact. My experience is that - gasp! - prostitutes are human beings who run the gamut of personality types and intelligence levels. Some are quite personable and smart. They do tend to come from working class backgrounds. And, as another commenter noted, most probably do have a history of sexual abuse.


So you acknowledge that you took advantage of abused women, but you don't feel even a twinge of embarrassment about it? There's a reason why everyone across the political spectrum agrees that libertarians are repulsive trash.

Anonymous said...

"A lot of illegal drugs of today simply did not exist a hundred years ago. There was no LSD or PCP or Ecstasy."

Actually I believe that LSD was legal for ten years or so.



Can you say "idiotic non sequitur"? There was no LSD a hundred years ago. It was first created in 1938. This would remain the case even if LSD were legal today.

Anonymous said...

Puritopian prohibitionists out there (I am gobsmacked to see so many such humorless - and, by some miracle, completely viceless - Puritopian tight-asses commenting here), let us recall H.L. Mencken's immortal epigram: "Puritanism. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."


If you think people who take drugs are happy, you urgently need a clue-bat upside the head. They're miserable screwed-up people trying to escape the reality of their miserable screwed-up existence.

Anonymous said...

Sure, drug prohibition creates a handy proxy for cops to "get at" violent (or potentially violent) thugs and take them off the streets.


But then what happens? Do they stay off the streets?


As was pointed out earlier, using your logic we'd have to abolish all prisons and all laws on the grounds that they have failed to eliminate all crime.

Anonymous said...

I'd rather see compulsory sterilization of feebleminders than any sort of drug prohibition law.


At the deepest heart of libertarianism lurks a tyrannical and totalitarian core.

BurplesonAFB said...

If I recall there was some scoffing when Pinker's Better Angels came out about how homicides have been reduced by better medical technology and the fact that 90% of people are walking around wearing an ambulance signalling device at all times.

And that if you look at hospital admittance records, extreme life threatening assaults have been on the rise during this 20 year fall in crime rates.

I don't have any statistics or links, sorry.

hawt thespian action said...

So Porn Stars are prostitutes who frequently have sex with other prostitutes (plus whatever they take on the side)

I get a kick out of the modern fetish of some demarcation between Whore and Artiste, as opposed to most of civilized history where it's been on a spectrum. The basic idea is that spouting dialogue in a stupid play or boffing for a web camera isn't the most productive pastime for society's improvement. From the Victorian times well into the modern era "actress" was a common worldwide euphemism for rental dates just like "escort" and "socialite."

As in the immortal coinage: "Actress/Model/Whatever"

Anonymous said...

Only an autist would confuse the Founding Father's limited government philosophy with the insane magical thinking that is modern libertarian thought of Caplan and ilk.

So thanks for proving my point, earlier anon.

Melendwyr said...

Libertarianism, I find, typically comes in two flavours: [...] Randian types who simply don't care about their inferiors.

There is a significant difference between 'caring about' and 'caring for'.

David said...

>[Illegal drugs] got stronger because they were illegal - the more concentrated the drug, the higher the profit per unit volume<

Yeah, except when the drugs are lethally adulterated because they are illegal. Right?

I just love ecomomics cant; it can be twisted any which way. The squeaky chalkboard of economics - squeak, squeak! - also demonstrates that, at least on street level, criminalization pays because dealers can charge more for less.

Look, I'm not trying to be a smartass, but the best (i.e., most consistent) argument that druggies can make is simply this: people want to get high and they will get high, no matter what, period, full stop. So that drug enforcement is an expensive waste of time. "They're gonna get high anyway" defeats 99 % of objections and doesn't jam you up with economics BS.

map said...

Longitudinal homicide data is all very misleading because they do not account for advances in emergency room care. A seemingly low homicide rate may very well reflect a $100,000 worth of equipment and training used to save a life and may not reflect a lack of trying.

It's ridiculous to think that Chicago is only marginally more dangerous now than in 1910. In reality, it is orders of magnitude more dangerous.

Anonymous said...

Libertarianism, I find, typically comes in two flavours: [...] Randian types who simply don't care about their inferiors.

There is a significant difference between 'caring about' and 'caring for'.


And I don't give a flying fuck either way, pardon my Armenian.

Why should I care about retarded "underprivileged" basTARDS and their liberal sympathizers, who made my life a living hell, directly and indirectly. Why should I have to live like a monk because some dodo can't hold his liquor, or grass, or whatever? Let Darwin sort 'em out.

They don't need my sympathy, or any more of my karma. I already paid with compound interest. And quite frankly, they are more than capable of taking care of themselves, with their great numbers and group solidarity.

map said...

The difference between left-wing and right-wing support for drug use hinges on the level of dysfunction within an individual that such drug use causes.

Smoking cigarettes, doing shots of hard liquor or nursing a beer are not deleterious to a person holding down a job or operating heavy machinery. Tobacco smokers remain fully functional human beings. Alcohol abuse is a problem, but the ratio of alcoholics to alcohol users is so small that alcoholism is largely a moral failing.

Marijuana users, on the other hand, are basket cases that can't hold down jobs. MJ is a mind-altering substance that makes users dysfunctional. This dysfunctionality is a boon to the left. That is why they want MJ legalized. Left-wing commercial interests will sell MJ to your kids overwhelming the parental support system that is trying to cope, while Left-wing government agencies then step in to "help." Of course, to defray the costs of their "help" they may want to confiscate some of your assets to do it.

Marijuana is a Leftist drug. Once you understand that, opposing it is easy.

Plastic Tom said...


Tobacco smokers remain fully functional human beings.

Yessir, even with terminal lung or throat cancer (which is their problem not mine), they remain fully functional human beings.

Alcohol abuse is a problem, but the ratio of alcoholics to alcohol users is so small

Like hell it is.

that alcoholism is largely a moral failing.

Or an attempt at self-medication.

Marijuana users, on the other hand, are basket cases that can't hold down jobs.

Are you telling me that Steve Jobs can't hold down a job? Really.

MJ is a mind-altering substance that makes users dysfunctional. This dysfunctionality is a boon to the left. That is why they want MJ legalized.

If that is true, then the Left should really push for heroin, crack, and cocaine legalization.

Marijuana is a Leftist drug.

Which was why it was used as an entheogen (look up that word) for thousands of years, and why vodka-swilling militant atheists made Siberian gulags into marijuana rehab centres....

Power Child said...

@map:

Thomas Edison believed of cigarette smokers what you believe of marijuana smokers.

Do you have any evidence for your claim about proportion of alcoholics to alcohol drinkers?

Anonymous said...

"Marijuana is a Leftist drug. Once you understand that, opposing it is easy."

Ok Pops.

Anonymous said...

They're miserable screwed-up people trying to escape the reality of their miserable screwed-up existence.

Like Steve Jobs - that loser layabout.

I don't know how you feel about Oliver Sacks , but I find his work fascinating.

Seriously, some people have screwed up brain chemistry, and circuitry, and it is probably more effective to steer it in a more tolerable direction with some drugs, legal or otherwise, than to try to accomplish such a task by willing that your serotonin not be re-uptaken.

I'm a smoker and it is obvious the culture is selecting against me - I guess they'll have to give me Chantix if I ever end up in a (please kill me first) nursing home.

Power Child said...

@map:

"MJ is a mind-altering substance that makes users dysfunctional. This dysfunctionality is a boon to the left. That is why they want MJ legalized."

Yeah, Bishop Charles Brent, Francis Harrison, Hamilton Wright, Teddy Roosevelt, Henry Anslinger, and all those ladies pushing for alcohol Prohibition were actually hard-line conservatives! If only they had succeeded.

Progressive commies like Clark McReynolds, Joseph Holt Gaines, and Tom Tancredo just want to turn our society into a chaotic egalitarian Detroit-style kibbutz!

We need true conservatives like Joe "Civil Forfeiture" Biden, who is a true right-winger! Barack "Marijuana Crack-down" Obama is a central leader in the Dissident Right! Doesn't his wife Michelle "Let's Move" Robinson write for Vdare.com?

We know this is true because Neocons would never try to infiltrate a political party just to perpetuate eternal war through laws the embroil us in every corner of the globe. And Neocons have made it perfectly clear that the only way to be a conservative is to support drug prohibition. Neocons would never lead us astray, so you'd better listen to them!

Dan said...

Nothing to do with modem surgery is it?

Anonymous said...

"I'm surprised nobody mentioned DXM (cough syrup) and DPH (Benadryl), both not just legal but OTC, and much more harmful than marijuana."

If Hollywood made movies about it kids would start taking it - same as the rest - and then it would have to be made illegal.

Anonymous said...

" prostitutes are human beings who run the gamut of personality types and intelligence levels. Some are quite personable and smart. They do tend to come from working class backgrounds. And, as another commenter noted, most probably do have a history of sexual abuse."

And then you have Suzy Favor Hamilton, the exception that proves the rule.

Plastic Tom said...

We know this is true because Neocons would never try to infiltrate a political party just to perpetuate eternal war through laws the embroil us in every corner of the globe. And Neocons have made it perfectly clear that the only way to be a conservative is to support drug prohibition. Neocons would never lead us astray, so you'd better listen to them!

Neocons are nothing more than modern-day Jesus Freak Crusaders for Israel. Does that make any sense? Such is the Crusader logic about everything: politics, sex, race, drugs. True conservatives recognize the right of human beings to be human beings, not faceless soulless goose-stepping robots.

Anonymous said...

Prostitutes are human beings who run the gamut of personality types and intelligence levels. Some are quite personable and smart. They do tend to come from working class backgrounds.

One thing I have noticed about prostitutes (and call girls, escorts, porn actresses, even legitimate actresses and models) is that they tend to be short on brains, but have top-notch social skills. They would make fine diplomats. State Department, are you listening?

Anyone remember Cicciolina?

Anonymous said...

I'm surprised nobody mentioned DXM (cough syrup) and DPH (Benadryl), both not just legal but OTC, and much more harmful than marijuana.

If Hollywood made movies about it kids would start taking it - same as the rest - and then it would have to be made illegal.


OTC drugs used/abused outside their normal dosage regime* are a very special case. The grandfather effect keeps them legal, just like alcohol, tobacco, and aspirin. It's not likely any of these drugs would be made illegal, at worst prescription only. More likely, and this happens already, that cough syrups (DXM, codeine, promethazine), antihistamines, and antinauseants will be available to people that look like responsible adults. For a pharmacist to give an IQ test to a potential customer would be unthinkable!

(The faux-conservative mentality at work here. Genuine conservatives have no fixation on 1955 plus 1885, but rather use all ten thousand years of human civilization as their guide.)

* - The pharma term for this is "off-label".

DXM is a very special case. It is a legal high that really works, having a dissociative effect much the same as PCP or ketamine. It is not a true psychedelic, all of which are illegal pretty much all around the world. Nor is it a particularly good or safe high.

As for DPH (diphenhydramine) and DMH (dimenhydrinate), they are deliriants, a fairly toxic class of hallucinogenic drugs known for awesomely bad trips. Nearly all deliriants are legal, and have very low addiction potential.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

Can you say "idiotic non sequitur"? There was no LSD a hundred years ago. It was first created in 1938. This would remain the case even if LSD were legal today."

I didn't say there was. I said that there was a period of time - ten or twenty years - when LSD was not illegal. The Earth did not spiral into the Sun.

You sound like a guy who might benefit from a doobie now and again.

Mr. Anon said...

"David said...

>[Illegal drugs] got stronger because they were illegal - the more concentrated the drug, the higher the profit per unit volume<

Yeah, except when the drugs are lethally adulterated because they are illegal. Right?"

What you say is often true. What I said is true too. What's your point?

Mr. Anon said...

"map said...

Marijuana users, on the other hand, are basket cases that can't hold down jobs."

That is not true. There are plenty of habitual mariuana users who hold down jobs, are responsible citizens, etc. There are even high-achieving pot users. For that matter there are cocaine users who can hold down jobs - even heroin users (although probably not as many). Hysterical assertions are not a substitute for facts.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

""They're miserable screwed-up people trying to escape the reality of their miserable screwed-up existence.""

Like Steve Jobs - that loser layabout."

Carl Sagan too. Another no-account never-was.

Mr. Anon said...

"David said...

I just love ecomomics cant; it can be twisted any which way."

I probably share your disdain for economic arguments. I don't believe that people are solely economic creatures. And I am distrustful of economists opinions on a wide range of subjects. That said, economics is not all wrong - supply-and-demand for example - I buy that.

Anonymous said...

For that matter there are cocaine users who can hold down jobs.

Cocaine was THE yuppie drug.

Reg Cæsar said...

. For that matter there are cocaine users who can hold down jobs - even heroin users (although probably not as many). --Mr Anon

A shipmate of mine back in the druggy '70s (when the "smoking lamp was lit") told me of his heroin addict uncle who kept his habit undetected during his long career in the Army or USMC.

How did he manage that? By shooting into the corners of his eyes, where marks wouldn't show.

They were from western New York. Ethnicity? Seneca or Tuscarora or one of those.

Who says Indians aren't disciplined?

Plastic Tom said...

I might as well bring up the case that a government agency in Australia proposed handing out khat (a paradoxical herbal stimulant) to young aborigines in order to keep them away from addictive and violence-inducing alcohol (especially for abo's). That was an intelligent and practical form of harm reduction.
That plan was defeated by the Jesus Freaks on the ground of it being "racist". Apparently, like "map", they though it would be morally better for aborigines to drink crusader juice (or be prescribed Ritalin.)

map said...

Plastic Tom,

1) Yes, smoking is unhealthy. You will get lung cancer or throat cancer. Yet, at what age do these diseases typically show up? Usually in the 50's. Your 50's is when a lot of other illnesses end up rearing their ugly heads.

In other words, the choice between smoking and not smoking is not lung cancer or pristine health. It is lung cancer or something that kills you sooner or later.

What tobacco does not do is make it difficult or impossible to hold down a job, raise a family, using heavy dangerous machinery, etc., things that heavy smokers have been able to do easily while heavy pot users cannot.

2) Almost every legal adult in the United States drinks. Almost everyone imbibes. Out of, what, a hundred million adults, how many become alcoholics? 1-2%? Maybe less? Yes, alcoholism is a moral failing, because self-medication, no matter well-intentioned, never really works.

3) There are always exceptions that prove the rule, like Steve Jobs. That does not apply to the general case. Tell me, what do you think the term "pothead" describes?

4) entheogen A psychoactive agent (e.g., ayahuasca, peyote, psilocybin mushrooms) which is used in a mystical or shamanic context, allegedly to enhance healing, transcendence, revelation, meditation, psychonautics or psychedelic therapy.

Exactly my point. MJ is a psychoactive agent.

map said...

Power Child,

Alcohol is ubiquitous. The number of alcoholics would have to be relatively small.

What does Thomas Edison have to do with anything?

map said...

Power Child,

"Yeah, Bishop Charles Brent, Francis Harrison, Hamilton Wright, Teddy Roosevelt, Henry Anslinger, and all those ladies pushing for alcohol Prohibition were actually hard-line conservatives! If only they had succeeded."

Today, these people are called "environmentalists." Environmentalism was not the first movement to give up something that is relatively harmless and useful.

I don't know what Tom Tancredo has to do with this. I don't support civil forfeiture. I don't see what neocons have to do with this.

Plastic Tom said...

Alcohol is ubiquitous. The number of alcoholics would have to be relatively small.

It wasn't ubiquitous in pre-Columbian America.

4) entheogen A psychoactive agent (e.g., ayahuasca, peyote, psilocybin mushrooms) which is used in a mystical or shamanic context,

And marijuana.

Mystical or shamanic context = religious = spiritual = godly = traditional = right wing not left wing.

Or are non-crusader religions not counted as religions at all?

Power Child said...

@map:

"I don't know what Tom Tancredo has to do with this. I don't support civil forfeiture. I don't see what neocons have to do with this."

You don't seem to know much of anything except what Neocons have told you to think.

When a Neocon says "Jump" you say "How high, sir?"

map said...

Plastic Tom,

I don't know what you are trying to address. The existential fact remains that the same people who vilify tobacco smoking are the same people who lionize marijuana usage. Both of these people happen to be Democrats. Don't you think they are doing this because they have an agenda that they want to pursue and they understand that legalizing MJ serves their agenda in the same way vilifying smoking serves their agenda? What makes you think that Democrats are conforming an issue to your particular sensibilities? After all, libertardians also want open borders. Is the open borders agenda shaping up along libertardian lines or along Democrat lines?

A Democrat supporting is prima facie evidence that the issue now needs to be investigated very closely to try to identify and counter the Democrat agenda underneath it.

Power Child said...

@map:

"I don't know what Tom Tancredo has to do with this. I don't support civil forfeiture. I don't see what neocons have to do with this."

You don't appear to know much of anything except what Neocons have told you.

When a Neocon says "Jump", you say "How high, sir?"

To cover your tracks, like all Neocons do, you add:

"A Democrat supporting is prima facie evidence that the issue now needs to be investigated very closely to try to identify and counter the Democrat agenda underneath it."

But your cover is blown, because you support one of the Democrats' most influential and successful policy campaigns of the past century--the War on Drugs.

You want to have it both ways: you want to pretend to be against illegal immigration, civil asset forfeiture, and playing world police, but you fail to see that these are all as essential to keep drug prohibition going strong as is the converse.

map said...

Power Child,

As "Jody" put it, the Democrats are fighting a War for Drugs, not a War against Drugs. Democrats control the media and they portray drug use as sexy and cool. That is what is preventing the law enforcement arm of it from having any effect.

This, of course, is by design. Democrat propaganda promotes drug use among the population, negating law enforcement, which then calls for drug legalization that will lead to an explosion of drug addicts, which, of course, benefits Democrats.

Power Child said...

@map:

Jody is wrong. The major champions and supporters of the War on Drugs since its inception a century ago have been mostly Democrats, and then after the 1960s the Neocons got in on the act too. Pat Buchanan- and Ann Coulter-types are the exception that prove the rule. Don't take the word of anonymous internet commenters like Jody and me; go look it up for yourself.

What Democrats and their Neocon allies want is cultural permissiveness coupled with legal restrictiveness. This gives them the best of both worlds: more welfare applicants and secured votes, but also more excuses/opportunities to Invade/Invite the World, expand the rehab industry, smuggle weapons to cartels, etc.

Power Child said...

@map:

BTW, Democrats and Neocons are both safe in the assumption that drug addicts and other fringe groups will never argue persuasively for drug legalization, but will argue the loudest. The Democrats/Neocons know that people like you will therefore dismiss anyone who argues for drug legalization as a loony libertarian or a drug user or both. You have fallen right into their trap and are now complicit in their policy goals.

Sean said...

If they're a few million ahead by their mid twenties (yes several are), in my book they are stars. You think there is any young woman who has not seen enough porn online to understand what is involved in taking a run at porn stardom? They might not have understood back in 1976, but now they know. Anyway, how does that differ from all the silly girls' failed attempts at movie stardom that ended up with them as call girls?

I've read that most of the lesser female performers combine it with hooking. So it does not pay that well for most. Girls want to be thought beautiful and desirable, some want that above all else, and in porn they get to be, even though they are barely average in looks. And they get to make more money than they could any other way, certainly by only working a couple of hours a day. So the only girls in porn who can be said to be stupid are those who were in porn without realising they were good looking enough to make it as a mainstream model or actress (eg Traci Lords and virtually no others).

I think you will find that it's possible to make a few million in porn, for a popular female performer. Sasha Grey did it without much in the way of looks. Of course, you can always say they were too pretty or too smart for the business in the first place, so they must be stupid really.

Anonymous said...

schnapps:

This, of course, is by design. Democrat propaganda promotes drug use among the population, negating law enforcement, which then calls for drug legalization that will lead to an explosion of drug addicts, which, of course, benefits Democrats.

Why should the democrats go to such trouble, when they have already brainwashed the medical and educational ideologues that Ritalin is good for children? Starting doping at six years of age leads to an explosion of drug addicts like nothing else.

Anonymous said...

"Why should the democrats go to such trouble, when they have already brainwashed the medical and educational ideologues that Ritalin is good for children?"

Not go to, went to. Pushing illegal drugs started long before ritalin was available.

Unknown said...

All I know is that smoking is bad no matter what method you use. The worst is when you are a Weed Addict.

Dave said...

Cannabis prohibition makes people on the right feel good and 'conservative' just like supporting welfare makes leftists feel 'progressive'. There's no logical justification for the prohibition but it makes you feel good therefore it's good. After all you, like the liberals, are very important.

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