From the NYT:
Ukraine’s Jews Dismiss Claims of Anti-Semitism
By ANDREW HIGGINS APRIL 8, 2014
DNIPROPETROVSK, Ukraine — From his office atop the world’s biggest Jewish community center, Shmuel Kaminezki, the chief rabbi of this eastern Ukrainian city, has followed with dismay Russian claims that Ukraine is now in the hands of neo-Nazi extremists — and struggled to calm his panicked 85-year-old mother in New York.
Raised in Russia and a regular viewer of Russian television, she “calls every day to ask, ‘Have the pogroms happened yet?' ” Rabbi Kaminezki said. He tells his mother that they have not, and that she should stop watching Russian TV. “It is a total lie,” he said. “Jews are not in danger in Ukraine.”
Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin, added his own voice to the scaremongering in a speech at the Kremlin on March 18, when he described the ouster of President Viktor F. Yanukovych of Ukraine as an armed coup executed by “nationalists, neo-Nazis, Russophobes and anti-Semites” who “continue to set the tone in Ukraine to this day.”
But instead of reeling in panic at any fascist resurgence, the Jewish community of Dnipropetrovsk, one of the largest in Ukraine, is celebrating the recent appointment of one of its own, a billionaire tycoon named Ihor Kolomoysky, as the region’s most powerful official.
“They made a Jew the governor. What kind of anti-Semitism is this?” asked Solomon Flaks ...
Mr. Kolomoysky, the new governor of the Dnipropetrovsk region, derided Rabbi Lazar’s support for Mr. Putin as Kremlin-orchestrated propaganda. ...
Mr. Kolomoysky, a Russian speaker who has both Israeli and Ukrainian passports, scoffed at the Kremlin’s pledges to protect Jews, Russian-speakers and other minorities. ...
Anti-Semitism is experienced in daily life, he said, but gets no support or encouragement from the state, unlike in Russia, where the security services have tolerated and at times nurtured neo-Nazi nationalist groups with openly anti-Semitic agendas. Russia’s state-run news media regularly air the views of Aleksandr A. Prokhanov, the editor of the Zaftra newspaper, a notorious platform for anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
Although not particularly observant, Mr. Kolomoysky, who is also the president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine, has poured tens of millions of dollars into Jewish causes over the years. Together with a fellow billionaire, Gennadiy Bogolyubov, he financed the Menorah Center, the seven-towered, $70 million community center here where the veterans’ association, the Dnipropetrovsk Jewish Community and dozens of other organizations have their offices. Also housed in the building are the Israeli Consulate, a synagogue, kosher restaurants, a Shabbat-friendly hotel and a high-tech Holocaust museum.
The museum skirts the delicate issue of how some Ukrainian nationalists collaborated with the Nazis when Hitler invaded Ukraine in 1941, explaining instead how Jews supported Ukraine’s efforts to become an independent nation.
Before the Holocaust, Jews made up nearly a third of Dnipropetrovsk’s population, making it one of the most important centers of Jewish life and culture in Europe. The city now has 30,000 to 50,000 Jews, a small fraction of a total population of over a million but enough to sustain a vibrant community. The World Jewish Congress estimates that there are more than 250,000 Jews in Ukraine as a whole, the third-largest population of Jews among European nations. ...
When protests against Mr. Yanukovych started in November, he said, many Jews shared the pro-European aspirations of the demonstrators who gathered in Kiev’s Independence Square, though some worried about the role played by far-right nationalist groups. One such group, Svoboda, stirred particular unease because of anti-Semitic remarks by its leaders in the past and their lionization of Ukrainian nationalist heroes who, in some cases, helped the Nazis and shared their ethnicity-based concept of nationhood.
But Rabbi Kaminezki said fears of a fascist revival had faded, “as there is a difference between what these people say to their own crowd and what they do when they become legitimate political leaders.” Anti-Semitism, he added, “exists in Ukraine, like everywhere,” but it has shown no sign of increasing since Mr. Yanukovych lost power. ...
Even Right Sector, a coalition of ultranationalist and in some cases neo-Nazi organizations, has made an effort to distance itself from anti-Semitism. In late February, its leader, Dmytro Yarosh, pledged during a meeting with Israel’s ambassador in Kiev to fight all forms of racism. ...
The protest movement that overthrew Mr. Yanukovych, the letter added, included some unsavory nationalist groups, “but even the most marginal do not show anti-Semitism” and are “well controlled by civil society and the new Ukrainian government — which is more than can be said for the Russian neo-Nazis, who are encouraged by your security forces.”
Allow me to mention again my Taki column on how traditional Fiddler on the Roof-style anti-Tsarism is one of the driving forces in this dangerous America v. Russia brouhaha. It's perfectly understandable why the revival of a stronger, more traditionalist government in Russia so upsets Victoria Nuland, Masha Gessen, or Anne Applebaum, but here in modern American there are a lot of thing we're not supposed to understand, even when they are perfectly understandable.
Russian nationalists attacking Ukrainian nationalists as anti-Semits and vice versa; neither side discussing how Jews may actually be anti-Russian and anti-Ukrainian and be playing both sides against each other.
ReplyDeleteFools.
Democrat gentiles and Republican gentiles try to convince Jews that their side is better for Jews, and it appears Russians and Ukrainians have caught the same bug. How do they justify their positions: it's good for the Jews.
ReplyDeleteMore like, it sounds like Peak Anti-Semitism among White people. A fairly laughable spectacle with Putin and the Ukranians both saying the other fellows are the Nazis and anti-Semites.
ReplyDeleteNeither seem to be, though fairly small but probably insignificant elements of ultra Russian Nationalism and Banderite Ukranian ultra nationalism anti-Jewish sentiment exists among both sides. But likely, not very significant.
If you want to look at people who REALLY like Hitler, well look no further than Dieudonne M'bala M'bala, who in a low rent version of Springtime for Hitler has gotten hundreds of thousands of Africans and North Africans to give a modified Sig Heil and scream that Jews must get out of France or be killed.
Hitler's real heirs are among the Muslim and African masses. They are the ones who want his fruits. Unlike Westerners, they'll risk total industrial warfare because they don't see much downside. A leader untrammeled by restrictions and limits? Plus a convenient scapegoat for their own group failures? Yeah that's most of the Third World peoples.
EVEN Russians and Ukranians, having lesser developed European economies, are not really keen on the elements of the Third Reich. Putin is more a Renaissance Prince not a total dictator.
What's not so understandable is why we even consider interventions that have nothing but downside for the majority of Americans.
ReplyDeleteMr. Kolomoysky, a Russian speaker who has both Israeli and Ukrainian passports, scoffed at the Kremlin’s pledges to protect Jews, Russian-speakers and other minorities.
ReplyDeleteAnti-Semitism is experienced in daily life, he said
Good grief! You can be a billionaire oligarch and get made governor, yet still believe in the pervasive anti-Semitism all around you!
As tedious as the grievance-mongering of American blacks is, they are at least a group of people who are objectively worse off than others around them. But it seems that there is no amount of wealth and power which can be bestowed on Jews which will get them to drop this absurd 'anti-Semitism" claptrap.
Let me add Steve, that this is NOT an issue of anti-Czarism.
ReplyDeleteThis is the NYT blind adherence to the SWPL dogma that all evil stems from White people and none of it from the Third World.
Dieudonne M'bala M'bala is the real heir, to Adolf. But the NYT refuses to see it because it would upset their world view that a real stern scolding about who is more moral would fix things in Europe.
The conflicting Ukranian and Russian nationalism has nothing to do with Jews. There are Jews on both sides as oligarchs. There is no organized anti-Semitism, and that which exists is in marginal figures who when grasping power quickly reject it for European acceptance.
By contrast, the Iranian, and Egyptian, and Muslim Indian, and Turkish idolization of Adolf and adoption of his general principles: total personal dictatorship, scapegoating Jews, organized genocide of out groups (not exclusive to Jews either btw), Lebensraum colonization of other peoples as semi-slaves, industrial warfare, mass cult organization of society, are features of those societies and the sales of Mein Kampf reflect that fact.
What strikes me is how well, European Putin and the Ukranians are behaving. Not like Adolf who was an aberration in Europe, embodying Eastern/Muslim/Despotic tendencies particularly slave empires and a multi-cultural semi-Mohammedan empire.
Guys like Frederick the Great and Louis XIV would have understood Putin and the Ukranians. Adolf, not so much.
"Although not particularly observant, Mr. Kolomoysky,"
ReplyDeleteWhy am I not surprised?
"Good for Jews" in most places in and around Eastern Europe is also good for Gentiles. Remember that those places are filled with various ethnic minorities, Hungarians in Romania, Romanians in Hungary and Bulgaria, Poles in Ukraine, etc.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of a giant ethnic cleansing purge makes people cling to anything that offers protection. Thus both sides are saying that they are committed to no purges or killings. Their struggles are dynastic and power based on fairly elastic nationalism (i.e. Jewish Oligarchs on both sides means there is no purity purge ala Hitler in the offing).
Again this is more European. Far less Thirty Years War, Wallenstein/Tilly type of Magdeburg Quarter, massacre and counter-massacre, where anything to stop the killing is welcome because today's victor could be tomorrow's victim. More 18th Century than 17th.
At worst a more localized slaughter of a few than rampaging Landsknechten killing city after city in total destruction.
Don't be shtoopid Sailer,
ReplyDeleteBe a schmartiee --
Kommen sie und join
the Ashke--Nazi party !!!
"Allow me to mention again my Taki column on how traditional Fiddler on the Roof-style anti-Tsarism is one of the driving forces in this dangerous America v. Russia brouhaha."
ReplyDeleteYes, it is important to bear such things in mind. And , of course, you are one of the few who take into account the role of ethnic animus in shaping American foreign policy.
On the other hand, one shouldn't overstate it, either. Anglo foreign policy has always been about preventing the rise of a dominant power on the continent: Napoleonic France, Kaiser's Germany, Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, etc. In this case, Ashkenazi dislike works hand in glove with traditional Anglo realpolitik.
A Cohencidences.
DeleteCould be vice versa though.
The anti-Russian camp (neocons, the unelected government in Kiev, Ukrainian nationalists) is saying that Russia will move its forces into eastern Ukraine tonight. I have no idea if that's true. I remember Cheney saying that American troops would be met as liberators in Baghdad. That was never going to happen, but I can easily picture a large portion of the east Ukrainian population giving that sort of welcome to the Russian army if it ever shows up.
ReplyDeleteThe Fiddler on the Roof-style Jews were not especially anti-Tsar, nor did they generally hate Russia. Sure, some fraction of them did. Those left Russia at the first opportunity. When you see the Russophobia coming from American Jews, remember that is was a self-selected sample of the former Russian Jewery. On the other hand, the Jews who currently live in Russia or Ukraine are descendants of those that chose to stay behind.
ReplyDelete"In this case, Ashkenazi dislike works hand in glove with traditional Anglo realpolitik."
ReplyDeleteIf traditional Anglo realpolitik were alive today, all of its energies would be directed towards retaking London, Yorkshire, Massachussetts, Virginia etc. Donetsk would be a less pressing matter to it than Alpha Centauri.
Allow me to mention my previous comments basically doubting that James Monroe or Abraham Lincoln ever saw Fiddler on the Roof.
ReplyDeleteHeck let me mention your previous article about the other Kennan.
But prove me wrong folks. Can anyone come up with the name of a notable pro-Tsarist American during Tsardom? Any pro-Tsarist American during Tsardom?
(Yes I know about the mercenary John Paul Jones)
Anonymous:"If traditional Anglo realpolitik were alive today, all of its energies would be directed towards retaking London, Yorkshire, Massachussetts, Virginia etc. Donetsk would be a less pressing matter to it than Alpha Centauri."
ReplyDeleteThe continent of Europe has an outsize role in the Anglo mind. Europeans, even the semi-Asiatic Russians, are so much more interesting than POC.
Pakistan outflanked Eitope by invading Yorkshire, Birmingham and London.
DeleteGame over kafirs.
How much control do governments in Ukraine and Russia have on events on the ground?
ReplyDeleteIn Libya, a lot of people seem to do as they please regardless of government policies.
In the 1930s, Japanese military in Manchuria ignored orders from the Japanese government and kept advancing without permission.
Israel never listens to the US and keeps building settlements in the Occupied Territories.
American settlers in the West ignored federal government orders and kept expanding westward, thereby triggering wars with Indians and Mexicans, some of which the federal government was wary of. (And before the American Revolution, the French and Indian War was something the British would gladly have avoided, but the colonialist settlers kept pushing matters on the ground to the extent where the British had no choice but to enter into a major war with the French.)
While totalitarian governments can pretty much control everything, democratic and even authoritarian governments can only control so much of what happens on the ground.
So, how much of what is happening in Ukraine is government-led and how much of it is people-led?
From a US State Department website:
ReplyDelete1812-1814: Russian Mediation Efforts in War of 1812
In September 1812, the Russian Minister of Foreign Relations, Nikolai Rumiantsev, approached Adams in St. Petersburg with the suggestion that the Russians make an effort to mediate in the increasingly tense conflict between Great Britain and the United States. Russian officials hoped to maintain the American commerce, upon which the Russians had come to depend, and to ensure that more British forces would be freed to combat Napoleon's French troops, which were encroaching on Russian territory. Russia presented documents of its mediation offer to Secretary of State James Monroe on February 27, 1813. Monroe accepted the offer on March 11, and sent a team of negotiators led by Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin and former Senator James Bayard to St. Petersburg shortly thereafter. Unfortunately for the American delegation, the British refused the third-party mediation, despite continued insistence from the Russians that they sit down with the Americans. Frustrated after months of waiting, the Gallatin-Bayard delegation left St. Petersburg in January 1814. In 1815 the Americans met with the British in Belgium, and concluded the Treaty of Ghent without Russian assistance.
More from the US State Department:
ReplyDelete1820-1821: Arbitration of the Treaty of Ghent
When in 1820-1821 the United States and Britain began to disagree over certain provisions of the Treaty of Ghent related to compensation for slaves seized from U.S. territory during the war, the United States suggested that Russia act as a third-party mediator in arbitration. The Russians agreed and settled the disagreement in favor of the Americans.
December 1832: Russian-American Commercial Treaty of 1832
ReplyDeleteThe Russian-American Commercial Treaty of 1832 made no major changes to the status quo, but formalized practices already followed in the growing trade between the two countries. The treaty provided general bilateral trading rights and most-favored-nation treatment.
December 1841: Sale of Fort Ross
The Russians arranged to sell its southernmost Pacific outpost to local American rancher John Sutter for $30,000 in December 1841. The sale did not go through immediately, due to demands from the Mexican Government, which officially controlled the California territory for a time, and then the Mexican-American War. However, payment was finally settled in time for the California gold rush, during which prospectors discovered a good deal of the precious metal on territory formerly controlled by the Russians.
February 1842: American Engineer as Consultant for Russian Railroad
Tsar Nicholas appointed George Washington Whistler as consulting engineer for the Moscow‑St. Petersburg railroad project in February 1842. Whistler ultimately oversaw most of the construction until his death 7 years later, and brought many American managers to Russia to oversee various aspects of the project. This marked the beginning of long-term American involvement with Russian railroad building.
Mid-1850s: Russia, the United States, and the Crimean War
ReplyDeleteAs the European powers vied for control over the declining Ottoman Empire, American political opinion favored Russian interests over the British and the French. This resulted in U.S. efforts to assist the Russians, particularly in the North Pacific, by allowing Russian ships to sail under American neutrality and by supplying the Russians, whose shipping was frequently disrupted by the British.
In June 1854, Beverly Sanders, President of the American Russian Commercial Company, brokered a deal with Russia that gave Americans a monopoly over the marketing of the Russian America Company's products (such as ice, fish, coal, lumber) throughout the Pacific. In return, Sanders agreed to help supply Russian America and Siberian coastal settlements during the war, and arranged for the fictitious sale of Russian ships to his American Russian Commercial Company, thereby allowing them to sail under the American flag. Other private American citizens also concluded supply deals with the Russians during the war.
The United States also offered to broker peace between the British, French, and Russians in the summer of 1854. Although no U.S.-led peace mediation took place, all parties eventually agreed to basic principles of neutral rights at sea.
"The anti-Russian camp (neocons, the unelected government in Kiev, Ukrainian nationalists) is saying that Russia will move its forces into eastern Ukraine tonight."
ReplyDeleteThat wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it.
1854: Cottman Mission
ReplyDeleteThomas Cottman, a wealthy American doctor, traveled to Russia in early 1854 and met with high ranking members of the St. Petersburg court. Although details of these conversations remain vague, upon Cottman's return to the United States in the summer of 1854, the press reported that he had discussed the possible sale of Russian American territories, including Alaska, to the United States.
1854-1855: American Humanitarian Efforts in Crimean War
Spurred by reports from Thomas Cottman regarding the terrible conditions on the warfront, American doctors traveled to the front in Russia to treat casualties of the Crimean War in 1854 and 1855.
... 1857: American Construction of Russian Naval Ships
As agreed upon in the early 1850s, American shipbuilders at the New York shipyards began the construction of warships for the Russian Navy in 1857. This included the construction of the General-Admiral, the largest ship ever built in the United States. The launch of this vessel in 1859 spurred special celebrations in both the United States and Russia. ...
February-March 1861: Russian Emancipation of the Serfs
Just as the United States was about to fight a war motivated in part by the national debate over American slavery, Alexander II issued a manifesto in early 1861 releasing Russian serfs from their servitude. American abolitionists celebrated this turn of events, while Russians watched from afar as the United States descended into armed conflict.
1861-1865: U.S.-Russian Relations during the American Civil War
Russian Minister Stoekel initially encouraged mediation between President Abraham Lincoln's Secretary of State, William H. Seward, and representatives of seceded Southern states; however, after Seward refused such negotiations, the Russians assumed an official position that supported the Union while urging reunification.
September-December 1863: Visits by Russian Imperial Navy
During the Civil War, Russian naval ships sailed to New York in late 1863 to demonstrate Russia's naval capability and its growing support for the North. More importantly, this was a strategic move in anticipation of a possible war with the British following the recent Polish uprising against Russian rule. By staging visits to U.S. ports, the Russian Navy aimed to relocate a number of its ships so that they would not be trapped in the Baltic Sea in the event of war in Europe. New York celebrated the visitors in style, with lavish social events, parades, and military reviews. The ships eventually called on the ports of Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, and Annapolis, and traveled as far south as Alexandria. Russian officers entertained members of the U.S. Cabinet and Congress on board. A separate Pacific squadron visited California.
March 1867: U.S. Purchase of Alaska
Secretary of State Seward secured a deal to purchase Alaska from the Russian tsar for $7.2 million in March 1867. Although the U.S. Congress initially resisted the idea, citing the price as too high, legislators ultimately agreed to the deal because it blocked a large portion of Great Britain's Pacific access, made Alaska's rich mineral resources available to American entrepreneurs, and provided easier access to lucrative Asian trade. Russia had become increasingly frustrated with the expense and difficulty of supplying its businesses in the Pacific territory, and was thus also satisfied with the sale.
By the way, folks, Donetsk, the center of the current crisis, was founded by a Welshman. And not as a fluke, but for a very predictable reason. There is a lot of coal in eastern Ukraine and the Brits were pioneer industrialists. Early experts in the field.
ReplyDeleteWell I'm glad there is no such thing as an anti-White. I mean that is just plain impossible!
ReplyDeleteIs it just me or is history repeating itself, fascist Catholic aristocrats (Uniates and what not) using the Jewish proxy to subvert the Huns (Russians).
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the Russians agian will have to pay a Jewish intermediary to have their church doors opened.
The shameful history of the Poles and their Jewiish subjects is often forgotten in the annals of history.
The above excerpts are from the U.S. State Department:
ReplyDeletehttp://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/85739.htm
RE: Russo-US relations,
ReplyDeleteI don't know how indicative most of your postings are in terms of Americans being "pro-Tsarist." The bulk of them involve commercial interactions and great power maneuvering.
The only instance that seems to show pro-Tsarist sympathies would be the ones involving Alexander II, who, thanks to freeing the Serfs, was in good odour with liberal opinion.
"On the other hand, the Jews who currently live in Russia or Ukraine are descendants of those that chose to stay behind."
ReplyDeleteThe Jews who stayed behind in Russia are reflexively anti-Russian. The opposition to Putin in the Russian media is led by them.
@anony-mouse 4:34
ReplyDeleteI believe the vibrant urban youth would call what you just experienced "getting served."
The two politicians in the most trouble for "separatism" are Jewish... Mykhailo Dobkin and Hennadiy Kernes.
ReplyDeleteThe oligarch that likely pushing this eastern uprising(for leverage to protection his industry) is the blond muslim tartar Rinat Akhmetov.
The main operative orchestrating things from the Russian side is the half-Chechen Vladislav Surkov.
Most of the jews are relatively patriotic citizens of the countries they live in, and every majority of every country likes blaming jews for their misfortunes in the time of crisis.
ReplyDeleteAnon said: "Russian nationalists attacking Ukrainian nationalists as anti-Semits and vice versa; neither side discussing how Jews may actually be anti-Russian and anti-Ukrainian and be playing both sides against each other. "
ReplyDeleteright, because world without Jews was a peaceful, serene place
RE: American attitudes towards Tsarism,
ReplyDeleteHere's a rather famous quote from Lincoln:
"As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy."
So, up through the Alaska sale in 1867, Russian-American relations were generally polite to mildly congenial. There were some commercial spats I left out, but mostly America and Russia were second tier powers who had reasons to cooperate in the Pacific and the North Atlantic against the mighty British Empire. Thus, selling Alaska to America seemed better to the Russians than letting British Canada have it.
ReplyDelete"If you want to look at people who REALLY like Hitler, well look no further than Dieudonne M'bala M'bala, who in a low rent version of Springtime for Hitler has gotten hundreds of thousands of Africans and North Africans to give a modified Sig Heil and scream that Jews must get out of France or be killed."
ReplyDeleteSo, thats what people in the Anglosphere who knows this story understand? His so called "nazi salute" is more like a F*** You to the elites and his anti-semitism stem strangely from anti-racism because to him the Jews are the real rulers of the White people.
To continue on with the State Department historical timeline of Russian-American relations after the Alaska deal of 1867, here are excerpts dealing with Jewish issues:
ReplyDelete1869: Discussion of Russian Jews in the U.S. Press
By the late 1860s, U.S. newspapers began reporting on acts of anti-Semitism toward Jews living in Russia, pointing out that despite a tendency toward progressive reform in Russian society, Russian Jews lacked basic rights. This prompted a report by Eugene Schuyler, U.S. consul at Reval, who criticized the confinement of Russian Jews to western and southwestern border provinces, known as the Pale.
1871: Pogrom against Russian Jews
Russian authorities cracked down on Jews in the city of Odessa over Easter week 1871. U.S. Consul Eugene Schuyler described the economic discrimination against Russian Jews in a memorandum to the U.S. Department of State. Russian Jews began to consider emigrating.
April-May 1881: More Anti-Jewish Pogroms
Anti-Semitism continued to grow in Russia, encouraged by the fact that some of Alexander II's assassins were Jews, rising Slavic nationalism, and an economic depression. A spate of violent pogroms waged against Jews took place, mainly in the spring of 1881, particularly in Warsaw, Kiev, and Elizavetgrad, and continued into 1882. The Russian Government officially banned public debate of the Jewish issue. Those Russian Jews who could fled to other countries; many came to the United States, assisted by philanthropic organizations founded by American Jews.
1893: Russian Refusal to Issue Visas to American Jews
The Russian Government continued to enforce anti-Semitic laws, and in 1893 adopted a policy to deny American Jews visas for visits to Russia on the basis of their religion. Despite official and unofficial American protest, the Russians maintained this policy for decades.
April 1903: Kishinev Pogrom
Russian and Moldovan citizens of the Bessarabian provincial capital of Kishinev launched a violent attack against the Jewish quarter of the city on Orthodox Easter Sunday, in April 1903, killing dozens of people, injuring hundreds more, and destroying much of the neighborhood. The American Jewish community issued recriminations against the Russian central government, which tried to deny the extent of the violence. U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt finally agreed to cable his personal protest to the Russian Foreign Minister.
1905-1906: Russian Revolution of 1905
Growing resentment against autocratic rule from urban industrial workers, Marxist revolutionaries, and other liberal reform-minded Russians spilled onto the streets in a large demonstration in St. Petersburg on January 22, 1905. Known as "Bloody Sunday" for the strong retaliation from the military and police, this uprising sparked a series of similar revolts around the empire throughout 1905, frustrating authorities and interfering with regular business and industry. Conservative groups retaliated, particularly against Jews. Many Russian Jews followed their relatives and friends to the United States.
December 1911: Abrogation of the U.S.-Russian Commercial Treaty
On December 13, 1911, the U.S. House of Representatives voted, 301 to 1, to abrogate the 1832 Treaty of Commerce with Russia. Congress objected to the Russian Government's refusal to accept passports issued to Russian-born Jews who had become naturalized American citizens. The Senate approved the House's action on December 19, and the joint resolution was adopted on December 21. On December 17, Ambassador Curtis Guild notified Russian Foreign Minister Sergei D. Sazanov that the United States intended to terminate the treaty as of January 1, 1913. No progress was made toward negotiating a new commercial treaty before World War I and the Russian Revolution.
Anonymous:"I believe the vibrant urban youth would call what you just experienced "getting served."
ReplyDeleteI'm not the person to whom you responded, but I'm not sure how effective those postings were. It seems to me that Steve was asked to find 19th century Americans who were pro-Tsarist. Which is to say, people who thought that the Tsarist system was really great and ought to stay in place. What Steve found does not quite meet that criterion.
There are other themes in the 50 years after 1867, such as the growth in popularity of Russian culture in America with the first translations of the great Russian writers in the 1880s, the growth of liberal American opposition to czarist oppression (such as the first George Kennan), the divergence of commercial interests (after high hopes, Americans didn't get cut in on the deal to build the Trans-Siberian railroad), arguments over trade with China (Russians wanted a sphere of influence, American's wanted an Open Door for trade), and growing U.S. realignment with Britain.
ReplyDeleteSteve:"There are other themes in the 50 years after 1867, such as the growth in popularity of Russian culture in America with the first translations of the great Russian writers in the 1880s, the growth of liberal American opposition to czarist oppression (such as the first George Kennan), the divergence of commercial interests (after high hopes, Americans didn't get cut in on the deal to build the Trans-Siberian railroad), arguments over trade with China (Russians wanted a sphere of influence, American's wanted an Open Door for trade), and growing U.S. realignment with Britain."
ReplyDeleteThis is unworthy of you, Steve. We get a lengthy Jewish-centric account of worsening US-Russian relations, with everything non-Jewish related dumped into a post script?
I realize that you see much of your mission as being about discussing those things that get ignored by the MSM, but please don't turn into a mirror image of the MSM.
Anti-Semitism is disturbingly increasing in Russia: only 3 years for denying the nazis shot poles by the thousands in Katyn or assassinated 4 Million of my Co-Religionists in Auschwitz.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteAt least some American spiritual leaders including Mary Baker Eddy instructed her followers to pray for peace over the Russo-Japanese war. It suggests that aome affection for Russia and Russians
http://www.portsmouthpeacetreaty.com/BahaCenter_treaty.cfm
Donetsk tonight. The word they're chanting (Ruh-see-yuh) means Russia.
ReplyDeleteThis is for serious movie buffs: Right Sector guys are breaking up parts of the staircase from Battleship Potemkin to get some stones to throw at pro-Russian demonstrators.
This is called "waiting for sanctions".
OT, The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want U.S. to intervene
ReplyDeletehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/
If only the republicans/fox news would stop educating the populace on the middle east.
Then there was all sorts of stuff that's kind of hard to wrap our heads around now, such as the growth in wealth of German-speaking Jews in America with cultural ties to the German and Austrian Empires (e.g., Frankfurt-born Jacob Schiff of Kuhn Loeb of Wall Street). Up through the 1860s, Prussia and Austria were rivals, but they slowly became allies and Prussian-led Germany allowed its friendship with Russia to wither and be replaced with the weird alliance between the Romanovs and the Republic of France. American Jews tended to look to the German-speaking Empires as allies in resisting the anti-Semitism of Russia.
ReplyDeleteIn 1914, many Jews worldwide were sympathetic towards Germany and Austria. The British began moving towards the Balfour Declaration (issued late 1917) to woo American and Galician Jews. The Germans were initially enthusiastic about countering that bid with their own Balfour-like promise of a Zionist homeland, but their Ottoman allies would not countenance Germany giving away part of the Ottoman empire, so the German foreign office dropped the idea.
The abdication of the Czar in early 1917 under pressure from his generals removed the Czarist impediment toward American entry into the war on the side of Britain, France, and an apparently modernizing and democratic Russia.
Jews played some role in this, but much was a fight between two sets of progressives: Northeastern pro-British WASPs v. Midwestern anti-militarist Germans and isolationist WASPs. The czar as an ally was an embarrassment to the pro-British Eastern Seaboard WASP elite and they were happy to see him go.
ReplyDeleteCS Monitor article on 100th anniversary of peace talks at Portsmouth, NH.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1230/p04s01-woap.html/(page)/2
The American explorer and travel writer John Lloyd Stephens (1805-1852)had a rather dim view of the social consequences of Tsarism :
ReplyDelete"The marks of physical and personal degradation on the Russian serf "were so strong, that I was insensibly compelled to abandon certain theories not uncommon among my countrymen at home in regard to the intrinsic superiority of the white race above all others.Perhaps,too, this impression was aided by my having previously met with Africans of intelligence and capacity, standing on a footing of perfect equality as soldiers and officers in the Greek army and the Sultan's."
(p. 81, RETURN PASSAGES:GREAT AMERICAN TRAVEL WRITING,1780-1910, Larzer Ziff)
These are all very nice excerpts but none show pro-Tsarist feelings among any Americans.
ReplyDeleteIf for example a lot of Americans appreciated translations of Russian novels, good for them, (well maybe not Chernyshevsky), equally the various commercial ventures and then the purchase of Alaska.
I'd have no trouble for example finding Americans appreciative of the British system of government and of Queen Victoria herself. Garibaldi was very popular in the US, and for a while, the French Revolutionary regime too, especially among the Jeffersonian party.
Number of Americans having nice things to say even of the Tsar-Liberator? Zero. Even the State Department can't find one.
Steve:"Jews played some role in this, but much was a fight between two sets of progressives: Northeastern pro-British WASPs v. Midwestern anti-militarist Germans and isolationist WASPs. The czar as an ally was an embarrassment to the pro-British Eastern Seaboard WASP elite and they were happy to see him go."
ReplyDeleteDon't leave out the Irish nationalists; they were none to keen about fighting on the side of the British Empire.
I see that the NYT no longer bothers to disguise the fact that they are really The Jewish Interests Times.
ReplyDeleteInteresting account of the origin of the tale that John Quincey Adams was the Tsar's pimp:
ReplyDelete"Another, more ludicrous attack was the story relating to the czar of Russia. While Adams was minister to Russia, a young chambermaid on his staff wrote a letter in which she made some casual remarks about the czar. On being informed of the letter, the czar was so amused and curious that he asked to speak to her. So during his next audience with the czar, Adams brought the woman in for a brief (and public) conversation. This humdrum story had no political appeal until it appeared in a short sketch of Jackson published by Isaac Hill in which Hill accused Adams of being a pimp who had procured a woman for the lascivious pleasure of the czar. Once the story appeared in the sketch, it spread throughout the Jackson press."
More from the US State Department timeline on Russian-American relations. Here are items in the post-1867 era of friendly relations:
ReplyDeleteNovember 1871-February 1872: Visit to the United States by Grand Duke Alexis
As part of his world tour, the third son of Tsar Alexander II stopped in the United States in November 1871 for a visit of several months. Alexis made public appearances and attended galas in New York, Washington, Annapolis, and Philadelphia before heading west. Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit, and St. Louis welcomed him before Alexis set off to the plains of Nebraska for a buffalo hunt with General George Custer and William (Buffalo Bill) Cody. A number of Sioux chiefs also met with the Russian dignitary. The Grand Duke enjoyed his trip immensely, and returned 5 years later for another visit with his American friends and acquaintances.
Spring 1872: General Sherman Visits Russia
Tsar Alexander II granted them an audience and formally thanked the Americans for the warm reception of Alexis during his recent visit to the United States.
January 1877: The Grand Duke's Second Visit to the United States
Grand Duke Alexis, now a captain in the Russian navy, returned to the United States in January 1877, with a Russian squadron, to seek security during armed conflict in the Balkans.
1877-1878: U.S. Assistance during the Russo-Turkish War
Turkish action against Slavs in the Balkans led to armed conflict between Russia and the Ottoman Empire. The United States supplied Russia with naval ships and weapons. ...
July-August 1878: Former President Grant Visits Russia
The visit of former U.S. President Ulysses S. Grant to Russia in the summer of 1878 marked the first time a former president had visited Russia.
1886: Translation of Major Works of Russian Literature
A number of Russian works had been translated for American audiences earlier in the 1800s, but in 1886 a number of major works became available to the U.S. market. American translators published Russian books that had immediate and longstanding popularity in the United States. These included Leo Tolstoy's masterpieces Anna Karenina and War and Peace, and Fedor Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment.
1891-1893: Russian Famine
... After initial resistance to accepting outside aid, the Russian autocracy organized a special committee led by the heir to the throne, Grand Duke Nicholas, to coordinate relief. The famine also served to encourage further Russian emigration to the United States.
Spring-Summer 1893: Chicago World's Fair, Columbian Exposition
The Russian Government sent a large delegation to the 1893 international world's fair in Chicago. The Russians staged sixteen displays at the exposition. By exhibiting at the fair, the Russian Government aimed to express their official thanks to the American people for famine relief, promote the advances of Russian industry, and learn about technical advances in the West.
November 1894: Death of Tsar Alexander III
Nicholas II, son of Alexander III, ascended the throne upon his father's death in November 1894. Many Americans were already familiar with the former Grand Duke, who had traveled to the United States, organized international famine relief in the early 1890s, and participated in negotiations regarding a Trans‑Siberian railroad. Nicholas II appointed to his court a number of well-traveled officials who enjoyed significant contacts with high-level American officials and professionals.
August 1898: Russian Call for International Peace Conference
But I'll go farther than that, Steve. Tsarism wasn't very particularly popular in Russia either.
ReplyDeleteAs I pointed out before, the
Tsar was overthrown in 5 days purely by ordinary Russians, starting with a demonstration of hungry housewives, eventually assisted by members of the upper classes. Compare that to the months it took to overthrow Louis XVI and the years it took to overthrow Charles I.
Astonishingly, the U.S. Government is not immune to this global wave of vicious Anti-Semitism.
ReplyDeleteI'll personally take care of that guy.
Here's a rather famous quote from Lincoln:
ReplyDelete"As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal."
Words which never meant to the Founders what Lincoln and those after him took them to mean.
As I've been pointing out for weeks, czarism was the antithesis of American political philosophy, which evolved under more geographically and culturally favorable conditions. But most Americans enjoyed the genealogical luxury of not taking czarism personally. Thus the Lincoln and A. Johnson Administrations, for example, enjoyed warm and productive relations with St. Petersburg, which netted the U.S. Alaska.
ReplyDelete"Compare that to the months it took to overthrow Louis XVI and the years it took to overthrow Charles I."
ReplyDeleteThis is extremely ignorant. By 1917 Communism was a very old problem for Russia. Alexander II was killed by leftists in 1881. Lenin became a professional revolutionary in 1901.
"Tsarism wasn't very particularly popular in Russia either."
What, you ran back and conducted a poll?
Anony-mouse said: Allow me to mention my previous comments basically doubting that James Monroe or Abraham Lincoln ever saw Fiddler on the Roof.
ReplyDeleteHunsdon said: Is this willful obtuseness?
Fiddler, a product of Ashkenazi brilliance, displays some fair animus towards the czar. Ashkenazi Jews, as Fiddler indicated over a century ago, had and have an anti-czarist outlook. Since Ashkenazi Jews more or less run American foreign policy (and certainly have their hands all over the Russia portfolio), a certain amount of anti-czarist animus remains.
Or did you have a more subtle point to make?
The ukrainian nationalists/nazis/1488ers must be a real joke because the Ukr jews surely aren't scared of them.
ReplyDeleteOr we're being completely and utterly misinformed.
Or the elite jews in the ukr have a deal with the 1488ers and don't mind if the little jews get a bit hurt.
It's true that the WWII Banderites were fighting for Ukr, but they certainly didn't spare the jews.
the Ukrainian nazi death camp guard is a trope of holocaust historiography isn't it ?
weird.
Most of the jews are relatively patriotic citizens of the countries they live in, and every majority of every country likes blaming jews for their misfortunes in the time of crisis.
ReplyDeleteAre we to believe that "most Jews" combine patriotism towards their adopted countries with a deep-seated mistrust of their fellow countrymen. I mean, what kind of patriotism is that?
The geographically favorable conditions here and in England didn't cause the "evolution" of better ideas about civic life.
ReplyDeleteIn general, better ideas come from better people, wherever they live. Don't give tyranny a pass.
"I mean, what kind of patriotism is that?"
ReplyDeleteSensible?
The elite Jews are smart enough to know that WWII was a long time ago and that someone who calls himself a Banderite today is almost certainly a far different creature than someone who used that label back then-for a lot of different reasons.
ReplyDeletePlus he who has the gold makes the rules.
Keeping in mind the various prejudices and animosities of your fellow countrymen and reminding them occasionally that you are aware of their biases is patriotic: it encourages everybody to argue more honestly.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous:"Words which never meant to the Founders what Lincoln and those after him took them to mean."
ReplyDeleteWhich is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Anonymous:"The jewish elite knows that their powerbase is the Anglosphere, anything that come to rivalize that is a threat: France, Middle-East, Russia,.."
ReplyDeleteWhich basically means that elite Jews are in favor of Anglo power.
Hunsdun:" Since Ashkenazi Jews more or less run American foreign policy"
ReplyDeleteMore like run Middle Eastern policy. And, even there, limitations exist.After all, war with Iran still eludes them, despite the mighty and enduring assistance of John ("bomb-bomb-bomb Iran") McCain. Jewish influence over other areas seems less pronounced.
Steve:"As I've been pointing out for weeks, czarism was the antithesis of American political philosophy, which evolved under more geographically and culturally favorable conditions. But most Americans enjoyed the genealogical luxury of not taking czarism personally."
ReplyDeleteAmericans also functioned during much of the 19th century as a second tier power, one which basically saw the New World as its theatre of operations.
Anonymous:" Thus the Lincoln and A. Johnson Administrations, for example, enjoyed warm and productive relations with St. Petersburg, which netted the U.S. Alaska."
Which also helped to both
A. Deprive Britain of another potentially valuable peace of North American real estate, and
B. remove Russia from the New World.
The geographically favorable conditions here and in England didn't cause the "evolution" of better ideas about civic life.
ReplyDeleteIn general, better ideas come from better people, wherever they live. Don't give tyranny a pass.
How much ruin do you need to see before you start questioning how much "better" these certain ideas of civic life are?
Most of the jews are relatively patriotic citizens of the countries they live in, and every majority of every country likes blaming jews for their misfortunes in the time of crisis.
ReplyDelete-- The Party Line --
>the Nazis and [...] their ethnicity-based concept of nationhood<
ReplyDeleteKolomoysky is a Nazi? Maybe Kaminezki's ma is right to plotz.
At least now we know of somebody who takes RT seriously, eh?
Re. Russia-friendly American policy pre-Bolshevik Revolution:
When reading the list of items provided by the US State Department above, try a thought experiment. Substitute "Hitler's Germany" for all references to Russia in them. Half those items would then be enough to be considered proof positive of American collaborationism, and even of Goldhagenian cultural rot. Pope Pius XII, had he been suitably empowered, wouldn't have been able to get away with a single one of them. But when Jews aren't involved, suddenly those items prove and indicate just exactly nothing.
"Most of the jews are relatively patriotic citizens of the countries they live in, and every majority of every country likes blaming jews for their misfortunes in the time of crisis. "
ReplyDeleteSure, that's why they reflexively and firmly support every anti-majority cause. Put differently, it's a patriotism that loves the country but hates its people. Perhaps this is what you meant by "relatively - relative to how well it serves their interests.
This is unworthy of you, Steve.
ReplyDelete"Unworthy." That belongs right up there with: noxious, ugly and canard.
>> But it seems that there is no amount of wealth and power which can be bestowed on Jews which will get them to drop this absurd 'anti-Semitism" claptrap.
ReplyDeletefixing that sentence for you:
"there is no amount of pyschological rationalization-hamstering by American Jews that will convince working-class Israelis that the American Jews are justified in shirking the tribal responsibility to share in the conscription&Reserves obligation to the IDF"
American's(sic) wanted an Open Door for trade.
ReplyDeleteAmericans wanted an Open Door for OPIUM. Check out Warren Delano(FDR's maternal grandfather) who made 150 million in the "china trade" twice. He lost the first 150 million in the Panic of 1859 and went back to China and made it again. You think he was selling tea and plates up the Yangtze?
I always was a little slow, but I think I'm starting to get it:
ReplyDelete"Anti-semitism somewhere in the world! American must attack! Anti-semitism somewhere in the world! Russia must attack!"
"How much ruin do you need to see before you start questioning how much "better" these certain ideas of civic life are?"
ReplyDeleteThey'll never learn. Anglo types are proud of democracy because it's theirs, not because it works. In the real world it's never not been a failure. Democracy is too exploitable to be lasting. When Soros says he promotes open societies, he isn't lying. The more open, the more exploitable, and he likes to exploit.
Intellectual achievements? How do you know they happened because and not in spite of it? Murray found no correlation between the two, meaning that in the past great men were as likely to live in absolute monarchies as in republics.
Lots of peoples besides Anglos imagine their greatest weaknesses and worst personality traits to be their greatest assets. That's actually normal. The main thing is to mentally correct for others' and one's own biases.
Whiskey said...
ReplyDelete...
If you want to look at people who REALLY like Hitler, well look no further than Dieudonne M'bala M'bala, who in a low rent version of Springtime for Hitler has gotten hundreds of thousands of Africans and North Africans to give a modified Sig Heil and scream that Jews must get out of France or be killed
===
Dieudonné's quenelle has been around for several years and it's been all this time an "up yours" kind of gesture. If anyone is using it as an inverted nazi salut it's thanks to the media brouhaha from a few months ago.
The quenelle can be appropriated for any dissident cause. It essentially says, "I am going to speak my mind on what I think is an important issue and I don't give a damn who's offended or upset by it. Those who would do the same, join me."
ReplyDeleteThe museum skirts the delicate issue of how some Ukrainian nationalists collaborated with the Nazis when Hitler invaded Ukraine in 1941, explaining instead how Jews supported Ukraine’s efforts to become an independent nation.
ReplyDeleteDoes the museum also skirt the delicate issue of the Holodomor?
Back in 2009, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported on a controversy in Ukraine. The security service was bringing a case against former Soviet officials in the Great Famine.
The nation’s security service is pressing the case against a list of former Soviet officials accused of committing the Holodomor, which caused the deaths of millions in Ukraine in 1932-33. Most of the names on the list were Jewish.
Apparently opening up an investigation into the Holodomor would incite anti-semitism. And it was no longer necessary to do so according to one lawmaker:
Ukrainian lawmaker Aleksandr Feldman, leader of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee, said last week that it was "a farce" to press the case.
“All organizers of the Great Famine are dead," he said.
Maybe we ought to apply that standard to all grievances in this country. If the organizers of the crimes are dead, there is no use discussing it. The slaver owners are dead and gone, so we don't need to discuss it. The restrictive country club members are now dead, so we don't need to bring that up either.
PS. This Holodomor case was brought up in 2009. If I am not mistaken, wasn't a pro-Western guy in power then?
What I find interesting given the extreme level of Jewish emmigration from Tsarist Russia is the almost total lack of gentile immigration from Tsarist Russia outside of a few special groups.
ReplyDeleteLook at what gentiles did come from the Russian Empire in numbers large enough to organize into a noticable American church group - Finns (see the Finnish Evangelical Luthern Church of America), Poles (in ethnic Catholic parishes and the Polish National Catholic Church), Lithuanians (again, numerous ethnic Catholic parishes), and Russian Germans (Lutheran Mennonite/Hutterite, and Catholic, settling on our great plains).
For numbering close to 100 million in the relevant period, by far the biggest ethnic group in Europe, the East Slavs - Russians, Belarussians, and Ukrainians not from Galicia and Transcarpathia are essentially invisible in the US. The prominent slavic Orthodox Churches - the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, its daughter the Orthodox Church in America, and American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church, all descend primarily from Carpatho-Russians (Rusyns) and Galician Ukrainians disaffected with treatment in America by the Irish heirarchy (see John Ireland and Alexis Toth) - in other words, primarily immigrants from Austria-Hungary.
Since there was clearly no lack of emmigration out of Russia by those who wanted out - millions of Jews and Poles left - one can only attribute this utter lack of Russian Americans pre-1917 to first a satisfaction with basic conditions and opportunities in Tsarist Russia and its governmental system post the abolition of serfdom, and second the wide open expanses of the regions of the Don and Kuban, Siberia fron the Urals to Lake Biakal, the plains of Kazakhstan, and the ever growing cities of Russia and Ukraine (along with Riga, Almatay, and Baku) in which to settle the surplus population produced by the Russian and Ukrainian peasantry.
Call it an early proof of affordable family formation
It was probably inevitable that an emmigrant population consisting mostly of Jews and various ethnic minorities (along with the sprinkling of anti-Communist White Russians post WWI) would strangely color the formally cordial American-Russian relations.documented by Steve as their long-lasting grievances against their former homeland found political expression in new found political power.
Anon:
ReplyDeleteApparently opening up an investigation into the Holodomor would incite anti-semitism. And it was no longer necessary to do so according to one lawmaker:
And this should explain why the descendants of the victims of the Holodomor in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, (in a famine which strectched to include Russia's Black Earth country in the Don and Volga basins all the way to Saratov), don't exactly feel any animus towards Russia and Russians about it, while the descandants of western nationalists Ukrainians who were not even part of Soviet Union at the time and thus obviously not its victims - the Galicians, Volhynians, and Carpathians, nurse an everlasting grudge against all possible participants the event they view as denying them for all time the formation of a "Great Ukraine" that would have stretched over the Don to Astrakhan and Chechnya.
One will never hear more complaining about the Holodomor than from a Galician Catholic Ukrainian whose ancestors were either safely in Poland at the time, or better yet lodged across the sea in America or Canada.
Meanwhile, the perpatrators of this and other crimes against the Slavic people of that region lived to comfortable retirements and old age in the Soviet Union (such as Kaganovich - guess he original prior to becoming a Bolshevik), but even more gallingly, in Israel.
Our host said: Keeping in mind the various prejudices and animosities of your fellow countrymen and reminding them occasionally that you are aware of their biases is patriotic: it encourages everybody to argue more honestly.
ReplyDeleteHunsdon said: If ONLY "sauce for the goose" was "sauce for the gander." But as we all know, it's not. When you point out the various prejudices and animosities of some of your countrymen, it's anti-Semitic.
Anonydroid at 8:17 PM demurred: More like run Middle Eastern policy.
ReplyDeleteHunsdon said: OK, it's a slight bank shot, but Russia's protection of Syria FROM AL-QAEDA would fall under Middle Eastern foreign policy, wouldn't it?
And let's see who's fingerprints are all over our Ukraine adventures. Or is this another case of the poor agency-less Jews? Poor little Victoria Nuland-Kaganovitch, carrying out policy dictated by the Campbells, the MacDonalds, and the Featheringstonhaughs? Like a shabbos goy, only Jewish.
I'm trying to think of another time that I've read the American MSM pouring cold water on claims of "ANTI-SEMITISM!!!"
ReplyDeleteNah, I got nothin'.
How is this any of this a Jewish issue anyway? And the NYT is supposed to be THE paper of record for all of us. Maybe that's why Taki calls NY the Big Bagel.
ReplyDeleteGilbert P
A link to Vineyard of the Saker's blog post. An ethnic Russian, so apply appropriate discounts, but I've found it thought provoking and a useful counterbalance to the narrative pushed in the West.
ReplyDeletehttp://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/04/how-jewish-elites-deliberately-endanger.html
This is unworthy of you, Steve.
ReplyDeleteConcern troll is concerned.
Most of the jews are relatively patriotic citizens of the countries they live in, and every majority of every country likes blaming jews for their misfortunes in the time of crisis.
ReplyDeleteI think the issue is more about whether they're blameworthy than about whether people like blaming them. The whole "oh, everyone blames us for all their misfortunes" thing isn't for grownups. I mean, who reads that and then goes, "whelp, better not research further then?"
And if you research further you know the blameless Jooz thing is just silly. It sounds like the sort of flimsy game teenage girl runs on her parents.
It's also misanthropic (big surprise): "it's not us! It's the entire rest of humanity!"
Anonymous: "Are we to believe that "most Jews" combine patriotism towards their adopted countries with a deep-seated mistrust of their fellow countrymen. I mean, what kind of patriotism is that?"
ReplyDeleteSailer: "Sensible?"
Well, it might help explain the American Jewish community's near unanimous support for massive Third World immigration.
The irony is that Hispanics and Asian immigrants are far less likely to by simpathetic to American support of Israel that our "nativist" Euro-American population, formerly known as the American people.
I'm sorry to have to wite the first paragraph and even sorrier to have to draw the conclusion in the second.
P.S. An unconsious indifference to the fate of America's working class under Nafta and Gatt might also explain the near unanimous support of American academic economists, led by Paul Samuelson and Paul Krugman, for these ruinous trade treaties, which are just as harmful as the 1965 immigration reform.
It is not that they were conciously hostile to the welfare consequences of these new trade policies. Rather it was more of a case of realizing in the backs of their minds that their co-ethnics had nothing to worry about for the most part.
Here's Oleksandr Feldman from way, way, way back in January of 2014.
ReplyDeleteLink. http://www.jta.org/2014/01/15/news-opinion/world/ukrainian-protest-movement-must-shun-anti-semitic-elements
This became crystal clear during a cringe-inducing vertep, a comedic skit based on Ukrainian folk tradition, performed on the main stage at Euromaidan on New Year’s Eve. Based equally on the birth of Jesus and contemporary Ukrainian politics, the lead role was played by a Svoboda parliamentarian named Bogdan Benyuk, who donned black garb and sidelocks to play a stereotypical Orthodox Jewish wheeler-dealer character called Zhyd (Kike). Explaining to the crowd that he is involved in various occupations — including banking, stock market speculation, loan sharking and hosting a talk show — the Jewish oligarch character sings gleefully, “East and West belong to me; our people are everywhere.”
Zhyd creates problems for the newborn Jesus and contemplates taking a bribe from a character evoking both Yanukovych and King Herod to help him crush the protesters. Fascinatingly, the Jew switches sides and joins the opposition when he learns that on orders from the king, the regime’s forces are preparing to kill Jewish firstborns. The audience is given to understand that the shift in loyalty is due not to a belated outburst of conscience, but rather because Zhyd is worried the regime may turn on his own people.
The bottom line of the supposedly all-in-good-fun skit — it was followed by a solemn singing of the Ukrainian national anthem and congratulatory speeches by Yatsenyuk, Klitschko and Tyahnybok — appeared to be that while perfidious Jewish oligarchs care only for the welfare of Jews, given their supposed power and influence it’s preferable for the opposition coalition to have them inside the tent pissing out rather than the other way around.
Read more: http://www.jta.org/2014/01/15/news-opinion/world/ukrainian-protest-movement-must-shun-anti-semitic-elements#ixzz2yP6nce4h
@Whiskey
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to undertand the humour of it especially in another language but Dieudonné's jokes on the Holocaust are more sacreligious or blasphemous offenses than hate crimes because the Holocaust and especially the Duty of Memory of it is a de facto secular religion in the West.
Dieudonné made fun of every ethnic groups and religions and was very popular among everybody who's anybody for it. But when he made fun of a Jewish settler in Israel the lobbies and the "powers that be" were not laughing. Instead of saying "I'm sorry" and "I will never do that again" he just dugged himself deeper and deeper from his jokes on the Jews and never appeared on tv and cinema because of this since. He came back because of the Internet and that's drving them mad.
They'll never learn. Anglo types are proud of democracy because it's theirs, not because it works.
ReplyDeleteOlder Anglo types tended to see themselves following an older tradition set by the Greeks and Romans, not something totally unique to the British.
True enough, but Russia isn't backing the Palestinians. Iran is. Like the Syria intervention, no military commitment that might involve a sidelining of the attack on Iran is going to get off the launch pad. Russia is going to have no appetite for causing trouble over Iran now it is digesting Crimea and possibly other parts of Ukraine. In fact this is all shaping up nicely for Obama to move in for the kill on Iran afore he goes.
ReplyDeleteThe city now has 30,000 to 50,000 Jews, a small fraction of a total population of over a million but enough to sustain a vibrant community.
ReplyDeleteHa, would any city with a minority population of 3%-5% be considered sufficiently vibrant on this side of the Atlantic?
Anonydroid at 10:22 AM said: Instead of saying "I'm sorry" and "I will never do that again" [Dieudonné] just dugged himself deeper and deeper from his jokes on the Jews and never appeared on tv and cinema because of this since. He came back because of the Internet and that's drving them mad.
ReplyDeleteHunsdon said: Kind of like Lenny Bruce?
Sean said: In fact this is all shaping up nicely for Obama to move in for the kill on Iran afore he goes.
ReplyDeleteHunsdon said: Not if it goes through Syria. There's that little Russian "technical support point" (no, tovarisch, is not baza) to consider.
Older Anglo types tended to see themselves following an older tradition set by the Greeks and Romans, not something totally unique to the British.
ReplyDeleteSome old-timey Americans thought this way (especially wrt the Roman Republic), but not many English. They saw Parliament, Common Law, and the rights of the true-born Englishman as something sui generis, correctly for the most part.
Russians didn't emigrate to America because they had their own frontier. Moscow crossed the Urals and conquered the khanate of Sibr around 1600, a few years before Jamestown. Russians reached the Pacific around 1650, around the founding of cape town. Russia, like America or south Africa, is part of the European expansion into new lands that begun in the 1600s and reached its peak around 1930. Russia are no more European than afrikaaners.
ReplyDelete