So, it turns out that Michelle is exactly how you expected her to be. The Power of Stereotypes is validated once again!"But Michelle could also frustrate her supervisors. Quincy White, the partner who helped recruit Michelle and who headed the marketing group, remembers finding her a challenge to manage. White, who is now retired from the firm, says he gave her the most interesting work he could find, in part because he wanted to see her advance, but also because she seemed perennially dissatisfied.
She was, White recalls, "quite possibly the most ambitious associate that I've ever seen." She wanted significant responsibility right away and was not afraid to object if she wasn't getting what she felt she deserved, he says.
At big firms, much of the work that falls to young associates involves detail and tedium. There were all sorts of arcane but important rules about what could and could not be said or done in product advertisements, and in the marketing group, all the associates, not just the new ones, reviewed scripts for TV commercials to make sure they conformed. As far as associate work goes, it could have been worse -- "Advertising is a little sexier than spending a full year reading depositions in an antitrust law suit or reviewing documents for a big merger," says White -- but it was monotonous and relatively low-level.
Too monotonous for Michelle, who, White says, complained that the work he gave her was unsatisfactory. He says he gave her the Coors beer ads, which he considered one of the more glamorous assignments they had. Even then, he says, "she at one point went over my head and complained [to human resources] that I wasn't giving her enough interesting stuff, and the person came down to my office and said, 'Basically she's complaining that she's being treated like she's a second-year associate,' and we agreed that she was a second-year associate. I had eight or nine other associates, and I couldn't start treating one of them a lot better."
White says he talked to Michelle about her expectations, but the problem could not be resolved because the work was what it was. He is not sure any work he had would have satisfied her. "I couldn't give her something that would meet her sense of ambition to change the world."
"Not many people went over my head," says White. It was an unusual move for a young associate to make, and he believes it was consistent with her personality. She "wanted something that pushed her harder. Waiting five to seven years to make partner was a good career move for me but not for [her]. There are too many other opportunities out there that mature faster than that."
Abner Mikva, a former congressman and federal judge who is close to the Obamas and was an early mentor to Barack, finds that account of Michelle's 20-something impatience amusing. "It doesn't surprise me at all," he says."
By the way, it apparently took Michelle two tries to pass the easy Illinois Bar Exam (81% pass rate), because she wasn't admitted to the Illinois Bar until almost a year after her graduation from Harvard Law School, while her smart husband was admitted to the Illinois Bar only a half year after graduation.
My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer
Posts
91 comments:
>>>>"quite possibly the most ambitious associate that I've ever seen."
A word for ambition with no ability...unhappy.
>>>>I wasn't giving her enough interesting stuff
I wrinkle my nose at the notion that things are "given" to us. I like to think stuff is earned. Silly me.
What kind of Pit Bull will the Obamas get Mahlia and Sasha?
Yea, all that ambition. I hope she has the brains and skill, not to mention the character, to go with it. Otherwise there will only be pain and disappointed felt by those around her as she "changes the world". We’ve had about 15-20 years of pushy younger generation types showing us that the traditional way of working your way up through discipline, consistency and production does not work. The outcome has been not so spectacular. It’s obvious that the old ways were superior but of course it does not appeal to all these ambitious new mulatto elites. No wonder, it did not even appeal to the white elites.
This says something positive about Obama. He sticks by his wife, even though she's a shrew and there are hundreds of thousands of hot young women he could have.
Hmm, a corporate lawyer, who is unhappy practicing corporate law. What is so surprising or enlighting about that? Unlike Yale Law School, which is geared more for the people who want to teach, work in the government, and/or become judges, Harvard Law highly encourages most of its students to go out into the corporate world, and the job dissatisfaction there is tremendous, which is most lawyers eventually get out of Big Law, and go find more rewarding work and hours somewhere else.
Not being happy with what she was doing at the Law firm doesn't make Michelle a monster, it makes her a human being, because not many people are happy at big law firms. It's good that she recognized that sooner rather than later.
Failing a bar exam - that's another resemblance to Hellary.
So she went to law school, took the bar exam, went to work as a lawyer, and found the work boring. This is not exactly breaking news to a lot of people who have done the very same thing.
This is yet another demonstration of one of the most odious aspects of affirmative action: the notion that if you're a member of a protected class you don't have to pay your dues like everyone else.
"By the way, it apparently took Michelle two tries to pass the easy Illinois Bar Exam (81% pass rate), because she wasn't admitted to the Illinois Bar until almost a year after her graduation from Harvard Law School,"
AAAAAhhh grasshopper...to assume makes an ASS out of U.
Not just the power of stereotypes, but the power of testosterone. Just look at Mrs. Obama-- she looks rather like an East German female trackstar from 1988. Even if you ignore her vee-shaped body and hulking muscles, her craggy face indicates a high androgen level in her youth.
I do not think Michelle Obama is doping. I think she is naturally on the far left tail of the female testosterone bell curve. However, she is reported to exercise a lot, which likely suppresses her estrogen production and leaves her even more testosterone-poisoned.
All those "cute" stories about how Michelle Obama dominates Barack at home don't surprise me much. I think behind the oh-how-cute misdirection lies a really scrappy attitude of Michelle's.
What stereotype does Michelle conform to by being very ambitious about assignments and demanding about getting better work from her supervisors? The stereotype of how to have a shot at succeeding wildly in life? As for being admitted to the bar one year after graduation, I think that's pretty normal for people who passed the bar exam on the first try. You usually have to be super fast with your paperwork for a shot at getting sworn in less than a year after graduating law school.
I'm not saying that you don't have any valid points (I agree Obama seems much smarter than Michelle), I'm just saying that ambition and assertiveness is probably separable from intelligence and is its own indicator of future success. Also, I don't think she's so unintelligent that she'd be likely to fail the Illinois bar exam on the first try (even really bad law schools in New York have high bar passage rates for example, and Michelle's likely smarter than the typical graduates from those schools).
http://www.hopeanon.typepad.com
Don't judge bar passage based on time until admittance. All sorts of factors can come into play- I passed the New York Bar the first time, and had to wait until ten months after graduation to be admitted. (Graduate in May, exam at the end of July, results known only in November, submissions, interviews, scheduling, nothing in February...March swearing in date.)
Then again, Illinois may be different- I don't think any New Yorker would get it in only six months.
Black women are the most difficult employees. This is a known and notorious fact in the hiring world. You can't fire them. They aren't employees. They are black women who collect a paycheck. They also make their "colleagues" lives a living hell, because you dare not cross them.
She must have been absolute hell to work around.
This says something positive about Obama. He sticks by his wife, even though she's a shrew and there are hundreds of thousands of hot young women he could have.
A hot young woman, especially a white one, is not nearly as valuable to a mullato candidate during the Democratic primary season as a bossy black woman.
"Concerned said...
Black women are the most difficult employees."
In my experience difficult employees are either very intelligent people who are bored, or people in way over their heads. Usually the latter since intelligent employees can assess a situation and either settle down for the ride by keeping themselves busy, or make a move somewhere more interesting. Usually difficult personnel are ambitions but lack the ability.
She has a noticeably stumpier index finger than, say, Sarah Palin.
For women, a long index finger suggests more exposure to estrogen in womb and translates into fertility. A short index finger suggests more testosterone while in womb and indicates higher probability of homosexuality and slightly better verbal IQ.
More here:
http://www.viewzone.com/fingers.html
Here is a story about a black female Harvard law school grad who was an editor of the Harvard law review. The details from this news report would indicate that not only did she have a Michelle Obama like chip on her shoulder, but she also lacked professional ability.
http://www.law.com/jsp/law/LawArticleFriendly.jsp?id=1196935479196
Judge Rejects Race Bias Suit Against DLA Piper
Anthony Lin
New York Law Journal
12-07-2007
A Manhattan federal judge has thrown out a race discrimination suit brought against DLA Piper by a former associate who claimed the firm’s New York office was a hostile work environment.
Charlene Morisseau, a 2001 graduate of Harvard Law School, where she was a law review editor, joined DLA Piper as a litigation associate in April 2003 but was asked to leave less than a year later. In a lawsuit filed last year, Morisseau, who is black, claimed her firing was retaliation for complaints she had made about discriminatory treatment.
She requested almost $250 million in damages from the firm and the 11 partners she individually named in the suit.
But Southern District of New York Judge Lewis Kaplan granted summary judgment to the firm Monday, finding that DLA Piper had put forth a “legitimate, non-discriminatory reason for plaintiff’s termination.”
“Here, the uncontradicted evidence demonstrates that plaintiff did not perform in a manner satisfactory to Piper notwithstanding her academic credentials,” the judge wrote. “She was a confrontational, stubborn, and insubordinate employee in an environment in which professional personal relations, flexibility and a willingness to accept supervision were essential.”
The judge deemed DLA Piper’s account of events admitted because Morisseau, proceeding pro se after firing her lawyers in April, did not timely file a declaration opposing the firm’s summary judgment motion, though she had been granted a number of extensions. Instead, Kaplan said he had only belatedly received from Morisseau via Federal Express “three volumes of purported exhibits” that he said were not authenticated and lacked exhibit tabs or a table of contents.
The judge said he would not consider any further submissions from Morisseau, who he said had previously “defied court orders, ignored schedules, failed to show up for or obstructed her deposition, and filed frivolous applications.”
“She has no claim to any further indulgence,” Kaplan wrote in his order in Morisseau v. DLA Piper, 06 Civ. 13255.
Morisseau did not return a call seeking comment, but she responded to the judge’s Monday decision by electronically filing an opposition to DLA Piper’s summary judgment motion Tuesday, stating in it that she had sent a hard copy to Kaplan along with the three volumes of documents. The opposition’s caption also indicated the forum as the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, rather than the Southern District.
Morisseau claimed partners at the firm discriminated against her by treating her differently than they treated white associates. In particular, she claimed partner Douglas Rappaport tried to blame her for a mistake he allegedly made in the course of representing a widow in a proceeding before the September 11th Victim Compensation Fund. She also accused former partner Aaron Katz of giving her writing skills subpar rankings on a performance review and then refusing to provide feedback justifiying his review of her work. She said both partners also disparaged her in hallway conversations as “too aggressive” and “not right for a law firm.”
Morisseau claims she complained to the firm’s human resources department in March 2004 about what she perceived to be a hostile work environment. She said she believed Katz’s review of her writing skills showed that the firm was holding black associates to a higher standard than white associates.
1. The following month, Morisseau was allegedly summoned to a meeting with Joseph Finnerty III, the firm’s New York litigation head, where she was given a choice of correcting her insubordinate behavior or resigning from the firm. She refused to resign, demanding an investigation of her discrimination complaints, and was subsequently terminated.
PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR
But in court filings, DLA Piper denied treating Morisseau differently and said the firm had taken action because the ex-associate had exhibited a pattern of unacceptable behavior, including yelling at partners and throwing one out of her office.
The firm said Morisseau ordered former partner Marilla Ochis to “back up” out of her office after Ochis had come to discuss an e-mail exchange Morisseau had apparently taken offense to. In that exchange Ochis had told Morisseau not to be overly concerned with providing constant updates on ongoing matters but recognize that new matters might take precedence.
“The world would be a nicer place if we could all keep our ducks in a row,” Ochis had written, “but if the job were that easy, anyone could do it!”
Morisseau replied the next day that she found the last part of Ochis’ message “extremely unnecessary.” Ochis said she went to Morisseau’s office to explain that she had not meant anything offensive by her e-mail.
According to the firm, Morisseau initially refused an assignment relating to the Victim Compensation Fund by Rappaport and later raised her voice at him in a hallway confrontation over that assignment. Morisseau was also allegedly rude to partner Heidi Levine, her designated mentor. In one instance, the firm said, Morisseau did not respond to a hello by Levine and, when the partner began to ask a question, the associate put her hand up in a stopping motion and said, “Heidi, goodbye.”
The firm also said the review of her writing ability by Katz was largely positive and complimentary, ranking her abilities at the second-highest level in most categories and the highest in a few. The firm also noted that several other associates received the same overall score on the review as Morisseau and that a white associate was among those who scored lower. The firm also denied Morisseau’s claim that she was the only black associate in the firm’s New York office at the time.
Plevan said Thursday the firm now has 40 minority associates in New York, 18 of whom are black. She said the firm had made every effort to improve diversity in all of its office.
BAR ADMISSION
Morisseau had also accused the firm of interfering with her subsequent efforts to be admitted to the New York Bar. Though she had taken and passed the bar exam in 2001, she was not admitted until 2005, a delay she claimed was caused by further retaliatory action by the firm.
The delay to her bar admission is also at issue in a discrimination and retaliation suit Morisseau has brought in federal court in Atlanta against the employer she worked for prior to joining DLA Piper. After graduating from Harvard Law, Morisseau initially worked for the Southern Center for Human Rights, the group led by well-known death penalty appellate lawyer Stephen B. Bright.
In an affidavit Bright submitted for Morisseau’s New York Bar application, he said she “appears unable to separate reality and fantasy” and detailed “vicious attacks” and “false allegations of outrageous conduct” she had made against many of the Center’s lawyers and staff, all while “making virtually no contribution to the Center’s work in the eight months she was here.”
“All this reflects very poorly on the professional qualifications of Morisseau to practice law,” Bright wrote in his September 2004 affidavit. The Southern Center is also seeking summary judgment against Morisseau.
Agree with the Anonymous above. That Michelle wasn't admitted immediately doesn't prove she didn't pass.
I passed the NY Bar on the first try and wasn't admitted until almost a year after I got my results. It can take time to get your paperwork, and there are only a few swearing-in slots per year.
Furthermore, working at a large, corporate firm, there is no particular incentive to get admitted quickly, since you won't be going to court or signing papers for several years anyway.
can someone explain to my why ambition is a positive in the case of Sarah Palin, yet such a horrible negative in the case of Michelle Obama?
Michelle seems like the typical affirmative action baby. She expects everything, but does not want to work for it.
If Michelle Obama looked more Beyonce, Gov Patterson's wife or I, would you and the others would have the same level hate for her.
NO
Anonymous said...
Michelle seems like the typical affirmative action baby. She expects everything, but does not want to work for it.
SMH
Did you take the time to read the post? Her former manager said Michelle was eager for challenging work.
truth saidcan someone explain to my why ambition is a positive in the case of Sarah Palin, yet such a horrible negative in the case of Michelle Obama?
Truth, Michelle Obama stepped out of her place when she dared ask for more challenging (not less or easier) work.
You usually have to be super fast with your paperwork for a shot at getting sworn in less than a year after graduating law school.
Apparently, New York is different, but elsewhere you get your bar results three months after the test, and you get sworn in within the next week.
I got sworn in on May 31, 4 days after graduation, with the unexpected consequence that I was charged a full year of dues for one day.
The passage you posted confirms that Michelle is an ambitious woman who likes challenges. How does it in any way suggest that she is an angry black woman or a lazy affirmative action token? And people say that you are a racist. I can't imagine why.
Did you take the time to read the post? Her former manager said Michelle was eager for challenging work.
Spoken like someone who's not used to working. From the article:
quite possibly the most ambitious associate that I've ever seen." She wanted significant responsibility right away and was not afraid to object if she wasn't getting what she felt she deserved, he says.
So she wanted responsibility she wasn't entitled to due to her status as a junior associate. She wanted special treatment without having earned it. She also went over her manager's head to HR. Big no-no without a SIGNIFICANT grievance OTHER THAN being treated like a junior associate. She was simply a malcontent:
but also because she seemed perennially dissatisfied...
"If she looked like beyonce...would you and the others would have the same level hate for her.
NO"
beyonce? That light-skinned black lady with the Chinese woman's dyed hair glued to her scalp?
The sight of her parading around in those commercials with that demented look that makes you wonder if she momentarily thinks she grew that long, silky, golden hair all by herself...This is the blonde "bombshell" of our times and she actually makes me want to puke. I don't hate her. I loathe her. She evokes that queasy feel in everyone except females of her color who also want to spend thousands of dollars a year gluing another race's hair to their heads and pretending they could of grown it themselves. That's ok, I know they're proud to be black, but they should just admit they want to look like they are no more than 1/8 black.
and yes--whites obsessed with tanning are pretty weird too.
Mrs. O. does at least seem to wear her own racial features, with reasonable and perfunctory modification.
This probably doesn't apply to her, but generally black women who wear their hair more or less "natural" or with only a perfunctory straightening, are often the most comfortable with themselves, the most focused on their jobs and least self-absorbed. The more the hair is taken from its natural state, the more goofy and self-absorbed the woman. This goes for whites, but "taken from its natural state" has a different connotation with different races. Somebody ought to do a thesis on this phenomenon.
Black women are the most difficult employees. This is a known and notorious fact in the hiring world. You can't fire them. They aren't employees. They are black women who collect a paycheck. They also make their "colleagues" lives a living hell, because you dare not cross them.
Yup, and the physically large, sullen, resentful Negress is a very common type in Washington DC. Now there's one more of them, yaay!
salon observer- Some here prefer Beyonce's glued on hair to Michelle's natural hair.
He sticks by his wife, even though she's a shrew and there are hundreds of thousands of hot young women he could have.
Could?
"So she wanted responsibility she wasn't entitled to due to her status as a junior associate."
So did Einstein, if he didn't he would have died on pension after a happy 40-year career with the Swiss patent office.
"she actually makes me want to puke. I don't hate her. I loathe her."
Brother, and I say this with the utmost possible respect, if you spend this much energy hating a random celebrity, it may be time to find a suitable hobby...or a charitable outlet for your time.
There is a world of difference between an ambitious person who seeks greater responsibility and a perennially dissastisfied individual who feels that they aren't getting WHAT THEY DESERVE.
On any number of high powered black law blogs I have heard an oft repeated refrain that whites don't know what it is like to be passed over for someone less qualified.
In reality, if the breakdown of a corporation is 85% to 9% [white to black][make up your own numbers], the reality is that FAR more whites have been passed over BUT they don't have the luxury of blaming skin color. The reality is that most whites accept that the insider track network is a fact of life.
The First Lady who found she couldn't have it all - a new biography on Michelle Obama reveals her cruel awakening
"If Michelle Obama looked more Beyonce, Gov Patterson's wife or I..."
Actually, "or me" would have been grammatically correct there, Chic Noir. And Beyonce has legs like tree trunks, btw. A more attractive black woman singer (who appears to wear her own hair) is Rihanna.
- Fred
Truth:
Palin fans are partial toward her because she's Republican and good-looking. Her being white doesn't hurt, but wouldn't endear her to this crowd without the two prerequisites (the first being the more important of the two). On the other hand, can you imagine lovefest if Palin were Republican, good-looking, and *black*? Obama would have nothing on this Messia-ess.
Anyway, I don't think Palin fans make up a majority of Steve readers, an eclectic group that is often torn between conservative populism and IQ elitism. The dislike for Michelle seems universal, however. Why? Look at my prerequisites again. She's the second coming of Hillary in that regard, and at a time when Hillary has been mellowing somewhat.
Chic Noir:
You look like a far more pleasant person than Michelle! Any ambitious person should know that that is an asset. Now if you are a Republican...
Palin came up on her own without the help of Affirmative Action.
Michelle Obama: admitted to Princeton merely because she was Black, and while there wrote her thesis on how she wanted to live a separate life from Whites and her dislike of Whites. Admitted to Harvard Law because she was Black. Hired at a BigLaw firm because she was Black, and treated with kid gloves when she balked at doing the routine, boring, monotonous stuff first year associates are required to do ... because she was Black.
Palin: knocked around, earning money, going to school, earning money, going to school, at no prestigious University with a free ride. She was the wrong skin color: the Majority. Had ZILCH connections. Married a blue collar guy. Rose to first Mayor, then a Oil funds commissioner, resigned in protest over corruption and won office against entrenched corrupt officials of both parties, in the Governor's race.
With NO CONNECTIONS. Republicans like her because she is like them: White, no connections, no privileges, the first fired and last hired, having to be BETTER than the privileged minorities or connected elites (who basically only have to be minimally incompetent to get promoted).
Michelle Obama was basically, as Steve has documented, a rain-maker partner of husband Barack, hired by University of Chicago as a back-door bribe the way Hillary was with Rose Law for Bill when he was Governor of Arkansas. She wasn't hired on merit. By contrast Todd Palin quit his job he'd held for 17 years with an oil company when it became a conflict of interest with his Governor wife Sarah Palin.
Michelle Obama is the portrait of the angry, resentful, incompetent, over-reaching, Affirmative Action hire or admit. That's probably the view most Whites have of professional class Blacks, a pity since Military Vets are almost universally highly skilled and uber-professional, particularly Navy vets who have to be good (or the ship sinks or people die).
As for attractiveness, Beyonce? Please. Nor Alien Princess Rhianna. Sanaa Lathan, on the other hand! Men of all races took a poll and found themselves 100% in favor of her. With all precincts reporting. Michelle Obama's personality does not help (think "24's" "Sherry Palmer" on steroids) but her face and body are not attractive. No matter how much the magazines try to tell us she is.
And Beyonce has legs like tree trunks
And I for one find that quite attractive, just imagine those wrapped round you!
Rhianna's hair is, I suspect, not quite all her own. Like Beyonce, she is held up as a paragon of black beauty. Like Beyonce, she is not of entirely African origin. From which branch of the family do those good looks primarily derive?
Truth said...
"So she wanted responsibility she wasn't entitled to due to her status as a junior associate."
So did Einstein, if he didn't he would have died on pension after a happy 40-year career with the Swiss patent office.
Wow, from Michelle Obama to Einstein in one post! Looks like Obama's "victory" has really gotten to the heads of the African community. Just as an aside: Most of the math that Einstein used came from David Hilbert, who was asked by Einstein to do the heavy lifting. But of course he was just a German goy, so the media conveniently blotted him out. Einstein is so overrated, just like Michelle or Obama.
testing99,
I have to agree with you on everything you wrote except for Sanaa Lathan, whoever that is. I did not even bother to google her. I prefer European babes. Nice bodies, european features and usually good brains with non-AA education. Why all western males are running after mulattos and middle easterners is beyond me.
AA is out of control. Before it was an expensive nuisance meant to buy off the raucous Third World component of western societies. Now its being used to push for non-European rule of the Western world. There is no historic or sociological argument for this. The only reason is the lust for power and self-aggrandizement of liberals. Foreigners of course get lots of money out of this scam.
Michelle is ambitious, but without a lot of help she would have gotten nowhere on her own. In her own mind, of course, she was born to be superior to all the little people, of whatever race or class.
Two flaming narcissists in the same family! And Michelle claims that Barack only knows how to talk! Who do you thing does most of the talking behind closed bedroom doors? Probably not Barack.
Leaving aside her pushy character, what if she got that "significant responsibility" and screwed up? Would he fire her? Not likely, given who she was. So it’s responsibility without consequences. Nice.
"Michelle Obama: admitted to Princeton merely because she was Black, and while there wrote her thesis on how she wanted to live a separate life from Whites and her dislike of Whites. Admitted to Harvard Law because she was Black. Hired at a BigLaw firm because she was Black, and treated with kid gloves when she balked at doing the routine, boring, monotonous stuff first year associates are required to do ... because she was Black."
Where is the proof of any of this? Not saying it isn't possible, but where is the proof?
"Palin: knocked around,"
That would be charitable, when was the last time the VP of the US attended two separate junior colleges?
"earning money,"
How do you know she didn't just take out a bunch of loans?
"Had ZILCH connections."
Yes, and like most people with ZILCH connection, practically nothing in life until she was 42. At which point she was the beneficiary of A.A. She is a woman you know!
Tell me, who's more competent Romney, Paul, Giuliani or Palin? What don't they have in common?
"Michelle Obama is the portrait of the angry, resentful, incompetent, over-reaching,..."
Over reaching; that's a synonym for 'hard-working' isn't it?
"That's probably the view most Whites have of professional class Blacks,"
I wouldn't put most whites on the same train you're on.
"a pity since Military Vets are almost universally highly skilled and uber-professional,"
Except the A.A's who graduate at the bottom of their class, run into constant reprimands, are reputed to have killed 144 of their shipmates, get captured and squeal like newborn babies with messy diapers.
"particularly Navy vets who have to be good (or the ship sinks or people die)."
The ship did sink, or shall I say the plane crashed; FIVE times!
") but her face and body are not attractive."
What first lady do you consider 'attractive'? Hillary Clinton? Barbara Bush?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Barbara_Bush
Pat Nixon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_
Nixon
Nancy Regan?
Ladybird Jonson?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Ladybird_johnson
I'm not in the habit of calling women ugly, but the pictures speak for themselves. You'd have to go back 45 years to find a first lady with any sex appeal, and if one would call Beyonce's looks overrated, I don't think there's a word in English for those of Jackie-O. She always kind of reminded me of a praying mantis.
I posted this on HalfSigma, might as well go here...
Let's say for the sake of argument Todd Palin and Michelle Obama both had IQs of 115.
Todd Palin goes to white schools his entire life. He's smart,(1 SD above the mean) but nothing special. He finds school boring. He applies to a normal state college and gets accepted with little fanfare.
Michelle Obama goes to a black school and also has an IQ of 115 but is actually 2 SDs better than the average person she knows and smarter than most of her teachers. She enjoys school because she's the best at it in her community. She's recruited by the top colleges in the world and her head continues to grow.
Todd Palin gets to college and doesn't find it all that exciting. If he has any intellectual interests at all, he gets the vague impression that it is the consensus of all educated people that he, as a white male, is the cancer of the earth. If he joins any student clubs that attract white males his IQ is only about average for the group. There aren't many scholarships available for a white male with an IQ of only 115 so he has to work full time to pay for school. A degree from Alaska U (or wherever he ends up dropping out of) isn't worth the time or effort. He ends up quitting and going into the real world where he ends up making more money than most people who go to college.
Michelle gets to a top university and gets a full ride. The degree from an Ivy league university gives her motivation to keep working. She doesn't have to work either so can dedicate herself to her studies. If she joins any student clubs that attract black females she finds herself once again as consistently being the smartest person in the room. If she pays attention in class she finds out that she, as a black and a woman, overcame great odds to get where she is. She finds that all intelligent people have reached a consensus that her race can do no wrong and can blame all their problems on whites. She's encouraged by her college experience and stays to completion.
Todd Palin, a white male with an IQ of 115, marries a hot wife and ends up making 100 grand a year. He does honest work that he's proud of but doesn't think he's anything special.
Michelle Obama, a black female with an IQ of 115, ends up getting a degree from an Ivy league school. Because of her interest in critical race post modern feminism she fancies herself a great intellectual and thinks she is saving the world as a diversity consultant.
This is how everybody ends up overestimating Michelle and underestimating Todd and how Michelle ends up overestimating herself.
Chic, nice to see you using your handel. As far as Mrs. Obama goes the gossip around Washington is that she is indeed a bitch though that as of yet has nothing to do with actual statecraft.
salon observer:
I am not a black woman and I love Beyonce without finding anything queasy about her. Her hair and hourglass are both beautiful.
Anonymous said:
"You usually have to be super fast with your paperwork for a shot at getting sworn in less than a year after graduating law school."
Rubbish. I took two state bar exams in June after graduating law school in May and was admitted and sworn in to both in November. Some of my friends from law school took one of the bars I took as well as NY and they were also admitted to the NY bar on the same time frame (i.e., less than 6 months post bar exam).
Half Sigma said:
"He sticks by his wife, even though she's a shrew and there are hundreds of thousands of hot young women he could have."
Maybe our arrugula-munching, metrosexual of a president-elect is a closeted homosexual (he does seem rather delicate and effiminate sometimes)- what the heck is he doing at Signor's appartment all the time anyway? - and isn't all that interested in the temptations offered by women, but has cooly calculated the value of marrying a dark, african- featured black woman in democratic party politics.
Vicuna said:
"Even if you ignore her vee-shaped body and hulking muscles, her craggy face indicates a high androgen level in her youth...I think she is naturally on the far left tail of the female testosterone bell curve."
As suggested above, maybe Barry's proclivities lead him to prefer the masculine aesthetic in his partners?
Steve, what does the First Lady actually do, apart from acting as the Presidential hostess? Do you not think Mrs O can do that? That you and so many of your readers are obsessed with knocking a Black woman who is not going to be in any actual office is beginning to look rather nasty and petty. Or is FLOTUS really important?
One of the few smart things W did was to keep his wife in the closet. After the loose cannon called Hillary, W knew that the First Lady would have been the target of derision has she pushed say, faith based iniatives or moralized about some such or other.
It looks now like we are going to get a lot more of the new first lady whether or not we asked for it. Barak is probably smart enough to know this but the question is if he has the balls to tell her to take a back seat. He probably doesn't.
That you and so many of your readers are obsessed with knocking a Black woman who is not going to be in any actual office is beginning to look rather nasty and petty.
One of the first things Obama did as president elect was to insult Nancy Reagan.
Anyway, the point is that Michelle Obama will likely be the "chief diversity officer" of the United States rather than a shrinking maternal violet.
Michelle Obama has Hillary Clinton's ambition and ruthlessness without the intelligence and competence to match.
Truth:
Where is the proof of any of this? Not saying it isn't possible, but where is the proof?
Truth, the vast majority of African Americans at elite schools are less qualified than their peers. This is a simple and deterministic consequence of the massive difference in IQ levels, SAT scores, GPAs, and any other quantitative measurement of academic performance.
At Michigan, you get 20 points for being black, 12 points for a perfect SAT score:
http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/archivedocs/q&a.html
It is hilarious that liberals go out of their way to hide the score differences -- check out what Gratz had to do to get the numbers out of Michigan! -- and then turn around and claim that we have "no direct evidence". Well, we *would* if you hadn't hidden it! Try getting even aggregate stats out of Harvard sometime.
It's the same level of chutzpah as the kid who murdered his parents pleading for clemency on the basis of being an orphan.
Those (like John of London) attempting to shut down criticism should familiarize themselves with articles like this, calling for Michelle Obama to "stir up the White House":
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/24/steiner.michelle.obama/index.html
This article must be read to be believed.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/24/steiner.michelle.obama/index.html
Admittedly, policy and legislation are off limits because Michelle Obama is not an elected official. But here's the beauty of Michelle Obama's position: She wasn't elected and she can't be impeached. Therefore Michelle can be audacious and outspoken about inequities facing women and minorities in America.
We live in a country with a crippling rate of teen pregnancy, the highest in the western industrialized world; our African-American women experience family violence at rates 35% higher than white women; and gender-based pay disparity costs women $2 million over a lifetime.
Barbara Bush's advice is particularly dangerous for Michelle Obama, given that African-American women have long been silenced by the "angry black woman" stereotype -- despite good reasons to be angry, such as the facts that African-American infants die at twice the national average, and 40 percent of African-American women report suffering coercive sexual attacks by age 18.
American women of all ethnicities need Michelle Obama to speak out about these problems and many others.
Michelle can brainstorm incendiary ideas all by herself, but here's my yeast for a dynamic four years:
• Invent a new title. No rule -- merely tradition -- requires the "first lady" nameplate. Mom-in-chief? Chief everything officer? First mom? So be it.
• Establish a brain trust of scientists, doctors and social historians to explore the physical, societal, and psychological challenges facing African-American women and girls in this country -- an under-researched subject in a field where most dollars (and public awareness) go toward research on issues facing black men, white men and white women.
• Bar white male reporters from your press conferences. Sounds crazy, but Eleanor Roosevelt held over 350 women-only press conferences during her 12 years in the White House. Her policy forced every major newspaper to hire female reporters, many for the first time.
• Show us your culture. Have your mom move into the White House to help out -- as many successful women do in this country when facing the challenges of being a working mother of young children. Dress yourself, your children and your home as you wish, using African-American designers, cooks, hairstylists, decorators. Or not. You -- not your specific acts -- are the message we need.
Maybe our arrugula-munching, metrosexual of a president-elect is a closeted homosexual (he does seem rather delicate and effiminate sometimes)- what the heck is he doing at Signor's appartment all the time anyway?
Typical American male sentiment, always looking for the "gayness" in another man. French, Italian, and Russian men to a lesser extent, manage to combine both effeminate and masculine very well. They put time and energy into looking good but can also protect their women.
but has cooly calculated the value of marrying a dark, African- featured black woman in democratic party politics
What is the value??? I want to read your take.
Vicuna said:
"Even if you ignore her vee-shaped body and hulking muscles, her craggy face indicates a high androgen level in her youth...I think she is naturally on the far left tail of the female testosterone bell curve."
If anything Michelle is a tad bit pear shaped. She is thin , 5'11 & built very similar to Victoria Secret models (watch the runway show next week).
what does the First Lady actually do, apart from acting as the Presidential hostess? Run secretive panels to foist socialized health care on the entire country, get elected a US Senator, run for president, become SecState (which just so happens to be 4th in line to the presidency).
I respect Michelle Obama as an energetic person and a hardworker. But estimating her IQ at 115 is silly.
Michelle's graduate thesis is childlike and shockingly bad. That paper is a milestone in the dumbing down of this once great nation.
Sorry, but the writer of that "work" qualifies either as 100 IQ, lazy, or 90-95 IQ, hardworking.
On the other hand, Condoleeza Rice is probably 115-120 IQ. Rice would never have submitted such a lousy paper.
And before others counter with silly claims that Rice has, uh, a 130-140 IQ and therefore Michelle is down at 115, keep in mind that Rice went around the world for years as Secretary of State without a coherent approach or conceptual framework. Rice will go down in history as the most unremarkable Secretary of State in the modern era.
If Rice were 130 she would have made her mark on history as a cagey negotiator. And if she were 140 she would have made her mark as a force to be reckoned with. Neither happened.
The pass rate for the bar exam from elite law schools is much lower. They don't teach the laws of individual states there, they teach law theory. My friend who graduted top of UofC law school and also has a doctorate in philosophy had a tough time with the Illinois bar. His firm sent him to a prep course for 6-8 weeks and he was studying 10hrs a day for it. He said he would have never passed without the prep course, and barely passed with it.
Truth:
"Where is the proof of any of this? Not saying it isn't possible, but where is the proof? "
In case you missed it, there are 2 countries in Africa which act as in-our-lifetime real-world expermiments as to the merits of black governance vs. white governance. The reason is that both had functioning western-type economies before and lots of economic and sociological statistics to go with that. After they had black governments installed in them by the US diversicrats (the ones in charge now in the US), the results of black governance could be studied.
Unfortunately the book-keeping has not been as thorough as it was before, so in a strict laboratory sense you would have to discard the experiments. But they are the closest you will get in our lifetime. In fact you could even travel there yourself, with notebook and pencil, er laptop. And unless your name is Jimmy Carter or Kofi Annan, they may just let you in to the older experiment which is the real chestnut.
Then you can study the changes yourself. That one has the benefit of being a longer-running one, so the data should be more interesting. It should be possible to keep whole sociology departments busy for decades writing theses and PhD's considering the stark changes in governance. Such stark contrasts always make for interesting academic research.
Unfortunately those who wanted change the most lost interest almost immediately after the change came about. I still cannot fathom why? Unless of course they were so far-sighted that they already knew the outcome so did not have to check the experiment. And considering the outcome that sort of makes me wonder about their moral dispositions.
Anyhow, the nice things is that the results are already out there, so it's possible to draw conclusions from them if you wanted to and can stand the facts.
"Let's say for the sake of argument Todd Palin and Michelle Obama both had IQs of 115."
"For the sake of argument" is always a cryptic phrase; what has Todd Palin done in his life to have us assume that he is smarter than the average person?
"Let's say for the sake of argument I can jump off this building and fly..."
"Truth, the vast majority of African Americans at elite schools are less qualified than their peers."
Yes, and judging from the fact that the NBA is 80% black, the vast majority of whites can't play basketball; does that mean we cast aspersions on Nash and Nowitski's MVP's with a jaundiced eye?
"Sheet, ever-body know they jes' gave it to them white boyz."
That's pretty much what you sound like.
I for one, like to judge everyone in this world individually, I'm funny like that. And when I hear that a lawyer describes someone as "quite possibly the most ambitious associate that I've ever seen." My mind somehow entertains the ridiculous assumption that maybe this quality could translate to someone actually studying hard; an asinine notion, I'm aware.
Besides college admissions are a very strange thing:
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.
aspx?ref=513563
So WN's and hobbyists alike, I have a short mental exercise for you:
Imagine one day that you went to a parent-teacher conference and the unamimous conclusion about jr. was that he was "quite possibly the most ambitious student that I've ever seen." Imagine that your six year old "went over my head and complained [to the principal] that I wasn't giving her enough interesting stuff...Basically he's complaining that he's being treated like she's a second-grader,' and would prefer Hagel and calculus to leggo blocks!"
I'm sure your disappointment would be overwhelming.
"salon observer:
I am not a black woman and I love Beyonce without finding anything queasy about her. Her hair and hourglass are both beautiful."
That's v. nice. I know a lot of people do, or she wouldn't be in all those commericials.
but let's be real:
it's not "her" hair. Or rather it is, but it's her "hair".
I once read a black woman fulminating about some yuppie (this was back in the early 80s) wearing kinky cornrows. This black writer didn't like it at all, this high-falutin' white lady appropriating this authentic black style.
I'm just saying.
"On the other hand, Condoleeza Rice is probably 115-120 IQ. Rice would never have submitted such a lousy paper.
"
Great, then I'm smarter than she is! Too bad that did not translate into a decent job.
Although Michelle is obviously majority black I would bet that somewhere in her family tree there is native american lineage. I have been observing her closely for months now and every time I see her the first thing I notice is her very fierce cheekbones! Her eyes are also closely spaced together. While not scientific proof of said ancestry, it is an observed phenomena for many people of Native heritage.
That's v. nice. I know a lot of people do, or she wouldn't be in all those commericials.
but let's be real:
it's not "her" hair. Or rather it is, but it's her "hair".
I once read a black woman fulminating about some yuppie (this was back in the early 80s) wearing kinky cornrows. This black writer didn't like it at all, this high-falutin' white lady appropriating this authentic black style.
I'm just saying
Please explain your point.
I'm a lawyer and a member of both the Pennsylvania and North Carolina bars. In both of those states, you'll be admitted to the bar weeks after you get your bar exam scores (usually a month or two after the exam date). New York is an outlier--the number of test takers clogs up the system so that it's not unusual for the July takers to not get sworn in until the following calendar year. I don't know whether Illinois is more similar to NY than PA and NC, but if Barack was admitted shortly after graduation, I'd assume that IL is more similar to PA and NC.
I worked for a big (~1,000 lawyer) law firm coming out of law school. No-one, no matter how ambitious, would have gone over a partner's head to complain about his or her work assignments. For one thing, if you were actually pulling your weight, you wouldn't have had time to do so. For another, everyone knew that doing scut work was the price you were supposed to pay for the six figure salary with no experience. Michelle's just a whiner with an ego way out of proportion to her ability.
FYI, because people are discussing African American women wearing fake hair, almost EVERY female celebrity wears FAKE hair! All of them, black, white, Mestizo, whatever, they all wear fake hair! Seriously
"I worked for a big (~1,000 lawyer) law firm coming out of law school. No-one, no matter how ambitious, would have gone over a partner's head to complain about his or her work assignments. For one thing, if you were actually pulling your weight, you wouldn't have had time to do so. For another, everyone knew that doing scut work was the price you were supposed to pay for the six figure salary with no experience. Michelle's just a whiner with an ego way out of proportion to her ability."
Like I wrote, if you want to be a comfortable 1 lawyer in 1,000 you don't complain about good pay for scut work. But if you want to be someone the rest of us has heard of, it helps to be an outrageous asshole. In that way, the Omarosa analogy is apt. If you want to make a decent living in Hollywood and not get blacklisted, and you have adequate but not exceptional talent, you don't complain about scut work. But if you want to have a chance at being a name someone could put in a blog post title confident thousands of random reader will recognize it ...
http://www.hopeanon.typepad.com
"In case you missed it, there are 2 countries in Africa which act as in-our-lifetime real-world expermiments as to the merits of black governance vs. white governance..."
This has exactly what to do with Michelle Obama passing the bar?
"Yes, and judging from the fact that the NBA is 80% black, the vast majority of whites can't play basketball; does that mean we cast aspersions on Nash and Nowitski's MVP's with a jaundiced eye?"
If there were quotas for white NBA players and MVP voters shared the same worship for whites that liberal elite decision makers have for blacks than yes.
"Imagine one day that you went to a parent-teacher conference and the unamimous conclusion about jr. was that he was "quite possibly the most ambitious student that I've ever seen." Imagine that your six year old "went over my head and complained [to the principal] that I wasn't giving her enough interesting stuff...Basically he's complaining that he's being treated like she's a second-grader,' and would prefer Hagel and calculus to leggo blocks!"
I'm sure your disappointment would be overwhelming."
I'd personally be very concerned if my children liked a bullshitting lunatic like Hagel at any age. And once again, your analogy is off because it's the ambition mixed with stupidity and sense of entitlement that makes Michelle so awful.
"If there were quotas for white NBA players and MVP voters shared the same worship for whites that liberal elite decision makers have for blacks than yes."
According to black athletes, there are quotas for white players. Charles Barkley and Billy Ray Bates (and Warren Sapp in football) have said exactly this. There are interesting stories from the 1970's about streetball legends coming to NBA practices and destroying well-regarded white players; Joe Hammond did it to Pat Riley, and Raymond Lewis did it to Doug Collins, and both Riley and Collins have admitted it. Neither Hammond or Lewis played in the NBA.
"your analogy is off because it's the ambition mixed with stupidity and sense of entitlement that makes Michelle so awful."
Where is the proof that Michelle Obama is stupid? Is it in her earning an Ivy league degree, or in her passing the bar?
Chic,
I think Michelle Obama is a strikingly attractive women. That height! Stupendous.
And she's admirably self-controlled and self-possessed.
Doesn't detract from what I said about black women as employees. They have a "you owe me this" attitude that is totally unacceptable in an employee.
Did you hear about the stampede in the Wal-mart's in "suburban NY"? It took place in a black ghetto in Long Island with an overwhelmingly black crowd. They trampled an Indian guy to death and no one helped him. On local TV, a young black woman was interviewed. She called them "savages." If a white woman said that, what do you think would have happened?
Many whites (like me) voted for Obama because we thought he was the better man and don't care about Michelle. But we also think that as a whole, blacks have a low-IQ and in large numbers should be avoided.
If you think I am a racist you can kiss my white ass. I call myself a realist.
Peace out.
So did Einstein, if he didn't he would have died on pension after a happy 40-year career with the Swiss patent office.
Could you have made a more worthless comparison? Einstein had a stratospheric IQ and came up with special relativity. Where were the remarks on Michelle O's natural talents in the article? They're conspicuously absent.
"PRCalDude said...
So did Einstein, if he didn't he would have died on pension after a happy 40-year career with the Swiss patent office.
Could you have made a more worthless comparison? Einstein had a stratospheric IQ and came up with special relativity. Where were the remarks on Michelle O's natural talents in the article? They're conspicuously absent."
Also, Einstein didn't demand a professorship based on his ambition, but rather was offered one after, in the span of one year, he had published two of the most important papers in the history of physics.
A word of advice, PRCalDude: trying to argue with "Truth" is pointless. For the most part, he'll just reach for any old lame argument in order to score a point, however feebly. He has only a thin grasp of reality. If you peruse some of his older posts, you'll find he believes in every crackpot conspiracy theory the internet has to offer. I would advise simply ignoring him.
"Einstein had a stratospheric IQ and came up with special relativity..."
The point was, as is often the case here, missed. I picked Einstein because he was the first person who came to mind; it could have been Henry Ford, Joan of Arc, Napoleon, or anyone who has a statue erected in his honor. It could have been Jesus; I'm sure Jesus was a competent carpenter, and could have made a nice living that way, BUT HE ASKED HIS BOSS FOR MORE RESPONSIBILITY, GET IT????
The point is not complicated; there are two types of people in this world, those who work 8 hours a day in their cubicle, and those who seek out more responsibilities and duties, guess to whom the world belongs?
Can't? Well I'll give you a hint, you've spent hour of your life discussing Michelle Obama, I doubt she spent her Saturday afternoon arguing about you.
"I get a tan to look like a gilded European."
In other words, you alter your skin to look like something you weren't conceived to look like, and hey, I have no problem with that.
"Where is the proof that Michelle Obama is stupid? Is it in her earning an Ivy league degree, or in her passing the bar?"
Her senior thesis. AA means an Ivy League degree for a black female doesn't mean much.
She's not stupid as in below average, but stupid for an Ivy league graduate and compared to what she thinks of herself as.
koos said...
testing99,
I have to agree with you on everything you wrote except for Sanaa Lathan, whoever that is. I did not even bother to google her. I prefer European babes. Nice bodies, european features and usually good brains with non-AA education. Why all western males are running after mulattos and middle easterners is beyond me.
___________________________
Koos,
You're right except for the Middle Eastern part. It depends. Some of them are completely white while the vast majority of them look like mulattos.
I'm glad that you mentioned mulatto females because our pc media is promoting racial mixing and mulatto women and men as a way to destroy European culture as well as to prove that "black" beauty is equal to white beauty.
Beyonce is overrated. I don't see any talent in her whatsoever comparable to Lena Horne, Diahann Carroll, Grace Kelly, Liv Tyler, Audrey Hepburn, and Rita Hayworth. She's not all that attractive either. The pc media is forcing her on the nonblack/nonmulatto public.
Majority of Whites and Asian men prefer their own women, not black and mulatto wpmen.
Renee
Michelle, Einstein, and Hitler: very ambitious. Yawn.
The point is Omarosa's ability - or lack thereof.
Read her abysmal thesis. That's no "smart black woman." That's a moron with an attitude and no expectation of being held to account by anyone. They don't call it a "protected class" for nothing.
By the way, Richard H, your comment on Todd Palin v. Michelle Obama was extraordinarily perceptive. I've had decades of experience in the corporate and university worlds, and every line of that rang true. I've seen those people a hundred times, and I've walked a good bit in Todd's shoes.
"In other words, you alter your skin to look like something you weren't conceived to look like, and hey, I have no problem with that."
What kind of babble is this? If the poster tans in the sun, that's what the poster was "conceived to look like".
Condoleeza Rice is probably 115-120 IQ. Rice would never have submitted such a lousy paper.
Condi Rice is a clear AA hire / promotion, too. Check out the publication record of the so-called professor sometime. Suspiciously thin! She co-wrote a book or two - and do you want to guess who did the heavy lifting, her or her co-author?
"What kind of babble is this? If the poster tans in the sun, that's what the poster was "conceived to look like"
And if the poster tans in a mechanical apparatus with specialized ointment designed to burn his skin?
Doesn't detract from what I said about black women as employees. They have a "you owe me this" attitude that is totally unacceptable in an employee.
Please explain in detail.
On local TV, a young black woman was interviewed. She called them "savages." If a white woman said that, what do you think would have happened?
Yes, I do and it would be similar if I dare call poor& working class white people poor white trash. Hint---It won’t be pretty. You can call your mother a bitch but I can’t. I’m sure I am much younger than you are, yet I don’t cry myself to sleep at night because I am not allowed to call groups of people bad names. You should be concentrating on more important things instead of what groups you can’t publically insult with vile names.
FYI, There was a similar incident in a white area a few Christmases ago. A woman had a heart attack or seizure inside of a Wallmart, people stepped over her without so much as a, “Are you alright maim”. Some guy even joked about taking the DVD player she held onto.
Many whites (like me) voted for Obama because we thought he was the better man and don't care about Michelle
Good for you. This^^^ shows that you have maturity and you are smart enough to understand that “cutting off your nose to spite your face” is a dumb move.
But we also think that as a whole, blacks have a low-IQ and in large numbers should be avoided
You are not the first nor will you be the last. I will sleep my normal 4-8 hrs tonight and not lose sleep over your comments.
If you think I am a racist you can kiss my white ass child like much I call myself a realist-call yourself whatever you like.
You know yourself better than I do. I wouldn’t call you a flaming racist but you are somewhere on the spectrum.
Truth makes a good point about Michelle Obama. It's possible that she's an Omarosa, but the article Sailer cites doesn't prove it. And, in another context (e.g., if she were a white man), her persistence and aggressiveness would be admired.
This reminds me of an anecdote from Tim Ferris's book, "The Four Hour Work Week". Ferris, like Michelle, is a Princeton grad, and like Michelle, probably wasn't smart enough to get in their on the merits (according to his own admission). Ferris is also 100% white, of Scandinavian heritage. He wrote in his book that every time he got less than an "A" on a test or a paper at Princeton, he met with the TA and grilled him for a couple of hours about where he went wrong and why he was graded like that. It got to the point where he started getting A's because they didn't want to deal with him.
When I read that, I was impressed with Ferris's cleverness, persistence, and audacity. Honestly, if I had read the same thing about Michelle Obama, I'd probably have a different first impression, one similar to Sailer's. The only rational explanation for that is my own prejudice. Acknowledging it is the first step toward getting rid of it.
- Fred
"And if the poster tans in a mechanical apparatus with specialized ointment designed to burn his skin?"
The poster can't imagine using a mechanical appartus for this purpose. The poster is a beach comber who loves fun in the sun. The poster finds it impossible to spend time on the beach without getting an extra layer of color. I look like a nice glowing peach--people want to nibble me.
Everybody's skin will darken with exposure to weather so it's not "unatural."
Keeping out of the sun to keep pale as Asians do and Euros used to do, is not "unnatural".
In fact I knew an Ethiopian man who didn't want his young kids to get in the sun--he said it "spoiled" their "natural beauty." While I knew about colorism in the African and Middle Eastern world, I didn't think Ethiopians in America thought like that.
I disagree with a poster who claim that most middle easterners look like "mulattos". They do not. In bone structure and body type they are like Europeans. They are darker, features largers, but basically caucasian. The very high noses and hirsuteness are very un-sub-Saharan african as you can get.
Some people just cast a very small net when it comes to race. Carleton Coon still makes the most sense to me.
The writer of the comment that starts with, "Black women are the most difficult employees" is obviously really limited and can only think in stereotypes where everyone of this group is "like this...", and everyone of that group is "like that...". Enough already with the nonsense. Isn't it obvious by now that people are individuals and that the stereotypes don't fit? Surprise, surprise, Black women are people. We are raised in families. We go to school and some of us choose to pursue advanced education and some of us don't. We work. We struggle to have fulfilling careers. We have families. Like the rest of America, some of us marry and some don't.This is 2008. The ignorant stereotypes are old and passe. Grow up already!
How dare that "Concerned" blogger who wrote that black women are difficult to work with, it might seem like that way to you because we just work, not telling you what we really think about you because we have to keep it to ourselves. We have to do everything perfectly, to be thought adequate, while you people walk around sipping coffee and applying lipstick and talking about summer shares. You are the ones who are unproductive, waste time, and destroy companies with stupid decisions that bankrupt them and destroy people's pensions. However, now your fantasy world is coming to an end. And now you are all broke. There are celebrity chefs on television showing you how to make pigs knuckles and greens and chicken wings with spaghetti. They call it simple, but it's really cheap, and that's what you are all coming down to! You're all coming down to our level now, aha! It used to be said that only black people ate knuckes and hoofs and tails, but you people are eating it now! And to Mr. or Miss "Concerned" have you ever even worked with a black woman? Do you even work at all?
Being an lightskinned blk American does not mean one has a white parent.
White birds get into the nest in a lot of ways. Few people's sex lives are tidy, including grandparents and great-grandparents, etc.
Particularly in the South, there are old White and Negro family trees that are MUCH more entangled than anyone lets on. But when you mention this stuff down South, you are ripping the lid off hell.
Wow, this thing certainly has degenerated to people magazine and stormfront levels. First, if mulatto means a white parent, then no, Beyonce isn't one. If it means obvious white admixture, she and her Mom obviously are, and its why she's so hot. Second, is there a man out there who isn't gay but doesn't find Beyonce sexually attractive? And because she doesn't have racially authentic hair? Women use make up, push up bras, computer retouching, chemical tans, dyes, paints, elastics, booty pads, silicone implants, botox, etc to simulate youth and high estrogen, why get excercised about the one aspect of the grand ruse that carries a racial implication?
As for the original subject, Michelle, clearly a bit of a piece of work, but most first ladies have been. And which man, save maybe W with Laura, his one good decision, is so happy with his wife more than ten years on that he can declare that Obama married her for cynical polictical / racial symbolism reasons? Like no regular joe white dude ever married a shrew.
Let's see if this passes Steve's censorship.
@"truth":
White people naturally tan when exposed to UV light. What about that is hard for you to understand? Personally I think excessive tanning is dumb, but a tanned white person is a tanned white person. Tanning has zero connection to sub-Saharan Africans.
Hair straighteners and weaves have nothing to do with black biology and aren't even products of black civilization.
@chic:
The women you named have substantial white ancestry regardless of the racial identity of their parents.
"Men, unlike women for purposes of copulation, like to sleep with any woman they find attractive blk,white, Asian etc..."
It just so happens white men tend to find white women much more attractive than black women.
I did pop "Sanaa Lathan" into Google Images, and I've got to say [I don't find her attractive]. If they ever make The Divine Brown Story, Lathan should be a shoe-in for the lead. Not for the first time tevil [reveals poor judgment].
@regularjoe:
"Second, is there a man out there who isn't gay but doesn't find Beyonce sexually attractive?"
Yes. Fake is not sexy, and Beyonce was even less appealing before.
Someone above mentioned the universal tendency of black women to be bad co-workers. By asserting it he proved it, no doubt.
But the worst co-workers in my experience the have generally been physically unfit, white male dorks who spend company time perusing racist websites and blogs, bitching about the laziness and effrontery of black women.
Other irritating tendencies common to this particular group: bitching about their stilted careers and the evils of AA while working for companies whose management is like 70 percent white male.
But I can only speak to my experience and would hate to generalize.
Is it just me, or does Michelle Obama look like a darker version of Sigourney Weaver?
"You should be concentrating on more important things instead of what groups you can’t publically insult with vile names."
Wow; Chic Noir, I'm speechless. It's so refreshing to encounter a poster here who is not suffering from parrot DNA. Will you marry me? I dig ditches for a living but I promise to bring my $223.74 straight home every Friday.
(Steve you should start a dating service.)
PS: My word verification was 'ahsole'; you think that's one of those black swan coincidences?
Dean- Many middle easterners are mulattos. Unlike America, slave owners could "claim" the children they had with their slaves. A number of people from the Saudi royal family look similar to light-skinned and medium complected African-Americans. Furthermore, there is not one unique look the sub Sharian Blacks. Have you had a good look at African-Americans lately? The color of our skin varies greatly and does the shapes and sizes of our noses and lips. Or how about goggling some pictures of Yourba,Fulani,Igbo,Fanta,Ashanti,San,Bantu,Xhosa,Dinka,Luo etc..
people to note physical differences found amongst blk Africans.
David-agreed
There are celebrity chefs on television showing you how to make pigs knuckles and greens and chicken wings with spaghetti. They call it simple, but it's really cheap, and that's what you are all coming down to! You're all coming down to our level now, aha! It used to be said that only black people ate knuckles and hoofs and tails, but you people are eating it now!
Any place where you have or have had people living in poverty, you will find people eating like the above. The French eat snails and often as Nigerians and some Asians. The French and some Asians eat chitlins too.
Mark saidbitching about their stilted careers and the evils of AA while working for companies whose management is like 70 percent white male
I agree 100%. Maybe I different but I usually root for the underdog. When I see Jeremy Wariner run the 400m, I root for him since there are very few white American sprinters. Change is sometimes good.
truth saidWow; Chic Noir, I'm speechless. It's so refreshing to encounter a poster here who is not suffering from parrot DNA. Will you marry me? I dig ditches for a living but I promise to bring my $223.74 straight home every Friday
Yes I will. You should buy my ring the day after Christmas when it's cheaper.
Truthiest- Beyonce's nose job is debatable. A better choice would of been Halle Berry. One thing is for sure, Beyonce does not have breast implants. She is a natural A/B cup. Sometimes she wears cutlets, padding, tape, and pushup bras.
It just so happens white men tend to find white women much more attractive than black women
I don’t doubt this because most men marry women from their own race, ethnic group clan etc.. most attractive. At the same time don’t let any White man fool you into thinking that if Beyonce, Gabrielle Union, Michelle Obama, Rihanna or myself were in his bed, that he would kick any of us out. Men don’t think like women, most won’t remain celibate for long periods when there is a woman is ready willing and able. Any woman is a good woman when the lights go out.
Then again, white men tend to find Asian women more attractive than white women Truthiest.
Mark said...
".. But the worst co-workers in my experience the have generally been physically unfit, white male dorks who spend company time perusing racist websites and blogs, bitching.."
Mark, you are a good liberal. Seriously though, why insult Steveniks? I am a physically fit white male working on his second PhD, I never missed a day of work for it, and I post on iSteve whilst waiting for a numerical simulation instead of talking rubbish at the coffee machine.
This tendency of liberals to pontificate and paint conservatives as cave dwellers is really boring and unrealistic. If anything liberals are what is known in German as "spießig". Since you are such a refined person I leave the translation to you.
Is it just me, or does Michelle Obama look like a darker version of Sigourney Weaver?"
after wiping tears of laughter from my eyes, I type this:
Yes. It's just you.
but hey--give it a go. Get a picture of Mrs. B.O. and photoshop it, make her sort of pale beigey, then put it next to Sigourney at the same age.
Let us know what you think and please, post the results.
"And to Mr. or Miss "Concerned" have you ever even worked with a black woman? Do you even work at all?"
We all have. Or anybody in an east coast metropolitan area; or perhaps upper mid-west urban area. I don't know about other places.
We've all encountered them, been harrassed, lied to--they seemed to have no problem lying on timesheets; even the honest blacks were persecuted by the ones who wanted to lie. It was a far worse problem than among whites. The percentages were almost inverse: 20% of the whites would be crap and 80% ok; among blacks, the reverse. However, I've actually worked with many I've liked and who were ok, including my current co-workers who are quite professional.
But most whites who have worked in predominantly black enviornments have had nightmarish experiences. Many have PTS for years afterwards and are one reason why sites like this one provide a much needed forum for expression.
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