April 29, 2013

Slate: "Why Do So Many Moms Feel Sorry for Dzhokhar? Why Are Teen Girls in Love With Him?"

I hadn't seen this when I wrote my upcoming parody that should appear in VDARE soon, but I could sense it, so this phenomenon makes up one of my piece's major joke-lines.

From Slate:
Why All This Maternal Sympathy for Dzhokhar?
By Hanna Rosin | Posted Monday, April 29, 2013,

It’s not all that surprising that the suspected Boston bombers, particularly younger brother Dzhokhar, have already inspired passionate crushes in girls. (Here is a Tumblr called Free Jahar, as his would-be girlfriends call him, anchored by a photo of him kicking back in his Timberlands.) As Rachel Monroe wrote last year in her excellent essay “The Killer Crush,” extravagant murderers like James Holmes (the Aurora, Colo., shooter) and the Columbine boys tend to bring on alarming fevers of admiration from teenagers, and maybe some of them grow up to be the women who marry the guys in prison. (Hybristophilia is the technical term for getting turned on by high-profile criminals.) 
The fan-girl fantasies involve an injured Dzhokhar showing up at your house and lots of Florence Nightingale–like ministrations (before they get porny, of course). You can almost imagine them as one of the "~♥~ Let me take care of you ~♥~" series of videos where women with soothing voices bring out the warm cloths. Here is a scene from one posted on the “Free Jahar” site: 
[Dzhokhar] sounded much more terrified than you could have possibly been. “Are you okay?” You begged him to tell you he was fine, nobody really knew. “I’m hit, in the leg, but I- wait what? You’re asking if I’m okay?” He was surprised, but calmer now. “I know you didn’t do it, and even if you did, I know you aren’t harmful.” He sighed with your words, he felt safe for the first time since he saw his face on the television. 
But what stands out in the ardor for Dzhokhar is a deep maternal strain. Given what the man is accused of doing—killing an 8-year-old, among others, and helping to set off bombs that were loaded to maim—how do you explain that? In the past week and a half I have not been to a school pickup, birthday, book party, or dinner where one of my mom friends has not said some version of “I feel sorry for that poor kid.” This group includes mothers of infants and grandmothers and generally pretty reasonable intelligent types, including one who is an expert on Middle Eastern extremist groups. 
Many of them mention that ubiquitous photo of Dzhokhar with his hair tousled and too few hairs on his chin to shave. Some bring up the prom photo with the red carnation or the goofy video of him wrestling with his friends.* Some mention the “I love you, bro” tweets from his many friends. Some just seem anguished by the vision of that “poor kid” alone in the boat by himself, bleeding for all those hours. All of this sympathy stems of course from the storyline that coalesced early: a hapless genial pothead being coerced into killing by his sadistic older brother. As with such storylines, all evidence to the contrary gets suppressed. 

And Rosin brings up, naively, another one of my upcoming essay's joke themes:
(Older brother Tamerlan’s inability to continue to box in the top national competition because he wasn’t a citizen after a rule change barring legal residents—in other words, to become more American—seems to have narrowed his options and radicalized him, for example.)

108 comments:

peterike said...

But what stands out in the ardor for Dzhokhar is a deep maternal strain. Given what the man is accused of doing—killing an 8-year-old, among others, and helping to set off bombs that were loaded to maim—how do you explain that?

Women are idiots. Next question.

MC said...

Pauline Kael alert:

"In the past week and a half I have not been to a school pickup, birthday, book party, or dinner where one of my mom friends has not said some version of “I feel sorry for that poor kid.”"

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am certain that not one person I know at any party would ever say that. And I live about as far from Boston as you can get.

Dark is light, and light is dark.

Anonymous said...

It must be because he looks such a dominant alpha badass..oh wait...it must be cos he looks so young, soft and girly.

Ben Stein said...

Anyone? Anyone? Roissy? Roissy? Roissy?

Steve Sailer said...

Roissy was in my parody until he got cut for lack of space at the last moment.

Maya said...

Jesus, there is no interesting explanation, evolutionary or otherwise. These are the idiots. They think, say, do feel idiotic things. Perspective is difficult for them. Yes, there is always a lot of them in any large population. No, they are not the majority and they don't represent the majority.

P.S. Isn't Jahar the bad guy from the Disney movie about Alladin?

P.P.S. I don't know anybody who feels sorry for the little shit. However, we are undecided whether the idea of his "angelic" looks being a treat sent by Allah to his potential future prison mates is funny, or if prison rape is such a disgusting failure of a civilized society that it's never funny. Personally, I lean against the Joker being served up as dessert for the gang bangers when he's feeling up to it. But I don't feel that way for HIS sake.

Anonymous said...

Boston Irish girls are sports fans and cop groupies. You'd never get any sympathy out of them for the Bomb Brothers.

Anonymous said...

Roissy should get mentioned in your parody. And the widow of the bomber who converted to Islam with the hijab, should get a mention too. Middle class secular American girl to Islamic hijab with a baby? Totally.

Steve Sailer said...

"And the widow of the bomber who converted to Islam with the hijab, should get a mention too."

I got somebody better than that.

DYork said...

peterike said...

Women are idiots. Next question.


And what are men? Murders? Terrorists? Sexually inadequate woman haters who make bigoted generalizations about groups from extreme examples?

Dutch Boy said...

It's just to bring balance to the world - I'm sure most (non-Muslim) men would like to bayonet the s.o.b.!

DYork said...

Anonymous said...

It must be because he looks such a dominant alpha badass..oh wait...it must be cos he looks so young, soft and girly.

Ben Stein said...

Anyone? Anyone? Roissy? Roissy? Roissy?


Roissy and the online sex-nerds are the ones excited by the older brother. Their homo-erotic fantasy figure had come to life, sadly he's gone. Le sigh!

It's the chicks (a relative few) who like the soft, non-alpha, "beta male" weakling.

Anonymous said...

Some women just love bad.Best explained by Josh in Last Days of Disco.http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=oEUGmWlkJZk

Anonymous said...

The guys who flew B-29s came home heros. Why not Joker? It's not like only a tiny portion of humans are evil via idiocy.

Dennis Dale said...

I sure hope Ms Palmer makes an appearance.
"I'm Amanda F--king Palmer and I'm here to help!"
Maybe a suitable punishment includes in person recitations five times daily.

"...you don't know how to use the plastic forks in the mess hall..."
"What?"
"...you don't know how to respond to the hungry gaze of your shower-mates..."
"Leave me alone, infidel whore!"
"...you don't know how to memorize your inmate number..."
"She just keeps repeating nonsense! My mother mated with a scorpion!"
"...you don't know how to use the prison commissary system..."
"Call the ACLU!"
"You don't know the way to the Yard..."
"I seek refuge in Allah from this Satan!"
"You don't know the way to the Yard..."
"[in the fashion of Attica! Attica! Attica!] Guantanamo! Guantanamo! Guantanamo!"

candid_observer said...

FWIW, a friend of the family has a sister who was in a class with Young Tsarnaev at Cambridge Rindge and Latin. She reports that two of her friends had a crush on him (though not she).

So apparently he was breaking hearts even before he was stopping them.

hbd chick said...

"Women are idiots."

if women are idiots, it's because your fathers and grandfathers mated with idiotic women. do your sons and grandsons a favor and mate with some smart ones. (~_^)

Anonymous said...

"Women are idiots. Next question.

And what are men? Murders? Terrorists? Sexually inadequate woman haters who make bigoted generalizations about groups from extreme examples?"

women are mediocre?
Djoker is extreme, not those women. Generalizations about women are correct, not from djoker.

Anonymous said...

The guys who flew B-29s came home heros. Why not Joker? It's not like only a tiny portion of humans are evil via idiocy.

Interesting remark.

Anonymous said...

"It's the chicks (a relative few) who like the soft, non-alpha, "beta male" weakling."

Dejokar isn't beta, he's just young.

Betas don't bomb the Boston Marathon then go party the next day.

DR said...

"Women are idiots."

This is a stupid conclusion. Here's a simpler explanation: law of large numbers. The bomb brothers were in the very public spotlight for probably more than a billion people around the globe.

1000 girls having a crush on someone doesn't demonstrate a tendency in "all women," but a tendency in less than 2% of 1% of 1% (that wasn't a repeat, 2 * 10^-6) of women.

In contrast you could easily find Tumblrs with a lot more people dedicated to that fetish where people get turned on by people getting eaten by predators. That doesn't mean that all people get turned on by that. It just means that the Internet is a very big, very weird place. Anonymity brings out the deviants.

Anonymous said...

I really don't see why this is so shocking; sympathy for Dzokhar stems from the fact that he is young and attractive. Tamerlan was less attractive and hairy looking so he does not generate the nurturing response for those women. Though this phenomenon is more intense among women than men, I've noticed men drool over nice-looking female criminals too. One of the recent memes on reddit was "attractive convict." Lots of guys also talked about the hotness of Casey Anthony and Amanda Knox.

Also worth pointing out that the lack of female attention (other than his weirdo wife Russell) for Tamerlan refutes the Roissy/Whiskey "women prefer alpha male bad boys" hypothesis. Just take a look at Tumblr to see what actors teenage girls like- mostly weedy unthreatening guys with a sensitive, semi-effeminate appearance.

Anonymous said...

"do your sons and grandsons a favor and mate with some smart ones. (~_^)"

grandaughters? and the smart ones could do the favors for themselves if they had half the maternal instinct that djoker's mom does.

Anonymous said...

"peterike said...

Women are idiots. Next question.

And what are men? Murders? Terrorists? Sexually inadequate woman haters who make bigoted generalizations about groups from extreme examples?"

Have you ever read what Schopenhauer thought about women?

The short version: Women are the 2nd sex in every way. He would be appalled by feminism.

SMERSH said...

"Also worth pointing out that the lack of female attention (other than his weirdo wife Russell) for Tamerlan refutes the Roissy/Whiskey "women prefer alpha male bad boys" hypothesis. "

No it doesn't. Tamerlane was relatively average looking, so he's not going to get a lot of attention based on a still picture. He had to work his alpha charm in person. That charm was enough for him to get an attractive American woman to convert to Islam for him, wear full Muslim attire and work 70-80 hours per week for him, while he loafed about at home.

He also slapped her in 2009 and insulted her a lot, but she stayed with him.

Dejokar just has more appeal based on a still photograph because he is better looking.

David said...

We always hear criticism of men (and the murderers in this example are men) but no one nowadays takes women to task. That was traditionally left to other women, the smart, together, well-raised ones. But these good women who poured scorn on the skanks don't seem much in evidence these days. Like Whiskey wondering where the good Muslims are, I find myself wondering why ladies don't speak out any longer against sisters who give them a black eye. Either they're too busy or there just aren't any ladies now.

Anonymous said...

Chiming in to say my mother likewise feels sorry for him to an extent, and blames his brother to a degree as well.

Chicago said...

Has he gotten any marriage proposals yet? Scott Peterson had some already waiting for him the day he arrived at San Quentin. The true test will be whether or not they'd be willing to wear a burkha for him, just to prove their love.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2o8lYhJgzQ

What a movie.

Anonymous said...

Tamerlan doesn't get any fangirl love compared to Joker, because compared to Joker, Tamerlan is dead. People in general find the living more interesting than the dead.

Anonymous said...

A million here, a million there, and soon we're talking real calamity.

Calamnesty.

Anonymous said...

Inside every American mother is a Bomb Mom trying to get out.

Anonymous said...

Because he looks a lot cuter than Zimmerman.

He also looks 'Jewish', and our culture feels so much affection for guys who look like Bob Dylan.

can't live without 'em, unfortunately said...

Yes, women often appear to be idiots. Sure, there's probably some fine free-associated (i.e. HBD) theory vouched by a tenured NIH expert on The Discovery Channel which you could probably regurgitate on cue & thus win points in an Internet argument, but all that don't change Should Be into Is. Anyone not comatose has observed the many-splendored ways by which Female Logic drives astoundingly deranged behavior. Yet somehow the public has been deprived--no right & fitting hue/cry to be heard whenever the nearest schoolmarm opines that "men are idiots"...

Anonymous said...

I used to make fun of Whiskey.

Now I gotta admit, that man was right.

Women really do go for alphas with crazy levels of aggression.

Amazing.

I can't believe Whiskey's BS about women "HATE, HATE, HATE BETAS" and "nice white ladies want alpha minority immigrants" actually has a basis in reality.

Anonymous said...

mexican schoolgirls dream of romance with drug gangsters

"The show recorded in HD format tells the stories lived by women whom, whether by ambition or need to transform their world to meet the needs of the mobsters that surround them."

the show's a hit!

http://www.todotvnews.com/scripts/templates/estilo_nota.asp?nota=26562

Whiskey said...

It is real. I've seen it. I wish it weren't.

Tamerlan as noted above, got a 19 year old hottie to drop out, convert to Islam, have his kid, don a hijab, and ruh-roh, there's female DNA on on of the bombs. Besides she worked as noted 70 hours a week to take care of the family while they were on welfare. She doubtless paid for his trip to Dagestan, while he slapped her around.

This is situational. Also as noted above, other women would slut-name, shame, and prevent this sort of thing. Its a race to the bottom. Take the same photos, and have them be a facebook nerd, or web developer, or something else "icky" for women, involving abstract thinking, lots of math, and nothing to do with physical human beings, and he'd be repulsive. Dhokar is situationally Alpha, in that he killed people.

You dont' see women burn, yearn, and fantasize about decency, dutifulness, and so on. Dexter, Don Draper, Edward Cullen, etc. are not cuddly, "soft" and dutiful beta males. Nope, they're "bad."

Women freed from the need for a physical protector and personal provider give way to their urges. Just like the masses of men, they think with their genitals if given the least opportunity. Men would behave in different but equally bad ways if given the chance. Its just that no one wants 90% of all men.

A man who kills, and gets away with it, is dominant. James Holmes has his teenage girl fans, as does Dhokar, and others. Yeah its a bad part of Primate DNA, human nature. Most guys would like a harem sandwich. The destructiveness of a Bill Clinton, having one and getting away with it, is also bad (it erodes male trust which is predicated on Big Men in the West not abusing their position to snag other guys wives etc.)

But women are just out of control. No group of human beings (because we are innately primate and require strong social structures so we don't fling poo around) can or should be without strong social limits on behavior. Period. Women don't. Now. And predictably abuse it.

eah said...

All of those people should be shown morgue or pre-OP fotos of the victims.

DR said...

"You dont' see women burn, yearn, and fantasize about decency, dutifulness, and so on. Dexter, Don Draper, Edward Cullen, etc. are not cuddly, "soft" and dutiful beta males. Nope, they're "bad.""

Judging by pornography men don't fantasize about women who are sexually restrained and proper. That doesn't mean every guy wants to go out and date a girl who's cool with getting double teamed by the pizza guy and the pool boy. I guarantee you that 99.9% of girls who watch Dexter would be repulsed if they found out a guy liked to drown puppies, let alone murder humans.

Most guys fantasize about sluts, at least occasionally. Most guys with at least a fair bit of sexual history will likely have dated a somewhat slut-ish girl at some point. Not that many guys are running out to marry them.

Same with women and thuggish guys. Most women will fantasize about aggressive, dominant guys. Many will at least have a short fling with one or two. However very few to no middle-upper class white women are settling down or entering into long-term relationships with them.

The white-black inter-marriage rate for young adults has not budged since the 1970s. The overall rate is rising, but that's because the older pre-60s generation is dying off. Speed dating experiments show that most white women strongly prefer white men over black men (and other minorities do even worse compared to white men). The desire for thugs and thuggish minorities is and always will be quite rare in the educated classes. Katherine Russell is by far the exception, not the rule.

The vast majority of upper-middle class white women in this country are still marrying boring "beta" providers. The statistics clearly demonstrate this. See Charles Murray's Coming Apart.

Far from being a universal trait in all women. The irresistible desire to "bad-boy alphas" is overwhelmingly concentrated in women who come from bad breeding and poor upbringings (hint: this isn't the same demographic that watch period drama, slow-moving, character driven Mad Men). Non-acted upon fantasies notwithstanding, women who are raised right still in real life overwhelmingly gravitate to beta providers, just as they always have.

Roissy and the man-o-sphere have the mistaken notion that all women are like this because of selection bias. Roissy's romantic life is filled with women that he picks up in bars with "cold approaches", "peacocking" and "negs" for the purpose of quickly "#closing".

PUA 101 is to approach a massive number of women and play the law of large numbers. This guarantees success for a large enough N, but as they say "the odds are good, but the goods are odd." You'll be suffering from economic concept of adverse selection. And the women that you do have success with be among the trashiest, craziest, sluttiest and generally least desirable for a stable relationship. Naturally over time you'll come to believe that all women are like this.

A women with a proper upbringing and of moral reputability will almost never fall for PUA gimmicks.

Anonymous said...

I´m not gonna lie, I´m a guy and I kinda have a crush on the younger one(maybe the older one too).

Partly caused by Steve, of course;

Tscottme said...

The republic is in good hands with these women and girls.

Dr Van Nostrand said...

@Whiskey has it backwards

Katherine Russell was an uber liberal(peace corps!) and she was getting a lot of uh street cred with SWPL friends by converting to Islam.

Feminists will go to all sorts of absurd lengths to justify treatment of women in Islam. I remember Naomi Wolf was talking about wonderful she felt in a abbay(black robe) and niqab(mask).


It is one thing to wear the hijab and live as a Muslim convert in Boston and another to do it in Saudi Arabia.
Most American women married to Saudi men apparently cant wait to exit that hell hole.

So chalk Katherine Russel to scoring liberal brownie points coupled with a schoolgirl crush on an exotic stranger, not neccesarily to Roissyism

Anonymous said...

"and have them be a facebook nerd, or web developer, or something else "icky" for women, involving abstract thinking, lots of math"

First, what's a Facebook nerd? Nerds aren't into social media, social people are. Teenage girls spend more time on Facebook than any other type of human being. Nerds are the opposite. Did "Whiskey" mean guys who've gotten rich through Facebook? THAT isn't icky to women. Also, did he just imply that there might be "lots of math" in web development? Whiskey, do you even know what math is?

Podsnap said...

DR -

Nice comment. You appear to come from the land of common sense. We don't see many of your kind on PUA threads in the manosphere.

Anonymous said...

He's cute. That's all there is to it. As a woman old enough to be his mother, I think he's probably also a little psychopath, but one with a Byronic air. I'm sure some of the mystique will fade as the details come out about his evil doings.

Seamus said...

Many of them mention that ubiquitous photo of Dzhokhar with his hair tousled and too few hairs on his chin to shave.

Kinda like Trayvon Martin's picture.

James Kabala said...

The Internet brings out into the open all the weirdos who previously kept their dark sides hidden. If you turn off your Safe Search and go looking, you can find any conceivable (and many inconceivable for the even half normal) beliefs expressed somewhere. Also, I doubt anyone on these pro-Dzokhar sites is over the age of eighteen. "Teenagers are stupid" is probably a safer generalization than "women are stupid."

(I knew Rosin also refers to adult women who have expressed pity for Dzokhar - I'm not convinced these women are common either, but even if they are, misplaced pity is not the same as a sexual crush - and no one ever feels pity for alpha males!)

Anonymous said...

Thank you, Dr. Van Nostrand, for finally mentioning this! Ms. Russell was an uber liberal status whore in a place where it was a big plus, aside from the getting slapped around once in a while. She never experienced the woman's true place in Islamic society.

I've got $20 that says she bought the pressure cookers.

peterike said...

The vast majority of upper-middle class white women in this country are still marrying boring "beta" providers.

I would agree with this. Yet upper-middle class white women are often the stupidest women of all when it comes to their politics. And the more "upper" they are, the stupider they tend to be.

Imagine America for the past 100 years if women would never have been allowed to vote. It brings a tear to your eye.

PS - Insert standard disclaimer that comments about "women" don't mean ALL women, there are exceptions yadda yadda.

sunbeam said...

Whenever I hear of the case of a female westerner, well any westerner converting to Islam my immediate reaction is to think the person must be insane or retarded.

Occasionally you hear of an educated person doing it. I think some typical brit Oxford type (Pickthal? Pickwick?) converted to Islam, and did some translations of the Koran.

Internally I kind of sneer and think "Well you really weren't very smart after all, were you?"

Whether warranted or not, I have the attitude that... being Islamic is a sign of mental weakness or degeneracy.

If you were raised in that religion, that is one thing. But to willingly convert when you have been raised with other alternatives?

My impression is that it is a sign of mental imbalance or stupidity. There just seems to be nothing in that religion of value.

So basically if I encounter a westerner who converts to Islam, I have contempt for them.

In a way I have a different attitude towards blacks who convert. It actually makes a kind of sense in the internal politics of their mind, at least to my take. Kind of psychically useful.

But anyone else? Come on.

Rohan Swee said...

MC: Pauline Kael alert:
[...]
I am certain that not one person I know at any party would ever say that. And I live about as far from Boston as you can get.


Among my own female friends and relatives, no. They're reminiscent of the ladies of the Iroquois in these matters. Outside my personal circle? Alas, blank-brains, ditzy broads, bliss ninnies, dozy bints, and simpering suckers abound. Caveat: I do live in a SWPL outpost.

Though I do think it speaks to a profound pathology in that stratum of society that these women immediately sympathize even with murderers and mutilators of their own society's children, ffs, and that those children were "disappeared" and the "narrative" rushed into the Poor Little Perp frame in record time.

That's f****d up, even by the standards of the dippiest female irrational sympathizer.

Dahlia said...

The extremes help illustrate the average which is that women do like dominant, aggressive men.

And what is wrong with that?
We live in a world ruled by the aggressive use of force.

Eastern Europe has been on my mind lately. Their women, on and off throughout history, have been sexually exploited by enemies of their people. Is it any wonder that Vladimir Putin, often called a thug in these parts, is so popular with men and women(and hated by foreigners)? Do we see the Caucasian women being victimized by outsiders? The Dzhokhars wouldn't allow it.

Anonymous said...

Geez, my 86 year old mother was telling me the other day that she felt kind of sorry for Dzhokhar, and we talked about it for a little while trying to figure out why. Despite her moderately advanced state of dementia, she was quite aware that this really wasn't an appropriate reaction...

Anonymous said...

Actually Joker and not so great can't defend their women folk. That's why they get pushed to the margins and islamified. Probably Steve and HBD chick are the only two here who have an inkling of how many women crush on murderers and rapists. So many women will do such vile and degrading stuff these inmates tell them to that I am a little afraid when I think about it. Women as a group are truly 'weaker vessels'.

Anonymous said...

You've never worked in law enforcement or corrections have you?

Anonymous said...

"My impression is that it is a sign of mental imbalance or stupidity. There just seems to be nothing in that religion of value."

strict discipline and laying down your life for something larger than it.

"Most American women married to Saudi men apparently cant wait to exit that hell hole."

iceland and saudi arabia are gonna have something in common very soon, ban on pornos!


"The irresistible desire to "bad-boy alphas" is overwhelmingly concentrated in women who come from bad breeding and poor upbringings "


'As early as 1802 .. signs of a changing attitude were becoming dimly perceptible. From the daring rake bent upon carrying off the protesting damsel to his lair, to prey upon her hidden charms, the beau was beginning to be considered a somewhat weak and poor specimen... ... But the preferences of the ladies were clearly in another direction and the Rhett Butlers of the 1800s were much more popular than the gentle beau who were likened to syllabub--"all froth and show, white, sweet and harmless.'

jonathan said...

"Why All This Maternal Sympathy for Dzhokhar?"
It's not maternal sympathy at all. My guess is they want to f**k him.

David said...

eah said

>All of those people should be shown morgue or pre-OP fotos of the victims.<

Photos of the victims might bring a tear to the decent, but not to the trashy women we're talking about.

How many newborns were left by the side of the road in Roman times and earlier? How many fetuses nowadays are - well, no need to go there.

A strong cultural clampdown on women, one preferably led by better women, is in order.

Shuddering to think that harpies like Catherine MacKinnon were right that pornographers should be shut down, for example. But, they were right.

What did the little old lady tell Nietzsche's Zarathustra about going to women?

Ok, let's be objective and give a female point of view now. I've been reading Mexican poetry and here's one of the classics, by a lesbian nun, Sor Juana. Theme: if women are bad, it's all men's fault. "Either like [us] for what you've made [us] or make of [us] what you can like," she says. It is similar to Emilia and Desdemona's final conference in Shakespeare's Othello. (Warning: women who read the Sor Juana poem are likely to stop shaving their legs afterward.)

Svigor said...

Betas don't bomb the Boston Marathon then go party the next day.

Alphas are leaders. Who did these two lead? Btw, "party in NYC" was code for "bomb NYC."

Svigor said...

In a way I have a different attitude towards blacks who convert. It actually makes a kind of sense in the internal politics of their mind, at least to my take. Kind of psychically useful.

You've got to have at least a bit of respect for a brother who can forgo booze and pork.

Dahlia said...

"Actually Joker and not so great can't defend their women folk. That's why they get pushed to the margins and islamified. Probably Steve and HBD chick are the only two here who have an inkling of how many women crush on murderers and rapists. So many women will do such vile and degrading stuff these inmates tell them to that I am a little afraid when I think about it. Women as a group are truly 'weaker vessels'."

Putin has been the best thing to happened to Russia and her people. Would that we had more men like him here.

Anonymous said...

People are conflating the two brothers when the psychology is very different.

Moms and young teenage girls may react in one way to the young one - a reaction that is completely the opposite of PUA meme poison.

A completely different type might react in a completely different way to the boxer.

Even when it's true the women in the second case will be a minority and trying to pretend they're the norm is part of the meme poison.

Now the consequences of feminism's poisoning of the relationship between the genders has become obvious we get PUA meme poison to replace it.

.
"I've noticed men drool over nice-looking female criminals too...Amanda Knox."

Quite.

.
"Tamerlane was relatively average looking, so he's not going to get a lot of attention based on a still picture. He had to work his alpha charm in person. That charm was enough for him to get an attractive American woman to convert to Islam for him, wear full Muslim attire and work 70-80 hours per week for him, while he loafed about at home."

You don't know that. Given her background it's much more likely she was a white liberal guilt tripper who saw it as a self-imposed punishment for "white privilege."

.
DR
Spot on mostly although

"Far from being a universal trait in all women. The irresistible desire to "bad-boy alphas" is overwhelmingly concentrated in women who come from bad breeding and poor upbringings"

I think all human populations went through a time of purely sexual selection in an environment where certain "alpha" type traits were adaptive and that is still there inside people but in populations that left that kind of environment a long time ago attraction to those traits is recessive - except among a minority.

The PUA meme poison takes that component of psychology and tries to pretend it's dominant.

.
"I used to make fun of Whiskey.

Now I gotta admit, that man was right.

Women really do go for alphas with crazy levels of aggression."

Does that include Jewish women? When you ask Whiskey that question he usually goes all quiet.

Dahlia said...

The one thing that a man can provide, that a woman never can, no matter how emancipated or masculine, is protection.

Somehow, the women in Sweden, most notoriously, have lost that desire for masculine strength and look what it is getting them.

Rohan Swee said...

Dr Van Nostrand: It is one thing to wear the hijab and live as a Muslim convert in Boston and another to do it in Saudi Arabia.
Most American women married to Saudi men apparently cant wait to exit that hell hole.


Good point. I don't have much sympathy for women who end up stuck in SA or wherever, or losing their kids if they manage to leave - sheesh, these are people who obviously utterly blew off the due diligence for something as important as choice of mate and family life. But the fact that they're shocked and appalled by reality of life in their new homes suggests ignorance and silly romanticism more than any attraction to that reality.

As for the ones be-scarving themselves in the West: some may be sincerely seeking a traditional maternal role, which they find frowned upon among their own families and peers. But some of them are pretty blatantly attention whoring. (Remarkable how much immodesty and vanity some chicks can manage to display in a hijab or niqab!)

The Legendary Linda said...

Shockingly, there's a lot of paternal sympathy for him too. I saw this big tough cop on TV saying law enforcement needs to be the strong father figure he never had. I think it's because he's young and doesn't look like the dark skinned bearded Muslim extremist people fear.

The Legendary Linda said...

Also worth pointing out that the lack of female attention (other than his weirdo wife Russell) for Tamerlan refutes the Roissy/Whiskey "women prefer alpha male bad boys" hypothesis. Just take a look at Tumblr to see what actors teenage girls like- mostly weedy unthreatening guys with a sensitive, semi-effeminate appearance.

Maybe it's the combination of unthreatening appearance with threatening behavior that these women like. By contrast the older brother just looks like a typical thug.

The Legendary Linda said...

sunbeam, westerners convert to Islam because deep down they long for the socially conservative values of old. Russel probably converted to Islam because she wanted a dominant aggressive traditional hyper-hetero man, not a submissive meterosexual liberal

Paul Mendez said...

"You dont' see women burn, yearn, and fantasize about decency, dutifulness, and so on. Dexter, Don Draper, Edward Cullen, etc. are not cuddly, "soft" and dutiful beta males. Nope, they're "bad.""

Not disagreeing, but there is certainly a subset of women who fall for "wet puppies." In college, we called it a "sympathy fuck."



tairos said...

Who upper-middle class white women finally marry when they're on the verge of losing their looks, and who they spend their prime years hooking up with/"dating" are two very different questions.

And male fantasizing about sluts isn't comparable--sluts don't murder children. As a rule, anyway. And male dalliances with sluts do not diminish their value the way the typical myriad flings with caddish pseudo-thugs diminish a woman's.

heartiste said...

There are many commenters here speaking from ignorance, likely as a result of being out of the dating market for many years and forgetting what it was really about. Yes, chicks dig jerks, and not just the pretty boy ones. There are a fair amount of ugly serial killers and spree shooters who got propositioned by adoring female fans. There's even a website devoted to the particular allure of violent, killer males to women.

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/

Women, especially younger women in their attractive primes, feel drawn to jerks not *despite* their jerkiness, but *because* they are jerks, though they will rationalize their feelings as anything but. Men don't feel this same compulsion toward violent, psychopathic women. The evidence of this sex disparity is overwhelming.

This is not to say ALL women adore killer men. Recall Steve's great post about the shifted probabilities of Muslim rage:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/04/thinking-statistically-about-bomb.html

The same analysis is easily applied to the degree and breadth to which women love assholes and sociopaths. Not all women will swoon over the Tsarnaevs, but the fact that a significant minority of them do tells us that the bell curve of female love for jerks is shifted to the right of what one would expect to see in a totally random mating environment.

That teen girl tingling for Tsarnaev grows up to be that middle aged hausfrau tingling for the sadistic billionaire in Fifty Shades.

DR:
"Roissy's romantic life is filled with women that he picks up in bars with "cold approaches", "peacocking" and "negs" for the purpose of quickly "#closing".

I don't know what Roissy's love life is like, but I can tell you that most pick-ups don't happen in bars. The men I know who spit a good game are dating girls they met on the street, at the finish lines of marathons, and in painting classes. This "only bar sluts fall for game" trope is mere wishful projection by sour grapes enthusiasts.

"PUA 101 is to approach a massive number of women and play the law of large numbers."

No. Only at first do you approach a lot. When you get skilled in the art of applied charm, you can approach fewer girls with better results.

"And the women that you do have success with be among the trashiest, craziest, sluttiest and generally least desirable for a stable relationship."

Not at all. If anything, the women who love game the most, who love the feeling of being seduced by an expert practitioner, are the smart ,educated, careerist SWPL girls.

"Naturally over time you'll come to believe that all women are like this."

Naturally, if you are a beta, you'll come to convince yourself over time that the only girls alphas are banging are sluts nobody wants.

"A women with a proper upbringing and of moral reputability will almost never fall for PUA gimmicks."

You have no idea.

Sheila said...

I'm with Peterike. Women are idiots. What's "cute" about Asiatic features and semitic hair? It's all of a piece with women cooing over African babies, I suppose. Not sentiments I share.

heartiste said...

"You dont' see women burn, yearn, and fantasize about decency, dutifulness, and so on. Dexter, Don Draper, Edward Cullen, etc. are not cuddly, "soft" and dutiful beta males. Nope, they're "bad.""

Precisely. Funny how, when women fantasize, they rarely (never?) fantasize about erotic beta male snuggling. Funny, too, how easily and effortlessly women leave uninspiring beta male lovers and how difficult and painful it is for them to extract themselves from the clutching grasp of alpha male lovers. cf., a classic of the genre: rihanna.

"Not disagreeing, but there is certainly a subset of women who fall for "wet puppies." In college, we called it a "sympathy fuck.""

Yes, and that subset feels icky about it immediately afterward. Not hurt. Just icky.

Anonymous said...

This is one of those times when I feel ashamed to be female. Makes me wonder how blacks go through life without feeling permanently ashamed and embarrassed.

Anonymous said...

I've noticed there's an offshoot in the alt-right that teaches that women are second-class citizens and men must be "alpha" ( which they describe as mean, non-poetic or musical,only go out with "babes," etc. etc.(

Must warn you guys -- when we're facing the race problems we are and the First World vs. Third, you are not helping when you insult 50 of those who agree with you.

Not talking about Steve's column which was a WTF moment for women, too. Talking about the guys who get on sites like this or Amren, etc. and then start insulting American women.

United we stand, fellas. We're on YOUR side, so don't knock us all as cretins. (HT Ramones.)

Anonymous said...

"It's not maternal sympathy at all. My guess is they want to f**k him."

'cougar' love?

Anonymous said...

"I've noticed men drool over nice-looking female criminals too...Amanda Knox."

I was skeptical initially, but now I think she is really innocent. Look at the evidence they have on Rudy Guede, who fled Italy within a few days of the murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher#Rudy_Guede

"The court heard that his handprint was found on a pillow in Kercher's room, and his DNA on and inside her body, as well as on her sweatshirt and bra. Although the faeces Knox had found in the unflushed toilet the morning after the murder could not be identified, Guede's DNA was found on the toilet paper.[125]"

Casey Anthony on the other hand...

James Kabala said...

It's still unclear to me how common this alleged phenomenon is. There are men on the Internet who are obsessed My Little Pony fans - it would be pretty ridiculous to use that as a source for broad generalizations about men.

Svigor said...

Does that include Jewish women? When you ask Whiskey that question he usually goes all quiet.

Illusion. Whiskey's a drive-by troll. He craps in a thread, and he moves on. The back and forth involved in defending one's ideas is for people with a shred of intellectual honesty. But no, he's never going to fold answers to any of those kinds of questions into his boilerplate/thread turds.

The Anti-Gnostic said...

"We're on your side..."

I am 49 years old and Southern Anglo-American middle-class. I would say less than a quarter of women outside my mother's generation have this mindset. I hope I am wrong.

Rohan Swee said...

Though this phenomenon is more intense among women than men, I've noticed men drool over nice-looking female criminals too. One of the recent memes on reddit was "attractive convict." Lots of guys also talked about the hotness of Casey Anthony and Amanda Knox.

Reminds me of Iowahawk's "Hoosegow Honeys".

I do recall some 19th-century author (Mark Twain?) remarking on the fact that murderesses never seemed wanting for marriage proposals. Anecdotally, that phenomenon doesn't seem to have disappeared - remember Karla Faye Tucker? Iirc, she collected quite a male fan club before her execution. (And I do recall correctly, because I remember really wondering about those guys at the time. It's not as if convicted ice-pick murderesses monopolize a significant portion of the class of good-looking women.)

A cursory google turns up claims of streams of marriage proposals for various murderesses of note (and some I've never heard of). Don't know if it's at all comparable to this phenomenon among females, but it suggests that crushing on Bad News isn't unique to one sex.

Anonymous said...

"Photos of the victims might bring a tear to the decent, but not to the trashy women we're talking about."

Total nonsense.

The sort of girls/women gushing over the young one are exactly the opposite of the type you're talking about.

My experience of normal girls in a normal environment is

stage 1)
around 11-13 or so they get into very soft looking, safe boys like Justin Bieber

stage 2)
around 15 or so they go the exact opposite way and get into the most macho boys in the culture - this is the age when they need to be most protected from their hormones

stage 3)
around 18 or so they bounce back to something in the middle of the two extremes

That's what normal - so the young girls gushing over the young one are most likely all in stage 1 not 2.

Secondly it's normal for older women to be mumsy - they're supposed to be mumsy - hbd ftw. If the media focused on the boy who was killed then that maternal instinct would have been directed towards defence of the tribe.

Which is why the media did the opposite and constructed a story where the young bomber was turned into a victim of the older brother to direct that natural maternal thing in a poisonous anti-white direction.

.
"Just take a look at Tumblr to see what actors teenage girls like- mostly weedy unthreatening guys with a sensitive, semi-effeminate appearance."

Exactly

Rohan Swee said...

Anti-Gnostic: I am 49 years old and Southern Anglo-American middle-class. I would say less than a quarter of women outside my mother's generation have this [we're on your side] mindset. I hope I am wrong.

Hell, AG, I'm not convinced that more than a quarter of the white men outside my parents' generation have this mindset.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I would assume the "nice white ladies" include plenty of Jewish women.

Whiskey has spent years ranting about "alphas", "betas", "nice white ladies" feeling sorry for immigrants, "women love thugs", etc.

Well we're seeing it with our own eyes. Tamerlan, a useless deadbeat with a bent up face, had a gigolo arrangement with his workhouse wife (who was an attractive girl from an upper middle class phyisician old blood family) and his brother now has his own fan club.

Can someone explain this?

Remember that guy Joran Van Der Sloot? The guy who killed that girl who disappeared in Aruba (Natalie Holloway)? The guy who was recently jailed for killing a second woman? He had a baby with a woman who married him after he was incarcerated.

Can somebody explain how is this possible?

Then there's John Boehner's daughter and her Jamiacan marijuana-smoking bum of a fiance..........

That's not to say every woman has become deranged, but Whiskey seems on to something. I think he exaggerates it somewhat, but his ravings are more grounded in truth than I would've realized. It's like in the past few weeks, he's been scripting the news.

Damn.

Anonymous said...

"Funny, too, how easily and effortlessly women leave uninspiring beta male lovers and how difficult and painful it is for them to extract themselves from the clutching grasp of alpha male lovers. cf., a classic of the genre: rihanna."

That sounds like a personal story as there's no possible way of knowing.

Women like masculine men - that part is true but the idea they only like abusive men is just total nonsense.

What happened was normal men stopped being masculine under the influence of feminism. "Bad boys" didn't stop hence their seeming advantage but neither did men whose job required being masculine and the latter get more female attention than bad boys as you can easily prove to yourself even just by getting a suitable costume at Halloween.

The reason? I think at the end of the day it is - subconsciously - probably about protection and what is the best protection, a bad boy who can protect you from others but might beat you himself or a white knight with a talent for violence?

The answer should be obvious.

Anonymous said...

To be honest, I think Jewish women wold probably be worse than white gentiles when it comes to liking exotic men.

Anonymous said...

"To be honest, I think Jewish women wold probably be worse than white gentiles when it comes to liking exotic men."

No idea. My point was simply Whiskey has a problem with the question.

Anonymous said...

@Svigor

"Illusion."

Disagree, i think Whiskey is an interesting example of instinctive behavior combined with not playing with a full deck.

Anonymous said...

Notorious serial killer (of her own children, among others) Rosemary West apparently received and accepted a proposal of marriage from the bass player of famous 1970s rock group Slade while she was incarcerated. Sadly, her alpha dog husband Fred did not live long enough to reap the harvest of love letters that was doubtless heading his way.

Svigor said...

Secondly it's normal for older women to be mumsy - they're supposed to be mumsy - hbd ftw. If the media focused on the boy who was killed then that maternal instinct would have been directed towards defence of the tribe.

Which is why the media did the opposite and constructed a story where the young bomber was turned into a victim of the older brother to direct that natural maternal thing in a poisonous anti-white direction.


Bingo. Women are total saps for what they perceive to be the "tribal voice." I.e., society. So they're total saps for TV and other devices that simulate the voice of society. This seems obvious to me about women, but Whis ignores it. In fact, he directly contradicts it (inter alia) by suggesting that women drive all social voices.

Well we're seeing it with our own eyes. Tamerlan, a useless deadbeat with a bent up face, had a gigolo arrangement with his workhouse wife (who was an attractive girl from an upper middle class phyisician old blood family) and his brother now has his own fan club.

Can someone explain this?


Sure. Downward mobility and assortative mating. Losers find losers.

Can somebody explain how [Joran Van Der Sloot] is this possible?

Sure. Psycho meets psycho, magic happens, psycho baby.

Then there's John Boehner's daughter and her Jamiacan marijuana-smoking bum of a fiance..........

That's not to say every woman has become deranged


LOL. Don't sell your theory short. You've got three whole anecdotes there. I think that's solid evidence that every woman has become deranged.

Disagree, i think Whiskey is an interesting example of instinctive behavior combined with not playing with a full deck.

You'll have to explain where we disagree, because I'm agnostic on whether he's operating mostly on instinct (I'd probably even lean toward agreeing with you on that; i.e., him grabbing data that strikes him as exculpatory of YKW makes perfect sense), and I know he's not playing with a full deck (too tone deaf for that).

My point was that Whiskey doesn't "go all quiet" on that issue, because he's always quiet on every issue other than his boilerplate. He doesn't engage on anything, he just craps out his boilerplate and moves on; a classic drive-by troll.

Cail Corishev said...

It's not as if convicted ice-pick murderesses monopolize a significant portion of the class of good-looking women.

When it happens in that direction, it's probably not so much that the men find them fascinating, but that they figure, "Hey, with a felony and a prison record, she'll be easy pickings now!" There's also the White Knight urge, which compels many men to try to "save" a woman who they believe has been wronged in some way. This man often sees women as innocents who could never do something as horrific as murder, therefore she was either framed or forced into it by some sort of abuse, and she's a victim who deserves (and will respond to) his love and understanding.

We're not exactly talking about the cream of the crop here.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgD--h93364

Anonymous said...

Che Guevara and Lawrence of Arabia were good-looking too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edfYEaJo2UA

angrydiana said...

Mr. Sailer,

It gets worse. Now it appears that the SAUDIS warned us, explicitly, about Tamerlan:

http://news.firedoglake.com/2013/05/01/saudis-explicitly-warned-u-s-intelligence-agencies-about-tamerlan-tsarnaev/

The Mail has a story too but I thought that a link from a leftish site would be more convincing.

I guess Tamerlan could seriously say, "I can't get arrested."

Bush was a horrible president but admit it, if something like this happened when he was in office the media would have screamed bloody murder, and he'd have deserved it. But Obama gets away with it.

This sucks.

NOTA said...

Maya:

Fair enough. That's pretty much my whole point--women with brains don't find the lowlife pimp/thug types appealing, women without brains (or rather, with bad judgment--there's something more than just IQ involved there) find them much more appealing, and so the lowlifes' kids get an extra helping of bad-judgment genes and bad-judgment upbringing from mom.

NOTA said...

I imagine some of this effect is just the fact that the surviving bomber's picture looks like a nice, sorta-befuddled kid. He doesn't *look* like the kind of guy who's blow up a bunch of strangers and then get into a shootout with the cops.

It's a sad fact of life that really awful people sometimes look like nice guys, or respectable and upright citizens, or befuddled cute kids, just as other times, perfectly nice people look like psycho killers or something. It's also a sad fact of life that there are plenty of people who can't or won't look past appearances. For example, with an identical set of facts, if Trayvon Martin had looked like a gangbanger, we would never have heard about the case. The cops might or might not have eventually charged Zimmerman inthe shooting (depending on the details of the case and the law), but it was national news because Martin looked like a nice, innocent kid, about to go sing in the church choir. Everyone knows intellectually that looking innocent isn't the same as being innocent, but not everyone manages to have that soak all the way in.

Lisa said...

When I first read about that Roissy junk I took a look at the heartiste- how gay is that name- blog and it made me sick. I don't see how the way they treat women is any different than the Negro's treatment of women.
They use women and don't form lasting monogamous relationships. They're against feminism yet they reject tradition and beauty.

goethechosemercy said...

My sympathy is with Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ.
He is the Son of God, the redeemer of humanity, and the lover of souls.
The helps the uncertain, gives courage to the terrified and will guide our feet into the way of peace.
I have no sympathy or respect for women who claim to have perfect sons and sons who claim perfection above humanity.
The wheel of Ixion awaits their souls for eternity!

Maya said...

"When I first read about that Roissy junk I took a look at the heartiste- how gay is that name- blog and it made me sick. I don't see how the way they treat women is any different than the Negro's treatment of women.
They use women and don't form lasting monogamous relationships. They're against feminism yet they reject tradition and beauty."

Calm down. Most of that blog is self-contradicting fantasy for those who didn't get enough validation in high school and failed to move past it. Heartiste himself has a desperate need for everyone's approval. He'll high five his admirers over women being stupid sluts, but he'll back track and swear up and down that the women he supposedly sleeps with are nothing of the sort if he gets an inkling that someone is unimpressed with his constructed persona. The dude's life is spent obsessing over his internet image and whether something is "alpha" enough, from what I could tell.

And as far as the gimmicks discussed on his blog actually working on women... Sure. What they call disqualifying, negging and comfort building are nothing but sales techniques that are centuries old. They work on people like Heartiste himself, people who put too much value in the opinions of, pretty much, everyone and are thus easy to manipulate. Both personal liberty and tradition are meaningless concepts to such people.

Do the women and men who fall for this get hurt? Probably. But they also get hurt by people selling them crappy shiny cars, overpriced Apple products and not being able to keep up with each passing fad. They get really hurt by aging (again, see Heartiste)because they are unable to do so with dignity. Such is the life of a person with a weak sense of self. PUA stuff doesn't really make things better or worse for either sex, even in the short term. And there is nothing you can do to help them. They'll always overspend on clothes or walk around naked or do whatever it is they think the crowd wants from them at that moment.

Maya said...

"Women like masculine men - that part is true but the idea they only like abusive men is just total nonsense."

In my opinion, it's not only nonsense, but a contradiction.

Around the past several threads on the subject of these terrorists, people seem to assert that low ambition, violence, tantrums, lack of empathy and poor self-control are the building blocks of masculinity.

Am I the only one here whose platonic idea of a most masculine man isn't a thug, but an engineer?

Seriously, if a Man is the intersection of male and human, what can be more masculine than an engineer? In my view, he who is the creator, the passionate problem solver, the compassionate pragmatic, the dreamer strong enough to control and direct his own vision is the ultimate man. (Incidentally, I think I just described my father.)

The Roman Empire is remembered more for it's accomplishments in arts and sciences than for the battles that were won. And, of course, real art is also a very masculine occupation since it's the other side of engineering's coin, the act of obtaining a vision, distilling it into accurate concepts and giving them the most fitting form. When Rome was sacked, the top barbarians wanted to marry into Roman families. They tried to preserve Roman culture and language.

Oh, and in the long term, wars are won with cooperating superior intellects and better technology. If it wasn't as obvious before (how are the Mongolians doing today?0, it should be crystal clear in 2013.

Steve Johnson said...

"Am I the only one here whose platonic idea of a most masculine man isn't a thug, but an engineer?"

Hence the expression:

"Get laid like engineers"

or is that "get laid like rock stars"?

I'm clearly getting old because I can't remember.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glsytnUdt-E

Guy looks like Joker.

Robert in Arabia said...

19 Arabs with box-cutters pulled off 911. Tra-la! Tra-la!

Maya said...

"Get laid like engineers"

or is that "get laid like rock stars"?

I'm clearly getting old because I can't remember."

Ah, and you bring the conversation back to the original topic. You see, there are girls out there writing love letters to low life criminals because there are men out there who yearn to mate with the types of women who could lower themselves to becoming groupies. It's not your fault that you have low standards and your instincts misfire causing you to desire poor quality women. Similarly, these girls don't have bad taste and find themselves in bad situations on purpose. The both of you were made that way. I guess, it's hard for you to imagine that men of higher order recoil from markers of low intelligence, mental defects and vulgar behavior in the same way that they recoil from obesity, acne and hirsutism. And their daughters are a lot less likely to fall for jokers.

My beacon of masculinity married a teenager with a 24 inch waist, huge cat eyes, natural blonde ringlets and ample curves. While she's never been as smart and talented as he is, she is a fellow engineer and an accomplished violinist. They had 4 kids and just celebrated 32 years of a pretty darn good marriage together. Of men who were ever known to have sex with groupies, how many turned out to be capable of maintaining a successful relationship and creating kids who don't embarrass them at every turn? But you can't explain "quality over quantity" to someone who doesn't get it.

Steve Johnson said...

Hmm, let's run through the debate checklist:

Insults (with no basis in reality).

"It's not your fault that you have low standards and your instincts misfire causing you to desire poor quality women."

Check

Argument by anecdote:

"My beacon of masculinity married a teenager with a 24 inch waist, huge cat eyes, natural blonde ringlets and ample curves. While she's never been as smart and talented as he is, she is a fellow engineer and an accomplished violinist."

Check.

Now we're arguing like a woman!

Excellent job!

Here's the point past your squid ink:

The qualities women are attracted to are a negative for society - narcissism, sociopathy, and machievellianism. Any man will improve his mating prospects by acting as if he had higher doses of those traits.

Those traits fuck up societies. Reasonable societies constrain women's mating choices because women are far more socially destructive than men. They are actively attracted to anti-social qualities. Men, at worst, are indifferent to pro-social qualities - so they've got that going for them, which is nice.

"I guess, it's hard for you to imagine that men of higher order recoil from markers of low intelligence, mental defects and vulgar behavior in the same way that they recoil from obesity, acne and hirsutism. And their daughters are a lot less likely to fall for jokers. "

Yeah, just like Mrs. Tamerlan would never fall for a Chechen muslim with no prospects who beat her occasionally.

Maya said...

"Insults (with no basis in reality)."

Perhaps, I misunderstood you. I thought you hinted that a rock star's ability to get defective women in abundance is something to envy and a much better measure of masculinity than a true accomplishment. If you are at all jealous of a man who screws groupies, you are attracted to very low quality women. That's reality.

"Argument by anecdote"
Not an argument. Just a comment on what I grew up with and an example of a successful scenario I've seen played out countless times.

But, of course, judging women as a whole by what a very small self-selected number of attention whores (and who, do you think, uses tmblr and online journals to display themselves?) says isn't aguing by anecdote at all, in your esteemed opinion. To call your sample size neither random nor sufficient would be a ridiculous understatement.

"The qualities women are attracted to are a negative for society - narcissism, sociopathy, and machievellianism. Any man will improve his mating prospects by acting as if he had higher doses of those traits. "

I'm sure women of your level are like that. After all, you seek solace in being a gender warrior while, at the same time, measuring men by the number of vaginas they got into, so women in your circle are likely to be just as immature. You are from that layer of society with the abysmal divorse rates, aren't you? Of course, a man can get into more vaginas if he caters to the lowest common denamenator since people of high quality are few and those of poor quality are many. Similarly, a woman could get more dates by pushing up her tits, wearing more make up and showing her thong. But only trash would desire a man who could be attracted like this because such a man himself is trash. And the type of a man who would desire women with mental defects/personality disorder and would even consider feigning a personality disorder of his own to attract them is a weak man with little to recommend him. Water seeks its own level.

"Yeah, just like Mrs. Tamerlan would never fall for a Chechen muslim with no prospects who beat her occasionally."

Mrs. Tamerlan did fall for a piece of garbage because she is a defective woman with a weak sense of self, no ambition, no self-respect, screwed up priorities and no future orientation, among other things. And yet, you envy the thug who married her. It's got to be because a disordered woman is your natural match. Better men desire better women. People of lower order attract each other and proceed to make each other misarable. Nothing can be done to help such people.


Steve Johnson said...

"Perhaps, I misunderstood you. I thought you hinted that a rock star's ability to get defective women in abundance is something to envy and a much better measure of masculinity than a true accomplishment."

Perhaps you don't understand much.

You deem the women who have sex with rock stars "defective" on the basis that they have sex with rock stars. You deem Tamerlain's wife defective based on the fact that she married him. If you were asked beforehand, she's not. She's educated and from a solid background and she's not even close to the only one but that upsets you so you decided to attack the person who pointed it out.

Apparently my noticing reality says all sorts of things about my character:

"You are from that layer of society with the abysmal divorse rates, aren't you? "

No.

"If you are at all jealous of a man who screws groupies, you are attracted to very low quality women. That's reality."

You're not too bright are you? I was using common expression to demonstrate that your nonsense about engineers getting all the best girls is ridiculous. I guess in your world if someone has heard of the expression "get laid like a rockstar" and hasn't heard of "get laid like an engineer" (except as a warning) he must be jealous or something.

"And yet, you envy the thug who married her. "

Do you have any reading comprehension? She's an example - she's a data point. Envy her husband? I don't know her or him and, not being a woman, I am capable of thinking about abstract matters rather than personalizing everything.

Run out insults all you want - it's not going to make people unsee what's right in front of them and it will actually convince people who were doubtful that you're trying to hide something you find uncomfortable.

chris said...

"Same with women and thuggish guys. Most women will fantasize about aggressive, dominant guys. Many will at least have a short fling with one or two. However very few to no middle-upper class white women are settling down or entering into long-term relationships with them."

Great, so that future upper-middle class boy gets to work his ass off for 15 years improving his socio-economic value while his future wife spends her best years giving it up for free to players in nightclub toilets, players who instead of working their ass off for 15 years to get her when she was at her best, at most just spent 1 year in the gym.

Sounds like a winning deal for that future upper-middle class boy. Paying full-price for left-overs. Fuck yeh sign me up!

Shmiggen Mghow said...

I love how Maya's perfect man is an engineer - not a man who feels good about himself, but a mono-dimensional tool, a utility. George Sodini was an engineer.