From Time Magazine:
Senator John McCain: “We Are All Ukrainians”
Rod Dreher responds:
No, Sen. McCain, We Are Americans
I'd add that a lot of Ukrainians might not agree that "We are all Ukrainians," or would have very different opinions about what Ukrainians are. Unlike Senator McCain, I feel very little urge to arbitrate these confusing disputes that I barely knew anything about until a month ago.
Time continues:
McCain made his declaration in response to a question from TIME about his famous 2008 statement, “We are all Georgians,” issued when he was a Republican presidential candidate after Russia invaded Georgia.
Okay, "Russia invaded Georgia" in 2008 in the sense that the Soviet Union invaded Germany in 1945. The war started on August 8, 2008, when George sent over 10,000 troops across the de facto border into South Ossetia, which had been de facto not ruled by Georgia for a decade and a half. Now, there are many arguments you can make on Georgia's behalf, such as its legal right to rule the South Ossetians based on old Soviet borderlines, or various provocations across the de facto border.
But, there was no war until Georgia, using over 10,000 men and 80 T-72 tanks, invaded South Ossetia.
I remember it clearly. The news came as a big surprise to everybody except the Georgian government. The lowly wire service stringers immediately reported that Georgia was invading South Ossetia.
After about a day, the bigfoot American pundits were saying that Russia must have invaded Georgia, and that was the dominant Narrative for awhile.
But in the wake of the war, various journalistic organizations did investigations and concluded that the stringers on the spot got the story right originally, and the Bigfoots were wrong. That's how Wikipedia tells it today.
But who care about what really happened in 2008 when you can just keep misleading Americans over and over so that they remember the past wrongly?
Steve, on the Dreher link a commenter made a good point that I had not known. He said Ukraine gave up its inherited nuclear ballistic missiles in 1994 only after the US and others, including Russia, guaranteed its territorial integrity. It was called the Budapest Memorandum. Note here are what was guaranteed:
ReplyDeleteAccording to the memorandum, Russia, the USA, and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:
1- Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
2- Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3- Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4- Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
5- Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6- Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.[1]
It looks like the West might have violated #1 and #3 and the Russians are about to violate #1 and #2.
It's remarkable how hate of Russia over-rides everything else. Remember Bernard-Henri Levy and Libya? And Syria? Well, he was happy to instigate Maidan revolt as well (February 09):
ReplyDelete"Maidan - war against Russia! French against Putin!": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R9CiuGxTVM
Ukrainian press reports that Levy is meeting with Tymoshenko today, too.
Is that it, Steve? I would have thought you would have had a post up by now blaming us for this, but instead you attacked (for the 100th time) a politician of little to no relevance.
ReplyDeleteDoes that mean you are genuinely unnerved by Putin, or is the warm up act for something more substantive later tonight?
What is McCain's problem? Why does he feel the compulsion to insert himself into every conflict around the globe? And by what divinity does he claim to be speaking for all Americans? I swear if there were two obscure tribes of hunter-gatherers in Antarctica quarelling with each other, he would be right at the south pole saying we are all Antarcticans now. Too weird. He is a senator for Arizona. Why can't he just look to that state's affairs?
ReplyDeleteVery happy to see InSane McCain live up to his nickname.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Anonymous at 3/1/14, 6:07 PM:
ReplyDeleteI am not sure (and I can't believe there isn't something more definitive easily available on the internet) that the US Senate actually ratified that memorandum.
How the this agreement was not referred to the US Senate is beyond my comprehension. Isn't there some sort of automatic protocl for this stuff?
Here is my source, but he is not sure either!:
http://thevirtuousrepublic.com/2014/02/28/the-budapest-memorandum-the-u-s-and-britain-guaranteed-ukraines-borders-in-1994/
I have been having an interesting webchat with someone on the Speccie and he or she made a point that I think is valid.
ReplyDeleteThe European project is extremely dear to the hearts of the European elite, but has never gained much traction with ordinary Joe, Johan, Jean or Juan. The elites are sacrificing the material well-being of whole nations on the alter of the single currency.
In the next Euro-elections, anti EU parties could do so well that they effectively de-legitimize the EU.
A Russian threat might just be credible enough to scotch secessionist movements and it might even give independence minded Scots and Catalans pause.
Another possibility is that the US may not be winning in guerrilla wars in the Middle East, but is confident that it can thrash Russia in a conventional war. They believe that would bring Putin down and give them a whole new country to loot.
I am not sure (and I can't believe there isn't something more definitive easily available on the internet) that the US Senate actually ratified that memorandum.
ReplyDeleteSecretary of State Clinton reaffirmed this in 2010 in a joint statement with her Ukraine counterpart.
Both sides reaffirmed their shared vision of a world without nuclear weapons and pledged to work together to prevent proliferation and to realize the Nuclear Security Summit’s goal of securing all vulnerable nuclear materials. The U.S. recognized Ukraine’s unique contribution to nuclear disarmament and reconfirmed that the security assurances, recorded in the Budapest Memorandum with Ukraine of December 5, 1994, remain in effect.
Okay, maybe I'm a demented optimist but there is no appetite in any sector of the American public for fighting a war right now. They certainly didn't/don't want to fight one in Syria, and the foreign policy establishment's ardor for that cooled pretty rapidly once the lack of interest became apparent. The right, center, left, whites, blacks, colors in between -- nobody's interested right now and probably won't be for some time.
ReplyDeleteWhenever I rue the result of the 2008 presidential election, I have only to see John McCain bloviating in front of a camera and I can tell myself, "It could have been worse."
ReplyDeleteI wonder if he ever said, "We are all Vietnamese" while he was bombing civilians.
ReplyDeleteYou know, Anonymous #1, you'd think that when it comes to some supposed treaty that nobody's ever heard of binding the US and the UK to come to the aid of a country few people know much about and fewer care, one might take the trouble to actually read the thing rather than quote the Wikipedia interpretation (and it's really not all that hard to do so since the Wikipedia entry actually gives a link to the text).
ReplyDeleteFirst off, one might be troubled by a "treaty" being called a "memorandum". There's a reason for there being two different words, no? Well, what does thing say for itself:
Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons
Ah. So it's not a treaty, which presumably explains why the US Senate had nothing to do with it.
So, what exactly is the point of this piece of paper. Funny you should ask!
Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,
Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time, Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces. Confirm the following:
Huh. So it's just a "confirmation" of some pre-existing attitude. Great. What exactly are we "confirming"?
[the parties] reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
So, this is a "reaffirmation" of the parties' "commitment" to the principles of the "CSCE Final Act". Great! Hey, wait a minute, what the hell is the "CSCE Final Act"? you might ask. Well, once more Wikipedia comes to the rescue:
The Helsinki Accords, Helsinki Final Act, or Helsinki Declaration was the final act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe held in Finlandia Hall of Helsinki, Finland, during July and August 1, 1975. Thirty-five States, including the USA, Canada, and most European states except Albania and Andorra, signed the declaration in an attempt to improve relations between the Communist bloc and the West. The Helsinki Accords, however, were not binding as they did not have treaty status.
So, wehre does this leave us? This Budapest thing is a non-binding memorandum of understanding pertaining to the meaning of a previous piece of non-binding paper.
Well, if that's not grounds unleashing the panzers for a second attempt to take Moscow, I dunno what is.
Here's a fun thought: how about a wholesale population transfer between Slavic Galicia and Iberian Galicia?
ReplyDeleteNo one would know whom to hate anymore.
We have a hundred senators and yet all one ever sees in the media is this same deranged person over and over again, endlessly. He and the media must have some sort of twisted love affair going.
ReplyDeleteWe are all servants of Eskimos.
ReplyDelete"Unlike Senator McCain, I feel very little urge to arbitrate these confusing disputes that I barely knew anything about until a month ago."
ReplyDeleteYou're wrong Steve, McCain has no desire to arbitrate, just bomb and attack. "Invade the world, invite the world". The senile Neo-cons in Arizona seem to lap it up.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete- Regarding the Budapest Memorandum-
If the US violated the memorandum, it did so by supporting the overthrow of the democratically elected Ukrainian government.
Furthermore, the memorandum does not require us to protect Ukraine from Russia.
If you're a slave but wanna feel empowered, you act like you wanna fight your master's enemy out of personal hatred. I creates the semblance of freedom.
ReplyDeleteMcCain is a slave of the Eskimos. It must be humiliating to be whupped by Obama and to be given orders by Eskimos who made Obama.
But if Mccain acts angry, it gives off the impression that he's acting out of his own volition. It's like a dog barking loudly to remind itself that it's independently angry than merely barking at the behest of its master.
Also, by acting angry and 'decisive', it makes Mccain feel tougher than the man who beat him--Obama.
But all he is is just a servant of the Eskimos.
WE ARE ALL PALESTINIANS.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of the memory hole, it surprises me that while the Press manages to remember on occasion that the transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine was pretty dodgy,they seem to have forgotten how illegitimate the incorporation of Galicia and Volhynia into Ukraine was. Let's remember - in September 1939 Stalin and Hitler were on the same team. The USSR invaded Eastern Poland, murdered the Polish and Ukrainian elites, and generally treated the local population even worse than the Nazis did. You may have heard of a place called Katyn, for that matter. Then after the war these regions were not restored to Poland, they were left under Soviet control by being parceled out to Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine. Some of these territories, Galicia in particular had never been Russian at any time in history. This illegitimate land grab by the USSR is the root of most of the problems in Ukraine today, (and I would argue that Western Ukrainian nationalism is what led, indirectly, to the break up of the USSR) but our media seems allergic to any discussion of how the USSR was often the bad guy during WWII.
ReplyDelete"We have a hundred senators and yet all one ever sees in the media is this same deranged person over and over again, endlessly. He and the media must have some sort of twisted love affair going."
ReplyDeleteHe is the media darling because that is how the leftist media really want all conservatives to. He is mostly liberal domestically and is only seen as conservative because he acts tough internationally, this appeals to them because he is no threat to them domestically and because he does their dirty work by spreading liberalism internationally, they can act holier than thou by not overtly wanting war.
McCain is such a lap dog.
ReplyDeleteWe are all kulaks.
ReplyDelete"What is McCain's problem? Why does he feel the compulsion to insert himself into every conflict around the globe? And by what divinity does he claim to be speaking for all Americans? .... Why can't he just look to that state's affairs?"
ReplyDeleteWhat that guy said. My guess is that McCain thinks it's cooler to play global strategist than actually do his job. Like Nixon. He didn't become president to build outhouses in Preoria. They think they need to be part of some grand historical events. So they hunt them down.
It has to be said - thank God McCain didn't win.
ReplyDeleteWhat is McCain's problem? Why does he feel the compulsion to insert himself into every conflict around the globe? And by what divinity does he claim to be speaking for all Americans? I swear if there were two obscure tribes of hunter-gatherers in Antarctica quarelling with each other, he would be right at the south pole saying we are all Antarcticans now. Too weird. He is a senator for Arizona. Why can't he just look to that state's affairs?
ReplyDeleteAnyone really think that McCain does this crazy schtick all the time as a lone wolf operator? I'd like to think that are some forces other than the boringly predictable Scots-Irish/neocons who are who are McCain's puppetmasters.
Based on others' comments, it seems that the Budapest Memorandum is basically toothless.
ReplyDeleteThank god, because that would be a stupid way to get drawn into a stupid war.
It's been said here and elsewhere, but getting rid of the draft was absolutely brilliant (or a stroke of luck) on the part of the warmongers.
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhat is McCain's problem? Why does he feel the compulsion to insert himself into every conflict around the globe?"
Because he's a senile, rotten, bloody-minded old fool.
We are all Circassians.
ReplyDeleteWell at least this is a step up from Mr. Treason's usual ideas. He's been wanting us to all be Mexicans for quite some time now.
ReplyDeleteGo back to your Dungeons and Harry Potter, McCain.
ReplyDeleteI am Lord Cardigan!
ReplyDeleteWe have a hundred senators and yet all one ever sees in the media is this same deranged person over and over again, endlessly. He and the media must have some sort of twisted love affair going.
ReplyDeleteThe media has always been able to count on McCain for a sound-byte that hurts the GOP, one way or another. There are other liberal, traitorous Republicans who could provide the same service, of course, but his "war hero" persona provides him with a lot of credibility with conservatives who automatically respect any veteran. That allows him to do far more damage than a run-of-the-mill liberal Republican who spent the war in college could do.
Of course, it's real easy to beat the drums for war when you have no actual power to do anything about it.
FWIIW, according to Paul Pilar (former CIA dude of National interest magazine fame): the Budapest Memorandum is not legally binding on anyone. Nobody's parliament/congress ratified it: it's just a gentleman's agreement between diplomats. It also doesn't mention anything about military involvement in the event of a breach.
ReplyDeleteAlso, and perhaps more importantly, apparently the 2010 agreement Ukraine does give Russia the right to do what they're doing in Crimea. It was quite rabidly opposed in the Rada when it finally passed. Crimea has been a separatist problem since the early 90s. I have been unable to retrieve the actual agreement. I'm assuming because Ukraine and Russia are savage nations, it's probably an extremely simple and clear document. I somehow can't imagine Russians or Ukrainians signing some 700 page long "health care plan" type document, even if you pointed a kalishnakov at them.