May 22, 2012

PISA scores for immigrants

Anatoly Karlin, who is making himself the go-to guy on analyzing the investment implications of international school test scores (a potentially lucrative niche), has a long, fascinating write-up of PISA scores adjusted by immigration status:
One thing that immediately leaps out from above is that just as US scores leap upwards (from 496 to about 525, in line with Australia and Canada) once only whites are considered, so do scores in many European states when only natives are considered (e.g. Germany from 510 to 533; Switzerland from 517 to 542; the Netherlands from 519 to 533). In fact, the Germanic nations equalize with Japan’s 529, Taiwan’s 534, and South Korea’s 541 (the natives of these developed East Asian societies also score a lot higher than their immigrants, but the overall effect on the national average is modest because migrant children are such a small percentage of their school-age populations). In other words, in the worst affected European countries, immigrants are lowering the mean national IQ (converted from PISA scores) by as much as 3 points. 
This might not seem like much, but it is highly significant when bearing in mind the extremely close correlation between national IQ and prosperity. Furthermore, since immigrant population tend to be highly variant – for instance, Britain has a lot of Poles, who are essentially equal to the natives in cognitive capacity (maybe even superior, once you adjust for the fact that it is better-educated Poles who tend to emigrate), and a lot of Pakistanis, who are far below them. This is a good explanation for the general sense of dereliction one sees (and the crime one is likely to experience) when entering Pakistani ghettos in the UK. 
Also note from the graph that there is typically a very high degree of overlap between 1st and 2nd generation immigrant children. The 2nd generation children DO typically perform better, presumably because 1st generation immigrants may frequently have language difficulties and problems with adjusting to a new culture. But the degree of convergence of 2nd generation children to the native mean is modest, despite their transferal to typically far more advanced educational environments. Convergence is almost inconsequential in most European countries like Germany, France, Benelux, Norway, and actually negative in the US (i.e. American 2nd generation immigrant children do worse than the 1st generation).

82 comments:

Depressed said...

I wonder if this sort of analysis could be done on a smaller scale like Metropolitan Statistical Areas in the US?

Is there any data beyond standardized test scores or extrapolating out National Merit data of various school districts?

Anonymous said...

Japan only 529?

feral1404 said...

Off-topic, Steve, but Drudge is just now reporting personnel fires caught burning at the DC fire academy...

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/looselips/2012/05/22/is-the-district-setting-personnel-records-on-fire/

Getting rid of training ratings and educational scores? Might want to look into that one.

Sheldon said...

And of course, all of the elites and politicians who rule the western countries will pay absolutely zero attention to this, or worse, claim it means that 'the gap' indicates inequality that must be fought ever harder...

Anonymous said...

in many European states when only natives are considered (e.g. Germany from 510 to 533; Switzerland from 517 to 542; the Netherlands from 519 to 533). In fact, the Germanic nations equalize with Japan’s 529, Taiwan’s 534, and South Korea’s 541

Is the Netherlands considered a "Germanic nation"?

Anonymous said...

http://akarlin.com/2012/05/22/germany-gets-bad-news-from-pisa/


Some observations on the native PISA scores of the places tested:

1. The difference between yellow Shanghai (589) and white Albania (388) and Montenegro (403) is humongous.

2. Native Singaporeans, 24% of whom are lower IQ malays and indians, are ranked 4th with a score of 550. Above the homogeneously east asian natives of Japan, South Korea ,Taiwan

3. Kyrgyzstan which is 90% turkic or eurasian, and 10% northern slavic, scores the lowest at 333 well below majority non-white, non-asian countries like Trinidad, Brazil, Colombia, Tunisia, Dubai.

Peter A said...

Of course the Netherlands is a "Germanic" nation. Dutch is mutually intelligible with the local "German" Plattdeutsch dialects spoken across the border.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of test scores for immigrants....

http://tinyurl.com/cok66e4

"Now, Breitbart News has established that Obama's grades and Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) scores may have been even lower than those of his supposedly less capable predecessor, George W. Bush.
...
Among accepted transfer students, the average combined math and verbal score on the Scholastic Aptitude Test is a 1,100 and their grade-point average at their former schools is about 3.0, Boatti said."

The freshman class was about 100 points higher. Those SAT scores don't seem terribly impressive. You have to figure Obama was given some AA leeway as well.

Anonymous said...

Is the Netherlands considered a "Germanic nation"?

Let's look at the first verse of the dutch national anthem:

"William of Nassau
am I, of German blood.
Loyal to the fatherland
I will remain until I die."

I think that settles the question. ;-)

Anonymous said...

Of course the Netherlands is a "Germanic" nation. Dutch is mutually intelligible with the local "German" Plattdeutsch dialects spoken across the border.

Does that make England a "Germanic" nation as well? Dutch share a lot of commonalities with English and sounds a lot like it as well.

Anonymous said...

Yes, well, everything west of the Slavs and north of the old Roman frontier is pretty much Germanic, when you get down to it.

English is really just a provincial offshoot of Frisian.

eah said...

US scores leap upwards (from 496 to about 525, in line with Australia and Canada) once only whites are considered

Yes, OK. And gee, what a surprise. What next? Maybe you'll be telling us the same is true for crime rates -- the US approaches European norms once you exclude NAMs.

Weren't you the guy in the back seat during the final scene of 'Thelma and Louise'? Calculating how long it would take before the car went over the cliff? Do you think maybe we ought to step on the brakes?

Anonymous said...

Yes, the English are a Germanic nation.

Anonymous said...

What about Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians: Germanic? Or more Slavic?

Anonymous said...

The Danes, Swedes and Norwegians speak Germanic languages, and their cultural history links them more strongly to the German orbit than to the Slavic.

AKarlin said...

Is the Netherlands considered a "Germanic nation"?

My bad. I edited it out.

Assigning the Dutch to the Germanic is too broad a categorizing in any but the most general sense; and in any case, far from all "Germanic" nations (in the broad categorization) end up approaching the East Asians. E.g., PISA scores for natives are 508 in the UK; 504/505 for Sweden, Norway, and Iceland; 509 for Denmark.

For that matter, now that I look more closely at it, the truly "Germanic" nation of Austria only has 508 as the mean native score...

Felix said...

This clearly shows that whites > Asians. Germanic whites score just as well as wealthy east Asian countries on the PISA (which in addition to G also tests content) despite putting in nowhere near the effort obsessive Asians pour into education. This correlates very well with what we observe historically and even currently to this day. Name a technology, scientific theory, abstract concept or philosophical innovation-any transcendent creation of the mind basically-and the odds are overwhelming that it was created by whites, not Asians.

Asians are just good at cramming. They are forever cramming. They were cramming hundreds of years ago to enter the imperial bureaucracy while whites were inventing the modern world, and they are cramming today to enter the great institutions (Ivies etc) that whites created. The sad part is that by spending all this time cramming, they are slowing the pace of technological progress by denying spots/opportunities to people who would use the career enhancement and resources provided by an "elite" education to actually, you know, DO stuff. Ie, whites.

Ron Woo said...

"English is really just a provincial offshoot of Frisian."

Yes - English, the international lingua franca of science and commerce, is a "provincial offshoot." Sheesh - some of the commentators here...

euquant said...

Yikes,

Take out the immigrants from the statistics would mean to take out all the brilliant offspring of the "Tiger Mothers" and "Dragon Daddies."

I wonder what would happen to children with less natural raw potential adopted by one of those demanding families.

The discussion about blood and IQ is still pointless. Sure it's better to be born with more potential, but most people are born with enough intelligence potential. The real problem is conscientiousness and agreeableness. As an employer, I'd rather have a team-player who gets along with others and works hard - even if he's short a IQ points compared to an arrogant potential genius not ready to put in the work required.

So what is the point of the notion that certain ethnic groups have lower average IQ? Does this mean you want to throw out people belonging to these groups? I don't really see that happening. Under tough talking Yanks beats a soft bleedy heart that just can't say no. I can hardly picture sending back a bunch of US citizens to where their ancestors originated, whether on a bus to Mexico or a boat to Liberia.

If you think so much of the IQ test, why don't you make that the selection criteria? No need to discriminate by ethnic characteristics. There's plenty of pale skinned jerks and dolts. Think of the possibilities: one could send all the white trash and the Jersey Shore type personalities back to Europe on a one way ticket permanent vacation.

If it's really a question about how to spend scarce educational resources, there may be a point. But first examine how much effort and money and resources are dedicated to special education. Getting people to reach their potential is the whole point, but when the potential is so little and the effort is so great, what is the point?

Anonymous said...

Texan demographer Steve Murdock published an interesting article last year ('it's basically all over for Anglos in this state'), in which he made dire predictions about future per capita GDP in Texas due low educational attainment amongst hispanics.
The upshot is that third world immigration will reduce first world nations to third world incomes.

Maya said...

"1. The difference between yellow Shanghai (589) and white Albania (388) and Montenegro (403) is humongous."

Shanghai is the place to be in China. Capable, talented people have been moving there for decades. Albania and Montenegro bleed their talent into France, Germany, the UK and even into Greece.

"3. Kyrgyzstan which is 90% turkic or eurasian, and 10% northern slavic, scores the lowest at 333 well below majority non-white, non-asian countries like Trinidad, Brazil, Colombia, Tunisia, Dubai."

Kyrgyzstan is the West Virginia of the region. Anyone with a remote desire for a modern, comfortable life has been fleeing it for nearly a century.

Anonymous said...

Good luck taking the nams out of the country. Stats are nice and all but the immigrants are already mixing with whites and will continue to do so at an increasing rate.

McGillicuddy said...

Yes, the lower one places his intelligence threshold, the less group differences matter, but of course, some else may want a higher threshold—I can't speak to the needs of your business, but others may have very different needs.

But we don't talk about this stuff in order to justify our desire for our continued whiteness (we have many deep and complicated reasons for this want, but to say why without saying why, we want to be white because we are white), we talk about it because it's interesting. Genetic and cultural diversity are interesting, and illuminating.

Regarding these results, the racial gaps are interesting, as is the gap between the high scoring natives of the Germanic core of Germany, The Netherlands, and (for the convenience of this observation) Switzerland, and the mediocre scores of those of the Germanic fringe of Britain, Austria, and Germanic Scandinavia. And so is the gap between Finland and her Scandinavian neighbors. And so is the gap between new world Anglo-Saxons and old world Anglo-Saxons. And so is the economic success of Scandinavia and Israel, despite their ho-hum pisa scores. And so is the fact that some here do not know the difference between German and Germanic.

Peter A said...

the truly "Germanic" nation of Austria only has 508 as the mean native score...

This shows the dangers of broad categorizations. One obvious explanation is that language (and even culture) does not equal ethnicity. Austrians certainly have a lot of South Slavic and Czech/Slovak genes. (You probably need to compare "Germanic" Salzburg and Innsbruck with the more Slavic Graz and Vienna). The Dutch are probably more purely "Germanic" from a genetic stand point than most Germans. and while the English speak a Germanic language, they are genetically more Celtic than Germanic. Another explanation is that terms like "white", "Jewish" or even "Germanic" are just too broad to be meaningful in an HBD context. There certainly seem to be well established partially inbred isolated groups of genetically challenged white Anglo Saxons (go to West Virginia or parts of Northen England), and even dumb Jews (like Yemenis, and, I suspect, Hasidim).

Fairly dumb seems to be the default for all racial groups. However outside of Africa intelligent elites seem to have arisen everywhere, replaced most of the non-elites in Northern Europe or East Asia,or remained a fairly cohesive group of intelligent people amidst a generally average general populations in places like India, the Balkans, Iran, Russia, South America, etc. The interesting question is why there seems to be no true highly intelligent elite subgroup among African populations.

Matt said...

Interesting how Singpore actually lives up to immigrants being equal (in 1st generation) and superior (in 2nd generation), along with Australia (although there, the recent 1st geb immigrants seem of lower quality than the 2nd gen).

I'm not entirely sure how, in the case of Singapore, the average score manages to be less than any of the native, 1st generation and 2nd generation, however.

Dubai and Qatar's graphics are, of course, pretty as expected.

2nd generation immigrants seem to catch up better in the UK than elsewhere, assuming they are sort of similar in demographic composition to the 1st generations, going from a major gap to, almost with no gap, which is interesting. Perhaps we're doing something quite different there (or they're just different in composition to the 1st gens.).

Also, again, to anyone reading that article, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in the UK are lower crime than average, but quite dysfunctional in many ways that do not involve crime, sexual promiscuity or substance abuse.

Linked post: The reason for why the Med countries do “better” than the Teutonic ones isn’t because they have better immigrants, but because their native IQ’s are lower

Differences are pretty low in the US, as measured by Wordsum, and Lynn has found high IQs in Italy.

Differences in Pisa are as large between a group comprising most of the Anglosphere (USA, Oz, Nz, Canada) and somesubset of Germanics plus Finns (NLD, Finland, Estonia, Switzerland) and the rest of the Anglosphere (UK, Ireland) plus other Germanic types (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, UK, Austria) than they are between the lower performing Northern groups and Italy, Spain and Portugal. But we probably wouldn't say the former gap is due to genetically determined IQ....

Euquant: So what is the point of the notion that certain ethnic groups have lower average IQ?

That it is almost certainly true and a good thing to know going forward when choosing who to let into the "family home" to live with us.

Anyone who is a citizen of the US or UK (and other countries) at the moment is a citizen is a citizen (in perpetuity). Some may propose changing that, but Steve and the vast majority of his readers do not.

AKarlin said...

@Matt,

I'm not entirely sure how, in the case of Singapore, the average score manages to be less than any of the native, 1st generation and 2nd generation, however.

Noticed that too. Have no idea how that could be the case.

Also, again, to anyone reading that article, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in the UK are lower crime than average, but quite dysfunctional in many ways that do not involve crime, sexual promiscuity or substance abuse.

Doubt that's true. As of 08/09, Asians were 5.2% of the population but 7.2% of the prison population.

Differences are pretty low in the US, as measured by Wordsum, and Lynn has found high IQs in Italy.

In Italy it depends to a great extent on where you measure it. In Sicily and Calabria its close to Turkey (going by converted PISA scores). A few of the northern provinces like Lombardy and Veneto are equivalent to the Netherlands or Australia.

AKarlin said...

@euquant,

Sure it's better to be born with more potential, but most people are born with enough intelligence potential. The real problem is conscientiousness and agreeableness.

Can't argue with that - but it also happens that IQ is positively correlated with those qualities, and that it is the single best predictor of efficiency on almost any job.

So what is the point of the notion that certain ethnic groups have lower average IQ? Does this mean you want to throw out people belonging to these groups?

That's not what I propose and in all likelihood 90%+ of Sailer's readership.

If you think so much of the IQ test, why don't you make that the selection criteria? No need to discriminate by ethnic characteristics.

Moderate HBD'ers have no problem with this. What we do have a problem with is affirmative action / disparate impact laws that (irony of ironies) FORCE people into discriminating by ethnicity.

Anonymous said...

Interesting thread comparing German and Jewish intelligence:

http://www.saloforum.com/index.php?threads/jewish-intelligence.1265/

"If you go to this website, they boast about the relative proportion of "prizes" won by Jews:

http://www.jinfo.org/

I know the following comparison may sound "malicious" to some here, but I would think Nazis (a subset of Germans) were smarter than Jews (as a group):

Nazis: Teichmuller (who is comparable to Galois), von Braun, Heisenberg, Konrad Zuse.

Jews: Einstein, von Neumann (not as great as Teichmuller), and that's it for people of this rank.

Notice how weak the Jews are in mathematics and engineering. They are only strong in physics. Oddly, the Germans are strongest in those areas (mathematics and engineering) where Jews are weak. In those areas all of the very greatest figures of the past century were non-Jews: Weyl, E. Cartan, Siegel, Kolmogorov, Leray, Teichmuller, Connes, etc. (mostly German, French, Russian). In absolute terms, American gentiles made more contributions than American Jews in the past century - think about Claude Shannon, Whitney (founder of differential topology), Linus Pauling, John Bardeen, etc.

Of course, counting the total # of prizes Jews get hide this fact b/c (1) most scientific advance is concentrated in a specific period, while those prizes are given at a constant rate, and (2) of course there's a gigantic difference between one recipient and another. So the nature of those prizes (in fact, any kind of prize-giving system) has to gloss over the fact that the Jews are at the very top of the second-rate, rather than anywhere near the frst.

In politics on the other hand it is much more important to have more people at the top of the second-rate, rather than a few at the very first. Group work triumphs over individual genius."

Anonymous said...

The PISA divides students into six prociency levels. Perhaps Mr. Karlin or someone else could do an analysis of what percentage of each nation's students are at the highest proficiency level. This could be more interesting than the average scores.

Anonymous said...

You guys are overinterpreting these PISA scores.

The standard deviation is 100. You also have to check whether the difference between any two countries is statistically significant. (It's in the report)

The Austrian teachers union partially boycotted the last PISA test, so I looked at the 2006 study. There was no statistically significant difference between Germany, Austria and Slovenia back then.

Besides, the PISA test is not a highly g-loaded IQ-Test.

On the purity of Austrians and Germans:

Germany had a large influx of Poles in the 19th century. Twelve million Germans from all over Eastern Europe were expelled post WWII. These expelles were certainly mixed to a great extent.

Native Austrians particularily in Vienna probably have a lot of Jewish ancestry.

Anonymous said...

Asians are just good at cramming. They are forever cramming. They were cramming hundreds of years ago to enter the imperial bureaucracy while whites were inventing the modern world, and they are cramming today to enter the great institutions (Ivies etc) that whites created. The sad part is that by spending all this time cramming, they are slowing the pace of technological progress by denying spots/opportunities to people who would use the career enhancement and resources provided by an "elite" education to actually, you know, DO stuff. Ie, whites.

I don't necessarily want to diss "Asians" per se - there are certainly a great number of "Asians" who could eventually become our very close allies.

But the tidal wave of intellectual and [anti-] moral energy on the part of modernity is directed at snuffing out the very kind of non-conformist/devil-may-care personality that you need to head off on your own and create something that no one else has ever before created [or even imagined creating].

The GOP might win in 2012, and maybe even again circa 2016, but, if the USA still exists as a single entity circa 2020 - roughly when our demographic destiny will have been sealed - then look for the MacFrankfurt School to devote all of its energy to first outlawing the homeschooling movement and then to outlawing any and all private [non-governmental] schooling whatsoever [with the obvious exception of the various MacYeshivas, of course].

Anonymous said...

"Does that make England a "Germanic" nation as well? Dutch share a lot of commonalities with English and sounds a lot like it as well."

The Anglo-Saxons were a Germanic tribe, so yes.

Anonymous said...

Can inbreeding over many generations lower IQ? Even in Britain most Pakis marry their cousins. All the Muslim countries seem to be stupid, even the one made up of whit(ish) people.( Iran may be an exception). There also is a huge problem with the educational systems in Muslim counties. They are mostly interested in teaching kids to memorize the Koran and to hate Jews and other non Muslims. Students from Saudi Arabia come to the west to attend university and end up in first year calculus classes often with about a grade six math education. (I know from first hand experience)


The Sikh diaspora living in the Vancouver area don't stand out as being particularly stupid. They don't form an under class the way , for example, the Pakis in Britain seem to.

Anonymous said...

And so is the fact that some here do not know the difference between German and Germanic.

What is the difference?

Anonymous said...

The sad part is that by spending all this time cramming, they are slowing the pace of technological progress by denying spots/opportunities to people who would use the career enhancement and resources provided by an "elite" education to actually, you know, DO stuff. Ie, whites.

I don't know that makes me very sad. The real problem is that Asians are taking European resources away from Europeans.

Anonymous said...

The discussion about blood and IQ is still pointless. Sure it's better to be born with more potential, but most people are born with enough intelligence potential. The real problem is conscientiousness and agreeableness.

Unless you're hiring people to bus tables or stand on an assembly line, the real problem is not conscientiousness and agreeableness. I've worked with plenty of people who had conscientiousness and agreeableness up the wazoo, but were simply not capable of performing the work we required at a satisfactory level. (I'm in law.) If forced to choose a single metric by which to hire people, I'd pick IQ without hesitation.

- A Solid Citizen

Truth said...

Uh Oh, Part XI:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-shooting-witnesses-change-stories-ahead-zimmerman-133743219.html

SFG said...

There's an idea, dating back to 19th-century nationalism, that ethnicity should be determined by language.

There is, in fact, a Germanic language family to which German, Dutch, English, and the Scandinavian countries (except Finland) belong. Most of these countries generally do display cultural similarities (less corruption, most saliently) with each other that they do not share with the Latin south or Slavic east.

Still, if you're talking about HBD, whatever the linguistic and ancestral relationships, I'd say the Finns act more like other Scandinavians, and while all these countries may indeed share Germanic origins, my understanding is that telling Dutch or Danish people they are German-ic is, um, not the healthiest thing in the world. But I don't live there.

I think the problem with Southern Europeans is more corruption than IQ--the Italians have certainly given us some first-rate thinkers over the years. Similarly, the Russians seem to have a pretty large smart fraction, but remain mired in vodka and misery.

For some reason, North and West Europeans have less corruption...which leads to socialism, because if people aren't going to live off the dole, why not avoid the risk? Then less clean countries try it and get screwed.

Anonymous said...

Regarding these results, the racial gaps are interesting, as is the gap between the high scoring natives of the Germanic core of Germany, The Netherlands, and (for the convenience of this observation) Switzerland, and the mediocre scores of those of the Germanic fringe of Britain, Austria, and Germanic Scandinavia

One wonders what these scores are telling us.

I mean, what have the British ever done? A mere afterthought in the story of industry, science, engineering etc.

Anonymous said...

"The sad part is that by spending all this time cramming, they are slowing the pace of technological progress by denying spots/opportunities to people who would use the career enhancement and resources provided by an "elite" education to actually, you know, DO stuff. Ie, whites."

Chinese/Koreans are 1.5% of the US. Judging my the composition of achievers under 40, they aren't doing badly as a small percentage of the population.

You sound like a bitter guy who hasn't done much in his life but relies on his identity to inflate his ego.

Anonymous said...

Of course there are smarter groups within Africa. The Igbo in Nigeria, the Tutsi of the Great Lakes, and the Luo of Kenya all have reputations as being brighter than their neighbors, and tend to be wealthier and resented as a result.

Simon in London said...

Denmark and the Netherlands are obviously Germanic. The Flemings who makes up 60% of Belgium are Germanic, too.

England overall seems a bit more Celtic than Germanic, depending on what DNA test you use; Essex AIR is the only bit that definitely looks more Germanic, though the north-east had a lot of Danish settlement. England resembles Latin America in that English male line descent (Y chromosome) is often Germanic, while female line descent (mitochondria) is mostly Celtic.

Culturally, the Norwegians seem much the closest to the English of the other Germanic nations, not the Saxons of Saxony, and not the Danes from what I've seen. But the English are closer to the Scots & Welsh than of the three are to any other nation.

Anonymous said...

"2nd generation immigrants seem to catch up better in the UK than elsewhere...going from a major gap to, almost with no gap, which is interesting. Perhaps we're doing something quite different there"

British education (apart from the private schools) has been dumbed down to the point where everyone can pass.

.
"Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in the UK are lower crime than average"

Not exactly true it's more their crime signature is distinctive in that their blue collar population has a mostly white-collar crime pattern i.e. fraud rather than theft. This is changing as drug dealing becomes more common.

Anonymous said...

Denmark and the Netherlands are obviously Germanic. The Flemings who makes up 60% of Belgium are Germanic, too.

What about Sweden?

Anonymous said...

I mean, what have the British ever done? A mere afterthought in the story of industry, science, engineering etc.

Seriously though, what have the English ever done in engineering?

Anonymous said...

I mean, what have the British ever done? A mere afterthought in the story of industry, science, engineering etc.

Seriously though, what have the English ever done in engineering?

Steve Sailer said...

Steam engine? Railroad?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5/23/12 3:07 AM,

No one can dispute the greatness of German mathematics going back to the 17th century. However, based on a conversation he had with Nazi official Bernhard Rust in the 1930's, David Hilbert did not agree with the claim of supposed Jewish weakness in mathematics that you have reproduced here. To some extent, what was claimed in that thread is an artefact of a lack of presence in secular studies before the early 19th century when the haskalah ("Jewish enlightenment") started to get off the ground. There were strong religious, cultural and even legal reasons for that lack of participation.

Moreover, it would not be universally accepted that Teichmuller was greater than von Neumann. Can they quote a survey of non-racially biased mathematicians who would support that conjecture? Eisenstein Minkowski, Hadamard, Schur, Landau, Courant and Hausdorf (not by any stretch a complete list of Jewish mathematicians) were also nothing to sneeze at, and they were produced by a European Jewish population significantly less than half as large as the population of Germany proper, not even counting the whole "Germanosphere."

Matt said...

AKarlin: Doubt that's true. As of 08/09, Asians were 5.2% of the population but 7.2% of the prison population.

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN04334.pdf - I see what you mean here and the religion descriptive figures are likewise illuminating (nice work bringing the Muslim total up even more, Black Muslims from Africa!).

However, I think that the youth bulge of the ethnic minorities has a strong role to play. Most offenders are age limited offenders after all.

e.g. http://www.poverty.org.uk/33/b.png - number of Asians aged 20 or younger who are imprisoned, as a proportion of those Asians under 20, is lower than for Whites. (source - http://www.poverty.org.uk/33/index.shtml?6)

If we just included only the Moslem Asians, I'd bet that the ratio would come out more or less comparably to Whites, since Hindus and Sikhs have a rate of criminality about 1/10 Whites, according to overall prison population and they also have a youth bulge (albeit less than Moslems). The Hindu & Sikh : White imprisonment ratio is likely similar to the White : Black ratio, once we adjust for youth.

(Hindus in the UK were largely selected from Patels who were doctors back in India, to staff the NHS. Pretty selective.)

Pakistanis and Bangladeshis just come from such strict religious communities with very hidebound cultural "shame" mechanisms towards criminals. They don't even drink. It's just hard for me to see that they could be much more criminal, in the full on kind of crazy Chav scum way, any more than White Evangelicals are.

Of course, doubtless you Yanks said the same about the Oirish and Italian Catholics back in the late 1800s and early 1900s and the Jewish gangsters.

And Africans and West Indians are very religious, albeit in "Kill all the gays with a vague justification that god says so!" kind of way, rather than the Muslim "Five times a day, they’re down on their knees, man.." kind of way.

So maybe it's more peripheral than I think.

But, I still think you're underestimating the depravity of the White British underclass. Don't get me wrong, it's arguably preferable to the kind of "Choke your daughter with a carrier bag and then dismember her because she doesn't want to marry her cousin", "Have a hitman assasinate your fiance because you can't come out as a gay in your community" and "Found a paedophile ring abusing young White girls" (all currently in the news over here), which all have a different level of visceral unpleasantness. But the White British underclass is at a White European peak for all kinds of criminality (after being basically the most law abiding underclass, what, a century ago). You Americans don't have "Winter's Bone" people in the middle of your cities.

Anonymous said...

"what have the English ever done in engineering?"

First Iron bridge.
First...loads of stuff

Seriously i do think there's an Anglo/German distinction in that i think the Germans may well have a slightly higher average IQ whereas Anglo inventors had/have an edge in thinking outside the box which i think may relate to a side-effect of family structure

(h/t hbdchick)

Svigor said...

Does that make England a "Germanic" nation as well? Dutch share a lot of commonalities with English and sounds a lot like it as well.

Yes. This:

Yes, well, everything west of the Slavs and north of the old Roman frontier is pretty much Germanic, when you get down to it.

English is really just a provincial offshoot of Frisian.


More or less. Read up on the "migration period." It's pretty much all about the Germanics.

Svigor said...

What about Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians: Germanic? Or more Slavic?

Germanic. Well, in a sense. The Germanic Ur was somewhere around modern-day Mecklenburg-Vorpommern or Szczecin, IIRC. I haven't delved that deeply into this, but the impression I got was that they originated in Scandinavia. Hell, I get the impression that the Slavs originated there, too (Viking Rus).

Anonymous said...

Seriously though, what have the English ever done in engineering?

Is this sarcastic?

Matt said...

England overall seems a bit more Celtic than Germanic, depending on what DNA test you use; Essex AIR is the only bit that definitely looks more Germanic, though the north-east had a lot of Danish settlement.

This PCA is probably a good, current "state of the art" guide to the "British position" if you're interested (the Finns have a weird placing as continental outliers, but it seems more or less consistent with what I've read for distances between other groups).

http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

Most closely about equidistant between Ireland, Belgium and the Netherlands, and less closely again equidistant from Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, France and Germany. Although that's the northern English - the southern English are probably noticeably more like the Belgians and Dutch than they are the Irish.

So about half Benelux, half Irish would be a good first approximation of the UK (even though that's probably not how it happened), whatever that means in Germanic-Romance-Celtic terms

Btw, that PCA might surprise you all with how far south the Austrians are, genetically. We all tend to think of the them as pretty much German, but really the German-Austrian distance is pretty much the same as the German-Norwegian distance. Which is actually realistically the way it should be on genes. Also true of the German-speaking Swiss.

The most interesting feature of that PC though, of course, is how far south the Italians are - much further south than you would expect from geography, even comparing the French and Portuguese.

Culturally, the Norwegians seem much the closest to the English of the other Germanic nations, not the Saxons of Saxony, and not the Danes from what I've seen. But the English are closer to the Scots & Welsh than of the three are to any other nation.

Yes, that's more or less right, although I would say it's really the Dutch, then the Norwegians.

Anonymous said...

"But, I still think you're underestimating the depravity of the White British underclass."

Black crime is as massively under-reported in the media in the UK as it is in the states.

.
"since Hindus and Sikhs have a rate of criminality about 1/10 Whites"

Populations which could be classified as a combination of
1) long-term urbanized
2) clannish family structure
have a similar crime profile with masses of white collar type crime e.g. fraud, tax evasion, welfare fraud etc.


It's like Wall St. Wall Streeters may only have 1/10 the proportion of people in jail but they're not 1/10 the proportion of criminals.

Anonymous said...

Pakistanis and Bangladeshis just come from such strict religious communities with very hidebound cultural "shame" mechanisms towards criminals. They don't even drink. It's just hard for me to see that they could be much more criminal, in the full on kind of crazy Chav scum way, any more than White Evangelicals are.

This has to be trolling. Pakistani Muslims have embraced drink, drugs, black culture etc. Im willing to bet their criminal participation outstrips whites by a clear margin.

And...

There are a number of trials underway in Britain at the moment where 'asian' gangs are accused of grooming underage white girls for sex. 'Asian' in this context is the UK MSM euphemism for Asian Muslim, which in this case largely means Pakistani Muslims.

Anonymous said...

Seriously though, what have the English ever done in engineering?

Sarcastic surely?

Or an ill-informed Asian chauvinist perhaps?

Given the Industrial Revolution began in Britain, the British hardly have to explain themselves in this respect.

Anonymous said...

I'd describe it as the Danes and Dutch are both offshoots of the Germans and the English are an offshoot of the Danes and Dutch (although with a higher percentage of non-Germanic).

Peter A said...

Seriously though, what have the English ever done in engineering?

I assume this was posted by a nationalistic Scot.

Ron Woo said...

"Asians are just good at cramming. They are forever cramming. They were cramming hundreds of years ago to enter the imperial bureaucracy while whites were inventing the modern world, and they are cramming today to enter the great institutions (Ivies etc) that whites created."

And their technological accomplishments prior to the modern era were utterly negligible as well. On top of that, they never wrote a single line, let alone page of literature, painted anything on paper or silk or carved anything in wood or metal.

Seriously - this is even more asinine than the "English is a provincial Frisian dialect" remark.

Ron Woo said...

"The Dutch are probably more purely "Germanic" from a genetic stand point than most Germans. and while the English speak a Germanic language, they are genetically more Celtic than Germanic."

The Dutch, just like most continental, nominally pure Germanic peoples, no doubt have a significant load of Central Asian/Turkic ancestry.

Silver said...

The Dutch, just like most continental, nominally pure Germanic peoples, no doubt have a significant load of Central Asian/Turkic ancestry.

Oh yeah, no doubt, no doubt at all. And that ancestry's probably the only good thing about them, too. I don't know why they don't just open the floodgates right this very minute so they can replace themselves with super high IQ and super patriotic asian immigrants and get those high quality genes in themselves asap. Why wait another fifty years? Do it right now. So much strength to be had!

Anonymous said...

Is the Netherlands considered a "Germanic nation"?


Very much so.

Anonymous said...

Dutch share a lot of commonalities with English and sounds a lot like it as well.


Dutch sounds nothing like English. It sounds a lot like German though.

Anonymous said...

The PISA divides students into six prociency levels. Perhaps Mr. Karlin or someone else could do an analysis of what percentage of each nation's students are at the highest proficiency level. This could be more interesting than the average scores.



Rindermann addressed that here. The tables include data on the "CA score" (Which is PISA converted to IQ) for the smartest 5% of each country.

This indirectly answers the question of whether there is a greater degree of IQ variance in Western countries when compared to NE Asian countries. "No", appears to be the answer from a casual inspection of the information provided, but I have not done the calculations for every country. And "NE Asian countries" here just means Japan and Korea - there's no data for the PRC.

Anonymous said...

Dutch sounds nothing like English. It sounds a lot like German though.

To a good ear, Dutch sounds a lot like English. Not intelligible necessarily, but there is a resemblance among the sounds and rhythms.

Ron Woo said...

"The Dutch, just like most continental, nominally pure Germanic peoples, no doubt have a significant load of Central Asian/Turkic ancestry.

Oh yeah, no doubt, no doubt at all. And that ancestry's probably the only good thing about them, too."

Well I wouldn't go that far, and I doubt the Huns or Avars possessed more of a cognitive advantage during the waning days of the Roman Empire, or immediately following the barbarian conquests. I think it's worth mentioning when anyone mentions racial purity - there are hardly any peoples on the planet who have remained ethnically pure throughout history. On either end of the eurasian continent everyone has to have a little bit of Altaic blood, given their prolific record of conquest.

Simon in London said...

@Ron Woo - Huns and Mongols never got anywhere near the Netherlands! Sheesh! That's just incredibly stupid & ignorant. Don't you have a map? A history book? Are you confusing them with the Hungarians?

I guess Dutch sounds a bit like English. To me Norwegian. Swedish and I think Danish sound a lot more like English though, a lot of the words are almost the same.

Anonymous said...

There's a British commenter her...... Simon in London. He claims that white chavs and blacks are a lot more dangerous than Pakistanis/Bangladeshis.

Anonymous said...

When the British riots happened, about half of the "Asian" rioters were Muslims from non-South Asia (Turkey, North Africa, Arab nations, Iran), despite their small overall proportion of the British Asian population.

So I'd bet that the Middle Eastern Muslims are overrepresented in crime stats. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are about equal to whites. (Perhaps this comes from being lower in IQ, but also lower in testosterone). Sikhs are probably somewhat underrepresented. Hindus even more so.

When the British riots happened, it was calculated that all the South Asian ethnic groups were arrested a lower rate than whites. Blacks and non-South Asian Muslims were arrested at 6x the rate.

Anonymous said...

It seems like British whites tend to very SWPL in general, like continental Europeans...... but there's a large white chav underclass that vastly inflates the crime stats. Take out the Chavs, and the British are like Germans or Manhattan whites. Am I right?

Anonymous said...

"Culturally, the Norwegians seem much the closest to the English of the other Germanic nations"

After living in Sweden I drove across Norway and stayed a while on the Atlantic coast, mostly around Bergen. I haven't a drop of Norwegian blood but I felt quite at home. Folks looked more 'Anglo-Celtic'. Redheads with freckled skin. Dark hair and fair skin. An adaption to the cloudy North Atlantic weather? Migration flows to and from the British Isles?

Anonymous said...

The Dutch, just like most continental, nominally pure Germanic peoples, no doubt have a significant load of Central Asian/Turkic ancestry.

It depends on what you mean by significant.

We have autosomal cluster tests that don't really find anything like that, even when we include outlier populations like the Sardinians who are pretty representative of the samples we have from ancient dna (from Neolithic era Europeans). At least beyond the less than 1/1000 parts that are quite difficult to distinguish from random fluctuations at that scale.

True of the Hungarians though (at very low levels). But even then it's significant as in "statistically significant", not as in "actually contributes much to inter-continent differentiation compared to other forces".

Anonymous said...

It seems like British whites tend to very SWPL in general, like continental Europeans...... but there's a large white chav underclass that vastly inflates the crime stats. Take out the Chavs, and the British are like Germans or Manhattan whites. Am I right?

Trying to assess this....

As a British person, I wouldn't guess that British Whites have a higher standard deviation of criminality, I think it's just all shifted in a more criminal direction.

On the other hand, we might have more diversity in criminality. And there is a floor to criminality, so it's not like comparing shifts in IQs between populations or anything (i.e. when people say "Take out the lower IQ Asians/Whites/Blacks, and they're just like Jews/Asians/Whites" they're wrong, because the Asians/Whites/Blacks still lack the high end that the Jews/Asians/Whites have, but in terms of crime there is an absolute mimimum that you're rubbing up against).

So maybe that might be a good way to think about it - "Take out the Chavs, and the British are like Germans or Manhattan whites. "

jody said...

i speak english and used to sort of speak german, and dutch sounds more like german. although it's not highly similar like the relationship between spanish and portuguese. dutch is definitely it's own language, and german and dutch are further apart than spanish and portuguese.

i tried to learn some dutch last year, and when written it looks more like german than english as well. it has genders for articles too. germans would learn dutch easier than the english would.

and, wow, it sounds terrible. dutch is probably the worst sounding european language. it's wretched.

jody said...

LOL was that a serious question about what have the english ever done in engineering? they did so much that they came up with many of the basic units of measurement in use in engineering around the world. horsepower, newton, british thermal unit (BTU), watt. although it would be said that watt is scottish.

over the last 200 years the english have engineered a vast amount of small arms, artillery, tanks, aircraft, and naval vessels. starting with the maxim machinegun, the sophistication of the engineering increased significantly with the establishment of the royal airforce.

1940 era: centurion tank, spitfire prop, mosquito prop, s class diesel sub, u class diesel sub, queen elizabeth class battleship

1980 era: challenger 1 tank, harrier jet, trafalgar class nuclear attack sub, resolution class nuclear missile sub, invincible class carrier

2010 era: challenger 2 tank, eurofighter typhoon jet, astute class nuclear attack sub, vanguard class nuclear missile sub, queen elizabeth class carrier

a lot of this stuff is built by BAE (british aerospace) systems and powered by rolls royce engines.

one interesting note, is that the titanic, and her sister vessel the olympic, were actually designed and built by irish guys, not the english. irish guys who didn't have computers. so they built these massive blue water ocean liners, with pencil and paper and hammers and rivets. no CAD drawings or models or simulations or anything to help or guide them. that's serious engineering and craftsmanship.

some english guys i can think of who were in cars and planes over the last 100 years:

frank whittle. developer of the jet engine for aircraft
walter bentley. aircraft, automobiles, engines
henry royce, charles rolls. rolls royce aircraft, automobiles, engines
geoffrey de havilland. aircraft
maurice wilks. land rover
cecil kimber. MG
lionel martin. aston martin
richard branson. among other things, founded virgin galactic for commercial spaceflight

british petroleum (BP) is one of the largest energy companies in the world. if you look at some of their projects in different nations (these are called "plays" in the energy business) you can see the degree of sophistication in their engineering operations. of course we can make jokes now about BP after their screw up in the gulf of mexico, but they're still one of the only energy firms with the ability to drill that deep.

jody said...

i'm a gun nut, obviously. in small arms with rifled barrels, caliber is often denoted in english unit of inches (.22 long rifle, .30-06 springfield, .44 remington magnum, .45 ACP, .50 BMG). mass of projectiles, usually bullets, is denoted in grains, where 7000 grains equals 1 pound. metric units of millimeters and grams are also used. usage is split about evenly between the two systems, showing the persistence of the english origins and ways.

in small arms with smooth barrels, caliber is usually denoted in english unit of gauge (20 gauge, 12 gauge, 10 gauge). the gauge number indicates how many lead spheres of barrel diameter does it take to make 1 pound. so a 12 gauge barrel is big enough for you to take 1 pound of lead and turn it into 12 spheres that fit down the barrel. a 10 gauge, like the winchester shotgun arnold uses in terminator 2, is a bigger barrel where it only takes 10 lead spheres.

cannons and artillery were for centuries denoted in english units of inches (4 inch gun, 6 inch gun, 12 inch gun, 16 inch gun) or pounds (6 pound gun, 12 pound gun). but now metric is more common for cannons and artillery (25mm autocannon, 30mm autocannon, 40mm anti aircraft cannon, 105mm tank cannon, 120mm tank cannon, 155mm artillery cannon).

pressure generated by the exploding powder in all these weapons is measured in CUP (copper units of pressure) or PSI (pounds per square inch), both english units. PSI being a general unit of measure in wide use for other stuff too, like tire pressure in your car or truck.

jody said...

"I wonder if this sort of analysis could be done on a smaller scale like Metropolitan Statistical Areas in the US? Is there any data beyond standardized test scores or extrapolating out National Merit data of various school districts?"

yes it can, and in fact, it has, indirectly. we already have lots of decent, reliable data that european americans vary in mean IQ from state to state, which is something we can deduce from decades of academic testing information.

in a few states in the north and midwest the euro american mean IQ today is 102, 103, or even 104, whereas in a few states in the south it is down around 98, 97, or even 96. that's almost an 8 point swing between the smartest states and the dumbest ones.

Luke Lea said...

I thought this was interesting

"in Shanghai, as in most other Chinese cities, the rural migrant workers that are the true urban working poor (totaling about 150 million in the country), are not allowed to send their kids to public high schools in the city. This is engineered by the discriminatory hukou or household registration system, which classifies them as "outsiders." Those teenagers will have to go back home to continue education, or drop out of school altogether."


http://tinyurl.com/bmuz2y2


I wasn't familiear with the hukou system, under which three-quarters of the Chinese people are second-class citizens in their own country, with a status somewhere between guest workers and illegal immigrants. They supply 80 percent of the labor in China's vaunted export sector.

If you don't appreciat the hukau system you don't appreciate China. Astonishing.

Ron Woo said...

@SimoninLondon
"@Ron Woo - Huns and Mongols never got anywhere near the Netherlands! Sheesh! That's just incredibly stupid & ignorant. Don't you have a map? A history book? Are you confusing them with the Hungarians?"

The Franks would have definitely absorbed remnant Hunnic populations and those Teutonic tribes were moving around anyway during the Great Migration Period - you can read all about it in books found at your local library.

Anonymous said...

"Huns and Mongols never got anywhere near the Netherlands"

Not as Huns or Mongols but mixed in with Goths, Alans, Vandals etc. How much of that is Altaic and how much is Anatolians that took the northern route via the steppe is a different question.

"There's a British commenter her...... Simon in London. He claims that white chavs and blacks are a lot more dangerous than Pakistanis/Bangladeshis."

White people aren't the least violent by a long way. It only seems so relative to the usual comparison.

The thing with both black and white violence is it's both individual based and terriotory based whereas with Pakistanis and Bangladeshis it's much more likely to be collective terriotorial violence than individual.

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