October 21, 2013

NYT tries to deal with gypsy child-stealing

The New York Times gets around to reporting on the Greek gypsy story:
Roma Couple Ordered Jailed by Greek Authorities 
By NIKI KITSANTONIS and DAN BILEFSKY 
ATHENS — A Roma couple was ordered jailed on Monday over the alleged abduction of a child who was found during a police raid on an encampment in central Greece last week. The case has fueled speculation about human trafficking and illegal adoption rackets, and heightened scrutiny of Roma populations across Europe. 
The couple, identified by the police as Christos Salis, 39, and Eleftheria Dimopoulou, 40, insisted during five hours of testimony that they adopted the child from a Bulgarian woman.

The crucial detail being left out at this point is that they offered multiple stories about the child before, apparently, now settling on the Bulgarian one.

On the other hand, I wouldn't rule out completely the idea that the gypsy scamsters may have gotten the girl in some kind of quasi voluntary transaction with the girl's mother or other relations rather than through sheer kidnapping.

First, the idea that they may have obtained the little blonde girl voluntarily from a part-gypsy mother, perhaps a drug addict or prostitute, is not wholly implausible.

While genetic studies shows that gypsies originated in India, gypsy-acting individuals come in a wide variety of phenotypes. I was once ripped off in a classic gypsy scam by two Caucasians, one of whom looked Armenian or Lebanese, while the boss looked liked a 400-pound version of Danny Devito (yes, he was as charming a sight as that sounds). The woman with them was gypsy-looking, but under the streetlights it was easy for me to assume she was just a run of the mill Mexican.

To coach each other during the scam, the scamsters occasionally switched from American-accented lower class white-style English (kind of like how the characters talk on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia) to some unknown language. Interestingly, whatever this language was, they spoke the mystery language with regular American English accents. The psychological effect was quite strange: it was as if these guys were speaking English but your brain had stopped processing your own language. Perhaps it was some kind of Thieves' Cant. Were they gypsies? Irish travelers? Somebody else who had picked up gypsy culture on their own? Beats me.

It's not unknown in history for a group to take on aspects of a culture that they aren't related to by blood. For example, the great Russian novelists like Tolstoy were fascinated by how Christian Cossacks, typically Slavic serfs who had run off to Russia's southern steppe frontier, took on much of the horse-based culture of their Muslim enemies like the Kazakhs and the Chechens. (By the way, that's what Borat is ultimately about: Kazakhs = the hated Cossacks in Sacha Baron-Cohen's mind. And f you want to see what a gypsy village looks like, that's where Baron-Cohen filmed the section set in Borat's home town.)

The Irish travelers might be similar to the Cossacks in picking up traits from the gypsies. Or may not. Who knows, maybe some American carnies, say, study the gypsy style for clues on easy money? Or maybe it is all independent but convergent cultural evolution toward a lifestyle of mostly nonviolent criminal parasitism?

In summary, while it's correct to say that gypsies trace back genetically to India, their culture includes a sizable penumbra of people of various degrees of European ancestry. So, I wouldn't completely rule out that this little blonde girl had a gypsy-identifying mother and that one of the defendants' many stories of how they acquired her might be more true than the theory they they just snatched her off the street.
Ms. Dimopoulou had a second identification card giving her name as Selini Sali with a different date and place of birth. They will stand trial on charges of abducting a minor and forging official documents. ...
The case comes amid an increasingly acrimonious debate in Europe over how to integrate the Roma, a nomadic people who came to the Continent centuries ago from India, and who are also widely known as Gypsies. 
In France, President François Hollande intervened over the weekend after a 15-year-old Roma girl was removed from a school bus and expelled to Kosovo, along with her parents and five siblings who had been living illegally in France for five years. After the case led to protests by student groups across the country, Mr. Hollande said the girl, Leonarda Dibrani, could return to France to finish her studies, but that her family would not be able to join her.

The case of Maria the little blonde girl comes as an unwelcome wrench in the gears of an international elite multiculti campaign led by the NYT based around the 15-year-old gypsy girl being arrested and deported with her family back to Kosovo by French authorities. (That was an ideal case for promoting The Narrative about white bigotry: this was a 15-year-old gypsy girl who was still in school.)

This kind of unwelcome news story drives the global Establishment nuts: they've got this human interest story all lined up to push their dominance, and then suddenly the Daily Mail and economically struggling papers like the L.A. Times discover a much more interesting human interest story that undermines the Narrative.

I learned about the story last Friday from the LA Times, which splashed it big without all that many excuses for gypsies.

Why? Gypsies kidnapping little blonde girls is exactly the kind of story that would intrigue Los Angeles' immense number of Latinos. In my experience, Mexicans are fascinated by the concept of malevolent gypsy fortune tellers putting curses on people. (For example, I'd never heard of Sam Raimi's 2009 horror film Drag Me to Hell when it came out, but L.A. Mexicans love it.) In the good old days, the high-toned LAT could ignore the tabloid tastes of Mexicans as long as the Mexicans kept paying for used car adds in the LAT's giant classifieds section, but post-Craig's List, the Grey Girl has to pander to L.A.'s new lowbrow demographics that the LAT so long editorialized in favor of acquiring.
At a time of grinding austerity and persistent unemployment across Europe, minorities and migrants are facing a growing political and economic backlash. The Roma, blighted by poverty and living in squalid housing on the outskirts of some European cities, have been singled out for attention.

An alternative interpretation of the sequence of cause and effect is that the Roma have been, predictably, doing things that attract attention. The main change is that the expansion of the EU allows gypsies to travel from their bases in Eastern Europe into richer, more naive Western Europe. When I say it was predictable, I mean I predicted this trend in a 2004 VDARE article "A Gypsy Is Haunting Europe ..." The NYT continues:
An estimated 11 million Roma are scattered across Europe. 
In Greece, officers’ suspicions were raised when they spotted the girl, who has light blond hair, pale skin and green eyes and bore no resemblance to the other camp residents. Subsequent DNA tests proved that she was not related to the Roma couple who were harboring her, the police said. ...
The Roma couple had given conflicting explanations to the police about how they acquired the girl – including that they had found her outside a supermarket when she was infant. Ultimately, they said they had adopted her after she was abandoned by her birth mother, a Bulgarian national. 
Panagiotis Tziovaras, the head of the Larissa police department, said Monday that it was possible the Roma couple was involved in human trafficking, state records showed them to have a total of 14 children registered in different parts of Greece. But he stressed that it was too early to draw any firm conclusions. 
“It could be an abduction, an illegal abduction, she could be a trafficking victim,” he said in a telephone interview. “We’re looking at all these options.”

We can't yet conclude that the child was kidnapped from her mother. In the chaos of gypsy culture, she might have been born to, say, a fair-skinned gypsy prostitute and traded along as a valuable commodity for use in begging and organized thievery. Gypsies use children all the time in their scams, and a child who doesn't look gypsy is less suspicion-arousing than their own children who do look like stereotypical gypsies. Also, if you are thinking about maiming a child to make her a better beggar, as in Slumdog Millionaire, you might wish to stockpile other people's children.

Child-stealing is an old stereotype about gypsies (e.g., the four-year-old Adam Smith was abducted by gypsies). Because it's a stereotype, it's fervently believed by the Great and the Good that it absolutely can't be true. That would mean that average people sometimes correctly notice patterns, and we can't have people noticing things for themselves. It's central to the dominant mindset that regular people can't notice patterns. Whether "can't" is used empirically or morally is left vague, with upholders of the conventional wisdom switching from one to the other.

My guess is that gypsy child-stealing really was a pattern, but it has largely disappeared because it elicited such ferocious reactions from the victims' communities. Europeans will put up with a lot of gypsy bad behavior, but not with child-stealing.
Documents found in the couple’s possession suggested that Ms. Dimopoulou had given birth to six of the 14 children within a 10-month period, the police official said, adding that Ms. Dimopoulou also had two police identity cards with different details and that Mr. Salis had been arrested for armed robbery in the past. 
... He said Maria’s case had “opened a Pandora’s box about what’s happening with the Roma and the exploitation of children in Greece but also in Europe.” He said there were no statistics to indicate how many children were victims of such rackets “because the authorities have not tackled the issue for fear of being accused of racism.” 
Representatives of the Roma community in Farsala appeared on several Greek television channels on Monday, asserting that Maria had been well-cared-for at the camp. The head of the Farsala Roma community, Babis Dimitriou, said that the real parents of the child were a Bulgarian Roma couple who had been at the camp last week during the police raid but had left. He expressed fears that the case would fuel discrimination against Roma in Greece and beyond.

After all, we can't have gypsies learning that there are boundaries of bad behavior that they can't cross, that child-stealing has consequences.

It will be interesting to see whether the global elite media gin up some other human interest case involving oppressed gypsies victimized by bigoted whites to distract from this one, or will drop the whole subject and imply that only lowbrows are at all interested in gypsies.

You might think that the keepers of the conventional wisdom would have decided to go easy on gypsy news the way they go easy on black crime news. It should have been utterly obvious that gypsy culture is extraordinarily sociopathic and parasitical, but instead, the NYT and co. chose to make a big deal out of the oppression of gypsies by whites. Maybe they just can't help themselves?

The inevitable embarrassment is now happening, but, as with the Trayvon Martin fiasco, if your hands are on the megaphone you can rewrite history a lot better than if your hands aren't.

For the NYT to drop its obsession with white oppression of gypsies and using gypsies as the main salient in the Immigration Wars seems easiest, but much of what you read in the prestige press is driven by a hyper-Leninist neurotic logic that "He who says A must say B ... and C and D and E and F." For example, if we let somebody get away with saying in public A -- "Gypsies have an unfortunate culture and they should try harder to be less of a burden on the rest of humanity" -- pretty soon they'll be shouting F from the church tops, and then the peasants with pitchforks will be coming after us.

I think this kind of neuroticism is bizarrely implausible, but you aren't supposed to criticize it, so it tends to fester and expand over time.

80 comments:

Anonymous said...

For example, the great Russian novelists like Tolstoy were fascinated by how Christian Cossacks, typically Slavic serfs who had run off to the Southern frontier, took on the horse-based culture of their Muslim enemies like the Chechens.

You mean the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. Both "Cossack" and "Kazakh" are corruptions of the Kyrgyz word "qazaq", which means free (semi-nomadic).

Anonymous said...

I was once ripped off in a classic gypsy scam by two Caucasians

What happened? Did they feign desperation to get you to donate a few dollars? Or was it more elaborate?

Penny Al Arrabiata said...

Representatives of the Roma community in Farsala appeared on several Greek television channels on Monday, asserting that Maria had been well-cared-for at the camp."

None of the other Gypsies in the camp cared that this couple had a child who looked nothing like them? That's the more troublesome matter. All their fellow Gypsies were looking the other way.

It's not as if they have the money to care for/adopt children that aren't their own. Forget the kidnappers. Kidnapping happens everywhere. This is kidnapping being tolerated by an entire community.

Obama pees sitting down said...

I know there is a decent amount of phenotype spread in most groups, but to classify either of these as 'Irish' in heritage is a bit too far of a stretch, Steve.

One looks like she frequently patronizes a Lebanese restaurant, the other looks like he was the Bangladesh immigrant they hired to wash dishes in the back.

I strongly doubt either of these has an O'Neill or Sullivan in their family tree.

Now the little girl on the other hand, I could believe it.

The Anti-Gnostic said...

Race is a social construct! It's just skin color! We all bleed red!

Anonymous said...

Gypsies used to be hunted for sport in Europe:

http://chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies2.html

" Also in the 16th century began the "gypsy hunts." Not unlike a fox hunt, the Gypsies were rounded up and hunted for sport. This savage practice was prevalent in Switzerland, in Holland up to the 18th century and reaching as far as Denmark. No crime needed to have been committed by these people in order for them to be incarcerated or hunted down like animals.

In 1589 the King of Denmark decreed that any leader of a Gypsy band was to be sentenced to death. Honors and rewards were given to those who would participate in Gypsy hunts and capture them. These hunts continued as late as the 19th century.

A great Gypsy hunt covering four districts of Jutland took place on November 11, 1835. The day brought in a bag of over 260 men, women and children.

A Rheinland landowning aristocrat is said to have entered in his list of game killed during a day's hunting:

Item: A Gypsy woman with leer sucking babe. (Kenrick 1972:46)

In Germany and other countries the law supported this treachery. Martin Block, the Gypsiologist, had recorded the following German law enacted in Aachen in 1728:

...in order to root out this brood of rascals... whether the Gypsies resist or not, these people shall be put to death. Nevertheless, those who... do not counterattack may be granted at most half an hour, to go on their knees and beg of the Almighty, if they so wish, pardon for their sins and to prepare for death ....(Greenfeld 1977:61).

In an account of the "miserable state of these people," the scholar Grellman stated, "They were not always looked upon as human creatures, for at a hunting party, at one of the small German courts, a mother and her child, were shot like a couple of wild beasts." (Greenfeld 1977:61)."

Anonymous said...

The first I ever heard of Gypsy child-stealing was from an old episode of "Beavis & Butt-head." The dim-witted duo had to do that old Home-Ec project where you had to pretend a sack of sugar was a baby and take care of it accordingly. Of course, they immediately destroyed it. When forced to explain to their teacher what had happened, Butt-head claimed that their "baby" had been "stolen by Gypsies in the night."

A Working Class American said...

this whole multiculti/pluralism snafu is indeed neurotic to the max, but why?

One reason is that neither side can really address in full the prime motivation for multiculti/pluralism -- that it is being used to help the corporations/rich investors shoehorn in yet more cheap third world labor into the western developed nations.

The PseudoLeft Dems cannot admit that multiculti/pluralism is a tool of Capital because....well, the Left is supposed to be against Capital. And multiculti/pluralism is probably now the core defining aspect of the American Left.

And the FauxPopulist Rightwing GOP cannot admit that multiculti/pluralism is a tool of Capital...because, well, part of the cultural dogma of the American Right is that Capital is benevolent and good and righteous and...you're not even supposed to say the word 'Capital,' cuz if you do use that word then you are a dirty pinko commie.

Hence the neuroticism that pervades everything to do with multiculti/pluralism. This multiculti/diversity/pluralism propaganda regime is so well set in the mainstream american culture that, when combined with the decades-old propaganda war on Socialism fought in America by Capital, we are now well into Orwellian vocabulary/ecosystem territory--DoubleThink, ThoughtCrime, etc....

There are entire areas of political discourse that are now verboten. This is the net effect of these two decades-long propaganda wars fought by Capital in the minds of Americans: the war against socialism, and then the war for multiculti/pluralism.

Penny Al Arrabiata said...

From an article in The Daily Beast:

"Eleftheria Dimopoulou, 40, and her husband Hristos Salis, 39, faced charges of kidnapping and falsifying documents in a Greek court on Monday in connection with Maria’s discovery last week during a routine weapons and drug sweep of the Farsala camp north of Athens. They face 10-year prison terms if convicted."

Ten years. For kidnapping and document forgery. Ten years. WTF???

Anonymous said...

When forced to explain to their teacher what had happened, Butt-head claimed that their "baby" had been "stolen by Gypsies in the night."

I wonder if Gypsy-child-stealing was also exploited by abusive parents who "accidentally" killed their burdensome children? Junior just died, let's bury him in the cellar and tell the village priest that the Gypsies took him.

Whiskey said...

The OC Register Sunday behind paywall, I get the dead tree edition, noted that France is pushing Gypsy camps in the ... toniest part of Paris, 16th Arrondissment. Meanwhile the FT reports that Valls is facing dismissal and the compromise by Hollande to all the 15 year old back in school is not enough for the socialists. They want ALL the family back and open arms for all gypsies.

Reason? Le Pen is no threat they will simply arrest her and outlaw the FN. Golden Dawn has a point about illegal immigrants but the party has been effectively outlawed and that is that. Gypsy ahoy!

Penny Al Arrabbiata said...

Also from The Daily Beast: "Overall, the couple received 2,500 euros ($3,420) per month in state assistance."

They were getting $41,000/year in state assistance. This is in Greece. You know the Greece that's going broke? Yeah, that one.

Kibernetika said...

Steve, as soon as I saw that pic in the press agency stories, I hoped it would end up here ;)

And regarding the real, current Kazakhs, one must note that their nation now is the only stable place in the region. Kazakhstan is doing very well, while her neighbors suffer insecurity, instability, and many fundamental problems.

KZ is, for the most part -- and from the government on down -- a secular, progressive and very Western-leaning place.

But back to the true gypsy issue, which now revolves around Western Europe. The real gypsies will soon (further) invade S. B. Cohen's London, and it'll be interesting to observe that from the sidelines :)



Whiskey said...

Fwiw, theauthor of McMafia, Misha Glenny a BBC journslist wrote that the Albanians were the number one human traffickers and Gypsies #2.

Destination, the Gulf. Of course those were far older girls and women. Mostly Eastern European. Given the young age I would suspect Western European pervs particularly the Belgians who had a nasty child sex slavery scandal with pols and security service people involved, allegedly. That serms to be the market for blonde tots.

Anonymous said...

Why, oh why, couldn't the Greek organization known as Golden Dawn chose another name? A different Golden Dawn already exists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn

Anonymous said...

They use very young, very cute kids for begging and then sell them on as prostitutes when they get too old. It's more likely they bought her off a druggie than snatched her but it's possible.

I've no doubt the myth about them child-snatching in the past is in fact completely true as they have the entirely sociopathic attitude to out-groups you would expect from clan-based nomads.

The irony is if the "anti-racists" applied their principles evenly then gypsies would probably be right at the top of the naughty list.

Anonymous said...

"Gypsies used to be hunted for sport in Europe:"

No they weren't.

Although that's exactly the sort of story multicultists would need to invent in this context.

Anonymous said...

Just Do It
Just do, what? Swipe a white kid?

Ichabod Crane said...

"I think this kind of neuroticism is bizarrely implausible:" ['pretty soon they'll figure out E, and then the peasants with pitchforks will be coming after us.']

ONe of your commenters on a gypsy story last month said, "Well, if we admit that 'racist' depictions of gypsies have any basis in fact.. well, guess what other shoe will drop? Who have been the two most 'persecuted' groups in Europe.. the gypsies and the ... ?"

ONe of your commenters on a gypsy story last month said, "Well, if we admit that 'racist' depictions of gypsies have any basis in fact.. well, guess what other shoe will drop? Who have been the two most 'persecuted' groups in Europe.. the gypsies and the ... ?"

What if we are the peasants with pitchforks?

Prof. Woland said...

If Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie can do it, and Madonna can do it, why can't Bruno?

Anononymous said...

No that we've abolished corporeal punishment, we can use Gypsys as a substitute.

"If you don't behave, I'll sell you to the Gypsies!"

Anonymous said...

Of course, the danger is that we night start to think that even older stories of child-snatching that stuck in the publuc consciousness, like Simon of Trent et al., might have had a basis in truth as well. And we can't have that.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I also want to hear about the scam that was perpetrated against Steve.

Anonymous said...

Steve, anyone else notice that the guy in the photo posing with the stolen baby is wearing a shirt that says Just Do It?

No irony there, huh?

Probably not the message an innocent man would want to send.

Darwin's Sh*tlist said...

But, but...Django Reinhardt!

Chicago said...

The EU seemed to be pretty quick in getting Romania and Bulgaria to join up. Were they worried that they might somehow slip away, perhaps to embrace the Russians? The pickings in the wealthier countries are certainly a tremendous lure to the gypsies who must by now be tired of having fished in the same old pond for all these years. It's off to the brighter lights for them. This is a once in a millennium opportunity for Romania and Bulgaria to divest themselves of this particular demographic. Fare-thee-well, it was nice to know ya.

Volksverhetzer said...

The big, but really not a secret, is that the gypsies are descendants of slaves. The last of them were freed about 150 years ago.

After I found out this, the gypsy culture started to make evolutionary sense.

The gypsies that did normal work lost contact with the other gypsies, that made money for their owners by traveling. From the "Romanipen" perspective this is death, so naturally something that they teach their children to be avoided at all costs.

I find it quite amusing, in all the tragedy that is the Gypsies, that it is the leftist, liberal, do good'ers, that help Gypsies integrate in society, that is seen as the most evil and dangerous of us Gadje. That do good'ers also kill Gypsies by stealing their children, and bringing them up without Romanipen, kind of makes it a gypsy's duty to rob and steal from them.

I don't know if this is just politically correct bullshit, but from gypsy perspective one could argue that by stealing children, they are in fact saving them, as life outside Romanipen is death. That a slave culture, who have experienced their own children sold in generations, should have less qualms about stealing children of others, is anyway to be expected.

I don't think it matters much in the long run, if it is PC-bullshit, as the fact that the gypsies see us gadje as some evil creatures, that ooze pollution and spoil everything we come in contact with, is something impossible to acknowledge publicly, and stay accepted by the orthodox thought police. I thus see the Gypsies as the number one antidote against PC, with Somalians as good seconds.

Whose slaves the "Roma" originally were, is not really known, but they seem to come out of areas with many Jews, latifundas and Muslim overlords.

I admit that it is interesting if the long period of slavery selected strongly for some personality traits, but it is obviously not completely true, as if they were born parasites and sociopaths, there would be no reason for them to teach each other about how horrible evil we Gadjes are. The last part applies to Jews as well.

I also find it interesting, that the Gypsies seem to have continued the practice with a slave owner sending them out to "save goods from pollution". I don't think they would do this unless there is some benefit involved, and for a society outside the law, slaves might have better protection and organization than free agents.

Being afraid of the boss, and being afraid of losing face in a small bonded group, is a well known recipe for sociopathic behaviour against outsiders, and it probably don't make the Gypsies behave any better, even if it makes them more successful "harvesters".

Indiana Jack said...

Since the little girl's DNA has been tested, wouldn't it be possible for an analysis to determine the part of Europe where she was most likely born, or if she is actually half Roma?

Thomas O. Meehan said...

When CNN covered the story the (black) female newscaster managed to reported this entire story of Gypsy child abduction without mentioning the word Gypsy at all. Unfortunately for her, one of her interviewees did. A second do-gooder interviewee reported that human traffickers "Among" the Gypsies needed to be watched. So no group differences or characteristics can be noticed whatsoever.

Volksverhetzer said...

"Gypsies used to be hunted for sport in Europe"

It used to be the job of the King to protect his subjects, and if hunting Gypsies for sport was what that was needed to keep them away, it is quite understandable.

Even if the gypsies did not steal children or trick people into following them, in order to sell them as slaves, being poor, and being robbed, could mean starvation death for a family member in pre-industrial time, and once the Gypsies knew they would be shot on sight, they naturally stayed away.

Reg Cæsar said...

...when combined with the decades-old propaganda war on Socialism fought in America by Capital…

You yourself are decades behind in your reading. Put down the Jack London and read the old John Birch Society's tracts about how the Soviet Union was a pet project of US robber barons. (Might be true of Mao, too, considering recent trade history…)

Only recently have major corporations been founded at universities. Have any socialist or other leftist movements been born anywhere else? "Socialism" is just another upper-class plaything.

Why a "working-class American" would look up to sissy-boy toff poseurs like Che is beyond me.

Jeff W. said...

In Australia they don't need Gypsies to steal babies because they have dingoes.

It shows that you are pretty low in the social hierarchy when your niche can be filled by a a marsupial dog.

Anonymous said...

The EU seemed to be pretty quick in getting Romania and Bulgaria to join up.

Much quicker than Turkey, which doesn't have nearly the same gypsy problem.

Anonymous said...

Whose slaves the "Roma" originally were, is not really known, but they seem to come out of areas with many Jews, latifundas and Muslim overlords.

The largest gypsy slaveholder in 19th century Romania was the Orthodox Church.

map said...

Please. There were no "gypsy hunts." Gypsies were bountied, and rightfully so, given their thievery and kidnapping.

The gypsy hunt is a lie and it is completely irrelevant how many academic tracts are cited.

map said...

The Gypsies were not slaves. They were originally from India and moved into Europe by way of Egypt. In fact, "Gypsy" is a derivation of the Greek word "Ehypta", which means Egyptian.

Anonymous said...

No they weren't.

Although that's exactly the sort of story multicultists would need to invent in this context.


Yeah, they were. See this link:

http://chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies2.html

Discard said...

What, exactly, is wrong with rounding up sociopaths and forcing them to earn their keep? Slavery isn't always a bad thing. It's a much better idea that tolerating parasites.

Anonymous said...

Just think, 100 hundred years ago all the Roma were in territory controlled by the European empires - as was India. Its a shame some sort of deal couldnt have been made to ship the lot of them back to India.

Anonymous said...

At last!

Now we know the source of Steve's 'hairy-man' phobia.

Anonymous said...

Gypsies vary in phenotype. They can vary in skin tone from brown like you see in India (as in the picture in the post above) to a lighter, more olive complexion like you see in the Mediterranean or Southern Europe. Those with the lighter skin tone can pass for Lebanese, Southern Euro, Balkan, Romanian, etc. However, they do tend to be short and rotund regardless of skin tone.

There's a reality show on the National Geographic Channel called "American Gypsies" that follows some gypsy families in New York that run those seedy psychic shops. Physically, they could pass for Italians or Greeks, especially with the kinds of suits and clothing they wear and their accents. The difference is that they're all uniformly short and rotund, whereas with a group of Italians you'll have more variation in height and weight and body type.

Here's the trailer to the show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm3O9hQudrM

Anonymous said...

The Gypsies can be traced to India linguistically as well as genetically. They speak an Indo-Aryan language.

Anonymous said...

The scenario Steve is describing is basically the essence of 'leftism'. Basically these days the left is more interested in making any honest talk about HBD as socially unacceptable as flatulence in public, concomitant with that is pushing downright lies about 'equality' and, curiously, using openly racial and gender based language and discrimination to demonize one group and one group only namely white men.
That this discourse is not only 'socially acceptable' but the norm in western nations is down to the truimph of the left in hi-jacking the cultural life of western nations - and a complete loss of confidence and fight in white males.

Anonymous said...

A $99 DNA test from 23andme will tell whether 'Maria' has any Gypsy blood at all - Gypsy DNA sequences are unique and can be readily distinguished from that of Europeans - basically Gypsies have matches with Indians in the 23andme database, and Europeans, as a rule, do not.

Furthermore, 23andme will show, explicitly, the nations of ancestry of Maria's parents. Also, very likely, it will uncover relatives possibly right up to a 2nd cousin or two.

Anonymous said...

While genetic studies shows that gypsies originated in India, gypsy-acting individuals come in a wide variety of phenotypes.

It's not just gypsy-acting individuals themselves, which would include people like the Irish Travellers, it's the gypsy ethnic group itself i.e. the Roma or Romani ethnic group that can vary from Indian to more European phenotypes.

Anonymous said...

The Irish Travellers are notorious for their tarmac scam. They've apparently made millions from it. Basically they go around offering to reseal people's driveways and stuff, except they just put down some gravel and a thin layer of surface coating which wears off in a couple days after the Travellers have skipped town, leaving a gravel driveway:

http://www.dilloninvestigates.com/2010/02/irish-travellers-rathkeale-hit-italian-french-householders-tarmac-scam/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2041382/Forced-work-tarmac-cowboys-The-British-men-trafficked-abroad-Irish-slave-gangs.html

There are also Irish Traveller international organized crime gangs that operate in Europe, the US, and Australia and make millions.

There are towns in the US that have been warned of Irish Traveller invasions:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Police-in-Ohio-city-warn-of-Irish-Travelers-invasion-120442594.html

"Residents in the Ohio city of Oxford have been warned to prepare for an invasion of Irish Travelers with the ethnic minority depicted in a very poor light by the local media.

According to reports on the Fox Network, the neighborhood of Butler in Oxford is on high alert for an Irish gypsy invasion.

Police and media have warned residents to prepare for a series of potential scams at the hands of the Irish Travelers, described as ‘traditionally nomadic people’."

"Police In Ohio believe many of the Irish Travelers, expected to descend on town in a convoy of between 20 and 30 trucks in the coming weeks, are mere scam merchants.

They have warned locals to beware of Black Top gangs looking to tarmac their drives.

The Fox report also claims that: “The group has several scams they perpetrate on unsuspecting homeowners including, but not limited to black top repair scams, tree cutting scams and meter reader scams.

“The black top scam may consist of taking advantage of consumers by doing cosmetic work and then overcharging for the service.

“In the tree cutting scam, the scam artist may ask the homeowner to show them where the property line is located. The homeowner is then distracted long enough for another group of scam artists to enter the home and steal valuables.

“Some of the Travelers may act like meter readers and gain access to the house. They, too, will distract the victim so another group can enter and steal valuables.”

Police have told senior citizens and other vulnerable members of their community to be alert to the potential scams.

They also advise that door to door soliciting is illegal without a city permit and urge community members not to do business with contractors that go door to door soliciting business without checking with the Oxford Chamber of Commerce or the Better Business Bureau.

Residents are advised to contact the police immediately if the Irish Travelers land on their doorstep."

Anonymous said...

There's actually an Irish Traveller community in the American South that's been in the US since the 19th century but hasn't assimilated. They're apparently very wealthy and secretive. Here's a documentary about them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9eRZbW8Lm8

Anonymous said...

>> Albanians were the number one human traffickers


The Albanians are Muslims. To them, you are a dhimmi. You exist for them to exploit.

The Anti-Gnostic said...

LOL at the link bleating about gypsy hunting-parties (University of Minnesota Center for Holocaust & Genocide Studies).

Penny Al Arrabbiata said...

It seems increasingly probable that they bought this girl or took her off her mother's hands, probably from some woman in Bulgaria, Albania, or even Greece.

Kidnapping leads to manhunts. It's easier to pay troubled women in cash or drugs to take them off their hands. It's quite likely her mother is a drug addict, a prostitute, or suffering from mental illness; or perhaps her mother, too, is a victim of the sex trade. Someone who either can't or won't come forward.

If nothing else, the police could make a plea deal for a reduced sentence in exchange for information leading to the mother. It would be nice if they weren't already bargaining down from a ridiculously low maximum sentence of 10 years.

Anonymous said...

"mostly nonviolent criminal parasitism"

In the case of Irish travellers, one of the reasons the police try to avoid addressing the low-level crime is precisely because of the threat of violence.

Google "Mullingar riots"

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/news_from_ireland/Rioting-Irish-travelers-brought-before-Circuit-Court-in-Mullingar-85346602.html

Or this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5322574/Gypsies-trash-5million-police-helicopter.html

a week later a similar attack destroyed a police helicopter in Birmingham.

Chubby Ape said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Just Do It
Just do, what? Swipe a white kid?


Yes, "Just Do It" is a dangerously open-ended piece of advice. I'm sure the Nike ad men didn't have Gypsy baby snatchers in mind when they came up with that slogan but they have no control over it once it's released on the world. Isn't that one of the biggest problems with liberal consumer capitalism? People who should never be told to "just do it!" are saturated with similar messages from ads, music videos, video games and movies to follow their bliss.

Before our era of mass global consumer capitalism, any stranger going around telling Gypsies to "just do it!" would have been hanged by the local magistrate. Thanks to modern technology, the guy who came up with that Nike slogan is safely somewhere far over the horizon when the Gypsy just did it.

Anonymous said...

"I was once ripped off in a classic gypsy scam by two Caucasians, one of whom looked Armenian or Lebanese, while the boss looked liked a 400-pound version of Danny Devito (yes, he was as charming a sight as that sounds). The woman with them was gypsy-looking, but under the streetlights it was easy for me to assume she was just a run of the mill Mexican."

I think that it really was Danny DeVito and possibly Rhea Perlman that robbed you!

Anonymous said...

I wondered if someone was going to bring up the Traveller Black Top gangs.

My sister-in-law's sister adopted a baby boy that was the spawn of a neighborhood 15-year old girl and a "dangerously handsome" (right, Roissy) stranger. The kid grew up fairly normal, from what I could see the times I saw him at family gatherings: handsome, athletic and personable, but not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He was also a redhead with as Irish a mug as you'll ever see.

During his senior year in high school, the birth father reappeared and made contact. His adoptive parents fell for this guy's line of blarney, and stupidly agreed to allow the boy to spend the summer with his "real" father after graduating, and off they went. He spent the summer traveling all over the Midwest with his father's driveway scammers.

When he returned in the fall, he seemed the same, according to my brother, but some of the things about the trip started to slip out: the whole crew getting arrested a few times, his cellphone (paid by his parents) disappearing and returning at odd times, no money for the work he did, etc.

The upshot of the story is, three years later, the kid has spent time every summer with his Traveller group. He has two kids in different states, a growing rap sheet and a recurring heroin problem that led to a stint in rehab this year. He cut ties with his adoptive parents two years ago, but continues to prey on their generosity.

Genes will out.

d..... said...

Yes, of course it would be possible to determine the girl's ethnicity. We probably won't hear about it, due to the nature of the 24 hour news cycle.

I've been thinking about her ethnicity and I come up blank except for "lots of Northern European genes." Eoes that narrow it down?

One thing is for certain, she's not suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome. that tell us something: a lot of throwaway kids from the former Russian republics do suffer from this. That doesn't mean she isn't Russian or Ukrainian or Moldovan - it just indicates she's not the daughter of some drunk whore.

Volksverhetzer said...

"The Gypsies were not slaves. They were originally from India and moved into Europe by way of Egypt. In fact, "Gypsy" is a derivation of the Greek word "Ehypta", which means Egyptian."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania

The Gypsies were slaves.The Spanish sent any gypsy without an owner to work in the new world.

It is only you English speaking ones, that call them Gypsies. For the rest of us Europeans,they are calles some variant of cigani-tigani, and that mean slaves. Why do you think they are now called the Roma, if their previous name was neutral?

The only question is if the Gypsies came as slaves or voluntary immigrants?

The Gypsies are not the only travelers, the Irish Tinkers are well known, and the rest of N-Europe has Tatters. (Tartars in English?) Scandinavia even had people traveling and living in boats, who they think might be of Lappish origin. (A Sea Sami)

The locals never really liked any of them, but to be fair, the other traveling peoples mostly worked and traded for a living, and do not behave like Gypsies.

The Tatters are by the way the only minority I have talked to, where they might admit that they were not always nice to the locals, so that the locals had a real reason to dislike them. As one of them told me, if your children are hungry, you steal food. You however did it with a but, because you could only steal from the "enemies" and not from the "friends" of the Tatters, something a Tatter could read from their own secret roadsigns system.

Anonymous said...

Steve,

Didn't you call this Freikorps Freakout Syndrome in the past? It certainly bears all the hallmarks of "If white people notice some minorities doing bad things, we're all going to be soap Moishe!" that neurotic jews love to believe.

Anonymous said...

For a sympathetic look at Victorian Romany culture in the UK (I think they'd been separate from European gypsies for a long time) see the works of George Borrow, a Victorian linguist and autodidact who loved them, travelled with them and visited them whenever he could.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Borrow

His works Lavengro and the Romany Rye (Rye = gentleman) are all about the culture, but lots of his other works feature encounters. In "Wild Wales" the differences between Irish Tinkers and Romanies are described most entertainingly. He also met Spanish gypsies, described in The Bible In Spain.

All available on Gutenberg.

Volksverhetzer said...

"(I think they'd been separate from European gypsies for a long time)"

What proof is it for the Gypsies and the Tinkers sharing the same origin, instead of some kind of parallel cultural adaptation to the same economic niche?

From what I have read, the tinkers seem more like a bad version of the Tatters in the rest of N-Europe.

PS. Thanks for the book tips.

BB753 said...

Physically, Eastern European Gypsies range in looks from 100% E. European -looking, to Bangladeshi-looking, both in terms of pigmentation and facial features. Most fall somewhere in between.To American eyes, some light-skinned Gypsies might fall off the radar but Europeans, who are more familiar with them, can tell most of the time. Pigmentation and features do not always agree.
Personally I wouldn´t have given this girl a second look, because her features are IMHO Balkanic (either Albanian or Serbian or Bulgarian). Pigmentation is a fluke, as I said. And Gypsies tend to pick up features from their neighbours, either from Gadje males who join them or non-paternal events (cuckoldry). Gypsies also used to engage in prostitution, so it might be another source of European genes inflow in their genepool.They seem to prefer pimping other people´s women today.

As to kidnapping, it must have been bigger in the past, because every European child used to be warned about Gypsies from a young age: keep away from Gypsies, son! They could be the original source for the Boogeymen or Sack Men. Kidnapping was also a likely source of European gene infusion.
Lice and disease were also a source of concern when Gypsies showed up at European towns,and parents warned us about that too.
The above is also largely true of Southern Gypsies or gitanos/gitans. More or less 10 % of them are indistinguishible from Spaniards/Portuguese or even Frenchmen (some migrated north o the Pyrenees), but the rest are easy to tell for natives. I once saw a red-headed Gypsy boy, who was 100 % "caló". "Gitanos" are slighty better adapted than their "Romanichel" cousins to their host societies, but that´s not saying much, given the latter´s dysfunctional communities. Gitanos deal with scrap metals, sell dubious stuff at local markets, and do small larcenies for a living. Some gypsy clans are major drug dealers, usually of heroin or hashish. Gadje (Payo, the Spanish equivalet) lives and property are meaningless to them. Even Moroccans are rightly terrified of them. Gypsies routinely riot when Africans encroach upon their territory.And they seem less nomadic now than their northern cousins, because they have learned to take full advantage of the welfare system (free accommodation and medicine). British Gypsies also seem to be settling down.
Of course the tragedy is having Romanian/Bulgarian Gypsies roaming everywhere in the EU, due to Schengen. Some of them are even Muslim!
You don´t want any of them closer than a thousand miles. Too bad humane deportation to their ancestral home, Rajasthan in India, is not an option! Nobody will miss them.

Anonymous said...

It's easier to pay troubled women in cash or drugs to take them off their hands. It's quite likely her mother is a drug addict, a prostitute, or suffering from mental illness; or perhaps her mother, too, is a victim of the sex trade.

Or maybe she's just some child-hating bitch who should have been sterilized at age 10.

tommy shanks said...

I can remember stories and a few warnings about being stolen by gypsies, as a child growing up in the '70s in New Jersey. For example, my mother would tell me to come inside after dark, because "You don't want the gypsies to steal you!"

My parents' grandparents were European immigrants, so maybe it was a bit of Old World folklore that persisted through the generations.

David said...

"Just Do It"

Burger King ads from the '80s or early '90s (I forget which) advised its impressionable patrons to:

"BREAK ALL THE RULES"

Gypsies: My parents threatened me a few times with the line, "We'll sell you to the gypsies." They said their parents had used the same line on them. I had also read about that line several times in school (either in stories or history, I forget). Part of common folklore, I thought. (East Tennessee, white Appalachian people)

Anonymous said...

The more bitterly nationalist Irish will tell you to this day and with great emphasis that the Irish Travellers are the descendants of the inhabitants of entire villages (the more enthusiastic will say "whole counties") which were cleared by Cromwell's armies in the 17th Century.
Who knows, they might be right.
When I lived in Ireland back in the mid '80s I once drove into a Traveller's site. I was lost and rolled down the car's window to ask the children scampering about how to get back onto the main road. In the event, they actually knew, but what I remember was the unbelievable smell of seven and eight year old kids who, it was suddenly clear, had never taken a bath in their lives.
Sweet it was, but sickly, like rotting fruit. I kept the window rolled down for the next five miles.

Anonymous said...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/10396633/Irish-police-find-blonde-haired-blue-eyed-girl-in-Dublin-Roma-camp.html

Just a coincidence.

Anonymous said...

The more bitterly nationalist Irish will tell you to this day and with great emphasis that the Irish Travellers are the descendants of the inhabitants of entire villages (the more enthusiastic will say "whole counties") which were cleared by Cromwell's armies in the 17th Century.

I doubt it. Old Adolph Slobodan Kromwell wouldn't have let anyone survive his ethnic cleansings.

Anonymous said...

I doubt it. Old Adolph Slobodan Kromwell wouldn't have let anyone survive his ethnic cleansings.

You're confusing him with Kween Viktoria Mary Margaret Whitehouse-Thatcher, who dropped 39,253 HIV-infested plastic daffodils on Ireland.

Svigor said...

Fwiw, theauthor of McMafia, Misha Glenny a BBC journslist wrote that the Albanians were the number one human traffickers and Gypsies #2.

Destination, the Gulf. Of course those were far older girls and women. Mostly Eastern European. Given the young age I would suspect Western European pervs particularly the Belgians who had a nasty child sex slavery scandal with pols and security service people involved, allegedly. That serms to be the market for blonde tots.


Israel's a hub for sex slavery and human trafficking, too. I believe the State Dept's term is "destination country." Have they outlawed human trafficking there, yet? Last I heard, they were mulling creating a law for that. If they have a law now, the ink's still pretty fresh. In any case, they were only recently removed from the category of countries with the worst problem and the least cooperation with international anti-trafficking efforts. Very progressive, those Israelis.

Lefty Lawyer said...

Reminds me that what used to be called the US Customs service had a leaflet for Americans travelling abroad called "Know Before You Go." It in fact still exists, now published by CBP. The former version of the leaflet (I think back in the '70s) used to have a specific and presumably helpful warning to watch out for gypsy children. While this is still good advice, for whatever reason the US government has decided to stop giving that advice.

Svigor said...

Also in the 16th century began the "gypsy hunts." Not unlike a fox hunt, the Gypsies were rounded up and hunted for sport. This savage practice was prevalent in Switzerland, in Holland up to the 18th century and reaching as far as Denmark. No crime needed to have been committed by these people in order for them to be incarcerated or hunted down like animals.

In 1589 the King of Denmark decreed that any leader of a Gypsy band was to be sentenced to death. Honors and rewards were given to those who would participate in Gypsy hunts and capture them. These hunts continued as late as the 19th century.

A great Gypsy hunt covering four districts of Jutland took place on November 11, 1835. The day brought in a bag of over 260 men, women and children.


In the late 20th century, police routinely harassed blacks for wearing baggy pants and loose, un-tucked shirts. This savage practice was prevalent in the United States. No crime need to have been committed by these people for them to be harassed and incarcerated.

In the 21st century, evil race realists suggested that the fact that the near-ubiquity of baggy pants and loose, un-tucked shirts among blacks throughout the late 20th century was evidence that the savage practice did not impose enough of a burden to induce blacks to change their dress habits, and therefore was likely not much of a burden on the black population as a whole. They also suggested that the fact that the nomadic gypsies continued to live in Switzerland, Holland, and Denmark throughout the years the "savage practice" was prevalent suggests that it was not likely much of a burden on the gypsy population in these areas.

When people feel unwelcome, they leave, unless they're in your house for some nefarious purpose.

ATBOTL said...

"For example, the great Russian novelists like Tolstoy were fascinated by how Christian Cossacks, typically Slavic serfs who had run off to the Southern frontier, took on the horse-based culture of their Muslim enemies like the Chechens."

Woah, getting confused here. Chechens are mountain people, they don't have a free ranging, horse based culture. Ukrainians have had a free ranging horse based culture since the neolithic era when their ancestors domesticated the horse.

gloria said...

""For example, the great Russian novelists like Tolstoy were fascinated by how Christian Cossacks, typically Slavic serfs who had run off to the Southern frontier, took on the horse-based culture of their Muslim enemies like the Chechens."

Woah, getting confused here. Chechens are mountain people, they don't have a free ranging, horse based culture. Ukrainians have had a free ranging horse based culture since the neolithic era when their ancestors domesticated the horse".

That is so true. The "horse based" cultures have nothing to do with Islam, except circumstantially perhaps. The Arabs did get very into their horses in the Saudi peninsula, but other than than horses were functional and owned or ridden by very few in the general population. OTOH, the tribes that roamed Cental Asia (Avars, Huns, etc.), settled in what is now the Ukraine and parts of Russia and eastern Europe, and continued to raise horses with special feeling. I remember reading about Hungarians and their horses--special bond.
Alsom, Gypsies were overwhelmingly horse traders in the old days, picking it up from the host countries where they roamed the longest. I'm told that's why they went into used car dealing. They were naturals for it.

AnotherDad said...

“For the NYT to drop its obsession with white oppression of gypsies …”

EU enlargement and Schengen have put the gypsies into play. No way around it.

And what is super important to our overlords, is that the gypsies don’t get folks to start thinking about minorities, outside the narrative—minority parasitism.

The reality is that when indoctrinated one’s whole life with the narrative, it’s actually hard to think clearly about minorities, particularly about high-skilled well behaved minorities. If you brain has been stewed, it takes some level of IQ and knowledge to understand that even high-skilled *endogamous* minorities are bad for their host societies. They occupy positions in the economy that otherwise natives would take—learn to take—and impede the acquisition of capital, skills and skill-positive genetic traits in the host population. It’s very clear—once you see it—that endogamous minorities are essentially always parasitic. And that majorities have very good practical reasons to oppose infiltration. (If you look around, high latitude, majority (non-diverse) societies—e.g. Japan, Korea, Norway, Sweden, Scandinavia generally, etc.—produce very nice places to live. Under evolutionary pressure competence has risen and the population is competent, capable with high social trust. Some of these places have become quite a bit less nice once minorities were allowed in.)

But indeed … you have to have the IQ and the knowledge to *see it*.

The problem with the gypsies is that *anyone* can see it. It’s minority parasitism writ in big bold letters. Anyone’s entirely rational reaction is “We need to keep these people away from us!” “Keep them out of our society!” In fact, there really isn’t any alternative rational thought.

And once people are allowed think such things … they may start thinking generally. Can’t have that!

Anonymous said...

Remember that many of the mountain peoples at one time occupied a much greater range and more varied terrain. The Chechens, Circassians, and Armenians were all victims of religion-based genocide, for example. (OTref, now I have "One Tin Soldier" running through my head.) So it is very possible that they had been more free-ranging and horse-based in the past.

Horses are useful for nearly all terrain, except possibly arctic and jungle ones. But the type of horses best suited to open plains are not the same as for mountains. Size, power, speed, agility, hardiness - all tradeoffs.

Anonymous said...

What's up with the male Gypsy in that picture? Is he stoned? Seriously, Zombies in THE WALKING DEAD look more alive and alert then he does.

Btw, I know a Romanian women, a dear friend for many years. Nicest and kindest person I have ever met. One day, quite by chance, the subject of Gypsies came up in the conversation. Apparently Romania has a lot of them, which I did not then know. You should have seen her reaction. Never saw such hatred and bitterness come out of anyone in my life! It made an impression on me. I had to wonder how bad they must be to provoke such vileness from such a decent person.

Anonymous said...

"It used to be the job of the King to protect his subjects, and if hunting Gypsies for sport was what that was needed to keep them away, it is quite understandable."

No it isn't. It's utterly stupid lying anti-white propaganda.

Anonymous said...

"My sister-in-law's sister adopted a baby boy that was the spawn of a neighborhood 15-year old girl and a "dangerously handsome" (right, Roissy) stranger."

Why don't you game people notice all the critical facts like the word FIFTEEN.

Your "alpha" males primarily chase very young, naive girls because that's who it mainly works on.

Cail Corishev said...

Yes, 30-year-old women never chase bad boys. They're totally mature and immune to game.

Keep telling yourself that.

d..... said...

Is Sailer writing for The Speccie under a pseudonym?

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/edwest/2013/10/blonde-children-and-roma-when-the-two-great-hysterias-of-our-age-clash/

"We just live in a society where it’s impolite to notice social patterns, yet one where it’s the police’s job to look out for them; to hone all those evolution-bred skills to notice when something doesn’t quite fit, like the wrong person in the wrong place or a child with someone very unlikely to be her birth or adoptive parents."

Dutch Boy said...

Mystery solved: the child is the spawn of Bulgarian Roma in Greece (shows what a physical transformation generations of child stealing can work in a Roma family).