"First, you play Beauty. Then you play ... Beast! Then you get too fat they kick you out of show, you have to scrape ice to make snowcone to sell in stands. Nobody want you, nobody love you, then you die."
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109 comments:
Mr. Sailer !
1. You are at your best, as always !
2. John Derbyshire wrote an important article on the subject:
http://johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/HumanSciences/tigermom.html
In it he spends no time on his (China-born) wife and their two kids (in comparison with previous “Corner” comments), but more on gerneral subject of bringing kids onUS.
Respectfully, Florida resident.
"Back in 1751, the highest achiever of all Americans, Benjamin Franklin, explained the greater happiness of life in America: because a middle-class life is more affordable for the average person in empty America than elsewhere.
Unfortunately, our elites have been working to erase that distinction."
Are you trying to depress me, Steve?
Random question:
Why are Asian guys angered rather than flattered that their women are in such high demand?
"Why are Asian guys angered rather than flattered that their women are in such high demand?"
Same exact reason a guy is angered rather than flattered when some better-looking guy hits on his girlfriend in a bar.
I wouldn't call thay a random question so much as a stupid question.
Oriental moms are more ruthless with their kids because......
1.) People have historically lived on the brink of starvation in the Orient, much more than other regions. Not to mention that even today, life is pretty severe in much of mainland China. Even in the more affluent parts, if a child doesn't make it to the university, he's basically shut out of the middle class. In the east, failure = death. Hence the harshness.
2.) Orientals are more pliable/malleable and not prone to fighting back. Berating them tends to get a positive response, while berating other races (whites, blacks, Latins) leads toward rebellion.
3.) Orientals are also more conformist, so "success" and "failure" are easily measurable. In the West, a successful painter might be considered as successful as a physician or lawyer. In the East, the hierarchy is more clear and if you don't rank high, you get ostracized.
Oh. My. God. Again with Asian women "stealing" white men away from white women. (BTW, I know all you white men like to think your Asian wives married you for your looks but Amy Chua's husband is not handsome. He's on the nerdy side of slightly above average - like most white men Asian women marry - nerds.) [White] Women are pissed because once again Asians are patting themselves on the back about how superior they are to whites, now it's in the field of motherhood. It's never wise to insult a woman's maternal skills, no matter what her race. Like Asians are the only ones who push their kids into lucrative fields like medicine or engineering. What the f**k did we do in America before we let all the Asians in?
Full disclosure time, Steve - aren't you married to an Asian woman?
And where exactly has all this Tiger Mommery gotten the Chinese, compared to the weak-willed European moms?
I can't remember who said it or where, but you quoted / commented on it sometime last year I think. Some English conservative politician talking about how far back their tradition goes of having smaller, nuclear-focused families, being relatively more indulgent of kids than elsewhere in the world, being more in favor of Romeo and Juliet than the marriage market, individual rights, etc.
At least to the Early Modern or Late Middle Ages, depending on which feature you look at. The nuclear family, waiting longer to get married if they're not able to support kids, etc., goes back at least 500 years.
Substitute 1% of the English with Chinese, and the society probably works out fine, maybe even a little better because of the mean IQ boost and greater share who's above some high threshold.
But substitute 10% of them with the Chinese -- and who knows what happens then to fundamental social cohesion.
And since there have been no experiments here, we don't know whether the breaking point is 4%, 6%, 17%, or whatever. So extreme caution is the right course.
Keep the English as English as possible, not just with respect to immigration but also English adoption of Chinese customs. If culture is adaptive to the local ecology, we should ignore Chua's advice just as we would ignore a Nigerian who advised us Westerners to walk around shirtless all day in southern Florida during the summer.
Amy Chua has nothing on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYqDS9i8zJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnda41lj6go
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Vu
The wit and wisdom of Tom Vu.
"Are you afraid to ask your Boss for the day off to come to my seminar? Well then you don't deserve to be rich"
"Today I'm gonna show you how to drive a sports car. First, you need a lot of money!"
"Don't listen to your friends. They're losers!"
"Do you think these girls like me? NO, they like my money!"
"The next generation [i.e., her daughters’ children] is the one I spend nights lying awake worrying about. … Finally and most problematically, they will feel that they have individual rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution and therefore be much more likely to disobey their parents and ignore career advice. In short, all factors point to this generation being headed straight for decline.
"Well, not on my watch."
------------
Wasn't this one of the themes of Mann's Buddenbrooks? Decline of a great family through decadence(in the Spenglerian sense)?
"Full disclosure time, Steve - aren't you married to an Asian woman?"
Steve's wife is Asian?????
How come he never mentioned this????
There is a contradiciton in the Asian soul. Ambition + humility or ambition versus humility.
Bragging and showing off are looked down by Confucianism, yet excellence is stressed. So, kids are pushed to succeed to make parents proud, but the parents, ideally anyway, are not supposed to make a big deal out of it in public or say stuff like 'my kid is better than your kid'. They are supposed to say, 'this my worthless son', or that's the impression I got from GOOD EARTH the movie.
Chua is an interesting case because she has the Confucian drive toward success yet the American brashness in pride. The Chinese hunger for excellence minus oriental grace. It's cowboy confucianism.
Perhaps, this Asian hunger for success(for kids especially)is due to the suppression of individual pride in Asian societies. In America, you can be happy and even proud as a free individual even if you're not successful or wealthy.
But in Asia, where such individuality doesn't exist nor can be asserted, one's worth is determined by what how society sees you. And naturally those who went to good schools and have respectable jobs win the most respect.
In the West, we associate success with individual drive, vision, and resourcefulness. In Asia, success is defined in terms of submitting to the system. Westerners tend to see the great winners as those who beat the system, rose above the system, or created a new system altogether. Bill Gates or Steven Jobs.
In Asia, the successful are seen as those who worked most diligently to climb up the existing system.
Thus, we see many fine Asian musicians succeeding at classical music which is a self-enclosed system while we see almost no Asian in boldly creative new forms of music--at least in the US.
Chua's 'immigrant' worries about the West not only say something about cultural differences but about how times have changed. If Chua were living in the America of the 1950s, she might be less worried about kids 'disobeying' their parents, acting up, and becoming lost to stupid youth culture.
Youth culture as a phenomenon and market niche only began in the 50s. Back then, most American families stayed together, kids behaved better in schools, and kids were more likely to respect their parents(and listen to the same music). Back then, people like Chua might have admired Americans(whites esp)as tough, successful, ambitious, hard, and disciplined; and might have wanted her children to be like Americans--so much better than all those poor, backward, and ignorant Asians back home.
But the rise of China has filled her with pride about China(like Japanese felt really big about themselves and their future in the 80s). Also, all the PC, self-esteem crap, and decrepit American youth culture are bound to win little respect from new Americans with 'immigrant' expectations and mentality. People like Chua still see US as a land of opportunity but culturally adn morally on the decline. True or not, only time will tell.
"IN THE spring of 2000, a professor whom I’ll call Jerry White was furiously trying to finish an article on the debacle of Russian privatization. … It seemed to me that most of the key players in the privatization of Russia were Jewish.
“‘Oh, no,’ Jerry replied instantly. ‘I don’t think so.’
“‘Are you sure?’ I pressed him. ‘If you look at their names . . . ‘
“‘You can’t tell anything from names,’ Jerry snapped, clearly not wanting to discuss the topic any further.
“As it turns out, six out of seven of Russia’s wealthiest and, at least until recently, most powerful oligarchs are Jewish."
------------
It could be Chua was more willing to discuss this issue because she was ignorant of the Jew Taboo(and how it could get one in trouble) and/or because she didn't share white-gentile-guilt about Jews.
But if 'Jerry White' was Jewish, maybe he was less willing to discuss such matters since Jews are, in some ways, more vulnerable than overseas Chinese. If worst comes to worst for overseas Chinese, they can still go back to huge powerful country called China where they can feel safe. But if worst comes to worst for Jews, they have no place to go but Israel, which is very small and vulnerable geographically.
Conversation with Amy Chua:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QenLlFx4cCQ
And one with Yuri Slezkine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_nhahTUFWo
THE CHEWISH CENTURY?
Random thoughts:
1. Isn't it funny how Chinese moms insist so much on playing music written by white guys, on instruments invented by white guys? Don't they have their own music and instruments that they can show off to the admissions committee?
2. Connected to 1. perhaps: Amy Chua isn't Chinese. Not really. She's a US citizen, born and raised in America, married to a Jewish guy. How would peasants in Hunan Province relate to her "Chinese mothering"? Or are people like Chua more an American than an Asian phenomenon?
3. Has Chua at any point expressed a non-PC opinion on blacks and/or Hispanics? That would be interesting to know. I sort of feel like I can guess her thoughts on that subject...
4. "Tiger mothering" merely supports my belief that Asians tend to peak early, and then burn themselves out (think of all those great Taiwanese Little League teams - what happened to those guys?).
I wonder how Chua might compare with Iris Chang. Paula Kamen's book on Chang was stupid but compelling nevertheless. Chang's motto was THINK BIG. Though her RAPE OF NANKING was more publishing gimmick than good history, Chang certainly knew how to make her star rise. Chang too was an over-achiever, but her death had something to do with mental illness tha with culture.
Another thing. What is the difference the Chinese mother and the Japanese mother? From movies(such as FAMILY GAME) and books(such as Buruma's BEHIND THE MASK), I get the impression that Chinese mothers are more pushy & nagging while Japanese mothers are more quietly supportive--with the real pressure coming from the SYSTEM as a whole.
Also, Chinese seems more like a nagging language while Japanese sounds more like stoic language.
Gong vs the flute.
anon:
"Same exact reason a guy is angered rather than flattered when some better-looking guy hits on his girlfriend in a bar."
Long ago when I was young and in the British Army Reserve, my fellow part-time soldiers were sceptical of my wife's existence, so one evening I brought her to the on-base bar. She deliberately dolled up as an 'army wife' in blue denim and makeup, and did get hit on.
I remember being both
(a) nervous - 'she's showing a lot of interest in that guy!' and
(b) smug - 'Look at my hot wife! Ha!'
Don't American upper-middle-class parents push their children, "helicopter parenting", scheduled activities and such, with the aim of getting to a good University? Certainly my impression is that they're far pushier than the British upper-middle-class.
Simon, what are Asians (Pakistani/Indian) like in your country? I heard they push their kids hard in school and the kids do really well academically. Lots of doctors, lawyers, pharmacists.
"1. Isn't it funny how Chinese moms insist so much on playing music written by white guys, on instruments invented by white guys? Don't they have their own music and instruments that they can show off to the admissions committee?"
ROTFL. That is pretty funny. But if you've heard Chinese music, you'd know why.
Maybe lots of Jews played classical music because their own music sucked too. And Jews eat Chinese food because their food is awful--except for corned beef sandwich.
Come to think of it, Germans 'stole' Italian music before they developed their own too. Culture is always a matter of who practices what than just who invented what. Greeks may have invented lots of stuff but others later learned to use them a lot better while Greeks forgot how to use them altogether.
What puzzles me is why so many whites don't cherish and practice their own glorious musical past while imitating everything black. There are far more white kids in America, UK, and France who are into rap, soul, afro-pop, blues, and reggae(and even rock and jazz are pretty black in origin) than into classical music, which in the US,has become largely Jewish and Asian. Even Down syndrome kids are into it. Check out my boy, Laz-D.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjangHVkuPk&playnext=1&list=PL247A4ACF993A8A73
There's a lot of great black music, most of my well-educated liberal friends on facebook seem to be much more into black music than classical music. Even a lot of 'white trash' kids today are more into rap than country. Rap makes them feel tough and sexually dominant. I guess it also have more FLAVA.
I was talking to some Finnish kid on facebook. He said Finnish people prefer anything to Finnish food. It must be really awful. He says on a per capita basis, Finns eat more frozen pizzas than any other people. I guess that's how it goes. We eat Chinese while Chinese play our music.
One cross-cultural appeal of Western classical music and western pop music(which incorporated black influences) could their their theme of universality and/or individuality.
When you listen to Indian music, you think of Indian culture. Japanese music makes you think of Japanese culture. Arab music of Arab culture. But when you listen to Bach or Beethoven, the music transcends locality, ethnicity, or nationality. It feels like a statement on MAN in the abstract than in the cultural specific. Of course, all music is culturally specific, but the reach and scope of classical music was more ambitious, far-reaching. It was the creative equivalent of the Columbus-ian discovery of the New World. It was trying to go beyond cultural boundaries. And giants like Beethoven and Brahms weren't merely interested in mastering an established craft but in forging new visions through their individuality. Beethoven wasn't just a German musician but a musician who transcended and even rebelled against the strictures of Germanness. So, this may explain the universal appeal of classical music.
As for pop music, its emphasis on fun, easy and accessible pleasure, freedom and liberation was bound to appeal to people all over the world.
This isn't to say classical or western pop music is necessarily better than local cultural music but merely to point out that certain things simply have wider appeal for whatever reasons.
it's funny that you don't call Ms. Chua out for who she is---a troll.
A very successful one at that.
It could be Chua was more willing to discuss this issue because she was ignorant of the Jew Taboo(and how it could get one in trouble) and/or because she didn't share white-gentile-guilt about Jews.
But if 'Jerry White' was Jewish, maybe he was less willing to discuss such matters since Jews are, in some ways, more vulnerable than overseas Chinese. If worst comes to worst for overseas Chinese, they can still go back to huge powerful country called China where they can feel safe. But if worst comes to worst for Jews, they have no place to go but Israel, which is very small and vulnerable geographically.
Okay, so, Jews, the wealthiest and most politically powerful people in the world, who are welcome at least everywhere white people are welcome (on pain of social death), plus their ethnostate in Israel, and can basically only be distinguished from whites by declaring their Jewishness, are "vulnerable." Okay, got it. Jewish supremacism is a hoot.
"First, you play Beauty. Then you play ... Beast! Then you get too fat they kick you out of show, you have to scrape ice to make snowcone to sell in stands. Nobody want you, nobody love you, then you die."
Now that's class.
"China is here Mr. Burton."
mr. steve sailer, i think there is an implicit consensus (almost) among your hbd readers that we as a society can handle race-realism.... but...
are you sure that is so??
among lower iq whites, this can lead to the acceptance of violence and hatred of others whom they
these thuggish low iq whites (which constitute the majjority of this country) have to be controlled with "noble lies"
maybe we need myths and lies. maybe.
you take it as a given that the truth is always best, it probably is. ... but maybe not
While there are some kernels of truth in the Tiger Mom controversy, a significant amount is simply not representative of the truth about Chinese and White Americans.
Chua represents an older style of Chinese upbringing, probably due to leaving China before the One Child Policy came about in the late 70s. The Chinese have a different take on upbringing since then, to the point where an entire generation has come to be known as "Little Emperors" because they have been spoiled so much and given everything they want.
Likewise the view of American white parents as being mortified over the idea of little Johnny ever facing the slightest challenge is probably only the dominant parenting style among the ultra-liberal SWPL elites than among mainsteam Americans. Then again, only the views and behaviors of the elites are considered acceptable conduct by the Mainstream Media, anything else is invisible....
From the article:
"It would be interesting to try to quantify how much of the rage against Chua in the women’s’ press is motivated by inchoate feelings that Chinese women, with their naturally straight hair, are Stealing Our Men."
Straight vs Curly hair?
Steve's dog-whistling!
@SimoninLondon:
"..American upper-middle-class parents [are] far pushier than the British upper-middle-class": didn't you explain that in a recent post of yours when you argued that admission to the best British Universities is more meritocratic than in the US?
There's got to be a Saturday Night Live-type skit to be made of Asian Tiger Mother vs. Texas Cheeleader Mom.
This calls to mind my time as a UCLA post-doc living in university family housing between Pico Blvd. and Venice Blvd., next to the 405 freeway (since demolished and replaced with newer housing). Of the couple dozen families living in apartments ringing our courtyard, ours was one of three American families. When our third child was born, third boy in a row, many Chinese women asked my wife what the secret was. (When our fith child was born, fifth boy in a row, we started to wonder too.)
I wonder if that peasant-like longing for many sons is a part of the Chinese soul that Amy Chua is fighting against within herself through her tiger mothering of her two daughters. As Derbyshire wrote, her methods impose their own One Child Policy.
"Anonymous said...
"Why are Asian guys angered rather than flattered that their women are in such high demand?"
Same exact reason a guy is angered rather than flattered when some better-looking guy hits on his girlfriend in a bar."
The intruder does not even have to be better-looking, he can be a complete dog, and it would still tick off the boyfriend. Just the fact that he is intruding is provocation enough.
That being said, the white men who go out with Asian women tends to be the nerd / geek types rejected by white women, so they are not exactly "better-looking" than Asian men. In fact, I dare say they might even be uglier and creepier.
There's been a lot written on the effects on the brain that classical music has--I know, define classical. Well, Baroque up to Beethoven, Brahms, and Schumann I think. In Superlearning 2000,the authors discuss the "high frequency" vibrations of classical music compared with pop and rock. They didn't compare "rap" and I don't even want to think about how low that goes. Pop and rock are low frequency and low frequency keeps the mind at a low state, concentrating on the physical and mundane (why it's accused of causing "licentiousness" I guess) while the high frequency vibrations are tranascendent, improve concentration, and are, to an extent, spiritualizing.
I know that people into "culture" have always said something to this effect, to the score of youth througout the 20th century. But the "Mozart" effect does have scientific veracity though not just Mozart. And there are probably other types of music that work, though the authors of Superlearning did not find jazz to be effective and they did not apologize for the Eurocentricness. What works, works.
"Anonymous said...
1.) People have historically lived on the brink of starvation in the Orient, much more than other regions. Not to mention that even today, life is pretty severe in much of mainland China. Even in the more affluent parts, if a child doesn't make it to the university, he's basically shut out of the middle class. In the east, failure = death. Hence the harshness."
Not necessarily death, but poverty, perhaps. And the "Orient" is not all that remarkable in its poverty. Pretty much every pre-industrial society had / had grinding poverty that makes the Great Depression look / seem benign.
As for famine and starvation, again, that is not particular to the Orient. Just ask the peasants who rose up in revolt all over Europe in the 1850s and during the Bolshevik Revolution.
"2.) Orientals are more pliable/malleable and not prone to fighting back. Berating them tends to get a positive response, while berating other races (whites, blacks, Latins) leads toward rebellion."
No, berating does not get you a "positive" response. It is the application of violence that comes with the berating that gets you a "positive" response. (Note: I put the word "positive" in quotes because personally I do not see how any violence-induced actions can be positive)
Methinks Amy Chua left out the part where she hit her kids with a cane, which is prevalent in Chinese child-rearing.
"3.) Orientals are also more conformist, so "success" and "failure" are easily measurable. In the West, a successful painter might be considered as successful as a physician or lawyer. In the East, the hierarchy is more clear and if you don't rank high, you get ostracized."
Everybody conforms to the values of the dominant society. In other words, we are all "Conformists". I can just imagine the frothing-at-the-mouth of all the immigrant-haters when immigrants do not conform to "American values." Hell, I can imagine them going rabid even if those immigrants do conform to the majority society.
Do notice how, totally absent from Chua's upbringing, is any sense of noblesse oblige? In fact there is an undertone of hostility towards native born americans.
No sense of custodianship, no sense of stewardship.
While WASPs donate their land to the Nature conservancy, market dominate minorities scheme on ways to sieze.
When the takeover of america by a hostile elite is complete, this isn't going to be pretty place to live, physically, morally, spiritually.
"John Mansfield said...
I wonder if that peasant-like longing for many sons is a part of the Chinese soul that Amy Chua is fighting against within herself through her tiger mothering of her two daughters. As Derbyshire wrote, her methods impose their own One Child Policy."
How is wanting boys peasant-like? That is funny coming from someone who has a peasant-like number of children. If anything, most people, when they are not being restricted by PC doublespeak, want to have boys because having boys increases the size and power of the family. Whereas girls marry into another family and change their last names. And as Steve mentioned many times, family is the fundamental structure of society, so it is human nature to actually want to strengthen their families, and to do that, you need sons.
But you do raise a good point in that how can Amy Chua be a "Chinese mother" when she does not even have sons? In any Chinese community she would be ridiculed or even being criticized as being worthless for not being able to have sons. That is almost non-Chinese like.
"Do notice how, totally absent from Chua's upbringing, is any sense of noblesse oblige? In fact there is an undertone of hostility towards native born americans.
No sense of custodianship, no sense of stewardship."
Well, this is the woman whose aunt was murdered by a native Filippino (I think that was his ethnicity) servant over whose native land the Chinese hardly appear to exercise "custodianship." Not the word at all for this market dominant minority. But then the first couple centuries in North American, did the Europeans really seem interested in "custodianship?" Ownership of individual plots, yes. The national parks were an afterthought, supported at first by a few extremely wealthy people like the Drexels, who had reasons of their own, some altruistic, some not. They exercised influence over the government to protect these lands. But the custodianship did not naturally well up from caring American breasts for quite a while. It was a byproduct of having the luxory to afford it.
btw, I live v. near the Discovery building in Silver Spring where a man of ASian background attempted to take hostages, protesting the over-population of the world with "filthy human babies." He was not race-specific. Just that they were filthy and human and ruining the environment. He was shot dead. Now that's a committed environmentalist.
Virtually all contemporary pop music gets its melodic, harmonic, and thus formal vocabulary from Western classical sources. To be sure, sometimes at a few removes - but that is only to say that prog rock evolved from the the rock recension of the jazz recension of Western tonal harmony. This can be easily shown by making reference to the death of non-classically derived musics, both Eastern and Western, which have taken place in historical time.
For instance, the folk tunes of Western Europe all use classical scales and harmonies now, meaning that pre-classical elements have been rooted out from them; meanwhile, pop music from Africa to China has cast out its native instruments and melodic modes in favor of Western harmony, melody, and tuning. For suggestive evidence about how pre-classical Western folk music sounded, we can point to surviving manuscripts of 14th-c dance music, which used the diatonic scale but quite foreign harmonies, or to the folk music of the Magyars and the Balkans, which were assimilated to Western norms in the 20th century rather than the 17th century.
In short, Western classical music, like Western science, succeeded so completely that it exterminated its competition. No matter what kind of music Ms. Chua has her children play, it will be substantially Western - even if it's Chinese. She might as well make them play the piano so that they become too uptight to get into rap.
-bb
even before i knew much about the world or much about HBD, i always wondered about the east asian obsession with piano and violin. it leads to almost nothing, as i noted zero of the popular musicians were east asian, and none of the orchestral movie music was written by east asians either. yet there they were, grinding away on it. masters of instruments on which they could write nearly zero new or interesting music. i've seen some good players, there's no doubt. good at playing covers, though. that's what a symphony is, in case you never thought about it. a cover band. playing the same couple hits over and over.
it's classic east asian grinder stuff, as if we needed any more evidence. most of the time they have literally (not nearly, but literally) no presence on the billboard 200. they have almost no presence in academy award score nominations. but many of these "tiger parents" sure beat their kids over the head to master music written by some dead guy 300 years ago.
i bet a couple of these east asian kids could grow up to make interesting new music if they were allowed some freedom instead of being rammed into a beethoven straightjacket at age 8.
"Why are Asian guys angered rather than flattered that their women are in such high demand?"
So you like seeing white women with black guys?
"Full disclosure time, Steve - aren't you married to an Asian woman?"
Steven, say it ain't so.
SAY IT AIN'T SO!
I read the Amy Chua stuff all over the internet and it inspired me to yell at my 7yo until he memorized his addition tables. This stuff works!
John Mansfield: There's got to be a Saturday Night Live-type skit to be made of Asian Tiger Mother vs. Texas Cheeleader Mom.
Dude - you're just like Steve - you're giving away comedy gold for free.
You've just pitched what could be a $100 million comedy hit for some shekel-mongering Jew out in Hollyweird.
Learn to shut you mouff, cracka.
goober said...
"Why are we talking about interracial marriage in 2011? We should be talking about interracial procreation."
Why do white nationalist types think that all black men are impregnating all the white women?
I would bet most out-of-wedlock births are within the race since lower class types aren't exactly living in mixed neighborhoods.
The marriage stat is still has a lot of relevance since it points to the acceptance of interracial pairings.
It is one thing to fool around with someone from another race for a short-term fling, and it is a completely different animal to bring that person home to meet your parents & family and drop the bomb: "We are getting married."
Plus, people generally co-habit before mairrage, so it also tells us something about serious interracial couples.
1/31/2011
In case you haven't noticed, marriage has been on the decline and out of wedlock births on the rise for a very long time. At this point, among the lowest stratum of society, marriage is the exception. Over two thirds of births to black women are to unmarried women and for whites the figure is something like 25%. The total for all mothers is about 40%.
"Why do white nationalist types think that all black men are impregnating all the white women? "
No one said this, but you have to be really clueless to not be aware that among lower class young white women, having black baby daddies is increasingly common.
Also, among whites, the lower classes are the people most likely to live, work and go to school with large numbers of nonwhites.
It's obvious that there is larger amount of miscegenation that statistics about marriage indicate.
first couple centuries in North American, did the Europeans really seem interested in "custodianship
if you don't think ther are extreme differences with how, say, jews, chinese and North Europeans look at, and treat, nature, i suggest you have second thoughts.
Of course no one's going to think of national parks when the entire country is a vast wildnerness. .. but who's still killing endangered tigers for penis powder? and what ethnic group could live across from central park and not care to go in?
Do you think if NYC was Jewish domianted in the 19th century there'd be a central park? Ha ha ha
I think Steve has a case of "yellow fever" which leads him to vastly overestimate the appeal of Asian women to white men. I notice this a lot - white guys who like Asian women seem not to be capable of really understanding that theirs is a minority taste amongst white people. They seem to think everyone thinks like them and always talk as if everyone naturally prefer Asian girls.
I always thought this strange and peculiar. I mean, guys who favor blonds have no problem grasping that other guys might not share their tastes to the same degree. But for some reason white guys who like Asian girls seem to have a need to think other men share their tastes to the same degree.
I can only speculate, but I think the reason is probably something peculiar about the psychology of white guys who like Asian girls, i.e generally white guys who were not very popular with white girls and feel the strong need to believe that they are not "settling" for Asian girls, but that everyone finds them better.
Yet more proof that Tracey Ullman is a genius.
My question, could she get away with doing that in the year 2011?
Youth culture as a phenomenon and market niche only began in the 50s.
Which is when kids started watching TV. What an amazing coincidence!
@ Aaron
As a man who has been married to two white women and one Chinese woman, I can tell you that Chinese women make better wives. They are hard-working, loyal and thrifty. I don't think they are prettier than white women--although I got a very pretty one--but they have better moral character.
"Of course no one's going to think of national parks when the entire country is a vast wildnerness. .. but who's still killing endangered tigers for penis powder? and what ethnic group could live across from central park and not care to go in?"
Do you think if NYC was Jewish domianted in the 19th century there'd be a central park? Ha ha ha"
well fortunately the Wild West was won just before the buffalo became as extinct as the dodo bird. Chalk them apples up.
Some Chinese are trying--I saw a program about a doctor who was saving pandas. Treated them as like he treated his own daughters (he was very tender to his daughters unlike some Chinese.) Despite having been given our industrial base, they are a poor country generally. The Japanese have their environmentalists and they are effective. They eat dolphins but it was European ships that have trolled the ocean so deeply that cod is becoming an endangered species. I hope that's changed.
I have lived in Israel (tho I'm not Jewish) and the Israelis have planted forests and provide flowers for import. They are aware of environmental concerns and believe me, the lives of stray cats and dogs have improved immensely since this area became a Jewish state. Sadly one forest burned down outside Haifa last December.
The European has hardly been "custodian" to most places on earth unless he was deeply invested culturally, but I am no believer in the idea that Native Americans were custodians for the most part either. They were just not numerous enough to do much damage, that's all. But using the world's resources to creat the first world is why we have an environmental crisis now. The non-whites in poor countries are even worse because they have even fewer reasons to care. While many behaviors are genetic, I'm not 100% sure that taking care of nature is special to whites. Or anybody else.
And would Central Park exist NYC were Jewish controlled?
Huh?
@Heliogabalus
Those Taiwan teams were cheating--putting together all-star teams of over-aged players. The Chinese are scrupulously honest in their personal dealings--they would lose face by cheating an associate or failing to repay a debt--but they don't mind cheating the government on their taxes or gaming any sort of system. The have a sense of personal honor, but are not civic minded like Americans. Centuries of living under a government controlled by rapacious elites will do that to you.
mr. steve sailer, i think there is an implicit consensus (almost) among your hbd readers that we as a society can handle race-realism.... but...
are you sure that is so??
among lower iq whites, this can lead to the acceptance of violence and hatred of others whom they
Don't bother finishing that sentence. The alternative, as we have seen for decades now, is "blame whitey," which leads to the acceptance of violence and hatred of others whom they
these thuggish low iq whites (which constitute the majjority of this country) have to be controlled with "noble lies"
Then you'd better run your elite, brown, high-IQ ass outta here pronto, neh?
maybe we need myths and lies. maybe.
you take it as a given that the truth is always best, it probably is. ... but maybe not
Of course not! As long as it's our ox being gored, and not yours. Prick.
"I don't think they are prettier than white women--although I got a very pretty one--but they have better moral character."
Lousy at making White babies, though.
dearieme:
""..American upper-middle-class parents [are] far pushier than the British upper-middle-class":
>>didn't you explain that in a recent post of yours when you argued that admission to the best British Universities is more meritocratic than in the US?<<
Yes, all UK University admission is ability-based, ie 'meritocratic'. (Personally I'm not sure that my academic ability is a good measure of my 'merit', though).
That being said, the white men who go out with Asian women tends to be the nerd / geek types rejected by white women, so they are not exactly "better-looking" than Asian men. In fact, I dare say they might even be uglier and creepier.
Have you ever checked out yellow men? The low end of the white scale of masculinity do pretty well against them. The goofy/dorky/wimpy share of the yellow male spectrum is vast.
Everybody conforms to the values of the dominant society. In other words, we are all "Conformists". I can just imagine the frothing-at-the-mouth of all the immigrant-haters when immigrants do not conform to "American values." Hell, I can imagine them going rabid even if those immigrants do conform to the majority society.
Which is really saying nothing, since conformity is part of conforming for yellows, and not so much for whites or blacks.
It's obvious that there is larger amount of miscegenation that statistics about marriage indicate.
Not really. Social survey data shows black-white sexual relationships are roughly as likely to occur as black-white marriage. Maybe not definitive, but better than "it's obvious."
I think Steve has a case of "yellow fever" which leads him to vastly overestimate the appeal of Asian women to white men. I notice this a lot - white guys who like Asian women seem not to be capable of really understanding that theirs is a minority taste amongst white people. They seem to think everyone thinks like them and always talk as if everyone naturally prefer Asian girls.
Yep. Asian women are definitely less attractive than white women to this white guy. And I dig petite women. Now, once in a while you do see a white-yellow hybrid who can rival white female beauty.
"Do notice how, totally absent from Chua's upbringing, is any sense of noblesse oblige? In fact there is an undertone of hostility towards native born americans. "
That seems to be true of most recent Asian immigrants.
"Anonymous said...
Do notice how, totally absent from Chua's upbringing, is any sense of noblesse oblige? In fact there is an undertone of hostility towards native born americans.
No sense of custodianship, no sense of stewardship."
In other words, she does not suffer from white liberal guilt.
"While WASPs donate their land to the Nature conservancy, market dominate minorities scheme on ways to sieze."
Ooh, "scheme", I am surprised you left out the word "sneaky" when it comes to these Orientals.
Again, it is refreshing that she does not have any white liberal guilt, since it is exactly noble liberals like Buffet that is constantly "scheming" for ways to bring the Democrats into power.
"When the takeover of america by a hostile elite is complete, this isn't going to be pretty place to live, physically, morally, spiritually."
Ooh, "hostile", I love it, give us more loaded terms to show us how much you hate immigrants, please. And when one day they become the majority and decides to hate you back, please do not cry more.
"And would Central Park exist NYC were Jewish controlled?
Huh?"
Huh? Did you mean to write, "And would Central Park exist IF* NYC were Jewish controlled?"
"Aaron said...
I think Steve has a case of "yellow fever" which leads him to vastly overestimate the appeal of Asian women to white men. I notice this a lot - white guys who like Asian women seem not to be capable of really understanding that theirs is a minority taste amongst white people. They seem to think everyone thinks like them and always talk as if everyone naturally prefer Asian girls."
Since when had Steve wrote anything about "everyone" naturally prefer Asian girls? The closest I could find in Steve's article is this: "It would be interesting to try to quantify how much of the rage against Chua in the women’s’ press is motivated by inchoate feelings that Chinese women, with their naturally straight hair, are Stealing Our Men. (Before going to Harvard Law School, Chua’s handsome husband studied drama at Julliard alongside Val Kilmer.) "
Not exactly "everyone loves Asians girls", does it?
"I always thought this strange and peculiar. I mean, guys who favor blonds have no problem grasping that other guys might not share their tastes to the same degree. But for some reason white guys who like Asian girls seem to have a need to think other men share their tastes to the same degree."
Are you serious? Is that why blond women smile at us from every magazine, movie, poster, advertising, etc etc? I guess that is not a case of people projecting their lust for blonds onto the rest of us. Please ...
And blonds and white women in general age so badly. You will almost never find any white natural beauties over the age of 30. In fact, they are already losing their looks when they hit their mid-20s.
"I can only speculate, but I think the reason is probably something peculiar about the psychology of white guys who like Asian girls, i.e generally white guys who were not very popular with white girls and feel the strong need to believe that they are not "settling" for Asian girls, but that everyone finds them better."
Um ... I actually agree with you on this point. But then again, maybe they just do not want to marry somebody who looks like an old fat hag at the age of 30, if they even age that "gracefully".
"Anonymous said...
Unfortunately, our elites have been working to erase that distinction."
Are you trying to depress me, Steve?"
Yes?
but I am no believer in the idea that Native Americans were custodians for the most part either. They were just not numerous enough to do much damage, that's all.
umm yes they did, the reason there were just huge heards of just about, well, everything, by the time whites came in numbers is that european diseases reached indians sooner than most europeans - the wild populations represented a 'blow back' the same way, for example, if everyone in NYC died and you came in five years, you'd find 100X the number of rats and roaches.
Some Chinese are trying
And some whites are not, that doesn't change the fact that reverence for nature is unique to Europeans - the only culture that might have it as a part of their pysch are north Indians (hindu, bishnoi, jain).
Jews, most famously, do not, they are an in fact, largely agriphobic, thus my comment that if NYC were Jewish, rather than WASP dominated in the 19th century central park would never have been created, or even thought of.
Here's a parody of Amy Chua:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC3JTycmo8o
I don't find oriental women attractive, period, don't understand the fetish. They are materialistic, un-feminine, shallow. like machines. No real intellect.
@ Truth
"Say it ain't so".
First I don't know why it matters if Steve has an Asian wife or not. He's the most objective writer out there and I have never detected a bias in his work.
To wit, Steve discussed this article pretty fairly, although I'm currently unable to find his analysis of it.
http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/teen/teencenter/05nov_whiteflight.htm
Second, Steve gives slightly more weight to objective intelligence as measured by IQ versus the subjective "emotional intelligence" seen in social skills, conscientousness, and empathy. It is widely assumed Asians are great in the former and whites in the latter.
Given his lean in favor of IQ, it's perfectly consistent Steve would marry a high IQ woman.
He's always said he's NOT a racist. Maybe you'll start to believe him.
"First I don't know why it matters if Steve has an Asian wife or not."
I don't believe Sailer is a "racist" either. I'm not sure I even know what that means, but I do know that he seems anti-immigration, pro-nordic, and pro Norman Rockwell.
A man's choice of wife is the most significant and telling decision of his life. Malcolm X spoke of black unity and married a black woman. As an American (living north of Mason-Dixon) he could have married whomever he wanted, yet marring "Kristi" would have made people smirk at what he was saying. They may not be fair, but it is true.
Even the most neutral postal worker will be judged by his choice of spouse, so why would it be any different for a man who makes his living writing about the fundamental inferiority and superiority of the races.
Then of course it seems that most white nationalist scribe types (Steve does not meet these parameter IMO) have Asian kids.
"Steve's wife is Asian?????"
Shhhhh, don't mention my secret second family in Thailand.
And blonds and white women in general age so badly. You will almost never find any white natural beauties over the age of 30. In fact, they are already losing their looks when they hit their mid-20s.
This is a laughable and easily refuted belief that women with darker skin somehow manage to hide the signs of age better than lighter skinned women. I've heard one mother-in-law of a black female declare that black women don't get cellulite. Really? I saw an African woman in Europe who didn't appear much older than 30 with flabby, sagging triceps. She didn't also have cellulite on her thighs?
Signs of aging early on are somewhat sallow skin, guess this is harder to detect in yellow-skinned people cause their beauty was never of the rosy, fresh-faced kind.
Then there's the issue of scarring among darker skinned, olive toned people as well as problems with pigmentation on the face. Also, I've heard that blonds don't go grey nearly so early as brunettes. Though who can tell with hair color these days. Still, I think science or observation could bear out the truth of this.
I get so tired of this desperate attempt to beautify the multitudes of Asians, blacks or whatever at the expense of the ideal white women seen in the movies. Everyone ages. The signs may be a little different for each race but I dare say that while white's may fade and tend to look more fragile, darker skinned people will tend to look harsher, even haggard.
Take your pick but stop living in denial. ; )
"Do notice how, totally absent from Chua's upbringing, is any sense of noblesse oblige? In fact there is an undertone of hostility towards native born americans.
No sense of custodianship, no sense of stewardship."
"In other words, she does not suffer from white liberal guilt."
Noblesse oblige isn't necessarily founded on guilt. It could be based on a sense of duty and responsibility, which was the case with Anglos until the 60s when Jewish elites filled them with guilt, guilt, guilt.
But in Chua's case, her sense of duty and responsibility is more family-centered than anything else, more Godfatherish--or Godmotherish. Meet Don Chua. She make her children an offer they cannot refuse. If they no do homework, they wake up with their stuffed dolls beheaded under their blankets.
Kids also told 'either A+ or your brains on your report card' while Lucao Brashing stand behind them with gun pointed at backs of their heads.
I think Chua feels this way for two reasons. Her family rose from poverty to riches in both Philippines and US. Since they 'ate bitter rice' to rise to the top, why shouldn't others do the same? No one did her family favors, so why should she do favors to strangers?
Her duty to her kids is to push them, not treat them with 'noblesse oblige'--spoil them into brats, like the underclass and Unions in this country have been spoiled to laziness. (Maybe the horrible Chinese communist experiment also put a damper on Chua's view of socialism.)
Also, from her cultural background, even poor Americans have it too good, with all sorts of 'rights' and freebie entitlements. They've been spoiled rotten with welfare, decadence, and pop culture. So, her stress on greater discipline for kids has social implications whose message is STOP SPOILING THE CHILDISH UNDERCLASS; THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THEM RISE HIGHER IS TO PUSH THEM AND BE HARD ON THEM. TOUGH LOVE AND TOUGH LUCK. THE OLD AMERICAN PIONEER WAY Chinese style.
It's interesting that Jews also rose from bottom to top through great deal of work and talent. So, why are Jews more likely to be 'progressive'? One answer could be they are more conscientious and enlightened, more compassionate. Another reason could be Jews really don't want the goyim to rise up but instead prefer the goyim to be addicted to handouts so as to control them better.
Chua is misguided about some things, but she's less condescending and hypocritical than Jews who practice on thing among themselves while supporting a political ideology that spoils so many underclass Americans. From my observation(of Jewish friends), liberal Jews generally don't allow their own kids to do what their ideology and social policy urge the gentile underclass to do.
Jewish kids are not allowed to whine or watch too much TV(but TV dominated by Jewish execs encourage blacks to do nothing but watch TV and act stupid).
"Steve's wife is Asian?????"
"Shhhhh, don't mention my secret second family in Thailand."
What about the third one in Malawi, fourth one in Israel, and fifth one in Iran?
And especially shhhh about the sixth one is Sicily. Don Saileri doesn't like to mix business with family.
"I think Steve has a case of 'yellow fever' which leads him to vastly overestimate the appeal of Asian women to white men."
You guys are missing the point. Bamboo fever is not a big thing among the populace in general, but it has a certain cachet at places like elite universities. But there is also the bagel fever. Some people are attracted to successful/brainy/ambitious people. How else do you explain Robert Redford falling in love with Barbaric Streisand in WAY WE WERE?
"Virtually all contemporary pop music gets its melodic, harmonic, and thus formal vocabulary from Western classical sources."
True, but much of the rhythm, beat, groove, soul, and personality comes from black sources.
Jazz couldn't have been created by blacks alone or by whites alone. It was a musical case of miscegenation.
"And blonds and white women in general age so badly. You will almost never find any white natural beauties over the age of 30. In fact, they are already losing their looks when they hit their mid-20s. "
Uh huh, sure...this is just some weird rationalization. The only white people that age badly are the super fair-skinned ones, who are themselves a minority even amongst Northern Europeans. And if they avoid sun exposure even they look fine. In a cloudy environment they won't age any faster than anyone else. The only reason you think white women age faster is because you see lots of bleached blonde women who spent hours every summer baking in the sun at relatively low latitudes. That would age anyone.
Could it be western classical music became more appealing all around the world because it tends to be nude-istic while the music of other cultures were garb-istic?
Look at sculptures of the ancient world. Most cultures had statues of people dressed in specific cultural garb and elaborate-peculiar hairstyle. But Greek sculptures often emphasized the natural--the body denuded of culture-specific garb. When we you see a Hindu statue, you think 'a hindu'. When you see an Egpytian sculpture, you think 'Egyptian'. When you see a Babylonian or Assyrian relief--with men with thick beaded beards and specific garb--you think 'Babylonian' or 'Assyrian'. But when you see Greek nude statues, you don't necessarily think 'Greek'. It looks like 'man' or 'woman' in his or her natural essence. Of course, Greeks were very much into Greco-centrism, but their expressions implied something outside Greekness. And their architecture tended to expressions of certain geometric/mathematical principles than specific-culture. This is why a classical-style building seems at home in Russia, China, US, India, whereas it would seem odd for a Chinese pagoda to be in Germany. Also, Platonism sought the ESSENTIAL TRUTH that transcended mere cultural prejudice or bias--pure truth denuded of superstitutions, falsehoods, distractions, ignorance, and biases. And Greek obsession with science, logic, and mathematics stressed facts that were true not only in the Greek world but all around the world and universe. Logic, after all, applies to everything.
Of course, while classical architecture, literature, and sculpture had a profound influence on the West, ancient Greek/Roman music was all but lost and forgotten. However, the spirit of Classical Greece seems to have affected Western music too in the idea of striving for the higher essence in both its individual(personal/psychological) and universal manifestations. When one hears Western music, it sounds not only like the soul of French or German man but soul of MAN. This is why even western-style classical music works in movies like Kurosawa's RAN.
Even liberal naivete has roots in this belief that West arrived at values that all of mankind would want to adopt IF ONLY they were given a chance.
I've heard classical music grew out of the Church, but then the rise of Christianity was influenced by Greek culture since Saul/Paul was a Hellenized Jew and Jesus himself might have been influenced by Platonic ideals in the world he lived. Besides, even Judaism conceived of a God who was not only the deity of the Jews but the ONLY REAL GOD for all the world. Thus, Jews too also came up with a universalist idea, even if it took Christians to realize it to the fullest.
And even though Adam and Eve learn of shame with the fall of Eden, there remains the idealized memory of a time when man and woman were naked and with God. So, there is a longing in the Bible for the return to Eden where one can be pure and nudistic. The concept of Heaven allows mankind to be spirtually nude before God like a babe with his parent.
So, nudistic-ness doesn't have to be literal(like Greek sculptures). It could also be rational(logic is thought denuded of cultural-mystical mumbo jumbo)and spiritual(concept of spirit as universal than culture/region/ethnic specific). The music of Bach is both spiritually transcendant and 'mathematically' precise.
If it doesn't help the child very much, I wonder if being an excessively nurturing, helicopter parenting mom is a kind of mate guarding effect, more than it is to actually help the child (hyper K is social signalling, not directly adaptive).
Kind of a "Oh, I'm so busy and have devoted so much to this child, in the man-free domestic sphere, that I couldn't possibly cheat on you - I simply wouldn't have the energy. Plus, that other women, who's fun, you know she couldn't devote this much time and effort to a kid.".
Or possibly these women are artificially inflating the costs of having children to mate guard by avoiding partner infidelity - "if he thinks that having a kid costs this much and needs this much investment, he won't cheat on me by having one with that flaxen haired slut".
I read the Amy Chua stuff all over the internet and it inspired me to yell at my 7yo until he memorized his addition tables. This stuff works!
Addition tables at 7yo?!
Any good Chinese/Korean mother would resort to the rattan cane to force some calc into that child's head.
In Chinese society, charity is supposed to be provided by the government. Private charity isn't really done much, if at all. Your obligation as a Chinese citizen is to work hard, follow the rules, and not upset the social order. If you succeed, good. If you don't, nobody has an obligation for your welfare. In a lot of ways, Chinese/Asian/Oriental societies are low in empathy and have a coldness to them.
I do think Orientals can be good friends and family, but the concept of altruism and helping a stranger is not that strong among them. I live in an ethnically diverse area and I can tell you that Asians are generally much less willing to help out a stranger in trouble (ie let them use the phone). Native-born caucasians are typically much better in giving a hand to stranger in need. Interestingly, if you're familiar to them, Orientals are pretty helpful - the coldness is just with the stranger. I think native-born and 1.5 generation are better than FOBs too.
Jews are actually pretty philanthropic, from my experience. Their sense of civic mindedness is decent. I don't mind them as people, as they do have positive traits (smart, witty, creative, driven).... they've contributed a lot to the arts, sciences, business, industry.... Their liberal politics is not my politics, but I personally give them credit for their ability to get BIG things done. The only Jews I don't care for are maybe the black hatted Hasidics.
There's a tendency to view Jews unfavorably against WASPs, but what about Italians or Greeks or Slavs? Those white ethnic groups are no better and could be argued to be worse in many ways. Slavs especially. I understand that there's a lot of harmful liberal ideology and hypocricy that comes from their community, but I don't see any reason to dislike them as people. Our complaints should be ideological, rather than personal.
As far as aging and Asians--I'd always thought they didn't age so much, but what happens is -- and Asian women themselves have said this -- is that they don't change much in their 20s and 30s, but suddenly age very quickly in their 40s and 50s. I'd say that's true in general, though some keep more youthful, as do some whites. I think the difference is exaggerated. It's the more prominent bone structure of Caucasians that makes them seem to age faster. An Iranian guy told me he thought Persian women aged badly and early (he preferred non-middle-easterners) and that was actually kind of a common belief of some people I knew. But lately I've seen plenty of middle-easterners who age perfectly fine as anybody else.
It's a matter of not too much sun and good diet. I am also mystified at the idea that Indians don't show age. That's a very strange one. But I guess it's all in eyes of the beholder.
Very dark skinned blacks don't show age so much, usually. As you would expect.
7 years old is nothing. Try 5. My sister did that to my niece, and now doing the same to my nephew.
Typical Chinese behaviour. When it's only a minority doing that, it's still ok.
When it's a majority of Tiger moms, all bidding to out-do one another in order for their children not to lose out, you get a disaster in the making.
http://comment.straitstimes.com/showthread.php?t=41788
"And blonds and white women in general age so badly. You will almost never find any white natural beauties over the age of 30. In fact, they are already losing their looks when they hit their mid-20s. "
Really? I wouldn't have noticed. I see many natural and quite youthful beauties over 30 and I have lived in entirely white areas (Russia, Iceland).
But guess who are the most enthusiastic voices of this opinion? They show up regularly on any thread dealing with race and esthetics, sound remarkably similar, and often go on about the beauties of the most dusky among us.
Anyway.
I usually don't get involved in these sorts of discussions about who is the fairest of them all, because they're just opinions, but this one is expressed so simple-mindedly and is so patently absurd I must. I am not often bowled over at any greater youthfulness of nonwhites (I can usually guess their age, esp. after 30), though I don't keep statistics. Very dark blacks, maybe, don't show, but the degree of melanin is not the measure. Not a blonde afficiando, but was amazed at the looks of Icelandic and Russian women "of a certain age" when I was in those areas. In a contest a lot of them would have won in the youthful looks department. Blondes who have not baked in the sun are often the most youthful looking, partly because blonde is associated with youth. One Dutch woman I met had married an Indian and lived in southern India for 30 years. She somehow managed to get to the age of 60 with a smooth porcelain complexion on chisled bones to die for. Don't know how she did it.
And to cite current affairs:
With the notable exception of Barbara Bush, I would say every First Lady after Mamie Eisenhower, looks younger (or at least better) than the current one despite being older or same age as she at the time they were Fist Ladies. Give me a break about the aging already. It ain't necessarily so but I am sure some want to count on it for revenge.
One of the gems of Western Music, Chinese-style. An acquired taste at best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M13e1M76SqM
"Private charity isn't really done much, if at all. Your obligation as a Chinese citizen is to work hard, follow the rules, and not upset the social order."
Best charity is taking care of yourself so that others don't have to. Those who don't take care of themselves force other people to step in and do the job.
You might say a Chinese-American is more charitable than a black or Hispanic person(to the rest of society, especially the tax-payer)because he or she takes care of himself/herself. He/she doesn't burden the rest of us with their needs. Also, by not giving out handouts, they force the less fortunate work harder and become more self-reliant(and responsible). Tough love is the best charity(at least in cases where the poor are poor because of their own stupid choices in life).
Of course, there is tough love and simple indifference, and it could well be a lot of Asians care less, but is caring more necessariliy better?
There used to be a time when the poor and underclass APPRECIATED help from above, but today's poor have become corrupt and demand everything as a 'right'. There was a time when a poor Londoner took charity and said 'thank you guvnor'. Today, the British underclass holler, 'gimme my bloody rights, you facking shiite.' Today's 'compassion' is really a form of coercion where cynical elites exploit resentment of underclass laziness to squeeze the middle class. Heck, with Wall Street bailouts, compassion now applies to billionaire Jews too.
I was talking to some Chinese guy where I get my carryout. He said there is welfare in Hong Kong but many choose not to sign up out of the fear of losing face. They don't want the stigma of dependence. They still have some sense of shame. In America, even declaring bankruptcy is routine today. In fact, if you listen to all those radio commercials, bankruptcy even qualifies one as a victim--oh my, evil people are demanding that you pay back what you owe!! They are 'hounding' you!!
When American missionaries first went to China, they spread positive values such as civic duty, social concern, and etc. Today, all those things have become corrupted in the West. In the past, the well-off were awakened to the plight of the poor but the poor were also reprimanded and pressured to strive harder, learn more, be more respectable, and be grateful for help from above. Today, the poor just sit on their ass in front of their TV and holler, 'gimme more, mothafucka'. And there developed a cynical privileged class in government who maintain their jobs and benefits by pandering to the masses of dependent.
Even so, Asian societies prolly need to care more while we need to care less. In John Dower's book EMBRACING DEFEAT, he says there was was a lot of sentiment among the Japanese for the war orphans following WWII. But this sentiment did not develop into conscience, into a set of ideas and principles of moral responsibility. It's one thing to say, 'look at that poor kid'. It takes more than oh oh oh feelings to actually do things for society.
"at the time they were Fist Ladies."
that's "First" Ladies. one hopes
Ooh, "scheme", I am surprised you left out the word "sneaky" when it comes to these Orientals.
that too.
Interesting how East Asians have gone whole hog for Western Classical music (so much so that its future probably now lies in their hands) but Indians (dots, not feathers) show absolutely no interest whatsoever in it. (The only Indian musician I can think of in Western Classical music is Zubin Mehta.) Is it that Indian classical music is rich enough to sustain them, so they feel no need to look elsewhere?
Addition tables at 7yo?!
Hey, I'm an inferior monkey person over here. I'm so glad I'm not an Alpha, I mean Chinese. They work SO hard. They're so frightfully clever.
With the notable exception of Barbara Bush, I would say every First Lady after Mamie Eisenhower, looks younger (or at least better) than the current one despite being older or same age as she at the time they were Fist Ladies. Give me a break about the aging already. It ain't necessarily so but I am sure some want to count on it for revenge.
Are you that stupid? Really, you don't know why older women in the public eye look better and better all the time? HINT: IT INVOLVES SURGERY
Do you think if NYC was Jewish domianted in the 19th century there'd be a central park? Ha ha ha
Ha, ha!
"Do notice how, totally absent from Chua's upbringing, is any sense of noblesse oblige? In fact there is an undertone of hostility towards native born americans.
No sense of custodianship, no sense of stewardship."
"Well, this is the woman whose aunt was murdered by a native Filipino (I think that was his ethnicity) servant over whose native land the Chinese hardly appear to exercise 'custodianship'."
A lot of this has to do with ethnicity. More homogenous(or more dominant and secure the majority in) a nation, more likely it is to be into 'working together' or 'custodianship' or whatever.
Chinese in Philippines may be fearful, but Philippines has still been paradise to Chinese compared to China under Mao where 'capitalists'--broadly defined--were dispossessed and killed in the millions.
Yet, most overseas Chinese still feel closer to China than to non-Chinese nations where they prospered.
And Singapore is a Chinese-dominated society where people do 'take care' of one another. But Chinese are into 'conditional' statism than welfare statism.
Christianity fills the successful folks with 'guilt' and they feel obligated take care of the poor. Confucianism fills the elite with pride, and this pride could justify the power of technocrats like Lee Kuan Yew(to guide than pander to the poor). Lee's like the godfather. He likes to take care of his people, but his people have to show respect and be family-men. There was a strong moral element in Christianity(and even communism)where the elites pressured the poor to better/improve themselves, but sappy liberalism only panders to the poor as helpless innocent babes whose diapers need to be changed. Christianity and western liberalism have become soulless.
And Japan also has an extensive social saftey net. Confucius spoke of an ideal society as being like a big family, with the king(advised by wise scholars)as a father figure. Clearly, the feeling of family-ness operates better among a homogenous people of shared identity and race.
Though Christian morality is universalist than familistic, 'custodianship' also happens to be bigger in more homogeneous European nations. Despite the suppression of the ideology of blood, blood still matters.
Paradoxically, western nations that are most closely bound by blood tend to be most anti-blood in their ideology. White Canadians are more 'compassinate' than White American Southerners because Canadian whites can take white domination/security for granted. White Southerners who cannot take their well-being for granted tend to be more blood-oriented. So, demographically 'conservative'(homogeneous) people tend to be politically liberal, while demographically 'liberal'(diversely situated) whites tend to be politically conservative.
From my observation(of Jewish friends), liberal Jews generally don't allow their own kids to do what their ideology and social policy urge the gentile underclass to do.
Jewish kids are not allowed to whine or watch too much TV(but TV dominated by Jewish execs encourage blacks to do nothing but watch TV and act stupid).
Confuse and demoralize the youth of the goy
True, but much of the rhythm, beat, groove, soul, and personality comes from black sources.
Jazz couldn't have been created by blacks alone or by whites alone. It was a musical case of miscegenation.
I seem to recall some Jews had a hand in that
How else do you explain Robert Redford falling in love with Barbaric Streisand in WAY WE WERE?
Heh, very funny.
"Interesting how East Asians have gone whole hog for Western Classical music (so much so that its future probably now lies in their hands) but Indians (dots, not feathers) show absolutely no interest whatsoever in it. (The only Indian musician I can think of in Western Classical music is Zubin Mehta.) Is it that Indian classical music is rich enough to sustain them, so they feel no need to look elsewhere?"
Interesting observation. Indians have made notable contribution to Anglo literature but not much to Western music. They seem to be pretty good at spelling too. But this doesn't mean Indian elites are not interested in classical music. It just means they don't push their kids in that direction.
One thing for sure... most classical music trainees were steered in that direction by their parents. I doubt if most kids would choose classical music if they were given a choice. Most classical music students were introduced or forced into that stuff by their parents. In contrast, most kids who excel in pop music made their own choice. Elvis and Beatles didn't go into pop music cuz their parents told them so. (Though some parents, like Britney Spears mother, do just that.)
So, behind every great classical musician, there is a great parent who pushed the kid from an early age(at least today). Now, why would some parents push their kids to classical music?
1. Respectability and status(and maybe bring honor to family).
2. Keep kid away from filty pop culture and bad friends/influences.
3. Good training/practice for the mind.
It could be East Asians are more into these values. Also, there is the ideal in East Asia that self/social improvement should be open to all people. So, even poor East Asians want their kids to do better and rise up--like in the Chinese movie TOGETHER.
In contrast, the masses of Indians may have been told for centuries that their lot is to stick with their own cultural status.
So, if only the Indian elite show interest in classical music, it could be many non-elite East Asians are also interested in classical music as a status value for their kids to strive for.
Also, Indian music may have more spiritual value to Indians than East Asian music does to East Asians. Indian music isn't simply music but an expression of Indian soul. East Asian music is more an expression. So, maybe East Asians could more easily transfer their interest/loyalty from Eastern music to western music. It never struck them as betraying their own spiritual principles. But Indian music has been very spiritual, with Ravi Shankar doing all that Hindu-ish stuff with the sitar. So, for Indians to turn their backs on their own music would seem more wrong.
It could also be the climate. In hot India, the idea of men dressed up in black coats to play music may seem stuffy. They prefer to wear light clothes and just beat on drums and jam on the sitar.
It could also be that East Asians are more order-freaks and identify with the controlled or 'anal' nature of classical music. Maybe East Asians are also a rational 'ice people' whereas Indians have something of the creative 'sun people' about them. Classical music may be the most 'rational'--or rationally organized and developed--among all musical forms despite the fact of their spiritual origins or romantic thrust.
"Interesting how East Asians have gone whole hog for Western Classical music (so much so that its future probably now lies in their hands) but Indians (dots, not feathers) show absolutely no interest whatsoever in it. (The only Indian musician I can think of in Western Classical music is Zubin Mehta.) Is it that Indian classical music is rich enough to sustain them, so they feel no need to look elsewhere?"
-Its especially interesting since India was colonized by the British vastly more so than China, so theoretically, they should have been far more exposed to it culturally, and seemed to have picked up some other British pastimes, such as a fondness for cricket.
Or perhaps appreciation of "high culture" is linked to high IQ?
"Interesting how East Asians have gone whole hog for Western Classical music (so much so that its future probably now lies in their hands) but Indians (dots, not feathers) show absolutely no interest whatsoever in it. (The only Indian musician I can think of in Western Classical music is Zubin Mehta.) Is it that Indian classical music is rich enough to sustain them, so they feel no need to look elsewhere?"
Maybe it also owes something to separate developmental models of East Asia and South Asia. The key nation that determined that fate of East Asian modernity was Japan. Japan, though highly nationalistic, decided to tranform their country into a modern Western state. Japanese men wore western suits, Japanese students wore uniforms based on Prussian schools, etc. There was even discussion in the Japanese Diet to abandon Japanese as a language and speak English or German.
India, though under British rule, pretty much maintained its Indian-ness. This was partly because of the culturally 'tolerant' British policy of allowing other peoples to maintain their own cultures. (There's a truism that Brits were racially less tolerant and culturally more tolerant whereas French were racially more tolerant and culturally less tolerant.)
So, even though India was under British rule, it mostly maintained its own culture. To be sure, the British encouraged western learning among the Indian elites, not least to train them to be good collaborators--and people like Gandhi learned law in England. But, the British didn't want to modernize or westernize all of India since that might lead to a challenge or threat to British authority. It was in the interest of the Brits to keep most Indians culturally backward. So, British tolerance wasn't just enlightened and 'nice' but a shrewd means to keep the natives ignorant in their own superstitutions, thus powerless. Why would a person with a gun want those under him to own guns too?
Japan didn't come under foreign rule, and its rulers came to see modernization/westernization of Japan as a means to strengthen all of Japan into a modern power that could maintain its independence(and even exert its influence). And indeed Japan could not have become a great power if only its elite had embraced modernity while allowing 99% of Japanese to live by old feudal rules and values. For Japan to have modern schools, modern industries, modern engineers, modern scientists, modern businessmen, modern armies, etc, all of Japan had to be modernized, and in the early 20th century, modernization = westernization.
So, paradoxically, India, which was under British/Western rule, maintained more of its indigenous culture while Japan, in order to maintain Japanese uniqueness and boost its own power, adopted westernization much more thoroughly as a weapon; challenging the West made Japan more western.
And part of modernization involved the arts--painting, architecture, music, etc. It was during this time that Japan went all out to create its own version of western orchestras. And this model served as the basis for Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, and now China.
So, it could be that many more East Asians are enthusiastic for all-out westernization than Indians are. It also helps that Japan, Korea, and China are more homogeneous nations, so that the policies and agendas of the elites could more readily be accepted by the rest of the population. But India, with its different ethnic groups, religions, castes, etc, has had a harder time imposing a single modernization model on all of the nation--just ask Indira Gandhi who got rocks thrown at her for proposing beef as foodstuff.
Also, though adoption of English among Indian elite prepared for greater westernization among the upper class, it also drove a wedge between its westernized elites and the non-english speaking masses.
In Japan, the books written/read by the elite could also be read by any Japanese, as Japanese opted for translation of foreign books into their own language.
But in India, the elite most reads and writes in English, which means much of this knowledge is slower to transfer or be accessible to the larger population without proper education in English.
Indian classical music is linked to religion very strongly
And much of Indian classical music has a religious theme
The other popular part of Indian music is bollywood type music
"With the notable exception of Barbara Bush, I would say every First Lady after Mamie Eisenhower, looks younger (or at least better) than the current one despite being older or same age as she at the time they were Fist Ladies. Give me a break about the aging already. It ain't necessarily so but I am sure some want to count on it for revenge."
Are you that stupid? Really, you don't know why older women in the public eye look better and better all the time? HINT: IT INVOLVES SURGERY."
LOL. Got your goat? Yes, we have all seen any number of celebrities change over the past 30 years, and certain black celebrities who appear to have left their race entirely or partially. So yes, I am familiar with surgery. It's an EEO thing.
Anyway, my momma says stupid is as stupid does.
I based my first observations on ordinary women who had aged normally and whom I knew personally and no surgery was involved. Most couldn't have afforded it, and in some countries they scorn it.
I met a Korean lady in her 50s who had married an American, and who was going to Thailand for some "work." She looked attractive enough imo without "work" done, but not particularly younger than the whites we were sitting with, some of whom were also considering getting "work" done in Thailand. Some may have preferred her style of aging, but her age was obvious, and had its own appeal, as aging can, in any race.
LadyBird Johnson? If she had surgery, they forgot the nose, so I doubt it. Pat Nixon and Mrs. Carter had surgery? Doubt it. They looked pretty much like any fairly attractive middle-aged women in my mother's social circle. Nancy Reagan did but she was in her 60s. Hillary, but only recently. Bill could use some, btw. Eyebags. Laura Bush, probably no surgery. She was prettier in person than her pictures, and didn't look any more or less aged than any other 50-something of my acquaintance. If there was surgery it was well disguised. Pelosi -- she's probably on the no-more-surgery zone list.
However, if surgery is the answer to an agreeable countenance, please, get the word out to those in current public view (as long as it's not on the taxpayer's dime, like so many of their holidays) -- men included -- and spare our poor eyes.
>the "Mozart" effect does have scientific veracity though not just Mozart<
It has no scientific veracity. Here.
Why you not study before you comment, dum dum? Work harder!
Oriental moms are more ruthless with their kids because......
By "kids" you mean girls. Most of the Oriental wicked-stepmother-ism applies to girls, not boys. Boys are born into success; girls need to be pushed into it to bring esteem to the family.
People have historically lived on the brink of starvation in the Orient, much more than other regions.
Not quite true. Rice agriculture demanded high populations, which were more prone to famine than grain-producing regions. On the average rice had peformed better than grain, with more surplus to maintain a large population. But when rice "crashes", watch out!
Not to mention that even today, life is pretty severe in much of mainland China. Even in the more affluent parts, if a child doesn't make it to the university, he's basically shut out of the middle class.
Modern China is still very poor, that is true, with little upward mobility. But the point is, that China never had much upward mobility (except for the civil service exams) so there was no shame in being a peasant or laborer. Everyone had (and still has) his own place based on occupation, however humble, and was respected for it. Nobody was a "loser" in China for being poor -that label was for those with moral defects.
The high unemployment regimes of the West would be unacceptable in China, and Asia as a whole. That would be too much loss of face for too many people.
In the east, failure = death. Hence the harshness.
Being "shut out of the middle class" is not a death sentence in China. China and the West are both viciously competitive for middle-class positions - but China has more of a social and psychological safety net for the losers and failures.
Arguably, "failure = death" applied more to the harsh climes of Western Europe than to the sub-tropical rice-producing regions of Southern China.
Orientals are also more conformist, so "success" and "failure" are easily measurable.
Arrrgh! This whole "conformist" stereotype again.
No, Asians are not more conformist than Westerners. It just seems so, partly because of their low-conflict society, and partly because to Western eyes, "all non-Westerners look the same."
A better phrasing would be, it is more difficult for someone of one culture to see individual differences in another culture.
Asians, for example, are surprisingly tolerant of personal quirks, eccentricities, and autisms. They don't have the "crazy loser" mentality of the West (likely born of religious intolerance). They also don't have the same entrepreneurial drive because the "crazies" are more accepted in society and are not under a burden to prove themselves.
In the West, a successful painter might be considered as successful as a physician or lawyer. In the East, the hierarchy is more clear and if you don't rank high, you get ostracized.
I have found the reverse to be true. Painters and poets are generally better regarded in the East than in the West. There are not so many "starving artists" there; nor is art is a form of anti-establishment rebellion.
This blog time and again has proven experts on Asians and Asian culture.
I mean going ahead and simply uttering lines with not a hint of proof makes many believe they are right.
For example, the repeated line of conformity, uncreativeness, unwillingness to branch out among others.
During british rule in India, the only places with western musical instruments were churches and white only clubs
The Indian elite did not convert, and therefore did not come into contact with pianos and such, which were found in most churches.
Whereas in Indian music, there is a specific goddess Saraswati as the patron of arts such as music
>the "Mozart" effect does have scientific veracity though not just Mozart<
It has no scientific veracity. Here.
Why you not study before you comment, dum dum? Work harder!"
Yeah, I saw your link with the pregnant mom picture. Real heavy duty science there. But thanks for studying. Must have taken a couple seconds of concentrated googling to find that bit of popular science that has been making the rounds for years now.
I was already aware of the "it has no scientific veracity" argument and have read my share of the dispute.
I'll take "Superlearning 2000." Mozart detractors (Superlearning 2000 actually does focus on Baroque rather than all of Mozart) won in the popular mind, for the same reason most pop culture rejects any solution that might take some discipline and references European traditions. In my opinion, the Mozart effect is real because I have seen kids (not fetuses) turned around for the better by it, have studied the stats, and came to the conclusion the effect is real, if the kids are school age.
Classical music does focus the minds of most kids, if it is not forced and made a part of a general learning program. Whether they continue to like or play it as adults is almost irrelevant.
A better phrasing would be, it is more difficult for someone of one culture to see individual differences in another culture.
Asians, for example, are surprisingly tolerant of personal quirks, eccentricities, and autisms. They don't have the "crazy loser" mentality of the West (likely born of religious intolerance). They also don't have the same entrepreneurial drive because the "crazies" are more accepted in society and are not under a burden to prove themselves.
Right - cuz yellows dig harmony. Agreeableness. Not rocking the boat. (some people call this conformity)
I have found the reverse to be true. Painters and poets are generally better regarded in the East than in the West. There are not so many "starving artists" there; nor is art is a form of anti-establishment rebellion.
Well, I'll leave the kulturkampf-discussion bait laying there and point out that art as non-rebellion ain't exactly blowing my skirt up for your theory.
Descartes doesn't seem to like it, but damnit, the divining rod has tingled. It's somewhere near the relative lack of exploration, the relative preference for harmony, higher mean IQ, the historical lag, higher white T, etc. I'm telling you guys, you want to call it all cultural, but it's not. IQ just ain't the only trait largely determined/influenced by nature. You can read "yellows have higher IQs, all the rest is culture" from the book of HBD and then slam it shut and cry "the end" but I'm going to keep it open and read on.
>the Mozart effect is real because I have seen kids (not fetuses) turned around for the better by it<
I like Mozart and your anecdotal evidence is nice, but you have to understand the whole phenomenon, scientifically, is bunk; it was created as a marketing ploy in tandem with record companies like Sony to unload otherwise unwanted classical recordings on the public one more time.
That said, I repeat that classical music is good, Mozart is wonderful, and smart kids enjoy such stuff and should be introduced to its pleasures for that reason. It also may have a thug-repellent effect when played, loudly, in restaurants and retail stores.
"I like Mozart and your anecdotal evidence is nice, but you have to understand the whole phenomenon, scientifically, is bunk; "
Sigh. Just in case anybody is still listening. I should not have mentioned Mozart, however much I personally believe in the effect. Really. I should have just said Baroque. Bach, et. al., because I am basing my opinions not just on nice anecodotes, but on the science found in "Superlearning 2000" which anyone can peruse and come to their own conclusions. Although some Mozart compositions are included in their program, other composers are even more recommended.
http://www.amazon.com/Superlearning-2000-Triple-Succeed-Century/dp/0440223881
I am Chinese and I have a tiger mother. I think that she sucks. I even published a book about why I think so. Yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9CuBkjMEvM
tigermothersob.com
Amy Chua and Charlie Sheen are the same person!
chualysheen.tumblr.com
WINNING
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