Here's an article from Inside Higher Ed about the growing demands for firefighters to have college or even advanced degrees.
The commenters at Marginal Revolution don't get what's going on: hiring and promoting firemen revolves around the never-ending lawsuits involving discrimination or reverse discrimination: Ricci, Vulcan Society, etc. This fact shouldn't be mysterious, because these lawsuits have been going on for 40 years. Big city newspapers have frontpage stories about these fireman and cop lawsuits several times per year.
Now, courts have gone back and forth on the disparate impact in hiring and promoting of testing knowledge of firefighting techniques. In Ricci, the Supreme Court said the city can't change the rules after the game has been played. But, but Judge Garaufnis's ruling in Vulcan Society in New York was super-fundamentalist about disparate impact.
In contrast to judges' uncertainty about employers' direct testing of relevant knowledge, courts over the decades have shown enormous deference to employers requiring college degrees.
What we've seen over and over is that white guys, especially ones from fireman families, study firefighting much harder on average. As Emily Bazelon complained in Slate about Frank Ricci and other white New Haven firemen:
"As one Hispanic quoted anonymously by the New Haven Independent put it, the test favored 'fire buffs'—guys who read fire-suppression manuals on their downtime …"
That's just not fair!
But, now think about making degrees mandatory from the point of view of white firemen: So, if us white guys like studying firefighting so much, we can either do it on our own for a test (legally suspect) or go to the local JuCo and get an associate's diploma in firefighting (legally A-OK). And us white guys who want to be fire lieutenants can take a lot of U. of Phoenix courses and get a B.S. in Fire. And us white guys who want to be Fire Chiefs can get a Fire Masters.
Is the Obama Administration going to take on the Higher Education Industrial Complex? That's their base.
But, now think about making degrees mandatory from the point of view of white firemen: So, if us white guys like studying firefighting so much, we can either do it on our own for a test (legally suspect) or go to the local JuCo and get an associate's diploma in firefighting (legally A-OK). And us white guys who want to be fire lieutenants can take a lot of U. of Phoenix courses and get a B.S. in Fire. And us white guys who want to be Fire Chiefs can get a Fire Masters.
Is the Obama Administration going to take on the Higher Education Industrial Complex? That's their base.
That's how we do everything else in America, so why not fire departments, too?
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47 comments:
Well, you've left hanging that there is a huge economic cost to this over-credentialism. Sure, the JuCo's 1% of top-level administrators do OK, but the firemen taking on the student loans, what do they get out of it? And the tax payers paying for the bonds for the JuCo to build their semi-lavish facilities, what do they get out of it?
There are two economic exponential growth curves (bubbles if you prefer) yet to pop: academic credentialism and healthcare. Both are largely rent-seeking monopolies entirely reliant on the Federal Govt's aiding and abetting.
The way things are going with 'hate speech' laws, firemen will burn books.
You are insightful and brave. Good post.
Hi Steve-- off-topic, but note that another respectable, sophisticated, establishment figure has echoed your theory of the diversity recession.
It's ot but: were the "firefighter"/"fireman" change-ups deliberate? Cuz I've found myself accidentally fumbling them... for whatever reason "firefighter" just isn't verbally taking for me. I'm not some patriarchal troglodyte--I'm already saying "Chair of the board" and "Congressperson" well enough...
Now the nat'l female proportion of "first responders" is under 4% but I have no idea how many of them are literally running into burning structures (as opposed to fire ecology/arson site detective jobs). NYC uniformed female firemen are 0.2% last I read about 'em.
"There are two economic exponential growth curves (bubbles if you prefer) yet to pop: academic credentialism and healthcare. Both are largely rent-seeking monopolies entirely reliant on the Federal Govt's aiding and abetting."
What happens when the former "pops?" Will some of the last people to get degrees when everyone's getting them benefit down the road, or will nobody in the future care anymore?
This over-reliance on academic credentials is undervaluing things like experience and natural talents. Book-learning is fine for people like certified public accountants, but I'm not sure I'd want firemen coming to my house that had merely trained at some school to fight fires, and had no calling for it.
Every kid growing up at one time dreams of being a heroic fireman, but that does not mean they're cut out for it. Having to go to school for everything is great for the academic industry, but I think its actually harming those who used to see themselves as entering a calling as opposed to a job, and not everyone is comfortable learning in a formal academic setting.
I certainly would prefer firemen be apprenticed to experienced firemen and learn the in and outs from them in real-life settings than merely reading books about it. Running into burning buildings and fireman-carrying people out of harms way does not seem to me to be something that can be adequately taught from a book...
So what you're saying is that most fires are arson. Get to whatever generates the urge to set fires. Stop fires before they happen.
I think you are underestimating the intellectual requirements of modern firefighting.
A large part of their work is prevention: permitting buildings, which requires calculating flow pressures and volumes, air flows, materials, etc. Operating firefighting equipment and chemicals is very complicated.
The firefighters performance in Trade Towers fire and collapse was dismal, but the final diploma of incompetence was the nearby Deutsche Bank Bldg. destruction, that was so mismanaged that half the city was contaminated with toxic mold spores and the building had to be isolated and destroyed.
And 300 of them went stupidly to their deaths.
I think a BAS in Fire will certainly improve the service, people is hired and advanced on their academic credentials everywhere, and most in successful countries like Germany and China.
And the tax payers paying for the bonds for the JuCo to build their semi-lavish facilities, what do they get out of it?
LOL, more like semi-decrepit.
I've believed that there will be a mass forgiveness of student loans in this country as people owe too much for worthless degrees. Obama's recent policy on putting a limit on how much and for how long you have to pay seems to be a big step in this direction. The Federal governmenet will absorb the loss on the guaranteed loans. You have to wonder how much creditors of the Federal government can stand. Got gold? I sure do. :)
These days many college grads need the work.
"but I'm not sure I'd want firemen coming to my house that had merely trained at some school to fight fires"
Who on earth is saying that that's going to happen?
Problem solved!
(That's a bad thing?)
It will be all fun & games for white firemen hopefuls until fire dept quotas of the municipalities will be moved to fire fighting dept quotas of the schools. Then it will be back to square one.
Colleges are highly uneven in quality and difficulty. Needless to say, nobody is proposing a standardized firefighting curriculum with a fixed math and science component. Add in the prevailing grade inflation meant to insure maximum pass rates and one can see why replacing a standardized test with a fuzzy college credential is the preferred method for engineering diversity in fire departments. To increase the qualified minority applicant pool, one just opens the spigot of public money further for diversity scholarships to firefighting programs.
Of course, there is another joke a lot of people aren't getting. Communities under the greatest political pressure to hire subpar black and Hispanic firefighters tend to be the poorest and most ethnically diverse. However, poor communities are far better served by hot shot third generation white firemen who more capable of keeping a town full of aging wood frame buildings and sub-code apartments from going up in flames, not to mention preventing its afflicted residents from ending up as crispy critters.
So what you're saying is that most fires are arson. Get to whatever generates the urge to set fires. Stop fires before they happen
mayor bloomberg cut fire inspectors from 400 to 80 during the hieght of the real estate boom and fires were breaking out all over brooklyn.
The papers always report how Joshua Gutman has been 'devastated' by the fire that destroyed an historic waterfront warehouse up for landmarking.. and 'shocked' that anyone could accuse him of arson.
This over-reliance on academic credentials is undervaluing things like experience and natural talents.
we really should move (back to) an apprentice based model -better for 'students' better results. take the case of art, the old atlier system produces people that can actually paint vs. talk about art and create 'artist statements'
look at the student work of this atleier http://grandcentralacademy.classicist.org/
compare that with 'art schools'
"So, if us white guys like studying firefighting so much, we can either do it on our own for a test (legally suspect) or go to the local JuCo and get an associate's diploma in firefighting (legally A-OK). "
Or, you can just go back to volunteer fire dpts. Without the juicy incentives, I imagine lots of those wannnabes would disappear. Ironically, the standards might not be as high since they wouldn't be tied to a pay scale.
Sad though. Firefighting is probably on par with nursing, EMT and cop as far as ability level. I'd hate to think we were getting short shrift in those other professions which do have plenty of minority hires. (And nursing in there actually requiring those college degrees, imagine!)
This "us white guy" rhethoric obscures what's really going on. These are not just any white guys, they're the sons and nephews of current firefighters. So they're not studying more than everyone else because they just naturally love fire fighting, but because they have someone to show them the ropes and tell them what they need to do. Moving the process out to JuCo makes it more transparent and "fairer"; now nephews of firefighters will have to pay a college professor to show them the ropes, just like everyone else.
Even if increasing transparency doesn't change the racial balance, I bet it will change which white guys you end up with. Instead of a bunch of Irish and Italian guys, you'll get more Ukranians and English guys and Irish guys whose relatives don't happen to be firemen.
Of course having to pay colleges will be hugely more expensive than getting free pointers from your relatives, so the increased transparency may not be worth it. It all depends how much you value a level playing field vs how much you value strong family ties, and whether that unconnected Ukranian is appreciably better than the Irish nephew he's beating out. But at any rate there's more going on than just a pure waste of time.
Affirmative action will just rear it's ugly head in the halls of academe. The education establishment will do what they are doing now: dumb down the curriculum required for a degree or certificate to allow minority enrollees to graduate.
The commenters at Marginal Revolution don't get what's going on...
Wonders never cease.
Steve, great post. Part of the "mystery" of rising tuition and scamming the middle class into getting (worthless) college degrees is making the degree a requirement so that employers don't have to prove they aren't racist (you see we just require a degree for receptionists). It's part of the dance that corporations do with university socialists that allow both to get what they want--at the expense of the country, of course.
If conservatives are smart, they'll go after universities. Problem: conservatives aren't smart.
And of course there will no doubt be government programs to shovel the money of white taxpayers into paying for the firefighting degrees of blacks and Hispanics, once it becomes apparent that white males are disproportionately likely to go and obtain said degrees.
My mother's 2nd husband was a career fireman at LAFD..WWII vet, 6'5", even had red hair. Didn't graduate high school. He also did cement contracting and real estate on the side. A man of action! And as far as I can tell, a great fireman who saw a lot of shit.
Around 1964? he wanted to study to be chief, because the dept was aboput to start requiring a couple years of college for chief and he'd be excluded. He couldn't hack studying, or didn't pass.
Now, this was before the disparate impact suits. So the trend may have already been in place, but there could well have been a lot of pressure from the south central area to accept more NAMs.
Another side effect, which I am sure is purely a coincidence, of firemen being required to go to college, is that your local fire department will get to charge you more for their services.
And eye of horus is absolutely correct. Fire fighting like police work, is not something that can be learned in a classroom.
From firemen to 'fire white men'.
"I'm already saying "Chair of the board" and "Congressperson" well enough..."
don't forget gunperson/gunuser/gunhuman too.
Man-made global warming denies the women's oppressed coal-burning past.
If those damn white firemen would quit spending all of their time studying it would make more room for black firemen who aren't trying to game the system.
I understand the motivation, but it makes me sick. We should be able to "just take the test" for more jobs, not less. Now, if professional programs allowed students to gain credit by registering just for the final test (and a final project), for a small fee, I'd be all for it.
"It's ot but: were the "firefighter"/"fireman" change-ups deliberate? Cuz I've found myself accidentally fumbling them... for whatever reason "firefighter" just isn't verbally taking for me. I'm not some patriarchal troglodyte--I'm already saying "Chair of the board" and "Congressperson" well enough..."
It means absolutely nothing. Linguistics might give us insight into the attitude towards the genders in the past, but your current use of the historically proper English language doesn't say anything about your perception of women. I use "firefighter" fluently because that's the word I grew up with. On the other hand, I've never used "Congressperson" because it just doesn't roll of my tongue. Unless the person in question is definitely a woman, I tend to say "Congressman", and I'm not a patriarchal troglodyte either.
This "us white guy" rhethoric obscures what's really going on. These are not just any white guys, they're the sons and nephews of current firefighters. So they're not studying more than everyone else because they just naturally love fire fighting, but because they have someone to show them the ropes and tell them what they need to do. Moving the process out to JuCo makes it more transparent and "fairer"; now nephews of firefighters will have to pay a college professor to show them the ropes, just like everyone else.
Right, because there's no value in the kind of deep, nonverbal communication possible among the closely related, not even when shit is on fire.
"Affirmative action will just rear it's ugly head in the halls of academe. The education establishment will do what they are doing now: dumb down the curriculum required for a degree or certificate to allow minority enrollees to graduate."
Very true. Still, you'd be surprised how hard it is for some people to come to class even once. Even harder is the task of completing more than 20% of assignments. Reading is often out of the question. Also, it's, sometimes, impossible to not copy and paste the first document that pops up in Google search when working on the final paper. In my graduate education classes, the curriculum is so dumbed down, a retarded monkey on Valium could get an A. Yet, many people are failing because they just aren't handing in the required work. No, it's not because the assignments are too hard. The last three "work products" I had to hand in were: 1. A one page reflection on a memory of bullying from childhood. 2. A fill-in-the-blank document that was identical to the provided power point (fill in the blank in RED so the prof knows you didn't just copy and paste the whole thing at the same time.) 3. Create a Venn diagram (that's the two overlapping circles) to display the activities typical and disabled children can do in a drama class.
I guess this alone will filter out some people. Everyone else will be required to waste their time on bullshit that is either irrelevant or could have been learned a lot faster.
"So they're not studying more than everyone else because they just naturally love fire fighting, but because they have someone to show them the ropes and tell them what they need to do."
First of all, do you even have a source for that claim?
Secondly,
Because that helps them so much on a written test. Sorry, but that reads like the "upper class black kids do worse on standardized tests than lower-class white kids because their parents didn't read to them as kids" trope.
"It all depends how much you value a level playing field vs how much you value strong family ties, and whether that unconnected Ukranian is appreciably better than the Irish nephew he's beating out."
Because in dangerous occupations, it pays for the practicioners to not know each other from Adam. I'm going to say that if the firefighters work better together because they're relatives, and I'm stuck in a burning building and need to be rescued, I'm willing to sacrifice a "level playing field" for "not dying".
Of course, the real question is, Laura, why do you hate lower-income Italians and Irishmen so much?
Aren't blacks overrepresented in postal and bus-driver jobs. Good benefits.
"This over-reliance on academic credentials is undervaluing things like experience and natural talents. Book-learning is fine for people like certified public accountants, but I'm not sure I'd want firemen coming to my house that had merely trained at some school to fight fires, and had no calling for it."
We aint saying firemen should write a thesis on Joyce's Ulysses or master calculus.
But modern firefighting require a lot of skill. It's like the engineering of destructiveness. There are procedures on what to do first, how to save lives, how to minimize the spread of fires, what do about smoke, how to approach and attack a burning house, etc.
There's a lot of theory. And there is also after-the-fire investigation, which requires detective-like skills.
Ever see THE TOWERING INFERNO? That was a very complex operation.
Everything in NYC is done via cliques. See the story below about the Indian clique on Wall Street. You get ahead by being part of one or more well-connected groups. ("Well connected" depending on the field you are trying to get ahead in)
Sometimes people are part of two or more cliques - a Jewish Scientologist and gay, for example. A lot of doors open that way.
There are few places in the world which are less of a meritocracy than NYC. This business of the blacks trying to take a bigger share of city jobs via judicial fiat is a good example of the way the entire city runs, from the richest to the porest. It's also a good example of the way the Democrats would like to see all of America operate.
Fire fighting is really about life and death. And I'm sure there's a good deal of lawsuits too. So, we want the very best.
Firemen must go after a burning house like an emergency surgeon must go after wounds.
We don't want mediocre firemen. I know rich liberals don't wanna go under the knife of mediocre surgeons.
"It all depends how much you value a level playing field vs how much you value strong family ties, and whether that unconnected Ukranian is appreciably better than the Irish nephew he's beating out."
No part of America or the world has a "level playing field" in the sense you mean it. Nepotism and cronyism are rife in all spheres of life - why are NYC firefighters supposed to be the one exception to this?
And of course you're not even arguing for a true level playing field - the alternative to the current NYC fire dept is one where judges (themselves selected based on cronyism and nepotism) award firefighter places based on race.
Laura said...
This "us white guy" rhethoric obscures what's really going on. These are not just any white guys, they're the sons and nephews of current firefighters. So they're not studying more than everyone else because they just naturally love fire fighting, but because they have someone to show them the ropes and tell them what they need to do. Moving the process out to JuCo makes it more transparent and "fairer"; now nephews of firefighters will have to pay a college professor to show them the ropes, just like everyone else.
Even if increasing transparency doesn't change the racial balance, I bet it will change which white guys you end up with. Instead of a bunch of Irish and Italian guys, you'll get more Ukranians and English guys and Irish guys whose relatives don't happen to be firemen.
Of course having to pay colleges will be hugely more expensive than getting free pointers from your relatives, so the increased transparency may not be worth it. It all depends how much you value a level playing field vs how much you value strong family ties, and whether that unconnected Ukranian is appreciably better than the Irish nephew he's beating out. But at any rate there's more going on than just a pure waste of time.
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Why don't we level the playing field for jobs at Hollywood movie studios and the news media? Those jobs are a lot more important than firefighting.
Steve, you've written a lot about hiring practices in firefighting, but I've never heard you mention anything about the increasing prevalence of firefighter/paramedics. I think that this is a trend which will make the whole AA debate moot in the end. In my region you almost have to be a EMT-P/paramedic, if you want to be hired as a firefighter. Even firefighters with only an EMT-B credential are very rare. Municipalities like to make these hiring requirements because it allows them to fill 2 jobs with 1 person. If it's not a trend that's spreading in other regions, then I suspect that it soon will be.
The EMT-P credential requires an associate's degree and emt-b and the levels above that require class time and clinicals in addition to a state licensing exam and skills test. The commitment in time in terms of studying, clinicals, ambulance rides, classwork as well as the money and effort needed to get through a 2 year paramedic program are not insignificant. If any incompetents should make it through, they are not likely to maim or kill too many people before losing their licenses as well as any future employment opportunities in EMS/ firefighting.
On the whole, I see this as a positive development. There is a possibility that it might break up ethnic cohesion among departments that have traditionally been served by a particular group, but I think that this outweighed by the check it places on hiree quality/nepotism/AA. Further, the daily stresses of risking your life to fight fires and treating the critically injured tends to have a bonding effect upon people, crossing even the icy, ethnic animosities that separate, for example, 5th generation Slovak Americans from 6th generation Irish Americans, amongst other groups.
You can read a SF paramedic/firefighter's take on how the EMS field effects hiring realities here.
"Because in dangerous occupations, it pays for the practicioners to not know each other from Adam. I'm going to say that if the firefighters work better together because they're relatives, and I'm stuck in a burning building and need to be rescued, I'm willing to sacrifice a "level playing field" for "not dying"."
Do members of a given family typically serve with one another, or are they scattered all over town at whatever firehouse had an opening when they passed the test?
"And of course you're not even arguing for a true level playing field - the alternative to the current NYC fire dept is one where judges (themselves selected based on cronyism and nepotism) award firefighter places based on race."
I'm not really arguing for anything, I'm just pointing out that there's more going on here than just blacks vs whites. Even if the force is still all white after they make everyone go to JuCo, it doesn't imply that the whole thing was a money wasting Kabuki dance that changed nothing. Lots of things can change without changing the percentages of blacks and whites hired.
@Anon 6:02pm.. You're absolutely right. The mid-size FL city that I work for (not as a firefighter) requires an EMT certificate as a minimum and prefers the Paramedic license. 98% of calls are medical-related. Since structure fires have become more & more rare, fire departments had to look for something else to do; so they got into the medical first-responder/transport business and put private ambulance companies out of business.
As I understand, the EMT is easy to get; something like an 8-week part-time course. While the Paramedic is a demading 2-year classroom & clinical program. This is now standard in all FL cities. Though nepotism and affirmative action are heavy factors in the hiring process.
It's funny, all non-management FFs hired before 1990 simply have just a high school diploma. All hired since have the EMT or paramedic.
To become a LT, Battalion Chief, Asst Chief, they need a BS degree. Always it's gotten on the job, paid for by the City, at the local diploma mill in "Fire Science." Fire Chief jobs attract candidates nationwide and require very good management, leadership, and political skills.
In my city, the FFs work 24 hours on, 48 hours off. Starting pay is $35K per year. Overtime seldom cracks $15K. Start at 200 hours vacation leave + 200 hours sick leave per year. Traditional defined benefit pension plan. A FF can retire with full pension (at any age) with 25 years of service. That's 87% of the average of the three highest years of wages; or about $50K per year for life + 3% annual COLA.
A major cost to requiring further and further credentialing: it kills normal family life.
Wasn't credentialism how progressive "reformers" destroyed old city party machines that awarded positions based on ethnic ties or political patronage?
Fire and police departments are hold-outs of that previous era. What are good books to read about the rise of credentialism in city politics?
And obviously, credentialism is still a patronage network under a different name.
Just watched a commercial on HLN for first responder training from Capella University. It wasn't a joke. But it didn't say whether it was a bachelor's program or short duration credentialing course.
@SF 10/29: Yes, Capella, Everest, and the other diploma mills also offer "degrees" and "certificates" in Homeland Security, Crime Scene Investigation, and the like, suggesting that their grads are going to become FBI Agents and CIA Officers.
By the way, a couple of years ago, Everest was sued by the State of FL for deceptive sales practices. At that time, the school was known as Florida Metropolitan University (a play on a real school's name - Florida Memorial University). The diploma mill got some bad press and paid a small fine; then changed its name to Everest.
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