March 22, 2010

A Modest Proposal

In 1982, South Asian immigrant businessmen persuaded the Reagan Administration to reclassify Asian Indians from Caucasian to Asian so that they would be eligible for minority business development low-interest loans from the Small Business Administration and for breaks on federal contracting. (Hasidic Jews were given special privileges in 1982, as well.) According to a 2005 report by the Office of the Inspector General of the SBA: "In 1982, SBA designated “Asian Indian Americans” as a socially disadvantaged group."

The 2010 Census will likely reveal that of the 15 specified racial groups on the Census form, "Asian Indians" have the highest average incomes.

Wouldn't it be a right and fitting gesture for Indian-American groups to announce publicly (before the 2010 Census results are published) that they no longer need these economic breaks? "We'd like to thank the American people for their kindness in granting us these favors, but 28 years is enough. Therefore, we're requesting that we South Asians no longer get special treatment by the government."

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

105 comments:

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

If all that need be done is that a president reclassify an ethnic or religious group as socially disadvantaged, and it is otherwise impossible to get rid of these set-asides (due to congressional opposition) then why not just have the next Republican president (assuming he has cojones, which is a longshot) declare: Presbyterians, Mormons, Lutherans, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, English, Irish, Scots-Irish, Poles, Italians, etc., etc. all to be "socially disadvantaged"? Flood the class so that essentially everyone is covered, thereby rendering the set-asides meaningless.

That might sound crazy, but it's positively sane compared to the idea that Indian-Americans would give up their special benefits. It's in their nature to yield nothing to no one.

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

...but then I guess that's why you titled your post "A Modest Proposal." I didn't catch that.

Flood of Desi commenters in 3, 2, 1...

El Caudillo said...

Wouldn't it be a right and fitting gesture for Indian-American groups to announce publicly (before the 2010 Census results are published) that they no longer need these economic breaks? "We'd like to thank the American people for their kindness in granting us these favors, but 28 years is enough. Therefore, we're requesting that we South Asians no longer get special treatment by the government."

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!

Ha ha!

*Oh man Steve-O, I needed a good laugh like that one

Anonymous said...

Pretty swift there Sailer

ggbbgeeeru said...

OT.

Wiki on Steve Sailer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_sailer

Sailer's article on Hurricane Katrina was followed by accusations of racism from left-wing organizations Media Matters for America and the Southern Poverty Law Center.[19][20] In reference to the New Orleans slogan "let the good times roll", Sailer commented:

What you won’t hear, except from me, is that 'Let the good times roll' is an especially risky message for African-Americans. The plain fact is that they tend to possess poorer native judgment than members of better-educated groups. Thus they need stricter moral guidance from society.

—Sailer, Steve, "Let the Good Times Roll", VDare.com

Neoconservative columnist John Podhoretz, responded in the National Review Online blog by calling Sailer's statement "shockingly racist and paternalistic".[21]


Funny as hell. Honesty is a crime.

Anonymous said...

Great point. The only "historically disadvantaged" group that even modestly should be recognized is blacks who are direct descendants of slaves.

Everybody else came here of their own free will and accord.

Anonymous said...

Steve, you misunderstand.
The object of AA is not to 'empower' 'minorities' and women, no, the object is to do down White men.

Anonymous said...

Yes. We shouldn't get those loans. The majority of the Indians probably would support your proposal. However, those that get the loans have a financial incentive to be on the gravy train and would lobby hard against the move. Since money talks, it's likely that the loans will continue.

dearieme said...

"reclassify Asian Indians from Caucasian to Asian so that they would be eligible for minority business development low-interest loans from the Small Business Administration": Good grief, you mean that there was an underlying assumption that the Chinese need special encouragement to run businesses?

Tommy said...

Ok, let's buy into the argument that blacks came here in chains, and after slavery was ended were then subject to decades of Jim Crow and de facto discrimination, and American Indians were already here and conquered by whites and relegated to reservations...everybody else, Asian Indians, Hasidic Jews, etc CAME HERE VOLUNTARILY. Why should anyone else even be considered for special treatment?

Anonymous said...

I fully support this, the net effect will be positive for Indians especially in college admissions

Anonymous said...

The funniest thing about your proposal is that there's no group (besides Hasidim) that's more cliquish and exclusionary. I grew up in an area with a lot of Indian immigrants and in high school they helped each other out (ie cheat) more than any other group, even though they were smart and studious enough to pass on their own; in grad school they were largely impenetrable social groups whose girls didn't date non-Indians at anywhere near the high rate east Asians, whites, etc dated, and even in my workplace now [scientists] it's a joke how Indian managers only hire other Indians. Of course no one says anything, probably because no one wants to insult the disadvantaged, so after work they just get in their beamers and mercedes and go home to their mcmansions...

Dahinda said...

No Indian I know would pass up a freebie! Don't count on that happening any time soon. If it seems that it will be taken away expect a loud fight!

Anonymous said...

Actually younger indians are drifting the other way, adopting the hate whitey identity politics
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia


Obviously, for Sepia Mutiny, which has always defined itself as an inclusive blog for the “South Asian” diaspora, this divison of the South Asian community is a little frustrating. How am I, whose family all originate from what is now Pakistan, of a different racial background from a Mohajir Pakistani, whose family all originated in what is now India?


Growing up in America, I've enjoyed the privileges of whiteness. In the US military people called Muslims and those confused for being Muslims (Hindus and Sikhs), they would call them derogatory names and assumed many were gay since men in South Asia and the Middle East show affection to one another in ways not expressed in North America. I would have to defend my community, and many were stunned that I was Afghan and so PC with the "enemy" which included Desis in their bigoted minds.

rec1man said...

Koreans use more of the SBA loans than Indians
Also a lot of regular jews use Hasidic front ment to milk SBA money

Chinese are also heavy users of SBA loans

Anonymous said...

to reclassify Asian Indians from Caucasian to Asian so that they would
...officially join the Asian Caucus.

Anonymous said...

Once these affirmative policies are in place they stay for all eternity. Social engineering always ends up with unanticipated negative outcomes since those inclined to push for it never have the capability or wisdom required. Race and AA have just degenerated into rackets plied by professionals and amateurs alike.

Dutch Boy said...

Good Joke!

Anonymous said...

steve, a lot of asian indians don't get breaks in areas they are disproportionately represented, like medical schools. many asian indians aren't even aware of this business break.

as such, i doubt they'd have much problem with such a change in designation.

Anonymous said...

I wouldn't hold my breath.

Anonymous said...

It would be nice if Sailer could provide actual dollar figures – how much money when to Indian-owned businesses that would not have but for those set-asides? My guess is it would not be much. Certainly not equal to how much taxes they pay.

Here is another modest proposal. Indians will gladly give up those grossly unfair set-asides as soon as colleges get rid of legacy admissions, or other clever admissions policies, such as “geographically diversity.” So all those golf-players from the Great Plains need not stand in the way of Indian students applying from Edison, NJ.

- KXB

Kylie said...

Your modest proposal sounds less like something out of Swift and more like a Monty Python sketch.

I can just see Eric Idle dressed to represent a grateful South East Asian and sounding like Ben Kingsley in Ghandi while trying to refuse further government assistance. "Already I am prospering due to your country's generosity. Only am I saying that enough is enough. Is this not a Western concept?"

More to the point, I worked for an Asian Indian family-owned business here in the US. I was used to hard work but that job was hell on earth. Single moms with no outside financial help would quit and not even return to pick up their final paychecks. The turnover rate was so high that after only a few months I had seniority. It's the only time I ever walked off a job.

Don't hold your breath expecting gratitude from this demographic. They may be intelligent and work hard but as I learned from observing them, there's more to being a good person--and a good citizen--than that.

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

Neoconservative columnist John Podhoretz, responded in the National Review Online blog by calling Sailer's statement "shockingly racist and paternalistic".

But Podhoretz wouldn't at all hesitate, in private company at least, to suggest that Jews are smarter and possess better native judgment than the rest of us schlubs. Podhoretz is an ass.

Anonymous said...

Steve, you got it. Publicized correctly, this issue alone could be a complete immigration and amnesty game changer.

Anonymous said...

South Asians, followed by Asia Pacific Asians, are the largest per capita recipients of ethnic ('racial') preferences. Do the research - it's about affinity networks and the hundreds of billions of dollars in government contracts. Find out who is Frank Islam (South Asian). Who is the head of all IT for the federal government?

Anonymous said...

correction to above - "south asians are the largest per capita ethnic preference recipients, after, of course, 'Alaska Natives', which is another scam.

tommy said...

Better yet, shouldn't South Asian immigrant businessmen also set aside money to help new disadvantaged groups through their own exorbitant means.

Jim O said...

You have a dry sense of humor, Steve.

Udolpho.com said...

how very droll

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

January 22, 2013: Executive Order, Office of the President of the United States: "Any member of any ethnic or religious group determined to have an annual per capita income or average wages lower than groups presently considered to be 'socially disadvantaged' for the purposes of low-interest loans and other government set-aside and business development programs shall hereby also be considered 'socially disadvantaged' and eligible for said programs."

How would the race-agitators on the left argue against that? It's only extending the programs to groups poorer than those already on the list! There's no mention of race, no mention of ethnicity, no mention of Indians, and no mention of non-Hasidic Jews, who would probably be the only group ineligible for such set-asides.

Elegant, simple, succinct, and never gunna happen, because establishment Republicans (including, I have come to realize, Mitt Romney) don't have the balls to do it.

John Craig said...

Yes, and black people will also speak up to say that forty-two yeas of affirmative action is enough, thank you, as almost every African-American now in the work force has spent his career being judged at a lower standard, and they're tired of it.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know details about the SBA or other loans so many Indians get to purchase hotels?
interest rate?
other terms?

Yes or no, if you know specifics about anything related, please write about them.

Amazing Kreskin said...

The High Court in South Africa has ruled that Chinese South Africans are to be reclassified as black people.

It made the order so that ethnic Chinese can benefit from government policies aimed at ending white domination in the private sector.

The Chinese Association of South Africa took the government to court, saying its members had been discriminated against.


Link

forthurst said...

The underlying purpose of such preferential legislation, be it in support of 'minority' business or education is to stymie the white population which actually built the US from the ground up. It is no coincidence that since the corruption of the legislative process to achieve comparative sidelining of white influence in the USA, the country has become much nastier, with outright criminality practiced by its so-called bankers, and far less prosperous and would be even less so should the East Asians cease sending you goods in exchange for pretty worthless pieces of paper.

The categorizations of race in the US are bizarre. Northern Europeans who built the US are white not Caucasian: Jews are Caucasian since they are Turkic, one of the very small groups who actually come from that region which of course does not include Indians.

With regard to your piece on giftedness in Taki's Magazine, deprecating innate ability over practice, I think you are drawing too much from anecdotal evidence. It may sell books but it isn't scientific and furthermore it is too easy to refute with contrary anecdotal evidence. For instance, take the case of Beethoven, an unwilling pupil who disliked both music lessons and practice but whose achievements in music were never surpassed, yet when he himself tried to achieve the same result with his nephew he was spectacularly unsuccessful. Then again, maybe Leopold Mozart recognised in his son outstanding innate ability from an early age and decided to exploit it; parents always know when they have a very bright or very dull child because their behaviour is so different from the norm I am sure that if Mozarts were reproducible then some ambitious parent would have realised it by now. The fact is that Mozart could compose and write out a masterpiece in manuscript substantially faster than a copyist could duplicate what he had written - whatever Mozart had was more than 10,000 hours of practice between his ears.

rec1man said...

Anon wrote - in grad school they were largely impenetrable social groups whose girls didn't date non-Indians at anywhere near the high rate east Asians, whites, etc dated,
--


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ_sRFPm2Ko

Has an interview with a US born and raised Brahmin woman who will only date another Brahmin -

Also east asians and whites rank above Indian muslims in the dating scale -

The entire process gives weight to religion and diet over race

Anonymous said...

everybody else, Asian Indians, Hasidic Jews, etc CAME HERE VOLUNTARILY. Why should anyone else even be considered for special treatment?



Because white men are pure distilled EVIL?

Anonymous said...

even in my workplace now [scientists] it's a joke how Indian managers only hire other Indians.


It's a sick joke, but yes, Indians only hire other Indians. In every job field.

Anonymous said...

The fact is that Mozart could compose and write out a masterpiece in manuscript substantially faster than a copyist could duplicate what he had written - whatever Mozart had was more than 10,000 hours of practice between his ears.




No doubt. But let's not kid ourselves - the number of jobs which require a Mozart level of creative genius can be counted on the fingers of your two hands. And probably on the fingers of one.

Muralitharan Venkataramkrishnaswamy said...

Stop oppressing me!

Uday said...

Actually younger indians are drifting the other way, adopting the hate whitey identity politics

You need to read the comments more carefully. The comment was posted by a Mustafa, a Muslim.

Anonymous said...

A Indian immigrant told me at work that I should get a girlfriend and start having kids. He said he is not from America and not black or white,so he is not bias,and he sees the difference between blacks and whites and he says the wrong people are having kids. He also said he lived in a Jewish neighborhood and the Jews have nice neighborhoods. I guess he believes in HBD and doesn't know it.

stari_momak said...

Best of all, South Asian businessmen would recognize their obvious talents are much more in demand to sort out what is still a very poor country, and leave North America, England, etc in mass to help Mother India.

I wouldn't mind if they left their 'fair' daughters, however.

Johnson said...

Indian American Here,

I agree in theory with what you're saying. We don't need the loans to succeed, and don't want to be perceived as having got something without putting in fair effort.

Steve, if you want your ideas on HBD to gain mainstream attention, you really have to get rid of the stormfront/white supremacist/Sarah Palin wing of your rhetoric which I see reflected in the comments.

We're going fora greater understanding of the social implications of scientific perspectives on human behavior, not fomenting white racial consciousness.

rec1man said...

Anon wrote - I guess he believes in HBD and doesn't know it.

--

Hmm remember the caste system

Anonymous said...

We're going fora greater understanding of the social implications of scientific perspectives on human behavior, not fomenting white racial consciousness.



What's your hang-up about "white racial consciousness"?

Indians are easily some of the most overtly racist people I've ever met.

Anonymous said...

'Steve, if you want your ideas on HBD to gain mainstream attention, you really have to get rid of the stormfront/white supremacist/Sarah Palin wing of your rhetoric...'

Any white person who pays attention to Steve Sailer is evil by definition, so even if he could censor out the evil neo-Nazis he'd be left with evil Christians, evil vegetarians, evil petting zoo-keepers, etc.

Tanstaafl said...

Steve, if you want your ideas on HBD to gain mainstream attention, you really have to get rid of the stormfront/white supremacist/Sarah Palin wing of your rhetoric which I see reflected in the comments.

You really have to move back to India. There's no stormfront/white supremacist/Sarah Palin wing there.

Mr. Anon said...

"Johnson said...

Steve, if you want your ideas on HBD to gain mainstream attention, you really have to get rid of the stormfront/white supremacist/Sarah Palin wing of your rhetoric which I see reflected in the comments."

Are you ignorant, or stupid? How could anyone lump Sarah Palin in with stormfront and white supremicists? She has nothing in common with such people, and she would be the first to condemn them. I don't want Sarah Palin to run for office, and I kinda just wish that she'd go away. But to imply she's a closet nazi is the kind of lowdown dishonest smear that one expects to see on Democratic Underground.

But thanks, Johnson, for flagging yourself as someone to ignore - I won't bother reading anything further you may post.

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

Steve, if you want your ideas on HBD to gain mainstream attention, you really have to get rid of the stormfront/white supremacist/Sarah Palin wing of your rhetoric which I see reflected in the comments.

Put yourself in our shoes, and know that most of the really offensive comments are just people venting steam.

Whites - non-Jewish whites, anyway - are held to an entirely separate, and far higher, standard from everyone else.

apple shoes said...

"Steve, if you want your ideas on HBD to gain mainstream attention, you really have to get rid of the stormfront/white supremacist/Sarah Palin wing of your rhetoric which I see reflected in the comments."

How did Sarah Palin get lumped in with Stormfront? lol. People with the least racial consciousness on Earth are White people, which is precisely the problem and why their are so many openly anti-White policies in America. Until every single anti-White policy is eliminated we need a White racial consciousness, more than ever.

Mark said...

Indians are easily some of the most overtly racist people I've ever met.

Summertimes some Indians gather for games of cricket in a nearby park - several dozen of them. Never a white person to be seen. Must not know any...

Wedding reception last summer at a 4-story reception center. Indian wedding reception on the first floor, Indian college graduation party on the other half of our floor. 100-200 guests at the Indian wedding reception: not a white person to be seen. 70 or so guests at the college grad party: maybe 2 whites, both part of mixed couples.

In a town << 1% Indian.

Overtly racist? Incredibly ethnocentric? You tell me.

Anonymous said...

I dunno. It took many many many more yrs for whites to say, 'we whites have decided no more special privileges for us over blacks, asians, browns, etc.'

yyuuiklo said...

"stormfront/white supremacist/Sarah Palin"

How did Palin get bunched with Stormfront?

What a dumbass!

uukioopek said...

I don't mind Hindus being clique-ish or Hasidim being clique-ish. Or Chinese in Chinatowns being clique-ish. Lots of Christian white folks in small town are clique-ish too. And of course the Amish. And Deadheads. Some of these people had to be clique-ish to survive. How could Hindus not be clique-ish when doing business in Africa? How could Chinese-Americans not be clique-ish when whites told em, 'stay in your chinatown, you chinamen' for much of the 20th century? And I suppose American Indians in reservations are clique-ish.

I don't see Clique-ish people doing much harm to us as they mind their own business. They leave others alone, others leave them alone, and that's that.

The problem is that liberal Jews and Wasps are always getting in our way, telling us what to think, what to do, what to blah blah blah. Liberal Jews may be clique-ish in their own way, but they don't just mind their own business like Hasidic Jews or Hindus do. They are always trying to influence, sticking their noses into other people's affairs.

A Hindu may only hire other Hindus, but he doesn't complain if an Italian restaurant owner hires only Italians or if an Irish businessmen only hires drunken Irish. It's the damn liberal Jews and WASPS who are always telling everyone they have be 'inclusive'.

gggtrreew said...

Ok, let's buy into the argument that blacks came here in chains, and after slavery was ended were then subject to decades of Jim "Crow and de facto discrimination, and American Indians were already here and conquered by whites and relegated to reservations...everybody else, Asian Indians, Hasidic Jews, etc CAME HERE VOLUNTARILY. Why should anyone else even be considered for special treatment?"

I suppose Jews can say they weren't kept out of elite institutions and country clubs until the 60s.

I suppose the Chinese can say they were worked like slaves to make the railroads and then forced to live only in ghettos or get beaten up.

I suppose Hindus might think Anglo-British = Anglo-American. Anglos are all part of the same imperialist family.
Hey, if Jews believe that American whites should share in the guilt of what Germans did, I suppose Hindus could say white Americans are no less guilty than British whites for imperialism in India. Brits ruled over Asian-Indians, and Ameriacan whites 'stole' the land from American-Indians--who were thought to be Indians by the first explorers. Both British rule over India and white settlement of America were based on the same assumptions: whites have the right to conquer other lands/peoples and rule over them.

Mexicans might argue they are the real natives of the Americas stolen by whites. Besides, US took the SW territories by war in the 1840s.

Laotians--especially if Hmong--might argue they were hired by the CIA to fight the communists and then betrayed and abandoned to die by Americans, and so America owes them something.

Etc, Etc, etc.

Look, if people wanna look for excuses, there's no end.

Patel Motel said...

I'd be all for getting rid of any special loans Indian-Americans get.

Problem is, many of your commenters, and perhaps you based on your detail-lacking post, overestimate how much effect these loans are contributing to In-Am success. For example, I don't know of a single person who has used these loans. My aunt and uncle owned a motel and they didn't use these programs. Granted, I simply may not know any better.

I'm curious--would any of the commenters claim that Jews an Chinese are successful mostly due to affirmative action (as was claimed by a few in a different post recently)?

As a physician, I can tell you that my ethnicity hurts me in my career aspirations. There are too many Indians in medicine and the highly competitive specialties spots in residencies and fellowship can only have so many Indians. I have to better than the white guy to have the same shot.

Truth(er) said...

"Problem is, many of your commenters, and perhaps you based on your detail-lacking post, overestimate how much effect these loans are contributing to In-Am success. For example, I don't know of a single person who has used these loans. My aunt and uncle owned a motel and they didn't use these programs. Granted, I simply may not know any better."

hahahahahaha... a whole community completely oblivious to the privileges they have under the law...

yeah...right.

Mark said...

Problem is, many of your commenters, and perhaps you based on your detail-lacking post, overestimate how much effect these loans are contributing to In-Am success.

I don't believe anyone here does that. I think people here are opposed on principle - Indians are new arrivals, do better educationally and financially than any other nationality, and have never been oppressed in this country, and yet are counted as a "socially disadvantaged group."

And no, denial of the right to immigrate here does not count as oppression.

There are too many Indians in medicine and the highly competitive specialties spots in residencies and fellowship can only have so many Indians. I have to [be] better than the white guy to have the same shot.

And the white guy has to do better than the black guy, and the Amerindian guy, and the Hispanic guy, and the woman...

Anonymous said...

I haven't bought a candy bar from a white man is 15 years.

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

I suppose Jews can say they were[] kept out of elite institutions and country clubs until the 60s.

The tradtional Anglo-American view of liberty is that private institutions, even businesses, have the right to discriminate in favor of or against whoever the hell they want to. Those private institutions - Harvard, for example - weren't founded or built by Jews. Private institutions are private property, after all. Only since the 50s has the view become that the government has the right to intrude into private decisions regarding association - and that tendency necessarily leads to an increasingly authoritarian government.

I suppose the Chinese can say they were worked like slaves to make the railroads and then forced to live only in ghettos or get beaten up.

They weren't worked like slaves - they wanted those jobs, and wanted to come here. The vast majority of Chinese-Americans today aren't descended from railroad builders but from very, very recent immigrants.

I haven't bought a candy bar from a white man is 15 years.

The Mars Family begs to differ.

stari_momak said...

Steve is once again the dark matter of the conservative interwebsphere.

One Abigail Thernstrom, 24 March 2010, abot 3:15 pm EDT, the corner.

In addition, the race/ethnic categories are a mess. For instance, East Indians are classified as Asians, but only because East Indian spokesmen in the 1980s pressured to have the group treated as a protected minority group by the Small Business Administration in order to get below-market-rate loans — even though East Indians generally have incomes far above the national average. The census picked up the classification from the SBA. It’s an arbitrary classification — and not uniquely so.

SKT said...

Indians aren't caucasians. Never were and never will be. Nor do we want to be caucasians.

SKT said...

BTW, I'm also an Indian in medicine, and I don't know of any Indians that took advantage of these low cost loans either. I think you greatly overestimate their importance in Indian success in the U.S. In fact I fully agree with you, get rid of the loans altogether.

rec1man said...

Mark wrote = Indians are new arrivals, do better educationally and financially than any other nationality, and have never been oppressed in this country, and yet are counted as a "socially disadvantaged group."
---

Indians have had the same history of oppression as Chinese - Riots and discriminatory laws - do google up Bellingham riots and Thind case

Johnson said...

Wow, tons of hate here on my comment. I know I struck a nerve.

You tell me that if I'm Indian I should go back to India?

Well guess what, alot of those Indians are going back to India and are starting companies that are going to be competing with (and beating) american companies because white ethno nationalists are too centric to accept the fact that there are talented non white people that can help America.

But either way, PRO WHITE RHETORIC WILL NEVER WORK POLITICALLY

You have to frame this issue in terms of:
fairness/equal playing field vs. spoils system

I've been totally shafted when it comes to job and college admissions. Most colleges and firms have the attitude that there are enough Indians so lets give more spots to blacks and Hispanics. I'd get into far more schools if I was a WASP.

Indians will get behind a color blind agenda. So readers here have to start distinguishing between productive minorities and unproductive minorities.

And to everyone calling Indians racist? Look, they are somewhat ethnocentric, but you're only looking at the first generation. Pretty much every Indian person I know (both men and women) have gone out with non Indians at some point. I have 3 cousins (men and women) in the US who have married non Indians.

You really think Bobby Jindal is going to be in favor of the spoils system?

Svigor said...

I dunno. It took many many many more yrs for whites to say, 'we whites have decided no more special privileges for us over blacks, asians, browns, etc.'

Many many many more years than what? Than it took browns/yellows/blacks/whomever to do it? Whites are the only ones to do it so I'm kinda at a loss as to WTF you're talking about.

Maybe we should just use a Universal Reciprocity rule. You know, for every white guy who gets AA in India, one Indian gets AA here. For every American immigrant to Mexico, we let in one Mexican. Et cetera.

Svigor said...

I suppose Jews can say they weren't kept out of elite institutions and country clubs until the 60s.

For every non-Jew refused immigration to Israel, one non-Gentile refused immigration to America.

Yep, I'm starting to like this Universal Reciprocity thing.

How 'bout it Steve? It's Universalist, fair, and way smarter than Citizenism.

Anonymous said...

A Hindu may only hire other Hindus, but he doesn't complain if an Italian restaurant owner hires only Italians or if an Irish businessmen only hires drunken Irish. It's the damn liberal Jews and WASPS who are always telling everyone they have be 'inclusive'.

This is the most intelligent comment here so far. I can only add that it is the rich WASPS that are forcing the poor WASPS (but never the Indians, and not often Italians and Irish) to be 'inclusive'.

n/a said...

"A Hindu may only hire other Hindus, but [. . .] It's the damn liberal Jews and WASPS who are always telling everyone they have be 'inclusive'."

So true. We need more Ramesh Ponnurus and fewer Jared Taylors.

"it is the rich WASPS that are forcing the poor WASPS"

Name them.

Anonymous said...

"Indians aren't caucasians. Never were and never will be. Nor do we want to be caucasians."

Why is your media full of stars who don't look Indian (look very different from the general population) and have more European features?

Why are whitening creams for men so popular?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f0K9ynvzjU

Anonymous said...

"it is the rich WASPS that are forcing the poor WASPS"

Name them.

Who, the rich WASPs or the poor WASPs?

It has been true for the last 30 years, that the brunt of academic and workplace PC, hate crime enforcement, and the like, has fallen on the lower-to-middle-class (and young) WASPs.

When was the last time one of the Kennedys or Rockefellers were fired from a job for not being PC enough?

Anonymous said...

Indians have had the same history of oppression as Chinese - Riots and discriminatory laws - do google up Bellingham riots and Thind case

So because some infinitesimal fraction of the Indian and Chinese populations to whom the vast majority of the current Indian and Chinese populations are not related suffered some small amount of very temporary "oppression" a century or so ago the whole of them should qualify for affirmative action and set-asides?

By that measure I'm an oppressed person, too. Hell, I actually have a small amount of Amerindian blood in me - I'm the original oppressed on this coninent, pal!

Tell me: how many of the Indians living here now had ancestors who suffered from that oppression here vs. the number who are descended from higher or middle casts of India who supported lower caste oppression there?

Indians will get behind a color blind agenda. So readers here have to start distinguishing between productive minorities and unproductive minorities.

Most of us have been doing that for a very long time. This is iSteve, not Stormfront.

I don't think most here think that Indian-American success is undeserved, even if we believe that we should take in fewer Indians in general. My complaint with Asian immigration is that is reducing the incentive for American students to pursue scientific careers, b) reducing pay for those who do, c) leading to the transfer of technology and jobs to India and China, and d) importing immigrants at a rate too high for assimilation.

Indians are smart, hardworking, and generally more law-abiding than the rest of us. The also seem to be veering off into their own little politically radicalized clique, and the larger their numbers the less likely they are to assimilate with the general population.

There is a reasonable question, then, about how many immigrants, of any particular nationality or in total, we should accept.

"it is the rich WASPS that are forcing the poor WASPS"

Mitt Romney, Bill Clinton, Al Gore John McCain, George W Bush, Lindsey Graham, half the CEOs of the Fortune 500, 90% of the clergy of mainstream Protestantism, 99% of the presidents of American colleges and universities, most lawyers, and most judges.

Shall I continue?

Some of them are doing it out of ego. Some get that mushy do-good feeling inside. Some do it because they're pressured to by minority interests groups. Some do it because they're radicals who hate American culture and hate Americans.

Mark said...

Indians have had the same history of oppression as Chinese - Riots and discriminatory laws - do google up Bellingham riots and Thind case

Denial of the right to immigrate does not qualify as oppression. Period.

If it did, how many countries am I being oppressed in without even knowing it - and probably with India among them?

The government is free to deny residency to any non-citizen for any reason, including their race. Constitutional protections do not apply to non-citizens.

Svigor said...

Indians aren't caucasians. Never were and never will be. Nor do we want to be caucasians.

I treat Caucasian and Caucasoid as synonymous (even though I use Caucasoid, not Caucasian). Given that, yes, Indians are Caucasian. I see white and European as narrower categories than Caucasoid and I don't consider Indians white or European.

Svigor said...

"Indians will get behind a color blind agenda. So readers here have to start distinguishing between productive minorities and unproductive minorities."

Most of us have been doing that for a very long time. This is iSteve, not Stormfront.


Heh, I have no problem distinguishing between productive non-white groups and unproductive ones. But there's production, and there's production. Which non-white groups produce white babies?

Tell it to the Israelis. I'm pegging my policies to theirs. I want for me and mine what they have for themselves. Want to "fix" me? Fix Israel first.

Svigor said...

Mitt Romney, Bill Clinton, Al Gore John McCain, George W Bush, Lindsey Graham, half the CEOs of the Fortune 500, 90% of the clergy of mainstream Protestantism, 99% of the presidents of American colleges and universities, most lawyers, and most judges.

So, when you say "WASP," what you really mean is "Americans of English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, or Northwest European ancestry, irrespective of religion." Okay.

Anonymous said...

A Hindu may only hire other Hindus, but he doesn't complain if an Italian restaurant owner hires only Italians or if an Irish businessmen only hires drunken Irish.



So if an IT company put up a "No Hindus Need Apply" sign, Hindus would be cool with that?

Let's be serious here. The reason that they have minority status is because they went to the government and begged for it. So can we please drop the fiction of the self-reliant, needs-no-help-from-the-state Hindu? Like every other obnoxious and cosseted minority in America, they depend on the state to funnel goodies to them. The chief goody of course is the US visa or green card.

Anonymous said...

"half the CEOs of the Fortune 500, 90% of the clergy of mainstream Protestantism, 99% of the presidents of American colleges and universities, most lawyers, and most judges."

Your pretty clueless if you think the above percentages represent non-hispanic non-jewish, non-peeps of color, much less WASPs.

Anonymous said...

There are very good practical reasons besides the caste system, and ethnocentrism on why Indians dont date
Americans

GNXP had an article on a survey in which , only 18% of American men will date an Indian woman ( the lowest is black women at 7% ) and only 3% of American women will date Indian men ( even below Asian men at 7% )

Any Indian trying to date an American is likely to end up with a Prole or a fat cougar
A much better alternative is to use the caste network to try to trade their money and education for an Indian woman who looks like a bollywood star

Indian women in USA are best described as Hindu American Princess and refuse to date anyone making less than $100K again for them, the caste network gives a better match

Anonymous said...

Anon wrote - Let's be serious here. The reason that they have minority status is because they went to the government and begged for it. tate to funnel goodies to them. The chief goody of course is the US visa or green card.

--
Some Patel Motels lobbied for this and the ones who opposed this were Chinese businessmen who had to share in the loot
Most Indians who are in professional fields are unaware of this and is of no use to them
--

Thanks to the internet and outsourcing, about 30% of all western white collar jobs are going to India without need for green card
S

Anonymous said...

Also, primary immigration by upper-middle class Indians has almost come to a halt

These days, most upper-middle class Indians go back to India, since they can get a salary 25% of the US salary,
with a cost of living 10% of the USA< due to the out-sourcing boom

Since 2000, over 50000 Green card holders have gone back to India from Silicon valley

Future immigration from India is likely to be more lower class

n/a said...

"When was the last time one of the Kennedys"

So, yeah, you have no idea what a "WASP" is.

Anonymous said...

The Government of India, Dept of Telecommunications, is banning all non-Indian engineers.

http://www.bradreese.com/blog/india-3-23-2010.htm

If my link doesn't work, see Brad Reese dot com.

Anonymous said...

Anon wrote - The Government of India, Dept of Telecommunications, is banning all non-Indian engineers.
--

The measure is aimed at Huawei and fears of chinese espionage

Anonymous said...

TI, GE, Boeing and hundreds of other tech companies have hired tens of thousands of Indian engineers at Bangalore and this sucks away, US engineering jobs even without immigration

Venture capitalists in silicon valley are demanding that half of new jobs be eventually moved to India

self-discrimination said...

"Indians will get behind a color blind agenda. So readers here have to start distinguishing between productive minorities and unproductive minorities."

This is a good point. I am starting to just refuse to fill out that little caveat to employment applications...you know, the one that wants to know how you identify "ethnically" and which is used to assure "lack of discrimination." Suddenly last summer, I twigged. Yeah, no discrimination against blacks, or against some Latino who just got here legally or illegally, or some "person of color." In other words, it is used to discriminate against me. And I sign my own non-job warrant.
So far I haven't submitted this commentary to the employers since I don't want to be a "troublemaker" but this timidity is not going to last. White people setting up discrimination against themselves is just getting increasingly delusional, irrational, self-destructive, unjust and just plain goofy.

willing wokers said...

"I suppose the Chinese can say they were worked like slaves to make the railroads and then forced to live only in ghettos or get beaten up."

They came willingly. Civil rights 19th century China were pretty much non-existent, so America was probably paradise by comparison. Except that in China everybody was Chinese.
They weren't treated any worse--probably better--than the Irish, who were used for the most dangerous jobs in the west and mid-west, including the railroads. A black co-worker quoted an employer from the 19th century South who preferred to hire Irish over blacks in a dangerous job because they couldn't afford to lose the blacks (they actually were slaves) while the Irish were cheap to lose.

power puff said...

Oh, and Johnson, don't predict that political "white power" will "never" work. That is only because there are still (just) enough whites that a lot of them feel safe. They aren't and that situation is changing fast. I myself feel extraordinarily different about all this than I did 20 years ago, not because I have changed but because conditions in this country have changed.

I know it's an emotional thing to say, but you wonder about the 650,000 who died during the Civil War, for "their" country, would have bothered if their descendants merely dismantled it and gave it away to China, India, and anybody else who could crash the doors. They probably would not be surprised at the "incentives" given to blacks or even Native Americans, but wtf do all these browns and yellows come in?

Anonymous said...

"TI, GE, Boeing and hundreds of other tech companies have hired tens of thousands of Indian engineers at Bangalore and this sucks away, US engineering jobs even without immigration"

Over the past 6-7 years in India, wages for IT professionals have shot up. They rise by double digit percentages every year and continue to do so. A starting engineer will earn 1/3 of what an American counterpart earns. And the wages are still rising at the same pace. So despite the overall economy of India being Africa like, the gap in IT engineering wages is closing. This seems to show that the talent pool in India is shallow.

I would not be overly concerned about outsourcing.

B Lode said...

Here is another modest proposal. Indians will gladly give up those grossly unfair set-asides as soon as colleges get rid of legacy admissions, or other clever admissions policies, such as “geographically diversity.”

I would take this deal in a heartbeat. This isn't a quid pro quo so much as a laundry list. I find it odd when I argue to forbid affirmative action (in all publicly-run institutions and those that take taxpayer money), people assume I support legacy admissions (in the same set). I happen to think legacy admissions are always stupid, but only should be banned in publicly-run institutions and those that take taxpayer money. Ditto for geographic diversity, although it's not as offensive an inversion of the concept of aristocracy as "legacy".

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

This isn't a quid pro quo so much as a laundry list. I find it odd when I argue to forbid affirmative action (in all publicly-run institutions and those that take taxpayer money), people assume I support legacy admissions (in the same set).

Let's restate this: whether I agree with them or not, legacy admissions are generally given by private universities. Private institutions, in theory, have the right to discriminate for or against whoever the hell they want.

Set-asides are granted - or mandated - by government. Government belongs to us all, and the government has no right to discriminate based on race.

Anonymous said...

I don't think Indians need, or want, special loans. One specific constituencey, Patel Motels, want this, but the rest of the community could care less, assuming they even know about it. Most Indians just want the chance to work hard and make their money legally here, either through software or small busines (motel, gas station, franchise outlet) or medicine/engineering. Among Indians, welfare and being poor is considered shameful. Not surprisingly, Indian-Americans have an astonishgly low percentage of people on government assistance.

There are more than a few Indians that are willing to immigrate to the U.S. and pay high taxes (in support of Medicare and SS for white retirees, and welfare/education for blacks and Latinos), work in hospitals in the ghetto and rural slums (who wants to work there?), open shops in socioeconomically deprived areas, and do crappy paying research jobs at the universities. As much as it pains you to admit it, Indians are productive and self-reliant members of the society.

Yes, lots of high paying jobs are now being outsourced to India because it's possible to hire good engineers at a fraction of the price. That's horrible for the working man of American, but there's not much you can do. In a free market economy, that's how it works out. When the British ruled India, they flooded the Indian market with cheap textiles and killed a huge domestic Indian industry. Today, the white and Jewish business leaders of America want to make an extra profit by hiring in India. They also are outsourcing lots of blue collar work to China.

Ironic that you guys like to blast "81 low IQ Indians" in one breath, but then turn around and damn us for stealing all the tech jobs.

As for ethnocentrism, most of the Indian ethnocentrism revolves around caste and language, which are major dividers among Indians. Not really nationality. To the extent that Indians play the status game, they do so against other subgroups of Indians. Not really whites or blacks or Latinos, who they don't socialize with much beyond work. For example, there is a bit of rivalry between North and South Indians. Among 2nd generation Indians, ethnocentrism is low enough that they tend to integrate well into American society.

Amit said...

As a physician, I can tell you that my ethnicity hurts me in my career aspirations. There are too many Indians in medicine and the highly competitive specialties spots in residencies and fellowship can only have so many Indians. I have to better than the white guy to have the same shot.

I am curious about how this works as my daughter may want to go into medicine. Since undergrad to superspecialty medical education only costs $500,000 in India, wouldn't it be better to study there to have more certainty? Are there any downsides to doing this?

Anonymous said...

Amit, the US medical system does not easily recognise Indian degrees

My brother was a cardiologist at AIMS, but they did not recognise the degree and he had to redo the degree in the US

Amit said...

I think they should look at caste data for Asian Indians to determine eligibility for assistance. With the growth in the Indian economy more backward castes like Hindu lower castes, Dalit Christians and Muslims are immigrating these days. Looking at the caste data would make sure that the people in greatest need are helped while the more prosperous types are cut off.

rec1man said...

Amit, most of us came to the USA to get away from caste affirmative action and those low caste Indians who want affirmative action can go back to India
and yes the SBA loans for Indians are unfair because it violates equal treatment under the law

Amit said...

rec1man,

For many decades, the policy followed by successive Nehru-Gandhi governments was to educate only the upper castes of India by keeping the lower castes out of school. Therefore it was only the upper castes who came to the USA via job based immigration. However a decade ago the Vajpayee government reversed this policy so all the lower caste people could go to school. These people are beginning to immigrate to the USA, but they don't have much in the way of support or resources, and their IQ potential is unknown. Therefore they should be eligible for affirmative action alongside other minorities.

I understand the point about desiring equal treatment under law, but as long as things like affirmative action exist in law, it would be malicious to deny it to lower caste Asian Indians who are barely getting started.

Anonymous said...

First of all, I dont see, why the USA natives should pay for social engineering in other countries. A sound immigration policy would ban groups that seek or need Affirmative action

And in the last 60 years, nobody prevented the lower castes from getting educated and no BJP regime did not change that

We have had 70% anti-brahmin quota in South India for 60 years and so the other 70% are lower castes

And untouchables and tribals have had 20% quota for the last 60 years

scoob said...

"SBA loans this" and "SBA loans that" and "oh those silly loans, yes those loans are a little naughty, those little loans are."

Those SBA loans are only one small part of the entire 'Minority Business Development' "section 8a set asides" and 10 percent price differential for so-called 'Socially and Economically Disadvantaged' immigrants. It's a huge, industrial sized, Gross Domestic Product sized mega-scam.

Think of just this one aspect (and there are many more) - if your Information Technology company founded by newly arrived, but well financed (by SBA, caste or clan networks, or Indian or Chinese billionaires) Indian or Chinese immigrants gets a 10 percent price advantage on virtually every government contract it bids on, over and over and over (think of an iterative process in computer modeling), who will come to completely dominate the largest sector of government contracting in an American economy that more and more is nothing more than government contracting.

Amit said...

First of all, I dont see, why the USA natives should pay for social engineering in other countries. A sound immigration policy would ban groups that seek or need Affirmative action

That's a possibility of course, but it is a separate discussion from the topic of the post.

And in the last 60 years, nobody prevented the lower castes from getting educated and no BJP regime did not change that

There have been quotas for many decades, and while some states have been better in this respect than others, the quotas were underutilized because very few lower castes were going to school. Education for everyone became a fundamental right only in 2002 via the 86th Constitutional amendment. And although the Vajpayee government got this pushed through, the Nehru-Gandhi government that followed has predictably excluded 0-6 and 14-18 year olds from the law that was passed to implement the right. Heck, there have been reports of little children being used as child labourers on the Commonwealth Games projects in Delhi this year.

Anonymous said...

Child labor exists due to poverty and lax enforcement of laws and not all poor are lower castes, the Sulabh toilet scheme employs thousands of poor brahmins as janitors

The compulsory education scheme like most other schemes is simply a feel good scheme without any teeth

Again, I dont see why US natives should pay for Indian social problems and there are plenty of white Americans who are poor and dont get help

Anonymous said...

scoob, I am opposed to every minority immigrant set aside
including the 10% price advantage

The only people who get advantage of this are SOME Patel motels

Amit said...

Child labor exists due to poverty and lax enforcement of laws and not all poor are lower castes, the Sulabh toilet scheme employs thousands of poor brahmins as janitors

Yes, it is true that not all poor are lower castes, but it is also true that the overwhelming majority of the poor are from the lower castes. And child labor exists because the political class wants it that way. I'd bet things would get fixed in a hurry if the Prime Minister or Child Development Minister was prosecuted for negligience in enforcement of laws all over.

Again, I dont see why US natives should pay for Indian social problems and there are plenty of white Americans who are poor and dont get help

Because as soon as these people get to the US, it becomes a US social problem - same as for any other minority.

The compulsory education scheme like most other schemes is simply a feel good scheme without any teeth

That's an interesting POV. Do you feel the same way about public education here in the US?

Anonymous said...

"The only people who get advantage of this are SOME Patel motels."

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have clearly never looked into this in the slightest.

Google "disadvantaged business" plus "information technology" plus "subcontinent asian"

Then google "Frank Islam", and INDUs Corp.

Spend some time looking at some of the categories in the various government spending database websites out there. Some of the biggest US Asian Indian technology companies in the country have no qualms about going after their "disadvantaged business" certification. And many of them are involved in facilitating the offshoring of American jobs. How FU'd is that? Not only are we going to discriminate against you, but we're going to do in favor of the guys who are taking your jobs.

Like Steve said, wouldn't it be great if some South Asian and/or Asian Pacific American individuals spoke out and said, hey, this is BS. Why is the USA government discriminating against the non-immigrant people of the USA? It's not only surreal, it's outrageous.

Anonymous said...

Frank Islam is a muslim name and I dont know anything about them

--
Google "disadvantaged business" plus "information technology" plus "subcontinent asian"
--

Most Indians are not businessmen and we have no problems in removing their quota privileges or prosecuting them for ethnic hiring

and yes, I stand against every form of direct and indirect quota or SBA loan for Indian immigrants

Now how about giving Indians the same admission standards as whites for college ?