March 15, 2009

Indian immigrant IQ

Jason Richwine writes in Forbes:
Indian Americans: The New Model Minority

But education and culture can take people only so far. To be a great speller--or, more importantly, a great doctor or IT manager--you have to be smart. Just how smart are Indian Americans? We don't know with much certainty. Most data sets with information on ethnic groups do not include IQ scores, and the few that do rarely include enough cases to provide interpretable results for such a small portion of the population.

The only direct evidence we have comes from the 2003 New Immigrant Survey, in which a basic cognitive test called "digit span" was administered to a sample of newly arrived immigrant children. It is an excellent test for comparing people with disparate language and educational backgrounds, since the test taker need only repeat lengthening sequences of digits read by the examiner. Repeating the digits forward is simply a test of short-term memory, but repeating them backward is much more mentally taxing, hence a rough measure of intelligence.

When statistical adjustments are used to convert the backward digit span results to full-scale IQ scores, Indian Americans place at about 112 on a bell-shaped IQ distribution, with white Americans at 100. 112 is the 79th percentile of the white distribution. For more context, consider that Ashkenazi Jews are a famously intelligent ethnic group, and their mean IQ is somewhere around 110.

Given the small sample size, the rough IQ measure and the lack of corroborating data sets, this finding of lofty Indian-American intelligence must be taken cautiously. Nevertheless, it is entirely consistent with their observed achievement.


The New Immigrant Survey is being run out of Princeton. It's one of those massive projects like the 1979 National Longitudinal Study of Youth. It only applies to legal immigrants. The first round of data was collected in 2003, and papers have been coming out for a couple of years. Parts of the Woodcock Johnson IQ test were given to immigrants, as well as the digit span test. The data is available to registered users.

If you know more about this research, such as what other legal immigrant groups scored, please let me know.

I'm guessing that Richwine crunched the numbers himself, because I can't find anything published on them, and he is writing his Ph.D. dissertation at Harvard on IQ and immigration nexus. (Here's Marcus Epstein's VDARE blog post on Richwine's forthright statements at an AEI conference.) The SPLC is already on Richwine's case for uttering hatefacts.

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

57 comments:

Anonymous said...

Look at this work of PC garbage. As best as I can make out, the argument is "Don't point out that anyone is doing well because it implies that others do poorly."

Anonymous said...

"112 is the 79th percentile of the white distribution. For more context, consider that Ashkenazi Jews are a famously intelligent ethnic group, and their mean IQ is somewhere around 110."

Woa, OK, so now Jews are also just part of flyover country. The new Elites are Indians. It would be nice to see that reflected in the MSM, where bashing dumb whites is a national pastime. Unless they are blond, female and have some nice curves. Apparently in that case an 100 IQ does not matter.

Anonymous said...

This makes sense since the average income is around the Ashkenazi income. Although, if it is only for legal immmigrants, maybe the average Indo-American IQ is actually lower than the Ashkenazi IQ level. I would hope they would try to do a study on illegal immigrants as well since there are so many from India when you consider the family members that legal immigrants usually bring in. Many people like to think most Indian immigrants, but they are definitely not legal in America. Most come in on tourist visas to America and overstay. Then, they become legalized. Does anyone they count these types of immigrants legal or illegal?

redblitz said...

Hmm I wonder if they further split the Indians into what region of the country they came from? Recman1 would love that for sure.

I think there are other nefarious political machinations at work for why the Indians are being treated as a 'model minority' ;)

Anonymous said...

That was a very interesting piece of info. Thank you, Steve, for finding it.

Bruce Charlton said...

Unfortunately, forward digit span is not a very good test of anything, and is only poorly (albeit significantly) correlated with 'g' factor general intelligence.

Backwards digit span is a good measure of 'working memory' and has a higher correlation with g.

If this test of immigrants uses only forward digit span (as implied here) this would be evidence of ignorance or incompetence in the test design IMHO.

But digit span (whether forwards or backwards) is not a very good measure of g.

Nonetheless, lacking anything better, this is worthwhile and important information. In my judgment, the conclusion based on forward digits is likely to be valid, but much less precise than it could have been with better test design.

Anonymous said...

Clicking on another article at the site I looked at, I saw a disgusting, dishonest smear against white America from the same author.

In this article, she writes

"Growing up as a Hindu with a name like Piyush (which remains his official name) couldn't have been easy in Louisiana, where two Indian doctoral students were murdered at LSU just last year."

The author saying that having a funny name and dark skin in Louisiana is tough, obviously implying that this is because of white racism. She brings up the story of three Indians killed to demonstrate this fact. I remember this story and who was arrested in connection with these murders and looked it up.

Three African-American youths have been arrested for the brutal slaying of two doctoral students from Andhra Pradesh at the Louisiana State University campus in December 2007.

Could Srivastava have meant that it is tough for Indians being in Louisiana because of the large African American population? If that was what she was saying then why even single out Indians with "funny names" in the first place? It seems that the author wants the reader to walk away from the story believing that the Indians were murdered by whites and targeted because of their racial background.

This is a dishonest, ugly smear against white America.

I hold that the author was either:

1) Ignorant of the fact that these Indian students were likely murdered by blacks. She assumed without any evidence it was whites and that the Indians were killed because of their race
2) Aware of those charged, but didn't care and needed a hate crime to prove White Southerner evil. She was able to find a fake one without actually lying.

I tried my comment at the Root under the newer article expressing my disgust but had trouble registering. This kind of dishonest smear needs to be challenged and I would encourage somebody to do it at The Root (under the new article whose thread is still alive) and link back here.

Anonymous said...

I've been underwhelmed by the inelligence of the Indians I've met. Their "observed achievement" is attributable to other factors, namely American employers fondness for them. Which in turn is tied to the idea that the Indians in America can supply an endless stream of cheap labor via their contacts back home.

They are quite shameless about hiring other Indians once they get into hiring positions. Not that they need to be ashamed of it, since it's what their American employers took them on to do.

rec1man said...

Steve, I have the following detailed data from this project
--

Digit span data (IQ equivalents) by U.S. immigrant group:



Europe 99, Northeast Asia 106, Southeast Asia 104, India 112, sub-Saharan African 89, Mexico 82, Central America/Caribbean 83, South America 86.

--

This test is applied to immigrant children and since regression to the mean is 80%, it reflects more towards the caste average for this caste blend back in India, ( after improving nutrition )
Since children are being tested, it mostly neutralises the effect of very high IQ parent

European children score at 99,
and this does calibrate back on the known European IQ of 100

--

My latest estimates for the Indian diaspora in USA caste blend is

Brahmin 25% ( 5% in India )
Merchant 35% ( 15% in India )
Peasant 35% ( 40% in India )
Dalit, muslim, tribal 5% ( 40% in India )

--

Richard H, this article is by a south asian as per the article
A south asian is a commie, anti-hindu, deracinated self hating upper caste hindu, who wants to embrace islamic Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in the multicultural PC umbrella

This south asian PC umbrella does not expand to include buddhist or hindu nepalese, sri lankans or bhutanese
It is simply a umbrella to offer shelter to south asian muslims

Many of these south asians are active in ACORN and ANSWER

Since US immigration has a law barring commies from immigrating, it is obvious that these south asians hid their commie beliefs to get in into the US

--

redblitz, since 1990, the SAT scores showed Asian hindus matching the jews , but US media and bloggers are just picking it up after 19 years, since US hindu success could no longer be hidden

Engineering college professors were aware of this even by the 1970s due to high GRE scores from south India

My guess for the delayed IQ recognition is due to cultural brainwashing against the hindu religion by xtian missionaries,
Xtian missionaries collect billions of dollars from the US to evangelise hindus and brahmins are their target
Funding for this project would be cut if the US public was aware of
the high IQ of upper caste hindus esp brahmins

Anonymous said...

Looks like AEI is not so bad after all.

Anonymous said...

What's percentile mean?

Bamboozled

Anonymous said...

From the Root article:

Figures like median income are skewed by a few individuals at the top earning extremely high salaries.

GOD, that Root article illustrates that leftists just run verbal macros on demand. They are completely unprepared to fight with a secular rightist.

The median is a *robust estimator* of centrality. The whole point is that changing one data point has a bounded effect on the median, but it has an *unbounded* effect on the mean.

As for the rest, ugh. Same rubbish you'll see at SepiaMutiny. Mr. Richwine, please accept my apology on behalf of rational Indian Americans (just as you might apologize on behalf of your Ashkenazi Jewish community in other contexts). If Richwine sticks to his guns, he could be the next Herrnstein. Just don't apologize when they come gunning for you.

Anonymous said...

Brain drain, see "highest percentage of college educated immigrants, Nigeria".

Anonymous said...

"Indian Americans place at about 112 on a bell-shaped IQ distribution, with white Americans at 100. 112 is the 79th percentile of the white distribution. For more context, consider that Ashkenazi Jews are a famously intelligent ethnic group, and their mean IQ is somewhere around 110.Given the small sample size, the rough IQ measure and the lack of corroborating data sets, this finding of lofty Indian-American intelligence must be taken cautiously. Nevertheless, it is entirely consistent with their observed achievement."

A little bright news on the immigration front. Too bad it's not going to make much of difference given our dive towards the bottom. One of the nice things about Indians is that many are able to assimilate quite well. That said, too many of any particular group is bad for the USA because it enables racial agitators to derail what would otherwise be a successful integration.

Anonymous said...

Reading the SPLC link leads me to suggest their motto should be "Self-delusion and self-congratulation for all."
Maybe a more colorful and descriptive motto would be 'The Knights Who Say Ni!'.

Anonymous said...

From the article RichardH linked: "Figures like median income are skewed by a few individuals at the top earning extremely high salaries."

FAIL FAIL FAIL. Are all journalists this stupid?

Anonymous said...

I wonder how Pakistani do.

Anonymous said...

No one dispute the fact that the legal immigrants from India are highly intelligent (they are also highly selected). The question should be, what is mean IQ to which they would revert back to after a couple of generations. The children of this group would naturally still be higher since they have not completely reverted back to the mean.

Anonymous said...

Yes, but smart indians help other indians, not whites. SO all these studies of 'model minorities' 'helping' the economy never consider the impact on native born americans.

Also, smart doesn't equal fair or nice, or wanting to assimulate as we have painfully learned from the Askanazi. Alan Dershowitz is a smart guy, do we need more people like him?

Tanstaafl said...

How dare we drain india of their best and brightest? For the good of india we must send them all back post haste.

albertosaurus said...

In Lynn's recent book The Global Bell Curve he gives the IQ of Indians in Britain as 92. Recent immigrants, he says, have IQs of only 83.

The study you cite would seem to be at great variance with the work of Lynn and Vanhanen.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the high IQs found in immigrants from India (and also East Asia) and their descendants are also found in the home countries. Or does something in the immigration process select out less intelligent so we get the cream of the crop? Have any studies been done to measure IQs of Asians in Asia?

Anonymous said...

Also, smart doesn't equal fair or nice, or wanting to assimulate as we have painfully learned from the Askanazi. Alan Dershowitz is a smart guy, do we need more people like him?

once Indians reach a critical mass they won't be so concerned about assimilating, their PACs are already becoming increasing militant and usually have ties to the ultra nationalists in India.

Anonymous said...

Whatever their average IQ, clearly there aren't too many Indian Americans in the sub-100 category. I don't ever recall seeing an Indian mechanic or brickmason.

Of course Indian Americans are a select bunch, since many/most were imported specifically for their skills. They aren't representative of the Indians back home, but that doesn't seem to stop a lot of Desi's from thinking themselves Ganesh's chosen.

There is only 1 major IA politician: Gov. Bobby Jindal.

There are only 3-4 IA's on the Forbes 400 (proportional to their population).

There are only 6-7 ethnically Indian Nobel science laureates (forget how many are IA's), from a group that makes up one-fifth of the world's population.

Granted that all of those are, to a degree, lagging indicators.

I suspect that it is a relatively tall, narrow bell curve.

Anonymous said...

Growing up as a Hindu with a name like Piyush (which remains his official name) couldn't have been easy in Louisiana...

If Jindal ever jumps into national politics we will hear a lot of criticism from left-wing Indian Americans over his change in name and religion. They hate him for that. There are even a few Facebook groups dedciated to letting "South Asians" vent against Jindal, and those two factors play no small role in it.

The name change isn't even worth an article. Al Gore never went by Albert. Bill Clinton changed his surname from the bland name of Blythe; and of course he went by Bill, not William. And I won't even get into all the name and religion-related machinations the Clintons engaged in after Bill was defeated in first first gubernatorial re-election.

Besides, "Piyush" has been going by Bobby since at least first grade.

It's funny that Indian Americans are even allowed to ask whether Jindal is "Indian enough." Are we allowed to ask if he - or they - are American enough?

Anonymous said...

South Asian don't assimilated as well as East Asians. Familial pressure to marry within the group is very strong. Regardless of IQ this trait is poisonous in a liberal democracy and should be considered when setting immigration policy.

Anonymous said...

"Whatever their average IQ, clearly there aren't too many Indian Americans in the sub-100 category. I don't ever recall seeing an Indian mechanic or brickmason."

Yes, and clearly it takes a high IQ to be a motel desk clerk or convenience store cashier.

Anonymous said...

Rex Little asked:
"I wonder if the high IQs found in immigrants from India (and also East Asia) and their descendants are also found in the home countries."

Lynn (2005) presents a whole slew of studies conducted from the 1960s to the 2000s on the IQ of Indians in India. Almost all the studies used the Raven's Progressive Matrices, which are a almost purely a measure of g, the general factor of intelligence. He gave the median IQ for the studies as 82 compared to white British and American means of 100, with a range from the high 70s to 88. There was no time trend of rising or dropping scores. Lynn also gives one recent study for Pakistanis in Pakistan with progressive matrices which yielded an average IQ of 84. So, based on the data, South Asians in S. Asia appear to score more than 1 S.D. lower than whites.

Lynn (2005 and 2009) and Jensen (1998) discuss the IQ of South Asians in Britain. They cite a 1985 Study by Makintosh, which found that Indian immigrant children tested at IQ 83 upon first arrival in the UK, but after more than 4 years living in the UK and attending British schools, they scored IQ 97. Pakistani immigrants showed a similar, but smaller improvement (from IQ 93 to IQ 96). Lynn (2005, 2009) cites more recent UK studies of Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi children, many of whom were born and raised in the UK, and found mean IQs of about 92 or 93 (about 1/2 S.D. worse than whites). Jensen notes that this may reflect a different self selection among later immigrants from S. Asia.

Jensen (1998) notes that East Indian in S. Africa score about 1/2 S.D. worse than S. African withes with the same amount of schooling on the Raven's Progressive Matrices.

As for East Asians, there is a lot more data, and yes, they do score better than whites in their home countries than whites. Some of the very high scores reported (i.e., I.Q. 105+) seem to come from either small samples and I question their representativeness (i.e., taking the average IQ in Shanghai to be representative of China as a whole is dubious, because in most countries urban dwellers, particularly in important commerial cities, tend to score higher than their rural countrymen). I still think that Herrnstein and Murrays estimate of an average IQ/g of 103 is the best for East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) as a whole. They do, however, show a weaker verbal factor and much stronger visuo-spatial factor than whites.

rec1man said...

BGC, the test was backward digit span

--
Regarding Nigerians and Pakistanis

Per USA 2007 ACS census Survey

College %, Median Family Income

Indian = 68%, $83K
Pakistani = 52%, $52K
Bangladeshi = 42%, $42K
Nigerian = 54%, $50K

Unlike Indians who have degrees in hard sciences, most Nigerians tend to have degrees in soft humanities fields
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are held back by islam, a lower caste grade of convert from hinduism, and inbreeding due to cousin marriages

---

Left wing Indians and Right wing Indians are mainly divided on the issue of islam

Right wing Indians are moving to the Hindu Label, and dissociating from Indian muslim immigrants
Right wing Indians want ruthless anti-terrorism aimed at US mullahs and mosques
Right Wing Indians dislike Bobby Jindal for apostasy

Whereas Left wing Indians want to also associate with Pakistani and Bangladeshi muslims under the
'south asian' label
Left wing Indians want human rights for terrorism suspects
Left wing Indians dislike Bobby Jindal for being a conservative

---

rec1man said...

Albertosaurus, regarding Lynn
In none of his studies, has he noted the caste composition

India at least has an octomodal IQ curve

Malnutrition in India is as bad as sub-saharan africa,
And we know that Flynn effect adds 10IQ for black americans as compared to black africans

Adding 10 to Lynn's scores will give an Indian IQ of 93 after malnutrition is removed

rec1man said...

Regarding reversion to the mean of Indian IQ

IQ reverts 80% to the mean in 1 generation in the west

In Indian caste populations, IQ is very sticky for several generations
This is probably due to the fact that sub-caste endogamy for over 1000 years has homogenised the population within the sub-caste


I can give an anecdotal history from my subcaste

I got my IQ from my grandfather who got a silver medal in Oxford
80% of his grandchildren scored over 145 IQ as based on GRE
and 60% of his great grandchildren
scored over 145 IQ based on the SAT
My 12 year old niece, took the SAT at 12 and scored 1380 ( verbal+math ) which works out to 135 IQ for a 16 year old and when scaled , to over 160 for a 12 year old

Most of my sub-caste acquaintances
can trace their IQ to a grandfather or great grand father
and IQ seems to be sticky for 3 - 4 generations

Anonymous said...

This reminds me of a scene from the TV show "My Name Is Earl." Earl is in a coma, his ex-wife Joy at his bedside. The doctor, who is obviously South Asian, comes in. Joy says, "uh uh. No WAY! I want a REAL doctor ... a JEWISH doctor!"

The doc, grinning broadly, says, with the utmost pride and confidence, "I'm Indian. We're the NEW Jews!"

I point this out because it's evidence that the implication of Steve's post, un-PC though it may be to voice out loud, has infiltrated the public consciousness. Subtle (not Apu-like) Indian accents are so closely associated with physicians that I suspect they're becoming like the British accents they resemble in making everything the speaker says sound "smart."

Anonymous said...

I don't care how intelligent they are, I don't want them here.

rec1man said...

Steve Wood,
in the latest MD school entrants in the US, Indians are 12%

Ronduck, actually thanks to the internet and offshoring and cost cutting, companies like Office Tiger are hiring in India for a fraction of US wages all kinds of white collar upper middle class jobs

redblitz said...

rec1man I guess you are constantly looking for evidence to prove the superiority of South Indian brahmins with which you clearly identify much more so than with India, whatever state you come from etc. Have you considered the fact that by constantly looking for such data you are being selective and biased, and as such barely objective? I say this because most of these white nationalists are of that same attitude, and clearly it isn't getting them far...

Let's assume you are right, that South Indian brahmins are a high IQ group... how has this helped South India, or India escape overwhelming poverty? There's no point in a few thousand high IQ individuals if there are no paved roads and clean drinking water.

PS I am a Sri Lankan Tamil expat, (neither a brahmin or a lower caste/dalit) my tested IQ score is well above 150 in case you wanted to know =D

rec1man said...

redblitz, as you know they are driven out due to affirmative action

and have no political power
for at least 50 years

For roads and water, ask the voters and the politicians , mostly not of this caste

What they have done for India is develop nuclear weapons

Out of the 12 man team that set off the 1974 nuke blast, 8 were south Indian brahmins

They are also prominent in the setting up the software industry
Cognizant, Infosys etc

So here you have it, the gifts of south Indian brahmins to India -
Nukes and software

Anonymous said...

"There's no point in a few thousand high IQ individuals if there are no paved roads and clean drinking water."

Finally, some sanity in the conversation - thank-you. For once I would like to hear a discussion by the high-IQ expat Indian community on how they are going to tackle the mass poverty and suffering of India, as opposed to just focusing on arguments aimed at whites so that their cousins can be imported into the (IQ inferior, but somehow much more efficient and functioning) West.

Anonymous said...

I know a lot of people from plenty of subcastes from different parts of India, and everybody seems pretty smart to me.....

I know quite a few non-Brahmin South Indians and they've got strong math/technical aptitude too. Their verbal/analytic IQs don't seem that high neccessarily, but their performance IQs can be absolutely astounding. These guys have an eye for complex detail and strong ability for conceptualizing abstract logic.

Asian Indians match Jews in SAT scores, but I'd guess their advantage is primarily on the math side. So if we take IA IQ at 108-109 and assume the advantage is mainly concentrated on the math side, IA math IQ could be maybe a full standard deviation about the white mean.

Anonymous said...

I'm a drunken Irishman and my 1991 SAT score was 1350. You shouldn't have let us in either. Happy St. Patrick's Day!

Anonymous said...

The Age of Fine Print is certainly upon us. About 40 comments, and not a single one shows awareness that Indians are not only the wealthiest ethnic group on average tracked by the Census Bureau, but also the second largest recipients of Affirmative Action preferences, on average, after Alaska natives. This is based on Federal Government contract set asides. And that is only the data that is available. The federal AA bureaucracy has no incentive make this information accessible.

I would love to welcome new Indian immigrants to the USA, the day after they are no longer getting preferences over native born Americans.

Anonymous said...

Cracker Jack,

Try comparing the GPA and MCAT scores of Indian Americans who are denied acceptance to medical school with those of whites given acceptance to medical school. Then we can talk about affirmative action.

Anonymous said...

"Asian Indians match Jews in SAT scores"

According to a 2002 release by the College board, not quite - Jews average 1161 and Asian Hindus average 1110, a 51 point difference. Both groups have virtually identical (and much higher than average) participation rates than the general population.

Anonymous said...

Cracker Jack - are you joking by perhaps mixing Native Americans with Indians from the country of India? This discussion is about Indians from India - as Robin Williams said, "Dot, not feather."

"Dot" Indians are NOT by any means beneficiaries of affirmative action, at least in the context of higher education and state employment. Since they are bunched with Asians, they sometimes have to score higher than whites to gain admission to prestigious universities.

Anonymous said...

Where would the 95th percentile be on the Indian bell curve - 115, perhaps?

That's 5% of India's population, which is 60 million people. 5% of that is 3 million people, and that's the number of people of Indian descent currently living in the United States. Combine the higher IQ's of this very select group with a family-centered culture as yet undefiled by materialism and you get the Indian American success that you see. The ethnic Indians who live in the United States say nothing, IQ wise, about those back in India.

Anonymous said...

On the one hand, Indians in India are mostly poor and score low in IQ tests.

On the other hand, Indians who leave India tend to do well. And this is as true of those who arrive as imported labourers (Caribbean, Uganda) as those who arrive as merchants.

I teach a lot of Indians as well as Pakistani Muslims in the UK. I'm not sure that the Indians I see are inherently much more intelligent than the Pakistanis, but they have some big cultural advantages (ie, not being Muslim) and seem to do better.

Anonymous said...

Cracker Jack, do you have a link? I tried googling but didn\'t see stats.

I find it plausible that the motel and small business owners get the minority business AA money, because they are basically the smartest group that qualifies. Jews do this a lot too, either by using a minority frontman or coming up with some angle; I think Steve had an article a while back on how a Hispanic-surnamed Jew got some big AA money (and there\'s no question it\'s helped guys like Matt Yglesias).

Obviously minority AA money is bullshit and counterproductive, and I do think that Indians (and Jews) can compete academically without such set-asides. On the third hand, there is a good argument to be made about the defenseless guileless WASP beset on all sides by highly intelligent mercantile wheeler dealer minorities, whether they be West or South or East Asian.

On the fourth hand, I\'m not sure that guileless defenseless WASP thing is anything more than a consequence of PC lobotimization...the British East India Company had plenty of guile.

Anonymous said...

Ronduck said...
I don't care how intelligent they are, I don't want them here."



Exactly my thoughts. Why do whites have to argue along the lines of IQ when countries like Saudi Arabia, India, Israel and Japan have rigorous immigration laws and enforcement, and nobody dares call them on it? It’s about cultural compatibility, not IQ.

Anonymous said...

Indians are not whealer/dealer types in general. Most of them make money the traditional way - go to school, work long hours, invest. Middle Easterners and Persians sure, but Indians are unquestionably industrious and self-reliant. Indians have a lower welfare usage rate than whites and almost any ethnic group in the U.S.

I don't understand the vitriol that Rushton, American Renaissance, and HBDers like to direct against Indians.

rec1man said...

headache and Ronduck, at present for
star wars the US imports Southern Brahmins

The late Shiva Subrahmanya , a southern brahmin, ran star wars for the USA for several years

Anonymous said...

I don't understand the vitriol that Rushton, American Renaissance, and HBDers like to direct against Indians.

What vitriol? Suggesting that Indian immigrants are (far) smarter than Indians back home? Suggesting that Indians may be cliquish? Suggesting that immigrants shouldn't get government loans advantageously? Suggesting that Indian companies shouldn't be given H-1B's so that they can send people here to help outsource work to the subcontinent? Suggesting that American companies shouldn't be allowed to bring Indians here in order to undercut American wages? Suggesting that India has no business trying to dictate our immigration policy when their own is quite "racist"?

How is any of that vitriol as opposed to legitimate topics for discussion?

Exactly my thoughts. Why do whites have to argue along the lines of IQ when countries like Saudi Arabia, India, Israel and Japan have rigorous immigration laws and enforcement, and nobody dares call them on it? It’s about cultural compatibility, not IQ.

The irony being that Japan was a major pusher behind the 1965 Hart-Celler Act. They claimed our immigration laws were racist just 2 decades after conducting a deadly, ethnocentric war in Southeast Asia.

B322 said...

They claimed our immigration laws were racist just 2 decades after conducting a deadly, ethnocentric war in Southeast Asia. - Mark

I think the Japanese role in WWII is in the memory hole, filed right next to the Hitler-Stalin pact.

rec1man said...

So why is the same 1965 law so screwed up for all nationalities except Indians

Anonymous said...

So why is the same 1965 law so screwed up for all nationalities except Indians?

Que?

renuka said...

As for Brahmins, they are also a very diverse lot. Brahmins from different regions in India have only started to intermarry recently.
Anyway I do not see why people think rec man is proud? If your peoples have not intermarried for 3000 years that means your ancestors or great grandparents married not just to satisfy lust, but with a view to the formation of the fulture generation, and made very responsible choices. They do not have genetic diseases like Jews and Muslims and Catholics who intermarry because they were smart enough to divide themselves in gotras--one brahmin from one gotra cannot marry within the same gotra--so you avoid diseases from inbreeding.The only people like this I have been are Parsis--they are also very educated, but a mercantile sort of peoples who are good in business, not really scholars or intellectuals--As for Brahmins, they have deteriorated--very few produce greatness anymore--largely because India is in transition and does not have much of an original culture anymore--they are walking shadows of their former selves, but it does not mean that the 3000 year old genes does not cease produce smart people--when they are smart, they can be very smart---but not all are so, depending on how they are raised...
Moreover, if Indians are cliquish and do not marry here so easily, it is because they take marriage seriously--it is hard to find Americans who are not the products of divorce, or born out of wedlock, kids here start having sex as teenagers, live with each other without getting married --Indians are still traditional--which is why they perhaps are cliquish. You are also expected to take care of your parents and not place them in nursing homes--this is family loyalty. I recall my mother telling not to marry an American, not because they are not good people, but because the marriage is most likely to end in divorce--so faced with this option, most Indians like to marry within their own community, where divorce is still very uncommon. As for manners and such, I have seen very rude Indians and they are an embarrassment--they need to learn some manners in many cases.
Moreover, Indians are diverse and most like to marry withing their own sub-communities and are very divided amonst themselves in this way--the Sikhs marry Sikhs, Jains marry Jains and such...So even some Indians seem cliquish to other Indians...
As for the intelligence of Ashkenazi Jews, it is a product of intermarriage with Europeans...do you think Jews who have remained in the Mid-East are as intelligent? I do not think so. There is not much that is really Jewish but the Old Testament...the rest comes from learning from Europeans...I think that Jews are above others in intelligence is a recent misconception...they are intellegent surely, not not more so than others.

renuka said...

Someone said India has strict immigration policies? Where did you get this from? From some Marxist website? This must be a joke right? India is flooded by millions of illegal immigrants from Bangladesh. India accepts everyone--even people from Pakistan and Arab countries--you just have to go to Kashmir and see that those Jihadis howling for sepratism are not even from Kashmir, but many from Arab countrires...India has the most liberal immigration policy in the world....

Venkat Ramanan said...

Best brains from India enter US for higher education/R&D or work. No wonder Indian immigrant in US has a higher IQ

Anonymous said...

India was the most technologically advanced nation, along side China for a long time, thus it is evident, in the future, with improvements in education,prenatal care, nutrition, sanitation and living standards, that the IQ of 85-86.5 for India's impoverished masses can be equal to the Chinese or at least closer to the IQ of 100. What we do know, is that lower caste people, who were sent over to Britain, score 83 in the first generation, but the Flynn Effect rises their IQ scores up to 97. Thus it is safe to assume, that the Indian IQ of the lower caste is somewhere in the vicinity of 97. Due to the Overepresentation of UK Indians in many high IQ positions, there seems to be alot of variance with the IQ of 97, so it is safe to say that Indians score in the UK, in the second generation or so, at 97-112. Lets not forget the Flynn Effect will probably raise that 97 IQ higher.