July 29, 2010

Gypsy facts

Béla Janky's 2006 paper on Gypsies in Hungary, "The Social Position and Fertility of Roma Women," has lots of interesting facts from the big survey of Roma in 2003. For example, the overall Hungarian total fertility rate is 1.3 babies per woman per lifetime, but for Roma women in 2003, it was 3.0.

And Gypsy generation times are considerably shorter:
"Hungarian women today have their first child at the age of 27–28 ... Three in ten Roma women become mothers before they reach the age of 18 and around two-thirds have their first child at the age of 20 at the latest."

Some other interesting facts from Janky:

- The employment rate of male Gypsies 15-59 in Hungary fell from 85% in 1971 under the Communism dictatorship to 29% in 2003. For Gypsy women, only 16% are now working.

- In 2003, only 5% of Gypsies aged 20-24 had graduated from high school.

For more on Gypsies, here's my 2004 VDARE article.

50 comments:

David Davenport said...

Trust no Soviet era socio-economic statistics.

KingM said...

Wow, that sounds like the collapse of Hungary in another generation or two.

Anonymous said...

I've got Roma relatives (from former Yugoslavia) on my mother's side-- boy is that one f'ed up, dysfunctional culture. It's hard to know how much of it (clannishness, hostility to formal education, unapologetic willingness to take advantage of outsiders) is a reaction to centuries of European racism and how much of it actually inspired that racism to begin with, but either way...yeesh. One suspects that because Roma aren't that much darker than their European neighbors (and there's a lot of internal variation), a lot of the smarter, more ambitious Gypsies have quietly left their tribes and assimilated into the European mainstream over the centuries. And the ones who haven't aren't as dumb as a lot of the testing would indicate-- they're quite clever when they need to be, but often don't speak European languages very well and are brought up in a culture that doesn't have much use for formal education.

Anonymous said...

And the ones who haven't aren't as dumb as a lot of the testing would indicate-- they're quite clever when they need to be, but often don't speak European languages very well and are brought up in a culture that doesn't have much use for formal education.

Testing indicates the Amish are smart - smarter than the average white American. How backwards is there culture, and what use do they have of "formal education"?

I do, however, like your idea that the clever Roma leave the tribe, as this would certainly compel future generations of Roma to more of the same dysfunctional culture.

Anonymous said...

Any DNA information on the Roma?

Kent Gatewood

Edward said...

Sorry, I mean't "their"!

I'll just add that Roma could be the anti-Jews. They exist due to the same social processes.

Edward said...

Actually I think I mean't "they're" but I can't remember what I wrote.

(Can I blame the drink?)

Please mod, correct my grammar for me.

Anonymous said...

"The Roma champion helping gipsies steal £3m benefits in UK"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1297764/The-Roma-champion-helping-gipsies-steal-3m-benefits.html#ixzz0v6czmpn5

Fred said...

Any connection with the Irish Travelers?

agnostic said...

"It's hard to know how much of it [...] is a reaction to centuries of European racism"

Probably none of it, given that all their stereotypical activities were there during Ottoman rule of southeastern Europe. The Ottomans were neither Europeans nor racists. In fact, they tried to bully the non-Gypsy locals into not retaliating, etc., as violence would disrupt the steady flow of tribute monies. They were just supposed to sit there and take it.

Anonymous said...

Back when I was a social worker for the San Francisco welfare department there was always a gypsy caseload. They were the only ethnic minority that was so segregated. The department had learned from bitter experience that the gypsies were too tricky for the typical young unsuspecting social worker.

As I remember the record for duplicate cases was 26. That is to say, a black woman received 26 checks under 26 different identities. Pimps used to drive their girls around all the Bay Area counties establishing fraudulent cases as they went.

But the department expected the mostly young white women to be able to cope with black fraud, it was the gypsies they feared.

This was the late sixties, maybe all that has changed now.

Albertosaurus

jody said...

i recently saw some digital photographs from a women's prison in romania. i would say about 20% of the prisoners were gypsy women, a lot darker than the romanian women.

Anonymous said...

The Roma of course originated from India.

I wonder if they're related to other nomadic Indian tribes that were branded "criminal tribes" in India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denotified_tribes_of_India

A whole bunch of Indian liberals have whined about how India continues to mistreat these glorious citizens of an even more glorious nation.

Anonymous said...

More gypsy facts:

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Gypsies

Warning for shocked libtards: Politically incorrect truths in there!

catperson said...

I'll just add that Roma could be the anti-Jews. They exist due to the same social processes.

Both Roma and Ashkenazi Jews are non-white caucasoids who have IQ's very different from the majority of non-white caucasoids. Askenazi score way higher, while gypsies scored way lower. Both migrated to Europe after leaving their ancestral Southern Asian homeland though Ashkenazi were able to return after persecution in World War II while gypsies were not able to land the same opportunity despite also being persecuted.

bgc said...

Roma/ Gypsy IQ is probably about two standard deviations lower than the usual European IQ

J. Philippe Rushton, Jelena Čvorovićb and Trudy Ann Bonsa. General mental ability in South Asians: Data from three Roma (Gypsy) communities in Serbia. Intelligence. Volume 35, Issue 1, January-February 2007, Pages 1-12

Abstract

To examine whether the Roma (Gypsy) population of Serbia, like other South Asian population groups, average lower than Europeans on g, the general factor of intelligence, we tested 323 16- to 66-year-olds (111 males; 212 females) in three different communities over a two-year-period on the Raven's Colored and/or Standard Progressive Matrices and four measures of executive function. Out of the total of 60 Matrices, the Roma solved an average of 29, placing them at the 3rd percentile on 1993 U.S. norms, yielding an IQ equivalent of 70. On the executive function tests, the Roma averaged at about the level of Serbian 10-year-olds. The Matrices showed a small mean sex difference favoring males. External validity was demonstrated by correlating the scores on Matrices with measures such as cranial capacity (r = 0.13, P < 0.01), spousal similarity (r = 0.17, P < 0.05), age at birth of first child (r = 0.26, P < 0.01), number of offspring (r = − 0.20, P < 0.01), and responsible social attitudes (r = 0.10, P < 0.05). Comparisons with extant data showed that items found difficult or easy by the Roma were those found difficult or easy by White, Indian, Colored, and Black South African 14- to 16-year-olds and by Black South African undergraduates (rs = 0.90). There was no evidence of any idiosyncratic cultural effect. Instead, Roma/non-Roma differences were found to be most pronounced on g. This was shown by item-total correlations (estimates of the item's g loading), which predicted the magnitude of Roma/non-Roma differences on those same items, regardless of from which sample the item-total correlations were calculated, and by confirmatory factor analysis. The results indicate the remarkable cross-cultural generalizability of item properties across South Asians, Europeans, and sub-Saharan Africans and that these reflect g more than culturally specific ways of thinking.

catperson said...

One suspects that because Roma aren't that much darker than their European neighbors (and there's a lot of internal variation), a lot of the smarter, more ambitious Gypsies have quietly left their tribes and assimilated into the European mainstream over the centuries. And the ones who haven't aren't as dumb as a lot of the testing would indicate-- they're quite clever when they need to be, but often don't speak European languages very well and are brought up in a culture that doesn't have much use for formal education.

Rushton did the first study on Roma adults and found an average IQ of only about 70 on the culture reduced Raven progressive matrices. This is a full SD below non-white caucasoids reared in third world countries with severe malnutrition. It's hard to explain why Roma score so much lower than other South Asians but one possibility is that IQ tests are culturally biased against them given that most have very little education. I like to think that non-verbal tests like the Raven are culture fair, but perhaps people who have hardly been to school never develop the habbit of sitting at a desk and concentrating on any mental problem so no such test can reflect their full potential. One reason for thinking their scores are impaired by lack of schooling is that one study of gypsies found that their IQ's declined as they go from early childhood to adulthood.

Paavo said...

There has been some discussion ( at least in the internet) in Finland about roma lately as one roma man recently released from his life sentence for a murdering his wife (and there was one suspected homicide before that) shot three greasers in a dispute at mcdonalds drive in.

Anyway. Roma are 0,2% of finnish population, and suspected in 18% of muggings. 50% are unemployed. But that doesn't mean that others would be employed. One of the ethic slurs is early retired because according to stereotype many roma's are declared unable to work. 25% don't finish elementary school.

The amount of indigenous roma in Finland is not growing because fair amount of roma leave their culture and easily assimilate. I've dated and been friends with "ethnic" or "racial" roma, but I don't really have sympathy for the culture or the roma who wear their roma uniform. The finnish roma men dress up like taxi drivers in the fifties and women wear late 19th century folk dresses with extra bling.

Anonymous said...

Gypsies are a pain in the ass. Slovakia, Romania and Hungary are going to be ruined by gypsies in our lifetime.

Also, Germans are going to prevent those nations from taking defensive actions to save themselves.

So long as SWPL Germans insist on doing that, I hope gypsies continue to ruin Germany, in typical Gypsy fashion. That's what it is going to take to fix things. I hope we have lots of gypsies stealing in Munich and Hamburg; that's what it will take to save the rest of Europe.

Geoff Matthews said...

Irish Travelers have an Irish racial background, so they are different in that respect from the Romas. Wikipedia lists more than a few boxers as Irish Tinkers.

Anonymous said...

One suspects that because Roma aren't that much darker than their European neighbors

Im not sure thats true.

In Britain we've recently had our diversity has been enriched by an inlflux of Roma. To me they look as much Indian as European, I wouldnt mistake them for being darker Europeans.

Its hard to know just whats going on with them. I suspect they are popping up in various crime stories. But the MSM insist on referring only to eastern Europeans or if pushed Romanians. Only as a last resort will they "Name The Roma", even then they will petulantly refer to a group (of shoplifters fo example) as 'mostly' Roma. Always trying to imply a mulicultural eneterprise where there is none. Im pretty sure Romanians arent too pleased about this. They get shafted by the MSM but any complaint they make can be dismissed as racism.

Of course we have Gypsies in the UK. Although they claim to be Roma its clear, now we can see the real thing, that they are quite interbred with the locals. In a way the mainland Roma are not.

I suspect that the Roma are distinct both culturally and ethnically from the majority. In the UK our Gypsies are more distinct in lifestyle and less so ethnically.

Anonymous said...

Testing indicates the Amish are smart - smarter than the average white American.

Study says Amish expanding westward
By - Associated Press
7:23 p.m., Wednesday, July 28, 2010
washingtontimes.com

HARRISBURG, Pa. | The search by the booming North American population of Amish for affordable, fertile farmland has produced settlements in 28 states and Ontario — and has even led parties to scout recently for suitable properties in Alaska and Mexico.

A new study estimates the number of Amish has increased nearly 10 percent in the past two years alone, to a total population of around 249,000, compared with about 227,000 in 2008. That figure was just around 124,000 in 1992. Nearly all Amish descended from a group of about 5,000 in the early 20th century...

anony-mouse said...

A lot of the even faster procreating ultra-Orthodox Jews came from Hungary.

But the Hungarians got their wish and are now much more fortunate and undoubtedly happy as a result.

Kylie said...

Thank God for the Atlantic Ocean.

rightsaidfred said...

Testing indicates the Amish are smart - smarter than the average white American.

Links? I met an itinerant teacher who wasn't too impressed during her stints in Amish schools.

Topiary Utopia said...

George Borrow—the nineteenth-century romantic traveler who went into Spain to sell Bibles—was sympathetic to Gypsies and found their culture and customs fascinating. They feature prominently in his travel account.

ATBOTL said...

This is a very low IQ population. It would be expected that they are high in social pathology.

---------

"A lot of the even faster procreating ultra-Orthodox Jews came from Hungary.

But the Hungarians got their wish and are now much more fortunate and undoubtedly happy as a result."

Jews in Hungary once served as "tax collectors" for the king and were heavily involved with communism in that country, so they aren't very popular with the Hungarian people.

Anonymous said...

Links? I met an itinerant teacher who wasn't too impressed during her stints in Amish schools.

Here's the webcache of the link. Can't access the original post.

Mean IQ Scores of Amish Pupils and Control Group in Grade 8, SRA Tests of Educational Ability
Subtest/Group Amish Control
Language 91.1 99.4
Reasoning 103.1 102.4
Quantitative Analysis 102.6 98.1
Composite Score 96.7 99.5


Amish out-performed the control group on reasoning and quantitative analysis but struggled on language. That may be because they took the test in English, their second language.

Big bill said...

"It's hard to know how much of it [...] is a reaction to centuries of European racism"

Very little, I think. Differences in survival mechanisms cause them to thrive at the expense of the host society, and after a while the host society throws them off. An intereting case on point are the ultra-orthodox Jews. They have 8-10 children, live in poverty, the men avoid work so they can study in married men's schools called "kollels".

Your typical Israeli Jew, in contrast, has assimilated to Euro gentile standards over the last 200 years and has 1-2 kids.

If you go to the Failed Messiah website or Google "riot Haredim site:il" or "fraud Haredim site:il" you will see that the ultra-religious Jews also massively scam the Westernized Jews in Israel with all sorts of welfare, housing, and education frauds.

So it isn't Evull Xtians (aka antisemitism, aka "centuries of oppression in Europe") it's just a very deliberate, isolated hyper-fecund way of life. Think "Mormon polygamy cult" and you will be much closer to the truth.

If these ultra-religious Jews talk about moving to your area you had best watch out. The folks in Postville, Iowa learned the hard way what it feels like to be viewed as sub-human marks to be played. Again, go visit Failed Messiah or Google the Israeli sites.

I think they are fascinating. Both gypsies and these traditionalist Jews have found a parasitic evolutionary niche that lets them survive and breed like crazy. As long as they don't kill their host culture (which many Westernized Jews fear they are going to do in Israel) they do ok. But once their numbers become too great, orcthe host culture gets "sick" (eg a Depression) then watch out!

Dahinda said...

There is an Amish area just south of where I live and I don't know if they are smarter in general that the "English" but they are sure shrewd in business. If they would embrace the modern world and still remain a cohesive group they would give the Jews, Armenians and other such groups a run for their money (so to speak).

Irish Travellers are a lot like the gypsies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller

Anonymous said...

A little off-topic:

Getting Into Med School Without Hard Sciences
By ANEMONA HARTOCOLLIS
Published: July 29, 2010
nytimes.com

For generations of pre-med students, three things have been as certain as death and taxes: organic chemistry, physics and the Medical College Admission Test, known by its dread-inducing acronym, the MCAT...

one of the nation’s top medical schools admits a small number of students every year who have skipped all three requirements...

They forgo organic chemistry, physics and calculus - though they get abbreviated organic chemistry and physics courses during a summer boot camp run by Mount Sinai. They are exempt from the MCAT...

they were more than twice as likely to train as psychiatrists (14 percent compared with 5.6 percent of their classmates)...

Sheila said...

The Roma in Bulgaria, at least when I was there in the late '80s early '90s, were much darker than the native population (which itself varied from blond Slavs to almost Turks) and their Indian ancestry was clearly evident. They lived in camps and were universally reviled by the Bulgarians. A black family at the Embassy adopted a Roma boy; his skin color was only a tad lighter than theirs. Each time they got him for a visit prior to the adoption, they had to delouse him. Just substitute "Gypsy" for Czech or Hungarian every time you read of a scam in Britain or Europe, and you'll be on the right track.

Anonymous said...

Reply to AGNOSTIC:

"The Ottomans weren't racist"...

That may be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Alos to some other posters:

The Irish travellers have absolutely nothing to do with the Indian sub-continent descended Roma gypsies. The former emerged after the terrible wars in Ireland during the 1640's and 50's. They were displaced people who had to keep moving around.

Edward said...

Gypsy woman with an MSc in European Social Policy (we must assume IQ ~ 115) took a campaign against "gypsy racism" to the UN whilst helping them steal £3m from UK taxpayer. Amazingly she is pictured holding up a sign which spells racism "RASISM", which is ironic whether you think she did it deliberately or whether you do not.

To be fair the gypsy extended family likely puts a lot of pressure on its smartest brethren to use their education to help other gypsies. The easiest - if not only - way for them to do that is through criminal activity. The smarter gypsies face an unenviable choice either to engage in criminal activity to help the group or to go straight and leave the group altogether, taking their genetic package with them.

Anonymous said...

There's an extremely funny book by the crime fiction writer Joe Gores called 32 Cadillacs. It's about tracking down the guilty American Rom persons who have stolen 32 Cadillacs in a short period of time to, er, honour the funeral of a prominent "Gypsy" leader.

Mr Gores (b 1931) is a former repo man and private eye, who is also a Californian. He is considered by some to be the natural heir to Dashiell Hammett, and who wrote a novel about the earlier writer.

Clio

Laban said...

I don't know about the Roma, but in the UK, while 'travellers' don't win many prizes for maths, they seem to be able to count pretty well.

They have an excellent grasp of UK planning law as well.

Ever wondered what would happen if someone from the straight world pulled their caravan up on a traveller site ?

Chuck said...

"It's hard to know how much of it [...] is a reaction to centuries of European racism"

One problem with the whole racism caused the clannishness is that we don't see Huns in Europe. Huns looked different and acted different but melted into the population -- giving Eastern Europeans that more Eastern look:

From Wiki:
"They made their foes flee in horror because their swarthy aspect was fearful, and they had, if I may call it so, a sort of shapeless lump, not a head, with pin-holes rather than eyes. Their hardihood is evident in their wild appearance, and they are beings who are cruel to their children on the very day they are born. For they cut the cheeks of the males with a sword, so that before they receive the nourishment of milk they must learn to endure wounds. Hence they grow old beardless and their young men are without comeliness, because a face furrowed by the sword spoils by its scars the natural beauty of a beard. They are short in stature, quick in bodily movement, alert horsemen, broad shouldered, ready in the use of bow and arrow, and have firm-set necks which are ever erect in pride. Though they live in the form of men, they have the cruelty of wild beasts."[6]"

Anonymous said...

Gypsies may have originated in India, but they're interbred very extensively with Middle Eastern and European populations. Much of the introgression of foreign genes likely happened through prostitution (very common among gyspy women), slavery, and baby snatching (also common). For the gypsy population to have expanded from a few thousand to a few million, despite the Holaucast and historically poor life expectancy, couldn't have happened without some pretty extensive out marriage.

Gypsies look more European than Indian, with most having brunette hair. They most closely resemble the Turks and near easterners, who they lived alongside for centuries.

Anonymous said...

The Vlach Roma were actually held in chattel slavery until the 1860s, so yes Virginia, there was real life European racial discrimination against the Roma going back a long time.

The Roma have a really weird and singular history, too. Linguistic and cultural evidence suggests they were a Rajput military expedition against India's Muslim invaders that got cut off behind enemy lines and kept (along with their camp followers) moving westward over the generations. Gadje-- the Romany word for non-Gypsy, basically translates literally as "civilian."
And color me skeptical that it's a population with 70 IQs. There's too much cleverness at work when it comes to high skill things like metalworking, and it takes a certain level of braininess to be able to manipulate people through fortune telling as well. The Roma are a group with a deeply dysfunctional culture, but they don't seem to be dumb.

Truth said...

"The Roma are a group with a deeply dysfunctional culture, but they don't seem to be dumb."

IQ IS culture; No deviance.

(Oh lord, another Newbie here?!?!?)

Anonymous said...

Laban: Ever wondered what would happen if someone from the straight world pulled their caravan up on a traveller site ?

Wow.

The article is scary, but the comments which follow it are simply terrifying.

England is doomed.

The nihilism has rotted through Her core - there's nothing left.

PS: Speaking of which, check out the latest from England's Savior [courtesy of Lucianne Goldberg].

Laban said...

Romany Gipsies vs Irish Tinkers in 1854.

Laban said...

(Accurate IMHO) stereotyping of travellers - in Britain stamped on by local government, in the Land of the Free practised by local government.

Doug1 said...

catperson--

One reason for thinking their scores are impaired by lack of schooling is that one study of gypsies found that their IQ's declined as they go from early childhood to adulthood.

It is generally the case that IQ's more closely correlate to that of parents in developed countries as children grow older and become young adults. Genetics takes over more as we grow older; we create our own environments. Smarter people tend to love to learn new abstract things; less bright people tend not to.

Doug1 said...

The Vlach Roma were actually held in chattel slavery until the 1860s, so yes Virginia, there was real life European racial discrimination against the Roma going back a long time.

Given how they've had a culture of thievery, fraud and swindling, and in modern welfare states parasitism, for as far back as we have solid historical evidence, it's hardly any wonder. Or that they'd get kicked out/ethnically cleansed from some places.

ATBOTL said...

"And color me skeptical that it's a population with 70 IQs. There's too much cleverness at work when it comes to high skill things like metalworking, and it takes a certain level of braininess to be able to manipulate people through fortune telling as well. The Roma are a group with a deeply dysfunctional culture, but they don't seem to be dumb."

They are dumber than rocks, but highly extroverted, like blacks. It doesn't take high IQ to trick people or bang metal.

Anonymous said...

"The Vlach Roma were held in chattel slavery until the 1860's"..

So was just about everyone else in that part of Europe. Czarist Russia didn't end serfdom until 1861. Russian and Ukranian peasants were hardly any better off then their medieval counterparts. Even in more advanced parts of Europe tenant farmers in the British Isles grinded out the most miserable existence. Look at the horrors that befell Irish tenant farmers adn their families during the famine and beyond. Even the good old USA didn't end slavery until 1863. So don't feel too bad for the Roma. They have been a bane on Europe since their uninvited arrival.

Anonymous said...

The term "Roma" for gypsy is a recent politically correct phenomenon.

In Hungary, the word for gypsy is/was "cigány" (roughly pron: tsee-gahn-ye).

It is not an uncommon last name. Usually spelled in the old style of spelling: Czigány

For example, this women is a Hungarian canoe-ist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinga_Czig%C3%A1ny

However, thanks to lefty Hungarians and lefty NGOs, the use of cigány is now considered a pejorative.

Which it isn't.

Funnily enough, in Hungary, "Roma" is now being left behind for a NEW-NEW politically correct term.

"Kreol bőrű". (Translation: "Creole-skinned.")

This is not a joke. This is very similar to the ongoing (and never-ending) politically correct evolution of

colored --> negro --> black --> african-american

I think Steve has written about this before.

-Varangy

catperson said...

It is generally the case that IQ's more closely correlate to that of parents in developed countries as children grow older and become young adults. Genetics takes over more as we grow older; we create our own environments. Smarter people tend to love to learn new abstract things; less bright people tend not to.

While it’s true that IQ becomes more genetic with age, the explanation you provide seems nonsensical, though it’s one that many eminent authorities invoke. If intelligent people are more likely to create stimulating environments, this would be true whether their high IQ was caused by genes or environment, so why would only genetically intelligent people create stimulating environments? Wouldn’t people who obtained their high IQ through good early environments also want to learn abstract concept too, causing their early environmental advantage to multiply? Unless you are suggesting that people with environmental high IQ are not actually as intelligent as their IQ's suggest which brings me to my next point.

According to Jensen, the preponderance of evidence suggests that g cannot be increased through intellectual stimulation, and while it's possible that such stimulation may artificially inflate ones score on an IQ test, such gains would be hollow with respect to g. So, are you suggesting that people with high genetic g are more likely to artificially inflate their IQ?

The problem with that argument is that the phenomenon of heredity increasing with age is not restricted to IQ. It even extends to physical traits like height. So do people with genes for being tall decide to artificially increase their height (elevator shoes)?

Clearly a better explanation for the phenomenon of rising heredity is needed than good genes cause one to create good environments. Regardless of the explanation for the phenomena itself, the phenomena may explain the decline in Roma IQ with age, however the age related increase in genetics would have to be quite large to explain such a precipitous age related decline in IQ.

Chuck said...

As with some of our other well discussed friends, it seems there are always 2 sides to the story:

Leeson, Gypsies.
"Gypsies believe the lower half of the human body is invisibly polluted, that super- natural de…lement is physically contagious, and that non-Gypsies are spiritually toxic. I argue that Gypsies use these beliefs, which on the surface regulate their invisible world, to regulate their visible one. They use superstition to create and enforce law and order. Gypsies do this in three ways. First, they make worldly crimes supernatural ones, leveraging fear of the latter to prevent the former. Second, they marshal the belief that spiritual pollution is contagious to incentivize collective punishment of antisocial behavior. Third, they recruit the belief that non-Gypsies are supernatural cesspools
to augment such punishment. Gypsies use superstition to substitute for traditional institutions of law and order. Their bizarre belief system is an e¢ cient institutional response to the constraints they face on their choice of mechanisms of social control."
http://www.peterleeson.com/Gypsies.pdf