James Alan Fox of Northeastern University, whose study of homicide trends provided the basis for a somewhat misleading article in the New York Times today, has kindly sent me some more detailed data (derived from the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics website) on recent trends in homicide offending rates.Here's the NYT's graphs, which show not the expected rate per capita but the absolute number of perpetrators. The reader who doesn't stop to take this into account would assume that the black homicide rate is about twice the "white" rate. But, of course, there are far more white than black teens, so the black rate is actually much higher than just twice as bad.
First, Dr. Fox confirmed for me that what the New York Times referred to as number of homicides perpetrated by "whites" is actually the number for "whites plus most Hispanics." (The federal government is very careful about breaking out Hispanic statistics separately in almost all venues except crime rates. I wonder why?) This is an important point because it's likely that Hispanics now commit the majority of homicides in the younger age groups of the government's "whites plus Hispanics" aggregation.
Second, he sent me the per capita rates, from which I have calculated the ratio of homicide perpetrating rates. The following table lists the ratio of the murder rate for blacks to the murder rate for whites plus Hispanics. For example, in 2007, the black homicide rate among 14-17 year-old-males was 10.0 times the level of homicide rate for the aggregation of whites and Hispanics.
| 14-17 | 18-24 | 25+ | |
| 2000 | 8.1 | 9.1 | 7.6 |
| 2001 | 7.6 | 8.3 | 7.3 |
| 2002 | 7.0 | 8.3 | 7.6 |
| 2003 | 7.7 | 8.6 | 7.7 |
| 2004 | 7.7 | 8.2 | 7.0 |
| 2005 | 8.5 | 8.7 | 7.8 |
| 2006 | 9.3 | 9.3 | 8.1 |
| 2007 | 10.0 | 9.4 | 7.8 |
My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer
Posts
60 comments:
I wonder how this works out in terms of the homicide victim rate, as opposed to the perpetrator rate. It would be interesting to know the black / white / Hispanic (do they break down victim rates for Hispanics?) homocide victim rates.
anybody doing serious work on race must jettison any reference to the US federal government's idea that there is such a thing as a hispanic race. there is not, it does not exist, and this "group" corresponds to nothing in the real world. it is barely even a useful proxy for mestizos, as the government's data is hopelessly confounded by confusing one category of information (race) with another (geographic location).
the FBI counts most mestizo criminals as "white" anyway, which is simply more evidence that even the government is not sure what the "hispanic" category is really supposed to measure. also counted in the "white" category is the LA gold chain crowd that steve talks about: arabs, sephardic jews, berbers, and persians.
the US census bureau is even less accurate than the FBI, and does not control how people identify themselves. plenty of mestizos simply put "white" on the census. this probably explains why US government statistics indicate there are so many "white-hispanic" interracial marriages. as a white guy who has dated mestizo women in nevada and california, i can count on one hand the number of white male-mestizo female couples i encountered in the last 5 years. as michael phelps has discovered, interracial couples in the southwest are overwhelmingly white male-asian female.
a year or two ago, half of the people on the FBI's 10 most wanted list were "hispanic" per the US federal government's usual sloppy definition. not exactly a resounding endorsement of mestizo immigration. but i wonder if most of them were counted as "white". i wonder if the 9-11 terrorists were counted as "white". i'm under the impression that most muslims in the united states are counted as "white".
in my experience, the CIA is the only US federal agency that generally correctly identifies people by race. amerindian populations are noted as such in their intelligence reports.
That is absolutely amazing. Simply by removing blacks, America's per capita homicide rate falls to slightly above the Western European average. Without Hispanics it might be less than half of that. I wonder how many other nations have such an extreme difference in racial groups' crime rates.
This is an important point because it's likely that Hispanics now commit the majority of homicides in the younger age groups of the government's "whites plus Hispanics" aggregation.
Steve, you're probably right. You follow such statistics more closely than I do. However, how do you explain this:
In this table of cities with populations above 250,000 arranged by crime rate El Paso, TX is near the bottom. According to the Wikipedia El Paso was 86.6% Hispanic in 2000. Its murder rate in 2007 was 3 per 100,000 living. That's very low. Detroit, the record holder in that year, was at 46. The rate for the country as a whole is probably 7 or 8 now. Before the immigration debacle in Europe murder rates for European countries were usually in the 1 to 3 range.
I wouldn't necessarily conclude anything about the nationwide Hispanic crime rate just from the data from El Paso, but it makes one think.
Of course almost all of the El Paso Hispanics would be Mestizos. In the Northeast most Hispanics are Mulattoes. But wouldn't those Mulattoes be more likely to end up in the Black than in the White column in statistics that don't have the Hispanic column anyway?
Steve, breaking down criminals as hispanic or non-hispanic white is actually a bit more difficult than in other applications like employment and college admissions.
First, police typically identify people as "white" who would in other contexts be classified by hispanic. For example, a Kevin Gomez, born in Orange County to Mexican parents, english as a first language, 5 foot 10, light skin, light brown hair, and green eyes, will probably be identified as "white" by police in an arrest report, and the race ID kept as he works his way through the system.
This makes sense. If he jumps bail and they put out an APB on him as "hispanic" they would not be able to catch him as easily.
Since there is no affirmative action in the criminal justice system, people who are white-looking hispanics or who are white/hispanic mixes may just self-identify as white and get that label in the criminal justice system. There is no incentive for "hispanics" who look and are culturely Anglo to list themselves as hispanic, like they would if they were applying for a scholarship.
While white hispanics do have crime rates lower than other hispanic groups, I bet they are still higher than other white groups because of income and cultural factors.
The second problem is that that members of the criminal class may not know the race of their fathers.
I actually had a look at a website for the county jail in a border county, and about 15% of the people identified as white had hispanic surnames. As in my example above, their listed physical discription was taller and lighter than the hispanic average.
The takeaway from all this is that (a) you can't generalize about Hispanics nationwide as easily as you can about blacks and (b) the majority-Hispanic model works for most cities in which the remaining population is filled out with whites and Asians.
Just look at that table of cities: In addition to El Paso, you have Santa Ana, San Antonio and Corpus Christi all near the bottom in violent crime.
What sort of folks are we talking about?
www.ci.santa-ana.ca.us/cm/mayorandcouncil.asp
www.ci.el-paso.tx.us/government.asp
As you can see, nobody you wouldn't mind having over for dinner.
Hispanics are socially and culturally prone to crime, like Irish and Italians are (or at least used to be). The ones that don't have black ancestry don't have that same biological aggressiveness, short-temper, and what we in the medical field like to call "inhibition" that makes blacks so good at sports, but so bad at integrating into modern, polite, office-work society.
If the FBI has the data at the level of granularity, of, say the county, and if the Census Bureau has good numbers on white & hispanic population distributions by county [and especially if the Census Bureau can break it down further by age], then you could just run a linear least squares ["regression analysis"] and separate out white data from hispanic data pretty much instantaneously [modulo the distinction between e.g aboriginal/mestizo Mexican "hispanics" and e.g. Castillian Cuban "hispanics"].
PS: Speaking of "Castillian" hispanics, did you see where the suicidally low fertility rate in Spain has forced the Spanish to beg for a reverse-diaspora among "Castillian" peoples?
Compare:
Cubans line up to apply for Spanish citizenship
Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:14pm EST
reuters.com
HAVANA (Reuters) - Hundreds of Cubans lined up outside the Spanish Embassy in Havana on Monday on the first day Spain began taking applications for Spanish citizenship under the country's "historic memory" law...
One theory: El Paso and Juarez are very close, but Juarez is a hellhole. There's a lot of back and forth across the border with the criminal element preferring to operate on the Mexican side. Juarez attracts the criminal types and the ones without the ambition/IQ to make a legal living on the US side. Kind of like how the Bronx has 1.3mil people and Manhattan 1.5mil but despite being adjacent, they're worlds apart in terms of crime. (For the record, the population of Juarez is 1.5mil, El Paso 700K.)
Reply: >>>>>>>I wonder how many other nations have such an extreme difference in racial groups' crime rates.<<<<<<<<
The Malays (South-East Asians) in multi-ethnicSingapore share similarities with African-Americans. In Singapore, the Chinese and Indians work in overwhelmingly professional jobs while Malays are disproportionately involved in manual/clerical/service labor. The Chinese and Indians have high education rates while the Malays rather low. Similarly, the Chinese/Indian crime rates are low while the Malays are disproportionately high.
Of course this is the most shocking and pertinent revelation in the whole field of so-called 'race relations'.
But just why is Joe Sixpack totally ignorant of this fact - and the real force of its ramifications?
- I am inclined to believe taht the deliberate campaign of deception is actually far worse than the deceptions the Church played upon the public in the 16th century when it insisted that the sun revolved around the earth, and persecuted Galileo in the process.
Would your Freedom of Information Act allow someone to access the FBI statistics and split the 'white' portion into NHW and Hispanics?
Jockney, London
Stopped Clock asks, "I wonder how many other nations have such an extreme difference in racial groups' crime rates?"
The short answer is lots. Per capita black crime is several times higher than per capita white crime in Britain, Canada, France, and South Africa. You can Google around and find the supporting stats pretty easily. Crime rates of Amerindians are considerably higher than those of whites and East Asians in both Canada and the United States. Crime rates of Maoris and what the U.S. Census would call Pacific Islanders are much higher than those for other New Zealanders.There's surely much more but those are the ones I know for sure.
While we're at it ... since the Bureau of Justice Statistics doesn't differentiate Hispanics from whites, if a bunch of MS-13 or Latin Kings are out bangin' and they shoot a black kid, does that not officially count as a white-on-black violent crime?
Stopped Clock sed:
"I wonder how many other nations have such an extreme difference in racial groups' crime rates."
Germany: ethnic German rates vs. immigrant Turkish rates. The same in Holland, Switzerland and Austria. France is seven worse because they have a lot of African baggage. But don't expect the press to tell you.
"Would your Freedom of Information Act allow someone to access the FBI statistics and split the 'white' portion into NHW and Hispanics?"
This is a good question. I think it would, but I didn't realize the FBI kept such statistics.
One of the cool things about HBD is that its revelations remain the same. You could have read - did read - this story 10, 20, 30 years ago. You will read it (assuming censorship is not imposed by Barry the Miracle) 10, 20, 30 years from now.
Nothing in the social sciences is more predictable than the ultimate failure of blacks to be white.
I would like to see similar statistics on fraud or criminality among politicians by race.
Although there are plenty of white politicians who are crooks, some at least aren't. It has always seemed to me that virtually all black politicians are bent.
I realize that there are serious methodological problems with gathering the data but it seems to me to be worh te try.
I would move to Japan (if i was Japanese) but i am not Japanese and thus me and my family won't be embraced there.
What is the solution? Where can a high IQ family move in order to have the best future over the next 100 years?
What nation is best positioned to provide a good and safe life?
Probably no where in Europe or North America but where?
"Probably no where in Europe or North America but where?"
There is nowhere left to go for most of us. If you can speak Japanese and have a skill/high IQ that the Japanese want or need, you can probably live there in peace. You may not be welcomed with open arms, but I don't think you'll suffer abuse(doubtful you'll have the same rights as Japanese would). You have to ask yourself what you consider a good and safe life.
"Where can a high IQ family move in order to have the best future over the next 100 years? "
How about stay and fight?
There was an interesting article on bloomberg by a Russian analyst who predicts the economic meltdown / illegal immigration will result in America splitting up.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a3sayDZz.QKc&refer=us
Us smart Americans who wish to live among others who are law abiding all meet in WY / MT / ID / SD and make our own country?
http://freestateproject.org/taxonomy/term/53
WY is something like 98% white and is top 10 in National Assessment of Educational Progress rankings. MT is 4th, I think.
"Where can a high IQ family move in order to have the best future over the next 100 years?"
Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, the wind can be fierce in WY, which is one reason it's so sparsely populated.
But would you rather have the wind blow your hat off or a feral black blow your head off?
Latin America a generation ago, including Mexico, was know for being an easy going non-violent place. Revolutions aside, it was generally very safe to travel around if you were a Gringo. It was not until the drug and gun culture took over that these guys went crazy.
On another interesting note, it will be interesting to see how the Obama administration reacts to black on black and black on white violence. The reason the NYT can fob off this story by misleading graphs is that the average person has no idea of what the murder rates really are. They have this unreal preception that most crimes are committed by racist white people. The sniveling by blacks should become unbearable by 2010 eventually leading to the mainstream media finally covering this topic.
New Zealand?
"But just why is Joe Sixpack totally ignorant of this fact - and the real force of its ramifications?"
People here are so out of touch.
How the f is joe sixpack unaware of these differences?
also counted in the "white" category is the LA gold chain crowd that steve talks about: arabs, sephardic jews, berbers, and persians.
That's appropriate; they are white. That is, they are Caucasian. What else would you call them? They're not black or Hispanic. I guess many of them are Asians, but not all. And, even if they are Asian, they would be West Asians. It's confusing enough that Indians get lumped together with Chinese. Let's not throw Arabs in the same mix!
Anonymous, why not just move to Japan anyway? You may not be embraced, but you'll still have a good, safe life.
Great blog, btw, Steve; I'm glad I found it.
people who are white-looking hispanics or who are white/hispanic mixes may just self-identify as white and get that label in the criminal justice system.
As Jody would tell you, there is no such thing as a white/hispanic mix because there's no such thinbg as a Hispanic.
While white hispanics do have crime rates lower than other hispanic groups, I bet they are still higher than other white groups because of income and cultural factors.
You would probably lose that bet. White "Hispanics" are tautologically white, and (at least outside Miami) their income levels and culture do not differ in any significant way from those of other whites, except of course Fischer's "border British", which means their crime rate is probably lower than the white average.
"But would you rather have the wind blow your hat off or a feral black blow your head off?"
The overwhelming majority of white murder victims are killed by whites.
But just why is Joe Sixpack totally ignorant of this fact - and the real force of its ramifications?
In my experience, a large portion (>50%) of average, generally apolitical white males are well aware of the racial crime rate discrepancy. The (average white) man on the street is probably not aware of its full extent, but at the very least he knows which towns/neighborhoods in his region are to be avoided, and he knows why these places are dangerous.
You're under this impression because Joe Sixpack is generally well aware of the rules of PeeCee and thus isn't going to mention his heterodox opinions to you unless he knows you quite well.
We have freedom of the press but apparently that freedom does not extend to reporting the race of criminal suspects.
Erm, reframe: we have freedom of the press, which includes the freedom to obfuscate and socially engineer.
"The overwhelming majority of white murder victims are killed by whites."
Nice attempt at sophistry, there, "Truth."
Here's the facts:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BLACK_HOMICIDES?SITE=WYCHE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-12-29-00-04-17
For all of U.S. in 2007:
The FBI reported 10,067 arrests in murder and non-negligent manslaughter cases in 2007. Half of the people arrested - 5,078 - were black. Almost 10 percent of black people arrested for murder were under age 18, the FBI data show.
Last year, for example, 426 black males between the ages of 14 and 17 were killed in gun crimes, the study shows. That marked a 40 percent increase from 2000.
Similarly, an estimated 964 in the same age group committed fatal shootings in 2007 - a 38 percent increase from seven years earlier
The number of young white men who committed gun-related homicides also rose over the same period, the Northeastern study showed, but not as dramatically. In 2007, an estimated 384 white males age 14 to 17 shot someone to death, up from 368 in 2000.
So 964 black young male gun murderers
Only 384 white young male gun murderers.
2.5 X as many young black male murderers as young white male murderers
And blacks are only about 1/7 of the population
Since blacks commit 50% of murders and the absolute # of black murderers is greater than the absolute number of white murderers, as well as # of black murderers percentage wise are greater, HOW do you come up with your foolish notion that whites are more likely to be killed by whites???
You get a right to your own opinion, but NOT your own facts.
Wyoming had 16, 16 -- TOTAL -- murders in 2007, population about 530,000 in the state.
New Orleans in 2004 before Katrina, pop. about 450,000, 265 murders -- 16X as many murders.
So how is Wyoming different from pre-Katrina New Orleans? Hmmm... boy, just can't figure it...
I suppose I'm the only who sees irony in the posters here who otherwise often complain about immigrants to America ruining the fabric of society and not wanting to embrace them .......
...now discussing their plans to immigrate to Japan and lamenting the fact that we won't "embrace" you.
Have you considered the thought that perhaps we don't want our society dragged down by rude lower IQ white people?
(not that I personally feel this way)
The Japanese are the nicest people on Earth. Every American I've talked to who has moved to Japan has loved it.
Steve, what is your conclusion or point? I read all that data- let's here why you think there is such a differnce between the rates.
Truth,
Less commenting on websites about black crime and more volunteering down at the YMCA for midnight basketball.
[i]New Zealand?[/i]
Nope. Marxist and dystopic, and the Maori are taking it back.
--Senor Doug
You get a right to your own opinion, but NOT your own facts.
Am I entitled
to FBI
facts
"The overwhelming majority of white murder victims are killed by whites."
Nice attempt at sophistry, there, "Truth."
I don't find that idea at all hard to believe, and it has nothing to do with PC. Outside of urban poor neighborhoods - which are overwhelmingly non-white - people are much more likely to be killed by someone they know. This has been true pretty much forever.
Therefore, it's likely that most white murder victims are killed by other white people. (I'm sure the actual statistics are available somewhere.) That fact says nothing about the relative propensity for crime of different races.
It does, however, put into perspective the minimal danger that most white people - especially middle-class white people, who tend to have fewer hot-tempered, drunken, well-armed neighbors than their working-class cousins - face of being murdered, especially by a random stranger.
yes -
white people (or americans of european ancestry) are *much* more violent than japanese in japan. Also much more likely than japanese living in the usa.
All in all, i would rather live with japanese people, either in the usa or in japan, than white people - the safety is much greater also the politeness is much greater
Takahata, I know you're just making an internet point, but here is my personal experience: I don't know any white or black American who has relocated to Japan because of concerns for their family's safety, and their desire to raise their family in a cohesive culture. All those people look at Japan and see a culture where their children will always be foreigners and move to SE Asia instead. Americans who move to Japan do it for other reasons.
Every new year one Salt Lake City paper, the Deseret News, actually bothers to print a list of murders that occurred in the state, the circumstances and location of their death, and the perpetrator, if known. This provides a very useful list for comparing white murder rates to "white" murder rates. It's a useful list because Utah has enough murders (80 in 2007; 40 in 2008) that it's a decent sample, but not too many that it's an overly long read. Keep in mind that white's are about 85% of Utah's population but usually fewer than half of the perps. (The 2007 story links to the Google cache, because the DesNews archives seem not to be working well of late.)
The overwhelming majority of white murder victims are killed by whites.
Right, due to the fact that the overwhelming majority of whites don't live alongside blacks in any numbers. In every area with a substantial black population, people of all races are more likely to be murdered by a black than by a person of any other race.
"Less commenting on websites about black crime and more volunteering down at the YMCA for midnight basketball."
I PLAYED midnight basketball last night, as with most things, I'm good. Last week I messed around and got a triple-double
steve wood,
In case you're interested, in South Africa, where the demographics are the inverse to the US, most of the violent crime is perpetrated by blacks.
Instead of whining about Hispanics' incorrect racial classification, why not start a movement to change it? Guess what? The Republican Party isn't interested? The last political movement to change the racial classification system (the "Multiracial Movement") was strongly opposed by the Democratic Party (led by the NAACP and the National Council of La Raza). The NAACP feared that, if mulattoes were separated from blacks in the collection of statistics, the condition of blacks would prove to be far worse than it usually appears. Why do you think that blacks and the black-identified "mulatto elite" are so devoted to demonizing whites of partial black ancestry as "passers" who should be forced into their "race" against their will? They want the superior white DNA!
"In every area with a substantial black population, people of all races are more likely to be murdered by a black than by a person of any other race."
I provided stats, you pulled something out of your ass.
"That accounts for a lot of whites killing other whites. Crimes of passion, abusive spouses, family feuds & rivalries etc."
Yeah, and that makes them less dead.
Truth, the point is blacks are more dangerous than whites per capita.
This becomes important as the population darkens.
"Truth, the point is blacks are more dangerous than whites per capita."
No, the original point that got me to respond was that someone wrote something about prefering the wind of Wyoming to being killed by a black, or something similarly ignorant. I simply replied that moving to Wyoming is not going to have a great impact on a white person's getting murder as whites are FIVE AND ONE HALF TIMES more likely to be killed by another white. Wyoming has plenty of whites.
As far as who is more dangerous "per capita", it depends on which statistics one reads. I would tend to believe that in the history of black and whites occupying the same space, many more blacks have lost their lives at the hands of whites than vice-versa. Care to disagree?
"That accounts for a lot of whites killing other whites. Crimes of passion, abusive spouses, family feuds & rivalries etc."
Yeah, and that makes them less dead.
Truth - the point was, I think, that those are kind of murders that happen in any racial group. There is just no avoiding that. However Blacks seem more prone to that kind of violence plus random violence on strangers.
Basically I dont see your point.
As far as who is more dangerous "per capita", it depends on which statistics one reads. I would tend to believe that in the history of black and whites occupying the same space, many more blacks have lost their lives at the hands of whites than vice-versa. Care to disagree?
An excellent argument for national, racial separation then. Then poor black folks will be safe from evil whites. Sounds straightforward enough.
"No, the original point that got me to respond was that someone wrote something about prefering the wind of Wyoming to being killed by a black, or something similarly ignorant. I simply replied that moving to Wyoming is not going to have a great impact on a white person's getting murder as whites are FIVE AND ONE HALF TIMES more likely to be killed by another white. Wyoming has plenty of whites."
What? Truth, do you even read other people's posts?
As I said, in Wyoming, a state with 530,000 people, we had 16, note I said, 16, as in 10 + 6, as in less than 20, murders in the whole state in the whole year.
In New Orleans, a city of 450,000, prior to Hurricane Katrina, of which 2/3 were blacks, there were 265 murders.
In other words, 249 more murders in New Orleans than in Wyoming, 16x as many murders in New Orleans than Wyoming.
So unless you can show me that all 249 of those excess murder victims were black, then that means more whites died in New Orleans than in Wyoming.
When a white guy says, "I'm not racist! My best friend is black!" he's accused of tokenism.
So here's Truth's version of TOKENISM!!!
"This would probably lead you to believe that I hate whites, I don't. A few of the people I hold the utmost love and respect for in this world are white males."
Hey, Truth, you're not racist! Your best friends are white!
Thanks! I'm going to be laughing over this one all day.
Oh, and that's mighty nice and broadminded of you being all tolerant of white guys and only judging individuals an' all.
Too bad I can't afford to be so generous to black males. As a white woman, I make too good a target for victimization. Kinda like a rabbit tends not to stick around areas where there's lots of coyotes.
Oughtn't the rabbit be broadminded enough to judge each coyote individually? Surely all that is needed is for the rabbit to be educated to let go of its irrational fears, right? I mean, what about the vegan coyote? What if he gets his feelings hurt?
Funny. White flight is, at its base, white women (with their families) fleeing areas heavily populated by black men, in favor of areas heavily populated by white men.
But, as murderous, Truth, as you claim we whites are, I don't see a big trend of blacks fleeing heavily white areas to return to Africa, for instance.
"Too bad I can't afford to be so generous to black males. As a white woman, I make too good a target for victimization."
Honestly, I'm not much into the whole 'mandingo victimization' routine, I prefer intelligent conversation and a nice dinner, but I have had white girlfriends that couldn't get off without it. They usually ended up with darker skinned guys. Anyway, hit me up I get off at nine.
"hit me up I get off at nine."
Not. Gonna. Happen. Scram.
"Have you considered the thought that perhaps we don't want our society dragged down by rude lower IQ white people?"
(not that I personally feel this way)
I suspect you are another one of those (no, I will not used the "t" word) who pretends willfully not to understand statistics. I also strongly suspect you are white, not Asian, but that is of less importance to the point here.
White/Asians have comparable IQs; intellectual differences are negligable, and due as much to culture as genetics. Even the 5 point difference is disputable, since certain European countries also score in the 105-107 range. The black/white gap is far greater and blacks have a more narrow curves with the vast majority bunching up in the 80s.
Whites brought the whole modern technological society to Japan, for better or worse, but in recent decades there has been a fairly equilateral exchange between east and west in terms of the arts, sciences, etc. Without blacks, white cities are about as safe as any Asian city. I've been in Europe and mostly white cities in the U.S., and you can walk the streets at night. People told me you could do that almost anywhere in Baltimore until the 1950s. I can't imagine it now.
The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor with technology that had been invented by various whites only 40 years earlier. I suppose you could trace gunpowder back to China, but the connection indirect. The Japanese remade their country with technology and work systems brought to them by whites. China and Japan would still be China and Japan of 150 years ago if they had had no contact with outsiders. They were highly developed in ways, but not in the ways that are considered highly developed today.
Now if whites had had no contact with blacks--well, I leave you to muse on that. Sports and pop music would be poorer in some peoples' opinions.
There is a lot of arguing about how much slavery contributed to the wealth of the U.S. as a whole, but I think we all know we'd all be better off if the Africans had been left where they were and the whites had picked their own cotton. Slavery was a moral blight and a material stupidity. In the long run, the whites are becoming by far the victims. Blacks with even a modicum of intelligence are coddled and actively affirmed at every step. If they refuse to work, taxpayers pay for them from conception to grave, often a brief interval.
sorry to sound so callous, but I worked with blacks who didn't work too much and spent time reading and taking about how to "work the system" so they could get as much from taxpayers as possible. I have friends who were told they could not get assistance with education they desperately needed so that newly arrived El Salvadorans could get tuition grants. This was general.
I am beyond disgusted and beyond "compassion." In this country, no black person need fail. They are netted and not vetted every step of the way.
If whites were to emmigrate in any numbers to Japan--which would be illegal anyway--they would most certainly be sent right back.
Cut the garbage-talk, kramer.
There is a gap between Japanese and whites. Whenever there are international tests, East Asians come out on top. Not just Japan. Hong Kong. Singapore. South Korea. Japanese who can't get into good universities go to America these days because it's easier for them to be at the top academically. Scholarships in Canada are dominated by East Asians. Don't give me this garbage about how the difference is negligible.
The problem is that you are affected personally by facts. I did not say what I said in order to be racist and hateful. I am not racist. I hate stupid people more than I hate anyone of a certain race. I am a software engineer and I work with foreign resident whites, Chinese, and Indians daily.
But don't confuse that with facts. East Asians are thankful that white people invented the technology that we have taken and now dominate internationally with. We're thankful for inventing classical music that we are now dominating in as well. I apologize if I'm starting to sound haughty, but the truth is that we have something to be proud of. We've created an advanced, polite, modern, and safe country in a relatively short time. This is what the IQ gap gives us. This is why the "Asian Tigers" came to exist. I don't think I'm morally superior to anyone because of that. That's just the way it is, and it helped us.
Culture is actually what kept us from advancing the way whites did. Samefor the Chinese. Sailer made a good point in some article of his, the Chinese were too practical, the Indians too abstract, the West had a good formula. But in this day and age of global economies, IQ matters more than ever. That is why Singapore, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, all skyrocket at unprecedented rates in recent history. Where are the Eastern European tigers? Why hasn't Romania shot up in a similar manner? Because the gap exists, and you can't deny it.
An earlier poster said I was just making an "Internet point". He was right. I was merely trying to say that it is hypocritical for whites who complain about immigration to now start discussing how they want to immigrate to Japan.
And as for your whole deal about blacks - I personally don't care. Americans imported thousands of uneducated Africans to their country randomly to do their slave work, and now they're reaping the effects of it.
Takahata,
In fact the nations of Eastern Europe are (or were) doing very well economically in the past few years with growth rates of 5 -10% per annum.
The example you cite, Romania, was one of the best performers.
@Anonymous
I don't discount that they may have had significant growth. I don't know if you thought that I said that no country other than Asian ones would ever develop. The question is the way they developed.
Remember that these Asian tigers are recent developments, and are geographically isolated from the old "first world"....and yet still, today: Singapores nominal GDP per capita: $35,42 , Hong Kong: $29,611 , Japan: $34,402.
Meanwhile Poland, 10,912, Romania, 7,452, Hungary, 13,901. And note these countries are all tied geographically and culturally to their more successful Western brothers.
There is a difference. There is a reason why Westerners were so amazed by the rapid growth and modernization of Japan back then. There is a reason why we, starting out worse than Western Europe, are now more advanced and modern.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone, because I'm not trying to do so. I've tried long and hard not to fall into the typical white man's trap of taking credit for achievements of much better people. But this is just fact.
Takahata,
You conviniently forget that for 50 years all of the east European nations were under the yoke of communism, and prior to that they were mainly agrarian nations with little in the way of industry.In fact rather like North Korea today whose GDP per capita must rate as one of the lowest in the world (that people - in 2009 - actually starve to death there is another matter).
Secondly Hong Kong,Singapore, South Korea et al rise to wealth is only of very rcent provenance.As a schoolboy I well remember Hong Kong being a byword fror wretched poverty.It was the stellar growth rates of the past 25 years that did the trick.
Rapid economic growth is something that has deserted the Japanese recently, but it still (or did) exists in eastern Europe.
"I've tried long and hard not to fall into the typical white man's trap of taking credit for achievements of much better people."
A really brilliant man once said this, I can't remember who...Oh wait, that was me last week.
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