An anonymous iSteve commenter has gone through a gallery of surveillance camera photos of rioters posted by the Birmingham, England police department and attempted to work out what the press hasn't been in a hurry to report. Granted, a lot of the pictures are pretty fuzzy, and most of the hoods are wearing hoods, but here are his estimates (feel free to go to the link and compile your own estimates):
Looking at those pics of rioters and toting them up in a spreadsheet - the demography is 60% Black, 35% White, 5% South Asian.
Demography of the city of Birmingham (where the shots are sourced from) is - " 70.4% of the population was White (including 3.22% Irish & 1.49% Other White), 19.5% British Asian, 6.1% Black or Black British, 0.52% Chinese, 2.9% of mixed race and 0.63% of other ethnic heritage."
So merging mixed race and Black, we have a per capita representation level of White - 0.5, Black (amalgamating Black and Mixed race in the American fashion) - 6.7 and South Asian - 0.25 (assuming they are all Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, those would have a rep of around 0.35).
Now since the demographics are younger around ethnic minorities and older among Whites, I'd say that it probably normalizes to age around 6-8x White representation level among Blacks and a 1/4x White representation level among South Asians (and you could take it as 1/2 White representation level among Muslims, if you assume they're all Muslims, and correspondingly assume 0 Hindu representation).
Of course, the totals as a whole might be Blacker or Whiter depending on how the other areas work out - I'd guess them to wash out at least somewhat Blacker and less White and South Asian, considering London is where the main action is at.
So, blacks 6-8X versus whites sounds about like the usual racial ratio in crime rates seen in America.
There's a lot of evidence that young white Brits commit more assaults and burglaries than young white Americans, but the ratios are not gigantically different.
Also, it seems like the white crime rate is much worse in Britain than in America because serious white youth crime has largely vanished from major cities in America, while it's concentrated in big cities in Britain. For example, in 2010, I looked through 2,600 homicides in Los Angeles County over a few recent years, and off the top of my head, I can recall seeing only one white-on-white youth homicide in a parking lot at night that didn't involve Armenians or other white immigrant groups. (That one was in exurban Stevenson Ranch). But, just because young white men in the biggest American cities tend to be middle class or higher these days, and stay well away from violent crime, doesn't mean that's true all across America.
We think of riots in the U.S. as being race riots and thus as being segregated, but that's probably not quite as true as it seems. For example, when my future wife in April 1968, after Martin Luther King was murdered, looked out her window on the ghettoizing west side of Chicago and said, "Look, Mom, free TVs! Let's get one!" a majority of the neighbors lugging TVs down the street were white. Same for the yuppies who looted coffeetable books of Impressionist paintings from Chicago's best book store on Michigan Avenue after the Bulls won in 1992.
In general, the term "race riot" can be misleading because there have been very few intercommunal mass riots in the U.S. in recent decades. We've had black v. middleman minority riots, as in blacks v. Koreans in L.A. Perhaps Crown Heights where blacks attacked Hasidim 20 years ago (and the Democratic candidate hasn't won any of the five mayoral elections in NYC since).
Something to keep in mind is that English riots tend to be less deadly than the worst American riots. The official death toll in South Central LA in 1992 was over 50, in Detroit in 1967 over 40 (and a reader whose father was an emergency room doctor in Detroit during the riot says his father told him the actual death toll was significantly higher), and in Watts in 1965 over 30. I presume that the large number of guns in America make a difference.
So, lots of American riots are, like these in London, "political shopping." But they tend to be more segregated because they are more dangerous, so whites who wouldn't mind playing smash and grab for a night or two tend to stay home because they don't want to risk getting shot by black rioters or by cops.
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When mass looting breaks out, it's hard not to go along for the ride. Humans are pack animals, and they're also greedy and materialistic.
During the LA riots some white people joined the looting in Koreatown.
Interesting analysis, though the South Asian numbers were probably slightly suppressed because of Ramadan.
On homicides:
Generally British whites have low homicided rates. Though predominantly white Glasgow, Scotland has the second highest or highest homicide rate in western Europe.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5733964.ece
From the article:
"The murder rate in Scotland now stands at 2.13 deaths per 100,000 people, the joint highest in western Europe with Finland and Portugal.
Between 2005 and 2006, the period covered in the UN report, the homicide rate rose from 1.59, an increase of 34%."
(Figures are still very tame compared to American city homicide rates). In the UK the main crime problem is not necessarily homicides (though obviously most traumatic) but assault and burglary.
"Most of the 109 homicides were recorded in the west of Scotland, which has a long history of gang-related knife crime. Glasgow emerged as the most violent city in western Europe with a murder rate of 5 deaths per 100,000, up from 4.49 the previous year."
This agrees with something I've been thinking a while: the impressive malice of the black prison population deters many marginal white youths from an outright life of crime.
All this unfortunate kidding about prison rape--the subject once made it into a seven-up commercial--is a kind of gallows humor. And maybe subtle deterrent.
"When mass looting breaks out, it's hard not to go along for the ride."
When the chances of getting killed are very high, it's very, very easy not to go along for the ride.
My guess is that American riots are less integrated because America is less integrated. In crowded Great Britain I imagine it's hard to get more than a few blocks from unruly minorities.
"When mass looting breaks out, it's hard not to go along for the ride."
No it's not. In fact it is so easy to not riot and not loot that right here right now, I am going to not riot and not loot. See, NO EFFORT.
But you say, mass rioting and looting ISN'T taking place where I am. Sure well enough I agree, right now anyhow. But I was in Cincinnati when criminals were running amuck for 4 days in 2001. Not joining in the looting and rioting and violence was so easy that I had to do absolutely nothing.
"The murder rate in Scotland now stands at 2.13 deaths per 100,000 people, the joint highest in western Europe with Finland and Portugal."
If "deadly" Scotland were a US state (size-wise it's not unrealistic) it would have the 10th lowest murder rate in the US. Even lily-white Oregon has a higher murder rate than Scotland.
Were Glasgow a state it would rank 29th.
The initial spark was black street gangs. The chavs joined in afterwards when they saw the police holding back. The police held back because initially it was black street gangs.
One cause of Britain's high crime rate: not enough people in prison. On a per capita basis the United States has about 5 times as many people in prison: 737 per 100,000 vs. 148 for England and Wales. Scotland has 134 per 100,000 in prison. Even then Britain's prisons are more crowded: 113% capacity for England/Wales, vs. 108% for the US.
The UK government is estimated to spend over half of that country's GDP, yet they don't even have one-fifth the prison capacity of the US. Where the hell does all of that money go?
One place it goes: public housing. One-sixth of all British residents are living in government subsidized housing.
@Jack Aubrey
Using the US as the baseline for the "acceptable" level of prisons is insane. We are an extreme outlier when it comes to prison population.
Not even Soviet Russia or China locked up as many people as we do.
I think it's fair to assume that there were almost no Hindus in the Birmingham riots, as British Hindus are mostly middle/upper class Gujarati-Indian, who own lot of property and businesses, or professionals. They're know for being pretty law abiding.
Probably a few Sikhs, but even they're not known for criminal tendencies. The vast majority of Asian rioters (I'd bet over 90 percent) were probably Muslims from Pakistani and Bangladeshi backgrounds.
In general, London Pakistanis tend to be more professionally oriented and entreprenuerial than Pakistanis in the rest of Britain, with plenty of their kids going on to higher education and good careers. Pakistani Muslims in Birmingham, and other industrial cities in the north, are more the trouble making type that get involved in youth gangs, prostitution rackets, drug dealing, etc. This reflects different waves of migration, as a lot of affluent/educated Pakistanis and NHS-recruited doctors went to London. The factory laborers went to the big industrial cities.
Putting Hindu representation at about 0, Muslims at 0.5x the white rate, and Sikhs at something in between (probably somewhere a little above Hindu) sounds about right to me.
In the U.S., a lot of white guys are afraid of getting bashed by blacks during riots (for good reason). In Britain, chavish white guys get along really well with the Jamaican black immigrants, so there's less racial fear.
Also, much of UK's white underclass is housed in council estates in the inner cities. Our white underclass is spread out and almost never lives in the inner cities of our major metropolitan areas anymore. This makes it hard to get to lucrative rioting spots or even assemble a critical mass of hooligans.
You'll notice that rural black Southerners don't riot or do flash mobs, despite their poverty.
One large city that's had a fair sized white underclass for a long time, due to pulling in lots of unskilled labor for the factories, is Detroit. During the 1967 Detroit riots, most of the arrested were black, but a large number of white guys got in trouble for looting and violence too.
I'd be that if we sent our white underclass to the cities, we'd see a lot more white American chavs and more white guys looting.
I am far more outraged by the looting of the whites than blacks. Shoot the whites and kick the blacks (and arabs and "asians") out!
...well I can fantasize can't I?
Assuming these ratios are right, that means that white British probably are no worse than American whites.
So either we're exaggerating how chavish British whites have become, or underestimating how bad white American guys can be. My sense is the latter. I've always had the feeling that we have a lot of white trash in America, but they're overshadowed by much more problematic NAMs. White trash are also not present much in our big cities.
If we had fewer minorities like Britain (5 percent Asian, 5 percent black), maybe our white underclass would be a lot more visible. Especially if it concentrated in our big cities.
Don't forget that a lot of blacks in Britain are Jamaican or African, who are better behaved than American blacks. If white British are arrested at 1/8th their rate, white British might be even better behaved than American whites.
"You'll notice that rural black Southerners don't riot or do flash mobs, despite their poverty."
I live in the deep south. Unfortunately you're wrong. I've seen several "youths" start slugging at each-other in the middle of a crowded McDonalds, to the point that the cops were called. There is a fight or near-fight outside the local movie theatre just about every Friday and Saturday night. There was a flash mob style scenario on the 4th of July in an AL city in which a bystander was grazed by a bullet. Apparently the altercation involved "around 100-200 youths gathering".....The list unfortunately goes on and on. I'm not sure if they are necessarily flash mobs in the sense that they target clothing stores and the like, but we do have more than our fair share of disruptive mass crime gatherings, at least in any place with more than 15,000 people.
Are we sure that the police posted any biased selection of pictures?
Robert Hume
"Using the US as the baseline for the "acceptable" level of prisons is insane. We are an extreme outlier when it comes to prison population."
Lengthier prison sentences are a proven method of crime reduction. They deter crime by those who can be deterred and keep the irredeemable off the streets. I've known plenty of Americans who should be in prison who aren't, and by all accounts Great Britain is more lenient on criminals than the USA.
Great Britain, a nation of 63 million, a nation where the various governments monoploize about half of GDP, has room in its prisons for no more than about 90,000 people, or barely 1 in 700 residents.
"In Britain, chavish white guys get along really well with the Jamaican black immigrants, so there's less racial fear."
I dunno, having lived in London I seemed to notice a low level but consistent pattern of violence against young whites by young blacks. For example, the brother of an 'East Enders' star was stabbed to death by a black 'youf' , and a minor actor in the Harry Potter series was killed by a mixed race young man. As in the US, however, most black crime is against other blacks.
Maybe Southern blacks aren't as docile as I imagined. I don't hear much about violence in the rural south, so I assumed it wasn't so bad down there.
At least they're fist fighting on the weekends, rather than killing. It could be worse.
Out of curiosity, what does the average conservative white southerner think of the black kids he sees around his town? There's got to be a lot of personal interaction between races in a small town, and the whites must notice that blacks are diferent from rednecks. If a group of blacks starts hollering at a group of white girls walking down the street or harasing a local redneck youth, I can't imagine white southerners don't register what's happening and perhaps object to that.
I'm asking because, in my wonderful city, probably 3/4 of the population are Democrats. So you're not going to get an honest discussion going on that taboo.
It's amazing that government gobbles up more than 50% of GDP in the UK. It seems that citizens in France, Germany, and some other EU countries get more value from their taxes than Brits do, in terms of government services and infrastructure.
The huge fatality rates in US riots are definitely a major difference from the UK. England was torn apart by 4 days of riots across our cities and there were around 5 deaths total, 3 in one incident.
The respectable German newspaper Die Welt reports this:
www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article13542760/Die-meisten-Angeklagten-bestaetigen-alle-Klischees.html
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Welt)
title/subtitle:
=======================================
Riots in the UK
Most defendants confirm all stereotypes
Dispensation of justice on the assembly line in a 24-hour court: Despite a few exceptions most defendants confirm all stereotypes:foreigners, criminal, unemployed.
=======================================
from the article:
=======================================
Half of the accused are minor
In recent days many British media reported on defendants that did not confirm typical prejudices against rioters at all. There was the aspiring social worker who stole a flat screen TV, the student who swiped two T-shirts, or the elementary school teacher who broke into a music store.
A night at Westminster Magistrates' Court, however, conveys a different picture: Almost all suspects have a migrant background, no job, but a sizable criminal record. About half of the defendants are minor, yet parents hardly felt the need to appear in court.
=======================================
Jail, in major urban American centers, is just no fun for whitey.
onymous said... @Jack Aubrey Using the US as the baseline for the "acceptable" level of prisons is insane. We are an extreme outlier when it comes to prison population. Not even Soviet Russia or China locked up as many
Pffft. Whatever. China and russia don't have the shitbirds we do. Come out of your suburb and the rest of the world.
Nice to see that Welt article. It is Germany's "conservative" mainstream paper.
Times are a-changing. I heard a report on NPR today about disgruntlement with immigrant crime in Greece. A couple of regular people fed up with immigrant crime were allowed to speak at length without being portrayed as evil racists. The report did not have the anti-racist tenor one would expect from NPR. However, the reporter, a female, spoke the whole time in a bizarrely mollycoddling tone, as if she were reading a fairy tale to children.
"You'll notice that rural black Southerners don't riot or do flash mobs, despite their poverty."
I live in the deep south. Unfortunately you're wrong. I've seen several "youths" start slugging at each-other in the middle of a crowded McDonalds, to the point that the cops were called. There is a fight or near-fight outside the local movie theatre just about every Friday and Saturday night. There was a flash mob style scenario on the 4th of July in an AL city in which a bystander was grazed by a bullet. Apparently the altercation involved "around 100-200 youths gathering".....The list unfortunately goes on and on. I'm not sure if they are necessarily flash mobs in the sense that they target clothing stores and the like, but we do have more than our fair share of disruptive mass crime gatherings, at least in any place with more than 15,000 people.
I concur. Most people have no idea about the level of violence in the "Dirty South". We're talking MS,AL,LA, eastern AR, and west TN. It is a completely different world. Most Americans have a Hollywood idea of crime and gang culture: they see it as a Crips/Bloods/MS-13 urban thing, not knowing that small southern towns, and even villages, are filled with the Chicago Vice Lords/Gangster Disciples scene, and have been for over three decades. Since gang members tend to reproduce at a young age, we're seeing third and even fourth generation gang members there. It's pointless to describe whether they "flash mob" or not. The level of criminality is a complete drain on the moral and social structure of those communities. Let's not forget that Greenville, MS, a town of 40,000, had the highest per capita murder rate in the country in the early 90s. If one of those British thugs got dropped down into some Mississippi Delta town like Indianola or Belzoni, he would get eaten alive.
"Maybe Southern blacks aren't as docile as I imagined. I don't hear much about violence in the rural south, so I assumed it wasn't so bad down there."
They used to be, more religious I think with many also having a lot of farming/do-it-yourself type skills. Things are changing rapidly. Remember the story about the blacks gang raping an 11 yo Hispanic not to long ago. What I hear is that the drug trade moving into rural communities is largely to blame.
Also, illegitimacy and welfare. Maybe there was a period when religious blacks in small communities were more conventional wrt these issues. And I have in recent years in Texas become aware of numerous small towns that are majority if not all black that will not have nearly enough jobs for all the adults in the community.
Still, I remember interacting with numbers of "country" blacks in the 80s who at least came across as much more traditional in outlook than what you'd expect out of an inner city but I also remember them having problems with things like drug addiction when the rural whites almost never did back then.
"My sense is the latter. I've always had the feeling that we have a lot of white trash in America, but they're overshadowed by much more problematic NAMs."
You're an idiot. Stop trying to be clever. I can find you any number of communities of Asian trash who exhibit all the dysfunction of NAMs and then some. White criminals don't seem as prone to organized crime (and we know you aren't talking about Italian mafia), for one. Second, there's no need for a certain level of gratuitous violence in order to establish turf or warn potential snitches.
I suspect if Steve were interested in the subject, he could locate samples of criminal Asians from all backgrounds throughout CA. In fact, he's not shy about this in relation to Armenians and Russians who aren't typically considered when discussing minority criminality.
There's simply not enough room at the top for all people of one race/ethnicity. The more immigrants from each country along with a greater number coming from lower classes will inevitably lead to those who resort to crime to survive. Many of them already seem involved in organized crime (i.e drug and human trafficking) even before they get here.
The only time lower class whites seem to have a real problem with obeying the law is when something that was formerly legal becomes illegal.
Anonymous said...
@Jack Aubrey
Using the US as the baseline for the "acceptable" level of prisons is insane. We are an extreme outlier when it comes to prison population.
Not even Soviet Russia or China locked up as many people as we do.
That's because 12.5% of our population is one very highly violence-prone group, and another 15% is another reasonable high (higher than whites) violence prone group.
"It's amazing that government gobbles up more than 50% of GDP in the UK. It seems that citizens in France, Germany, and some other EU countries get more value from their taxes than Brits do..."
Well the primary function of government is to protect its citizens from enemies foreign and domestic. As mentioned, British prisons have room for only about 90,000 inmates, per capita only about 1/5th the capacity of US prisons. The Royal Navy is down to one pint-sized aircraft carrier, the HMS Illustrious, capable of carrying a mere 20 aircraft; and it possesses less than 20 destroyers and frigates. And now the UK Border Agency is slashing about 5,000 positions from its roster.
So the British government is:
1) Incapable of controlling domestic invaders.
2) Incapable of repelling foreign military invaders
3) Incapable of repelling foreign irregular invaders (i.e., "immigrants," "asylum seekers," etc.)
This is what happens when the primary role of government shifts from protecting the people to feeding them. The chief role of government is ignored and the people vote for politicians based on the goodies they distribute.
"The huge fatality rates in US riots are definitely a major difference from the UK. England was torn apart by 4 days of riots across our cities and there were around 5 deaths total, 3 in one incident."
Yes, not enough eggs were broken this time to make an omelette. Which means that there will likely be a next time. I wonder how many eggs will be broken then?
"Are we sure that the police posted an unbiased selection of pictures?"
For example, show blacks only if clearly convictable. Show whites if any possibility of being convicted.
Or show whites if they could be a witness.
Or show whites if they were in the vicinity before or after the riots.
Robert Hume
It is remarkable that a major country, like Britain, can suffer a social catastrophe yet the media no longer sees its role as protecting society through objective and truthful reporting.
No-one who reads or contributes to this blog will find this remotely surprising, and indeed it has been increasingly the case for several decades.
However, for anyone brought up in the UK, or the Colonies, who watched the distorted BBC coverage and "analysis" of the race riots, the extent to which the media is now part of the problem, and an instrument of our destruction, is almost impossible to grasp.
As long as the BBC, and similar organisations, function to weaponise our tax money against us, we will continue to suffer.
It is crystal clear what needs to be done. They need to be purged, as does the educational system which produced them.
Anon.
Maybe Southern blacks aren't as docile as I imagined
Actually they are, comparatively. NFL and NBA scouts routinely prefer blacks who grew up in the South, because they're less resistant to taking direction from white coaches. Obviously, there will be exceptions, like Jamarcus Russell.
We know that Indians and Pakistanis started the riot in Birmingham:
Pakistanis and Indians Jailed for Starting Birmingham Riots
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2011/08/11/saltley-man-first-to-be-jailed-for-birmingham-riots-full-court-report-from-first-day-of-prosecutions-97319-29216078/
--
I wonder about two things in regards to these riots?
1) What do the old surviving British veterans think about all of this? Did they ever imagine this would be the Britain they gave up several of the prime years of their lives fighting for? Did Monty's soldiers in the 8th army, sweltering in the desert heat, freezing in its night, ever dream this would be the country they would live out their final years in?
2) How is this playing out in other countries in Europe? I bet the Poles in Warsaw, for instance, are very glad they are not in the same boat and have been spared the "joys" of diversity, via Jamaiacan and other black foreigners. Maybe there were some hidden benefits to the old iron curtain after all?
"if you assume they're all Muslims, and correspondingly assume 0 Hindu representation"
Steve,
Where are you getting these people? USINPAC?
To see how hostile Indians in the UK are toward whites just read Homi J. Bhabha, or better yet, check out Ramesh Sharma, whose anti-white writings can be found on many British websites:
“Blond hair and blue eyes are a biological defect.”
“The white race is a disease, and the only cure is a bullet. The rule of whites is history. Soon they will be our slaves. It’s now the Age of the Brown Man.”
- Hindu nationalist, Ramesh Sharma
"Who is rioting?"
Sounds like the caption of an Onion infographic.
You made a mistake in the demographic breakdown of the Birmingham riots. That is: why limit the sample population to Birmingham?
Why were people rioting in 6.1% black Birmingham but not in, oh, Stornoway, Dundee, Cardiff (1.3% black), Edinburgh, York, Perth, Plymouth, Aberdeen, etc?
Your count dismisses as irrelevant the dogs that didn't bark.
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