February 25, 2014

Violent overthrow of elected government = "Democracy"

From the NYT:
Wary Stance From Obama on Ukraine 
By PETER BAKER    FEB. 24, 2014

WASHINGTON — Televisions around the White House were aglow with pictures of Ukrainians in the streets, demanding to be heard and toppling a government aligned with Russia. It was an invigorating moment, and it spurred a president already rethinking his approach to the world. 
That was a different decade and a different president. While George W. Bush was inspired by the Orange Revolution of 2004 and weeks later vowed in his second inaugural address to promote democracy, Barack Obama has approached the revolution of 2014 with a more clinical detachment aimed at avoiding instability. 
Rather than an opportunity to spread freedom in a part of the world long plagued by corruption and oppression, Mr. Obama sees Ukraine’s crisis as a problem to be managed, ideally with a minimum of violence or geopolitical upheaval. While certainly sympathetic to the pro-Western protesters who pushed out President Viktor F. Yanukovych and hopeful that they can establish a representatively elected government, Mr. Obama has not made global aspirations of democracy the animating force of his presidency. ...
“These democratic movements will be more sustainable if they are seen as not an extension of America or any other country, but coming from within these societies,” said Benjamin J. Rhodes, a deputy national security adviser. ... 
To some critics, though, that justifies a policy of passivity that undercuts core American values. 
“The administration’s Ukraine policy is emblematic of a broader problem with today’s foreign policy — absence of a strategic vision, disinterest [sic] in democracy promotion and an unwillingness to lead,” said Paula J. Dobriansky, an under secretary of state for Mr. Bush. 
Mr. Obama’s commitment to democracy promotion has long been debated. 
Advocates say he has increased spending on projects that encourage democratic reform in places like Africa and Asia while directing money to support changes in the Arab world. At the same time, they said, he has cut back on democracy promotion in Iraq, Pakistan and Central Asia. 
One of the strongest advocates for democracy promotion in Mr. Obama’s circle has been Michael A. McFaul, first the president’s Russia adviser and then ambassador to Moscow. But Mr. McFaul is stepping down. Mr. Obama’s nominee for the assistant secretary of state who oversees democracy programs, Tom Malinowski, has been languishing since July waiting for Senate confirmation. 
For Mr. Bush, the focus on spreading democracy preceded his decision to invade Iraq, but it was inextricably linked to the war after the failure to find the unconventional weapons that had been the primary public justification. The goal of establishing a democratic beachhead in the Middle East began driving the occupation, but it became tarnished among many overseas because of its association with the war. 
... In January 2005, Mr. Bush declared it his policy to support democracy “in every nation” with “the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world.” 
For a time, Ukraine was a model. The newly elected president, Viktor A. Yushchenko, was welcomed at the White House and addressed a joint session of Congress. “It was the poster child for ‘democracy can work, we’re on a roll,’ ” said Steven Pifer, a former ambassador to Ukraine now at the Brookings Institution. 
Yet like other places, the heady days in Kiev eventually gave way to political paralysis and retrenchment. Mr. Yushchenko failed to consolidate support and ultimately was replaced by his nemesis, Mr. Yanukovych, in a democratic election.

Wait a minuite ... The tyrant who was just driven out in a violent coup was democratically elected? That's confusing.
The unresolved debate over whether Ukraine should be more tied to Europe or Russia led back to a similar showdown over the past weeks and months, this time more violent, with more than 80 killed. 

So, all those masked men with clubs weren't protesting for democracy but for whose team Ukraine would be on?
... On the ground has been Victoria Nuland, an assistant secretary of state who previously worked for Mr. Bush’s administration and is passionate about anchoring Ukraine in the West. A leaked recording of a conversation she had during the height of the events showed her discussing ways to bring the opposition into the government.

That's putting it mildly.
Mr. Obama waited until last week, three months into the crisis, to make his first statement in front of cameras. Aides said he wanted to wait until the critical moment, and it came when Americans saw indications that Mr. Yanukovych might turn loose the military on the protesters. ... 
Critics saw that as too little, too late. “Regrettably, the West viewed the situation as a crisis that needed to be tamped down rather than an opportunity for positive change,” said David Kramer, a former Bush administration official now serving as president of Freedom House, a nonprofit group that advocates democracy around the world. 
Others said caution might be justified. “It doesn’t seem to me that the Obama administration is so invested in that democracy theme,” said Mr. Pifer, but that “may not be a bad thing.” ...

You can see the pressures on an unenergetic President exerted by the deep state, which is primarily concerned, like Charlie Sheen, with Winning. And "democracy" is just a club (literally, in the case of last week's coup).
   

35 comments:

  1. Democracy means rule by the people.

    It doesn't specify which people.

    The US government thinks the relevant people in every case are the American people - not the actual people in America, but the abstraction named "the American people," by which sign they rule.

    "The American People" (TAP) are in favor of transexualism, racial quotas, open borders, the elimination of the minimum wage, and violent overthrows of elected governments that get in the way of the oil interests. TAP, in brief, is for everything the neocon deep state is for. It even might be said that the neocon deep state is "the American people."

    Democracy in any other definition is merely nationalism or even fascism.

    Le peuple, c'est moi, says the king.

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  2. Arnold Willis2/25/14, 3:31 PM

    The focus on Iraq after 9/11 was meant to distract us from the realization that what we needed was secure borders and a sane immigration policy.

    Likewise with Ukraine, the talk of promoting "democracy" is designed to distract us from what this is really about: the fact that elected leaders around the globe - even in the West - are busy betraying their people for the sake of money and power.

    Yanukovych isn't all that much different from Clinton, Bush, Blair, or Obama. What we need is not so much more democracy, but more ways to hold leaders accountable.

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  3. """Mr. Obama waited until last week, three months into the crisis, to make his first statement in front of cameras. Aides said he wanted to wait until the critical moment""""

    Well, he'd have made the statement sooner, but this month had the Super Bowl, Black History Month, Sochi Games, and of course the ever all important early filling out the NCAA Brackets.

    Geez there were just so many important things things this month.

    We tend to forget that just a few days from now March Madness will once again be upon us, and the familiar faces like the Bruins and Tarheels may not be locked shoe ins this yr.

    Hence the additional needed time for early bracket filling.

    Besides, he's made his speech and when it counted the most. The good guys won for now, right?

    Right? Yay team, go Democracy. Hooray for our side. Shame the big showdown in Kiev didn't happen next wk or he could've made a March Madness analogy tie-in.

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  4. http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.es/2014/02/will-nato-annex-ukraine.html?m=1

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  5. >>>David attempted to be witty, mentioned:
    """Democracy means rule by the people.

    It doesn't specify which people.""""

    David, David, David. You do know that the US is NOT a Democracy but a Representative Republic, right? You know, it's by proxy. The elected sort of people do the governing etc. you are aware of that?

    Good. Almost wasn't sure since it wasn't fully clear that you were.


    """Democracy in any other definition is merely nationalism or even fascism."""""

    Again, this is NOT a democracy and never has claimed to be.

    Oh, in any other definition, that fascism comment, as in the OWS movement. Thank you.

    You have a good day.

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  6. Ukraine, like most conflicts we hear about, is about oil pipelines and countering Russia's desire to monopolize oil supply to Europe. Democracy, gay rights, or whatever else we hear about Russia is just propaganda to demean them, so we can build the moral high ground. Follow the money, stupid. It's oil.

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  7. I admit to supporting the guys in the street, even though they were facing off against an elected government. I just like mayhem. That does not change the fact that the guys in the street were not there because of ballot reform. They were there for tribal reasons and democracy had nothing to do with it.

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  8. "Follow the money, stupid. It's oil."

    I don't believe that for a second. And the Iraq War wasn't about oil either. Follow the tribalism. All politics is ethnic.

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  9. France has had 5 republics, 2, maybe 3 overthrown by the people.

    Oh heck the democratically elected United States government was almost overthrown by a revolt of the people who lost the 1860 election.

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  10. So what's up with the NYT et al not noticing that the Ukraine is 99.9% white? Isn't it racist to have a country be so white? Shouldn't the next logical step for Ukrainian democracy be to import hordes of Somalians (even as Ukraine's Gypsies slither away to Sweden) to reap the benefits of diverse diversity?

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  11. Ukraine, like most conflicts we hear about, is about oil pipelines

    Is that anything to do with the Afghan gas pipeline that we wanted built to make millions for Bush and his cronies? So we invaded in 2001.

    And here we are 13 years later and not one inch of pipeline has been constructed.

    Ill say one thing for GWB, he certainly takes a long view.

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  12. Yanukovych isn't all that much different from Clinton, Bush, Blair, or Obama. What we need is not so much more democracy, but more ways to hold leaders accountable.

    Please, let's end this pernicious "leaders" nonsense and call a spade a spade. These people are properly known as "rulers", and deserve no prettified, equalitarian euphemism to disguise that.

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  13. Arnold Willis2/25/14, 6:26 PM

    "Oh heck the democratically elected United States government was almost overthrown by a revolt of the people who lost the 1860 election."

    They didn't try to overthrow the government, jackass, except as it related to themselves.

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  14. A little thing involving the mass murder if 3,000 Americans and the Talibans refusal to hand over those who planned it was the reason for the invasion of Afghanistan.

    How soon they were forgotten.

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  15. "Anonymous said...

    Please, let's end this pernicious "leaders" nonsense and call a spade a spade."

    Yes, I agree. In an actual republic there are no "leaders" - it is not the job of elected officials to lead a free people. And even in a fake republic of the kind we have, the term leader implies some kind of consent. Rulers is what they are.

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  16. I must have missed that part where Wilson said, "We must make the world safe for representative republicanism."

    Seriously, while no one believes that the US is an Athenian democracy, and the Federalist Papers explain why republican government is best, almost the only people now - and for the past 100 years - saying "we are not a democracy, we are a republic" are well-meaning conservative college students who treat this old chestnut as a bombshell revelation, and National Review c 1964. The reason is that it's true, but otiose. Our rulers, whether Bush-ers or Obamanians, Demopublians or Republicrats, have long since adopted "Democracy!" as their battle cry in their ungodly crusade to invite and invade the world. Bush called "Democracy!" a "fire in the mind," like the effect of a fifth of rye. (Or - vodka?)

    The hypocrisy of extolling "democracy" while supporting the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government is all that's being noted here. Certainly, this hypocrisy would remain were fedgov doing this in the name of the republican form of government, too.

    The only purple thumbs that count are those raised in favor of Halliburton.

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  17. >>David, thought he was being clever, stated:
    """"I must have missed that part where Wilson said, "We must make the world safe for representative republicanism."


    Again, the question: IS the US a democracy. Answer: Not at all. And also, is WIlson the be all and end all of 21st cent. executive power? The history books state that he passed away in 1924, so what's your point at large? Or, that's right, there isn't any. Not surprised.

    But do continue.


    """Seriously, while no one believes that the US is an Athenian democracy,"""""

    Try and tell that to the OWS Fascists ER...I mean the people's liberating protesters, because they were under the delusion that the US is indeed a democracy a la "one people, one vote" sort of thing.

    Go ahead and finish, though, on your rabbit trail.


    """"almost the only people now - and for the past 100 years - saying "we are not a democracy, we are a republic"""""""

    Well, again, sometimes people didn't actually bother to learn the accurate history of their nation and thus need a refresher course in the classroom called life. Perhaps once again in this early on century some folks will this time bother to remember that NO, we are NOT a full fledged democracy and never have been.

    Otherwise, if this delusion persists, some people might attempt to organize riots, demonstrations, etc along the line of "one person, one vote" and their demands must be recognized since they have sooo much of importance to say.


    """"Demopublians or Republicrats, have long since adopted "Democracy!" as their battle cry in their ungodly crusade to invite and invade the world.""""



    It'scalled dumbing down the narrative, David. Sooooo glad that you did not stoop down to take their bait.







    """"The hypocrisy of extolling "democracy" while supporting the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government is all that's being noted here.""""


    ZZZZZ. Oh. You still rabbiting on and on and on and on and on and on and....zzzzz.

    Come on, old sport, finish up, double quick!!





    """"The only purple thumbs that count are those raised in favor of Halliburton."""""


    Or raised in favor of OWS. Or Axelrod. Or BO in chief. Although he'll be a bit busy this wk as he's filling out his early brackets for NCAA Tourney, doncha know.

    My, you did say quite a mouthful, there David.

    You're not the one who was insisting about Richard Sherman being gay or Jewish or a certified genius last week? Or was it indeed you?

    Anyway, lord help us all if we ever did become a democracy along lines of one vote per...that would include all. And all means all.

    But yay democracy, actually the accurate rallying cry would best be 'Yay, the Republic'. And since US supported France during their 1st Republic, the analogy isn't so far off either.

    But that does remind me, I think tomorrow should probably start on the brackets. It is a major to do this time of yr.

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  18. Too easy a target, Steve.

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  19. WHISKY SAID ...

    "A little thing involving the murder [of] if 3,000 Americans and the Talibans refusal to hand over those who planned it was the reason for the invasion of Afghanistan."

    "How soon they were forgotten".


    Not true.

    The Taliban did NOT refuse to hand anyone over. They simply asked the U.S. government to provide some proof or evidence that Bin Laden was responsible. The Bush administration refused. They then offered to turn him over to an international court or tribunal. Or to turn him over to a third country. This was also rejected.

    Btw, The Taliban would probably not come to power in the first place without support from the USA.

    Mind telling me what the reason was for the invasion of Iraq since no "weapons of mass destruction" were ever found?

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  20. The NYT has been reduced to typists

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  21. The NYT has been reduced to typists --Clutch Cargo Cult

    …who, given time, will produce the entire works of Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxenford.

    (Who is not to be confused with that "200% hetero" fellow who wrote vastly better stuff.)

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  22. تم حفظ تعليقاتك وستكون معروضة بعد موافقة مالك المدونة الإلكترونية.
    "Your comments have been saved and will be shown after the approval of the owner of the blog."
    [sic] --Google Translate app
    (Note
    right-
    justification)

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  23. Mr. Obama’s commitment to democracy promotion has long been debated.

    Yes. Why just the other nite, me and a few friends stayed up late - past midnite! - talking 'at length' about this over a few glasses of good red wine (eschewing a real debate format - it was an informal debate, one could say). We couldn't seem to reach a consensus.

    However none of us doubted his commitment to golf.

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  24. Simon in London2/26/14, 1:05 AM

    Passive Obama, crazy-bad Bushites. It just makes Obama look better all the time. I almost regret that my US-citizen wife never voted for him - as a feminist, she disliked him for beating Hillary Clinton to the nomination in a fairly dirty campaign.
    Hillary Clinton has some blood on her hands from Kosovo '98, but nothing like the Bushites. If she's nominated against some neocon stooge I'll be happy to see my wife vote for her in 2016.

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  25. "It doesn’t seem to me that the Obama administration is so invested in that democracy theme,”

    Thank God for that!

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  26. anonymous - "Mind telling me what the reason was for the invasion of Iraq since no "weapons of mass destruction" were ever found?"

    My pet theory: Bush was blackmailed by the Saudis not to go after them.

    I wonder if it will ever be documented.

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  27. "Anonymous said...

    """"almost the only people now - and for the past 100 years - saying "we are not a democracy, we are a republic"""""""

    Well, again, sometimes people didn't actually bother to learn the accurate history of their nation and thus need a refresher course in the classroom called life. Perhaps once again in this early on century some folks will this time bother to remember that NO, we are NOT a full fledged democracy and never have been."

    No, David is right. While - yes - this nation was founded as a republic, it has customarily been referred to as a democracy for nearly a hundred years. I don't like it, nor probably does David, but there it is. And, of course, we are actually now neither a republic nor a democracy.

    And, by the way, why do you use so many damn quotation marks when quoting someone elses post? One pair suffices. Putting in all those quotation marks makes you look like an idiot - I mean more so than the drivel you routinely spout, since you showed up here.

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  28. Ukraine was largely about bad monetary policy (currency way too strong) and strangulation of grass-roots growth due to WAY too much corruption. Even the corruption became corrupt, as Yanukovych froze out the other oligarchs and took more and more of the loot for himself. Plus he eunuch-ed the parliament after getting elected to reduce that check on his power. So, you know, he did have it coming to him.

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  29. Georgians got their asses kicked even by the Abkhaz and a few volunteers from the North Caucasus, no rational person could have thought they had any chance against Russia.

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  30. "You keep using that word ['democracy']. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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  31. …she disliked him for beating Hillary Clinton to the nomination in a fairly dirty campaign.is the only service this man has done for his mother's land.

    Then he sent her abroad for three years, which doesn't make up for Eric Holder, but was refreshing nonetheless. (And finally restored a second US Senator to New York.)

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  32. Fools pining for a Hilary presidency ought to read the WPost opinion piece by former clinton foreign policy advisor Sandy Berger. An op-ed by Samuel R. Berger demanded that "The US must take action to deal with al-Qaeda in Syria."

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  33. This is why I don't understand why you mocked libertarians for not being the kind of people at the Maidan. Most of the time the shooting and beating people isn't in service of the citizenry to begin with! Just about who gets to rule them.

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  34. Mr. Anon said...
    """""No, David is right."""""

    Nope, he's not.


    """""While - yes - this nation was founded as a republic, it has customarily been referred to as a democracy for nearly a hundred years.""""

    And to the REPUBLIC for which it stands--written in 1892.


    ""I don't like it, nor probably does David, but there it is."""

    Where? Where is it?


    """And, of course, we are actually now neither a republic nor a democracy.""""

    People deserve whatever government they get. Since we didnt do much to change it for decades, well, that's what we now are getting.



    """"And, by the way, why do you use so many damn quotation marks when quoting someone elses post?"""""""

    What's your point, really? Does it really make you mad? Think its all about you, huh?




    """"Putting in all those quotation marks makes you look like an idiot - I mean more so than the drivel you routinely spout, since you showed up here.""""

    I know you are, but what am I? Oh, thought since you were degenerating this into a name calling session, well....

    But since you didnt learn much in history class either, let's try again.

    "And to the REPUBLIC for which it stands."

    That was for free so do go back and get that GED, you'll feel better about it for your future. Really, you will and its useful vs being outsourced by all the illegals.

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  35. You do know that the US is NOT a Democracy but a Representative Republic, right? You know, it's by proxy. The elected sort of people do the governing etc. you are aware of that?

    This reminds me of the Communist Block joke that French Cognac was the drink of the toiling classes, which they drank through their elected representatives.

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