At Razib's blog, commenter Spike Gomes makes a sociological observation I found interesting about Asian-Americans below the Tiger Mother class:
In Hawaii and parts of the West Coast, there’s a sort of unified “lower middle-class” pan-Asian America (at least East and SE Asian American) urban youth culture forming. It’s partially informed by black culture, particularly the music and clothes, but quite unique in its own way, with it’s souped up and customized cars and motorcycles, illegal road racing, tech bling, pan-Asian random pastiche aesthetic and b-boy dance-offs. I have far too many cousins who are into that lifestyle.
I've seen a little bit of this sort of 95 IQ Asian-American youth culture. They don't get any attention because they don't cause much trouble unless they hit somebody while drag racing.
Is there a name for this group that seems to center around Filipinos and Vietnamese, plus the lower half of the bell curve among Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese? How pan-East Asian is it?
I don't know but I do know that a lot -- a mean a lot, of Asians are into Shish bars. South Asians I would expect, but a heck of a lot of east Asians are too.
ReplyDeleteOh, and in London the student pub at the School of Oriental and Asian Studies -- SOAS, is the place to get your natural and artificial psychotropics. Not openly or legally, of course, but if you want to make a connection, that's the place.
I've heard this phrase in many places, but know nothing about it except vaguely it was some kind of hip hop group.
ReplyDeleteI think they should be called the Wu Tang Clan.
Its not just the West coast, it just seems that way as more Asians are there. There's plenty of it going on here on the outskirts of DC, as my home near the highway can attest to at night.
ReplyDeleteKorean, Japanese and Chinese kids don't seem to fall into this group. Most of the Northeast Asians I knew in high school with subpar intelligence read manga and drank bubble tea, in an attempt to be stereotypically Asian (AzN).
ReplyDeleteThe groups who tried to act black tended to be Southeast Asian: Cambodians, Laotians, Filipinos, etc. Think of the cast from Gran Torino (they were Hmong).
Vietnamese people tended to fall in-between. I once joked to a Vietnamese girl that Vietnamese people are Northeast Asians who happened to live in Southeast Asia.
There might be dangerous Koreans, more so than there are dangerous Japanese or Chinese people, but they're not trying to be ghetto. Their culture is sufficiently hot-blooded and macho that they can be tough without trying to be black.
Here's a question: a lot of the "Vietnamese Boat People" were actually Overseas Chinese capitalists being picked on by the Vietnamese Communists. After a generation in America, do they identify as Chinese or Vietnamese?
ReplyDelete"Vietnamese people tended to fall in-between. I once joked to a Vietnamese girl that Vietnamese people are Northeast Asians who happened to live in Southeast Asia."
ReplyDeleteViets are racially similarly to Southern Chinese. They are also of Confucian culture.
Filos, Cams, and Laotians are not.
"After a generation in America, do they identify as Chinese or Vietnamese?"
ReplyDeleteI dunno. But I've visited some Viet towns in America, and even if they're Chinese, they tend to see themselves as different from other Chinese.
yellow trash?
ReplyDeletegangnamsta culture
ReplyDeleteMaybe this is a bigger problem among Asian-Americans into small business. Parents run business 24/7 7 days a week. They 'sacrifice' for their kids, but the kids are left on their own so much that they don't study and goof off.
ReplyDeleteIn middle school, there was a kid from a family running a Chinese restaurant. The kids were no good. Last I heard, one ended up in jail for rape.
The Fast and Furious movies have included representatives of this demo starting with the first movie in the series, in 2001 (which, according to IMDB, was based on a magazine article by one Ken Li). The last few movies in the series have also been directed by an Asian (Justin Lin).
ReplyDeleteIf memory serves, in the first movie, there were sort of ethnic gangs: Vin Diesel's character was Italian, and I think everyone in his gang was nominally white. And the enemy gang was Asian.
Then, in the second movie, after Diesel asked for too much money, he was replaced with an unambiguously black actor, Tyrese Gibson, paired with blond co-star Paul Walker. So that was the beginning of multiracial togetherness in the F&F series. And it demonstrated to the producers they could make plenty of money without Diesel.
So in the 3rd installment, except for a brief cameo by Diesel, they ditched him and Walker. There was one white, fish-out-of-water protagonist and the whole movie was set in Japan.
The last movie in the series, Fast Five, demonstrated the true potential of interracial, multicultural harmony, as the gang ("family", as it's referred to by Diesel's character) now included a Japanese guy, an Israeli girl, an unambiguously black guy, an ambiguously gay Dominican couple, plus the blond Paul Walker, etc. And the bad guy was a white Brazilian drug dealer (played by a Portuguese actor).
All the movies are pretty entertaining though.
"After a generation in America, do they identify as Chinese or Vietnamese?"
ReplyDeleteI would say most identify as and associate with Vietnamese primarily. Language, food, culture. All Vietnamese know who's a Chinese-Vietnamese, but they don't seem to give too much thought to it. And there must have been a fair amount of intermixing, because it's not easy to tell them apart.
Friends/coworkers of mine who are descended from the Boat People tend to self-identify as Vietnamese, even though they will readily admit much Chinese ancestry, which is often apparent from name alone.
ReplyDeleteK-Town reality show...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rhDjxDLyjk
We have plenty of Asians near here (mainly Korean, but some Japanese and others), and they do tend to like cars a lot, but I don't know if there's an Asian street racing culture here. The F&F movies attract more of a Latino crowd locally, and the only time I remember an Asian kid getting in the news about something related to a car was when the first Sonic Drive-In opened nearby a few years ago on a busy highway.
ReplyDeleteAt first, the restaurant was so popular it had to hire off duty cops to direct traffic (then, once everyone got a taste of the food, the novelty wore off). Anyhow, an Asian kid tried to cut the line or something, and then he pealed out of there and hit one of the off-duty cops, breaking his leg.
"After a generation in America, do they identify as Chinese or Vietnamese?"
ReplyDeleteDo South African Boers still see themselves as Dutch?
Do French Cans see themselves more as Can or fren?
"K-Town reality show..."
ReplyDeleteWhat lowlife trash.
As they say with Korean-Americans: Yale or jail.
ReplyDeleteI live in Seoul, South Korea. It seems to me that like water culture tends to run down hill. The lower the IQ the Asian the more chance they will begin to take on black cultural characteristics.
ReplyDeleteGangnam refers to a wealthy area in Seoul it is similar to Beverly Hills. The song makes fun of the vapid materialistic lifestyle.
This is a theory, just a theory. Suppose we call it the Great Cultural/Historical Consciousness Theory.
ReplyDeleteAccording to this theory, it could be that SE Asians, Filos, Kors, and Viets are more at risk of going 'trashy' than Chinese and Japanese are.
Why? Chinese and Japanese are members of a Great Civilization whereas others are not. One might say Kors and Viets have a long history and one of some cohesive consciousness. But one cannot say they are great. Chinese culture is central to Asia, and Japanese did something very unique and fine with the influences it took from around the world. They are great peoples. As such, they can develop and maintain a Great Cultural Heritage/History Consciousness. A Chinese can derive great pride from his Chinese-ness. Same for a Japanese. And this goes for IN China/Japan and OUTSIDE China/Japan.
In contrast, Viets and Kors may be proud of being viet or kor in their own nations--one doesn't have to be great to love one's own nation--, but they don't have much to be proud to be of OUTSIDE Vietnam or Korea. Both are essentially imitation of Chinese culture--even if their language and national identities are separate. Vietnam is like extension of southern Japan, and Korea is like a more civilized Manchuria.
Thus, perhaps Chinese and Japanese outside their own nations still cling with pride and tenacity to their cultural consciousness whereas Viets and Kors outside their nations desperately try to fit into the majority culture of the new nation.
Maybe the same is true of Jews and Armenians. Jews are a Great People with a long proud history. So, even outside Israel, Jews are very Jewish in their pride and identity. Armenians do have a wonderful history and have been famous as middlemen in Central Asia, BUT they've never developed a culture that could be admired by the world as GREAT. So, they have less of a proud Armenian identity outside Armenia. Jews, being more proudly Jewish, have made much of their historical tragedy, the holocaust. Though Armenians have their own tragic history, they seem to be too silly and trashy--Kardashian-like--to develop a transcultural identity of pride and continuity.
Viets and Kors may be part of the Confucian culture but they cannot lay claim to Confucius or to Lao Tzu(of Taoism), both of whom were Chinese.
China is a real culture whereas viet and kor culture are imitation culture. They imitated china for 1000s of yrs, and in America, they wanna imitate America.
Japan didn't just imitate but create something even more remarkable of things they borrowed. So, while Japanese may not be ideologically unique, they are expressively and craftistically unique. And they also have samurai culture that is very unique.
What do viets have? rotten fish soy sauce. What do koreans have that is truly korean? kim chi and dog eating.
american prots are an interesting case. they are part of a proud tradition and intellectual culture, but protestantism's ultimate purpose seems to be a total purging of culture in favor of ideology and correctness. Protestantism initially sought to purify Christianity of the 'pagan' impurities that infested Catholicism. And white protestants seek to purify America of white national/cultural consciousness rooted in blood and soil than in purity of universal spirituality/morality.
They seek ideological purity through the totalism of 'anti-racist' ethnic diversity. Funny how the most puritanical people eventually came to supporting the most impuritanical social order.
When I lived in Hawaii, many years ago, there was a pretty clear stratification between Filipinos, Japanese, and ethnic Hawaiians. The Japanese were on the top and the Hawaiians were on the bottom. This was mostly Asian working-class culture; only the Japanese were lower-middle class. But Asian/Hawaiians were always "locals," and there was always a strong "local" culture that transcended Japanese, Filipino, etc.
ReplyDeleteI'd be interested in whether Portagees are part of this new "pan-Asian" culture. They're "locals" but not Asian.
TB22 is a Hmong gang in St. Paul. Not as stupid as other gangs but still dangerous low-lifes. Luckily we haven't run out of thirld-world "refuges" to keep things vibrant here.
ReplyDeleteWhat other culture is there for low iq proles to aspire to but the mtv hip hop culture
ReplyDelete"The wigger type behavior..."
ReplyDeleteThat made me look up yigger. Someone's already entered it into the Urban Dictionary.
It's a subculture of mostly Asian and Latino guys, most in their 20's, who are really into JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) and German cars, souping them up to the performance level of street-legal racecars. They heavily customize them by adding various accesories, paint jobs, chrome, performance wheels and tires, interiors, subwoofers, etc. They then show off their pride and joy to each other, but they rarely actually race against each other. But it's not a poor man's hobby by any means. I have a Korean friend who has a tricked-out Audi and shows it off to his other Asian friends with their tricked out BMW's and Lexus's. I think the phenomenon started about ten years ago as bored, young, pretty well-off Asian guys were trying to find some kind ofmasculine identity to overcome the nerdy Asian guy image. So the subculture exists only in heavily Asian areas like NorCal and SoCal.
ReplyDeleteHere's a question: a lot of the "Vietnamese Boat People" were actually Overseas Chinese capitalists being picked on by the Vietnamese Communists. After a generation in America, do they identify as Chinese or Vietnamese?
ReplyDeleteIt is amazing how few Americans understood the ethnic rivalries in Vietnam and that the boat people phenom had many aspects of a large scale ethnic cleansing of chinese. You'd be surprised at how many "Vietnamese" refugees in the U.S., at least ones from the boat people era, also have chinese names in addition to their Vietnamese one, can speak chinese, etc, despite being the 4th generation or so of their line in Vietnam.
25 comments and no "VTEC just kicked in yo!" joke.
ReplyDeleteSon, I am dissapoint.
"The main reasons that Asians have abandoned the Republicans is because of the fundamentalist Christianity at the heart of the GOP and Asians are becoming much less Christian."
ReplyDeleteNot around here, at least among the Koreans. More and more old Protestant churches have Korean writing on their signs now.
The New York Times Magazine ran one of those self-indulgent autobiographical essays on this demographic in 1997, teased on the cover as "Chinatown Homies," but Google tells me that the article, which I can't find online, was headlined, "I Was a Member of the Kung Fu Crew."
ReplyDeleteThe author, Henry Han Xi Lau, ended up going to Yale, and (thanks again Google) is now an attorney at Debevoise & Plimpton, which is probably the #4 or #5 New York law firm that any self-respecting tiger mother would want her son to work at, not quite Harvard but better than Penn.
So I guess at least some portion of this demographic just puts it on as an act before reverting to tiger child habits.
When I lived in Hawaii, many years ago, there was a pretty clear stratification between Filipinos, Japanese, and ethnic Hawaiians. The Japanese were on the top and the Hawaiians were on the bottom. This was mostly Asian working-class culture; only the Japanese were lower-middle class. But Asian/Hawaiians were always "locals," and there was always a strong "local" culture that transcended Japanese, Filipino, etc.
ReplyDeleteI'd be interested in whether Portagees are part of this new "pan-Asian" culture. They're "locals" but not Asian.
I'll second this, I also lived in Hawaii some years back. The primary division was between whites and sundry browns (asians/islanders) and there was a very strict hierarchy amongst the browns, with the Japanese-Americans at the top, although the Chinese had more dough (but less respectability).
This white/brown was about a 25%/75% split in the population and infused all sorts of political issues. Interestingly, the Japanese, who were around 20-25% of the population, were sort of the swing vote and would side w/the white folks on stuff.
This isn't surprising, since their lifestyles/values meshed the most.
But again, Japanese were at top of hierarchy and I had a lot of rep w/my military mates because I had a Japanese American girlfriend, rather than a Korean or Filipino, etc, which would have been a little downscale. FWIW, I was pretty controversial in my girlfriends family, only white guy coming to dinner, etc.
The bad boy culture did seem to be more confined to Hawaiians, assorted islanders like Tongans, Samoans, etc, and the bottom tiers of the asians - Filipinos. The Koreans ran all the sleaze bars, known as "K-Bars" for this reason, that were clip joints, prostitution rackets, etc.
You would meet the occasional Japanese American that had really descended into the sort of lower class mentality. Sometimes this was hard to see how deep this really went, because all sorts of people speak the pidgin, wear floppy clothes, etc, and but really aren't part of the subculture that some of this implies to folks from the mainland.
My years living in Hawaii were utterly fascinating studying all these human interactions between the groups.
Portuguese were sort of an odd case. Not really white people, in the classic Hawaiian sense of clueless outsiders. Sort of honorary brown people, I would say they would gain admittance/cred into some Hawaiian bad boy culture much easier than some other white people. I do remember that the Hawaiian equivalent of Polack jokes were Portuguese jokes.
There's nothing original about East Asians' appropriation of black American culture. East Asians are extremely status conscious. They will latch onto anything that has high status. And right now black American culture has high status among young people. Later on in life East Asians after they get their mate go back to typical East Asian behaviors.
ReplyDeleteIs there a name for this group?
ReplyDeletePeople call them "ricers" as a pan on what they too frequently pretend to be, "racers".
Ricers is hilarious. lol
ReplyDeleteGrowing up in California in the 70's I had two friends about my age who lived a few houses down the street who were pure blooded Hawaiians. I can distinctly remember how they deeply they resented the other Asian kids at my school who tried to pass themselves off as actual "Hawaiians". They were the real deal and they were quite aware how diluted their people and culture were becoming. They had a begrudging respect for the white kids who, like them, where comfortable in their own skin and felt pride in their culture. Of course this was in the 1970s when the words white and American were synonymous.
ReplyDeleteIn the San Francisco Bay Area we called them "fobs" - obviously a derivation of F.O.B. (fresh off the boat), but these kids were often born in the USA.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised that no one has mentioned this term yet - when I was in high school, it was common knowledge. Maybe it's a regional thing.
Also, they're not completely harmless - a group of fobs jumped a much smaller group of me and my (all-white) friends the night of high school graduation, and beat us around a bit. They were too small and skinny to cause any real damage, of course.
I first saw the Asian-American hip-hop/street racing/DJ subculture in the mid-80's amongst Japanese, Korean, and Filipinos in the Los Angeles area. We referred to them as "chiggers" and their cars "rice burners".
ReplyDelete"Here's a question: a lot of the "Vietnamese Boat People" were actually Overseas Chinese capitalists being picked on by the Vietnamese Communists. After a generation in America, do they identify as Chinese or Vietnamese?"
Most claim Chinese. Even many full-blooded Viets claim Chinese.
Regarding Hawaii, the Japanese may be the most visible in business and government, but everybody in Hawaii knows the Chinese own most of the property.
". I once joked to a Vietnamese girl that Vietnamese people are Northeast Asians who happened to live in Southeast Asia."
ReplyDeleteLet's hope Roissy doesn't bite your style, you can give seminars with that type of game, Mort Sahl.
"Steve Sailer said...
ReplyDeleteHere's a question: a lot of the "Vietnamese Boat People" were actually Overseas Chinese capitalists being picked on by the Vietnamese Communists. After a generation in America, do they identify as Chinese or Vietnamese?"
My experience is different than that of your other readers, however I must admit that I have only a few data-points. The one guy I know from Vietnam who is ethnically Chinese definitely identifies as Chinese as, I assume, do most of his extended family, who are now here. He sent his kids to an after-school school to learn chinese, not vietnamese. That said, he seems to retain a fondness for Vietnam, despite the fact that the commies imprisoned him in a reeducation camp for awhile. It was, afterall, the land of his childhood.
I have to add: he's a real salt-of-the-Earth stand-up guy, and I'm glad that he is now a fellow American.
"AR said...
ReplyDeleteIn the San Francisco Bay Area we called them "fobs" - obviously a derivation of F.O.B. (fresh off the boat), but these kids were often born in the USA."
I've heard the term F.O.T. applied to Mexicans - Fresh Out of the Trunk.
Asian-American
ReplyDeleteMr Sailer,
You can hyphenate all you want, but anyone who's seen the type knows there's nothing American about them.
They're sort of like Asian guidos.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_car_scene
ReplyDeleteand one of it's manifestations:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kollaboration.org/about/kollaboration
Woah, I got a shout-out.
ReplyDeleteContrary to what some may think, Japanese, Koreans and Chinese are a major component in the subculture. They generally have more money and skills for the upkeep. It takes either a lot of Mom and Dad's money, or a lot of automotive know-how to really get to the top of the status heap. Yes, they're generally not the ones their parents pin their hopes on, but here in Hawaii, as a mainland professor once said to me: "This is pretty much the only place in America where an Asian can be dumb and no one will give him crap for it." Trust me, there's plenty of left side of the Bell Curve Chinese, Japanese and Koreans. I have to interact with far too many of them.
Most folks are right about the stratification thing in Hawaii, though they rarely see how complex it is unless they were born and raised here. Castes within castes, permeable borders and impermeable, it's real racial kabuki dance sometimes!
As a related note, for example, Honolulu's Chinatown is mostly run and staffed by Vietnamese Chinese, who are mostly separate from the actual Chinese.
The Portuguese were sort of intermediaries between the Caucasian manager classes and the Asian labor, and often claimed whatever identity best suited them. Pure Portuguese under the age of 40 are vanishingly rare nowadays, as they had the highest intermarriage rate of any of the communities. Those that converted to Protestantism generally became haole, those that stayed Catholic generally married Asian, Hawaiian or Puerto Rican. Interesting note is that the pronunciation of many Portuguese surnames are anglicized in Hawaii. Frex, my last name is pronounced as if it rhymes with "homes".
It would take me forever to go into the nuances here, but I've had one too many bowls of kava already, suffice to say this: Hawaiians generally are towards the bottom of the heap (the bottom of the bottom are the Micronesians, who only SWPL "save the world" transplants like). At other times, they can have status near that of kamaa'ina haoles or of the high end Asians (Kamehameha graduates). Chinese are split between the FOBs and the ones who have been here forever. They essentially don't have any contact between each other and might as well be two separate ethnic groups. The Feds, the State and the various land trusts from the 1800s like the Bishop Estate own most of the land here, the Dems have a supermajority here and are essentially two factions with the Republicans acting as spoilers. Want to guess how those factions break down?
I'm starting to get enough Vietnamese students to get an idea of them separate from other SE Asians. I think it's correct to say that they seem intermediate between the other SE Asians, who tend to have a low work ethic (though still much better than SW Asia!) and the NE Asians who have a strong work ethic. This would make them fairly unremarkable by global upper-middle-class standards, competitive but not outstanding.
ReplyDeleteSeeing so many students (typically from the upper middle class) of so many different countries, I get a pretty good idea which nations are good immigration prospects economically, and which you would want to be wary about letting anyone in. Eg most whites are pretty good, including those from Latin America, but some Russians don't work reliably, so you need to be careful with them. Sub-Saharan Africa has a large well-educated and pretty hard-working upper-middle class; the women work hardest, but most of the men aren't bad either. Go north-east into Arab culture areas (Sudan, Saudi etc) and it gets really bad, though.
I just think of them as the "Gran Torino" Asians. Cripes, is there really a need for an official committee HBD classification for this? I guess they're like Azn chavs... As original commenter notes they are typically 1st or 2nd gen after FOBs who inexorably assimilate to prevailing underclass norms, as set by native blacks & their middle-aged gay patrons running the music industry.
ReplyDelete25 comments and no "VTEC just kicked in yo!" joke.
ReplyDeleteSon, I am dissapoint.
Its out of respect for victims of crazy university Chos. Actually seriously I have no idea what you're talking about
Anon 9:01 "Do French Cans see themselves more as Can or fren [sic]"--Were you seriously trying to respond to Sailer or just trolling this board?
ReplyDeleteYeah I knew some of these types back in Echo Park. Thai and Laotian and Cambodian, a few Filipino/as. I dunno, they seem to blend with wherever they find themselves. The ones I knew from the area, a few ran with the third-generation East LA Mexicans but most were sub-professional entry-level middle classers in training, the ones from South LA were practically cholas, the ones from the north OC valley girls, etc., etc.
ReplyDeleteThey just don't seem to have a powerful identity of their own in this land. Maybe the church, a bit - they seemed less committed to Christianity than the Mexicans, but more committed to Christendom, if that makes sense.
And at the same time compared to the A-List asians less "YOU'RE GOING TO UCLA THEN HARVARD MED SCHOOL", more "unless you're doing something else you might as well get your nursing degree at LACC. Part-time, so you can still look after your cousins."
Now that I think of it it was mostly the girls I knew. I don't know what the boys are doing. Selling used cars and car accessories, trying to work up to the big leagues selling new cars on Brand and Lankershim, I'd guess.
In the 80's in so cal they were known as SJs, for "super japanese." Despite the name the demo actually included some chinese, filipino, etc, too, but since the cool asians (and the cool car makers) at the time were japanese, they were front and center. Nisei week in little tokyo was their hajj.
ReplyDeletesubculture
ReplyDeleteIt would be appreciated if you could find another word to describe their activities -- i.e. one that does not contain the word culture.
Currently 55 comments on this crap, but only 39 for the post on that ridiculous ruling about affirmative action in Michigan.
So goes it.
Spike - Are Portuguese-Hawaiians mostly European ethnics or mixed-race Cap Verdeans? Btw, re pronunciation, the Cap Verdeans and Azoreans of southeastern Massachusetts also anglicize the pronunciation of their names. The pastor of the church I attended as a teenager, for example, was a Cap Verdean named Gomes with your pronunciation.
ReplyDeleteActually, they are becoming more christian in the states. One factor they might opposed Republicans is that the Republicians don't see their immirgation as important as hispanics and some Republicians want to end chain migration. Asians come thru chain even more than H1B's. The Vietnamise still support the Republicians because of communisim.
ReplyDeleteI remember being in a bar in Hong Kong in the late 1980s talking to some local Chinese, and they detested the Japanese. They found them arrogant and said that "they think they are white."
ReplyDeleteJapanese and Germans seem to line up pretty well. Smarter and more accomplished than their neighbors and often arrogant about it.
if this ridiculous echo chamber is sailer's source of info about the exotic peoples, it is no wonder that his theories are so far out of contact with reality and/or in mutual contradiction (citizenism vs. "sailer" strategy, etc.)
ReplyDeleteI have to compliment the commenters on this thread (and on several other threads). There's many a lead to a great novel or PhD thesis.
ReplyDeleteWith respect to the ethnic Chinese who are said to be prominent among the Vietnamese boat people: Were they especially prominent in the South Vietnamese government, or did they especially work with the American military?
Robert Hume
Rice rockets FTW!!! I dated a gorgeous Vietnamese girl who was into this culture. Sadly, she was killed on the back of a bike speeding down the 57 toward Anaheim. So, I hold a special place of hate in my heart for those idiots.
ReplyDeleteOh, and Gomes is absolutely right about the FOB/American split amongst the Chinese. It subsists in California and even here in my new home in the Northeast.
My Chinese-American girlfriend calls them "lesser Asians" (not joking)
ReplyDeleteJoseph
Chief Seattle said...
ReplyDeleteAll Vietnamese know who's a Chinese-Vietnamese, but they don't seem to give too much thought to it.
Something similar here in Thailand. The Thai-Chinese subgroup is the one that keeps the lights on and the economy whirring, and those people are well assimilated. The Thai prime minister is almost always an ethnic Chinese. The overseas Chinese are the stealth power (market-dominant minority) in much of SE Asia.
It's a subculture of mostly Asian and Latino guys, most in their 20's, who are really into JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) and German cars, souping them up to the performance level of street-legal racecars. They heavily customize them by adding various accesories, paint jobs, chrome, performance wheels and tires, interiors, subwoofers, etc. They then show off their pride and joy to each other, but they rarely actually race against each other. But it's not a poor man's hobby by any means. I have a Korean friend who has a tricked-out Audi and shows it off to his other Asian friends with their tricked out BMW's and Lexus's. I think the phenomenon started about ten years ago as bored, young, pretty well-off Asian guys were trying to find some kind ofmasculine identity to overcome the nerdy Asian guy image. So the subculture exists only in heavily Asian areas like NorCal and SoCal.
ReplyDeleteWhich then begs the Uber-Question: Are these yiggers what we would call Alphas or Betas or Gammas?
I.e. does a souped-up rice rocket make the Asian girls all wet between the legs?
Or - after a long Saturday night spent preening up and down Main Street - do these poor yiggers just go home, download some pr0n off the innertubes, and hit the hand like all the other betas and gammas?
Here on Long island there are many Indians that are into Hip-Hop/Fast & Furious culture. I know of several that own car customization shops. The people they hang out with are Asian (all types) other Indians and prole whites.
ReplyDeleteThe Portuguese were sort of intermediaries between the Caucasian manager classes and the Asian labor, and often claimed whatever identity best suited them. Pure Portuguese under the age of 40 are vanishingly rare nowadays, as they had the highest intermarriage rate of any of the communities. Those that converted to Protestantism generally became haole, those that stayed Catholic generally married Asian, Hawaiian or Puerto Rican. Interesting note is that the pronunciation of many Portuguese surnames are anglicized in Hawaii. Frex, my last name is pronounced as if it rhymes with "homes".
ReplyDeleteWhile once again intermarriage and assimilation has taken a toll on the sense of ethnic identity, the Portuguese in the Northeast have long had a sort of distinct intermediate status. The common stereotype was that of relatively unsophisticated people who were nonetheless industrious, law-abiding and hard-working, with little poverty and few social pathologies.* Not many had professional-level jobs though some did very well for themselves as small business owners. While white in a strictly biological sense, they had a sense of distinct identity otherwise found only among nonwhites.
* = to some extent, the mainlanders were a notch higher than the Azoreans and tended to look down on the latter a bit.
Not around here, at least among the Koreans. More and more old Protestant churches have Korean writing on their signs now.
ReplyDeleteI live in the same general part of the world as Dave in Hackensack, and the only fundamentalist family I know is Korean.
There is a left half to the Asian bell curve too. At least they aren't criminals.
ReplyDeleteI think people in America should actually go to Asia and realize its not all above average IQ striving immigrants. There are plenty of regular folks over there.
what is 'untold' about stone's history?
ReplyDeletethat's what i got from school and pbs.
"Gangnam refers to a wealthy area in Seoul it is similar to Beverly Hills. The song makes fun of the vapid materialistic lifestyle."
ReplyDeleteNo, it does not. If you understand Korean. The song has fun with it. Not makes fun of it.
Small, but important difference.
Tipping points depend on this difference.
Also Koreans are too new to money to have formed some intellectual/artistic consensus against it. They love money.
A Vietnamese family lives across the street from us. Their kids, a guy in his late teens, maybe early 20's, falls into this sub-culture. He and his friends like fast cars and like to hang out a lot. They affect some aspects of black ghetto culture (the clothes and music). But in other ways is not black ghetto like at all. Its a lot like the way young white guys acted during the mid 70's and is equally harmless.
ReplyDeleteI think this sub-culture is more South-east Asia (Thai, Cambodian, Laotian) than North-east Asian (Japanese, Chinese, Korean), although some Korean young kids are into it.
I grew up near a middle class black family whose genius teenage son with Aspergers syndrome wanted to hang with the local Asian street racers. His dad thought he was being clever by only letting his son use the family's old Volvo station wagon...until the kid tricked the car out with aftermarket parts, showed up, and kicked the Asians' asses. Weirdest thing I ever saw.
ReplyDeleteI dont know whose idea it was to import large numbers of "refugees" from dangerous ,unstable area controlled by violent seccesionists but thats how Canadians roll! --Dr van Nostrand
ReplyDeleteThis is actually an august old Canadian tradition, dating back to the Plains of Abraham.
Ex-sub officer/Spike Gomes,
ReplyDeleteInteresting comments. I grew up in Hawaii in the 80's in a Japanese-heavy environment.
Something like this subculture was already really heavy in the early 80's in Hawaii (maybe even earlier). I knew a bunch of local kids way into hip-hop/kraftwerk/rapping/tagging/popping battles (with the requisite black members' only jacket uniform). On the car side, lots of pimped out VW bugs and Karmen Ghias and such (I always assumed this was a SoCal cultural import for some reason, not as big in other parts of the country).
I moved from a white school in the heartland, so to speak, so I found all these Asian kids into black culture (coupled with pidgin, etc.) really bizarre and it added a lot to the culture shock I felt. Managed to make friends etc., with a hodgepodge of these kids/hapas/haolefied Asians/haolefied Portuguese/haoles. Pretty weird mix, looking back.
Always seemed to me that Filipinos were the bottom of the pecking order. The east Asians pretty much had open contempt for them (and it was often not undeserved). They probably did a bit for the Hawaiians too, secretly, but regarded them as noble and oppressed, and having soul, I guess you would say.
I've know some Filipinos on the mainland, all pretty to very much on the ball. Must be different types/regions of immigration involved.
As for the left half of the bell-curve, I agree with Spike Gomes. I have a very different view of Asians than most white mainlanders.
As Gomes indicates, really, really interesting place, sociologically.
What other culture is there for low iq proles to aspire to but the mtv hip hop culture
ReplyDeleteI think that captures a big part of it.
Also, I wonder how the phenomenon of cute Asian girls dating and marrying white boys in large numbers impacts the Asian beta male mind-set? Are they driven to "cool" car pimping stuff because they think it gives them street cred and more Alpha-vibe? And are Asian girls attracted to these tricked out cars? A pimped ride might also get the Asian boy attention from Latinas.
Cars have been a way to get chicks for as long as there have been cars.
"the Dems have a supermajority here and are essentially two factions with the Republicans acting as spoilers. "
ReplyDeleteIt's not so different on the mainland, in the urban areas. In places like Toledo, there's often an "A team" and a "B team" of Democrats.
In nearby Detroit, however, it's just the loudest, angriest, and most repugnant black guy that usually wins.
"95 IQ Asian-American youth culture"
ReplyDeleteHow do you know their IQ? I think you're letting this who IQ thing go to your head.
A comment I left here on iSteve four years ago on this subject ...
ReplyDelete"Is there a name for this group that seems to center around Filipinos and Vietnamese, plus the lower half of the bell curve among Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese? How pan-East Asian is it?"
ReplyDeleteNot yet, my vote is calling them Gran Torinos.
http://youtu.be/SJLbR9TEMD8?t=1m9s
The low iq asian males are driven to suicidal despair over white guys and hispanic guys snagging their females. Most low iq asian males are incel.
ReplyDeletethis is the import car culture, expressed in it's purest form by the hot import nights promotion which is a national tour. you can see what it's about by grabbing their magazines off the rack like import tuner and super street, or just googling their sites.
ReplyDeleteit is heavily southeast asian, yes, but there are definitely koreans and chinese in here. they get tattoos, listen to rap, go go dance, drift their cars, and have model meet and greets and bikini competitions.
culturally it's kind of like their version of ozzfest, but for the lower intelligence pan asian group. it's definitely national. it's NOT just california.
having observed this for 12 or 13 years, my guess is that southeast asians will never make important contributions to the US. they integrate downwards. in general, they are low class trash people like mexicans. the vietnamese are somewhere in between the southeast asians and east asians. they can go either way but it's a person by person thing.
It would help if you supplied a link. I looked at Razib's blog and couldn't find the discussion where this would be relevant.
ReplyDeletechiggaz be da bomb.
ReplyDeleteChan Korinos
ReplyDelete"Of course there are Asians that fit this profile...not every Asian is born with a super-high IQ."
ReplyDeleteIn terms of cultural consumption, even high IQ people are more into sports, pop culture, and TV than into literature and classical music.
A rough East-West analogy, ethnically speaking:
ReplyDeleteIf Korea = Denmark (within NE Asians, the Koreans are often deemed to be much more “brutal”, temper-wise)
then
Japan=Scandinavia + Iceland. Or alternatively, the UK.
China= Germany + France + Spain + Italy+ Switzerland+ Austria +Poland + Greece... the one-party EU actually, plus the Baltic and more…
Vietnam = Romania? (Some Southern Chinese historical admixtures mainly remain in parts of Northern Vietnam only, culturally “East Asian” though)
Laos, Cambodia = Bulgaria?
Philippines = as “European”as Albania
India = as “Asian” as Morocco, albeit an enlarged one.
...
So, how pan-East Asian are they??
Chua's younger daughter is actually into trash culture.
ReplyDeleteIm just curious.Whats all this talk about Portuguese not being white?
ReplyDeleteOr are we talking about the "Portuguese" the way we talk about "Hispanic" i.e not as the European stock but a linguistic group comprising mostly of swarthier indio and mulatto lots?
I know they say that Europe ends at the Pyrnees and that many Spaniards can be darker than say Pakistanis or North Indians but cmon if they are European -dont they get the white access card?
Ditto for the darker Greeks and Sicilians.
Somewhat OT: From anecdotal observations via travel I noticed quite a few blonde and blue eyed types in Jordan,Syria,Turkey and Northern IRaq(Kurds mostly). And they are much fairer than the Southern Europeans ,where do they stand on the whitness scale seeing how they Muslim Middle Easterners?
Its not just the West coast, it just seems that way as more Asians are there. There's plenty of it going on here on the outskirts of DC, as my home near the highway can attest to at night.
ReplyDeleteTodor's right. I got to see the tacky Korean bespoilered-riceburner culture for the first time in a MD high school. And it my case it was all Koreans.
I'm glad to see commenters here who understand Hawaii a lot better than I do. One of my impressions was that ethnicity is often a proxy for social class there, even more so than on the mainland. I was treated a lot better by locals when they thought that I was working class. (I'm not - my background is lower-middle class.) Was this just my experience, or is that generally true of the Hawaiian Islands?
ReplyDeleteI think that ethnicity as a proxy for social class, especially as the relative influence of class has allegedly strengthened over the last ten years, is one of the great uncovered stories of the race-realist blogosphere.
after a long Saturday night spent preening up and down Main Street
ReplyDeleteOops - my bad - "after a long Saturday night spent preening up and down El Camino Real"
These yiggers must have sisters & girlfriends;what are the sexual habits of the yiggette? Open to being poached?
ReplyDeleteIn the Chicago suburbs, there's a similar Arab wigger subculture. They wear baggy pants, listen to rap, like to wear bling, are obsessed with their cars, etc. They occasionally get into fights or deal drugs at a low level, but don't cause too much trouble. Most of them grow out of it.
ReplyDeleteThe phenomenon definitely exists on the West Coast, and not just Hawaii.
ReplyDeleteI don't see what the big deal about it is though. Asians who aren't going the doctor/lawyer/engineer route need a way to pick up chicks, so these non-elite Asians appropriate some of the "peacocking" techniques of black urban youth to attract chicks. No biggie.
Get tons of these types in the Army. You're right: generally harmless, though at times grating, but sometimes fun guys. Lots of H'Mong, Pinoy, Chamoro (Guam), Vietnamese, and the odd 2nd or 3rd gen Korean (often hybridized w/ white) in the mix. Don't recall Chinese or Japanese among them much.
ReplyDeleteCommon theme I noticed among them: resentment towards black and white dudes for snagging up "their" best-looking chicks.
until the kid tricked the car out with aftermarket parts, showed up, and kicked the Asians' asses.
ReplyDeleteIf this story is actually true, one must consider that in a lot of cases the tricked out Asian cars have at most a body kit, a nice paint job and some stickers. See:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=type%20r
'Arab wigger subculture'
ReplyDeletearap
One thing I don't quite understand is where the left-end-of-the-Bell Curve Asians find work. While there are plenty of Asians doing low-end work in places like cheap takeout restaurants and 99-cent stores, for the most part they seem to be first generation immigrants who don't speak English well. But what if you're, say, a third generation Chinese- or Korean-American who speaks only English, and you dropped out of high school at 16? Where do you work? At least here in the Northeast it's very uncommon to see a non-teenaged Asian working in fast food or low-end retail or unskilled labor.
ReplyDeleteIm just curious.Whats all this talk about Portuguese not being white?
ReplyDeleteOr are we talking about the "Portuguese" the way we talk about "Hispanic" i.e not as the European stock but a linguistic group comprising mostly of swarthier indio and mulatto lots?
As I noted in an earlier comment, at least in the Northeastern U.S. the Portuguese were a distinct ethnic group with a strong sense of group identity. Even though they were physically white, they somehow seemed a breed apart - not unlike Jews.
Today many of the people in the Northeast who identify as "Portuguese," especially in Newark's and Boston's big Portuguese communities, are Brazilians or Cape Verdeans and actually are mulatto.
I've witnessed a very similar type of culture here in Canada - mostly among Filipinos and Sri Lankan Tamils. This culture is often subtly influenced by hip hop culture. In speech, for example, the word 'yo' is bandied about often.
ReplyDeleteChinese youth rarily seem to act this way. I do recall seeing a Chinese guy rapping on the bus with his black friends recently though.
".... But what if you're, say, a third generation Chinese- or Korean-American who speaks only English, and you dropped out of high school at 16? Where do you work? ...."
ReplyDeleteEven the mildly retarded can graduate high school, if they are otherwise conscientious and have soft-social skills: i.e.: show up for classes, don't shoot anyone, do your drugs outside of school grounds. Most stupid Asians graduate high school.
What do they do? Well, I am Asian-American and my not-so-bright cousins include, off the top of my head, a policeman, an assistant in an accountant's office, a social-work type working for the city, a plant mechanic in a humongous hospital, and a cable-guy.
"One thing I don't quite understand is where the left-end-of-the-Bell Curve Asians find work."
ReplyDeleteMany that fit this demographic that I've seen, seem to work in their family business or start their own small businesses that require little start-up capital (eg. cell phone stores, online sales, etc.)
"But what if you're, say, a third generation Chinese- or Korean-American who speaks only English, and you dropped out of high school at 16?"
Can't speak for SE Asians, but I think E Asians, even the left of the curve, mostly graduates from high school (high school isn't what it used to be) and at least attempt college (local state or junior college).
Hey, cool to read about my adolescence here, lol. The hip hop / b-boy thing includes pretty much all races, but the souped-up car, gamer and thing is mostly East Asian kids.
ReplyDeleteThe kids who were most into rap culture in my (east coast) high school were Korean, followed by Chinese and Filipino kids. I'm Chinese and I was sort of into it.
Asian kids growing up in the inner city cultures generally aren't delinquent. Contrary to your belief Steve, their parents are the same as other Asian parents (Tiger Mom).
Most Asian kids into rap and tattoos grow up to be regular adults. They go into nursing, accounting, computer science, teaching, and there are more Asian cops these days.
Asian kids who don't go to college tend to go into stuff like CNA/HHA, paramedics, med/lab tech, as well as real estate. Some of my friends (East and South Asian) and family work in retail, so it's not like we don't exist in that sector at all.
Im just curious.Whats all this talk about Portuguese not being white?
ReplyDeleteOr are we talking about the "Portuguese" the way we talk about "Hispanic" i.e not as the European stock but a linguistic group comprising mostly of swarthier indio and mulatto lots?"
Yes, Dr. VanNostrand, I agree. Too many commenters here are viewing the world through limited, and even -- tacky -- sun glasses.
The Portuguese in Portugal are about as European as other Europeans, which is to say, almost entirely. I just can't get all nazi and one-dropper on this subject. They are European, have had a profound part in European history and culture, and for the most part look white. You don't get many blonds but brown hair and light eyes are pretty common. The little kids are often blondish.
I think some people mix up Portugese with the peope of Cape Verde. They are definitely mixed, and look it. That said, I did notice more "Arab" looking people in Portugal than in Spain; maybe some in southern Italy. But in Portugal, more common.
robert61:
ReplyDeleteMostly Madeiran and Azorean, which is sort of an intermediary between the Cap Verdean and mainlanders. There were a minority of mainland Portuguese and Spanish that came around the time period, but the Macaronesian aspect predominates.
The Game Theorist: The kind of chicks that go with these guys aren't the ones being poached by herby white dudes. They're more in danger of being poached by stylish and sharp prole whites, Latinos and Blacks. Also these "Chan Torinos" (love that name, it fits so much better than ricer) are often really really into Game. You've got to remember, stupid is relative. They're not bright enough to get the medical or engineering degree, but they're not really sub-literate either. They know that they gotta aftermarket their social skills as much as their car. Granted, they tend to drift towards Mystery more than Roissy.
Anonymous:
Yeah, the Filipinos were the bottom of the social heap for decades, though they've been replaced by other Pacific Islanders in the late 80s and Micronesians in the 2000s (no one, other than haoles who don't have to deal with them, likes Micronesians). The difference between Filipinos in Hawaii and those in the mainland is that Hawaii received mostly rural Illocano and Bisayan peasants for sugar plantation work, whereas those who went to the mainland were far more often urbanized Tagalog. Same with Japanese in Hawaii to a certain extent. The mainland got the bright and adventurous self-starters whereas Hawaii got the Yamaguchi, Kumamoto and Okinawan farmers, which is why we have some Japanese among our "Chan Torinos" (and to a lesser extent the "Jawaiian" culture which is pretty much Hawaii specific). The Filipino side of my family always liked to declare the fact that they were Tagalog from Manila proper who never ever worked on the plantations (yet I didn't find out till I was a teenager that we were mestizo de chino, cause apparently that's not a good thing in the Philippines).
Peter:
These guys usually grow up a bit as they hit their late 20s. Like I said before, dumb is relative. The majority of them have enough brains to complete an auto mechanic's trade course or memorize a salesman's routine and inventory knowledge if they're male, or become a dental hygienist or receptionist if they're female. The few that are too stupid for even that... well, they become wards of their families and usually live comfortable, if lonely lives.
The Game Theorist: The kind of chicks that go with these guys aren't the ones being poached by herby white dudes. They're more in danger of being poached by stylish and sharp prole whites, Latinos and Blacks. Also these "Chan Torinos" (love that name, it fits so much better than ricer) are often really really into Game. You've got to remember, stupid is relative. They're not bright enough to get the medical or engineering degree, but they're not really sub-literate either. They know that they gotta aftermarket their social skills as much as their car. Granted, they tend to drift towards Mystery more than Roissy.
ReplyDeleteSo they're getting laid on Saturday night?
the ones who are too dumb to even become blue collar technician types end up working in the family restaurant, at walmart, or in drug stores. from what i've seen anyway. food industry and retail is where they fall to, like the dumbest people in any city.
ReplyDeleteThe Game Theorist:
ReplyDeleteMore often than their better educated brethren, from my experience. They tend to be a lot more confident and secure with who they are than the "bananas" who tend to be "cuddle and compliment" friendzone of doom types. The chicks who go out with them are also less likely to be nuts or ball-busters, like those who date mostly white SWPLs.
"the ones who are too dumb to even become blue collar technician types end up working in the family restaurant, at walmart, or in drug stores. from what i've seen anyway. food industry and retail is where they fall to, like the dumbest people in any city."
ReplyDeleteYou are missing the point. The left-curve 2nd and 3rd generation east-Asians aren't working at low-level jobs. I don't see them at Walmart, or at retail, or fast food.
I don't see them begging on the streets either. So, adult Asian-Americans without an MD are somehow making a living. What are they doing?
"One thing I don't quite understand is where the left-end-of-the-Bell Curve Asians find work."
ReplyDeleteAt least here in NYC they often become mail carriers. Lots and lots of East Asian mail carriers and post office staff here.
The left-curve 2nd and 3rd generation east-Asians aren't working at low-level jobs. I don't see them at Walmart, or at retail, or fast food.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you live? Perhaps there aren't many Asians.
"A rough East-West analogy, ethnically speaking:"
ReplyDeleteI'm not Asian, so I could be wrong about a lot of this, but it's a fun game to play.
Japanese - English. "This fortress built by nature for herself/ Against infection and the hand of war." Also understated eccentricity.
Russians - somewhere between Mongols and Koreans. I'm saying this because Russians are definitely more macho than the great mass of Europeans. Belarus is of course North Korea - the last, provincial redoubt of resistance against these times, a refuge of an older world.
Overseas Chinese - Jews and Armenians. That's an easy one. And by that logic southern China is the Levant, maybe with Turkey and Armenia thrown in, while SE Asia is north Africa and Latin America. In particular the Philippines are Mexico and Indonesia is the Maghreb. In some senses Singapore is Israel.
Northern China is more difficult to pigeon-hole than others. In one sense it's like Greece, the ancient origin of high civilization. In another it's like the Roman Empire if it had survived to our days. There aren't enough parallels with Germany, so I'd say there are no good comparisons here.
As I noted in an earlier comment, at least in the Northeastern U.S. the Portuguese were a distinct ethnic group with a strong sense of group identity. Even though they were physically white, they somehow seemed a breed apart - not unlike Jews.
ReplyDeletePeter, was this characteristic different from other white ethnics like Italians or Irish in the Northeast?
As I noted in an earlier comment, at least in the Northeastern U.S. the Portuguese were a distinct ethnic group with a strong sense of group identity. Even though they were physically white, they somehow seemed a breed apart - not unlike Jews.
ReplyDeletePeter, was this characteristic different from other white ethnics like Italians or Irish in the Northeast?
Possibly not, except that in the case of the Italians and Irish there has been pretty much full assimilation for at least the past few generations. The Portuguese, however, were still a distinct group as recently as 20 or 25 years ago.
asdf - there is a criminal element among the Vietnamese. They tend to run to car theft and running chop shops. It's more skilled work than selling drugs or mugging little old ladies. In the neighborhoods of Oakland where I lived, you were mostly physically safe if you didn't buy or sell drugs, but your car wasn't, particularly if it's an Acura. One neighborhood I lived in was where stolen cars turned up, and it was the local Vietnamese kids (teens to 20somethings) who were handling them.
ReplyDeleteRice boys. It's in urban dictionary, and there are web sites on rice boy cars, etc.
ReplyDeleteGilbert P.
What is the dating dynamic of Asian chicks out West in Cali? Here in Chicago they mostly stick to their own kind and if not, date white guys. Cali doesn't have a lot of white dudes in the right age groups but does have a lot of blacks and latinos. Do Asian chicks date those demographics?
ReplyDeletePortuguese have a higher proportion of African ancestry, presuambly due to assimilation of slaves, than other Europeans per DNA analysis that I've seen.
ReplyDelete"What do they do? Well, I am Asian-American and my not-so-bright cousins include, off the top of my head, a policeman, an assistant in an accountant's office, a social-work type working for the city, a plant mechanic in a humongous hospital, and a cable-guy."
ReplyDeleteIn short, they were functioning members of society doing jobs that actually are useful. Goes to show that you don't need a 110 IQ to be useful.
It is interesting how subcultures develop among the less-successful members of society. I'd actually argue nerd culture is a white/Asian/Jewish subculture for people with IQs of 110-130 or so with bad social skills; I doubt the guys who ran Google went to many science fiction conventions.
What is the dating dynamic of Asian chicks out West in Cali?
ReplyDeleteI dunno, bet get a load of the Chicom Princess at Harvard.
Chick is flat-out gorgeous.
[Apparently her Mom was a Chinese pop-singer.]
If I were in Cambridge right now, I'd be all over it.
http://www.frankdikotter.com/publications/the_myth_of_opium.pdf
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1044339/pdf/medhist00013-0125.pdf
ReplyDeleteFrank Dikotter, Imperfect conceptions:
medical knowledge, birth defects, and
eugenics in China, London, C Hurst, 1998,
pp. x, 226, illus., £25.00 (1-85065-331-3).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Dik%C3%B6tter
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/nov/22/china-worse-you-ever-imagined/
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete“I'm not Asian, so I could be wrong about a lot of this, but it's a fun game to play.
… ”
I ‘m afraid that you might be wrong on some here:
Japan = England : both have Island Mentality ; both are an offshoot of a mainland race - English: majority Anglo Saxon + varieties of local (Celts etc) mix. Japanese= majority 26% Han Chinese +25% Korean at Y-chromosome level + varieties of local mix. English language being an offshoot of German is just like Japanese language (mainly Hanji) being an offshoot of Chinese. England was the first to be industrialised in Western Europe, while Japan was the first in NE Asia. The difference is that the English made it to a global Empire while Japan tried during WWI & II and failed.
Nonetheless, Japan almost completely copied English industrial revolution just like it copied Tang China’s culture and technologies almost in its entirety. Most “traditional Japanese things” are in fact “traditional Chinese” with or without a twist, mostly from Tang China in origin, ranging from Japanese swords, Ninja, Samurai, Sushi, Kimono/hairstyle/clothing, board game of “Go”, Bonsai, Gardening…the list goes on… so much so that ironically if one wants to see what traditional Tang China and Han Chinese were look like or dress like, one of closest things one can get is NOT to watch Jackie Chan’s Shanghai Noon ( which in Manchu, not Han Chinese), but to watch Tom Cruise’s The Last Samurai (of Japan).
Another misnomer of conventional wisdom is that Japan has long been the strongest amongst NE Asia 3 - wrong by a wide margin. It’s China, followed by Korea. Japan only made it to the top very recently (since the end of 19th century), just because Japan was the weakest link within China-Korea-Japan trio hence was the first to be conquered by the West (e.g. Americans merchants in the 19th century). Ironically that’s why Japan was the first to industrialise, and became the strongest technologically up to now.
China mainland = ancient Greek-Roman Empire, and equivalent to the modern EU albeit a Communist one. Had Alexander de Great been greater enough, Europe today (from Portugal to Sweden to France to Germany to Greece to Ukraine) would have looked almost exactly like China… Oke, the late comer is Frau Merkel.
Contrary to the conventional wisdom, though, China in fact shares huge array of similarity with Germany: both have mainland imperial mentality in sharp contrast to Japan/England pair. Both are dominant, culturally and economically, in its own corner of the world (China would be more so given time, after it fully industrialises). Germanic race is the most numerous in Western Europe like what Han Chinese is in NE Asia. Both are high IQ highly nationalistic people…etc.
“North-South Chinese divide” has been greatly exaggerated. Most “Southern” Chinese are in fact Northern Chinese due to countless mass migrations from the north in entire history of China. The genes of indigenous southern tribes assimilated in the process are becoming tiny except in pockets of the deep south… majority Southern Chinese are almost the same from the Northern counterparts -- by and large homogenous which can be testified by IQ or PISA scores -- except perhaps some differences on average body height and minor facial traits between the deep North and deep South..
"Portuguese have a higher proportion of African ancestry, presuambly due to assimilation of slaves, than other Europeans per DNA analysis that I've seen."
ReplyDeleteLike I said, I'm not a one-dropper. Their average IQ is within the white norm, the great majority look white, they are a European country with a long European history.
I am always a little skeptical. About 10 years ago, there was a big push to see ancient Greeks as somehow connected with sub-Saharan Africans, with no logical reason to do so. We have ample illustrations on vases and in sculpture, not to mention actual human remains, that tell us what ancient Greeks were, and sub-Saharan African makes little appearance. There is nothing about the philosophy or theoretical science, or grey-eyed Athena (whom one author turns into a black African for some unfathomable reason), that evokes "black African" in the mind of anybody who knows anthing about black Africa. Yet, some "historians" insist that black Africa must have had an input into the glory that was ancient Greece, because, well, PC religion insists that blacks must have been involved in the development of higher math. Go figure. Pls leave ancient Egyptians out of it -- they were not sub-Saharan Africans.
Anyway, it turns out the genetics that were cited were put out by an obscure Spanish scientist no one can find much out about, and are quite incorrect. The amount of sub-Saharan genes in ancient Greece was practically nil.
Now Portugal is another case, the Portuguese being the first large scale slavers of blacks, among Europeans.
My personal take on the Greek case is that there is a push to elevating non-whites--particularly blacks, because they most need the elevation--into credible participants in modern civilization. Since they are not currently contributing much of a positive nature, then let's invent ancient clouds of glory for them.
No matter how irrelevant blacks would have been to places like ancient China or Great Britain, this determination to include blacks in everything, whether they were there or not, puts them there. Because PC religion demands it. There's a reason they featured the so-called black Pharoes, who were a few generations of Nubians who ruled Egypt in the early A.D. era, during the Obama campaign.
Someday I'd really like to know who's behind the curtains, pulling the switches like some snickering Wizard of Oz.
Four distinct, non-WASP ethnic groups were common in late 19th century New England: The Irish, the French, the Italians and the Portuguese. The Irish had the leg up in moving into the political and religious sphere, being conversant in the language, and with a certain flair at that. Irish pols kept the acquired political spoils to themselves, marginalizing the other "ethnics"; these groups were more insular because of it.
ReplyDeleteThe majority of Portuguese people in Southeastern Massachusetts and Rhode Island self-identify as Azorean as opposed to Portuguese, partly as sectional pride and partly to differentiate themselves from the more criminally-active Cape Verdean and Brazilian populations. Like with the various Hispanics, the average historically and geographically retarded American doesn't bother to differentiate the native Lusophones from the colonials.
People self-identifying as Portuguese would tend to be a much broader spectrum of shades than most; a few hundred years as part of the Caliaphate and and a few hundred years of being the first white guys to show up in so many places will create a lot of local "color".
Lowell, MA is about 30% Cambodian, pretty much the same percentage as its Hispanic population. Their tuner cultures are indistinguishable.
"Portuguese have a higher proportion of African ancestry"
ReplyDeleteIn those studies, African admixture is not uniformly distributed throughout the country but is more prevalent in southern Portugal.
Are Portagees yet another counter-example to Sailer's theory of why some groups remain outsiders and others don't, which he discussed a few posts back? Or do Portagees get government benefits as a group?
ReplyDeleteAlso, look at the corresponding national mentalities at subconscious level: the colours of national flags:
ReplyDeleteJapan/England pair: red + white.
China/Germany pair: red+ yellow.
To me, colour red reflects imperialistic mindset, white reflects offshoot, yellow reflects mainland/mainstream earth-like core.
They almost always fit right in. e.g.
Turkey (big red+white, hmmm Ottoman Spain ( red+ yellow - Spanish empire),
Morocco(red! Errr…. “Allah rules all”?),
Vietnam ( big red + tiny yellow : a small “China” in SE Asia-wannabe ),
Scotland( blue, plus white: sorry, Scots, no Free Scotland :),
Argentina ( light blue+white : no wonder couldn’t take Falklands/Malvinas from the Brits),
Korea (small red+ small blue + white: of course)
Mexico ( green + white, + red! : so, iSteve alarm makes sense after all! lol)
USA (plenty of red + blue, + plenty of white : surprise to anyone?)
India ( green+ white+ orange : superpower? my foot)
Greece (blue+white : Frau Merkel will get her way in the end?)
Since street race car- macho type Asians are mostly likely imperialistic alpha-wannabes subconsciously(agree?), guess what, they got to be Vietnamese mainly according to colours! LOL.
England was the first to be industrialised in Western Europe, while Japan was the first in NE Asia. The difference is that the English made it to a global Empire while Japan tried during WWI & II and failed.
ReplyDeleteWhich was the first to "be industrialized" in the world? I know you're trying to shape the language to fit your point, and go on to correct, but I gotta say I love the construction there; was Newton the "first to be Calculused"?
China mainland = ancient Greek-Roman Empire, and equivalent to the modern EU albeit a Communist one. Had Alexander de Great been greater enough, Europe today (from Portugal to Sweden to France to Germany to Greece to Ukraine) would have looked almost exactly like China… Oke, the late comer is Frau Merkel.
Sorry, I think that's bunk. East Asia being unified under the single national banner of China vs. Europe being a patchwork of many nations is hell and gone from being down to one guy, or just a little short of anything. These facts reflect the profound difference in yellow and white behavioral genetics IMO. It's hard to imagine anyone holding Europe together as a single nation for five minutes, let alone thousands of years.
Chicom princess, Xi Mingze, had extensive plastic surgery. Whenever someone points to an "attractive" East Asian you can almost guarantee that East Asian had plastic surgery.
ReplyDeleteThanks anonymous, for providing those Frank Dikotter links. China and the Myth of the Opium Plague is the first source I've seen to counter common thinking in the Chinese opium trade.
More often than their better educated brethren, from my experience. They tend to be a lot more confident and secure with who they are than the "bananas" who tend to be "cuddle and compliment" friendzone of doom types. The chicks who go out with them are also less likely to be nuts or ball-busters, like those who date mostly white SWPLs.
ReplyDeleteSG - thanks.
I was curious because it's hard to think of anything more hopelessly pathetic than a beta or a gamma working all week as a grease monkey, pimping up his ride, then washing it and waxing it on Saturday morning and Saturday afternoon until it sparkles like a diamond, then showering and shaving and throwing on some Brylcreem and some aftershave, then jumping in his ride, preening up and down El Camino Real for five or six hours in an attempt to impress the ladies, but then, after all that strutting, still going home empty-handed.
Any dude who puts in that much effort pretty much deserves to get laid.
[I]Which was the first to "be industrialized" in the world? I know you're trying to shape the language to fit your point, and go on to correct, but I gotta say I love the construction there; was Newton the "first to be Calculused"? [/I]
ReplyDeleteNooooooooooo… Newton was the first to be grativitised, well, at least according to euro supremacists.
[I] These facts reflect the profound difference in yellow and white behavioral genetics IMO. It's hard to imagine anyone holding Europe together as a single nation for five minutes, let alone thousands of years.[/I]
That said, I love “behavioral genetics” even more. It reminds us once again that imagination plays a big part in “mental genetics” they say. :)
cat father
ReplyDelete"China in fact shares huge array of similarity with Germany"
ReplyDeleteuh huh
become members of triads?
ReplyDeleteDing find ding ding ding! We have a winner!
DeleteThe Chinese gang members in New York City (used to) shake down the business owners on a weekly basis. Then, once trust in the police was built up (and police officers began to patrol Chinatown), the gangs would tail the business owners to their homes and rob them (because the owners didn't trust banks...)
Anonymous said “uh huh” ----
ReplyDeleteSo? What’s your point? If you only compare the surface of the two under 2 total different systems (capitalist democratic industrialised Germany vs. communist industrialising China at their different stages of development), then you’ve missed the entire point of the exercise.
In your logic, perhaps you could also “uh huh” this: Computer mother boards or mountain bikes Made-in-Taiwan (Republic of China) vs. radio boxes or “das auto” Made-in East Germany in the 90’s.
"English language being an offshoot of German is just like Japanese language (mainly Hanji) being an offshoot of Chinese." - Anonymous
ReplyDeleteJapanese isn't an offshoot of Chinese at all: yes, it uses a lot of Chinese-derived vocabulary, so it's relationship with Chinese is like English's relationship with Norman French or Latin. But Japanese isn't an offshoot of any known language that's spoken today. It and Korean had a common ancestor in eastern Siberia thousands of years ago, which is why their grammar structures are similar, but both are totally different from any Chinese dialect.
Chinese students take Japanese thinking it will be easy because of the kanji, and they are always surprised when they find out how difficult it is. Koreans grasp Japanese pretty easily though.
Anonymous said... "Japanese isn't an offshoot of Chinese at all..."
ReplyDeleteYour logic is so very wrong, I'm afraid. You told a tree and missed the entire woods right behind it.
My door is made of wood. Your door is made of exactly the SAME wood just with some paint at the door handle, or perhaps you’re used to putting your door horizontally sometimes... That doesn’t make your door made of iron all of sudden.
Modern English is quite different from both German and Dutch in standard grammar, and most of the words even. Does that make English not being an offshoot, a bit further off one though, of German nonetheless?
The relationship between Japanese and Chinese is 100X closer, to be conservative here, than that of English to German!
It is because it’s NOT that “Japanese uses a lots of Chinese –derived words” as you put it. Instead, it is that “Japanese uses most Chinese words themselves”, LOL, so much so that if rid off all the Chinese words (Hanji) in Japanese (that means most of verbs, nouns, adj, adv, etc that constitute perhaps >95% of concrete meanings of Japanese), there would be no “Japanese” any more. Under either case, what’re different pronunciations and grammar for?
Japanes is not an offshoot of Chinese, but Chinese (!) with different pronunciations and grammar!
BTW, as you mentioned Korean, are you aware that about 90% of entire Korean history is written as default in classic Chinese by Korean historians?
The Portuguese in central California have annual parades through the main streets of at least Monterey and Santa Cruz with the girls all dressed up in huge white wedding gown things with long gowns and gown bearers, more ornate than wedding gowns. Really something to see.
ReplyDeleteMany of the Portuguese at these things look "whiter" than the typical American white, lots of blondish folks. Of course these days there's always the bottle... but even so, they look indistinguishable generic western european. (Different than some of the "portagees" communities on the east coast, I guess there are many different Portuguese groups, given their world-wide history.)
I think many of these folks have been here in California maybe about as long as any whites.
This parade has always been striking, because it such a white ethnic group thing. I've never seen the like of it by any other white group.
http://talesfromthecoast.blogspot.com/2012/07/what-if-you-gave-parade-and-nobody-came.html
(I think the photographer was trying to find unattractive "PC" shots.) You just don't see this much any more:
... throngs of teenage girls dressed as Elizabeth of Aragon...
"(I think the photographer was trying to find unattractive "PC" shots.) You just don't see this much any more:"
ReplyDeleteAs the blogger, let me assure you that "PC" was not what I had in mind. Just showing you my people as I know them: loud, boisterous, a little disorganized, and good.
There are actually Holy Ghost festas and parades all over California; but some of the best are in places that are farther from the bright lights, like the old farm towns of the Central Valley.