June 20, 2009

"The Persian Conquest"

With Iran much in the news, it's interesting to take a look at the most influential Iranian community in the U.S.:
The Persian Conquest
Kevin West
W

While the Persian Jews of Beverly Hills certainly make (and spend) lots of money, it's not clear if the Oriental Jews of Beverly Hills will follow their Ashkenazi Jewish predecessors into more intellectual pursuits.

I don't know whether Beverly Hills High School's SAT scores were actually the highest among public schools in Los Angeles County back before the Persians arrived, but, having spent a lot of time competing in debate with Beverly Hills students (my debate coach at Notre Dame H.S. in Sherman Oaks in the San Fernando Valley was married to the BHHS debate coach), I certainly would have guessed that was true.

Yet, in 2004-2005, Beverly Hills High School was only 9th among Los Angeles County public schools in percent of students scoring at least 1000 on the Math+Verbal parts of the SAT. The top two schools only allowed in students by examination, but BHHS was still merely seventh among neighborhood schools at 62 percent above 1000 (which is easier since "recentering" in 1995) versus 89 percent at San Marino and 80 percent at La Canada, two sedate old money / new Asian satellites of Pasadena. Even Arcadia, a quite modest-looking suburb in the flatlands of the San Gabriel Valley (where my cousins grew up) d0es better than Beverly Hills these days.

The influx since then of ultra-ambitious affluent Chinese and Koreans into the San Gabriel Valley has propelled its schools up the list, but I wonder whether the Persian influx into Beverly Hills has had a negative effect on BHHS's standing?

I do recall when the Iranians in LA first made themselves prominent: in 1978-1981's huge demonstrations in front of the Federal Building in Westwood. With LAPD mounted cops keeping the Iranians separated from each other, on one street corner would be a big mob denouncing the Shah, on another corner would be a big mob denouncing the Ayatollah, and occasionally on a third corner would be a small mob with the good taste to denounce both of them.

My mother noticed the Iranian influx before I did, about 1974-75, when they started making themselves conspicuous at LA department stores. When I got my MBA at UCLA in 1980-82, I noticed lots of Iranians working at gas stations and at valet parking, but usually at the most expensive addresses. They seemed to feel that the way to get money was to be around money.

In general, I think Persians were able to take over Beverly Hills because they can put more adults in one house than Americans are willing to do. American adults generally can't tolerate living with adults they aren't married to, but Middle Easterners can have four or five paychecks living in one house. Thus, an Askhenazi extended family might see the grandparents in Beverly Hills, the children in Calabasas, and the grandchildren in Camarillo, while a Persian Jewish family would put them all in the Beverly Hills house. I'm not sure if Middle Easterners live more harmoniously with their relatives than Americans do, or if they just enjoy domestic stress more than we do.

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

76 comments:

RKU said...

This is exactly the problem with the silly IQ-ists. They tend to view all human behavior and personality traits on a one-dimensional scale.

I'd suspect there's actually a pretty loose correlation between the packages of "money-making/business" traits and those for raw intelligence and intellectual/scientific ability. Certainly the historical record seems not to indicate that these are closely linked, either for individuals or for cultures/peoples.

One huge problem with recent American society is the endless media glorification and empowerment of wealth and "money-making." Since one of the quickest and easiest routes to success in this metric is through extreme greed and dishonesty, we're seeing the consequences for our society in each day's headlines.

Someone like Henry Ford became enormously wealthy as a by-product of actually doing something extremely useful and important. A large fraction of today's American wealth-heroes make their money through parasitical manipulation or outright corruption.

Thus societies collapse...

Anonymous said...

What is the breakdown between Iranian Jews and Moslems in the United States?

Steve Sailer said...

Don't know. In casual conversations, Persian Jews in LA call themselves "Persians" rather than "Jews," so it's hard to tell whether you are talking to an Iranian Jew, Bahai, or non-chadored Muslim.

For example, in 2006 I served on the jury of a case where two Iranian brothers-in-law in the used car business stole $2 million from the state of California by lying about how much sales tax was due. The brains of the operation used the money to build a hilarious Persian Palace in San Clemente, then fled back to Iran before being arrested, leaving his brother-in-law to face the music. (I was the only one to vote for guilty.) We never were told whether the crooks were Muslim, Jewish, or Bahai.

Anonymous said...

Long ago I mentioned on this comment board the difference between we Ashkenazim and the Persians who've been shoving us out in Beverly Hills, comparing the situation to the coarse Eastern European Jews looked down upon by the refined German Jews both in Europe and here in the States.

All I can say at this point is that, social traits aside, these people aren't even physically like we are. Where I used to believe, growing up, that we were a tribe, it's become clear to me that Judaism is indeed a culture. I must admit that, when looked at objectively, I - we - resemble Europeans more than we do the Mizrahim.

Anonymous said...

Right on, RKU. I'm with you. There's a big difference between the Germanic farmer or engineer creating wealth, and the late-comer "other" living off of that wealth.

Cossack in a Kilt said...

Nazarian’s courtly 78-year-old father, Younes, who today sits alongside his youngest son at a table laden with crystal bowls of dates, berries, cucumbers and other refreshments—a typical display of Persian hospitality—was a successful tool-and-dye manufacturer in Iran.

Tool and dye?

Talk about diversifying your business.

Sigh. We are doomed.

Dutch Boy said...

If the Persian Jews who lived next door to my mother-in-law in Santa Monica are any indication, Beverly Hills must be all noise all the time!

snot said...

"One huge problem with recent American society is the endless media glorification and empowerment of wealth and "money-making.""




Mmm, now why would that be??

LDS on LSD said...

Amen, RKU.

Anonymous said...

22,000 Zoroastrians left in Iran.

Anonymous said...

In casual conversations, Persian Jews in LA call themselves "Persians" rather than "Jews," so it's hard to tell whether you are talking to an Iranian Jew, Bahai, or non-chadored Muslim.

The skilled conversationalist can get that information without too much trouble. Just find a way to put the "Persian" on the defensive, so that he has to fall back on the "I was persecuted because I was Jewish" line.

Anonymous said...

In the US, Persians are the ethnic group with the highest percentage of individuals within that group with Phd's.

The first wave of immigration from Iran may have included some of these types of families but subsequent waves of immigration have generally been from the educated upper middle class.

Fort Knox said...

Yes it's all very amusing when aggressive Asiatic aliens invade your town and use ingroup strategy to dominate and displace.

Anonymous said...

A lot of Iranians out here in Calabasas and Woodland Hills as well, though obviously not quite as upwardly mobile. It's tough to tell which are Jews and which are Muslims, since even Persian Jews are very culturally Persian. At my kids' school, the parents are very insular and clannish but the kids are bright and gregarious and play well across ethnic divides. They're represented in the gifted program at about their percentage of the student body.

TSM said...

Steve, do you know what you're talking about?

I live in Westwood, and know plenty of Jewish Persians. At most, they'll have a mother-in-law with them.

The typical affluent Iranian is either a professional of some sort, runs a shop downtown where he evades taxes, or does "real estate."

Some Iranians had money even in Iran. There are plenty of poor Iranians, they're just less conspicuous.

The Jewish Persians are almost assuredly dumber on average than the Ashkenazim, per my experience at 12 years of Jewish school.

Anonymous said...

Steve. One important thing to remember about SATs is that a lot of the questions aren't terribly difficult, but there is a time crunch. So if you have IQ of (let's say) 120, you might have the cognitive capability to get all the questions right but might get in trouble due to limited time. For that type of bright kid, studying a lot can help them improve their test taking ability and get a really high SAT score. So studying helps a lot, but probably only if you meet or exceed a certain IQ threshold.

There are quite a few Asian SAT cram schools that, legitimately, claim they clain raise scores in the 100-200 point range. One local Korean kid in my district was able to take his SAT score from 1270 to 1550 in one of those. So I do think that immigrants that come from cultures where parents are fanatical about education (and where kids tend to be pliable and studious by nature) can be at an advantage, even if the mean ethnic IQ is not super high.

According to College Board, Asians that go to highschool in Asia achieve significantly higher SAT scores than Asian-Americans. Why? No reason was given, but I bet the academic culture of East Asia preps a kid a lot better than the academic culture of the U.S.

So for some ethnic groups with moderate though not extraordinary IQs (Chinese, Korean, Indian), hard studying cultural habits do a lot to help them achieve well beyond their IQ on the SATs and in academics in general. For Hispanics and blacks, it seems like the IQ average may unfortunately be low enough that lots of studying may not make much of an impact.

As for Persian Jews, I think for them wealth is more important than education attainment in achieving status in the community. So studying may not take precedence among them the way it does among Indians or Chinese.

Is Hedge Fund manager Paul Touradji a Persian Jew? Touradji sounds Persian, but I figured the name Paul was more likely for a Persian Jew than a Persian Muslim.

Anonymous said...

Don't be too quick to applaud RKU. He also thinks IQ is a myth when it comes to Hispanics.

Anonymous said...

I notice Persians are overrepresented at California universities so I don't think the author's suggestion that they aren't very bright is correct.

ironrailsironweights said...

So for some ethnic groups with moderate though not extraordinary IQs (Chinese, Korean, Indian)
.
.
??
The only group with a higher I.Q. would be the Ashkenazim.

Peter

Anonymous said...

I am a white gentile but have lots of Ashkenazi friends and colleagues (and even a few relatives by marriage) and the Ashkenazi unquestionably in my mind constitute a tribe by common descent. I've read articles recently which talk about how the Ashkenazi have a highly distinctive genetic profile which is quite different from Europeans and the degree of Ashenazi descent can be easily determined. They are a hybrid people from Middle Easterners and southern Europeans (Italians it seems) but the mix was long ago and they've interbred since then. You can read up on this at Gene Expression.

John Seiler said...

"American adults generally can't tolerate living with adults they aren't married to..." -- nor, half the time, the ones they're married to.

I'll bet the Iranian Jewish divorce rate is quite low. A divorce means two households split the family income. Staying married means there's still only one household.

Anonymous said...

Steve, I went to one of those "admissions test" high schools - the top one, with an average SAT near 1500. Needless to say, as an iSteve reader I was significantly above-average even there.

Anyway, a few interesting notes. When I went there, the school was about 70% white, 5% black/hispanic, and 25% asian, although it was clear that asian representation was increasing.

Today I read that this year's freshman class is 55% asian! In East Coast 15% asian Fairfax County. I can't imagine the culture shock of a white kid, used to being in the majority, having the ethnic composition change so radically upon entering high school. It's bound to make a few people question the "race doesn't matter" dogma.

Some things haven't changed, though. The school is still less than 5% combined black/hispanic, even though the total hispanic population in county schools has increased substantially. I'm proud that they haven't debased their standards in the name of diversity, although I'm sure the pressure is increasing.

I don't know how many jews there are now, but there were plenty when I went there. Probably about 10% of the whites, give or take.

Anonymous said...

I see that I misread your article. You were only talking about LA public schools. My high school was #1 nationally. Anyway, the rest of my comment still stands.

Anonymous said...

Actually there exists test scores for Iranians- TIMSS.

http://www.rie.ir/uploads/Results%20of%20TIMSS%20and%20PIRLS%20in%20brief_IRAN.pdf

Charlotte said...

"All I can say at this point is that, social traits aside, these people aren't even physically like we are. Where I used to believe, growing up, that we were a tribe, it's become clear to me that Judaism is indeed a culture. I must admit that, when looked at objectively, I - we - resemble Europeans more than we do the Mizrahim.

I don't want to dispute your observations, but I knew a lot of Bahai Iranians. Since Iranian Bahais may descend from Muslim, Jewish, or Zoroastrian background, it was interesting anthropologically to see if religions their ancestors had held for centuries and abandoned in the 19th or 20th century, made the current generation distinguishable from one another now that they had put such things aside and united under the new religion. In a word--yes. You could see differences, and yes, the Jewish Persian Bahais were recognizably Jewish, at least to me (I am of Euro-Christian background.) Iranians of all religions vary a lot in phenotype, but the ethnically Jewish ones were generally paler in coloring and more European (or Ashkenazi) looking. The voices were distinctive and I swear some of those who had never been to New York sounded like Brooklyn. Some of them I would not have guessed to be middle eastern. One lady was a documentary film maker who admired Woody Allen until he disappointed her. Bahai's in general sought to be seen as Bahais, not Muslims, Jews or Zoroastrians, and that included dispensing with a lot of the cultural baggage, except for the food and some of the history. However, the Jewish Bahai, having always been a minority and tangental to the culture, had no problem and were only to keen to get on with life once they were in the West. I can't really explain it, but the Jews--who had the most ancient religious identity among the Iranians, just seemed the most thoroughly modern. In accepting what this religion considers the latest "revelation", the Jewish members leap-frogged Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Islam, landing smack in the modern era with nothing to lose.
This is not the forum to discuss religious matters, so I am only referring the sociological aspects of all this.

Anonymous said...

According to College Board, Asians that go to highschool in Asia achieve significantly higher SAT scores than Asian-Americans. Why? No reason was given, but I bet the academic culture of East Asia preps a kid a lot better than the academic culture of the U.S.

Reversion to the mean. First-generation immigrants are bright and ambitious; the next generation reverts a little more to the group average.

Anonymous said...

Reversion to the mean. First-generation immigrants are bright and ambitious; the next generation reverts a little more to the group average.

Is there evidence for a regression to the mean effect among Japanese Americans, an Asian group that has not seen much immigration to America over recent decades?

Do Japanese Americans slightly underperform academically compared to recent Asian immigrants?

Anonymous said...

I'd suspect there's actually a pretty loose correlation between the packages of "money-making/business" traits and those for raw intelligence and intellectual/scientific ability. Certainly the historical record seems not to indicate that these are closely linked, either for individuals or for cultures/peoples.

Someone like Henry Ford became enormously wealthy as a by-product of actually doing something extremely useful and important. A large fraction of today's American wealth-heroes make their money through parasitical manipulation or outright corruption.



If plants could talk, I suppose they'd complain about parasitic herbivorous animals who do no useful photosynthetic work. And if non-human animals could talk, I suppose they'd regard plants as unintelligent inferiors to be rightfully exploited.

I think societies have a similar ecology - the low to moderately high IQ types do the truly productive labor, and the very high IQ types simply put a lot of these productive people to work making themselves rich. Obviously nobody is going to get rich off of what he himself actually produces, just as no plant is going to photosynthesize enough energy to produce something like the human brain.

The elite look at the vast majority of humanity as simply another resource to be managed and put to use for them, and why shouldn't they?

Anonymous said...

You could see differences, and yes, the Jewish Persian Bahais were recognizably Jewish, at least to me (I am of Euro-Christian background.) Iranians of all religions vary a lot in phenotype, but the ethnically Jewish ones were generally paler in coloring and more European (or Ashkenazi) looking.

What about the appearance of Sephardic European Jews?

Sephardim are half of all Jews in France (I believe Sarkozy's son is engaged to a Sephardic Jewess).

Do the Sephardim and Ashkenazi look alike?

I know that Jacques Derrida is Sephardic and so were Benjamin Cardozo, David Ricardo, and Disraeli. Both look Ashkenazi/white. Anyone have experience around the Sephardim?

Truth said...

"I see that I misread your article."

I would say that lack of 9th grade reading comprehension is quite indicative of a youngster who "Went to one of those "admissions test" high schools - the top one, with an average SAT near 1500..." and "was significantly above-average even there."

DK said...

Steve Sailer wrote,

The brains of the operation used the money to build a hilarious Persian Palace in San Clemente, then fled back to Iran before being arrested, leaving his brother-in-law to face the music...We never were told whether the crooks were Muslim, Jewish, or Bahai.

That would STRONGLY suggest not Jewish. Jews who flee because of these issues invariably flee to a nearby Middle East country, but certainly not back to Iran.

Anonymous said...

There has been quite an influx of Persians/Arab/Middle East-types in Anaheim Hills in the past few years. Some of the moms wear a headscarf while others wear flashy Bebe outfits to the gym so I'm not exactly sure what religion they are but 20% of ESL (english as a second language)kids in Anaheim Hills schools list Farsi as their primary language.

Our elementary school is among the best in the state (scores a 10 on the API) however from what I have observed when helping in my son's first grade class this year, the middle easteners seem to be bringing down the curve in our school. Some do well but as a whole, I think they are only average at best. My older son's GATE class is dominated by Asians.

Anonymous said...

Wow, Truth. Why compare me to a 9th grader, when even a 3rd grader could have determined that Steve was only talking about ranks within the LA school system? Hell, why not just call me a toddler?

You're clearly more intelligent and productive than I could ever possibly be. I guess that's why you never contribute any original thought, instead choosing to sit back and snipe at other commenters over petty non-issues. From now on, I promise to follow your example.

I guess the fact that I immediately corrected myself on a trivial oversight is what triggered your inferiority complex. If I hadn't, I doubt you would have even recognized the misconception evident in my comment. But my honesty and humility seemed like "a chink in the armor" to you, so you went on the attack with your worthless, irrelevant comment - demonstrating your jealousy and resentment.

If you want to contribute, tell us about your high school experience as it relates to the subject matter of this post. But I doubt you will, because deep down you know that you're incapable of providing any kind of insightful or objective analysis.

Ronduck said...

This post brings up a weird incident involving an Iranian Muslim here in AZ. An engineer at the local Palo Verde nuclear power plant was detained by federal agents after returning from Iran with some software used in the management of the plant. The Iranian in question stated that he just wanted to show the software to some friends, and he also stated that he was moving back to Iran in the near future to work at an electric motor plant.

Immigrant Muslims working in a nuclear power plant after 9/11, what the hell is wrong with our government?

Anonymous Nth said...

"I think societies have a similar ecology..."

Right on, Anonymous. Not to sound patronizing, but keep following this thought, as I and my cohorts have over the years. Though you'll be classified as some form of "hater", you'll eventually reach the conclusion that there is no realistic historical narrative of "good" and "evil", that the individual isn't the basis for survival, and that something called "morals" are absolutely useless if they're not enabling you to ensure your place on this earth.

David said...

Anonymous said

"One important thing to remember about SATs is that a lot of the questions aren't terribly difficult, but there is a time crunch. So if you have IQ of (let's say) 120, you might have the cognitive capability to get all the questions right but might get in trouble due to limited time."

Isn't speed a factor in IQ tests? It seems to me the limited time is a remarkably g-loaded aspect of the SAT.

You know what they say about monkeys and typewriters...

Anonymous said...

"
I know that Jacques Derrida is Sephardic and so were Benjamin Cardozo, David Ricardo, and Disraeli. "

Why do people always claim that Sephardi intelligence is below average?

Anonymous said...

"Do Japanese Americans slightly underperform academically compared to recent Asian immigrants?"

The major problem with measuring the current young generation of Japanese Americans is they don't exist.

Very few of those kids have two Japanese parents.

Truth said...

"But my honesty and humility seemed like "a chink in the armor" to you, so you went on the attack with your worthless, irrelevant comment - demonstrating your jealousy and resentment."

IF you go out of your way to highlight it, is it really "humility?"

You probably do have a point, in retrospect, in that I should have given you credit for admitting that you made a mistake; however, you are the one who sprained his shoulder patting himself on the back, not me. I think it's apparent how there is a bit of a conflict there?

Secondly, I didn't compare you to a 9th grader, I compared you to an 8th grader at best as I said that you had a "lack of 9th grade reading comprehension." With all possible respect, chief, this relatively minor, yet compounding error in reading comprehension probably doesn't advance your case.

Now I do contribute original thought here, though possibly not as much as I could, because I am highly entertained by the concept of a board, the general purpose of the posts to surreptitiously brag about one's intelligence, in which so little intelligence is shown. Sorry, that's how I see the level of posts here.

In my humble opinion, the posts here show tons of EDUCATION, very little INTELLECT. Although, your grammar and spelling are light years ahead, there is really very little difference in intellect between what I read here and at blackplanet.com.

I wouldn't call these "petty non-issues"; again, the purpose here is for one, individually and collectively to show off his IQ.

As for my "jealousy and resentment", why would I express these sentiments regarding someone I don't know from a can of spray paint in a hardware store? You went to a good high-school, and got good grades (from what you claim).

Whoopeeeee!

The purpose of school is in what you have done with it after you leave, or at least, it used to be.

I went to Brooklyn Tech High School one of three New York public schools that students needed to take a test to attend. My performance there was decidedly mediocre. I then attended a mediocre college with mediocre results, and was Summa Com Laude in a mediocre grad school.

Guess what; if I had it all to do over again, I would have dropped out of the 10th grade and got my GED. It was all a completely harmful waste of time.

Now as I didn't know any Persians until late in life, I don't know how this "relates to the subject matter of this post", but I find what I do today much more interesting than anything I did at 15; so sue me for that. I await your insightful and objective analysis on this.

Votre Ami:

Le Vérité

Anonymous said...

I am a white gentile but have lots of Ashkenazi friends and colleagues (and even a few relatives by marriage) and the Ashkenazi unquestionably in my mind constitute a tribe by common descent. I've read articles recently which talk about how the Ashkenazi have a highly distinctive genetic profile which is quite different from Europeans and the degree of Ashenazi descent can be easily determined.




This is nonsense and many people, inluding, I believe, Steve, have debunked it. The Ashkenazi do not have "a highly distinctive genetic profile which is quite different from Europeans". They are Europeans.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

The elite look at the vast majority of humanity as simply another resource to be managed and put to use for them, and why shouldn't they?"

Because it is evil. That's why not.

Charlotte said...

"Do the Sephardim and Ashkenazi look alike?

I know that Jacques Derrida is Sephardic and so were Benjamin Cardozo, David Ricardo, and Disraeli. Both look Ashkenazi/white. Anyone have experience around the Sephardim?"

There's plenty of reading material on the subject. I've read books and seen photo-documentary books on Sephardim, Ashkenazi, and their resettlement in Israel. There is a photo of an Iraqi Jewish sports team circa 1920, and they definitely look a lot less "middle eastern" than Iraqis in general. The author even mentions that Jews could usually be distinguished from the majority population by their paler complexions. The Moroccan Jews...well, think Olivia Hussey in Romeo & Juliet (1967.) I have no idea what her ancestry is but she's fairly typical of Moroccan Sephardic Jewish girls. Kurdish Jews look like Kurds.
Germaine to the subject is the appearance of Chrisitan Arabs in Israel. In Haifa the Arabs are mostly Christian and as in the case of the Jews in Moslem lands, most tend to be more "Euro" in appearance--lighter, a little different in body language, features, general persona. The men especially seem very different from Muslims. They don't have as much of the air of rigidity and dead certainty that is a part of the Muslim persona (at least over there.)
Neither the Jews nor Christians intermarried with Muslims for many, many centuries, so they just remained more like whoever their ancestors were. Maybe the Muslims 1200 years ago were just like they aer now, or maybe some of them mixed with the sub-Saharan Africans they brought as slaves and who usually became Muslim eventually, if they were not already. This last explanation is probably the case in some of the Arab countries, but not so much in Iran or Turkey.

Charlotte said...

Steve Sailer wrote,

"The brains of the operation used the money to build a hilarious Persian Palace in San Clemente, then fled back to Iran before being arrested, leaving his brother-in-law to face the music...We never were told whether the crooks were Muslim, Jewish, or Bahai.

That would STRONGLY suggest not Jewish. Jews who flee because of these issues invariably flee to a nearby Middle East country, but certainly not back to Iran."

Not Bahai either. The Bahais have been persecuted in Iran for the past 3 decades and Persia is last place an errant member would "flee" to. The Muslim government systematically executed the Bahai administrative bodies in the early 80s, and after that the administrative body there was dissolved by the Bahais.

Anonymous said...

I think it's simply the aging factor. The Jewish people that I knew in Beverly Hills (2 couples) didn't appear to have any kids and they got old and moved into rest homes. Somebody had to take their place. Who else but more aggressive foreigners.

Anonymous said...

The only group with a higher I.Q. would be the Ashkenazim.

Peter


Episcopalians. Actually, that's vs. Jews, don't know about vs. Ashkenazi.

~ Svigor

Anonymous said...

Yes it's all very amusing when aggressive Asiatic aliens invade your town and use ingroup strategy to dominate and displace.

Yes, and the way one proves one's status is to laugh the whole thing off? "What, me worry? That's for my grandkids!" ;)

~ Svigor

Anonymous said...

Steve,

First of all, the overwhelming majority of the persians living in the best parts of the LA region (Santa Monica North of Montana, Brentwood, and Beverly Hills) are jewish. This is because Jewish persians tend to be much more economically successful than non jewish persians. But in the Los Angeles region as a whole, most persians are not Jewish

________

From Wikipedia:

Two-fifths of Iranian Americans identify themselves as Muslims, almost an equal percentage appear not to practice any particular religion, and the balance are roughly equally divided among Christians, followers of Judaism, Baha'is and Zoroastrians.[23]

___________

Steve, the overwhelming majority of the persians in the Los Angeles metroplex are people whose grandparents were muslim. But the most devout muslims tended to want to stay in Iran (for obvious reasons) and the muslims that moved to the LA area are the more secular types. So it is fair to describe most persians in LA as being of muslim ancestry, but the trend is for each successive generation born in the USA to be less connected to persian culture and less connected to Islam.

It would be fascinating to read an article that contrasted the modern and relaxed attitude towards religion exhibited by most non jewish persians in the LA area with the pro jihad attitudes of the muslims who settled in Dearborn (just to name an example) I would bet that the persian community in LA will generate very few future terrorists but the muslim community in Michigan will generate quite a few

Anonymous said...

Studies have found that 3rd generation Asian-Americans have worse GPAs than those in the 2nd generation. Culture seems to be the difference between 2nd and 3rd gen. Asian 2nd generation kids grow up with demanding parents, but the 3rd generation are much more assimilated. If Japanese are not as academically competitive as Chinese or Koreans, it's probably more a generational issue than an IQ issue.

It's unlikely that IQ is the decisive factor since even as far back as the 1950s, Asians (Chinese and Japanese, not Filipinos) were known for being academic overachievers.

As Flynn found from his review of Asian IQ studies, Asian kids (Japanese, Chinese) tend to somewhat overperform relative to their IQ (the Asian mean IQ approximately equals the white mean IQ) and much of this overperformance is connected to their home environment and academic work ethic. Take away that pressure at home, as happens by the 3rd gen, and Asian kids tend not to overperform as much.

I've personally quite a few East and South Asians and while I think they're as bright as anyone else, I have a tough time believing they could be as smart as Jews (who they equal on lots of academic metrics). Their success seems more derived by demanding parents that can push their kids to study hard and think big rather than any innate cognitive adavantage. That's why Asians do well in fields with a high education barrier to entry (medicine, engineering, accounting), but aren't neccessarily distinguished in fields with lower education barriers (entrapranuership, finance, media, entertainment). Jews, in contrast, are overrepresented in all those fields because, in addition to studying harder and valuing education more, Jews are also quite a bit smarter and more creative than other ethnicities. (I'm not Jewish by the way).

I'm not familiar with Persian Jews, but my hunch is that they're probably no smarter than anyone else but overachieve relative to their IQ.

IQ and life/academic achievement aren't as correlated as you might think. Even when they are, the correlation for East Asians/ South Asians/Persians/Jews is likely weaker than for white caucasians/blacks/Latinos.

kudzu bob said...

If lack of reading comprehension indicates immaturity, then Truth must be sperm traveling backwards in time.

Truth said...

"(the Asian mean IQ approximately equals the white mean IQ)"

If "approximately" can be translated to "3-6 points superior", that's true.

steve wood said...

I would bet that the persian community in LA will generate very few future terrorists but the muslim community in Michigan will generate quite a few

Could this be related to social class? I thought that most Persians in the US - Jewish or otherwise - were descended from upper-middle class people who either came here for education before the Revolution - obviously a privileged group - or came here to escape Khomeini et al. On the other hand, the Arab areas of Detroit are more working class.

Or, alternatively, maybe it's a Shiite vs. Sunni thing. Aren't the Muslims in Dearborn mostly Sunni Arabs rather than Shiite Iranians?

It does seem to me that, however much the Iranian government may support terrorism and however inflammatory its rhetoric, Iranians as a whole seem to be less fanatical and more secular/Western than the population of many Arab countries. (This could be a result of the strong disregard Persians have for Arabs.) For example, aren't most suicide bombers Sunni Arabs and not Iranians?

Truth said...

"They are Europeans."

Sure they are; when they invent cool shit. When they champion A.A, not so much.

"The only group with a higher I.Q. would be the Ashkenazim.

Peter

Episcopalians. Actually, that's vs. Jews, don't know about vs. Ashkenazi."

Would Episcopalians be considered a "group" for these intents and purposes?

If so, I nominate we consider the IQ's of Brahimins, Episcopalians and Ashkenzi against those of "Black Members of the Mensa Society" and see who has the superior IQ.

"If lack of reading comprehension indicates immaturity, then Truth must be sperm traveling backwards in time."

Good one Niles! quite pithy.

Anonymous said...

Article on Ashkenazi genetic distinctiveness.

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/01/how_ashkenazi_jewish_are_you.php

kudzu bob said...

>"(the Asian mean IQ approximately equals the white mean IQ)"

If "approximately" can be translated to "3-6 points superior", that's true.<

While I'm in no danger of winning the Fields Medal, it seems reasonable to me that if Peter owes Paul somewhere between $103 and $106 but neither is quite sure of the exact amount, then both guys will probably think of it as "approximately" one Benjamin.

Oh, and unless Brooklyn Tech High School is in England and not New York you're supposed to put the commas INSIDE the quotation marks.

I'm done with this thread. Drop us a line when you get to the Big Bang.

Truth said...

"it seems reasonable to me that if Peter owes Paul somewhere between $103 and $106 but neither is quite sure of the exact amount, then both guys will probably think of it as "approximately" one Benjamin."

I hope you don't run a cash register for a living, sport.

"m done with this thread. Drop us a line when you get to the Big Bang."

I'm more of a "seven-days-then-rest" guy.

Anonymous said...

Q: "The elite look at the vast majority of humanity as simply another resource to be managed and put to use for them, and why shouldn't they?"

A: "Because it is evil. That's why not."

Okay, think for a minute of the starving blacks in Zimbabwe. They are even worse off than slaves on southern plantations in the US 150 years ago. Without advocating either slavery or starvation, both of which are currently extant in Africa, people who cannot effectively run governments are better off, literally, being ruled by elites. It is not exploitive by definition, but can be in practice.

BenjaminL said...

Are Iranian Jews anything like the Syrian Jews ("SYs") that Zev Chafets wrote about for the NYT magazine?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/magazine/14syrians-t.html

What about the Bukharian Jews who build "Bukharian palaces" in Queens?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/05/nyregion/05forest.html

This is getting a bit confusing. They all seem to have appalling nouveau-riche taste, even when the riches are no longer nouveau.

Anonymous said...

Sephardim are half of all Jews in France (I believe Sarkozy's son is engaged to a Sephardic Jewess).

We often hear that Sakozy is of Jewish origin only to have that ancestry dismissed as irrelevant by people who claim its, well...irrelevant.

But is it?

Sakozy via his son (and his son too) clearly are going to have a somewhat pro-Jewish outlook, and now his potential grandchildren, they will be Jewish technically and more than half ethnically. What happens if they enter politics too?

Anonymous said...

This whole thread is very interesting -

The Syrian Jews of New York are famous for earning exceptionally high incomes through hard work and creativity NOT through either high IQ or education. My understanding is that their IQs place them around 100, not anywhere near the IQ of the European Jews. Also Syrian jews disdain college and higher education and typically do something creative and business oriented - (one famous Syrian Jew is Jerry Seinfeld, who made his money without the sort of elite education that European jews crave)



Other posters on this thread have pointed out that the Japanese and Chinese that immigrated to the USA 100 years ago have seen their grand children and great grandchildren intermarry with other ethnic groups- are we seeing the same thing with the non - jewish persians ? Do we think that the non jewish persians now in high school will wind up marrying other persians or wind up marrying in to the larger society?

Anonymous said...

President Sarkozy is one quarter Jewish. His grandfather was a Jew from Greece, not an Ashkenazi.

Anonymous said...

Flynn analyzed several studies and found that, when controlled for environment, Asians scored at a mean IQ of 98.5. Subsequent generations of Asian kids have scored at IQ of 103, but Flynn attributed this increase to intellectually rigorous home environment that wealthier (and better educated) generations have created for their children since the 1960s. I suggest reading some of his work. It's quite good and refutes the entire argument that Asians do better because they have higher IQs.

As Flynn put it, Asians do better in academics despite slightly lower IQs. That's completely consistent with the observation that Asian countries are no wealthier or more economically more dynamic than western countries, but they do have excellent academic stats.

PRCalDude said...

when they started making themselves conspicuous at LA department stores.

Conspicuous? Oh, you mean the BMWs, expensive cologne, flavor-savers, excessively use of 'product' in the hair, rims, USC alumni license plate covers, obnoxious attitudes, abysmal driving manners, Gucci knock-offs, etc? Those Persians?

PRCalDude said...

Could this be related to social class?

No. Robert Spencer discusses this all the time. Bin Laden has high social standing. He's filthy rich. John Walker Lindh was from a rich area. The jihadists at the Glasgow airport were doctors. Zawahiri is a qualified surgeon. Plenty of jihadists have high social standing and/or money.

Anonymous said...

Would Episcopalians be considered a "group" for these intents and purposes?

If so, I nominate we consider the IQ's of Brahimins, Episcopalians and Ashkenzi against those of "Black Members of the Mensa Society" and see who has the superior IQ.


Sure, but here come the Episcopalian Mensa Society...

:P

Yes "who's a group?" is a valid question. If we're going to set the bar as high as Jews, then the answer approaches "no one but Jews." If we're going to set it as low as "look I have a card" then it approaches "everyone." Maybe we should keep an open mind until we see some research into the relatedness of (e.g.) Episcopalians to one another vs. to general Europeans.

Then there's the fact that in a sense, comparing Jews to (most?) anyone else is apples to oranges; Judaism is an elite every bit as much as Episcopalians are. The difference is, Jews have been cuckoo-birding their dropouts into native populations since, well, pretty much forever. So they're an elite that sheds its lower classes. So in that sense comparing Jews and Episcopalians becomes more apples to apples (IMO).

(And if Black Mensas start intermarrying to a significant degree, and showing other signs of groupishness, hey why not? On the other hand, how would their total population compare with that of Jews or Episcopalians or Quakers?)

~ Svigor

Anonymous said...

Ridiculous. Persians might be sub 100 and make up w/ clan stratagem but Orientals are obviously smarter than other races. Get over it. And they were smarter in the fifties too, when they were dirt poor.

The intelligence level of these light brown subraces is dubious. Iq stats for them are somewhat lower, maybe by 2/3 standard dev(which we all know) however they are nowhere near immigrant Hispanic dysfunction casting doubt.

Here is a good description of Oriental ascendancy since the seventies and IQ levels comparing Chinese with non-NE Asians. Hint they haven’t changed with better nutrition and economic comfort.
http://www.mcgill.ca/files/economics/Jonespaper.pdf

patrick said...

Seinfeld is half Syrian (mother's side) and half Ashkenazi (paternal side, judging from the Germanic surname)

Anonymous said...

M. La Vérité-

I appreciate your recognition that I did, in fact, acknowledge my mistake before you commented. I wasn't trying to pat myself on the back when I pointed this out; I just found it dishonorable for you to attack a man for a mistake he'd already (immediately) admitted. I didn't read Steve's article thoroughly, as I was more interested in some of the older material that he linked to. Nor did I double-check my own post for errors, as I prefer to take my mind-dumps quickly and clean up any messes later. Regardless, no one is infallible. To insult someone's intelligence for a minor oversight - one they have already admitted to, no less - bespeaks either a deep insecurity or a very niggling personality.

Similarly, I did not relate my high school experience to boast of my own superiority. Like Steve's, my story was about ethnic change at a top-tier public school. But while Steve's school declined as a result of changing demographics, my school hand-selects its demographics and continues to excel. I mentioned my above-average performance as a tongue-in-cheek compliment to Steve, whose prolific writing habits provide us daily food for thought. Obviously, as an exclusively anonymous poster, I do not gain any credibility by citing my academic credentials.

Thanks for the account of your high school experience. Personally, I don't regret my time in high school but I do wish that I had picked a hard-science track from day one in college.

I hope that in the future you will do more sharing and less quibbling. À la prochaine!

green mamba said...

"Jews have been cuckoo-birding their dropouts into native populations since, well, pretty much forever. So they're an elite that sheds its lower classes."

What's your source for this strange assertion? In my experience, it is often the less intelligent Jews who cling most tightly to their Jewish identity and more intelligent ones who dilute or dissolve that identity in the surrounding culture.

Anonymous said...

In my experience, it is often the less intelligent Jews who cling most tightly to their Jewish identity and more intelligent ones who dilute or dissolve that identity in the surrounding culture.

And what's your source for this strange assertion?

Svigor said...

"Jews have been cuckoo-birding their dropouts into native populations since, well, pretty much forever. So they're an elite that sheds its lower classes."

What's your source for this strange assertion? In my experience, it is often the less intelligent Jews who cling most tightly to their Jewish identity and more intelligent ones who dilute or dissolve that identity in the surrounding culture.


I assume you're referring to the fact that today, Orthodox Jews tend to be the less intelligent sort, and secular Jews the more intelligent? This trend only started post-emancipation. Before that, Orthodox Jewry is a redundancy. Look at the economic behaviors of Old Jewry; see many peasants, farmers, soldiers, servants? No. You see merchants, scholars, bankers, artisans, an elite "head" with no "body" of its own. Kevin MacDonald goes into the one-way gene flow that characterized Jewry, and how less worthy (intelligent, committed) Jews converted out into the surrounding populations.

It's common sense, really. Make your (endogamous) group one that sets high standards and requires committment, and the less worthy will tend to drop out. It's the same thing we saw with that study a few years ago that supposed that downward mobility meant that European upper classes were populating the lower classes, except that the Jews drew their ingroup border around their upper classes (in effect).

This may not hold any more to the same degree (love to see something more than anecdotal evidence). But, I do know that Jews are far more endogamous than any stock Euro-American group (prominent Jews complain of silent genocide when Jewish exogamy with Euro-American groups is a fraction of that between Euro-American groups; they complain more about this far more (no comparison at all, really) than Euro-Americans complain about actual continental-level miscegenation).

Anonymous said...

But, I do know that Jews are far more endogamous than any stock Euro-American group (prominent Jews complain of silent genocide when Jewish exogamy with Euro-American groups is a fraction of that between Euro-American groups; they complain more about this far more (no comparison at all, really) than Euro-Americans complain about actual continental-level miscegenation).

The outmarriage rate for Jews is estimated to be at least 47%.

Anonymous said...

"Asian countries are no wealthier or more economically more dynamic than western countries"

People have short memories. Up until 1999, Japan had a higher per capita than the US and any major European economy.

Also a somewhat related question. Has anyone noted how German GDP per capita lags behind US/UK?

Gene Berman said...

Cossack in a Kilt:

He misspelled. He meant to say:
"tulle and dye."

Svigor said...

Either Steve doesn't want me linking to MR, or my post was eaten.

Only Jews are allowed to count Jews:

1. Orthodoxy says no counting Jews. Sure, most Jews aren't Orthodox, but these things have a way of translating into secular traditions, especially when they're adaptive.

2. Jews have a history of crypsis (which is why the census doesn't count them).

3. Jews have a history of playing Chicken Little, and organized Jewry stands to gain from scare mongering on this issue.

So let's just say the number you assert isn't a dependable one.

But, let's accept it for the purposes of argument. To what do we compare it?

Even if the outmarriage rate is 50% that is still indicative of a resistance to assimilation. I combined Dr. Alba’s intermarriage data for white gentile ethnic groups with census data for ethnic group percentages. Plotting rates of intermarriage (to someone of completely different ethnicity) of white gentile groups vs. percent of US population yields a trendline formula of:
Y = -2.4172x + 87.895

If the Irish are 10.8% of the US population, they would be expected to have an outmarriage rate of 61.9%. The measured rate, by Alba = 64.9%. That’s a good match and probably within statistical error of the predicted.

Jews? If Jews are 3% of the population, their predicted outmarriage rate would be 80.7% - a figure which can be compared to what is above, and which is obviously representative of a real, and wide, difference between predicted and actual.

MacSweeney said...

Remember that the GDP statistics of Asian countries are handicapped because of their tendency to save. This is the opposite of the West, where people not only spend every dollar they have the second they get it, but borrow even more money on top of that.

When the dust finally settles from the global financial crisis, we're going to have a clearer picture of which countries were fraudulently wealthy. America, I'm looking at you. Ireland is another prime candidate I hate to say.

Anonymous said...

What a silly post. Iranian-Americans are on average higher earners than the rest of the American population, regardless of whether they are Iranian Muslims or Jews. It's cute that you want to big up your own race, but don't let that blind you by trying to downplay otherwise very successful immigrant communities. Steve Sailer, you are not just racist, but you're also extremely ignorant.