I'm totally out of touch on this subject, so let me ask commenters for ways for young men to come up with "interests" to put in personal ads beyond Tom Clancy and Van Halen, interests that might incline young women to think they might have something to talk about with you if you were to get together. My guess is that my median unmarried male reader is not a Roissy-style silver-tongued devil who can improvise brilliantly on every woman's favorite subject (Let's Talk About Me!), but instead prefers something slightly impersonal to discuss when first getting acquainted.
I'll give you two possibilities to get started:
I'll give you two possibilities to get started:
1. For example, develop some level of expertise in the architectural history of where you live. Architecture is aesthetic, yet manly. Not that many girls know much about architecture relative to their other aesthetic interests, but they are naggingly aware that they should know more. (Obviously, if you live in Chicago, you will have more to talk about than if you live in Palmdale, so your mileage may vary.) For example, the recent indie romantic-drama hit, 500 Days of Summer, uses architectural fandom, with LA's rather spotty downtown carefully framed to look like downtown Chicago, as the basis for a rather nerdy young man's appeal to Zoey Deschanel.
An interest in architecture also provides a high-minded excuse to talk about what every 20 or 30 something is actually fascinated by: real estate. What neighborhoods will go up in value, which ones down? Architecture appreciation provides an excuse to stroll around gentrifying but still slightly edgy neighborhoods on cheap dates.
2. Read Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen (or at least watch one of the 3 movie/TV adaptions of the last two decades). It's really witty, it's increasingly influential (it's the touchstone for popularizations of evolutionary psychology, among much else), and it will teach you a lot about the feminine mind. Plus, girls like it!
Now, what's the worst that could happen? These two suggestions might totally fail to help you with the ladies, but you will still have learned something of the architecture of your town and you will have read one of the great books in the English language.
That about exhausts my list of suggestions. What are yours?
Now, what's the worst that could happen? These two suggestions might totally fail to help you with the ladies, but you will still have learned something of the architecture of your town and you will have read one of the great books in the English language.
That about exhausts my list of suggestions. What are yours?
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136 comments:
Who needs Roissy when you've got Steve Sailer's dating tips?
There is really only one video adaptation of Pride & Prejudice that matters, and its climax is the chick-flick equivalent of the fight between Hector & Achilles in the Iliad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF3ueHjUc3k
I'd suggest old movies and home renovation.
Old Movies have great fashion that even modern females swoon over and lots of non-PC stuff that appeal to more manly tastes, plus some terrific sexual innuendo. My girlfriend is head over heels for a guy who introduced her to vintage movies (Double Indemnity, Billy Budd--Mehlville, no less!, and Hitchcock). I'd recommend The Big Sleep, The Maltese Falcon, Casablanca (though that's more of a chick flick) and my personal favorite, Gun Crazy.
And home renovation doesn't necessarily have to mean too much more these days than being willing to paint kitchen cabinets, or hook up a woman's computer (more of a "re-do", really). If you've ever spruced up your own place a bit, you probably qualify. You get to use power tools while adding value to your property, too.
Pets are a big plus if you're an animals lovers, though they can prove perilous if it turns out your Rottie wants to kill her Abyssinian.
One of the few things I remember from three years in art school was an architecture professor who showed slides of various houses and dated their construction to within 10 years based on certain architectural details that went in and out of fashion. It impressed me, so maybe it would impress a woman.
In scanning the personals I always suspect that a woman is obese if she lists "dining out" and "relaxed evenings at home" among her interests. A person should list at least one thing that suggests they're healthy enough to engage in sexual activity, as they say in the Viagra ads.
It may not help with an ad, but I'd recommend watching Christopher Reeve in "The Bostonians" as Basil Ransom. The things he said to that girl stayed with me for days, y'all.
"You were meant for love for a man. You were meant for me" he said after courting for awhile to a. win her over from the feminists and b. stately clearly his feelings. She immediately bolted, but was won in the end.
Interests? Simply show respect for what she's interested in, ask questions, and let her talk. This was the advice my mom gave me for men when I asked her as a teen what made her so popular with the fellows. It's one of the few things that works equally well for both sexes. It's just human nature, I guess, to think well of those who like you.
I do think Steve's suggestions are good, but I would avoid stating one dogmatically hates something women tend to like: we are NOT going to that museum with all the Tiffany glass. I HATE all that romantic stuff.
My sister's boyfriend said this to her and she felt compelled to lie and say she thought it was okay (she loves this particular museum).
For example, develop some level of expertise in the architectural history of where you live. Architecture is aesthetic, yet manly. ,,,
Better yet, pretend to be seriously shopping for an upscale house.
Ask her to go to some open houses ( r. e. for sale ) with you.
Keep it generic. Say "I like to read," or "I like to listen to music." That will prompt a woman to ask "What authors/musicians do you like?" Once a woman responds, you've got a conversation started.
I got a lot more responses to my Plenty of Fish profile when it was short and non-specific, vs. when it was longer and more detailed.
It seems to me the best example of people of the opposite sex with similar interests are movie stars. Lets see, the worse, least durable joinings in the universe. Both are consumed by the same art, the scripts, the techniques, the locations and lifestyle, similar earning power and hence similar opportunity for high expense leasure. Haven't you ever heard that opposites attract?
A lawyer I worked for owned a boat. He said his two daughters never took one iota interest in the boat or fishing - until they dated guys who were impressed with the family boat. Then they were out with him and thir S.O. every weekend.
This is good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JdPvyy93I
Having read something in common can be big. In my dating days, now long past, one woman liked me because we both liked Faulkner, one because I had read Huckleberry Finn seriously, and one because I had read the staggeringly obscure Tippu Tip and the East African Slave Trade. Another took up with me mostly I think because she met me in church. dave.s.
I've noticed that dogs/pets make a great neutral discussion topic between the sexes since lots of people own them and are interested in them. It doesn't help me much since I hate dogs but it's a good topic overall.
You know your readers better than I, Steve, but I would never have gauged from the comments I read that the median unmarried male who reads your stuff would find conversation of any kind difficult.
TV: Mad Men, The Closer, Burn Notice, and NCIS. (Breaking Bad is too violent) And of course--Law & Order. Preferably the mother ship. Reality TV is okay, but women tend to watch Project Runway, which is a bit too, er, gay.
Books: You don't have to so much read the NY Times bestseller list as read the reviews and know what's hot.
Any solid interest in movies is a winner, regardless of genre.
Music--the more esoteric, the better. This is weird, but whatever.
Politics: talk about politics and the game, rather than your own personal views. Will the Dems keep the Senate? Why or why not?
I don't recommend either architecture or Jane Austen (too restrictive).
Have at your disposal a dozen or so small, out of the way but popular eateries in your area that you can take her to. Bonus points if you can be the only white couple in an all ethnic place -- SWPL chicks slaver over that kind of shit. Never ask her where she wants to eat or what she's in the mood for. Just get her in the car and tell her she's gonna love it.
Steve, its not about "connecting" to a woman based on shared interests -- that's something from thirty years ago.
It's about demonstrating higher value.
So, I would suggest, learn to play, a musical instrument, something "sexy" that is not a guitar. Like Sax, or Trumpet, or even violin (Charlie Daniels?)
Mention that you play in a local band (it would take about 5 years to create competence and then form a band, provided you practice in a dedicated matter). Provide a link the to MySpace/Facebook page.
Other things: Motocross, or street motorcycle (Amateur) racing. BASE Jumping, or Whitewater kayaking. Even SCUBA fits this. One female acquaintance of mine on why she selected her fiancee: "As soon as I knew he did race motorcycles, I was never going to let any other woman have him." I saw another friend work his Whitewater kayaking near-death experience into many, many moves that turned out successful.
It's not about connecting. Its about demonstrating value. Women are the buyers. Men are the sellers. Their wares better stand out, as sexy-dangerous. Or artful-skillful.
Personal ads are for the most part a waste of time for young men. With a few narrow exceptions, there are just too few women using them who are young childless and not completely unattractive.
The few somewhat attractive young women who use ads tend to have long laundry lists of qualities they want in a man. Which disqualify 99% of men. Or they use the personal ad as an ego boost from getting lots of male attention.
Oh, and when Miss Elizabeth Bennet let's lose the phrase: "had you behaved in a more gentleman-like manner..."
...that's where Achilles chases Hector three times around the walls of Troy.
Be gay. Or pass and let them 'convert' you.
Roissy? You mean a guy who hangs out with sluts, then determines all women are sluts?
yeah I dunno how much he's proving
If you're a dog owner with a well-behaved dog, dog parks are great places to meet women. Animals socializing with each other are automatic ice breakers.
As someone pointed out in a previous thread, hiking and other outdoor activities are great as well, especially if you authentically enjoy them. You'll be meeting someone who's likely to be a: physically fit and b: have a shared interest with you.
If you're a serious science fiction/fantasy fan, the whole fandom subculture is a great place to meet people, from the message boards to the conventions. Look particularly for shows, movies, and book series that aren't completely idiotic but have strong female fanbases. Female nerds might not be as pretty on average, but they'll likely be smart, lovely people with a shared interest.
The real problem IMO is that a lot of young men have been socialized by movies and television to think that dweeby, unattractive guys with no particular career prospects are entitled to date supermodel-level ladies. Newsflash: unless you're rich, superconfident, charismatic or cool, try and date someone who's about as attractive as you are.
I was a supershy dweeby sci fi nerd through my teen and young adult years, but I was lucky enough to be have high cheekbones and a skinny, athletic frame, so all it took was a black leather jacket to have girls mistake my terminal shyness for being brooding and mysterious (best purchase I ever made!). But if you're putting yourself out there, be realistic about your prospects and what you actually want out of a relationship.
Sailer sounds like the good dads of a vanished epoch. That ain't a bad thing.
Know food or quality booze.
Here is some good courtship advice.
I read Pride and Predjudice. Can't say I cared for it too much. Didn't hate it though (unlike Wuthering Heights). Neither of them got me any nookie incidentally.
Okay, it's been a long time since I was on a first date, but your suggestions strike me as really bad.
I doubt most women know enough about the history of architecture to hold a conversation about it, and there is nothing more eye glazingly agonizing than listening to the monologue of a guy who studied up on a topic he thinks will impress you. I also doubt most young people are interested in talking about real estate until they're ready to buy, and probably your first date target audience isn't that settled down.
Jane Austin is also bad, because everyone knows that everyone knows that is what chicks like, and putting it in your profile is too obviously an attempt to tell a chick what she wants to hear.
I can imagine holding a fun conversation about different neighborhoods and the pros and cons of living in each (since this appeals to renters as well as buyers). To signal an interest in talking about this, you could put in your personal something about "a passion for this great city in all its variety, from afternoon walks in [neighborhood by a park] to midnight drinks in [neighborhood with nightlife]".
You cold also talk about liking to dance, because dancing is fun. (But then of course once you meet her you'd better be able to back it up.) Animals is also a good one for many people.
You can talk about your family: cute stories about yourself from your childhood, funny things your niece said to you, traditions your brother and you still keep up.
Also, I would not write off talking about her as the province of silver tongued devils. How hard is it really to say "Really? Tell me more." If she's talking about herself, she's steering the conversation and it's twice as easy for you.
I imagine either of these two interests will get one immediately characterized a beta.
Off-topic, but I noticed a strange alteration of a story at the NY Post today.
It originally said that some Mennonite girls joined in the protest of the Ground Zero Victory Mosque, as can be seen in this screen shot of the NY Post search engine:
A group of young Mennonite girls were gathered around singing Christian songs, outfitted in 19th century long dresses and bonnets.
But subsequently that reference to the Mennonite girls was completely scrubbed from the article.
Really, really strange.
Say that you like WICKER PARK.
Okay, I found the original, longer version of the NY Post article in the cache at Bing.
It's almost as though they deleted the descriptions of the Victory Mosque protesters [to include the descriptions of the Mennonite girls] because they were concerned for the protesters' safety [in the face of Muslim reprisals].
"Who needs Roissy when you've got Steve Sailer's dating tips?"
Who needs Roissy period? He has a few good tips for picking up either the young and not yet fully formed or the generally skanky, but mostly its bitter ranting, seemingly due to his own personal situation. Hey, we're all grateful for the tips, but dial it down. He comes off as one step away from being one of those guys who blows away a bunch of women because he is pissed at his life and blames them.
Seems to me once you reach this level of self-assessment, you've lost the battle.
Just have arranged marriages. Romatic love doesn't work. Look at the divorce rate. I don't come to this site to read about dating.
------Some Female Says
Roissy is a silver tongued devil? If it’s repeated enough, people will believe it – apparently that’s how HBD/Game blogland works. That which people most try to present themselves as (alpha!), is that which they are least secure about.
--------End Some Female
A good way to get along well with women, including those who agree with you on key issues (e.g. borders/limited immigration, fiscal conservativism) is to tell them to Go Reproduce Themselves. It’s done wonders for the marginal right (oh wait...)
Jane Austen? Shall we bust out the lace doilies next? Some females are badass in nature (no Dworkin) and the right (at least the marginal right - the Tea Partiers etc seem better in this respect) has no place for that (Good Female roles being limited to those of a Submissive Helpmeet Squadron nature), hence even women who may strongly disagree with the left on some issues view it as the default place to go.
Sincerely,
Some Virago
Forget about Jane Austen or architecture unless you are dating a graduate student.
You have to read a woman the way a con artist reads a mark. After all, you are trying to trick something of value out of her -- time and sex. Get her to talk first. Then improvise based on the first 100 words that come out of her mouth. If she talks about her family, talk about yours -- real or imaginary. If she gushes over the puppy somebody walks by with, talk about how much you'd like to go to the Westminster Dog Show. If she seems particular about food, talk about the recipes, restaurants, and markets you know. But don't go too far down any particular avenue of conversation. Pick up on her desire to change the subject, based on body language and eye movement.
Humorous current events are good conversation starters, fillers, and gauges of general interest. And don't ever, ever appear intense about anything. You may think this makes you appear brilliant and focused, but it's more likely you'll just come across as monomaniacal and weird.
1. Travel
2. Music
Be interested in sports, especially football. Although women generally aren't as interested in sports as men are, they go for men who are sports fans. Being into sports shows that a man is reasonably normal in his outlook and probably isn't some nonconformist weirdo.
Peter
I think you already hit it: Jane Austin and real estate.
Food. Particularly some type or style of food or some regional cuisine, e.g.g., wine, gourmet cheese, artisanal bread, Italian cooking (not the kind on the Sopranos, but the kind in the coffee-table "culinary tour of Italy" books), whatever. Even barbecue will do. The key thing is to develop (or fake) enough expertise to be snobbish about some of what's available and enthusiastic about some of the rest.
Most women are obsessed with food (eating or not eating it, depending), love to watch the food channel, and are quite eager to discuss food, food preparation, food politics (Pollan), food tourism, restaurants, dieting, etc. Once the woman gets started the man need only provide occasional grunts and/or disdainful remarks.
An food interest can justify cheap dates like strolling in a farmers' market and may justify wine-tasting or wine-shop/bar cruising which is very "romantic" (and gives the woman a chance to get tipsy as an excuse for sex).
It's easy to pick up some food-related expertise or at least talking points. You only have to read one or two books or maybe five magazine articles to know more about your chosen food specialty than 90% of non-obese women. (If you specialize in BBQ you don't even have to read anything ;-)
Anyway, it's easy to add a cool-sounding food interest to a personal ad:
"Likes: Van Halen, XBox, and Provençal cuisine. I choose a new chèvre each week, and I'm always looking for the perfect salad Niçoise."
(Be sure to copy and paste in the words with the accented characters-- those drive girls wild.)
Women are crazy for gourmets. If the man plays his cards well the woman may even try to cook for him. Roissy would know how to damn her efforts with faint praise.
However, there is one food interest a man should not emphasize initially: beer. Of course most men like to drink beer but in the minds of women that's right back to Van Halen territory.
Men who are serious about beer should talk up something which is properly eaten with beer (e.g., Korean BBQ) and use that as a lead-in to beer snobbery.
No, you're way off. A guy has to state he's into world travel and fine dining. The implication is that he's paying for all this, as a gentleman always does. Having deep pockets is what's being suggested and is sure to trigger a lot of inquiries. Having intellectual interests are of value insofar as they connote a man with a better educational background, again implying a man with a probable higher income. The usual claimed love of walking on the beach is lame and just a ruse. How many women do you actually see doing the beach walk for more than ten minutes? No, they're looking for the good life and need someone to make it happen.
Michael Blowhard is always suggesting cooking classes and their ilk. These days, I think this is especially quite a good suggestion as cooking and foodie culture is very big with a lot of girls (in a stunning and welcome turnaround), especially the upper middle class/indie/post-hipster type. It's also something that's worthwhile in its own right, gives you an opportunity to demonstrate mastery, and makes it more likely you'll end up with a wife who can cook. You might want to peruse some authoress photos on a few food blogs for inspiration.
Similarly you might try language classes. I'm a language teacher and I almost feel guilty about the amount of adultery I've facilitated in night classes over the years. Girls love this stuff and especially its implied connection with travel. (And for the record, Roissy fanboys, "I love travelling!" =/ "I am a slut", despite the popular mythology here.)
Pindar and Hölderlin. Chicks love poetry.
I see Veracitator beat me to the mark and stated his case very well. Gentlemen: read it, learn it, live it.
John Seiler: I was a Classics major and even went to grad school for it and have never met a girl interested even slightly in Pindar. I see through your dada prankishness, sir!
married female said..."Okay, it's been a long time since I was on a first date, but your suggestions strike me as really bad.
I doubt most women know enough about the history of architecture to hold a conversation about it, and there is nothing more eye glazingly agonizing than listening to the monologue of a guy who studied up on a topic he thinks will impress you."
But that wasn't Steve's suggestion. What he actually said was: "For example, develop some level of expertise in the architectural history of where you live." [emphasis added]
I love exploring local architectural history and I know lots of other women who do, too. And women far outnumber men on the many house tours I've taken. So I think his suggestion is a good one.
If you are having a conversation about literature or architecture on your first few dates then you have made a serious error. The woman you want isn't going to be into serious literature--the woman who is into serious literature isn't the woman you want. Even Jane Austen, who is mostly 18th century Ultra Lite, is way too literary. And you really don't want to express an interest in the sort of fiction modern women read (more likely you should tease her about it).
Women are naturally submissive. (Let's ignore the neurotic ones for now; it's not like you want to marry these harpies.) They will take on your interests if they find you magnetic and commanding--and somewhere out there is a woman who will find you magnetic and commanding, now matter how hard you make it for her. Dating is more or less about what you don't do--don't complain, don't discuss your past relationships, don't seem weak or diffident, don't badmouth your own family, don't hang on her opinion of...whatever. If she's dating you because she wants her personal beliefs validated, she's not for you. Trust me.
What women like is when you know what they want without them telling you, so for heaven's sake, don't ask! You'll just have to keep dating until you figure it out--it's not terribly complicated. Woman is not a mystery--more like a word find puzzle.
Oh, and for god's sake don't talk about politics. If she agrees with you then you can never disagree with her again, and if she disagrees she'll probably never return your calls. But most women will just try their best not to seem bored by your blogesque monologues.
Roissy and the other pick-up guys write about the real issue guys have with women in approach and making the five second cut.
Steve's suggestions don't help, and as OneSTDV suggests, probably hurt in marking a guy as beta.
You meet a girl. You have to approach. Initiate. It might be day, might be casual, the coffee place or Trader Joes or wherever. Even Church. You have five seconds to convince her you don't go in the discard bin, after which you never EVER climb out. Since she has so many other options, if she's merely passably attractive (5-6) due to hypergamy, anonymity, and the obesity epidemic.
Building rapport is not "sharing interests" (that's a typical male mistake), and that comes far later. The personals, a girl who is a mere 5 will thousands of guys messaging her. Roissy even linked to a guy who built a profile that worked (he was married) on one of these sites, and the success of Ashley Madison ought to disabuse anyone that the PUA scene "only deals with bar sluts."
It is first and foremost, making the cut. Getting past those five seconds. Showing intrigue, high value, selling yourself as something to be bid on and bought.
Appearance, grooming, posture, voice (Acting Class helps), sales jobs, all combine to make the approach solid and winning.
"You know your readers better than I, Steve, but I would never have gauged from the comments I read that the median unmarried male who reads your stuff would find conversation of any kind difficult."
I agree. One area I learned to master early on was how to let women talk about whatever is on their mind while making leading comments and following along. It's a 180 from most what she has experienced with most guys (trying desperately to impress on a first date), takes little effort, and gives you important deal-breaker info so that you can avoid wasting time with them.
Also, don't worry if she likes you, it doesn't matter. You are evaluating her to see if she makes your cut, and the entire power dynamic shifts, and she subconsciously tries to make herself more appealing to regain favor, and get the attention she thrives on. Stunning women are especially susceptible when they detect a take it or leave it attitude. Witty banter is catnip for every type of woman.
Language classes would certainly seem a good idea, if a statistic which I've noticed is typical more widely: i.e., women greatly outnumbering men at these events.
The success or failure of such classes from a dating point of view does, however, depend largely upon the level of bossiness demonstrated by the female (it's for some reason always a female) organizing them. Unfortunately it is not wholly unknown for the female boss at such events to be a dominatrix of vaguely lesbian appearance - a sort of downmarket V. Sackville-West - who uses the class's website to issue whining ukazes like "This is not a dating agency." If that's the case, forgeddaboudit.
I once fell into a delightful and protracted conversion with a lady of about my own age who happened to be next to me in the last-minute discount seats at ... the opera.
Yeah, yeah, I know, opera is said to be strictly for homos etc. But it ain't necessarily so. This particular encounter never did lead to anything, but if you can get past the limp-wristed element in opera appreciation I wouldn't rule out operatic performances as a way for single men to meet agreeable single women.
Several major opera composers were, as a matter of seldom-remembered history, Alpha Males: Wagner, Verdi, Rossini, Puccini, Debussy, Janacek. (Then again, there was always Benjamin Britten. Ah well.)
Obviously, if you live in Chicago, you will have more to talk about than if you live in Palmdale, so your mileage may vary.
Hahaha, I'm not an anti-American, at least when it comes to Paleos, but that made me chuckle living in Germany. From Europe, all US cities look like the modern sector of Frankfurt, just high-rises and dinky wooden houses. Sorry if I offend anyone, I couldn't help.
I agree with Steve, architecture is a cool hook coz good architecture has a solid engineering and materials component.
ppl don't come here to discuss the fine art of dating..
we come hear to re-affirm our racialism and racial grievances.
What could Obama possibly do that would mobilize his political base and put his opponents on the defensive? Appoint Elizabeth Warren to start running the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau immediately.
Steve, I love you on 99% of other issues but I'm not sure you understand...
Thing is, "making an effort" = FAIL.
The more they see you trying, the more you look desperate/sketchy/loserish/beta.
Serenading? Paying attention to her interests? Engaging her in deep conversation?
FAIL on like three levels.
Numero uno, a man who seeks a woman he can engage in conversation is wasting his time. Women just aren't interested in the same things men are. They are turned off by talk of politics, math, abstractions, controversy. And definitely don't talk controversial political abstractions which depend on math to fully understand, like HBD.
Maturity means realizing that at their best women can cook, clean, and take care of the kids. Not most modern women, but the best ones at least. Don't expect them to be rocket scientists or interesting conversationalists. Just go for pretty and loyal. That's enough, you can get your deep discussions about holonomic constraint solvers at the office.
Numero dos, a woman who sees a man trying to impress her *with conversation* loses all respect for him. Whiskey and Roissy are 100% right on this one, it's all about DHV: demonstrating higher value. That means being as muscular, wealthy, charismatic, and dashing as you can be. It assuredly does not mean making an effort. It means making an anti-effort, in which you make the woman exert effort.
You are high energy and your life is a great fun ride and if she asks very nicely she can be let on but she should always know that she can be booted and another woman can get on at a moment's notice.
Hook her and then neglect her if you want to keep her. It sounds crazy, but the modern American woman is just not mature enough to handle positive feedback. A man who you help thinks of you as his friend and will work with you to attack common obstacles. A woman who you help thinks of you as a chump, and she just can't help it. She's been taught to reject the teachings of her mother and grandmother, so her hypergamous tendencies are just completely unchecked.
Numero tres, "making an effort", wow, your normally perspicacious powers of observation are 100% inverted if you think that's the problem with young men today. The issue is them putting forth TOO MUCH effort in courting the confused harridans who issue forth from our nations' institutions of higher learning. These young men are themselves confused, having seen Hollywood romantic comedies that make women out to be enthusiastic for the serenade or the gentle words.
Hells no, Mr. Sailer. Young men need to take their balls back and that means NOT "making an effort". Men provide and invent and create...and shield and fight and protect. After the financial collapse the artificial system which props up the single woman and the cad at the expense of the hard-working beta will fall, and the solid beta will have his day. But till then betas would be well advised to man the hell up.
Steve, I love you on 99% of other issues but I'm not sure you understand...
Thing is, "making an effort" = FAIL.
The more they see you trying, the more you look desperate/sketchy/loserish/beta.
Serenading? Paying attention to her interests? Engaging her in deep conversation?
FAIL on like three levels.
Numero uno, a man who seeks a woman he can engage in conversation is wasting his time. Women just aren't interested in the same things men are. They are turned off by talk of politics, math, abstractions, controversy. And definitely don't talk controversial political abstractions which depend on math to fully understand, like HBD.
Maturity means realizing that at their best women can cook, clean, and take care of the kids. Not most modern women, but the best ones at least. Don't expect them to be rocket scientists or interesting conversationalists. Just go for pretty and loyal. That's enough, you can get your deep discussions about holonomic constraint solvers at the office.
Numero dos, a woman who sees a man trying to impress her *with conversation* loses all respect for him. Whiskey and Roissy are 100% right on this one, it's all about DHV: demonstrating higher value. That means being as muscular, wealthy, charismatic, and dashing as you can be. It assuredly does not mean making an effort. It means making an anti-effort, in which you make the woman exert effort.
You are high energy and your life is a great fun ride and if she asks very nicely she can be let on but she should always know that she can be booted and another woman can get on at a moment's notice.
Hook her and then neglect her if you want to keep her. It sounds crazy, but the modern American woman is just not mature enough to handle positive feedback. A man who you help thinks of you as his friend and will work with you to attack common obstacles. A woman who you help thinks of you as a chump, and she just can't help it. She's been taught to reject the teachings of her mother and grandmother, so her hypergamous tendencies are just completely unchecked.
Numero tres, "making an effort", wow, your normally perspicacious powers of observation are 100% inverted if you think that's the problem with young men today. The issue is them putting forth TOO MUCH effort in courting the confused harridans who issue forth from our nations' institutions of higher learning. These young men are themselves confused, having seen Hollywood romantic comedies that make women out to be enthusiastic for the serenade or the gentle words.
Hells no, Mr. Sailer. Young men need to take their balls back and that means NOT "making an effort". Men provide and invent and create...and shield and fight and protect. After the financial collapse the artificial system which props up the single woman and the cad at the expense of the hard-working beta will fall, and the solid beta will have his day. But till then betas would be well advised to man the hell up and stop prostrating himself before women.
Assyrian Ceramics and rugby.
One STDV said... I imagine either of these two interests will get one immediately characterized a beta.
Oh noes!!! Not THAT!!! Anything but THAT!!!! The horror, the horror....
*facepalm*
Years ago I read an autobiographical essay by a pleasantly heterosexual actor (not a movie star, though he had occasional cinematic gigs, but mainly a character actor on the stage) whose preferred pick-up line - probably very successful - for women was "That's enough of me talking, now you tell me, what did you think of my performance?" Can't remember the fellow's name (he was the sort of actor who took pride in disappearing underneath his roles) but given his level of wit, I've often wondered what happened to him.
"Architectural history"? "Pride and Prejudice"?
That may work fine for the right half of the Bell Curve in San Francisco.
Proof that you have a good job and enough cash to support a wife and two kids is an uncommonly strong aphrodisiac for left half of the Bell Curve in my town.
I was a supershy dweeby sci fi nerd through my teen and young adult years, but I was lucky enough to be have high cheekbones and a skinny, athletic frame, so all it took was a black leather jacket to have girls mistake my terminal shyness for being brooding and mysterious (best purchase I ever made!).
It worked for you too, eh?
I started to get a clue at 18, had it mostly down by 19.
Body's the other biggie. In addition to being painfully shy (though only around girls), I was also painfully skinny. Developing a muscular (but still lean) physique helped so much it's embarrassing.
Whiskey,
Higher value, you got it.
The biggest thing, though, is to make her feel special. I don't mean "supplicate" or do anything "direct." I'm referring to what she feels as a result of being with you. If your value is sufficiently greater than hers, she feels special just because you're talking to her. For the rest of us, there's a bit more work required. No set rules on this as it depends on her "type" and the value differential -- well, there are "outlines," but I'm not giving up my secrets.
sabril,
Don't worry about what they say they want. You think they really even know themselves? A few do; most don't have a clue, or, if they like you enough, even care.
I don't know to what degree this article is for real and what to degree it is simply trying to be contrarian, but I found it interesting:
http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/17/austens-dangerous-books-for-boys/
Excerpt: "Benjamin Disraeli read Pride and Prejudice 17 times, and Matthew Arnold and John Henry Newman read Mansfield Park every year. The historian Thomas Babbington Macaulay read Austen obsessively and, as a colonial administrator in India, wrote letters home comparing various colleagues to characters in Emma and Pride and Prejudice. None of them are known to have covered the books in plain brown paper."
"Several major opera composers were, as a matter of seldom-remembered history, Alpha Males: Wagner, Verdi, Rossini, Puccini, Debussy, Janacek."
Sure, if it's in a time and place where that's appreciated, it'll be like being Michael Douglas or Francis Ford Coppola today.
"A man who you help thinks of you as his friend and will work with you to attack common obstacles. A woman who you help thinks of you as a chump, and she just can't help it."
I totally agree and this one depressing fact probably would have made me switch to being gay if I had that inclination.
I've lost count of the number of times I've become friendly with a pretty girl; there was obvious mutual attraction; I did something nice for her; and she immediately lost interest in me.
However, there is one decent loophole in this rule, which occurs if (1) you convince the girl to have sex with you first; and (2) she's not a complete slut.
In that case you have much more latitude in doing nice things for her without her seeing you as a chump. But you still can't go overboard.
"Forget about Jane Austen or architecture unless you are dating a graduate student."
I had very little success with women until I hit graduate school, and then the doors opened. So I'd say, go for graduate students! Even feminists: if you can get a humorous anti-feminist thing going, they will love you. It's almost a bad-boy thing, but available to relatively bookish guys. You must take up at least one physical hobby like mountain biking or something, and stay in decent shape.
"Don't worry about what they say they want. You think they really even know themselves? "
Of course not, but with personal ads, it doesn't really matter.
Let's suppose that a reasonably attractive girl places a personal ad with a laundry list of requirements. (By "reasonably attractive" I mean that she is under the age of 30; childless; and not obsese.)
In that case, she will be deluged with responses from guys, many of whom superficially meet her requirements. What she will do next is to eliminate any man who is not tall, handsome, and financially secure. Why not? She has gotten hundreds of replies and there isn't time to sift throught them all looking for men who are interesting. Even if she is commitment-minded, she will still do this because it's just too time-consuming to go through hundreds of messages and try to guess which guys are commitment-minded.
Instead, she will pick out a few of the most attractive men, respond to them, and figure she will probably find a commitment-minded man among them, or whatever personality traits she finds attractive.
Of course, the problem is that a man who is physically attractive enough to get lots of responses with a personal ad is very unlikely to be commitment-minded. Because if he were, he would have been married long before he got involved in personal ads.
So our hypothetical girl gets humped and dumped again and again, and concludes that men are jerks. Meanwhile, there are many average-looking guys who get little or no attention from personal ads, even though they would have made better boyfriends or husbands.
For a typical guy, you are much better off trying to meet girls at work, at school, through mutual friends, or even at the grocery store. The reason is that a typical girl in that situation is not being constantly hit on by men who are more physically attractive than you, so she will pay you more attention and there will be a better chance she will be impressed with the less superficial aspects of you as a person.
Sigh...look if you are faking who you are for the chance of hooking up with a girl they can tell. The key is to be yourself and be confident in who you are, instead of pretending to be what you think a girl likes.
My son has been having some luck with his Trikke.
It's fun, it's fascinating. The girls come running to ask what that is, and can I try it, and he gets to look awesome teaching them how to ride.
http://www.trikke.com/Home?gclid=CK2GytehgqQCFQImbAodoRETIg&partner=TRKKGNRLRUN
A veritable chick magnet.
Add a dog, go to dog park on Sunday afternoon.
WICKER PARK is a terrific movie a lot of chicks love. NOTEBOOK is another but it sucks.
Anonymous said..."Who needs Roissy when you've got Steve Sailer's dating tips?"
Apparently, many men do. Steve talked about "get together" and "getting acquainted" but the focus here seems to be on getting lucky. There's an appreciable difference between the dating game and the mating game. The former is like a marathon or an Iron Man competition and the latter like a relay race or sprint.
A couple of the comments about trying to discuss HBD with women reminded me of this.
http://manhattantransfer.blogspot.com/2005/01/king-and-i.html
--MT
"The real problem IMO is that a lot of young men have been socialized by movies and television to think that dweeby, unattractive guys with no particular career prospects are entitled to date supermodel-level ladies. Newsflash: unless you're rich, superconfident, charismatic or cool, try and date someone who's about as attractive as you are."
That is so true. I like Seinfeld, but the girls that George used to attract (don't know what other word to us) were absurdly out of his class, for the most part. In one show an adorable cheerleader type who appeared to be all of 20 was tickled pink when George asked her out. She referred to him as "that little guy." Well, he was a guy, but "little", and all the cute appeal that word entails, was not an accurate descriptor. I suspect it was the fantasy of a scriptwriter.
If you live in either a rural area or the south, college football works as a great common interest. So does hunting/target-shooting/fishing. 80 percent of the people around here like that kind of stuff, and those that don't probably just need to be introduced to it. If you live in an area with water-access and have a boat that can be a great gender-neutral conversation starter. You could also talk about places you have traveled, suggest going on a hike, etc...
"They are turned off by talk of politics, math, abstractions, controversy. And definitely don't talk controversial political abstractions which depend on math to fully understand, like HBD."
I've been waiting for years for a man who could talk about these things with me (well, not math, but "sacred geometry" perhaps), and who was also appealing physically (very subjective criteria.) Never happened where the attaction was mutual. I have delved into the depths of any number of the above mentioned subjects, arcane and mundane, and never met a man in the flesh who had poked his nose very deeply into any such where. I'm sure they're out there though. Must be, since they write 70% of the books I read.
Sometimes I wonder where the commenters on this blog spend their lives and with whom. Having worked at NASA, and the physics department of Va. Tech (not as a physist I must admit)I have met significant numbers of women, quite attractive or at least average, interested in one or more of the above mentioned subjects.
While I like checking in on this blog, as it's hard to find info in popular culture on HBD, nevertheless, many of the commenters here reinforce a life-long sense of not truly belonging to this world, or understanding (or perhaps not wanting to understand) the people in it.
btw, returning to a pre-tech society seems to be a much more male thing than female. Interesting since men invented the technology for the most part. Perhaps they created their own purgatory?
If you're looking for a serious relationship, then say what YOU want in a woman. Let them select themselves and come to you. What you want says something about you.
What sparks my interest in a man (beyond height, fitness, looks) is energy, competence, intensity, and There are short men or fat men who have that in spades. Even if you don't have that alpha confidence you can always raise your energy level. (Something I must do myself in social situations - it can be done.)
The local areas with the best architecture here are heavily populated by homosexuals. So while I love Federal and Italianate and Craftsman styles, a man who was too conversant would set off my gaydar.
Power tools and rehabbing are sexy though.
Now if I were on the market...a man who took me sailing, motorcycling, climbing, shooting, parachuting; showed me how to use power tools that intimidate me - someone who put me in a situation where I was in his power and under his protection, that might be scary but where I would learn something and overcome my fears - would impress me.
The gentler side: a date at the farmer's market works, a sensual, sophisticated, low-effort feast put together by him, with my kind of music playing (as determined by mind-reading.) Movie, video, whatever - something that made me laugh uncontrollably. An unfamiliar classic perhaps. Good mood, lowered inhibitions.
Danger, safety, physicality, sensuousness, cheerfulness, excellence.
Sailer is what 50?
He's out of touch with the realities of today's dating world.
The modern American woman is an entirely different animal from your salad years Mr. Sailer.
News flash to the "it's wussy to make an effort"/"demonstrate higher value" crowd ... Simply by showing up at the club, or putting a profile up on Match.com, or striking up a conversation, you're ALREADY MAKING AN EFFORT. After all, the noncompromising dude who truly puts out nothing for the sake of meeting girls will never, ever wind up with a girl.
So the question isn't, "Make an effort or don't make an effort?" The question is, "Since, if you're interested in girlfriends and maybe a wife, you're going to be making some kind of effort, what kinds of efforts might pay off?"
BTW, if things between young men and young women really have become as competitive and hostile as Whiskey and some others say, I don't know (if I were a young guy) whether I'd bother with chasing girls.
They can be pretty and hot still, and if you're interested in kids they (sigh) do seem to be a necessity. But a lot of what I got out of girl-chasing back in the day was companionship, sympathy, warmth, softness, giggles, ease. When I had a nice vibe going with a girl, my life felt complete, I was in touch with dimensions of experience I wasn't in touch with hanging out with guys or being by myself.
If girls don't offer that any longer ... Well, what's the attraction exactly? God knows they're an amaaaaaaazing amount of trouble.
I avoided a girl in my 5th grade class named Kelly because she had "cooties." Now that I think of it, she was pretty cute and might have saved me lots of needless teenaged anguish.
"I've lost count of the number of times I've become friendly with a pretty girl; there was obvious mutual attraction; I did something nice for her; and she immediately lost interest in me."
And I've lost count of the number of times some guy has thought a girl was interested in him, she CLEARLY wasn't to all men, women, and in between who knew them, he started fawning over her so much that it creeped her out, and he then interprets that as her sending "mixed signals".
You cold also talk about liking to dance, because dancing is fun. (But then of course once you meet her you'd better be able to back it up.)
My parents (I'm 50) were into dancing in a big way, as were most people of their generation I believe.
These days few women and a lot fewer men are into dancing. Why that is remains a mystery, but I suspect that the falling fertility rate in the West is tied to it.
You have to read a woman the way a con artist reads a mark. After all, you are trying to trick something of value out of her -- time and sex.
Because women are not interested in spending time with men and having sex? It's just plain embarrassing to see men discuss women.
It's better to stay silent and be thought a fool ...
I'd sooner take investing advice from Bernie Madoff than dating advice from Whiskey.
Long before I'd ever heard of Roissy or "negging," a beautiful woman went crazy for me when I made fun of her home town. My buddy and I were at a MLB game, and she was a few seats away rooting on a guy on the opposite team who was from her hometown. When we asked her what she was doing, she proceeded to tell us all the other players in the majors from that town. So I said, "wasn't Mengele (and Richard Speck et al.) from your town too?" A couple of innings later she was sitting on my lap, and away we went.
"A man who you help thinks of you as his friend and will work with you to attack common obstacles. A woman who you help thinks of you as a chump, and she just can't help it."
I hate to say it, but while that's not always true, there is a huge grain of truth in that. Being too helpful gets one labeled as too eager or needy or earns banishment to the Friend Zone.
Like Doug Stanhope and Joe Rogan said on The Man Show" "If you help a woman move and you don't live with her, you will never sleep with that woman. "
"I've lost count of the number of times I've become friendly with a pretty girl; there was obvious mutual attraction; I did something nice for her; and she immediately lost interest in me."
I'm really puzzled. But first: how pretty are you? Second, what nice things did you do?
Because when a guy has done nice things for me I have felt eternally grateful, depending of course, on what the nice things were. But the act of doing nice things for me would never, ever disqualify him for a relationship.
But I have an even more puzzling question.
What do you think of women who do nice things for you? And I don't mean of the sexual nature.
Because there's a long history of good wives being discarded, and the mean ones hanging on. So you know what I think? I think it works both ways. There's something suicical in all of us.
If you follow Steve's 'advice,' you'll die alone.
"The woman you want isn't going to be into serious literature--the woman who is into serious literature isn't the woman you want."
Is it likely that an intelligent woman would not have any serious intellectual interests before you came along to shine your commanding light upon her? Vapidity is fine for the short-term, but not what I'm looking for in someone who is going to be contributing genetic material to my children.
Either HBDers are
A) Really trying to achieve things (ending open borders, etc), or
B) Just having fun complaining/preening on the Internet as America’s doomed anyway. This is generally the case you make for why Roissy/Game etc is great - but some hamster-headed female writing practical solutions to Socially Security, defeating the left (coming soon: a solution to open borders) is Not Our Sort
If A, then presumably alienating a fair portion of the populace matters. If B, then it doesn’t – but it also doesn’t matter (to the cause of ending open borders etc) if people make fun of you. Either way, my comment above stands
Well, as a grad student in the DC area (yes, Roissy's backyard), the girls I meet are a standard deviation above the norm at least and looking for quality. Steve's suggestions aren't bad, and, paradoxically, neither are Roissy's. I think you want to keep women off-balance on the first date and not fit into any stereotype. You should impress not seem to earnest--exuding competence. One of the most dramatic gender differences is that only women read contemporary fiction (not counting mysteries, sci-fi, etc). I think that a passing familiarity with current books shows that you are aware of status, care about relationships and have some intelligence.
Now, this only applies to wanting women to think of you as marriage material. If you are looking for a meaningless bit of fun, then go to Roissy, not iSteve.
I'm not sure if the Steve demo will go for this, but back in my unmarried days, I did a bunch of charity things, genuinely trying to help my community. This of course meant working with NAM poor. I didn't do this in order to meet or impress girls, but it helped tremendously. What the commenters here have surprisingly missed is that women have one type of guy they like for short term and one for long term. Charity work showed that I would be a caring husband/father and my stock went way high. Church helps with this too, but don't go to church to find women.
Happily married father of 3 so far.
60+ comments and no one has pointed out that 500 Days of Summer is a manual in exactly what NOT to do. It is a beta having his soul ripped apart on the screen in slow motion. Ummm, PASS thankyouvermuch.
To older guys born before 1989 or so: you have no idea what the college scene is like. Women who have had every material resource handed to them on a platter have zero interest in man who signals faithful and provider. You might well be those things but don't wear it on your shoulder (unless you're going for the subgroup of non brainwashed Asian chicks). Architecture! It is to laugh, and then to sigh.
I think the reference to Jane Austen is indicative of the center of gravity of this blog sex-wise - i.e more than a little Victorian.
Whiskey sounds like a virgin. If a commenter is going to presume to offer advice on how to get women he should post his credentials. How many women has he had?
Albertosaurus
I'm a happily married mother of two sons. My advice to them when the time comes --they're 12 and 8, so not really relevant yet, will be "don't be a complete dickhead." If something would drive you up the wall in another person, it probably drives the other people crazy when you do it. As for the idiot upthread who denied that women ever have anything interesting to say, I'm quite sure none of us would dream of saying anything interesting to YOU, but that's not universal.
If I can give one bit of actual advice, it's learn how to dance. It's good exercise and a useful skill anyway, but girls love it. So, call Arthur Murray Studios and quit being dickheads, and you'll be just fine even if you don't get a girlfriend.
Karen
Sprezzatura.
The last Anon touches on something that gets too little attention. The years '83-'90 were called 'the 7 Fat Years' by the WSJ, and of course the next decade just ramped it up. So women who came of age after '83 or so became accustomed to a level of material living that most Boomer gals never experienced until a much later age, if at all. And that's even before considering the workplace AA. Romance-wise, under-40 males really did get shafted. Not sure what Sodini's problem was, though.
Steve, Early on my first date I asked my wife of thirty years what she was interested in. Foreign policy. Who do like in the field, I asked, She said Henry Kissinger. That was an acceptable answer to me at the time (having been dating mostly grad school Trotskyites, though I was much more conservative). We talked about it a bit that night, but mostly the play we saw. We got married within six months.
"He's out of touch with the realities of today's dating world.
The modern American woman is an entirely different animal from your salad years Mr. Sailer."
Even if your game sucks, if you are not completely unattractive, you will stumble into a relationship at some point in your 20s which can result in marriage if you want.
Your typical beta chump is very likely to outbreed the likes of a Roissy or a Mystery.
Except in certain underclass communities of course.
"And I've lost count of the number of times some guy has thought a girl was interested in him"
I can't really speak to those situations, but I can tell you in my case these typically were girls who were willing to spend time with me alone, e.g. to meet me for lunch or for a walk. Or at least spend time chatting with me alone.
But after I did something nice for them, suddenly they were too busy for any of that.
"Because when a guy has done nice things for me I have felt eternally grateful, depending of course, on what the nice things were. But the act of doing nice things for me would never, ever disqualify him for a relationship."
That may be so, but it's possible you are unusual. It's also possible that like most women, you do not have a very good conscious understanding of what attracts you to a guy.
It's kind of like how 99% of people believe that advertising doesn't work on them. And yet advertisers still spend millions.
"What do you think of women who do nice things for you? "
I would say it's a positive thing but that it doesn't make a huge difference. If there is a girl I want to have sex with and she does something nice for me, I still want to have sex with her. If it's someone I don't want to have sex with, then I still won't want to have sex with her.
If a girl I don't know very well offers to do something nice for me, I will take it as an indication of interest and I will be more likely to pursue her if I am interested.
"There's something suicical in all of us."
I would say the problem is much more acute with women. Because of thousands of years of evolution, women are naturally attracted to dominant, high-status men. So that if a man does something to mark himself as a beta supplicator, it's a huge instant turn-off.
By contrast, thousands of years of evolution have caused men to be attracted to girls who are hot. i.e. fertile and healthy looking. If a girl falls into this category, men will want to have sex with her whether or not she does nice things.
"If you live in either a rural area or the south, college football works as a great common interest."
I grew up in Bama myself and can vouch from experience this is a really good suggestion.
The architecture thing has totally worked for me on occasion--particularly when I met my wife. Then again, she *is* an architectural historian...
George Costanza: He's into architecture.
Jerry: Hey, just like you pretend to be!
OR
George: Marine biologist?! Why couldn't you make me an architect? You know I always wanted to pretend to be an architect.
go to 1:05 min.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DUPfQCvHXw
Albertosaurus, you're pulling our legs. Linking Austen to the Victorian era; inviting people to post their credential when it would obviously just come off as unverifiable bragging.
... What sparks my interest in a man ... is energy, competence, intensity, ... Even if you don't have that alpha confidence you can always raise your energy level. (Something I must do myself in social situations - it can be done.)
In other words, a nonstop talker with a loud, braying laugh.
...
... showed me how to use power tools that intimidate me - someone who put me in a situation where I was in his power and under his protection, that might be scary but where I would learn something and overcome my fears - would impress me.
Tie her up, put a gag in her mouth, and spank her. Power tools ... good vibrations.
... a sensual, sophisticated, low-effort feast put together by him
Not a skinny girl?
... with my kind of music playing (as determined by mind-reading.) Movie, video, whatever - something that made me laugh uncontrollably. Braying like a jackass! An unfamiliar classic perhaps. Good mood, lowered inhibitions.
Lowered inhibitions? How enchanting.
"BTW, if things between young men and young women really have become as competitive and hostile as Whiskey and some others say, I don't know (if I were a young guy) whether I'd bother with chasing girls. "
Ray Sawhill, as a current college junior I can assure you its not as competitive as certain commentators allege. Every passably attractive, non-overweight and non-crazy/socially awkward person I know is dating someone or has the capability to get dates (people have expressed interest in them before). The only problem is that a large swath of those capable of getting dates-males in particular although females aren't immune either- don't want to date people on the same level as themselves due to an inflated sense of self worth.
"To older guys born before 1989 or so: you have no idea what the college scene is like. Women who have had every material resource handed to them on a platter have zero interest in man who signals faithful and provider."
Sureee, mr. bitter. Hint: you probably have other qualities such as your negativity and cynicism that are turning women off. If women are "turned off" by future providers why is it that most of my female friends brag when they dating guys who are in medical school, law school, or engineering? And no, I don't exactly hang around the nerdy crowd either if that is your explanation for this.
R.J.,
I have the quote 'Enough about me. What do YOU think of me?' down to Bette Midler.
Re architecture: An interest in architecture is a mark of maturity and Bourgeois substance. Young people, leftists and high intellectuals tend to be comtemptuous of that most middlebrow of arts.
While I normally enjoy the contrarian point of views on this site, the discussion here is idiotic, hbd nerds clearly don't get out much...
Step 1:
Figure out your identity, what you enjoy, and what you are looking for in a woman.
Have no insecurities about who you are and what you like.
Don't give a f*** what anyone thinks. But be a nice guy when you feel like it (not because you expect something in return).
Get to the point where you are perfectly confortable going to the busiest street in the city and taking a dump in broad daylight. But you choose not to do so because it is an obnoxious thing to do.
Step 2:
Approach her. If it isn't obvious that you fancy her based on the situation. Make it obvious that you might be interested in a sexual relationship with her.
Talk about her, to get to know her evaluate her against the aforementioned critera.
When talking about yourself... Be honest the same way lawyers are honest. Its not ok to lie, it is ok to present the truth in a way that is more interesting.
Show her your lifestyle and take her to places you like to go.(unless she initiates / pays).
This is about getting the woman you want, not becoming the guy women want.
Step 3:
Make a move.
Then another.
Kiss her.
Do her.
If it isn't obvious to her what type of relationship you are after (exclusive, long term, freind with benefits etc) make it known before sleeping with her more than once)
Step 4
Rinse and Repeat!
Say your favorite movie is Lost in Translation.
It has to be said...
Steve, you aren't out of touch. You are married, right?
The best thing one can do to better himself, be more successful, etc. is to find someone who is or has what you want and copy them.
There is nothing new under the sun. An unmarried man would be better off listening to the advice of a happily married 92-year-old man than the most intelligent sounding theory of a bitter bachelor-peer.
Also, nobody has ever pointed out that intelligent men will have a hard time finding their Juliet because one of the iron laws of attraction is that we end up with those who have roughly the same I.Q. (the other is roughly the same sexual experience). Since the higher you go up in intelligence, the more men will outnumber women. Isn't it like 8 men for 1 woman at 145?
Intelligent women, on the other hand, have it very easy :)
Albertosaurus -- I've had about the same as most average guys. My advice would be to do NOT what I did most of the time, which was blow it, by being a supplicating beta. If I had not done that, I'd had a lot more. And I'm nothing special either.
I'm just second-hand Roissy's (or Dave in Hawaii's) advice, both of which work for a LTR as well as combat dating. There's a post on Roissy's site about a guy who went through just how to construct a profile on one of those "cheating" date sites and how he went about constructing a winning one.
But Steve seems to think that "making an effort" is all it takes to even make the cut of "I'll talk to you some more" after an approach: daytime, classes, etc. Much less clubs or online dating.
Given the level of competition, even a moderately attractive woman has for her attention, that's not a winning strategy. A guy HAS to stand out. The guys I know who have done exceptionally well have all stood out, and yes height is a HUGE advantage in literally standing out. [Which makes quite tall Steve not as good as short Eric Strauss.]
Steve's advice is state of the art, 1978. Not so much 2010.
The question was to list other possible topics to be interested in to politely show interest to a woman. Here are some suggestions: pron collection, video games, personal sports hero, scifi, your mother, hbd, your feelings.
Talk about work.
> who denied that women ever have anything interesting to say
Hey mom, you're free to tell your tykes to try discussing map/reduce, the EPR paradox and paleoconservatism with their dates. After a while they'll realize that even (especially) smart girls just want raw DHV. Never give her a straight answer to a question and treat her like a little girl and you'll have them eating out of the palm of your hand. Make the mistake of discussing issues with them as a "mature life partner" and you'll get the crossed arms and the frown of disapproval. They don't even understand why they feel this way (introspection is not generally a strong suit), but it's because a man who asks their opinion in earnest is just not a leader.
Ah, for the days of asking for a light for one's cigarette, in a bar or a restaurant. Congregating among the office serfettes in their stretch fabrics outside a building is just not as fun.
I went out for a while with a guy who was not a great reader, but he did not apologize for it. He was a lawyer and a divorced dad with two kids, and hey, not everyone has time to read "A Sentimental Education" twice. He asked questions about what I liked to read, and we talked about those books and other tangential topics for hours.
Later, I met a nice guy who read some Orwell and Graham Greene but he was so socially awkward and shy it didn't matter.
So sometimes, plus un homme cultive les arts, moins il bande.
My other tip is to talk to the perplexed looking girls at Home Depot.
"Is it likely that an intelligent woman would not have any serious intellectual interests before you came along to shine your commanding light upon her? Vapidity is fine for the short-term, but not what I'm looking for in someone who is going to be contributing genetic material to my children."
Yes, an intelligent woman (using her own forgiving definition) will certainly have interests, many of them extremely stupid. In fact, stupid in inverse proportion to her supposed intelligence. You shouldn't worry about that--if she's into you she'll drop that baggage in short order.
Some insecure women will want to have their poorly thought out ideas validated. These are the ones to avoid, as you can't really win that game.
But you're getting ahead of yourself in thinking about "contributing genetic material" (hopefully you don't talk like that to people). Picking a spouse isn't some MMORPG where you are trying to max out the stats on your Elf Mage. For heaven's sake. You want a woman who is going to be nurturing, empathic, sensible, and devoted. Sorry, but women with intellectual pretensions seldom have these qualities--usually they have masculinized brains that tell them their views on Virginia Woolf or social policy actually matter, and they make terrible wives.
Does your hypothetical offspring benefit from having two parents who style themselves intellectuals? Is there perhaps a point of diminishing returns when it comes to IQ? Maybe it's not the end of the world if your kid has an INT of 16 rather than the 18 that would give him access to those high level spells--assuming he gets a real mother who raises him rather than outsourcing the job to a nanny.
Believe it or not, but don't say I didn't warn you.
a Chinese invasion of italy, surely this will bring many comments for you!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/13/world/europe/13prato.html
Whiskey, we get it.
We get it.
Some girl rejected you once.
Now all girls hate, hate, HATE "betas" (whatever the hell that is - it can't be most of guys, because then betas would be doing most of the reproducing! but whatever, logic isn't your strength), because one girl once wasn't nice to you.
Get over it. Biology does not become something different because of your personal experiences.
As for Roissy, look, man, a lot of us went to college. Everyone was slutty! We didn't then think we were awesome "alpha" studs because slutty girls were ok with our touching them. That'd be RETARDED.
> you probably have other qualities such as your negativity and cynicism that are turning women off.
Le sigh.
BamaGirl, with game and regular gym time it is not hard to attract women in the 7-8 range (though 9's and 10's require more effort). You just need to realize that ATTRACTIVE women are a lot more likely to view omg.yahoo.com than news.ycombinator.com, and calibrate accordingly.
Attractive women have to have one of their primary interests as being attractive. That usually requires a lot more maintenance than the equivalent for a guy.
Once in a while there is the sporty type who needs no makeup, or the occasional Leah Culver, Pardis Sabeti, or young Lisa Randall. But they are highly exceptional and unusual.
For playing the odds, Steve's advice to talk about architecture and Jane Austen could not be more off base.
Everyone needs to read this thread for a reality check.
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/
BamaGirl said...
The only problem is that a large swath of those capable of getting dates-males in particular although females aren't immune either- don't want to date people on the same level as themselves due to an inflated sense of self worth.
That sounds like a perfectly good explanation of the current dating scene. I'd say BamaGirl has nailed that one, and that explains Whiskey's problem as well. Guys like Roissy are spending their lives figuring out strategies to date babes above their level. That's what his site is all about. This is an old strategy, you can read about it in European history, I'm sure other cultures know this as well. Just like women, many men also desire social climbing, it's just that their strategies differ.
I think the average man wants a woman of roughly equal intelligence to himself, not for "genetic material" reasons, but simply for for compatibility and companionship.
It is true that the average man would generally prefer a wife a few IQ points lower than himself to one a few points higher, because he wants to be the clear leader in the marruage, but I think a happy marriage can rarely occur with a wide IQ difference in either direction.
I don't think intelligence is necessarily incompatible with nurturing or good motherhood, and I find it strange that Udolpho seems to conflate above-average intelligence with "intellectual pretensions" or "styling yourself an intellectual," which are by no means necessarily the same thing.
"Guys like Roissy are spending their lives figuring out strategies to date babes above their level."
Well, if you can consistently date babes above your level, then ipso facto your level is higher than you thought.
While I do agree it's a problem that people are too picky, the problem is more acute with girls than with men.
The reason for this is that our society is very tolerant of short term sexual relationships. A girl can always date up if she is comfortable having a short term relationship with little possibility of marriage.
So when looking for a serious boyfriend/husband, it's very tempting and easy to date the highest status and most physically attractive man who is willing to regularly have sex with you and hope that it will turn into a long term relationship.
Roissy calls this the "alpha cock carousel" and it's a huge problem for girls, especially since their looks fade so quickly.
thousands of years of evolution have caused men to be attracted to girls who are hot. i.e. fertile and healthy looking.
No, fertile and healthy looking is not the same thing as "hot". Most "hot" women are far too skinny to be be fertile and healthy looking.
The only problem is that a large swath of those capable of getting dates-males in particular although females aren't immune either- don't want to date people on the same level as themselves due to an inflated sense of self worth.
Oh, come on. College age guys will bang anything that moves. Being too picky is NOT one of their problems.
On a separate issue, this talk of "levels" sounds so ... Victorian. I'm picturing characters in Pride and Prejudice worrying about marrying beneath their station.
Given the level of competition, even a moderately attractive woman has for her attention ...
It's true that a fairly average looking young woman living in one of America's large cities get's an absurd amount of attention from guys who want to sleep with her.
But that's because America's large cities have a excessive number of men who come on to such women on a daily basis.
And the solution of the PUA blogs is for more men to be more aggressive in their interests.
It does not take a genius level IQ to see that the result of this will be to make the women build even higher walls around themselves.
Believe it or not, in places outside of America's large cities and their PUA infestation, women actually come on to men. Average men.
Headache: half right. A man's rating on the 10 point scale is more fluid than a woman's. With diet and exercise, a woman might jump 2 or in a pinch 3 points. With game, grooming, and career the very self same guy can move 4 points or more as he goes from 18 year old supplicating beta nerd to 28 year old callous muscular entrepreneur with game.
"Yes, an intelligent woman (using her own forgiving definition) will certainly have interests, many of them extremely stupid."
My mammma said, stupid is as stupid does. We're not on your level, this is true, ufo.
Someday they're going to require proof you are what you think you are. Is that why you are so insecure?
If I want funny stupid, I read whiskey; if I want psycho-stupid, you'll do.
Say you love puppies and kittens.
"Maybe it's not the end of the world if your kid has an INT of 16 rather than the 18 that would give him access to those high level spells--assuming he gets a real mother who raises him rather than outsourcing the job to a nanny."
Udolpho is correct, but he's outed himself. For all his bitching about nerds, he knows just a little too much about some things... ;)
Say you like to sail or mention anything sea-ish. It has the aura of the romantic pirate.
If you don't sail or own a boat, say you love to swim.
Girls go for water. Water also evokes tropical islands, hawaii, etc. It's also sexual, as in shower where people have to be nude. And sex itself is watery, with penis is wet vagina.
Cooking is the killer. Girls like men who can cook, at least in a manly way.
There are two kinds of manly cooking girls go for:
BBQ big tough man cooking. Biker chicks dig that.
But yuppie chicks go for guys who can cook something special. But the guy must like an artiste than a kitchen nerd. It rings of CULTURE.
And do discuss 'wine and conversation.'
Style matters more than substance. Girls may like to discuss books but set and setting are just as important. It's the HOW that matters.
It's like the enjoyment of art depends on where and how it's shown.
"Most 'hot' women are far too skinny to be be fertile and healthy looking."
That's feminist nonsense. If you ignore the girls who are proclaimed to be hot by women and gay men (e.g. fashion models) and look at girls who are actually considered to be hot by men, they are not super-skinny by any means.
"It does not take a genius level IQ to see that the result of this will be to make the women build even higher walls around themselves. "
Unlikely, given that the vast majority of men don't have the cojones to do 50 cold approaches a week.
And among those that do, most don't have the kind of psychological problems which require them to bang 50 girls a year.
That's feminist nonsense. If you ignore the girls who are proclaimed to be hot by women and gay men (e.g. fashion models) and look at girls who are actually considered to be hot by men, they are not super-skinny by any means.
Like Megan Fox and Jessica Alba?
"Like Megan Fox and Jessica Alba?"
Correct.
I did a google search for candid photos of each one and found these:
http://tinyurl.com/26ckc7j
http://tinyurl.com/2dmzdvb
I would say that Jessica Alba is petite, but neither one is super skinny.
I would say that Jessica Alba is petite, but neither one is super skinny.
Compared to what? I have to wonder at your standard of measurement. Compared to the average young American female, they are super skinny.
"Compared to the average young American female, they are super skinny."
Lol, that's not saying much.
Look, the claim on the table is that most women who are considered "hot" are thin to the point of looking unhealthy.
It seems pretty clear to me that neither of these girls looks unhealthy. Both of them are fit and sexually attractive. Disagree?
Whiskey said -
A guy HAS to stand out. The guys I know who have done exceptionally well have all stood out, and yes height is a HUGE advantage in literally standing out. [Which makes quite tall Steve not as good as short Eric Strauss.]
I was 6'5" last week at the doctor's office. I think that's taller than Steve. I don't know who Eric Strauss might be.
A lot of "getting women" is simply working at it and not being discouraged by rejection.
Sooner or later you will meet a woman who will stand up in the middle of a bar and announce in a loud voice that you are a jerk and not good enough for her. If that sort of thing bothers you, you will be lonely. It's better to just make another pitch to another woman.
I'd advise less theorizing and more presentations.
Albertosaurus
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