August 21, 2011

Great moments in privatization

From the New York Daily News on the next phase in the Vulcan Society v. Fire Department of New York disparate impact discrimination lawsuit:
The controversial upcoming FDNY [Fire Department New York] exam will be the most expensive test in the city's history, the Daily News has learned. 
The new civil service test, ordered by a Brooklyn federal judge who declared that previous FDNY exams discriminated against minorities, is expected to cost the city more than $3.3 million to develop and administer, officials said. 
The cost of the previous Fire Department exam, given in 2007, was $1.3 million, according to officials at the Department of Citywide Administrative Services. 
The huge jump in cost hasn't sat well in City Hall. "This litigation has forced some very costly mandates on the city for the development and administration of the test," said Julie Wood, spokeswoman for Mayor Bloomberg. "We have to pay for them." 
Judge Nicholas Garaufis last year demanded that the city alter its method of recruiting firefighters and blocked the FDNY - which is 91% white - from hiring any candidates until a new test was created. The judge also mandated that the new test be created by an outside developer, instead of within DCAS - the agency that normally creates the city's exams. 
The city hired California-based PSI Services to develop and give the test, which is expected to be given in the first few months of 2012. 
The requirement to hire an expensive outside consultant has sent costs soaring, City Hall insiders grumbled.

This is the golden age of for-profit psychometrics. A big driving force is the following logic:

- We are unsatisfied with the disparate impact of the current test.

- Since, as everyone knows, it's racist to say that there is anything unsatisfactory about minority test-takers, therefore the test must be unsatisfactory.

- Ergo, we should hire an expensive psychometric consulting firm on a cost-plus contract to finally design a non-discriminatory test from scratch that won't have disparate impact. Obviously, the only possible reason that none of the countless tests already created eliminated disparate impact is that they weren't trying hard enough. So, if we have to spend an extra million or two million dollars to get the Platinum Premium custom-designed test that will finally overcome disparate impact, then it's well worth it. (Subsidiary logic: Pay no attention to results in other cities during the last several decades. Otherwise, you might learning something, and learning is racist. If you do ever let yourself notice that everybody else has failed at what you plan to do, reassure yourself that the reason all these other cities have failed to find the holy grail of the fire department test without disparate impact is because they were not as pure of heart as you are.)

Lather, rinse, and repeat ad infinitum. Hey, it's a living for testing firms.

70 comments:

Anonymously Yours, Anonymous said...

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the FDNY exemplary? Are the citizens of NY disatisfied with the service of their Fire Departments? Is there any support for this change that doesn't come from special interests?

Also, I worry that this "fixing" the test sends a message to Fire Chiefs: hire more non-whites or else. It goes without saying that they would do best to hire the best applicants, and anything that goes against that principal will make the FDNY worse, not better. Seems like the government, for lack of evidence that discrimination exists, is trying to create some.

Anonymous said...

"It is the low drive for sameness and the hatred of otherness that characterizes all forms of leftism, which inevitably are totalitarian because, defying the divine diversity of the universe, these ideologies want to convert us by force to sameness -- sameness being the brother of equality. The leftist vision enjoins uniformity: the nation with one leader, one party, one race, one language, one class, one type of school, one law, one custom, one level of income, and so forth. Since nature provides diversity, this deadening sameness can be achieved only by brute force, by leveling, enforced assimilation, exile, genocide. All forms of totalitarianism, all leftist ideologies, reaching their culmination in the French, Russian, and German Revolutions, have gone that way -- with the aid of guillotine, gallows, gas chambers, and Gulag."

The Principles of The Portland Declaration; Erik Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn (1909 - 1999)

The first 6 points of Portland Declaration:

1. Our immensely complex universe can only be the result of either mere chance or a conscious design. We believe that it has an Originator as well as a Designer-- God.
2. Only to man can this world be meaningful in every respect: spiritually, morally, aesthetically, economically.
3. Only man is a transcendent creature. He realizes that, if there is a personal God, everything is possible, if there is no God, everything is permissible.
4. Every man or woman is truly a person and unique. No two persons are identical or equal, least of all in the eyes of God.
5. With the beasts we share a craving for sameness, but the delight in the variations of creation distinguishes man from beast as much as religion and reason do.
6. Sameness and with it the dislike of otherness is the hallmark of leftism: it is an evil totalitarian instinct which fashioned the French, Russian and German revolutions with their gaols("jail"), guillotines, gallows, gas chambers and Gulags.

Anonymous said...

Cognitive dissonance has its arbitrage opportunities.

Anonymous said...

So they dumb down the test so anyone breathing can pass and then do race norming anyway.

Mondragon said...

But diversity is so good for the bottom line.


U.S. Postal Service Voted No. 1 For Supplier Diversity

http://www.postalreporternews.net/2011/05/24/u-s-postal-service-voted-no-1-for-supplier-diversity/


USPS broke by August 2012, No. 2 official predicts

http://www.federaltimes.com/article/20110821/DEPARTMENTS02/108210301/1018/DEPARTMENTS

Steve Sailer said...

"Cognitive dissonance has its arbitrage opportunities."

Especially when cognitive dissidence is unthinkable.

Anonymous said...

Hence the comparative advantage of the Chinese - when they get test results that say something like this, they accept them. We pay for another test!

Anonymous said...

"Especially when cognitive dissidence is unthinkable."

Yeah, and ironically it's "unthinkable" primarily by the cognitively "enhanced," I'll call them, while the more cognitively "challenged" are quite aware of and willing to state aloud that no two brains are equal.

I guess it takes a pretty dumb person to be smart, huh?

Anonymous said...

Diversity Plus Corporation IQ Test

Are you black? (Office use only: Add 15)

{Rest of test goes here.}

anony-mouse said...

1/ Look at it this way. At least the test-designing firms must hire a lot of intelligent people. And its doubtful that those employees will be non-Americans, since I doubt very many non-Americans can get their minds around the concepts of creating tests that only sort of test what is needed.

2/ I suspect most New Yorkers approve of this kind of thing, and it will be New Yorkers who will suffer the consequences, so in that sense this situation is fair.

TH said...

Michael McDaniel has written a rather amusing academic article titled Gerrymandering in personnel selection: A review of practice. Some quotes:

Gerrymandering is typically in conflict with the goals of a merit based personnel selection system which seeks to hire the most qualified applicant for a job. Gerrymandering efforts focused on groups are typically an attempt to subvert merit-based personnel selection in favor of some other goal such as racial or gender diversity. The author knows of no example where gerrymandering efforts focused on groups were consistent with the goal of a merit-based personnel selection practice. -- Although gerrymandering is usually in conflict with merit-based goals, it is consistent with other goals, such as increasing the demographic diversity of organizations or promoting the growth and stability of political organizations.

He then describes various gerrymandering strategies, all of which have actually been used by many employers in America:

Strategy 1: remove cognitively-loaded tests from the selection system. A highly effective method for improving the scores of minority applicants is to remove cognitively-loaded personnel selection tools from the selection system (Ployhart & Holtz, 2008). Cognitively-loaded tests would include job knowledge measures and any test assessing technical skills or other learned expertise.

...

Strategy 4: use selection measures requiring human judges. Select human judges motivated to hire specific groups or individuals. Assessment centers are often favored by those seeking to reduce demographic related adverse impact (Dean, Roth, & Bobko, 2008). For example, local government jurisdictions may use an assessment center to hire candidates for police positions in hopes of obtaining minimal adverse impact. This practice may be a response to alleged federal government agency pressure to enforce more equal outcomes in hiring for public safety positions. To gerrymander the selection system, the assessment center can be staffed with raters who are motivated to ensure the hiring of more minorities.

...

Strategy 5: use low cut off scores. Many selection batteries are scored so as to classify the applicants into two groups: those eligible for hire and those not eligible (“banding and score adjustments”, Ployhart & Holtz, 2008, p. 160). The lower one sets the cut-off score, the more minorities will be in the hiring eligible group. To be most effective as a racial gerrymandering method, the test scores of those in a band are not presented to those making the hiring decisions. If the scores were available to the hiring decision maker, they could be used to select the most qualified candidates who, on average, would less likely be the minority applicants.

...

Strategy 6: race or gender conscious banding. In banding, applicants are rationally or statistically (Bobko, Roth, & Nicewander, 2005; Schmidt & Hunter, 2004) segmented into groups and all members of a group are asserted to be of equivalent eligibility for hire. Because employment tests are linearly related to job performance (Coward & Sackett, 1990; Hawk, 1970; Robie & Ryan, 1999), the assumption is clearly false and the low cut off scores can substantially compromise the merit selection process.

...

Strategy 7: adjust selection system component weights. Personnel selection systems often contain more than one test and the tests will likely vary in their extent of mean group differences. One may adjust the score weights in hopes of reducing group differences

...

Strategy 8: give some applicants the answers to the employment test or complete a test for an applicant.

...

Strategy 9: adding points to applicant test scores. Minority test performance improves if one gives minority, but not majority applicants, extra points.

Svigor said...

learning is racist

Learning is racist, tests are racist, history is racist, America is racist, western civilization is racist, Europe is racist, whites are racist, conservatives are racist, firemen are racist, colorblindness is racist, equal opportunity is racist, the truth is racist, fairness is racist, "live and let live" is racist, self-determination is racist, free association is racist, rights are racist...

It's like the guy who's been kicked out of every bar in town and says every bar owner in town is an a-hole. Either he's wrong, in fact got it exactly opposite of right, or "a-hole" is the new word for everything good.

Sane, decent people should start worrying if they're not being called "racist."

Svigor said...

Courage is racist, honesty is racist, forthrightness is racist, fighting city hall is racist, speaking truth to power is racist, fighting the system is racist, speaking up for yourself is racist...

Anonymous said...

"Cognitive dissonance has its arbitrage opportunities."

Especially when cognitive dissidence is unthinkable.



Anybody got a dictionary?

Anonymous said...

Liberals avoid affirmative-action hires like the plague when it directly impacts their own lives. Check out Obama's personal physician of 22 years... a nerdy Jewish male.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/18/obama-doctor-knocks-obamacare-business-healthcare-obamas-doctor.html

Anonymous said...

I suspect most New Yorkers approve of this kind of thing, and it will be New Yorkers who will suffer the consequences, so in that sense this situation is fair.

The New Yorkers who count [wink-wink, nudge-nudge] will certainly approve of it, since the New Yorkers who will suffer the consequences - i.e. all those icky masculine traditional-values white European males in the NYFD & NYPD - are precisely the New Yorkers most likely to vote GOP.

Anonymous said...

Love your posts,
Svigor.

Your words belong on every billboard in the USA.

keypusher said...

It doesn't matter. AA always wins out. It will win out at NIH, it will win out in the FDNY, it will win out in New Haven.

Anonymous said...

canada does it better and cheaper?

Maya said...

I just want to know, what is it exactly that costs 3.3 mil? How long is this test? I imagine a panel of people sitting around a conference table, eating Vietnamese take out and rearranging/ rewording questions from preexisting tests. I mean... the subject matter is pretty limiting. You can't come up with completely new questions.
If they just pocket the 3.3 mil without really doing much(after paying some sort of self selected college student volunteers of all races), why didn't other people try to bid it down? I bet a lot of firms would be happy with 2 or even 1 free million bucks. Heck, I'd do it for 200, but I don't have a shiny office. A lot of businesses do, though. I don't get it.

Charlie said...

I can tell you that most New Yorkers are most certainly NOT okay with this. I see comments like this frequently: "Yeah, this is bad, but it's no more than those New York elites deserve for trying to foist this on the rest of the country." Bullshit. Despite occasional blind spots, we're not stupid people. We see the kind of harm this does to the city, and most of us are a lot more aware of HBD than most people here seem to think.
The city obviously skews liberal, but that doesn't mean we're blind. This policy, like so many others, is the will of those at the top rather than the population at large.

beowulf said...

Use the ASVAB, using Uncle Sam's test makes it difficult for Uncle Sam to call results discriminatory.

MOS 21M - Firefighter
Army firefighters are responsible for protecting lives and property from fire. Firefighters control fires and help prevent them in buildings, aircraft and aboard ships. Firefighters supervise or performs firefighting, rescue, salvage and fire protection operations...
ASVAB Score Required: 90 in aptitude area GM
GM- General Maintenance-GS+AS+MK+EI
General Science (GS), Mathematics Knowledge (MK), Electronics Information (EI)

Eric said...

At some point they'll be spending so much on the test they may as well go ahead and hire everyone.

Jack Aubrey said...

"Hence the comparative advantage of the Chinese - when they get test results that say something like this, they accept them. We pay for another test!"

Why the hell do you think China paid $25 million for the MLK monument, and even built it for us?

They regard the the results of the civil rights "struggle" and the ensuing race insanity as a bloodless victory for themselves.

"Learning is racist, tests are racist, history is racist, America is racist, western civilization is racist, Europe is racist, whites are racist, conservatives are racist, firemen are racist, colorblindness is racist, equal opportunity is racist, the truth is racist, fairness is racist"

Don't forget that stereotyping is racist. But calling all or most whites, firemen, Europeans, etc. "racist" is somehow neither stereotyping nor scapegoating nor racist.

jz said...

" a golden age for for-profit psychometrics"

Indeed. Many of these employment tests are contracted by the Princeton Review company in Princeton, New Jersey. Have you seen their pastoral acreage outside the city of Princeton? WOW!

Anonymous said...

I support this.

For too long, Whites have had a strangle-hold on Fire department jobs, these are cushy jobs. Certain white families have the inside track on these jobs. That's not fair.

I don't have much doubt that blacks would do as well in these jobs, these are muscle jobs.

I can guarantee that if Asians started outscoring Whites on these exams, you would find some rational for discrediting the test.

Anonymous said...

Is this 'racist' or simply factual?:

"..African-Americans are over-represented among the 22 million who work for local, state and federal governments. And while government workers came out best in terms of job security and salary hikes in the stimulus days of 2009 and 2010, in the austerity days of 2011, they are getting their fair share of pink slips. It is almost a truism: Whenever Middle America goes into recession, Black America flirts with depression.

Consider the U.S. Postal Service, with 600,000 employees, running a deficit of $8.5 billion and facing layoffs of 120,000. According to William Burrus, ex-president of the Postal Workers Union, 21 percent of all postal employees are black. When the cuts come, minorities will take a big hit.

That African-Americans favor a powerful federal government is understandable. After all, it was the federal government that crushed the Confederacy, freed the slaves, sent troops to integrate the South, enacted the civil rights laws, imposed affirmative action on companies and colleges, and created the Great Society that provided trillions in wealth transfers and welfare benefits and employs a share of the black population that is nearly twice its representation in the labor force.

That African-Americans would see states’ rights conservatives and small-government Republicans as hostile to the one powerful institution most friendly to them should come as a no surprise..."

Pat Buchanan

Anonymous said...

Sane, decent people should start worrying if they're not being called "racist."

Thank you Svigor- been thinking that for ages. Should we thank the person that calls us racist?

Dan in DC

David said...

>Anybody got a dictionary?<

Dictionaries are racist.

Camlost said...

I don't have much doubt that blacks would do as well in these jobs, these are muscle jobs.

I have much doubt that black males can act as valorous and self-sacrificing as the white FDNY members during 9/11...

Black males don't even care for the welfare of their own children, let alone the safety of others...

Marco Lalo said...

Steve, this is de facto reparations! You, yourself, said that this is something we need to live with for the foreseeable future, so what are you whining about? Don't the descendants of slaves who had their labor stolen deserve a leg up? Don't they!?

Marco Lalo said...

Compared to slavery and another century of Jim Crow, I think a leg-up in FDNY hiring is pretty trivial.

Jack Aubrey said...

"Compared to slavery and another century of Jim Crow, I think a leg-up in FDNY hiring is pretty trivial."

Ja, but the nature of a ceasefire is that it is just that - a ceasefire...by BOTH sides. That's what the civil rights movement promised us, not a century of whites taking it up the a$$ to reciprocate, including the adoption of policies that would completely wreck the economy as a result.

As of right now, whites still outnumber blacks in this country by about 5-1. You should view legal equality as the best of available options, not the worst.

Anonymous said...

Marco Lalo do you want an unqualified firefighter attempting to save your life?

Someone incapable of passing a civil service entrance exam is a danger to themselves and their community.

How is that supposed to help "repay" slavery? Didn't the American army send enough white soldiers to die in the Civil War to satisfy you?

Anonymous said...

When an unqualified/incompetent person gets hired over you I imagine it wont be so "trivial" to you Mr Lalo.

Anonymous said...

Like Maya I'd like to know why it cost so much to creat this test. It will be interesting to see the results, as well.

Anonymous said...

Svigor: your comments at 4:36 and 4:38 should be chiseled in granite.
We're fast approaching a Lexington and Concord type of moment.

Anonymous/7:31 -- "I can guarantee that if Asians started outscoring whites in these exams..."

Yes but what's your point? Does the United States of America exist as a sort of benevolent fraternal organization to help high-scoring Asians?

Show me all the Asian gravestones at Arlington and Gettysburg. Show me all the great Asian universities built in North America for the benefit of whites. Show me the great chain of Asian grammar schools and poorhouses and hospitals (oh wait no, that was the lowly Irish Catholics, wunnit?).

Just exactly whose country do you think this is? Any old weirdo's who can score high on a "test"?

No one can actually defend real-world turf on the basis of your thinking. Then again I bet that's exactly what you're counting on, innit.

Truth said...

"Learning is racist, tests are racist, history is racist, America is racist, western civilization is racist, Europe is racist, whites are racist, conservatives are racist, firemen are racist, colorblindness is racist, equal opportunity is racist, the truth is racist, fairness is racist, "live and let live" is racist, self-determination is racist, free association is racist, rights are racist..."

So you are proof-reading your posts.

Eric said...

Compared to slavery and another century of Jim Crow, I think a leg-up in FDNY hiring is pretty trivial.

It's been almost 150 years since slavery ended in the US, and another 50 since the end of Jim Crow. People who are old enough to have been affected aren't applying for jobs at the local fire department.

eh said...

$3.3 million

The price of 'citizenism'? I mean, I hear all the time about how great 'diversity' is, so this seems like a small price to pay for all the 'diversity' NYC enjoys.

Anonymous said...

Uh oh, is someone using "cognitive dissonance" to mean "doublethink" again?

Anonymous said...

OT: WOW. Important and powerful post by David Starkey! He came out swinging and has 2100 comments on his side.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8711621/UK-riots-Its-not-about-criminality-and-cuts-its-about-culture...-and-this-is-only-the-beginning.html


We must focus on the righting of the wrong rather than the original wrong itself. The former heals; the latter divides. And we have had enough of division. There is a final point. If all the people of this country, black and white alike, are to enter fully into our national story, as I desperately hope they will, they must do so on terms of reciprocity. In other words, I must be as free to comment on problems in the black community as blacks are to point the finger at whites, which they do frequently, often with justice, and with impunity.

For the other pernicious legacy of the reaction to Powell has been an enforced silence on the matter of race. The subject has become unmentionable, by whites at any rate. And any breach has been punished by ostracism and worse. As the hysterical reaction to my remarks shows, the witch-finders already have their sights on me, led by that pillar of probity and public rectitude, Piers Morgan, who called on Twitter for the ending of my television career within moments of the Newsnight broadcast.

But the times have changed. Powell had to prophesy his “Tiber foaming with blood”. We, on the other hand, have already experienced the fires of Tottenham and Croydon. Moreover, the public mood is different from the acquiescent and deferential electorate of the Sixties. We are undeceived. We are tired of being cheated and lied to by bankers and MPs and some sections of the press.

We will not continue, I think, to tolerate being lied to and cheated in the matter of race. Instead of “not in front of the children”, we want honesty.

But this is only the beginning. The riots are the symptom of a profound rupture in our body politic and sense of national identity. If the rupture is not healed and a sense of common purpose recovered, they will recur – bigger, nastier and more frequently. Can we stop bickering and address this task of recovery and reconstruction – all together?

Anonymous said...

By my count, Euro-Catholic immigrants have thus far contributed to America: Georgetown University, Fordham University, Boston College, Saint John's University, Notre Dame College, Marymount-Loyola University, countless Catholic hospitals, countless Catholic relief charities, the Little Sisters of the Poor, Xavier High School and Regis High School in New York, countless other centers of Jesuit, Franciscan and Dominican excellence, as well as services for the poor and needy all across this country. Swing a dead cat and you'll find a Catholic charity ready to help it.

Asians....?
Chinese...?
Koreans...?
Bueller?

Hmm, I was given to understand that you folks had a sense of shame called "loss of face."

Guess not, when there's just so much free stuff here for you to gorge on.

(spits)

Svigor said...

Compared to slavery and another century of Jim Crow, I think a leg-up in FDNY hiring is pretty trivial.

Two wrongs make a right; at least someone here is willing to make liberals' case for them.

But I like your logic. Let me see if I can try:

Compared to the Mongols, slavery and a century of Jim Crow are pretty trivial.

Compared to Al-Andalus, slavery and a century of Jim Crow are pretty trivial.

Compared to the Black Death, slavery and a century of Jim Crow are pretty trivial.

Compared to the commies, slavery and a century of Jim Crow are pretty trivial.

Compared to living in Africa, slavery and a century of Jim Crow were pretty trivial.

Can someone explain to me how Jim Crow was a bad thing? Especially given the reality that Africa was the alternative? I'd much rather be born black under Jim Crow than black in Africa today, never mind born a Khoi when the Bantu came knocking.

Anonymous said...

Doing something the same way again but expecting different results is the definition of ...

Kylie said...

"1/ Look at it this way. At least the test-designing firms must hire a lot of intelligent people. And its doubtful that those employees will be non-Americans, since I doubt very many non-Americans can get their minds around the concepts of creating tests that only sort of test what is needed."

Yes, the kind of intelligent people who are book smart and lack all common sense. Having that kind in decision- and policy-making positions is a big part of why we're in the fix we're in.

"2/ I suspect most New Yorkers approve of this kind of thing, and it will be New Yorkers who will suffer the consequences, so in that sense this situation is fair."

Right. So it was only native New Yorkers who were killed on 9/11.

New York is highly visible and influential. Its innovations and policies are often emulated. For example, Guiliani's "broken windows" policing in New York influenced policy in police departments in other cities and towns.

Anonymous said...

Why cannot an enterprising lawyer hire Arthur Jensen et alia as expert witnesses and argue that the tests are not biased rather HBD exists and needs to be allowed under the law? In terms of evidence it would be an easy case to win. Not so sure about politically -- but wouldn't some sensible judge eventually cop on and accept the overwhelming evidence?

Anonymous said...

Look, Steve says American-Americans are doomed to pay the slavery tax, a/k/a welfare, a/k/a gov't preferences in hiring for gov't jobs, etc.

Okay, if we *must,* can't we just set these illiterate blacks to doing make-work, like, I dunno, copying, by longhand, old physics texts, or something?
Tell them printing presses are racist, and we need the Black Perspective on quantum mechanics.

IOW, give them some kind of highly-paid monkey work to do that it doesn't matter if it's done badly, but will keep them from loitering street corners and flash-mobbing us, while keeping them happily out of crucial industries so the competent (i.e., White) people can get some real work done around here?

Zippy said...

On the issue of Asians: most folks who follow HBD debates agree that Asians outscore whites on various tests, and they don't generally make efforts to discredit the tests. There is some debate about how much, and about what it all means, but I find the anti-preference against high-scoring Asians quite deplorable.

And Jews score highest of all!

Honestly, if Asian-Americans make 108% of the white average, I don't care. And yes, I'm a white dude.

Camlost said...

They're trying to turn the FDNY into the NOPD.

I think we know which one performs better, and why.

kaganovitch said...

Maya wrote "I just want to know, what is it exactly that costs 3.3 mil?... why didn't other people try to bid it down? I bet a lot of firms would be happy with 2 or even 1 free million bucks. Heck, I'd do it for 200, but I don't have a shiny office... I don't get it."

Maya I think you misunderstand the subtext here: In this instance exorbitant expense "is not a bug ,it's a feature". It can be subsequently pointed to as an indication of purity of heart-see we spared no expense in our pursuit of social justice! All part of the game I'm afraid.

steve burton said...

"Compared to living in Africa, slavery and a century of Jim Crow were pretty trivial."

Heh. But, for once, svigor doesn't go far enough. I mean, heck - compared to life in any black-governed inner city in America today, Jim Crow was pretty trivial.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the test can be made up by a company with an entirely black workforce so there can be no questions. Dare them to see if it can be done.

Anonymous said...

I gots to know. How can such an exam discriminate against the race of the test taker? Aren't they very technical? I imagine questions about fire hose rate of flow, water pressure, ladder deployment, oxygen tank time limits, proper manpower deployment, etc. you either studied hard and absorbed it or you didn't. Which questions caused the accusation of racial discrimination? Some examples Mr.Sailer, for those of us in the dark. (oops. sorry. Please don't sue me).

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...

By my count, Euro-Catholic immigrants have thus far contributed to America: Georgetown University, Fordham University, Boston College, Saint John's University, Notre Dame College, Marymount-Loyola University, countless Catholic hospitals, countless Catholic relief charities, the Little Sisters of the Poor, Xavier High School and Regis High School in New York, countless other centers of Jesuit, Franciscan and Dominican excellence, as well as services for the poor and needy all across this country. Swing a dead cat and you'll find a Catholic charity ready to help it.

Asians....?
Chinese...?
Koreans...?
Bueller?

Hmm, I was given to understand that you folks had a sense of shame called "loss of face."

Guess not, when there's just so much free stuff here for you to gorge on.

(spits)"

Yes, and how many universities and charities have YOU established? It is easy to ride on the coattail of other people's achievements, when you have no achievements to call your own. Apparently your kind (white supremacists) have no concept of the loss of face. It would be nice if you are to acquire some.

(spits)

And even though I do not think he is Asian, and might in fact be black, since Asians usually do not go around trumpeting their "higher IQs" the same way you mental midgets do (Asians have a higher quality known as humility). But his point still stands, that it is hilarious for you people to mock them (I am assuming he is black) for having "lower IQ" in pretty much every single thread, yet get all defensive and high and mighty when the idea of meritocracy swings against your kind (I am assuming you are white). You can't fix stupid.

Anonymous said...

Swing a dead cat and you'll find a Catholic charity ready to help it.

Asians....?
Chinese...?
Koreans...?
Bueller?

Hmm, I was given to understand that you folks had a sense of shame called "loss of face."

Guess not, when there's just so much free stuff here for you to gorge on.

(spits)"

Yes, and how many universities and charities have YOU established? It is easy to ride on the coattail of other people's achievements, when you have no achievements to call your own. Apparently your kind (white supremacists) have no concept of the loss of face. It would be nice if you are to acquire some.



The Asian apologist concedes the point.

He insists Asians are humble about their lack of charity despite their ample ability to provide it. I can understand not being prideful about such a condition.

Maybe they need some cultural integration. Something like, " From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

Truth said...

"Can someone explain to me how Jim Crow was a bad thing?"

Well, that would be simple, come to Albuquerque and I will drop you off in a strange neighborhood, then I and four of my friends will run up to you and beat you with clubs...Oh wait, they call that "flash mobbing" today. I guess you think it's a good thing?

Truth said...

"You can't fix stupid."

It's tough, but I bring my toolbox here every day, and not yet a word of thanks from Sailer.

Svigor said...

On the issue of Asians: most folks who follow HBD debates agree that Asians outscore whites on various tests, and they don't generally make efforts to discredit the tests. There is some debate about how much, and about what it all means, but I find the anti-preference against high-scoring Asians quite deplorable.

And Jews score highest of all!

Honestly, if Asian-Americans make 108% of the white average, I don't care. And yes, I'm a white dude.


Right, but "underperforming" on tests isn't really the issue. The issues are that blacks (as a race) can't create or sustain a civilization that meets white minimum standards, and blacks are a minority. I.e., you might have more of a tendency to care if you were part of a white minority that is only 12% vs a yellow majority that was 65% or more, but you'd probably care if you suddenly found yourself a member of a race that can't really have the good life without the majority.

Svigor said...

Yes, and how many universities and charities have YOU established? It is easy to ride on the coattail of other people's achievements, when you have no achievements to call your own. Apparently your kind (white supremacists) have no concept of the loss of face. It would be nice if you are to acquire some.

So you object to collective pride, but you engage in collective criticism. Cognitively elite, you ain't.

The problem with attacking collective pride is that you simultaneously attack the pride of the parent in his children, the child in his parents, siblings in one another, civic pride, patriotism, professional pride, etc., etc., etc. It's essentially a misanthropic pastime, though in many cases it just comes down to being a hater of one group or another.

since Asians usually do not go around trumpeting their "higher IQs" the same way you mental midgets do (Asians have a higher quality known as humility).

Sounds almost like you've got some collective pride going there. You're at least suborning that which you seem to despise.

Truth said...

"The problem with attacking collective pride is that you simultaneously attack the pride of the parent in his children, the child in his parents, siblings in one another, civic pride, patriotism, professional pride, etc., etc., etc. It's essentially a misanthropic pastime,"

I don't see that at all, my friend. I didn't see anyone rushing to claim Brevik as a close relative. You are all cherry-pickers.

Svigor said...

"The problem with attacking collective pride is that you simultaneously attack the pride of the parent in his children, the child in his parents, siblings in one another, civic pride, patriotism, professional pride, etc., etc., etc. It's essentially a misanthropic pastime,"

I don't see that at all, my friend. I didn't see anyone rushing to claim Brevik as a close relative. You are all cherry-pickers.


How does the lack of pride in any particular member of the collective obviate the idea of collective pride?

Your example equivalent to calling Americans "cherry-pickers" if they aren't proud of Benedict Arnold.

Svigor said...

Anonymous is also mistaken to conflate pointing out lower black mean IQ and mocking same. The fact is that our society is being increasingly built around the idea that there are no significant cognitive differences between the races. The vast majority of the mocking in fact targets DWLs and this idea, not blacks per se. And regardless of the percentages, the fact remains that pointing out the realities of race and IQ do not constitute mockery, per se. It certainly doesn't substantially motivate me, I assure you. But if, for example, DWLs started doing for children the sorts of things they do for blacks, I would have many mocking words for them and their actions, and it would probably seem to them that I was "attacking kids" and deliberately belittling them, when in fact it would all be down to the DWL fantasies about the equality of adults and children (and the malfeasance that would inevitably flow from that).

Svigor said...

P.S., Episcopalians score higher than Jews.

Svigor said...

"Can someone explain to me how Jim Crow was a bad thing?"

Well, that would be simple, come to Albuquerque and I will drop you off in a strange neighborhood, then I and four of my friends will run up to you and beat you with clubs...Oh wait, they call that "flash mobbing" today. I guess you think it's a good thing?


That makes no sense. I could just as well use your example to illustrate how integration is a bad thing. It would certainly make more sense than using it to illustrate how Jim Crow is a bad thing.

Kylie said...

"The issues are that blacks (as a race) can't create or sustain a civilization that meets white minimum standards..."

Even worse, they inevitably degrade any civilization to which they are admitted entrance.

The fact that they can never create or sustain civilization just means they don't contribute much positively. That's not really a big deal. There are layabouts in every society.

But the fact that they inevitably have a negative impact on any civilization in which they are to be found even in fairly small numbers is a much more serious matter. They tend to be both destructive and dependent which really skews the cost/benefit ratio against any arguments in favor of their presence.

Anonymous said...

"Can someone explain to me how Jim Crow was a bad thing?"

Jim Crow humiliated black alphas, and elevated black beta providers in the eyes of black women.

Apple said...

I Am African American woman and I believe that the fire exam is just like any other civil service exam. Has anybody consider that some minorities do not want to take this test because they are not interested in being a a firefighter. Why does color always have to be an issue? I want to gain my employment through my experience and education, not by color. I attend John Jay College, I met several firefighters in my class from different parts of New York and New Jersey. They seem to be ok with minorities. So what is the big problem. The exam should remain the same, its common sense and there after you must work hard. Which I believe in. Leave race out of this.

Anonymous said...

“I will drop you off in a strange neighborhood, then I and four of my friends will run up to you and beat you with clubs...Oh wait, they call that "flash mobbing" today.”

Are you insinuating that the motivation for “flash mobbing” is racial revenge for Jim Crow?

Evil Sandmich said...

Mildly related. I know that you've pointed out in the past about employers being unable to give written tests that have a disparate racial impact (i.e. all of them). I figured I'd bring up that someone on LinkedIn commented that a prospective employer requested his ACT/SAT scores as part of the interview process. A little bit more of 'written testing by proxy' methinks.

It's all rather sloppy as neither test directly tests against the employer's desired skill set (software programming), but I guess it's better than nothing.