From the New York Times:
Football’s Loving Culture
By NICHOLAS DAWIDOFF FEB. 14, 2014
... The very nature of football, focused as it is on strength, virility, grace and manly bonding, has an obvious homoerotic component for those who play and for those who watch.
As I pointed out in 1994 in "Why Lesbians Aren't Gay," the existence of popular gay sex fantasies about manly men who are actually secretly gay -- "How could they resist each other? I couldn't!" -- isn't actually evidence that they are gay.
Tragically, we have a lot of real data about male homosexuality by profession from AIDS deaths in the 1980s and 1990s. There was at least one among former NFL players (and there are rumors about at least one more who died young), but there are a lot of former NFL players. In contrast, there aren't many famous male figure skaters but a high proportion died of AIDS, such as both the 1972 and 1976 Olympic gold medalists. (See the 11/17/92 article in the New York Times: "AIDS deaths tear at figure-skating world.")
A lot of gay males might fantasize about being effeminate skaters like Jason Brown or Johnny Weir, but not about being with them. It's more fun for them to fantasize about all the homoerotic energy there must be in the team shower with Antonio Cromartie.
Tragically, we have a lot of real data about male homosexuality by profession from AIDS deaths in the 1980s and 1990s. There was at least one among former NFL players (and there are rumors about at least one more who died young), but there are a lot of former NFL players. In contrast, there aren't many famous male figure skaters but a high proportion died of AIDS, such as both the 1972 and 1976 Olympic gold medalists. (See the 11/17/92 article in the New York Times: "AIDS deaths tear at figure-skating world.")
A lot of gay males might fantasize about being effeminate skaters like Jason Brown or Johnny Weir, but not about being with them. It's more fun for them to fantasize about all the homoerotic energy there must be in the team shower with Antonio Cromartie.
"The very nature of football, focused as it is on strength, virility, grace and manly bonding"
ReplyDeleteI guess the military is homo too! Ah, the Spartans with their mandatory male-bonding. So, homo culture is macho-fascist after all. No women allowed. We powerful and muscled narcissistic men.
Football, the homo-Nazi SA sport.
Btw, grace and virility? I suppose receivers can be graceful, but rest of the game is anything but graceful. What is so graceful about 300 lb Negro and Hillbilly flattening a hapless quarterback into a pancake?
Professional Wrestling must be the fruitest of them all.
ReplyDeleteWrestling!! Was it 'homophobic' of summer olympics to nix it for 2016?
ReplyDeleteA cynic might argue that Gaying Up Football is designed to Lighten it Up by repelling Blacks. Who don't like gays and gay culture that much.
ReplyDeleteYeah, sure, sign a lot of really thug-oriented great athletes from urban vibrant centers, and see great feats of athleticism for profit. But the fun stops when ratings fall and stadiums sit partially empty and crucially, cities and states tell owners to go F-themselves when it comes time for public financing. An ultra-Black game means very likely, a flight of SWPL to other stuff, and no leverage for owners getting what amounts to half a billion dollars in facilities on the public dime.
Of course this conflicts with the great Black hope of QBs. Black QBs are cheap and easy: Why pay Peyton Manning or Tom Brady $22 million a year over ten years when you can pay, oh Robert Griffin III $4 million a year for four years and replace him when he's physical wreck with the next Black QB? Given that athletic talent is a dime a dozen among Black athletes. And winning QB skill is pretty rare.
What if women play football?
ReplyDeleteOr should we be 'sexist' and insist it is a 'male-bonding' sport with homo-male implications?
But what if women call for female football? We female-bonding narcissistic women!!!
Will it be lesbian dominated?
Now, we have 'gay projection' onto everything popular and cool.
ReplyDeleteSo, figure skating is 'gay', football is 'gay', etc.
What is not 'gay'?
What is it with the NY WT's? Do they just dream about liberating every repressed soul by imagining that they are 'mo shaming them "out"? Do they, just like Kurt Cobain, wish they were gay?
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that interests me in football are the cheerleaders.
ReplyDeleteThe very nature of football, focused as it is on strength, virility, grace and manly bonding, has an obvious homoerotic component for those who play and for those who watch.
ReplyDeleteUsing that "logic", real heterosexual men watch womens figure skating and not football.
Now, we have 'gay projection' onto everything popular and cool.
ReplyDeleteSo, figure skating is 'gay', football is 'gay', etc.
What is not 'gay'?
The Sochi opening ceremonies are now gay too.
"Using that "logic", real heterosexual men watch womens figure skating and not football."
ReplyDeleteAnd speaking of skating, nobody likes hockey here? Real racist game, a bunch of white guys smacking a black thing around with sticks. But then again, I'm a bigot. But all my horrid, hateful joking aside, female figure skating is amazing for me to watch. I was always a goon on the ice...
It's an old meme. On an episode of TV's "Alice" (1970s), Flo said homosexuals fill the ranks of football teams because they are attracted by the opportunity to slap their teammates' fannies after a game. The episode featured a character who was a homosexual footballer.
ReplyDeleteIf only Cromartie were gay. At worst, he'd get GRIDS and cost us some money in meds. As it is, he's created (at last count) 12 future problems for society.
ReplyDelete"So, figure skating is 'gay', football is 'gay', etc. "
ReplyDeleteYep. Somehow, all the great male Russian figure skaters got married and had children.
Why?
1. In societies that condemn homosexuality and discourage discussion of it, it is liklier for males who are predisposed to homosexuality to just become normal people and engage in traditional relations.
2. In societies like Russia's where homosexuality is beyond the pale of discussion, heterosexuals have less of a need to demonstrate their heterosexuality. In America, most heterosexual boys would never take up figure skating because of the implication that it is homosexual. In Russia, there is no such association to begin with.
"In America, most heterosexual boys would never take up figure skating because of the implication that it is homosexual."
ReplyDeleteI sure as hell tried figure skating. What guy wouldn't want to hang around and skate with a bunch of athletic, attractive babes? No competition either. But like I said, I was always a goon on the ice. But I was a flight attendant for a few years. Heaven...
Anonymous:"Yep. Somehow, all the great male Russian figure skaters got married and had children.
ReplyDeleteWhy?
1. In societies that condemn homosexuality and discourage discussion of it, it is liklier for males who are predisposed to homosexuality to just become normal people and engage in traditional relations.
2. In societies like Russia's where homosexuality is beyond the pale of discussion, heterosexuals have less of a need to demonstrate their heterosexuality. In America, most heterosexual boys would never take up figure skating because of the implication that it is homosexual. In Russia, there is no such association to begin with."
Really?:
Rudolf Nureyev:
"Nureyev was bisexual/homosexual, Nureyev met Erik Bruhn [.....] Nureyev was a great admirer of Bruhn, having seen filmed performances of the Dane on tour in the Soviet Union with the American Ballet Theatre, although stylistically the two dancers were very different. Bruhn and Nureyev became a couple[25][28] and the two remained together off and on, with a very volatile relationship for 25 years, until Bruhn's death in 1986.[29]
Final years[edit]
When AIDS appeared in France's news around 1982, Nureyev took little notice. The dancer tested positive for HIV in 1984, but for several years he simply denied that anything was wrong with his health. Nureyev began a marked decline only in the summer of 1991 and entered the final phase of the disease in the spring of 1992." (WIKIPEDIA)
The episode featured a character who was a homosexual footballer.
ReplyDeleteThis was also true of 1970 episode of All in the Family. As you state, it was part of the Homosexual "Sales Job" by Liberal TV writers/ producers. Like Norman Lear.
Saw a few moments of an interview with Olympic figure skater Jason Brown earlier this week. Has anyone else seen this guy? Wears a ponytail and speaks like a 1980s valley girl. One of the most androgynous characters I have ever seen.
ReplyDeleteIf figure skating is the gayest sport, writing is the gayest profession. Every story in the Western media is given a gay-friendly slant because so many writers and editors are gay men. This has probably always been the case. Even 100 years ago, before homosexuality was openly discussed - eg Oscar Wilde, Somerset Maugham, E.M. Forster, Marcel Proust. Only theater and the Catholic priesthood come close.
More info on homosexuality and the Russian balletic tradition:
ReplyDeleteSergei Diaghilev, founder of the Ballet Russes
"Diaghilev was also homosexual, which by the early 20th century opened as many doors as it closed. In St Petersburg he had been a member of an artistically inclined gay clique who socialised together, swapped boyfriends and cruised for sex in the city's parks. Having come to terms with his sexuality at an early age, he made no attempt to pretend that his tastes lay elsewhere, and according to the composer Nicolas Nabokov, "he was perhaps the first grand homosexual who asserted himself and was accepted as such by society". By 1909 he had become the lover of the bisexual Nijinsky, who had been passed on to him by Prince Lvov, a gay St Petersburg dilettante." (THE GUARDIAN)
A big part of the homosexual assault on traditional values has been to pervert any notion of camaraderie and deep friendship between men.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, the latest scholarship suggests that poor Nijinsky, who married late in his short, unhappy life, was less homosexual himself than the victim of gay sexual harassment by Diaghilev.
ReplyDelete"""writing is the gayest profession.""""
ReplyDeleteYeah, then so is getting an education, learning how to read, write, math and science. ALL education is soooo gay, right? By that logic. Writing is part of an educated person, therefore all education is gay, by that logic.
If you could actually call it logic. And its doubtful at best and balderdash at worst.
"""""Even 100 years ago, before homosexuality was openly discussed - eg Oscar Wilde, Somerset Maugham, E.M. Forster, Marcel Proust.""""""
Don't forget those flaming gays like Dickens, Flaubert, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Twain, Hemingway, Faulkner, Huxley, Orwell, Dos Pasos, Steinbeck, Hunter S. Thompson, etc."
OOPS. Well, that doesnt work. Might want to rethink that.
Homosexuals: Just like you and me, except superior in every way.
ReplyDeleteSigned,
Your Betters
"OOPS. Well, that doesnt work. Might want to rethink that."
ReplyDeleteYou misunderstood what I wrote. I did not say ALL writers were gay, a patently absurd position.
But no one could seriously argue that gays (about 2% percent of the adult population) are not wildly overrepresented in media and journalism and this has not been the case for a long time.
Btw, you are actually correct that gays are overrepresented in science, technology and academia. Just "noticing things."
Don't forget those flaming gays like Dickens, Flaubert, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Twain, Hemingway, Faulkner, Huxley, Orwell, Dos Pasos, Steinbeck, Hunter S. Thompson, etc."
ReplyDeleteThe person who wrote this is not the brightest crayon in the box:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Flaubert#Personal_life
By the way, the latest scholarship suggests that poor Nijinsky, who married late in his short, unhappy life, was less homosexual himself than the victim of gay sexual harassment by Diaghilev.
ReplyDeleteHe was 60. That's kind of short, I guess.
Homosexuality is a lost art. Its last top-notch practitioner was the English writer and raconteur Quentin Crisp. One of the first of the flaming queens to go about in public wearing makeup and women's clothes, he took his beatings like a man, without complaint or recourse to the law. Now that deserves the respect of any fair-minded observer. The story of Crisp's life could in fact serve, to up-and-comers, as a much needed example of how to be, at one and the same time, a major-league poof and a real man.
ReplyDeleteWill have to side with the NYtimes over Steve on this one. Just because athletes and manly men don't have a homosexual identity and don't live primarily homosexual lives, that doesn't mean they don't engage in bisexual experimentation on the side, especially in their youth. They do, and probably at a rate higher than the average man. Blacks and Latinos especially by the way.
ReplyDelete"Oscar Wilde, Somerset Maugham, E.M. Forster, Marcel Proust."
ReplyDeleteYou could toss in Walt Whitman.
Problem is that every other great writer before WWII was a flaming heterosexual.
Its only after WWII that you get T. Williams, Vidal, Ginzberg, and Capote.
In the 60's they talked about the Universal Mind. Now,I'm afraid, we're confronted by the Universal Anus.
ReplyDelete"""Yeah, being educated makes one sound pompous and faggy to those that aren't.""""
ReplyDeleteRe-read Pygmalion.
But, yeah, its all those multi-syllables that are learned post 6th grade and blue collars don't know what to make of multi-syllables since their post 6th grade experience was mostly metal shop.
But don't worry, dude; that's what U. of Phoenix is there for.
"""Just because athletes and manly men don't have a homosexual identity and don't live primarily homosexual lives, that doesn't mean they don't engage in bisexual experimentation on the side, especially in their youth.""""
ReplyDeleteYeah, whatever. Now that sounds like an example of talking out of your backside, pardon the pun. It sounds like someone's confirming Steve's theory that many gay fantasies are of these mythical athletes who are secretly gay or bi at the very least.
""""They do"""
Nope. They don't. They really, really DONT.
If anything in the hood, they're busy working on their extra curricular activities. Ask yourself how did Antonio Cromartie father half a dozen kids by the time he was 20, huh? HUH????
He was workin' on it. Ever since he was about 15.
""""and probably at a rate higher than the average man. Blacks and Latinos especially by the way."""
Yeah, of course. Sure. Right. Ironically, those groups have higher rates of gay ostracism than among whites.
Which would relate to the theory that most gays (ca. 90-95% of the total) tend to be white.
"It's more fun for them to fantasize about all the homoerotic energy there must be in the team shower with Antonio Cromartie."
ReplyDeleteMaybe, but it's kind of weird you are so into wondering what gay guys are into. Not that there's anything wrong with that. (Unless you're Whiskey).
Its only after WWII that you get T. Williams, Vidal, Ginzberg, and Capote.
ReplyDeletePost WW2 heteros includes Ian Flemming; Asimov; (the other Science Fiction dude that Steve quotes a lot); Tom Clancy; Steven King; etc.
So the hetero delegation post WW2 is still amply represented after all.
"But, yeah, its all those multi-syllables that are learned post 6th grade and blue collars don't know what to make of multi-syllables since their post 6th grade experience was mostly metal shop.
ReplyDeleteBut don't worry, dude; that's what U. of Phoenix is there for."
Man, I have to say I'm disappointed in Steve's readers. That's two threads this week where I've dropped a reference to a particular movie and no one has picked up on it yet. It's a movie that Steve has often referenced.
"Problem is that every other great writer before WWII was a flaming heterosexual."
ReplyDeleteNot true at all. Other obvious names on the list from the early 20th century are Evelyn Waugh, Thomas Mann, and Samuel Butler. There are many others.
Gays and lesbians have tried to claim Balzac and Virginia Woolf but this appears to just be more propaganda.
The entire history of French literature is pretty gay.
A moron who commented earlier couldn't even come up with a list of a handful of straight novelists without inadvertently including a gay man.
I was being hyperbolic when I wrote that writing is the gayest profession. Fashion, dance, theater, and music all probably have a higher concentration of gay men than writing. Clergy is also pretty high up there, which is not surprising requires basically the same skill set as journalism or theater and therefore attracts people with the same set of personality traits (creativity, imagination, empathy, social skills) In other words, effeminate, low-T men.
Anyway, although gays are probably more overrepresented in creative writing than in journalism, they are still predominant enough at places like the NYT and CNN that most news goes through a pro-gay filter, which was my original point.
"""Other obvious names on the list from the early 20th century are Evelyn Waugh, Thomas Mann, and Samuel Butler. There are many others.""""
ReplyDeleteWaugh and Mann were straight. They were married and had children so it isn't obvious with those particular two.
"""""I was being hyperbolic when I wrote that writing is the gayest profession."""""""""
Didn't sound like it. Perhaps you should attend U. of Phoenix after all.
No, on second thought...maybe DeVry would be a better choice. And DeVry is pretty hetero at that.
""""Fashion, dance, theater, and music all probably have a higher concentration of gay men than writing.""""""""""
True that.
"""""Clergy is also pretty high up there, which is not surprising requires basically the same skill set as journalism or theater and therefore attracts people with the same set of personality traits (creativity, imagination, empathy, social skills) In other words, effeminate, low-T men.""""""""
Right, Hemingway didn't have any T and was a total fruit. Again, you might want to reconsider that.
Perhaps, as most gifted and talented writers write best on the subjects that they know, it would be better to speculate by subject before pronouncing that entire swaths of fiction authors are automatically in the G category.
""""""""Anyway, although gays are probably more overrepresented in creative writing than in journalism, they are still predominant enough at places like the NYT and CNN that most news goes through a pro-gay filter, which was my original point."""""
Yes, but that original point was definitely not made one iota. Not one iota.
Yes, on second thought, you should consider DeVry.
Dave Meggyesy wrote about gay NFLers doing gay stuff in the 60's in his 1973 book "Out of Their League" which I read a long, long time ago. Why does everyone act like dudes wanting easy sex without the possibility of getting someone pregnant is a new idea?
ReplyDeleteThere was a hideous classical music label called "Gay Classics" which claimed that every classical composer you ever heard of was homosexual.
ReplyDeleteThe label's series of recordings included not only known homosexual Tchaikovsky, but also other people such as Chopin - the latter on the grounds that "a Mr. George Sand was his passionate lover." (George Sand was actually the pen name of the excessively hetero lady novelist Aurore Dupin.)
The covers featured shining half-naked muscle boys lounging on pink satin sheets, presumably listening to JS Bach.
"Gore Vidal, Iconic American Author, Had Way More Sex Than You
ReplyDeleteFred Astaire, Rock Hudson, Jack Kerouac, and even Jacqueline Kennedy show up in a new “sexual biography” of writer Gore Vidal."
http://www.buzzfeed.com/timteeman/gore-vidal-iconic-american-author-had-way-more-sex-than-you
"Vidal also lived a full and swinging gay life. He was friends with novelist Christopher Isherwood and playwright Tennessee Williams. He had lots of sex, including with Jack Kerouac."
"Did Vidal have sex with any of Bowers’ other famous friends? “I fixed him up with my friend Tyrone Power, which Gore asked me for as a favor, and he did me a favor and had sex with him,” Bowers reveals. “Charles Laughton was not Gore’s type, but Gore went with me for kicks.” It was a three-way? “Yes, Charles was a dirty old man, but they wanted to meet each other. It was the same with Tyrone Power.” Bowers says, laughing, that he “probably introduced Gore to more famous people than he introduced me to.” He recalls Jacqueline Kennedy at one party going off to a bedroom with one man, her parting shot to Bowers, “I can’t fucking help myself.” Bowers says: “They always talk about her husband [JFK] fucking people, but she was a regular little tramp too. She’d fly out to Hollywood just to see William Holden.”"
"Bowers introduced Vidal to Rock Hudson; the men “hit it off” and they “buddy-buddied” together as friends too. “We had three-ways just when Rock was getting started as an actor,” says Bowers."
"Hudson, Power, Laughton, and Fred Astaire weren’t the only celebrities Vidal had sex with. The writer John Bowen says Vidal described once having sex with Noël Coward."
"Vidal told his nephew Burr Steers he had also successfully pursued and had sex with Fred Astaire when he first moved to Hollywood. “He also told me Dennis Hopper had a lovely tuft of hair above his ass. He never told me how he knew that.” Another close friend of the author revealed Vidal had asked, when hearing the friend was staying at the legendarily rock-starry, scandalous Chateau Marmont, “How is the Chateau?” He then added: “Brad Davis [star of Midnight Express and Querelle] was a beautiful boy..."
"Once, at the American Embassy in Rome, Vidal’s eye was caught by a young Marine. Marines had sex “for pin money,” Vidal told Epstein. Vidal told Epstein to wait for him. Epstein began reading a magazine article, when Vidal very suddenly appeared in front of him. “When is he coming?” Epstein asked Vidal of his hookup. “He’s been,” Vidal replied."
The allegations that Tyrone Power and Fred Astaire were closeted gays have been analyzed and refuted many times by reputable biographers. This crap belongs in the same league as Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt (he was a "Rough Rider after all) were gay. Hell maybe John Wayne was gay because he hired both Rock Hudson and Laurence Harvey to be in his movies?
ReplyDeleteThis Gore Vidal bio sounds like Z grade Kitty Kelly bilge.
A lot of gay males might fantasize about being effeminate skaters like Jason Brown or Johnny Weir, but not about being with them.
ReplyDeleteThere was a bit of controversy at the 2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics when some Canadian broadcasters wondered out loud about whether Johnny Weir sets a bad example and if there'd be more "straight flight" from male figure skating:
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/figure-skater-johnny-weir-lashes-back-broadcasters-suggests-sets-bad-article-1.171825#ixzz0jA8r3kKR
"The 25-year-old athlete was referring to observations made about his skating style and costumes by Claude Mailhot and Alain Goldberg of RDS, a French-language sports channel in Quebec.
"This may not be politically correct, but do you think he lost points due to his costume and his body language?" Mailhot said.
Goldberg responded that Weir's graceful mannerisms take the muscle out of male figure skating and damage the sport.
"They'll think all the boys who skate will end up like him," he said. "It sets a bad example."
The men suggested that Weir, a three-time U.S. national figure skating champ, should take a gender test — and that he should skate against women."
… popular gay sex fantasies about manly men…
ReplyDeleteIn her autobiography, celebrity model Janice Dickinson (happy birthday!) wrote of her only friend in high school in suburban Miami 40+ years ago. He was a gay guy who confided in her that paradoxically his type weren't at all attracted to his type. They wanted real men.
And this fellow got them. Every one of his relationships, brief as they were, was with a straight guy who needed a quick servicing, and didn't want to wait for a woman to come around, in both senses of the term.
2 things- not true football players are ore prone to experiment bisexuality. It's just not. Person who said this did not play game at any level.
ReplyDeleteBUT- blacks and Hispanics are more liable to get molested mainly due to fact they grow up in such chaos and predators are everywhere. This could lead to a higher proportion if blacks being on DL.
The allegations that Tyrone Power and Fred Astaire were closeted gays have been analyzed and refuted many times by reputable biographers. This crap belongs in the same league as Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt (he was a "Rough Rider after all) were gay. Hell maybe John Wayne was gay because he hired both Rock Hudson and Laurence Harvey to be in his movies?
ReplyDeleteThese are based on testimonies by Vidal and his close associates that "reputable biographers" didn't have access to.
In her autobiography, celebrity model Janice Dickinson (happy birthday!) wrote of her only friend in high school in suburban Miami 40+ years ago. He was a gay guy who confided in her that paradoxically his type weren't at all attracted to his type. They wanted real men.
ReplyDeleteWhat about "chickenhawks"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_%28gay_slang%29
I don't follow football closely so do not know the NFL player who died of AIDS. Lyle Alzado? Or has this already been covered by a comment in moderation limbo?
ReplyDeleteGiven his bio
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Dawidoff
I would say Dawidoff is very likely gay himself, and became obsessed with baseball due to repressed homosexual longings. He is just projecting his own obsessions on other men. He cannot understand that other guys look at football as a violently strategic game of subjugation. He sees Daddy figures in spandex.
This is sad, but I call bullshit.
Also, I never trust any man who has spent a year in Thailand.
The vast majority of British letters from late 19th century to Angry Young Men were either flamers or closet cases. Oscar Wilde was only doing in public was everyone else was doing in private.
ReplyDeleteDeal with it.
Dave Meggyesy wrote about gay NFLers doing gay stuff in the 60's in his 1973 book "Out of Their League" which I read a long, long time ago. Why does everyone act like dudes wanting easy sex without the possibility of getting someone pregnant is a new idea?
ReplyDeleteThe reason is that we are men whose mind such a notion never crossed.
"""""""The allegations that Tyrone Power and Fred Astaire were closeted gays have been analyzed and refuted many times by reputable biographers.""""""
ReplyDeleteAgreed. In the case of Astaire, who had TWO CHILDREN, and BOTH are very VERY much alive.
Dont you think, THINK for one moment, that IF these cases were true that his OWN CHILDREN would KNOW for a FACT whether this was indeed the case????? Answer: Yes.
How well did Gore Vidal personally know Power and particularly Astaire? Answer: Not at all. Tyrone Power was married 4 times and had a child posthumously. Come on!
""""These are based on testimonies by Vidal and his close associates that "reputable biographers" didn't have access to.""""""
In other words, its total bullshit and Gore Vidal once again made shit up to fit his overall agenda. It's well known for instance that Gore Vidal himself was gay. He had an agenda. Namely, 'hey, you middle class rubes out there who look up to all your celluloid heroes....the "fact" is, that many of them if not all, were gay! And only I have the total and absolute proof!"
Just ask yourself: What concrete proof would such a person with an agenda as well to promote have access to that alllll the other biographers, many many of them who spent actual time with their subjects and or had total access to all their private papers, correspondence, etc.???? Answer: zip, nothin.
Bottom line: The gays have never fully gotten over the FACT that the vassst majority of Alisters during classic hollywood were straight. They've never gotten over it and prefer to project their secret fantasies onto the past.
Gary Cooper? A flamer
Jimmy Stewart? Of course! And he was good "friends" with Cooper, so....there you go!
Bogart? Tracy? Of course!
Clark Gable? Hell, he didnt give a damn about Scarlett O'Hara, what more proof do you need???
Again, Gore Vidal isnt' known for being the most reliable biographer or writer for that matter. IF he could, he probably would've written that William F Buckley and he got it on somewhere in NY!
WHERE....is the proof? The real concrete absolute proof? It doesn't exist! Anyone can write anything about a public person once they're dead and oftentimes stuff gets made up. Like in this case.
Irony: The ones that we DO know that were gay back in classic hollywood are not exactly the ones that today's gays want to publicly admire and emulate.
They don't like it, so they should simply go lump it.
"Dave Meggyesy wrote about gay NFLers doing gay stuff in the 60's in his 1973 book "Out of Their League" which I read a long, long time ago. Why does everyone act like dudes wanting easy sex without the possibility of getting someone pregnant is a new idea?"
ReplyDeleteWhoever wrote this paragraph has to be 100% gay. That last sentence is a giveaway, because it betrays a complete lack of understanding of how the heterosexual male mind works.
Agenda? Had the recorder programmed to begin recording 10 minutes before the Olympics began; a soap opera was just ending prior to start of the events.
ReplyDeleteShocked to see two (apparently) naked young men in bed as entertainment for their viewers. The mens skating portion of the Olympics was like a "Drag Queens On Ice" Ice Follies. So to find a tv show without WWG, turned to "Treehouse Masters", which of course has a crew building tree houses for the well to do. Not surprisingly at this point, the episode featured a gay married couple having a treehouse built in Seattle.
America in freefall.
Agreed. In the case of Astaire, who had TWO CHILDREN, and BOTH are very VERY much alive.
ReplyDeleteDont you think, THINK for one moment, that IF these cases were true that his OWN CHILDREN would KNOW for a FACT whether this was indeed the case????? Answer: Yes.
How well did Gore Vidal personally know Power and particularly Astaire? Answer: Not at all. Tyrone Power was married 4 times and had a child posthumously. Come on!
Being married and having kids doesn't mean anything of course with respect to what we're talking about here. Especially in the past.
I don't think Vidal claimed to them know well personally. He knew them carnally.
In other words, its total bullshit and Gore Vidal once again made shit up to fit his overall agenda. It's well known for instance that Gore Vidal himself was gay. He had an agenda. Namely, 'hey, you middle class rubes out there who look up to all your celluloid heroes....the "fact" is, that many of them if not all, were gay! And only I have the total and absolute proof!"
Actually Vidal himself didn't have this kind of agenda. In fact quite the opposite. He abhorred this kind of identity politics and didn't parade it in public.
Just ask yourself: What concrete proof would such a person with an agenda as well to promote have access to that alllll the other biographers, many many of them who spent actual time with their subjects and or had total access to all their private papers, correspondence, etc.???? Answer: zip, nothin.
Vidal didn't have such an agenda. And flamers are notorious for the kind of anonymous and semi-anonymous brief encounters Vidal recounts, not for leaving paper trails everywhere, especially in the past.
WHERE....is the proof? The real concrete absolute proof? It doesn't exist! Anyone can write anything about a public person once they're dead and oftentimes stuff gets made up. Like in this case.
Proof doesn't even exist in science. There's only proof in math. If you want proof, go do some math.
What about "chickenhawks"? --anon
ReplyDeleteCorrect me if I'm wrong, but I've always assumed pederasts were tops, thus in a different category than Janice's sob sister and his ilk.
""""Actually Vidal himself didn't have this kind of agenda."""""
ReplyDeleteNow that's a lie. His politics were strong left wing and he most definitely had an agenda regarding the gay movement. Granted, the movement as conceived in the late 60s was different then than in its current form, but the result is the same.
AGAIN. WHY...do should we automatically "take his word" which is unverified at that, against the words of other reputable biographers who have covered their subjects as well as had access to their private papers? In the field of history, accuracy is one of the highest virtues and is to be constantly strived for.
Also, in the case of Astaire, there are two living witnesses who knew him well, quite well in fact. His Children. If this were sooooo "widely known" then it can be easily corroborated by his kids.
Aside but relevant: Notice, it is in this field of gaydarness that is verrrryyy tenuous. In point of fact it not only was known who was quite hetero/straight during the classic age of hollywood but there are reputable eye witnesses and/or verified people who can corroborate the various details.
The stories that generally linger regarding a person during their lifetimes (e.g. Liberache; Rudolf Nerevyev; etc) generally have proven to be accurate over time. The fact that next to nothing was ever stated regarding Tyrone Power and Fred Astaire (of all people!) Again and again, where is the actual proof? Answer: There isnt any because it doesnt exist and therefore is not true.
""""Vidal didn't have such an agenda."""""""
Bullshit. But again, to take HIS word for it when there is no credible evidence, no credible proof?
"""""""""And flamers are notorious for the kind of anonymous and semi-anonymous brief encounters Vidal recounts, not for leaving paper trails everywhere, especially in the past.""""""
This is subjective conjecture and not verifiable proof. If such was soooo widely known and a point of actual fact then it should be easily verifiable. After all, we know that Power was a notorious womanizer and had numerous affairs (with women of course) and a child was born to last wife after his death, DNA confirmed it. If anything, this is concrete evidence that Power was in fact straight.
Astaire had a lengthy first marriage and dated several women including Barrie Chaise (still alive by the way) and married a second time to a younger woman (who is also still alive and can verify things about her husband as she knew him quite well)
In the case of Astaire it is interesting to note that these types of scandalous rumors and innuendoes did not occur until AFTER his death and quite recently at that. You just dont find these types of ugliness written about him during his life time.
""""Proof doesn't even exist in science.""""""
No, its by consensus that proof is obtained. In a court of law, there must credible established and verifiable evidence. Also known as reliable testimony. This would include direct written evidence an/or primary first hand witnesses.
Having a child certainly does not help strengthen the case that Astaire and Power were exclusively gay. Otherwise, just as Vidal's baseless accusations vs people long since dead, it borders on conspiratorial. (e.g. the fact that there's a lack of evidence automatically means that they're gay)
In both of their cases this happens to be a pinkish wet dream and it would do best not to further indulge in it, especially without verifiable evidence known as proof.
But as for Liberache? They can have him. And in his case, there's abundance and tons of proof.
That last sentence is a giveaway, because it betrays a complete lack of understanding of how the heterosexual male mind works.
ReplyDeleteNo kidding. It's funny how they insist that homosexuality is completely innate and can't possibly be altered or overcome, yet they also like to think that straight men might just get bored of an afternoon and decide to bugger each other.
Being married and having kids doesn't mean anything of course with respect to what we're talking about here.
ReplyDeleteThat's a lie. Of course it means something. No, marriage and kids aren't absolute proof that a man is heterosexual, but to claim that they aren't evidence of it is just silly. The assumption should be that a husband and father is straight unless there is very good reason to think otherwise.
"Dave Meggyesy wrote about gay NFLers doing gay stuff in the 60's in his 1973 book "Out of Their League" which I read a long, long time ago. Why does everyone act like dudes wanting easy sex without the possibility of getting someone pregnant is a new idea?"
ReplyDeleteIt happened in the premodern navy and in prisons where men had no choice. Straight guys will not go for men unless there is absolutely no other option--we're visual creatures and men aren't visually attractive to us. Even in cases where no woman is available a lot of guys will sit and masturbate all day rather than switch sides--look at computer geeks, they'll make unrealistically cute women in video games, but you never see them fantasizing about men (or each other!).
I was under the impression that homosexuality rates from highest to lowest were:
ReplyDeleteblack, hispanic, white, eastasian
So shouldn't there be more gay black athletes or do gay blacks not pursue professional sports at the same rate? I believe the first active, gay NBA player just came out last year, and there are very known few NFL gays.
id much rather circumcize myself with stray glass shards in a dirty alley than share a bed with a woman. but thats no reason for any of you 2b afraid to share a bed with me
ReplyDeleteLol at naivete in this thread. You don't need to identify as gay to experiment with other guys or get a blowjob. In most of the world getting a blowjob from another guy isn't even considered gay. It's the same in the "black community." If you don't think that black and Latin alphas aren't occasionally getting off with other guys you're very naive.
ReplyDeleteSame is true for white guys but less frequent.
RE: Gore Vidal and homosexuality,
ReplyDeleteAn interesting aspect of Vidal's homosexuality was how "Classical" it was. He liked to boast about how he was the one who did the penetrating (cf his account of his night with Jack Kerouac)and deprecated kissing as "girly." For that matter, Vidal even had a preference for the Athenian practise of femoral intercourse, chaste rubbing between the thighs (cf Vidal's novel HOLLYWOOD, where a wealthy American man pays a French soldier for sex; there's no kissing, and the sex involves rubbing bodies together).
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteProof doesn't even exist in science."
Evidence does exist in science. And you seem completely unconcerned with evidence.
…cf his account of his night with Jack Kerouac…
ReplyDeleteKerouac?!
Angie Dickinson claims she's never knowingly gone to bed with a Republican. And here's Gore Vidal bragging about it.
Still, I refuse to believe it till I hear it from Jack himself.
Pardon the pun, Steve, but unfortunately with these kinds of posts you do appear to leave yourself open to various charges.
ReplyDeleteSuch as, uh, exactly WHY has a simple post immediately degenerated into salaciousness?
And also, exactly what does any of these types of posts and responds have to do with the more relevant topics of IQ and HBD to be more exact to the point.
Would Derbyshire himself engage in these types of posts? Would appear to be unlikely.
But be that as it may....
""""""So shouldn't there be more gay black athletes or do gay blacks not pursue professional sports at the same rate?"""""""
ReplyDeleteOh, goodness gracious! Are you implying that NFLer Richard Sherman is gay?
Its bad enough that during Super Bowl week various posters here intimated that Sherman could possibly be JEWISH, but now to presume that he might also be gay as well!
Goodness Gracious. Some people just refuse to accept the facts that are staring them in the face.
Re: Richard Sherman: Special Admit to Stanford, absolutely. Jewish and Gay, no sirree way!
Reg Caesar:"Kerouac?!
ReplyDeleteAngie Dickinson claims she's never knowingly gone to bed with a Republican. And here's Gore Vidal bragging about it.
Still, I refuse to believe it till I hear it from Jack himself."
Kerouac apparently described the encounter in his novel The Subterraneans (the "He" is Vidal) :
"In the novel, Kerouac wrote of the Vidal encounter, “[He] is a well-known and perfectly obvious homosexual of the first water, my roaring brain---we go to his suite in some hotel--I wake up in the morning on the couch, filled with the horrible recognition, ‘I didn’t go back to Mardou’s at all.’” (http://lastbohemians.blogspot.com/2011/08/jack-kerouac-and-gore-vidal-hook-up-in.html)
Now that's a lie. His politics were strong left wing and he most definitely had an agenda regarding the gay movement. Granted, the movement as conceived in the late 60s was different then than in its current form, but the result is the same.
ReplyDeleteHe was left wing, but he was unorthodox in his views and held certain conservative, populist views. He wasn't supportive of the "gay movement" and identity politics in general.
Also, in the case of Astaire, there are two living witnesses who knew him well, quite well in fact. His Children. If this were sooooo "widely known" then it can be easily corroborated by his kids.
Why do you suppose that his kids would have been witnesses to his intimate encounters with other people?
No, its by consensus that proof is obtained. In a court of law, there must credible established and verifiable evidence. Also known as reliable testimony. This would include direct written evidence an/or primary first hand witnesses.
No, consensus is not proof. And there are primary first hand witnesses here.
But as for Liberache? They can have him. And in his case, there's abundance and tons of proof.
And there many old lady fans of Liberace who were so naive that they had no inkling that he was gay.
>>>>Why do you suppose that his kids would have been witnesses to his intimate encounters with other people?
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no, you're missing it. His Children were very very close to him and would certainly whom he dated and encountered in his life.
Besides, things such as that leave a trail and in Astaires case there isn't any.
Again, why do you automatically assume that people who not necessarily credible witnesses are automatically credible regarding decades long after the (alleged) "facts"?
Where is the proof? Answer: There isn't any.
""""No, its by consensus that proof is obtained.""""
And in Astaire's case there simply ISNT ANY.
Thank you!
This sounds like an example of someone who has an agenda to retroactively "Yup, he's gay, he's gay, and he's gay" type of person. An agenda for all to see and observe.
""""No, consensus is not proof.""""""
In a court of law, Yes it is.
"""""And there are primary first hand witnesses here."""""
Lie. Name the person. And then...go ask his children who are still very much alive. Remember they're his biological children so this nonsensical idea that he was a flaming gay loses weight. Also, ask Barrie Chase whom he was in an exclusive relationship for several years. She is very much alive. So ask her as well. Go ahead.
And then when you don't receive the answer that you're expecting be sure to call her a liar since she couldnt possibly know for certain regarding someone she was intimately involved with for several yrs. Couldn't possibly know. Go ahead.
Go ahead. Ask her.
""""And there many old lady fans of Liberace who were so naive that they had no inkling that he was gay."""""""
Sounds as if this person does not want Liberace. How about Richard Simmons then? You can have Richie, lord knows he probably has.
Pardon the pun, Steve, but unfortunately with these kinds of posts you do appear to leave yourself open to various charges.
ReplyDeleteSuch as, uh, exactly WHY has a simple post immediately degenerated into salaciousness?
And also, exactly what does any of these types of posts and responds have to do with the more relevant topics of IQ and HBD to be more exact to the point.
Would Derbyshire himself engage in these types of posts?
Another one trying to control the discourse...
No kidding. It's funny how they insist that homosexuality is completely innate and can't possibly be altered or overcome, yet they also like to think that straight men might just get bored of an afternoon and decide to bugger each other.
ReplyDeleteVery incisive. Nicely done.
No, no, no, you're missing it. His Children were very very close to him and would certainly whom he dated and encountered in his life.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure they were. But I doubt they were witnesses to his most intimate encounters with other people.
Where is the proof? Answer: There isn't any.
There's plenty of evidence. You just wish to ignore it.
In a court of law, Yes it is.
Liberace successfully sued the Daily Mirror for libel for implying that he was gay.
Lie. Name the person. And then...go ask his children who are still very much alive. Remember they're his biological children so this nonsensical idea that he was a flaming gay loses weight. Also, ask Barrie Chase whom he was in an exclusive relationship for several years. She is very much alive. So ask her as well. Go ahead.
I don't think his children or Chase were witnesses or participants in these intimate encounters.
It's funny how they insist that homosexuality is completely innate and can't possibly be altered or overcome, yet they also like to think that straight men might just get bored of an afternoon and decide to bugger each other.
ReplyDeleteThey are ONLY half-right. Straight men sometimes do get into a buggering mood, but never due to boredom. It's a matter of sexual frustration (not the same as boredom) mixed with power and social dominance. Think prisons, ships, army bases and camps, all-boy schools, etc. Actual homosexuals would be wise to avoid manly he-men in such places, unless they envision being the passive partners.