February 22, 2014

Chicks dig Right Sector

From the NYT:
Growing Support, and Tea From Young Women, Embolden Kiev Street Fighters 
By ANDREW E. KRAMER   FEB. 21, 2014 
KIEV, Ukraine — The street fighters in Independence Square, kitted out with motorcycle helmets, plywood shields and baseball bats, are an intimidating lot by any measure, and this week they turned whole battalions of riot police officers on their heels in epic, bloody clashes that stunned the world. ...
The exploits and fearsome appearance of the fighters, known as the defenders of Maidan, as the square is known, have been elevated to lore, at least among supporters of the opposition. Old men pat them on the back, children revere them, and women want to be their girlfriends.
“They are the best Ukrainians,” said Olena Iaschuk, 26, a website editor with a ready smile, who was making the rounds of the barricades to offer warm tea from a thermos, stepping gingerly among heaps of paving bricks. “They are the bravest men, they are fighting for our freedom, they defend us and they are our heroes.” 

Well, the Ukraine girls really knock me out, they leave the West behind.
If Independence Square has become a crucible to test physical courage, many of the men who passed that test say they could not have done so without the undying enthusiasm of people like her. 
Of course, not everyone considers them heroes. Within their ranks are fighters who tried to immolate the police with petroleum bombs, and some groups of protesters have been sustained and driven by dark, nationalistic ideologies from Ukraine’s past. But many, if not most, people in Kiev wholeheartedly support the men. 
The adulation is palpable and only grew this week. “We want to cheer them up, and we want to support them,” Ms. Iaschuk explained. “They smile, and they say thank you for the tea, and sometimes ask for our telephone numbers. And we say, ‘No, boys, only after you bring us victory.’ ” 
Her friend Galyna Kolodkevych, 26, a professor of Ukrainian literature at a college in Kiev, said she wanted to marry one of the men as soon as possible. Her future husband, she said, should belong “only to the Right Sector,” a coalition of hard-line street groups that have played a prominent role in the fighting. ...

Above is a Right Sector propaganda video.

According to a Reuters article, "Insiders say the group has its origins among nationalist-minded soccer fans - the word 'sector' in Russian denotes the spectator terraces of a stadium - and includes individuals from far-right organizations from across the country." But don't trust me to get translations right. (By the way, more than a few Right Sector fighters are Russian-speakers.)

On the other hand, here is pro-Ukrainian Yale historian Timothy Snyder, author of Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, in the New York Review of Books trying hard to assure the New York Review's elderly leftist subscribers that Moscow, not Kiev, now represents the real right wing. In contrast, Snyder explains, "An important hotline that [Ukraine] protesters call when they need help is staffed by LGBT activists."

I don't know, though. Judging from videos, the lads who retook Independence Square from the riot police on Thursday and who are (if still alive) presumably enjoying tonight the traditional rewards offered to a nation's brave young men by its appreciative young women don't look too gay to me.
The objects of this outpouring of admiration are men like Dmitry Iliuk, 29, a classical violinist who teaches music in a high school in the town of Verkhovyna, in western Ukraine. 
Thursday morning found Mr. Iliuk crouching behind a plywood shield, preparing for a dramatic and risky offensive to reverse an effort by the police to press into the square two days earlier. Protesters opened a breach in their barricades shortly after dawn, then ran a hundred yards or so across a scorched buffer zone to confront — and quickly push back — the riot police, who were firing shotguns at them. It was an action that turned the tide, but also cost the lives of at least 70 people. 
“I was not afraid, not one drop,” Mr. Iliuk said. “There was just one idea in my head: ‘Run forward.’ ” 
He was wearing a red ski helmet and ski goggles, and carrying a baseball bat attached to a cord looped around his wrist, lest it be knocked out of his hands, which are more accustomed to delicate musical instruments. “All around me, people were wounded because the police had nothing left to do but shoot, and they shot.

Roman Tokar, 31, a lawyer from Zolochiv in western Ukraine who wore an ill-fitting vest of bulbous plastic plates originally intended for dirt-bike riding, said he was continually scared but overcame his fear because of the support he felt from residents of the capital. 
“I can’t drink any more tea, but they keep bringing me tea,” he said. “We are even joking now, telling the women, ‘Stop, you are making the defenders of Maidan fat.’ It’s really pleasant, and we really love these brave girls and even grandmothers who offer us tea.”

Simon in London comments:
Right Sector don't look much like the typical Soros-ite types. 
So if the US/EU backed side actually won in Ukraine, next thing we know the USA/NATO would likely be dropping bombs on their own guys in the cause of Totalitarian Liberalism?     

Hopefully not. But, at minimum, the winds of change in 2014 are blowing fast and they're not blowing in the conventional wisdom's direction.
 

161 comments:

Simon in London said...

Right Sector don't look much like the typical Soros-ite types.
So if the US/EU backed side actually won in Ukraine, next thing we know the USA/NATO would likely be dropping bombs on their own guys in the cause of Totalitarian Liberalism?

Seen It Before said...

Gosh, it reminds me of all those hippy girls in 1968.

And-- oh, hell-- of all the girls in all the history books smiling at the young men headed to battle and handing white feathers to the prudent shirkers-- then f*cking those same shirkers later while the eager-beager veterans are in rehab learning to stumble around on their artificial limbs.

5371 said...

According to the lists of those killed, 80% of them are from the western oblasts, less than 20% from Kiev or its own oblast. So much for the guff about the "ordinary people of Kiev".

Anonymous said...

The neocons don't want Galician nationalists to win. That was one of the points of that leaked tape. They want their own guy, Arsenyuk, in power. They're just using West Ukrainian nationalists as tools.

Mr. Anon said...

".....and some groups of protesters have been sustained and driven by dark, nationalistic ideologies from Ukraine’s past."

To the Times, all nationalist beliefs are "dark".

T.A.WILSON said...

Those folksy riot shields with the Wewelsburg Black Sun, wow. That video in it's entirety, it feels like a dystopian fiction and plays strikingly against the recent flood of "this has gotta go viral" sympathy/spectacle videos.

Anonymous said...

The winds aren't changing. I know someone who went to Kiev and took photos and one of the girls in the background was some frumpy Zuckerberg Lookalike Wife Asian girl (like you know her thick legs)

I nearly fell out of my chair and was like 'WTF Is the Background?'

That's when I doubted this whole thing...(I'm a girl ftr...it's amazing how lower tier asian women just end up anywhere there is a white guy)

So yeah...totally confused...





fnn said...

"...some groups of protesters have been sustained and driven by dark, nationalistic ideologies from Ukraine’s past."

The restraint is so obvious as to be comical. No cries of "neo-nazi" or "anti-Semite."

RonMexico said...

"Carrying a baseball bat". Are these Louisville Sluggers, or Easton aluminums, or perhaps just clubs. The writer describes them as baseball bats, though. How the hell did they get there?

Steve Sailer said...

Michael Vick asks:

"Carrying a baseball bat". How the hell did they get there?"

Theodore Dalrymple has noted that in Britain baseball bats seems to be used more in assaults than in sports.

On the other hand, sporting uses of baseball bats aren't wholly unknown in Britain. In one of the Bridget Jones novels, our heroine is invited to participate in a softball game on Hampstead Heath.

As for Ukraine, I won't pretend to have a clue.

Miguel S. said...

"The heroic struggle of Bogdan Khmelnytsky" -- not helping.

Steve Sailer said...

"Bohdan Zynoviy Mykhailovych Khmelnytsky (Ukrainian: Богдан Зиновій Михайлович Хмельницький; Russian: Богда́н Хмельни́цкий, Bogdan Khmelnitsky; Polish: Bohdan Zenobi Chmielnicki (c. 1595 – 6 August 1657), was the Hetman of the Zaporozhian Host of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (now part of Ukraine). He led an uprising against the Commonwealth and its magnates (1648–1654) which resulted in the creation of a Cossack state. ...

In Ukraine, Khmelnytsky is generally regarded as a national hero[17][18][19] and a father of the nation. ...

Khmelnytsky's role in the history of the Polish State has been viewed mostly in a negative light. ...

In their assessment of Khmelnytsky's legacy the official Russian historiography stressed the fact that Khmelnytsky entered into union with Moscow's Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich with an expressed desire to "re-unify" Ukraine with Russia. This view corresponded with the official theory of Moscow being an heir of the Kievan Rus' and thus a gatherer of its former territories.[23]
In this light Khmelnytsky was viewed as a national hero of Russia for bringing Ukraine into the "eternal union" of all the Russias — Great, Little and White Russia.

Jewish history's assessement of Khmelnytsky is overwhelmingly negative given that he had made eradication of Jews from Ukraine one of his goals.

Anonymous said...

A one-time Russian girlfriend of mine reported that in Russia itself it is a truism that a) the women in neighboring Ukraine are hott beyond belief but b) Ukrainian men are usually butt-ugly, so it all evens out.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone else see a connection between the vast quantities of baseball bats showing up in Ukraine, and that famous photo of Gaddafi's executioner wearing a Yankees cap?

Play ball, everyone.

SFG said...

"And-- oh, hell-- of all the girls in all the history books smiling at the young men headed to battle and handing white feathers to the prudent shirkers-- then f*cking those same shirkers later while the eager-beager veterans are in rehab learning to stumble around on their artificial limbs."

I have my doubts that started in 1968.

Anonymous said...

There's a close-up of a Sun Cross at 1.49.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross

Anonymous said...

".....and some groups of protesters have been sustained and driven by dark, nationalistic ideologies from Ukraine’s past."

To the Times, all nationalist beliefs are "dark".

-----

Unless of course the nationalists are dark.

Gilbert P.

Anonymous said...

You've got to see the bigger picture, the whole chess game. To the west priority number 1 is to weaken Putin at all costs - that the anti- Putinites might be fascists and anti-semites matters to them not a damn, getting Putin is the over arching name of the game. He's the king and the Ukrainians are merely pawns, pawns which will no doubt be mopped up when the time is right. Look how this whole crisis blew up in the first place the evil EU trying to encroach its purlieus on what have always been ' Russian' lands. Basically it's all big board clasic empire building or destroying 19th century geopolitics, with the EU playing the part of Britain. As I said the name of the game is to undermine and weaken Putin the one man the neocons fear.

Anonymous said...

"The heroic struggle of Bogdan Khmelnytsky" -- not helping.

But they left out Stepan Bandera.

Rob said...

"An important hotline that [Ukraine] protesters call when they need help is staffed by LGBT activists."

I thought you were taking things too far with all your talk of "World War T". Now I know better.

Dan said...

Nothing good ever comes out of Ukraine.

Not even the women, not even the grain.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH7Pqn5s3Xk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yi-SxAhj-I

Dan said...

When we await news in Ukraine, the news is almost always bad news.

Anonymous said...

And if the Right Sector loses, how quickly will they submit to the new Dominant Men?

Anonymous said...

"some groups of protesters have been sustained and driven by dark, nationalistic ideologies from Ukraine’s past."

Ah, the grey lady and her bland, impartial choice of words!

Translation from NYT-speak to English: "When their ancestors were being starved to death by Kaganovich, our reporter in the Soviet Union announced 'I have seen the future and it works'."

slumber_j said...

Steve Sailer said...

"On the other hand, sporting uses of baseball bats aren't wholly unknown in Britain. In one of the Bridget Jones novels, our heroine is invited to participate in a softball game on Hampstead Heath."

And of course, Jane Austen famously mentions baseball in Northanger Abbey.

Then there was The Baseball Ground, Derby's soccer stadium until the late '90s, which was the final remnant of a late-1890s effort to introduce professional baseball in England.

Volksverhetzer said...

Ukraine was called "Big Sweden -Svitjod hin stora" by the saga writers, while Sweden was "Svitjod"

Tjod is the same word as Dutch, and means people, and another name for the Svitjod are the Rus and Swedes(Svear). Swedes are still called Rus by the Finns, and the original landscape of the Svear in Sweden, is called Roslagen, meaning the law of the Rus.

If Russia and Ukraine was the America of the Swedes, just the British Islands were the America of the Danes and Anglo-Saxons, it is not very strange that there are a lot of good looking women there.

It also explains why Sweden fought so much in Eastern Europe, and thought it fair that they should rule, like the Brits in the USA.

slumber_j said...

Off-topic, but thank God these unwittingly racist-appearing high-school wrestlers got what was coming to them:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/high-school-wrestlers-in-new-jersey-apologize-for-photo-seen-as-racist/?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article

I find it fascinating that the hooded sweatshirt can take on so many and such strikingly discordant symbolic values in our Ongoing National Smackdown on Race--for example, in this case functioning as a KKK hood manqué. Such a rich text to interrogate!!

Shouting Thomas said...

Chicks dig drama.

Heartiste's theories often seem to hold up, don't they?

Anonymous said...

To the Times, all nationalist beliefs are "dark".

Well, except for one particular nationalism.

Nachos for breakfast said...

"On the other hand, here is pro-Ukrainian Yale historian Timothy Snyder, author of Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, in the New York Review of Books trying hard to assure the New York Review's elderly leftist subscribers that Moscow, not Kiev, now represents the real right wing. In contrast, Snyder explains, "An important hotline that [Ukraine] protesters call when they need help is staffed by LGBT activists.""

-Of course! Little is more important to leftists than keeping the PR and images correct. If these are the 'good guys' they must be trans*queer feminist Afro-muslim freedom fighters crushing evil white men who are being selfish by not giving what they own to the 'good guys'. And we can know they're the good guys because they're unwilling to speak to anyone else other than LGBTQABCDEFG staffers on the phone.

Big Bill said...

Notice how the elite is no longer talking about how anti-Semitic the Ukrainians are?

The author of the NYT article blew a dog whistle for Jews with his "dark, nationalistic ideologies from Ukraine’s past".

It seems crazy to me that Jews (Nuland et al.) are stoking up this frenzy. The Right Sector (like pretty much all Ukrainians) views Bogdan Chmielewski as a hero who liberated Ukrainians from Polish/Jewish slavery. That is not going to change no matter what coalition wins.

RonMexico said...

Maybe the mystery is solved: Custom Beachwood Bats, Customized Beach Wood Baseball Bat ...
www.goyayabats.com/beech-wood-bats
Beech Wood Bats A Five Year Search to Find the Perfect Bat Wood. There are over 200 wooden bat makers in the world. We are the only ones making bats out of Ukrainian ...
The website is taking an eternity to load, so I don't know if they are manufactured in Ukraine, available in Ukraine?

leftist conservative said...

as is typical, the american media is keeping americans in the dark about what is going on over there.

From wikipedia, reggarding what appears to be the major factor in the riots, the Svoboda party:
-------------------
"Svoboda’s socioeconomic platform has been described as similar to that of the Republican Party for the United States, and its approach to ethnic relations as mirroring policy in the Baltic states.[17]"
--------------
end quote///


Hmm...so this Svoboda is like the GOP, then? OK, let's dig into their platform, then, and see if the established is correct (wikipedia always mirrors the conventional wisdom):

from wikipedia:

------------
Points in the Svoboda party programme (have) include(d):


Only those born in Ukraine can become Ukrainian citizens, with the exceptions for those who have lived in Ukraine for more than 15 years, know the Ukrainian language, culture and Ukrainian Constitution[65]
...
Ban on abortion, except in cases of medical necessity, or rape;[65][92] and imprisonment from three to seven years for those who violate this ban[92]
Criminalization of public promotion of abortions or calls for abortions (by introducing a fine for doing so)[92]
The right to keep and bear arms[65]
Cancelling taxes on Ukrainian language products — films, music and literature — and instead imposing taxes on non-Ukrainian language products.[93] The proceeds obtained this way will be channeled into developing Ukrainian language products[93]
Nationalization of major enterprises,[93] greater state control of the banking system and a ban on privatization of land[65]

Energy independence for Ukraine[93]
The development of competitive industries, particularly food processing and aircraft engineering, shipbuilding, machine-tool construction, machine manufacturing, the military industrial complex and the aerospace industry[93]
Ban on the import of the food products that are also produced inside Ukraine and import only exotic food that is not domestically grown[93]


Proportional representation on executive bodies of ethnic Ukrainians, on the one hand, and national minorities, on the other[38][49][94]

Preferential treatment for Ukrainian students in the allocation of dormitory places, and a series of similar changes to existing legal provisions[49]

Abolition of value added tax[2]
Farmlands are to be state-owned and given to farmers in hereditary use[2]
The state is to implement a firm pro-family policy[2]

Decommunization of public space (monuments, names of streets and places)[2]
Russia should apologize "for its communist crimes"[2]
Ukraine is to leave the Commonwealth of Independent States "and other post-Soviet structures"[2]


Ukraine should again re-acquire tactical nuclear weaponry[2]


----------------

end quote///

this is pure populism.

The American media cannot or will not explain this phenomenon. This has nothing to do with the GOP. The GOP is faux-populist and in truth is a tool of the corporations and the rich.

Anonymous said...

"Right Sector don't look much like the typical Soros-ite types."

They'll use whatever is available... but if that's all that is available?

IHTG said...

People ITT sure hate winning

Anonymous said...

".....sustained and driven by dark, nationalistic ideologies from Ukraine’s past."

You could say the same about the NYT.

Also, yet another example of the staggering level of disparate impact within the US media.

5'o clock shadow said...

Its going to turn out that all those Ukrainian brides sent to the four corners of the earth are actually secret sleeper operatives for the Ukrainian government who are silently taking control of the reins of power behind the scene. All of this Right Sector business is just a diversionary tactic so the ladies can go on behind the scenes undisturbed. Pretty soon there will be a Ukrainian flag flying over all the legislative buildings on earth. All will soon learn that Ukraine not weak, Ukraine strong!!

Z Blog said...

Steve, I don't think the continental right-left model works for US audiences. On the continent, socialism is the default for all parties. What has always divided their Left and Right is nationalism. Hitler was a nationalist and Stalin was an internationalist. The role of the state in the life of the citizen is not up for debate.

The Marxist historian Hobsbawm described 20th century continental history as a war between two religions, Fascism and Marxism. Any reading of the EU project has to conclude Fascism won the fight.

Anonymous said...

Just watched that Right Sector video. When the voiceover guy said that they're fighting against "the sellout, marginal democracy," Yatsenyuk's face was on the screen just as the word sellout was being spit out. Yatsenyuk is Vicky Nuland's guy.

Anonymous said...

Steve, you laugh at the elderly readers of the new york review of books who see anti semetism behind every corner. But at the same you post comments from the exterminationist anti semites. I recall you posting a comment from someone who blamed the holdomer on the jewish people when of course stalin was Georgian

Anonymous said...

Perhaps a little off topic, but of course the class of people that read the new york times demand massive immigration so that they can hire inexpensive nannies. Perhaps a compromise is in order where millions of young unkranian women move to new york for these nanny jobs, and the flow of immigrants from other places is ended?

ivvenalis said...

My assumption whenever this kind of street violence occurs (e.g. European Antifas) is that the satisfaction of engaging in it is its own reward. Street battles are essentially prehistoric tribal warfare; they lack the discipline even of successful pre-gunpowder armies, much less the fatalism of gunpowder armies or the squalid deprivation of the high explosive era.

The military success of ancient empires was essentially based on ensuring that their armies weren't *just* masses of boasting men hurling rocks and poking with each other.

Modern combat can be exhilarating but day-to-day life in a warzone sucks. The protesters don't need to dig in against artillery or hide from aircraft, they don't even need to take cover against bullets. Instead they can dress up, make speeches, charge into battle, maybe parade some captives. The odds of being helplessly slaughtered by tens or hundreds appears to be nonexistent. At night they enjoy the culinary and carnal attentions of women cooing over their valor.

Certainly seems a much better deal than what the Syrians are getting. And the Ukrainian government isn't Assad, so presumably they can keep it up as long as they wish.

hbd chick said...

@michael vick - "Carrying a baseball bat". How the hell did they get there?"

@steve - "As for Ukraine, I won't pretend to have a clue."

as far as i've seen, you can buy baseball bats in almost any sports store throughout europe. and most people, i'm sure, buy them for protection (or as offensive weapons =/ ).

europeans (people all over the world) watch plenty of hollywood movies -- they've picked up on the whole baseball-bat-as-weapon thing. it's a way to buy a "weapon" in countries where it's usually really hard to legally buy a real weapon.

many of my family members back in the old country (in europe) have baseball bats at home for defensive purposes -- none of them know the first thing about baseball!

hbd chick said...

p.s. - in the sports stores in europe where i've seen baseball bats for sale, they often don't carry mitts or baseballs, etc.! (~_^)

Dan said...

It looks like Ukraine has been overrun by Dark Ages re-enactor societies. When does William the Bastard or Harald Hardrada show up?

Anonymous said...

Baseball bats are very popular with european football hooligans and skinheads. They don't play baseball though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmn0OzQHDo4

Anonymous said...

They're fighting for the right to move out of the Ukraine and have Africans and Muslims move in. It's a land fit for 'eroes, I tell you.

Semi-employed White Guy said...

I remember something about Matt Taibbi having played baseball in Russia so maybe it is played in Ukraine as well.

Anonymous said...

When it finally happens here the mobs won't be carrying stinkin' baseball bats. Won't be no party or no disco either.

Heard about Houston? Heard about Detroit? Heard about Pittsburgh PA?

Anonymous said...

Does the NYT ever feel any cognitive dissonance?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/opinion/the-go-to-congresswoman-on-gun-control-packs-it-in.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

Luke Lea said...

Sailer writes: "Jewish history's assessement of Khmelnytsky is overwhelmingly negative given that he had made eradication of Jews from Ukraine one of his goals."

For those readers, Jewish and gentile alike, who may not be aware, the Cossack rebellion can only be understood in its economic and political context. When the Polish nobility colonized the Ukraine they imported their Ashkenazi help-mates to manage their feudal estates under the so-called arenda system. These Ashkenazis were essentially overseers of a semi-enslaved peasantry in the service of a largely absentee land-owning elite, as was often the case throughout Poland.

Thus when the Cossacks rebelled it was not an anit-Semitic pogrom as it was a political rebellion of an oppressed people directed at their oppressors (the Polish nobility) and their accomplices (the Jewish minority)

Of course the Ashkenazi memory of the event was wholly ethnocentric, as were their memories of most of their persecutions in central and eastern Europe for a thousand years. Why so ethno-centric? Well, mainly because their descendants were (and remain) almost entirely ignorant of their own secular history, the literate elite of the time being wholly consumed with Torah study and living in small communities that enjoyed special privileges and legal immunities and, what is more, never learned to speak or understand the Polish (or Ukrainian) languages over the centuries.

Without this sociological context of course the Polish and Ukrainian people seem hopelessly and inexplicably -- or else religously -- anti-semitic when in fact the Polish people were the least anti-Semitic people in Europe with the greatest excuse to feel the other way.

Go figure.

Anonymous said...

http://gawker.com/cleaning-lady-throws-away-expensive-modern-art-she-mist-1527595660?rev=1392964510&utm

Anonymous said...

"In contrast, Snyder explains, "An important hotline that [Ukraine] protesters call when they need help is staffed by LGBT activists."

Because they like homos or because homos are lending them aid against Russia.

Nixon supported China against the USSR but that didn't make him communist or Mao capitalist.

And Nazi SA was full of homos. So, what does that prove?
And EU is working with Saudi Arabia.

All this proves is that politics produces odd bedfellows.

Anonymous said...

Like the Chechen war, this is right vs right. Nationalism vs nationalism.

But if Ukraine had someone of quality like Ataturk, this could have been avoided. But it's been ruled by Slavic trash from day one.

And Putin, by investing everything on the top thug of Ukraine while ignoring the problems faced by the people paved the way for this.

Porter said...

I'm not sure which parties would object to a peaceful partition where dark nationalist Russians in the east were absorbed into their motherland, and dark nationalist Euro Ukrainians broke off their own sovereign nation in the west.

Though I'd probably need to vet that notion through the good nationalist AIPAC-Americans.

Billl said...

I was listening to Snyder yesterday on NPR, and laughed out loud when he started trying to explain how not all the people being called Nazis are necessarily the bad guys. The distinction, according to Snyder, had something to do with Putin and the gays.

Snyder et al are likely to find themselves highly disappointed if they think Ukrainian nationalists are going to tolerate Pride marches in Kiev.

But maybe - just maybe - gays secretly think Ukrainian skinheads are super-hot compared stodgy Orthodox Russians, and if you have to choose sides...

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

The ideology of the protestors means nothing to the US/NATO globalists.

Ukrainian Nationalists are simply tools to be discarded once they are no longer useful.

As Alexander Dugin said in a recent interview:

Interviewer: Any group taking side in favor of the West is a “good” group with no respect if it is extremist?

Dugin: Yes and any group taking side against the West – even if this group is secular and moderate – will be called “extremist” by the Western propaganda. This approach exactly dominates the geopolitical battlefields today. You can be the most radical and brutal Salafi fighter, you can hate Jews and eat human organs in front of a camera, as long as you fight for the Western interest against the Syrian government you are a respected and supported ally of the West. When you defend a multi-religious, secular and moderate society, all ideals of the West by the way, but you take position against the Western interest like the Syrian government, you are the enemy. Nobody is interested in what you believe in, it is only about the geopolitical side you chose if you are right or wrong in the eyes of the Western hegemon.

Anonymous said...

"But they left out Stepan Bandera."

No, they didn't. The Right Sector's web site is called http://banderivets.org.ua. Banderivets means Bandera-ite.

Ed said...

@Luke Lea: A lot of major incidents of "anti-Semitism" are based on either economic or nationalistic factors. Isabella didn't kick Jews out of Spain because she hated their religion. She kicked them out because they sided with the Muslims. The Muslims lost so naturally their allies would be punished. Of course that bit of history is conveniently neglected from mainstream teaching of the Inquisition.

Anonymous said...

@ lukelea -

You're right that we should examine the Khmelnystsky rebellion in context. However, even though it may not have started out as a pogrom, it certainly turned into a massive one. Were all Ukrainian Jews in the 17th century estate managers for absentee Polish landlords? If not, why did those others deserve to die at the hands of the Cossacks? If you think that all Jews should suffer collectively for the sins of a few Jews, why shouldn't the same be visited on you, for example with regard to slavery in the American South?

Anonymous said...

"Jewish history's assessement of Khmelnytsky is overwhelmingly negative given that he had made eradication of Jews from Ukraine one of his goals."

Source?

Galileo's PUA tips said...

A bit early for the April Fools parodies of Steveosphere foreign-affairs blogging, isn't it

Hunsdon said...

Anonydroid at 6:29 AM said: Steve, you laugh at the elderly readers of the new york review of books who see anti semetism behind every corner. But at the same you post comments from the exterminationist anti semites.

Hunsdon said: Please, sir. I am a restrictionist at most.

Anonymous said...

Useful idiots is the best word one can describe them unfortuanetly. While I have no doubt there is big corruption and all of that in Ukraine. They have essentially helped bring about EU rule, which means they will be swiftly swatted by the new power structures and Ukraine will begin its inevitable slide to nationhood doom just like France, Germany, Spain, England etc.

Anyone think I am engaging in hyperbole, think how Britain changed from 1960 to now, Ukraine will face and even faster replacement of new people.

Hunsdon said...

Anonydroid at 8:32 AM said: But if Ukraine had someone of quality like Ataturk, this could have been avoided. But it's been ruled by Slavic trash from day one.

Hunsdon said: What was that exterminationist meme I was hearing about, again? Is that you, DR?

Anonymous said...

And here from years of reading the comments section, I thought white women hated, hated, hated white men.

Anonymous said...

"In contrast, Snyder explains, "An important hotline that [Ukraine] protesters call when they need help is staffed by LGBT activists."

...

All this proves is that politics produces odd bedfellows."

It proves it's a neocon operation. The same people funding this trouble are funding Pussy Riot.

.

"I recall you posting a comment from someone who blamed the holdomer on the jewish people when of course stalin was Georgian"

No reasonable person would blame all Jews collectively, even those who opposed the Bolsheviks at the time and especially not those who weren't even born at the time for what the Bolsheviks did to the non-Jews who lived in the old Pale of Settlement.

Chicago said...

Was the video produced by locals or was it put together by outside 'consultants'? Things seem rather murky at this point. Does the western part want to secede and become an independent country that then joins the EU? Would such a state be economically viable? Would the EU be interested in having such a state join? Or is this an attempt to grab all of the Ukraine? It'd be nice to be a fly on the wall and listen in on the discussions of the various schemers involved.

Hunsdon said...

You know, I thought that Henryk Sienkowicz really provided a very nuanced portrait of Khmelnitsky is "With Fire and Sword." A man overtaken by events, yes, a man tortured by his demons, yes, but not the unrelieved monster that you might expect a Polish nationalist to take, particularly in an epic devoted to Polish nationalism (and coming at a bad time for Poland).

I always get a kick out of the fact that Bogdan Stupka played both Khmelnitsky (in the film version of "With Fire and Sword") and Taras Bulba in the recent eponymous film.

Yeah, Stupka pretty much is my vision of a Ukrainian hetman. Wonder what his take on this is?

Alexandros HoMegas said...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0002_0_01275.html

In the 16th and 17th centuries the Jews in Red Russia also occupied a not insignificant place in the lease of customs, salt mines, taxes from drinks, etc. The lessees of these large economic undertakings often contracted them out to sublessees, mainly to Jews, as well. That Jews actually operated customs stations is attested by customs registers of 1580, written in mixed Hebrew and Yiddish, even where and when the prohibition on Jewish customs leasing formally remained in force. Jewish expertise and financial ability in this field were in demand. Jews are later found as silent partners of the nominal Christian lessees, often Armenians.

Hunsdon said...

Luke Lea said: Thus when the Cossacks rebelled it was not an anit-Semitic pogrom as it was a political rebellion of an oppressed people directed at their oppressors (the Polish nobility) and their accomplices (the Jewish minority)

Hunsdon said: This tracks with my understanding as well.

Bert said...

Looks like Yanukovych is getting ready to ask Russia to invade.

Anonymous said...

"as is typical, the american media is keeping americans in the dark about what is going on over there."

Nah, not the modern "American media," who know nothing about nothing. They simply parrot lines their keepers give them. Hey, it's a job.

Anonymous said...

Regarding the baseball bats, its only a guess but they could be everywhere because the are all made in China ?

Anonymous said...

You've got remember that the current situation is the long delayed reaction from Gorbachev's reign of error and madness in which the USSR basically catastrophically imploded, leaving the field right open for chancers, gangsters and demagogues. Russians did not accept Ukrainian independence then, after the Gorbachev nightmare and they don't accept it now. In fact they will never accept it. Sine geting power, Putin has been playing slowly slowly catchee monkey in order to get Ukraine back into the fold. And the comes the fuckwits of the EU smashing a size 14 dog shit laden boot on Putin's doorstep. The provocation of the EU is to barge in on what Russia regards as its heart and soul, never mind sphere of influence.
On another note, remember the way monster faced Yeltsin fired tank shells into the windows of dissenters? Remember not a peep of protest from the west only further goading and encouragement of Yeltsin the genuine political gangster and tyrant enriching himself whilst his people froze and starved egged on by some galactically stupid - and satanically evil - 'smart' Harvard economists. Putin is a very wise and canny man he knows exactly what the score is. Also he's a damned sight smarter than all of the western establishment. Rely on him to prevail when the dust finally settles.

Anonymous said...

The NYT reports on the Right Sector like this "Within their ranks are fighters who tried to immolate the police with petroleum bombs, and some groups of protesters have been sustained and driven by dark, nationalistic ideologies from Ukraine’s past. "

Russia Today (RT) reports on the Right Sector with this headline:'I'll be fighting Jews and Russians till I die': Ukrainian right-wing militants aiming for power

This should get interesting.

jody said...

"My assumption whenever this kind of street violence occurs (e.g. European Antifas) is that the satisfaction of engaging in it is its own reward"

south korea used to have regular street riots. this seems to have died down now.

the thrill of beating the shit out of somebody else - free and clear, without worrying about the police arresting you, jail time and fines, getting fired from your job, et cetera, all the usual consequences of even a simple street fight today in the first world nations - was certainly a motivating factor every time in the south korean riots. for a lot men, it's exciting and satisfying to be able to stomp the hell out other people once in a while, especially the authorities.

pretty much the reason you saw all those yuppy europeans and east asians rioting in vancouver after the canucks lost the stanley cup at home. college students with a lot to lose, who thought they could get away with going nuts. except here, they were wrong. they're still ID'ing and charging people today! 14 more people ID'd and arrested YESTERDAY, from a riot in 2011:

http://tinyurl.com/khspvh2

i bet some of the guys in the initial ukraine riots weren't even that politically motivated. just punters looking for a scrap. getting in some free punches. what IQ 90 loser with a rough life wouldn't like to punch some cops in the face, no consequences? those guys probably split though once lead started flying. only the serious rioters are left at that point. punters are rioters of opportunity. you see this all the time in the third world, or in the third world parts of the US. any excuse to riot, throw punches at random people, swing bats at police, smash car windows, and so forth.

David said...

"dark history" "dark goals" "dark ideas"

The more closely something can be associated specifically with light-skinned people, the "darker" it is said to be.

The "dark side" of a small town always means the white inhabitants only, for example.

I'm going to go take my dark, nefarious lunch break now. See you on the other side...of HELL.

SFG said...

"Perhaps a little off topic, but of course the class of people that read the new york times demand massive immigration so that they can hire inexpensive nannies. Perhaps a compromise is in order where millions of young unkranian women move to new york for these nanny jobs, and the flow of immigrants from other places is ended?"

I never thought I'd see a point where I could see common ground with some of the people around here, but I like this idea. White America could use a few reinforcements... and some of them might get to know some of the descendants of the authors of the first part of the Bible in a Biblical sense... ;)> -)---

Anonymous said...

I recall you posting a comment from someone who blamed the holdomer on the jewish people when of course stalin was Georgian

My God! You're right!

The jewish affiliations of Marx, Trotsky, Lenin, Yagoda, Kaganovich and the majority of early bolsheviks is utterly irrelevant.

Anonymous said...

"There's a close-up of a Sun Cross at 1.49."

The "Sun Cross" has been a widely used Christian symbol for thousands of years. Though it's conceivable that the Jews at Wikipedia see zero distinction between Christians and pagan skin-heads - history is not their strong point.

ATBOTL said...

"Right Sector don't look much like the typical Soros-ite types."

Rest assured, if the democratically elected government of Ukraine is overthrown, the USA and EU will attempt to put Soros lackeys in control.

"You've got to see the bigger picture, the whole chess game. To the west priority number 1 is to weaken Putin at all costs - that the anti- Putinites might be fascists and anti-semites matters to them not a damn, getting Putin is the over arching name of the game. He's the king and the Ukrainians are merely pawns, pawns which will no doubt be mopped up when the time is right. Look how this whole crisis blew up in the first place the evil EU trying to encroach its purlieus on what have always been ' Russian' lands. Basically it's all big board clasic empire building or destroying 19th century geopolitics, with the EU playing the part of Britain. As I said the name of the game is to undermine and weaken Putin the one man the neocons fear."

Exactly. The neocon establishment in DC is really angry that Putin stopped their war on Syria(in reality, it was the American people), so now they want revenge.

The neocons' ilk has a long history of living surrounded by enemies and using subterfuge and intrigue. They are not as uncomfortable with being in alliances with or using people who hate them as we would be. Neocons probably see Galician nationalists like they see Evangelical Protestants in America. Sure, they may be anti-Semitic, but they are also unsophisticated types who are likely to be particularly bad at political maneuvering and keeping their own interests straight in the face of a verbally facile media barrage.

Anonymous said...

"blamed the Holodomer on the Jewish people when Stalin was a Georgian."

So then the Holocaust should be blamed on the Austrians and not the Germans too, huh?

Anonymous said...

Baseball bats in Europe are weapons. People used to use pickaxe handles for the same purpose but bats are much easier to handle.

Anonymous said...

Zhirinovsky and Pamyat were tools of the KGB.

So gaygb could be pulling shit too.

DR said...

"Chicks dig drama.

Heartiste's theories often seem to hold up, don't they?"

Much of what Roissy says is true but only if you every time you see "Chicks" you substitute "Chicks [that put out]". As in "Chicks [that put out] dig drama." There are plenty of very sensible women who have no interest in violence or chaos, and just want to settle down to a quiet life. Needless to say these women are not the same ones you're going to find hanging out in a bar in the middle of a war zone.

If you're interested in having a casual, low-committment, good time with a bunch of different women, then there's a specific personality type you have to appeal to. That personality type is different than if you're looking to wife up and settle down. PUAs develop a self-selected skewed view of women based on overly sampling from the former distribution.

Anonymous said...

But but but Irving Kristol was Jewish haven't you seen the ten different posts making this point. I'm assuming it relevant because all the people posting it seemed really angry.

If only Daniel Larison has known about right sector in high school.

Disgruntled said...

One of my Russian students told me that baseball bats have been best sellers in Russia for a long time. He told me that everyone owns a baseball bat but no one plays baseball. He said it is still wink-wink, but everyone knows they're being purchased as weapons.

Anonymous said...

Arsen Avakov, Ukraine's new minister of Internal Affairs (=police) is an
ethnic Armenian who was on Interpol's wanted list just recently. Yulia Tymoshenko is half Russian and half Jewish. They, and their Euro liberal friends will be very disappointed that these guys said that they won't lay down arms and will, instead, ensure "order and discipline":
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/

RT.com are no fools. They know how powerful anti-Semitism charges are in propaganda.

Felix said...

The fact that the heavy lifting (and falling) is being done by nationalist "anti-semites" is a feature, not a bug. We all know who is going to be in charge when the dust settles, assuming the nationalists win.

Step 1: Nationalists "win."

Step 2: The EU and the demons of "Westernization" come calling. A certain historically oppressed minority makes some bucks.

Step 3: Some decades hence, the Ukraine is a nation of mulattos. The END.

Sheila said...

Thank you, Luke Lea, for an excellent and highly educational comment. Of course, fact is always less palatable to people than what their "bubbe and zeide" told them, but I am glad to see it, nonetheless.

David said...

Luke, a ray of great clarity there. Good comment.

Anonymous said...

Luke Lea sayz: having a significant representation among the managerial class justifies being subject to mass murder.

I guess blacks should really ramp up their knock-out game.

--
Luke is absolutely correct though that the Khmelnitsky uprisings were not aimed only at Jews, but just as much at Poles. So what? That makes it better? On the contrary, it makes it even worse.

Anonymous said...

"If you think that all Jews should suffer collectively for the sins of a few Jews, why shouldn't the same be visited on you, for example with regard to slavery in the American South?"

Viva Nat Turner, I guess.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 2/22/14, 11:44 AM wrote sarcastically:

My God! You're right!
The jewish affiliations of Marx,
Trotsky, Lenin, Yagoda, Kaganovich and the majority of early bolsheviks is utterly irrelevant.


Far be it from me to make light of the evil of Lenin and Kaganovich or anyone else on your list. They were all loathsome and evil. But Lenin was only one-quarter Jewish. You and your fellows commenters at this site also consistently fail to mention Kaganovich's most important collaborator as architect of collectivization, the non-Jewish Postyshev who was Stalin's personal appointee. I agree with you that the mainstream media and all too many American Jews wear blinders where the horrors of Bolshevism are concerned. But would it hurt you to present your argument with more objectivity and less bile?

irishman said...

hbd chick
"as far as i've seen, you can buy baseball bats in almost any sports store throughout europe. and most people, i'm sure, buy them for protection (or as offensive weapons =/ ).

europeans (people all over the world) watch plenty of hollywood movies -- they've picked up on the whole baseball-bat-as-weapon thing. it's a way to buy a "weapon" in countries where it's usually really hard to legally buy a real weapon.

many of my family members back in the old country (in europe) have baseball bats at home for defensive purposes -- none of them know the first thing about baseball!"

Metal ones are the order of the day here. Gun control is a bitch. I've never seen anyone play baseball. Can't understand why they'd want to either TBH. Paint drying.

Anonymous said...

If you think that all Jews should suffer collectively for the sins of a few Jews, why shouldn't the same be visited on you, for example with regard to slavery in the American South?

Assuming you are pro-Jewish, that is a bad example because Jews too owned slaves in the South and were even high ranking officials of the Confederate government. I get the point of what you are trying to say, but you would condemn Jews to the same fate as Southern Whites with this example.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Ukrainian brides, hundreds of thousands of young Ukrainian women are already employed in Poland (illegally) as nannies and maids. The human ties between Poland and Ukraine are still very strong, based as they are on centuries of common history and common resistance to Russian expansionism in the last 200 years. Moreover, Polish and Ukrainian languages are almost mutually comprehensible, more so than Polish and Russian. Such historical tidbits should make the active engagement of Radek Sikorski, Poland's foreign minister, in the Ukrainian crisis easier to understand

Anonymous said...

"Assuming you are pro-Jewish, that is a bad example because Jews too owned slaves in the South and were even high ranking officials of the Confederate government. I get the point of what you are trying to say, but you would condemn Jews to the same fate as Southern Whites with this example."

I think what he meant is that neither Jews nor Poles nor Southern whites should have been slaughtered.

Anonymous said...

You sure Steve, I still think its the flowers that get the women in Ukraine, check out the video about 1:18 in:

http://live.wsj.com/video/photos-of-the-month-valentines-in-kiev/E8769513-C5A0-4CE2-8F5D-34C3037B6F74.html?mod=trending_now_video_3#!E8769513-C5A0-4CE2-8F5D-34C3037B6F74

Anonymous said...

"Speaking of Ukrainian brides, hundreds of thousands of young Ukrainian women are already employed in Poland (illegally) as nannies and maids. The human ties between Poland and Ukraine are still very strong, based as they are on centuries of common history and common resistance to Russian expansionism in the last 200 years. Moreover, Polish and Ukrainian languages are almost mutually comprehensible, more so than Polish and Russian. Such historical tidbits should make the active engagement of Radek Sikorski, Poland's foreign minister, in the Ukrainian crisis easier to understand."

I don't know how it is now, but 70 years ago, Galicians slaughtered 100,000 Polish civilians.

The active engagement of the Poles is more attributable to the universal policy of "the enemy of my (greatest) enemy is my friend." Russia is the greatest enemy to the Poles today, while Galicians pose no threat.

Sailerbot Strategy said...

Mr. Anon said...

Mr. Anon said...

To the Times, all nationalist beliefs are "dark

To the Times, all white nationalist beliefs are 'dark'

Fixed that for you.


Anonymous said...

I never thought I'd see a point where I could see common ground with some of the people around here, but I like this idea. White America could use a few reinforcements... and some of them might get to know some of the descendants of the authors of the first part of the Bible in a Biblical sense...

That, in fact, is one of the better arguments for keeping them as far away from America as possible.

Anonymous said...

exterminationist anti semites

Okay, show me one example of "exterminationism" ever making it past Komment Kontrol.

JUST ONE EXAMPLE.

***************
***************
***************

I recall you posting a comment from someone who blamed the holdomer on the jewish people

And while you're searching for that one example, maybe you could take a break every now and then and read about how Meir Henoch Mojszewicz Wallach-Finkelstein told Gareth Jones that "WELL, THERE IS NO FAMINE."

Or, for that matter, how the Ochs family's house stooge, Walter Duranty, told their readership EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

Anonymous said...

"But maybe - just maybe - gays secretly think Ukrainian skinheads are super-hot compared stodgy Orthodox Russians, and if you have to choose sides..."

Gays don't decide these things. The neocons are supporting West Ukrainian nationalists against East Ukrainians and Putin because Ukrainian nationalism is weaker than Russian nationalism. The neocons are playing divide and rule, and when you do that you have to support the weaker of your two enemies against the stronger one.

The neocons also support Sunni Al Qaeda against Assad and the Shia in the Middle East. They're not doing it because they like Al Qaeda. They're doing it because they hate it. They want their enemies to fight each other. It's divide and rule.

Anonymous said...

This is sort of like when Brzezinski went to Afghanistan to meet the mujahideen after the Soviets invaded and told them that their "cause is just" and that "God is on their side" while funneling money and arms to them to fight the Soviets.

Also like how the US supported/supports jihadists in Lybia and Syria to go after Gaddafi and Assad.

Anonymous said...

Photos of the People's Deputies in Ukraine, more or less the Ukranian political class:

http://static.rada.gov.ua/site/eng/dep/list.html

Donets Tetyana Anatoliyivna is ridiculously hot. The Deputies are not so big on smiling for the camera.

The fears of Rightism on the part of the Ukrainian ethnics seems overblown to me. Tyahnybok is usually held up as an example, but his party won 10% of the vote in 2012 and as a presidential candidate he won less than 2%. Le Pen is more popular in France.

Ukraine is 20 years out from Communism, and for the last 100 years decent democrats have been rounded up and executed every time the place changed hands. They're not doing too badly, considering.

Anonymous said...

"You've got remember that the current situation is the long delayed reaction from Gorbachev's reign of error and madness in which the USSR basically catastrophically imploded, leaving the field right open for chancers, gangsters and demagogues. Russians did not accept Ukrainian independence then, after the Gorbachev nightmare and they don't accept it now."

This commenter knows what he's talking about. I agree 100% with the entire comment. This stuff seems obvious to a huge portion of the post-Soviet population, but one rarely sees it expressed in English.

Anonymous said...

The neocons are supporting West Ukrainian nationalists against East Ukrainians and Putin because Ukrainian nationalism is weaker than Russian nationalism.

From both a national interest perspective and and basic decency standpiont an independent Ukraine aligned with the panty waists in the EU is preferable to Vlad's authoritarianism.

Anonymous said...

RE: the Jews and the Khmelnytsky Uprising:

Most Jewish Ukrainian communities were devastated by the uprising and ensuing massacres, though occasionally a Jewish population was spared, notably after the sack of the town of Brody (the population of which was 70% Jewish). The Jews of Brody were judged and "deemed as not engaged in maltreatment of the Ruthenians" and were instead required to pay a tribute in "textiles and furs".[12]
The uprising also led to a decree on July 3, 1661, at the Council of Vilna in which Jewish elders banned merrymaking, including the setting of limitations on wedding celebrations, public drinking, fire dances, masquerades and Jewish comic entertainers.[13] Stories about massacre victims who had been buried alive, cut to pieces or forced to kill one another spread throughout Europe and beyond. These stories filled many with despair, and resulted in a revival of the ideas of Isaac Luria, and the identification of Sabbatai Zevi as the Messiah.[14]
The entire Jewish population of the Commonwealth in that period (1618–1717) has been estimated to have been about 200,000.[15] Most Jews lived outside Ukraine in the territories unaffected by the uprising, as the Jewish population of Ukraine of that period is estimated at about 50,000.[16]
The accounts of contemporaneous Jewish chroniclers of the events tended to emphasize large casualty figures, but they have been re-evaluated downwards at the end the 20th century, when modern historiographic methods, particularly from the realm of historical demography, became more widely adopted.[9] According to Orest Subtelny:
Weinryb cites the calculations of S. Ettinger indicating that about 50,000 Jews lived in the area where the uprising occurred. See B. Weinryb, "The Hebrew Chronicles on Bohdan Khmelnytsky and the Cossack-Polish War", Harvard Ukrainian Studies 1 (1977): 153-77. While many of them were killed, Jewish losses did not reach the hair-raising figures that are often associated with the uprising. In the words of Weinryb ("The Jews of Poland", 193-4), "The fragmentary information of the period—and to a great extent information from subsequent years, including reports of recovery—clearly indicate that the catastrophe may have not been as great as has been assumed."[17]
Early 20th-century estimates of Jewish deaths were based on the accounts of the Jewish chroniclers of the time, and tended to be high, ranging from 100,000 to 500,000 or more; in 1916 Simon Dubnow stated:
The losses inflicted on the Jews of Poland during the fatal decade 1648-1658 were appalling. In the reports of the chroniclers, the number of Jewish victims varies between one hundred thousand and five hundred thousand. But even if we accept the lower figure, the number of victims still remains colossal, even exceeding the catastrophes of the Crusades and the Black Death in Western Europe. Some seven hundred Jewish communities in Poland had suffered massacre and pillage. In the Ukrainian cities situated on the left banks of the Dnieper, the region populated by Cossacks... the Jewish communities had disappeared almost completely. In the localities on the right shore of the Dneiper or in the Polish part of the Ukraine as well as those of Volhynia and Podolia, wherever Cossacks had made their appearance, only about one tenth of the Jewish population survived.[18]
From the 1960s to the 1980s historians still considered 100,000 a reasonable estimate of the Jews killed and, according to Edward Flannery, many considered it "a minimum".[19] Max Dimont in Jews, God, and History, first published in 1962, writes "Perhaps as many as 100,000 Jews perished in the decade of this revolution."(WIKIPEDIA)

Anonymous said...

"Moreover, Polish and Ukrainian languages are almost mutually comprehensible, more so than Polish and Russian. Such historical tidbits should make the active engagement of Radek Sikorski, Poland's foreign minister, in the Ukrainian crisis easier to understand

As a Pole, I have been following Sikorski for some time and I have come to the conclusion that this guy is a rat bastard. He is just like any other sociopath western politician waiting to sell out for the right price.

One thing I would like to point out, is that the politicians who currently are in power in many eastern European countries are really just trying to show off and earn their credentials to move their career up to the big leagues, the EU commission and UN(LOL, thats the mentality of EE politicians).

Sikorski is not out there "commanding and leading" as the Polish media has been gloriously narrating or because he cares about Poland or Ukraine. He is like any other narcissistic, sociopath politician, he is out for himself. He along with the other Polish political clowns have been doing everything they can to implement the modern and decadent liberal ideals, everywhere and anywhere.

But, before the clowns in the EU let Sikorski or others in, such as the current premier of Poland, Donald Tusk into their little club. They have to prove to the EU puppet masters that they are part of the globalist elite team. Implementing anti-white policies, anti-nationalistic policies, anti-patriotic policies, anti-Polish policies, and attacking Christians and traditionalists.

Sikorski's participation in Ukraine is just another line on the CV he will take to the EU commission when some position opens up.

Anonymous said...

RE: Jews and the Khmelnytsky Uprising:

From the 1960s to the 1980s historians still considered 100,000 a reasonable estimate of the Jews killed and, according to Edward Flannery, many considered it "a minimum".[19] Max Dimont in Jews, God, and History, first published in 1962, writes "Perhaps as many as 100,000 Jews perished in the decade of this revolution." [20] Edward Flannery, writing in The Anguish of the Jews: Twenty-Three Centuries of Antisemitism, first published in 1965, also gives figures of 100,000 to 500,000, stating "Many historians consider the second figure exaggerated and the first a minimum".[19] Martin Gilbert in his Jewish History Atlas published in 1976 states "Over 100,000 Jews were killed; many more were tortured or ill-treated, others fled..."[21] Many other sources of the time give similar figures.[22]
Although many modern sources still give estimates of Jews killed in the uprising at 100,000[23] or more,[24] others put the numbers killed at between 40,000 and 100,000,[25] and recent academic studies have argued fatalities were even lower.
A 2003 study by Israeli demographer Shaul Stampfer of Hebrew University dedicated solely to the issue of Jewish casualties in the uprising concludes that 18,000-20,000 Jews were killed out of a total population of 40,000.[26] Paul Robert Magocsi states that Jewish chroniclers of the 17th century "provide invariably inflated figures with respect to the loss of life among the Jewish population of Ukraine. The numbers range from 60,000-80,000 (Nathan Hannover) to 100,000 (Sabbatai Cohen), but that "[t]he Israeli scholars Shmuel Ettinger and Bernard D. Weinryb speak instead of the 'annihilation of tens of thousands of Jewish lives', and the Ukrainian-American historian Jarowlaw Pelenski narrows the number of Jewish deaths to between 6,000 and 14,000".[27] Orest Subtelny concludes:
Between 1648 and 1656, tens of thousands of Jews—given the lack of reliable data, it is impossible to establish more accurate figures—were killed by the rebels, and to this day the Khmelnytsky uprising is considered by Jews to be one of the most traumatic events in their history.(WIKIPEDIA)

Anonymous said...

RE:Poles and the Khmelnytsky Uprising:

Poles were targeted by Cossacks as much as Jews; there were also many more Poles in the Commonwealth—and in Ukraine—than Jews, therefore Polish casualties were also very high.
The purported eyewitness accounts of the siege of Florianów describes a massacre in which there were only two survivors out of the total population of "40,000". While the annihilation of the town is well documented, the population of Florianow at the time was no more than 4,000.(WIKIPEDIA)

Anonymous said...

RE: Poles and the Uprising:

The Batih massacre (Polish: Rzeź polskich jeńców pod Batohem) also known as the Sarmatian Katyń[1] was a mass execution of Polish capitives carried out by Cossacks and Tatars on the order of Bohdan Khmelnytsky after the Battle of Batih on 3–4 June 1652.[2]
Around 3,500[3]-8,000[4] Polish elite soldiers and officers have been massacred. The number of survivors of the pogrom is estimated to be around 1500-2000.[5]
Among the most notable victims were: Crown Great Quartermaster Samuel Kalinowski the son of Hetman Marcin Kalinowski, General of the Artillery Zygmunt Przyjemski, Castelan of Czernihów Jan Odrzywolski and magnate Marek Sobieski, brother of later King Jan III Sobieski.(WIKIPEDIA)

Anonymous said...

RE: Ukrainians in the Uprising:

While Ukrainian peasants and Cossacks were in many cases the perpetrators of massacres of Polish szlachta members and their collaborators, they also suffered horrendous loss of life resulting from Polish reprisals, Tatar raids, famine, plague and general destruction due to war. At the initial stages of the uprising, armies of the magnate Jarema Wisniowiecki, on their retreat westward, inflicted terrible retribution on the civilian population, leaving behind them a trail of burned towns and villages.[28] In addition, Khmelnytsky's Tatar allies often continued their raids against the civilian population, in spite of protests from the Cossacks. After the Cossacks' alliance with Tsardom of Russia was enacted, the Tatar raids became unrestrained; coupled with the onset of famine, they led to a virtual depopulation of whole areas of the country. The extent of the tragedy can be exemplified by a report of a Polish officer of the time, describing the devastation:
I estimate that the number of infants alone who were found dead along the roads and in the castles reached 10,000. I ordered them to be buried in the fields and one grave alone contained over 270 bodies... All the infants were less than a year old since the older ones were driven off into captivity. The surviving peasants wander about in groups, bewailing their misfortune.(WIKIPEDIA)

Hunsdon said...

jody said: for a lot men, it's exciting and satisfying to be able to stomp the hell out other people once in a while, especially the authorities.

Hunsdon said: A former Marine, Jeff Cooper, once posed the philosophical question "Why do men fight?" and awarded first prize to the answer, "Because it's fun."

Hunsdon said...

David said: The more closely something can be associated specifically with light-skinned people, the "darker" it is said to be.

Hunsdon said: Dark Enlightenment helps the meme.

Anonymous said...

Mathew White gives the following figures:

Poland, The Deluge (1648-67)
Richard C. Frucht, ed., Eastern Europe: an introduction to the people, lands, and culture, Volume 1 (ABC-CLIO, 2005) p. 14, “After the wars of the mid-seventeenth century, the [Polish-Lithuanian] Commonwealth was exhausted. Its population had fallen from 10 million in 1648 to 6 million in 1668.”
Dnieper Cossack Rebellion under Chmielnicki (1648-54):

(http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm#Po1648)

Anonymous said...

Luke Lea sayz: having a significant representation among the managerial class justifies being subject to mass murder.


He didn't actually say that. He did point out that Jews were well represented in the oppressor class in the Ukraine and Poland for many centuries, and that this flies in the face of the version of history Jews like to tell themselves in which they are always the oppressed underdogs.

You may not like to hear this but it does not cease to be true on that account.

Gubbler of the Society of Reformed Chechenistics said...

Are we back to the world before WWI?

The aristocratic world?

WWI messed up the aristocratic order. Fall of kings and traditional elites. Communism in Russia. After-effects of WWI led to depression in Germany that led to Nazism. America couldn't lift the global depression and fell into it itself. So, anti-elitism became the order of the day. Communism. New Deal.
Though Fascism and Nazism were hierarchical, they were also populist and had no use for traditional elites. Old elites of Asia faded under weight of social change, and revolution.

WWII and its aftermath led to rise of the vast middle class funded in large part by hefty taxes on the rich. China fell under communism. Russia stood for worldwide revolution, and Third World leaders spoke of equality. New Deal policies lasted and expanded in the US under LBJ and Nixon.
So, it seemed like the world was moving toward greater equality. The idea of aristocratic rule that still dominated much of Europe and the world prior to WWI was smashed forever... or it seemed.

But with triumph of free market ideology, fall of communism, the rise of New Democrats and New Labour, the post-communist order in China, market liberalization in India, and etc. we are seeing the rise of neo-aristocrats all over. Russia now has superrich, China now has superrich, US is filled with superrich, UK is filled with superrich, India has superrich, Mexico has rise of superrich, and etc. To be sure, most of this wealth is built on enterprise than on hereditary stuff, but the rise of the shameless superrich and the rising wealth gap is truly astounding. Also, the superrich surely have connections of family, tribe, and etc across political and economic lines. It's almost like the days before WWI.

Maybe this is the natural order of things. The egalitarian or populist tide that shook the world following WWI--in the form of communism, fascism, new deal, social democracy, and etc--were really a fluke of history. They were drastic measures to deal with massive crises that resulted from WWI and its aftermath.

But with the long peace since WWII--Cold War didn't lead to major warfare--, it's like the aristocratic forces gradually regrouped and gained the power.

When the rich messed up the economy in the 30s, FDR took hard measures against them. In 2009, Obama bailed out the bankers who just got richer. How things have changed.

China went through communist hell cuz of imperialism, war, and etc that brought commies to power. But in the end, China is going back to the old way of social hierarchy and huge divides. Russia too.

One wonders how the world would have been if it had avoided WWI--which means avoiding WWII as well. Maybe it would have been one long continuous expansion of aristocratic powers, hereditary or monetary or political.

Anonymous said...

"A one-time Russian girlfriend of mine reported that in Russia itself it is a truism that a) the women in neighboring Ukraine are hott beyond belief but b) Ukrainian men are usually butt-ugly, so it all evens out."

This is true of the Irish. Beautiful women but brutish guys. Irish guys are not ugly but they are unpleasant and bullying. They are thugly, like the street louts who bump into Tom Cruise in EYES WIDE SHUT.

Maybe to protect the good-looking gals, the Irish guys had to be arseholes.

Anonymous said...

"The neocons' ilk has a long history of living surrounded by enemies and using subterfuge and intrigue. They are not as uncomfortable with being in alliances with or using people who hate them as we would be. Neocons probably see Galician nationalists like they see Evangelical Protestants in America. Sure, they may be anti-Semitic, but they are also unsophisticated types who are likely to be particularly bad at political maneuvering and keeping their own interests straight in the face of a verbally facile media barrage."

The amazing thing is, Putin is good at political maneuvering and PR too. That gives the good guys a lot of hope. Not just in Russia and other post-Soviet countries, but world-wide.

Anonymous said...

"The amazing thing is, Putin is good at political maneuvering and PR too. That gives the good guys a lot of hope. Not just in Russia and other post-Soviet countries, but world-wide."

No good guys here. Personally, the breakup of Ukraine would be a good thing. It should never have been a nation.

Anonymous said...

"Its population had fallen from 10 million in 1648 to 6 million in 1668.”

A lot of that was loss of territory to Russia. Much of what is now called the Ukraine revolted against Poland and joined Russia in 1654.

In 1954 Khruschev celebrated the 300th anniversary of that event by giving the Crimean peninsula to the Ukraine. Thank you choosing us and for sticking with us for all those years, here's something nice. At the time this was largely symbolic. The entire country was ruled from Moscow anyway. But when the USSR broke up, the Crimea, whose population is overwhelmingly Russian, ended up in a foreign country.

Anonymous said...

"He didn't actually say that. He did point out that Jews were well represented in the oppressor class in the Ukraine and Poland for many centuries, and that this flies in the face of the version of history Jews like to tell themselves in which they are always the oppressed underdogs.

You may not like to hear this but it does not cease to be true on that account."

The idea that Jews were always the oppressed underclass is false, obviously. But again, Jews are not the only people to have a sanitized version of their own history--FFS, look at the Galicians, whose two greatest heroes are the murderers Bandera and Khmelnitsky, yet see themselves only as the victims of history. Or the Russians, for whom emphasis on the 27 million dead in the Great Patriotic War is a fact of daily life. Basically every nation, other than the US and Western Europe, overemphasizes its victimhood and downplays its moments on top.

But look, when you come up with reasons for why mass slaughter is understandable, but don't actually say that it is ok, don't be surprised when it is understood your are justifying the slaughter.

Anonymous said...

"Chicks dig Right Sector"

Or as PJ O'Rourke said 'No woman has ever had a fantasy about being tied to a bed and ravished by someone dressed as a liberal.'

Anonymous said...

You've got remember that the current situation is the long delayed reaction from Gorbachev's reign of error and madness in which the USSR basically catastrophically imploded

And thank God for that. The end of the Soviet Empire was a great and good thing for human freedom.

Svigor said...

Steve, you laugh at the elderly readers of the new york review of books who see anti semetism behind every corner. But at the same you post comments from the exterminationist anti semites. I recall you posting a comment from someone who blamed the holdomer on the jewish people when of course stalin was Georgian

Jews have plenty of blood on their hands. It's a common pattern in European history: one people oppresses another, and the Jews are often there to help the former, and sometimes to run the show. Obviously the commies in Russia are the salient example, but others abound (oppressors in middle 20th century Hungary, pre-national Ukraine, post-communist Ukraine, in Poland, etc., etc., etc.). Shahak called them the bailiffs of medieval history.

When the Polish nobility colonized the Ukraine they imported their Ashkenazi help-mates to manage their feudal estates under the so-called arenda system. These Ashkenazis were essentially overseers of a semi-enslaved peasantry in the service of a largely absentee land-owning elite, as was often the case throughout Poland.

I.e., bailiffs. Thanks Luke, it's much better to have a non-"ANTI-SEMITE!!!" come in and tell the tale.

You're right that we should examine the Khmelnystsky rebellion in context. However, even though it may not have started out as a pogrom, it certainly turned into a massive one. Were all Ukrainian Jews in the 17th century estate managers for absentee Polish landlords? If not, why did those others deserve to die at the hands of the Cossacks? If you think that all Jews should suffer collectively for the sins of a few Jews, why shouldn't the same be visited on you, for example with regard to slavery in the American South?

Jewish bailiffs were employed precisely because they had no sympathy for their ethnic lessers, the Slavs, and didn't worry overmuch about "all Ukrainians," "all Ukrainians suffering collectively," etc. And neither did their camp followers.

But at the same you post comments from the exterminationist anti semites.

That's Jewish for "goys who think whites have the right to have for themselves what Jews have for themselves in Israel."

No reasonable person would blame all Jews collectively, even those who opposed the Bolsheviks at the time and especially not those who weren't even born at the time for what the Bolsheviks did to the non-Jews who lived in the old Pale of Settlement.

Of course not. But when you move in as an ethnic group, to another ethnic group's territory, and in the aggregate, your ethnic economic endeavor is that of bailiff, well, you rolls the dice and you takes your chances. And if you ignore the situation with the inferior Slavs by stuffing your nose in a book, well, you rolls the dice and you takes your chances.

I don't hear Jews doing much crying for innocent non-Jewish whites who get caught up. Ok, I don't hear any.

Luke Lea sayz: having a significant representation among the managerial class justifies being subject to mass murder.

Translation: "reciprocity is ANTI-SEMITISM!!!"

If Jews are just another people, and not the eternal victim/good guys, well...ANTI-SEMITISM.

Anonymous said...

"Translation: "reciprocity is ANTI-SEMITISM!!!"

BS. The Poles, and certainly the Jews, did not slaughter innocent Ukrainian peasants in the same way Ukrainians slaughtered Poles and Jews either in the Khmelnitsky uprisings or in the Bandera massacres. You're welcome to show otherwise.

On the other hand, if you want to argue that economically disadvantaged groups get to slaughter their economic betters, well, if you become the victim of a World Star Hip Hop film director, I won't have much sympathy for you.

Anonymous said...

"Hunsdon said: A former Marine, Jeff Cooper, once posed the philosophical question "Why do men fight?" and awarded first prize to the answer, "Because it's fun."

It's also why men argue about politics online. Opinions are almost never changed during arguments. Some lurkers might change their minds, but that's secondary. I think most commenters argue because it's fun.

Hunsdon said...

This has been a pretty damn good comment thread, on the whole.

Anonymous said...

Ukrainians pulling down statues of Lenin. They can't be all bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLZ7pWtyLCY&feature=youtu.be

Anonymous said...

"But look, when you come up with reasons for why mass slaughter is understandable, but don't actually say that it is ok, don't be surprised when it is understood your are justifying the slaughter."

Aren't all Jewish holy festivals like that?

MQ said...

their descendants were (and remain) almost entirely ignorant of their own secular history, the literate elite of the time being wholly consumed with Torah study and living in small communities that enjoyed special privileges and legal immunities and, what is more, never learned to speak or understand the Polish (or Ukrainian) languages over the centuries.

LOL -- so my grandmother, who grew up in pre-war Poland, spoke fluent Polish (as well as Yiddish and some Russian), remembered eating dirt to fill her stomach as a kid, and her family started sending her out on the road to sell trinkets starting at eight years old. I guess she missed out on those sweet, sweet special privileges Jews had in Poland! Bad luck, that. Of course, an alternative would be that you're yet another of the ignorant anti-semites who congregate around this site and make shit up.

The jewish affiliations of Marx, Trotsky, Lenin, Yagoda, Kaganovich and the majority of early bolsheviks is utterly irrelevant.

Lenin was seven-eighths Christian, and Stalin was so Christian he even attended a seminary in his youth. Not to mention all the other prominent Christians in the
Stalinist leadership, like Yezhov, Beria, Molotov, etc. The connection between Christianity and Stalinist terror is clear!

Anonymous said...

"If you think that all Jews should suffer collectively for the sins of a few Jews, why shouldn't the same be visited on you, for example with regard to slavery in the American South?"

You're projecting again: what's that word, Amalek?


"Isabella didn't kick Jews out of Spain because she hated their religion. She kicked them out because they sided with the Muslims."

It also ended the massive trade in European slaves to the Muslim world.

Although that led to the slave merchants moving to Portugal and starting the Atlantic slave trade instead so not that great for Africans.

HIGHLAND said...

And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,
for the ashes of his fathers,
and the temples of his Gods?

Anonymous said...

@ MQ -

Lukelea is actually correct about privileges granted to the Polish Jewish communities by the Polish monarchs. They had a degree of autonomy and self-governance greater than any other Jewish communities in Europe. However, this situation only lated until around the time of the partitions in the late 18th century, so your grandmother wouldn't have experienced it. On the other hand, Polish towns had the privilegium de non tolerandis Iudaeis that allowed them to exclude Jews completely. The combined effect of communal autonomy, pre-haskalah religious obscurantism/lack of interest in outside culture, and Polish gentile anti-Semitism is that the Poles and Polish Jews lived apart and developed separate societies. My Polish Jewish ancestors, who were "ordinary" Orthodox when they emigrated to the U.S. 100 years ago, did not speak fluent Polish.

Anonymous said...

What really puzzles me about the Ukrainian situation is this:

Basically the Ukranians are fighting and dying in the name of the EU. If Ukraine is ever given EU membership, two things are guaranteed.
1/. Ukrainians - by the millions will abandon Ukraine forever and impose themselves on the UK, (for instance), they will destroy the labor market there and eventually aid in dispossessing the British out of their own nation.
2/. The EU will give the green light for millions of Somalis, Pakistanis, Nigerians, Bangladeshis, Indians, Ugandans , Congolese, Ghanians, Sri Lankans etc etc etc to move in on the now vacated Ukraine.

And these protesetors call themselves 'nationalists'.

Simon in London said...

Re Ukraine and EU - the EU is a Faustian pact for poor nations. The benefits in eg free money are obvious and immediate. The realisation that they have sold their soul comes much later.
I guess the best approach to the EU is bilateral agreements a la Switzerland, or just stay out entirely if there's too much risk of being sucked in. The vital thing is not to sign up to the Acquis Communataire; there's little point being like Norway and not joining but still committing to all the madness.

For Ukraine, can a policy of neutrality between Russia and US/EU work, or is the US too aggressive in insisting all nations submit to the New World Order? If the US can't be reasoned with or bargained with then I guess cleaving close to nuclear-armed Russia is the least bad option.

Anonymous said...

I think that most of the Ukrainian women like all the guys out there risking their lives, who were by no means all associated with fringe far right groups.

I doubt the music teacher and two lawyers highlighted in this article were part of the "Right Sector" or similar groups.

I'd hate to see all the men who risked their lives lumped in with groups who are linked to groups who helped the Nazis kill people in WWII.

5371 said...

You think no-one who plays the violin or is a lawyer could be a member of "fringe far right groups"?
Reinhard Heydrich and Hans Frank say hi!

Dan said...

With Vietnam, the rioting got bad because of conscription. A lot of this stuff in the old Russian Empire and Pale is about avoid the obligations of citizenship and preserving special priveledges.

I note the Polish/Jewish accommodation in this. As those exemptions and privileges were done away with and the laws universalized you saw mass out migration of Jewish populations. Getting people to lift a finger is hard fugging work if you are the Prince.

Dan said...

The Portuguese expelled the slavers too. The slavers set up their shops in Sao Tome and started the massive use of black slaves. This business then jumped a cross to Recife (incidentally the first synagogue in the new world).

who ran the slave trade?

Survivor said...

"If you think that all Jews should suffer collectively for the sins of a few Jews, why shouldn't the same be visited on you, for example with regard to slavery in the American South?"

There you are folks. Think about your commute, your tax slave status, your blighted cities, the public schools you bleed yourself white to avoid, think about the 30,000 interracial rapes a year, think about the month formerly known as February, think about innocent young ladies like Megan Boken or men persecuted for protecting themselves like George Zimmerman. NOW, think about who set up the NAACP and the SPLC and what their real agenda is.

Anonymous said...

"I'd hate to see all the men who risked their lives lumped in with groups who are linked to groups who helped the Nazis kill people in WWII."

I'd hate to see them lumped in with the neocons who are the successors of the Bolsheviks who killed millions of people leading to WWII.

.

"You think no-one who plays the violin or is a lawyer could be a member of "fringe far right groups"? Reinhard Heydrich and Hans Frank say hi!"

I expect lots of Bolshevik concentration camp commanders were artistic too.

Anonymous said...

Dan:"The Portuguese expelled the slavers too. The slavers set up their shops in Sao Tome and started the massive use of black slaves. This business then jumped a cross to Recife (incidentally the first synagogue in the new world).

who ran the slave trade?"

Depends on the period. For example, The Treaty of Utrecht (1713) gave England the Asiento, which helped to make English slaver traders a massive player in the 18th century slave trade.

Anonymous said...

"The Portuguese expelled the slavers too. The slavers set up their shops in Sao Tome and started the massive use of black slaves. This business then jumped a cross to Recife (incidentally the first synagogue in the new world).

who ran the slave trade?


Interesting, do you have sources for further research?

gentilla said...

"Lenin was seven-eighths Christian, and Stalin was so Christian he even attended a seminary in his youth. Not to mention all the other prominent Christians in the
Stalinist leadership, like Yezhov, Beria, Molotov, etc. The connection between Christianity and Stalinist terror is clear!:

Good point. However many were involved (and they had no sentimental or historic allegiance to czar or church) their minority status made it evident that no Marxist progress could have been made had it not been full of gentiles as well. Same with any other questionable endeavor blamed on Jews such as the 16th & 17th c. slave trade. Yes, there were Jews disproportionately involved, but nobody was holding a gun to the heads of the good Christians, forcing them to comply. Indeed, they fully agreed eventually, because greed knows no religion, and barely any ethnicity. This despite gentiles being the majority by far, with far more sense of moral certitude than they have nowadays. They have no one to blame but themselves.

moose said...

" Anonymous said...
"Chicks dig Right Sector"

Or as PJ O'Rourke said 'No woman has ever had a fantasy about being tied to a bed and ravished by someone dressed as a liberal.'

2/22/14, 5:11 PM"

Had to laugh at that one, I guess because fantasies like that seem absurd and cartoonish to me.
But I once knew a Haitian girl in the 80s, v. nice, v. attractive mulatto type whose goal was to marry a white guy of French or Italian background. Mixed Haitians did not (don't know about now) identify with blacks too much, especially American ones. She watched a documentary on Mussolini one night and the next morning wondered why she couldn't meet a man like that. Didn't make sense to me, because she was a very nice person and really had no idea what she was wishing for. God save us from what we wish for.

Anonymous said...

" one-time Russian girlfriend of mine reported that in Russia itself it is a truism that a) the women in neighboring Ukraine are hott beyond belief but b) Ukrainian men are usually butt-ugly, so it all evens out."

I know people who said the opposite about Serbians. Men hot, women not so much. I saw too many contradictory examples. Maybe it depends on context.

Anonymous said...

"is is true of the Irish. Beautiful women but brutish guys. Irish guys are not ugly but they are unpleasant and bullying. They are thugly, like the street louts who bump into Tom Cruise in EYES WIDE SHUT.

Maybe to protect the good-looking gals, the Irish guys had to be arseholes."

That's a nice change of pace. Usually they tend to go on about how plain Irish women are--or else they are at extremes, very pretty or very ugly. Personally I think they have the same bell curve of looks as any other north-west European type, but they have a distinctive look as do most nationalities. Some like the distinctive look, some don't. An Irish friend of mine thought most of the charm and blarney among the Irish was in the men. But then her mother was psycho and the dad was just a zero.

Anonymous said...

who ran the slave trade?

good question

Anonymous said...

"I'd hate to see all the men who risked their lives lumped in with groups who are linked to groups who helped the Nazis kill people in WWII."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate

Anonymous said...

The idea that Jews were always the oppressed underclass is false, obviously.


What do you mean, "obviously"?
Immense numbers of highly educated people (not all of them Jews by any means) are simply unaware of what you now say is "obvious". I notice you can't bring yourself to admit that Jews have frequently been in the oppressive over-class.


But again, Jews are not the only people to have a sanitized version of their own history


Yes, they pretty much are. They get away with it because, as we see here, anyone who points out that "Jewish history" is a very selectively edited version of real history at best, and a fabrication at worst, gets called a "vicious anti-semite".


look, when you come up with reasons for why mass slaughter is understandable, but don't actually say that it is ok, don't be surprised when it is understood your are justifying the slaughter.


Look, you come across as somebody who is incredibly wound up about "slaughter" and "murder" whenever Jews die, and is incredibly indifferent to it otherwise. If Khmelnytsky had confined himself to killing non-Jews he would not even be a tiny blip in "Jewish history".

Anonymous said...

my grandmother, who grew up in pre-war Poland, spoke fluent Polish (as well as Yiddish and some Russian), remembered eating dirt to fill her stomach as a kid, and her family started sending her out on the road to sell trinkets starting at eight years old. I guess she missed out on those sweet, sweet special privileges Jews had in Poland!


Are you on a mission to single-handedly refute the theory that Jews possess higher-then-average intelligence?

It's a historical fact that at many times and places in Europe, Jews were a minority group favored by the ruling powers and enjoyed privileges above and beyond those of the average peasant.

It's a historical fact that the periods of oppression and persecution which Jews did indeed suffer were mostly a direct consequence of that elevated position. When you're closely affiliated with the ruling class and there's a successful revolution, guess what happens to you? Anyone? Bueller?

History is not refuted on the basis of some anecdotes your grandmother told you.

Luke Lea said...

For the record I do not think "that all Jews should suffer collectively for the sins of a few Jews"

Anonymous said...

NOW, think about who set up the NAACP and the SPLC and what their real agenda is.

OK, Survivor, the NAACP's first elected officer slate (1910) consisted of Moorfield Storey, William English Walling, John E. Milholland, Oswald Garrison Villard, Frances Blascoer and W.E.B. Du Bois. There was not one Jew among them. As for your tax slavery, the road to that began in 1913 with the foundation of the IRS during the presidency of Woodrow Wilson. What Western country's government has shrunk since that time? I wouldn't argue that the progressives, including the many Jews among them, have implemented oodles of bad policies with terrible consequences. But the non-Jewish contribution shouldn't be ignored. Seriously, how can you forget people like Judge Arthur Garrity, without whom there might have been no busing in Boston?

I wasn't wishing collective suffering on any group - I don't believe in it. What I wrote was a rhetorical question for lukelea, who has since clarified his position on the issue.

Anonymous said...

***"OK, Survivor, the NAACP's first elected officer slate (1910) consisted of Moorfield Storey, William English Walling, John E. Milholland, Oswald Garrison Villard, Frances Blascoer and W.E.B. Du Bois. There was not one Jew among them."***

Wow, talk about selective citation. "Set up" =/= "initial member of the board".

From the Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_the_Advancement_of_Colored_People

....Because hotels in the U.S. were segregated, the men convened in Canada at the Erie Beach Hotel[9] on the Canadian side of the Niagara River in Fort Erie, Ontario. As a result, the group came to be known as the Niagara Movement. A year later, three whites joined the group: journalist William E. Walling, social worker Mary White Ovington, and social worker Henry Moskowitz, then Associate Leader of the New York Society for Ethical Culture. They met in 1906 at Harpers Ferry, West Virginia, and in 1907 in Boston, Massachusetts.[10]....

....The NAACP was founded on February 12, 1909 by a diverse group composed of W. E. B. Du Bois, Ida B. Wells, Archibald Grimké, Henry Moskowitz, Mary White Ovington, Oswald Garrison Villard, William English Walling (the last son of a former slave-holding family),[12][13] Florence Kelley, a social reformer and friend of Du Bois,[14] and Charles Edward Russell, a renowned muckraker and close friend of Walling who helped plan the NAACP and served as acting chairman of the National Negro Committee (1909), a forerunner to the NAACP.[15]....

....The conference resulted in a more influential and diverse organization, where the leadership was predominantly white and heavily Jewish American. In fact, at its founding, the NAACP had only one African American on its executive board, Du Bois himself. It did not elect a black president until 1975, although executive directors had been African American. The Jewish community contributed greatly to the NAACP's founding and continued financing. Jewish historian Howard Sachar writes in his book A History of Jews in America of how, "In 1914, Professor Emeritus Joel Spingarn of Columbia University became chairman of the NAACP and recruited for its board such Jewish leaders as Jacob Schiff, Jacob Billikopf, and Rabbi Stephen Wise."[17] Early Jewish-American co-founders included Julius Rosenwald, Lillian Wald, Rabbi Emil G. Hirsch and Wise.....

Jews put up non-Jewish front men all the time to disguise their numbers and influence. Or they used to; they have gotten less shy about flaunting their power of late. No one is fooled by your citation of the founding board members. The more important people are those in the background, organizing behind the scenes, and providing the financing. Even the Wiki admits who that was.

Anonymous said...

"Depends on the period. For example, The Treaty of Utrecht (1713) gave England the Asiento, which helped to make English slaver traders a massive player in the 18th century slave trade."

A lot of the time when you read about "Dutch" or "Portuguese" or "English" slave traders they actually all turn out to be the descendants of Sephardic Jews who ran the White slave trade from Moorish Spain who left after the the reconquista and started the Atlantic slave trade instead.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous:"A lot of the time when you read about "Dutch" or "Portuguese" or "English" slave traders they actually all turn out to be the descendants of Sephardic Jews who ran the White slave trade from Moorish Spain who left after the the reconquista and started the Atlantic slave trade instead."

I suggest that you look into the background of the Englishmen who were involved in the 18th century
Atlantic Slave Trade. Very few were Jews.