A commenter at Slate attempts to explain to Matthew Yglesias the answer to that journalist's question "Why does the census count me as Hispanic?"
Latinos/Hispanics are individuals whose descent comes from Latin American countries and Puerto Rico (an American Territory). The white ones, who are the descendants mostly of Spaniards, but also of other Europeans who emigrated to Latin America and Puerto Rico are not considered white by most Americans and are therefore discriminated against by the Anglo (non Hispanic white) majority.
The problem, then, is the all encompassing, prevalent, institutional, personal racism of the Anglo (non Latino white) majority.
Right. That's what caused the tragic lynching of Desi Arnaz in 1951 during the attempted filming of the first episode of the never-aired "I Love Lucy" series. As fans of Noel Ignatiev no doubt recall, a mob of furious whites in the studio audience, enraged at Arnaz laying his Spanish Cuban hands on the fair Lucille Ball, spontaneously tore the bandleader limb from limb. Historians sometimes speculate that if it weren't for the virulent white prejudice against Spanish Cubans miscegenating with whites, "I Love Lucy" might even have become something of a hit.
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162 comments:
Poor Mitt Romney - just think what he might achieve if not for the fact that his "descent comes from a Latin American country".
It's clear to me that the opposition of Democrats to Mr Romney is based on anti-Hispanic discrimination.
That Slate commenter is overdoing things, presumably to score political points. To the extent that white-appearing Hispanics are treated as "different" it's by their own choice. Even more clearly mestizo Hispanics can assimilate fairly well if they choose. As I noted at Slate, the One Drop Rule does not apply with respect to Hispanic ancestry.
Let's not forget how Rita Hayworth was denied leading roles in films for being a non-white spanaird.
Lucille Ball was part Irish-so she wasn't really white.
@ steve - also in Santa Barbara the old spanish ranching famlies (non-metizo )married into new england shipping families (Santa Barbara's was mostly accessed by water until the freeway was built) - thus names like 'Guiterez-Pettigrew' and such...
There was a riot against Greeks in Omaha in 1909 after a Greek man was accused of having relations with a local woman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Omaha,_Nebraska#Riot
"A Greek immigrant was arrested for loitering after being accused of having sex with a white woman in February, 1909. During the arrest, a police officer was shot. The accused man was captured later. On February 21, a mob of 3,000 men and boys gathered outside the South Omaha jail where he was being held. Police distracted the crowd while the prisoner was moved to the Omaha City Jail, but after discovering this, the mob attacked Greektown, a local ethnic enclave. They forced Greek residents to abandon the area, destroyed businesses, and completely demolished 30 buildings.[7][8]"
1909 was really a completely different world from the 50s though. It was much more parochial and local. It was before radio, TV, the Great Depression, large federal government, WWII - all of which helped construct a broader mass society that assimilated the more recent white immigrant groups and established a more uniform conscioiusness.
"Anonymous said...
Let's not forget how Rita Hayworth was denied leading roles in films for being a non-white spanaird."
Or Raquel Welch. Don't forget her!
"The problem, then, is the all encompassing, prevalent, institutional, personal racism of the [Jewish minority]."
Sounds great to have the said of yourself and your ethnic group, don't it? To say "your group is full of racist bigots" is itself to make a bigoted stereotype, accusing an entire group of people of being bigots.
The suppsedly "all-encompassing," "personal racism of the Anglo majority" has allowed this country to go from 4% Hispanic to 15% Hispanic in the space of two generations. For the vast majority of voters, illegal immigration ain't even a major voting issue.
In her autobiography as told to Alex Haley, Ball reflected on how her red hair was the only thing that didn't remind her of her tragic ancestry acquired via some long ago Anglo rapist
Reminds one of how David Farragut, who almost became the first admiral in the US Navy, was drummed out of the service when they discovered that his father was a Spaniard.
My parents were born in Uruguay. I was born in the US. I consider myself white since all of my ancestry is derived from Europe.
No one has ever told me I look Hispanic.
I am unaware of ever being discriminated against due to the origin of my parents.
The Slate commenter sounds like he's just spitting out leftist garbage.
And General Del Valle, the Forgotten Hispanic Activist.
The George Schuyler of Hispanics
What's funny is that the vast majority of slaves brought to the US were by the Spaniards, as were the vast majority of virulent diseases, devastation and looting and complete domination of the natives, and their descendents, the modern hispanics receive benefits as victims of US Anglos who historically had very little involvement with these people. Gotta love the loopy logic of the lefties!
Well, don't forget that Hispanics weren't invented until the Nixon Administration, so ol' Desi made it in under the wire.
BTW, when I used to watch the all those reruns years ago on TV, I always assumed he was about 1/4 non-white based on his features, but maybe I was mistaken.
A moving speech (clip) by Desi Arnaz. I believe I have seen a longer version on TV but this is all I can find on YT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZkpVZUZ7Hk
My experience as a mixed race individual with my mid-Atlantic WASP Ivy in-laws is that:
* Non-white ethnicities are generally perceived favorably
* Non-elite white ethnicity is forgettable
* The most common and valued non-WASP ethnicities are Jewish and successful NE Asians
* Hispanic-influenced culture (eg Catholicism) is considered low- to middle-brow and at best politely ignored
The British/WASPS are winners and have written the history of their former enemies by blackening the reputation of the Spanish, Dutch, French, Germans and Russians with outright propaganda when it suited them.
The current anti-Hispanic bias of WASPS and US elites in general is largely cultural rather than racial.
There is a serious cultural divide between Latin and Anglo-Germanic worlds. Abroad I've seen Brazilian Japanese, white Spanards and meztico Mexicans socialize far better with each other than with their co-ethnics from foreign countries. It's not irrational that Hispanics be as much, if not more, of a cultural than a racial group.
Catholic Hispanics (of whatever ethnicity) are one of the most underrepresented demographics in any field of power and prestige in the US - they are perhaps the most underrepresented.
Even though you're gathering great material for a new book ("How The Whites Became La Raza") I think this phenomenon goes back beyond the ethnicity accountants. Like Liz Warren my grandparents and their siblings in St. Louis all enjoyed to claim descent from the local noble savage franchise, even though my forebears on that side were a generation or two removed from German immigrants. Unlike Warren they realized no material gain from this ruse but I think it's a universal tendency, except most of the time people elsewhere will try to claim a high-class ethnic antecedent like Pocahontas or Xhosa royalty or whatever.
The people we have to worry about are the Swedes....he, she, hen? WTF
Votebanking and squeaky wheels have so beggared the culture that I have no doubt Romney or his surrogates will show the "victimized Mormon" card before Nov.
"There is a serious cultural divide between Latin and Anglo-Germanic worlds."
Belgium is aprime example of this, the germanic Flemish have little in commmon with the latin Wallons.
"Catholic Hispanics (of whatever ethnicity) are one of the most underrepresented demographics in any field of power and prestige in the US - they are perhaps the most underrepresented."
Catholic culture is one of socialism and stagnation, be in Latin-America (Brazil, Mexico, Venezuela,..) or Europe (Portugal, Italy, Spain and evem France..)
The USA elites are predominantly Jewish and Protestant for obvious reasons.
"Anonymous Anonymous said...
Let's not forget how Rita Hayworth was denied leading roles in films for being a non-white spanaird."
It was also a shame how racism ruined the promising careers of Caesar Romero, Fernando Lamas, and Ricardo Montalban, all of whom ended up as homeless derelicts on the sunset strip.
Unlike Warren they realized no material gain from this ruse but I think it's a universal tendency, except most of the time people elsewhere will try to claim a high-class ethnic antecedent like Pocahontas or Xhosa royalty or whatever.
But it is not a ruse. Amerindians exist and existed, many had children with Europeans, and many of their descendents inhabit the United States today.
The British/WASPS are winners and have written the history of their former enemies by blackening the reputation of the Spanish, Dutch, French, Germans and Russians with outright propaganda when it suited them.
Jews have written the history we read today, which is why you are referring to people of English descent as "WASPs."
Catholic culture is one of socialism and stagnation, be in Latin-America (Brazil, Mexico, Venezuela,..) or Europe (Portugal, Italy, Spain and evem France..)
So it's Catholicism that causes stagnation and socialism?
Your list conveniently left off the Catholic countries of Germany (30% Catholic, 29.9% Protestant), the Netherlands (28% Catholic, 16% Protestant) and Luxembourg (87% Catholic) who have arguably the top economies in Europe by different metrics.
You also left off other majority Catholic hell holes like Canada (46% Catholic, 35% Protestant) and Australia (26% vs 19% Anglican).
Finally, you left off Protestant paradises of Namibia (68%) and Papua New Guinea (62%).
You've certainly proven Catholicism dooms a nation to failure.
"Catholic Hispanics (of whatever ethnicity) are one of the most underrepresented demographics in any field of power and prestige in the US - they are perhaps the most underrepresented."
Probably true.
Non-jews from eastern europe are also under-represented.
All white-ethnics are under-represented with the glaring exception of jews.
Catholic culture is one of socialism and stagnation, be in Latin-America (Brazil, Mexico, Venezuela,..) or Europe (Portugal, Italy, Spain and evem France..)
What about Germany?
Who has ever heard of motor works in Bavaria?
I remember reading a biography of Billy the Kid. While discussing the trial of a murder committed during the Lincoln County War, the book listed the names of the jurors. Half of them were Spanish. The defendent was an Anglo. Not exactly Jim Crow.
"Catholic culture is one of socialism and stagnation"
In my various travels, I remember once coming across a howling wasteland, called "Austria" by the natives. As I looked round the decay of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, I though to myself, "Just walk away." Which I did.
Catholic culture is one of socialism and stagnation
"Stagnant" is not the first word that comes to mind when one reflects on French and Italian culture.
"which is why you are referring to people of English descent as 'WASPs.'"
He may not have coined it, but you can thank Rabbi Professor E. Digby Baltzell for popularizing it. He was a WASP and was not offended by the its use.
OT: Over at Evo and Proud, there's a comment:
http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2012/05/greek-debt-crisis-part-1.html?showComment=1337441792373#c8402461994183592252
From Ha-Joon Chang's book, "23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism":
“Wages in rich countries are determined more by immigration control than anything else, including any minimum wage legislation. How is the immigration maximum determined? Not by the ‘free’ labour market, which, if left alone, will end up replacing 80-90 per cent of native workers with cheaper, and often more productive, immigrants. Immigration is largely settled by politics. So, if you have any residual doubt about the massive role that the government plays in the economy’s free market, then pause to reflect that all our wages are, at root, politically determined.”
No se olvide de Xavier Cougat -- Spanish, Catalan, Cuban, Latino, pre-hipster Brooklynite!
There is a persistant rumor that Walt Disney was not Anglo-Saxon at all, but of southern Spanish stock, having invented some sort of elaborate cover story to claim descent from a mid-western Anglo-Saxon family.
I'm pretty sure that the story is true. Lookng at a photo of Disney it is obvious that he looks far more Spanish than he does English.
Why he choose his elaborate charade I do not know, but I do remember a TV travel show featuring a Spanish village that claims to be Walt Disney's ancestral home.
Disney looked like Manuel on "Fawlty Towers" (who was played by a Scotsman, but still ...).
Oddly enough, I'd never heard this rumor before, but looking at his pictures, Disney certainly looks like he could be a Spaniard. Or maybe he just thought Spaniards looked cool and tried to look like one -- I mean, the guy was pretty good at getting impressions across visually.
Walt Disney had to hide his Irish and Jewish ancestry in order to avoid being discriminated against by, respectively, American commoners and Hollywood.
He may not have coined it, but you can thank Professor E. Digby Baltzell for popularizing it. He was a WASP and was not offended by the its use.
The Culture of Critique popularizes and propagates the WASP epithet. Some people of of English descent may employ it--mindlessly--just as many European-derived peoples vote for people in the United States who pursue policies designed to harm and destroy them.
How is the immigration maximum determined? Not by the ‘free’ labour market, which, if left alone, will end up replacing 80-90 per cent of native workers with cheaper, and often more productive, immigrants.
Wow.
It's like how Santayana couldn't get a job at Harvard because he was a Spaniard.
E. Digby Baltzell, coiner of the term "WASP," was filmmaker Whit Stillman's godfather.
E. Digby Baltzell, coiner of the term "WASP," was filmmaker Whit Stillman's godfather.
Not according to Wikipedia, Steve.
It is interesting that the term seems to have appeared post-WWII, in the 1950s and 60s, as the Frankfurt School and New York Intellectuals were beginning to really dominate academia and the public discourse.
There are several interesting tidbits in the Wikipedia article.
Manuel on "Fawlty Towers" was played by a German actor.
Counter thought said...
The current anti-Hispanic bias of WASPS and US elites in general is largely cultural rather than racial.
It's not cultural or racial. It's also non existent.
I think the term WASP may have been coined by the radical Jewish bigot Andrew Hacker. A man who makes Mr Peepers look like Conan the Barbarian.
Hacker should be exhibit A in Kevin MacDonald's portrayal of the vindictive Jew out to get the goyim.
"Disney looked like Manuel on "Fawlty Towers" (who was played by a Scotsman, but still ...)."
Que?
From Wiki:
"Andrew Sachs (born Andreas Siegfried Sachs, 7 April 1930) is a German-born British actor. He ... is best known for his portrayals of Manuel in Fawlty Towers,"
At the time of the recent Russell Brand Prank Phone Call Crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgina_Baillie
much was made of his Jewish ancestry
As a 100% European father married to a spicy Latina, I was shocked to discover that I am required to discriminate against my own children. But if that's what white privilege demands of me, then so be it.
Here are three great clips of Louis CK and the late Patrice O Neal talking about race, "whiteness" and Mexicans:
Opie & Anthony Patrice Does Not Want Louie CK Claiming Whiteness
Opie & Anthony: Louis CK Is Mexican
Opie & Anthony: Louis CK Explains...His Origin
Lookng at a photo of Disney it is obvious that he looks far more Spanish than he does English.
there are numerous articles online about how the British are descended from the spanish.. not to mention..is not purely nordic - the welsh for example, can look short and dark, 'swarthy'.
There should be some kind of affirmative action function on every calculator.
For every four (4) poor Oaxacan peasants sneaking over the border, white people must send at least one (1) of the Desi Arnaz Brown-Skinned Talented Tenth to college.
This maintains the 1:4 college attendance ratio that white folks have.
Xochitl Hinojosa never, ever, ever, has to see, touch, feel, or smell these little brown MS-13 people,
She and her kin avoid them like the plague. But their very presence in the USA guarantees brownaffirmative action slots in the colleg and workplace hierarchy.
WASP? Has anyone heard of the Norman invasion? It happened in 1066.
And, of course, we all recall how Luis Alvarez had to drop out of the University of Chicago due to the prejudice that he encountered.Same thing happened to James Jesus Angleton at Yale, as well;the bigoted comments about his Mexican mother just drove the poor man out of the university....Such a shame.In a different world they both might have accomplished something.
Steve Sailer said...
"Disney looked like Manuel on "Fawlty Towers" (who was played by a Scotsman, but still ...)."
Eh? Manuel was played by Andrew Sachs who is Scots-Iri.... I see what you did there. Very dry Steve.
Lucille Ball was part Irish-so she wasn't really white.
Indeed, perhaps she considered running the NAACP to make up for her blighted entertainment career?
Or Raquel Welch. Don't forget her!
And think how different Tom Cruise's career or Martin Sheen's might have been had they been regarded as white.
According to Wikipedia, Walt Disney's father was of Irish descent and his mother was of German and English background. His Spanish appearance could come mainly from his Irish side.
I only heard the rumour that he might be Spanish from commenters on a Daily Mail article.
Steve said - Disney looked like Manuel on "Fawlty Towers" (who was played by a Scotsman, but still ...)
Steve, I hope you meant "played by a Scots-Irish man".
Andrew Sachs
'Manuel' was played by the veteran British actor Andrew Sachs who is of Askenazi Jewish origin (hence surname). Like many Askenazi (eg Paul Simon), he has a distinct generalized 'mediterranean' look about him.
You also left off other majority Catholic hell holes like Canada (46% Catholic, 35% Protestant) and Australia (26% vs 19% Anglican).
I don't think you know what "majority" means.
Of course, the whole idea of the 'American' identity was created by the original Anglo-Saxon founding stock of the USA in revolutionary times to dsitinguish themselves from their fellow Anglo-Saxons in Britain (but, note, they still jealosusly clung on to the 'blood and soil' identity of Anglo-Saxon to describe their heritage and ethnicity)and to stake their claim as new independent nation on a new territory - in other words it was a clear and distinctive breakaway in nationality and not ethnicity.
In those days the only other 'rival races' to deal with on American soil were the indigenous Amerindians - always but always desribed simply as 'Indians' and nothing else and imported black slaves. Hence it wa fairly easy to use the racial terms 'black' and 'white' to describe this fairly simple state of affairs.
Nowadays things are compounded. Not only are European ancesrty (never mind Anglo-Saxons) Americans heading rapidly for minority status, we have professional Marxist word-players inventing all sorts of false histories and etymologies, playing word games etc and untold millions of sub-con Indians, Arabs, mestizos etc calling themselves 'white' (although they would never have been recognised as such by the original colonists.
Things have turned full circle and Euroopean ancestored Americans should ditch the 18th century defiant title of 'American', and pay homage to their native land and call themselves 'Europeans'.
Both the terms 'white' and 'American' have been ruined beyond repair.
Uh oh! Part XII: The wannabe cop didn't have much respect for (white) cops!
"It was also a shame how racism ruined the promising careers of Caesar Romero, Fernando Lamas, and Ricardo Montalban, all of whom ended up as homeless derelicts on the sunset strip."
For Christsakes, this is another silly thread. Lomas, Montalban et al. got work, but they did not work like Cary Grant or Clark Gable; why? Brock Peters got work, Sidney Portier, is more famous than any of the mentioned three, does that mean that white people in Danbury, CT wanted them marrying into the family?
Jews have written the history we read today, which is why you are referring to people of English descent as "WASPs."
Approximately 3,446 blacks were lynched in America between 1862-1968. Oliver Cromwell and his East Anglian supporters killed many times more Scots, Irish, and fellow Englishmen in a much shorter time period, and that an enmity carried over to the States (For an excellent account read The Cousins' Wars: Religion, Politics, Civil Warfare, And The Triumph Of Anglo-America by Kevin Phillips.) At the same time, Cromwell induced Jews back into England, especially wealthy Dutch Jews. So Jews are more likely to be sympathetic to the "WASP" than any other ethnic group, including the British cousins of the "WASP." I find it a complex and interesting subject; to reflexively blame the Jews does it a disservice.
Or how Capablanca was never given a chance to play for the world chess championship.
"A Greek immigrant was arrested for loitering after being accused of having sex with a white woman in February, 1909."
Wikipedia implies that Greeks weren't considered white, but I'd like to see the original source. It's quite possible the good people of Omaha saw the issue as a dirty, no-good (but white, if cleaned up) immigrant seducing a virtuous native-born American maiden. It's also possible that the man was genuinely of bad character and the anti-Greek angle is bogus.
Cennbeorc
On second reading, the anti-Greek interpretation seems, uh, plausible.
Cennbeorc
Your list conveniently left off the Catholic countries of Germany (30% Catholic, 29.9% Protestant), the Netherlands (28% Catholic, 16% Protestant) and Luxembourg (87% Catholic) who have arguably the top economies in Europe by different metrics.
You also left off other majority Catholic hell holes like Canada (46% Catholic, 35% Protestant) and Australia (26% vs 19% Anglican).
These are the exceptions that prove the rule. Germany and the Netherlands have Catholic pluralities only because the Protestant churches have declined so much. Historically, the Netherlands were a Protestant nation, while the economically dynamic parts of Germany were in the Protestant north. In south Germany, the traditional industrial centre was around Stuttgart, a Protestant enclave.
Mind you, that's the historical pattern. More recently, the traditionally Catholic areas seem to have shaken off their sleepiness and the old Protestant industrial regions have become a bit of rustbelt. This is true of Flanders vs Wallonia in Belgium as well as Germany.
Canada, too, is a Protestant-dominated nation once you subtract Quebec (Catholic and economically stagnant).
Cennbeorc
Cuban-Irish actor Mel Ferrer never got a fair shake in Hollywood.
Spanish-Irish actor Ramon Estevez was forced to change his name due to racist attitudes. As he explains: "Whenever I would call for an appointment, whether it was a job or an apartment, and I would give my name, there was always that hesitation and when I'd get there, it was always gone. So I thought, I got enough problems trying to get an acting job, so I invented Martin Sheen."
not to mention the persecution of Charlie Sheen
Seems the rumors about Walt Disney being a waif who was born in Spain go way back (and are irrelevant to the issue at hand, since pretty much nobody thought of him that way). Here's a refutation by an aged mouseketeer. Whether or not one chooses to believe the refutation, it has citations showing that the rumors go back decades. For the inveterate mouse birthers, here's a recent Guardian story based on the same allegations.
Baltzell, a non-Jew, wrote about "WASPs" in the 1960's. Before his work, use of the acronym "WASP" was almost entirely confined to academic sociologists whose articles and books no ordinary person would ever read (or want to read, for that matter). Some things cannot entirely be blamed on Jews, but that won't stop the Jew-haters here from trying.
>the book listed the names of the jurors. Half of them were Spanish. The defendent was an Anglo. Not exactly Jim Crow.<
I wonder if that book is still available or if the flat-earthers have Fahrenheit 451'ed it.
I had a college roommate whose last name ended in -ski. He had dark features. He was from New Jersey so I figured he was part italian. I'd known him for six months before I found out he was half polish, half cuban.
Ha-Joon Chang is correct. Can't see how any economist from socialists to Austrians could disagree with that excerpt as a factual statement. (Though value judgments would vary.)
Meanwhile, in the WASP homeland, England, lower income WASPs are doing worse in school than black, brown and yellow immigrants...
BTW, isn't the English upper class descended from the french Normans?
White victimization is alive and well.
Whose fault is it that the people known as WASPs never came up with their own ethnic self-name? And no, "American" doesn't cut it.
As for their attitudes to people from other cultures, the WASPs had been too successful in the past few centuries to develop real hatreds for foreigners. That would require a catastrophic military defeat, a bunch of massacres, and perhaps an occupation. (A real occupation, not coming the country to mow your lawn.)
"Cuban-Irish actor Mel Ferrer never got a fair shake in Hollywood."
Yeah, he was so discriminated against that he had to console himself by being married to Audrey Hepburn.
As for their attitudes to people from other cultures, the WASPs had been too successful in the past few centuries to develop real hatreds for foreigners. That would require a catastrophic military defeat, a bunch of massacres, and perhaps an occupation. (A real occupation, not coming the country to mow your lawn.)
Like the Norman Invasion from France that made the Saxons the lower class in England?
Whose fault is it that the people known as WASPs never came up with their own ethnic self-name? And no, "American" doesn't cut it.
De Tocqueville called us "Anglo-Americans."
Martin Sheen's son Emilio had to change his last name back to Estevez because Emilio Sheen sounds like a Mexican hair care product.
Jose Ferrer was so discriminated against for being Puerto Rican that he had to console himself with his Best Actor Oscar and Tony awards and his five marriages, including two to George Clooney's aunt. from wikipedia:
Ferrer was married five times:
Uta Hagen (1938-1948): Ferrer and Hagen had one child, their daughter Leticia (born June 16, 1939). They divorced in 1948, partly due to Hagen's long-concealed affair with Paul Robeson, with whom Hagen and Ferrer had co-starred in the Broadway production of Othello.
Phyllis Hill (1948-1953): Ferrer and Hill wed on May 27, 1948, and they moved to Burlington, Vermont in 1950, where they subsequently found it difficult to keep their marriage together. Jose returned to Puerto Rico because his mother died. He soon returned to Vermont smoking heavily. They divorced on January 12, 1953.
Rosemary Clooney (1953-1961): Ferrer first married Clooney on June 1, 1953 in Durant, Oklahoma.[6] They moved to Santa Monica, California in 1954, and then to Los Angeles in 1958. Ferrer and Clooney had five children: Miguel (born February 7, 1955), Maria (born May 29, 1956), Gabriel (born December 1, 1957), Monsita (born October 13, 1958) and Rafael (born March 23, 1960). They divorced for the first time in 1961.
Rosemary Clooney (1964-1967): Ferrer and Clooney remarried on November 22, 1964 in Los Angeles; however, the marriage again crumbled while Ferrer was carrying on an affair with his bride-to-be Stella Magee. She found out about the affair, and they divorced for the last time in 1967.
Stella Magee (1977-1992): Ferrer married Magee in 1977, and they remained married until his death.
Whose fault is it that the people known as WASPs never came up with their own ethnic self-name? And no, "American" doesn't cut it.
The term itself defeats this stupid argument: White - all Anglo-Saxons are White. Anglo-Saxon - okay, no problem there. Protestant - Protestantism is the default religion of Anglo-Saxons, they're assumed to be Protestant unless stated otherwise.
So, we've got two superfluous letters crammed into the abbreviation to make it into the name of an annoying insect.
What, too fucking dumb to just say Anglo-Saxon?
As for their attitudes to people from other cultures, the WASPs had been too successful in the past few centuries to develop real hatreds for foreigners. That would require a catastrophic military defeat, a bunch of massacres, and perhaps an occupation. (A real occupation, not coming the country to mow your lawn.)
I could buy that, if Jews weren't still whining about the Inquisition, medieval Poland, Longshanks, etc, despite being the world's most successful ethnic group.
(A real occupation, not coming the country to mow your lawn.)
Sorta like a real Holocaust, not a loving marriage?
The comments from the Slate clown are interesting in how revealing they are of the reptilian "if...then" idiocy that makes up so much of the diversicrat left's nonsense: "and are therefore discriminated against by the Anglo (non Hispanic white) majority."
"Therefore" properly used implies some sort of certainty. A=B and B=C therefore A=C. People not considered white are therefore discriminated against. QED.
De Tocqueville called us "Anglo-Americans."
Some of us say "American-Americans," though I think that should refer more to Britons, at the least.
"Remember poor Danny Thomas from the Levant?"
Remember how his daughter Marlo Thomas was kept off TV for all those years?
Remember how Casey Kasem was never allowed on Top 40 radio because he's an Arab?
Truth:'For Christsakes, this is another silly thread. Lomas, Montalban et al. got work, but they did not work like Cary Grant or Clark Gable; why? Brock Peters got work, Sidney Portier, is more famous than any of the mentioned three, does that mean that white people in Danbury, CT wanted them marrying into the family?"
RE: Clark Gable and Cary Grant: You might also add that Louis Jordan,Conrad Veidt, Maurice Chevalier, and Paul Henreid didn't have careers like Gable and Grant either. I suppose that they just suffered from racism too.
The difference between Poitier and Brock Peters vs Lamas, Montalban, Jose Ferrer,Cesar Romero, etc: This might elude you, Truth, but these Hispanic actors were all White. Hence, they were allowed to film love scenes with White actresses, something that the Hays Code would not allow non-Whites to do.
atoz:"Spanish-Irish actor Ramon Estevez was forced to change his name due to racist attitudes. As he explains: "Whenever I would call for an appointment, whether it was a job or an apartment, and I would give my name, there was always that hesitation and when I'd get there, it was always gone. So I thought, I got enough problems trying to get an acting job, so I invented Martin Sheen.""
Yeah, that obviously explains why Jacob Krantz changed his name to Ricardo Cortez; he wanted to experience more discrimination.
Actors changed their names all the time back in the 30s and 40s. Spanish surnamed actors were actually under less pressure than actors with German/Slavic/Jewish names.
So, all the white actors, politicians, and CEOs one sees around means that there is no anti-white affirmative action?
Whose fault is it that the people known as WASPs never came up with their own ethnic self-name? And no, "American" doesn't cut it.
Anglo-Saxons, Nordics, English, or Americans seemed to work just fine.
I think the term WASP may have been coined by the radical Jewish bigot Andrew Hacker.
Was Andrew Hacker indeed Jewish? Wikipedia states that he was the one who first put WASP in print, after it had been common currency at "sociology department cocktails."
Did the Scots Irish have any influence in sociology departments in the 1950s and 1960s?
Poster above - yes, the English upper classes are to a large extent the direct descendants of the Normans, who hated the native English from the start, dispossessed and persecuted them and hold them in contempt to this day. There is little on this earth more abhorrent to an upper-class English person than a working- or lower-class English person. So the ongoing demise of the white English working classes is not only of no concern to them - it is probably quite satisfying to them.
The relationship between the British and English identities has always been complex, but they are not the same thing. A fairly useful generalisation is that the upper classes (the Normans) identify themselves as British, while the working and middle classes are much more likely to identify themselves as English (and possibly British as well, but definitely English). This is increasingly true over the past twenty years.
So both the US and England have ethnically distinct power elites that are exceptionally hostile to the masses. Very few people in this country give any serious thought to who our upper classes are, where they came from and why they are here. They are just regarded as a fact of life, born to rule us in perpetuity.
As far as I know the English founders of the USA and subsequent migrants were all/almost all actual Englishmen. The Norman elites were comfortable in their palaces and country estates and understandably couldn't see the point in making the journey.
"Spanish surnamed actors were actually under less pressure than actors with German/Slavic/Jewish names."
William Henry Pratt changed his stage name to Boris Karloff.
Of course, the whole idea of the 'American' identity was created by the original Anglo-Saxon founding stock of the USA in revolutionary times to dsitinguish themselves from their fellow Anglo-Saxons in Britain (but, note, they still jealosusly clung on to the 'blood and soil' identity of Anglo-Saxon to describe their heritage and ethnicity)
Is this true? What is the evidence? Can you offer a citation for further reading?
we have professional Marxist word-players inventing all sorts of false histories and etymologies, playing word games etc
Can you provide examples?
Poster yesterday - the Walloons are not "Latin". They are a solidly Germanic/Celtic north-west European tribe. Their language, French, is one of the off-shoots of Latin, but all that proves is that they were just within the reach of the Roman Empire. I mean, Nigerians and Indians speak English...
In any case, whereas the southern dialects of French (principally Occitan) are heavily and obviously Latinate, Northern French is quite different - indeed until recent decades not easily mutually intelligible with Occitan. Celtic and Germanic influences are much stronger in the north.
At the same time, Cromwell induced Jews back into England, especially wealthy Dutch Jews. So Jews are more likely to be sympathetic to the "WASP" than any other ethnic group, including the British cousins of the "WASP."
You have failed to distinguish between people Jews should be sympathetic to with people (such as they exist) that Jews are sympathetic to.
Jews should also be sympathetic to Americans. Instead they relentlessly push to have Americans displaced in their own homeland and cry incessantly about how Americans are covertly bigoted and violent toward Jews.
Isn't Ha Joon Chang the same economist who wrote the book "Kicking away the Ladder"? This book is the definitive econometric destruction of the free trade-comparative advantage nonesense. But who needs econometricians anyway, workers all around the world already knew the obvious truth about free trade and the free migration of labor.
Noam Chomsky likes to quote Ha Joon Chang a lot in his newer books and talks. Chomsky used to quote Herman Daly a lot. But he stopped doing that when he discovered that Herman Daly was not an immigration enthusiast. In fact, Herman Daly wrote Chomsky and other leftists who believed that Daly was on their team that as soon as they can provide contrary evidence that immigration wasn't harmfull to American workers he would happily change his mind. So I suppose Noam Chomsky won't be quoting Ha Joon Chang anymore. But what the heck, he can always do what his buddy Alexander Cockburn has been doing for years:quote Steven Moore the corporate whore from the Cato Institute as an expert on US labor markets.
Since I mentioned Noam Chomsky, do you think he would support sending the Somalians to live among the Palestinians? How would the Palestians react? I think we all know the obvious answer to this question.
Oho! If Wikipedia is to be believed then Walt Disney is a Norman. Well well.
Baltzell, a non-Jew, wrote about "WASPs" in the 1960's. Before his work, use of the acronym "WASP" was almost entirely confined to academic sociologists whose articles and books no ordinary person would ever read (or want to read, for that matter)
Oh, wait ... Baltzell was also an academic sociologist.
One more post then I'll stop.
1) talk of a "Catholic culture" is dubious at best. It wasn't so long ago that all of western and central Europe was Catholic. It was the default setting. I do agree that the countries that decided to bin it - England, Scotland, Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Scandinavia - have been the leading European nations by most useful metrics over the past five centuries (at various times - England and Scotland certainly aren't any more).
France is a pretty irreligious place and Paris and the industrial north always have been. Secularity is something of a religion in its own right there. So while France has officially been Catholic for its whole history it's a bit of a special case.
Italians enjoy the theatre and mystery of Roman Catholicism, and the fact that it's "theirs" and that the Pope is a global superstar, but I'm doubtful that deep down they're much more religiously inclined than the French or the English. Austria and southern Germany are and always have been heavily Catholic, and I sense take it a bit more seriously than most, as is Poland, which I reckon to be the lost great large nation of Europe. Spain and Portugal have lost a lot of their religion in recent history but the Roman church still means quite a lot in Iberia. Similar story in Ireland. Very few young Irish people care about Catholicism any more and a lot of them actively hate the church on account of the treatment its priests and nuns inflicted on people for generations.
Basically, the whole question's a bit of a red herring. Ethnicity and fundamental group characteristics make religion and the degree of adherence to it a people has - not the other way round.
2) This whole meme of "obviously-white-ethnic-group-x didn't use to be considered white" has to be one of the biggest and most successful hoaxes of all time. If you're reading this, Noel Ignatiev, congratulations - looks like you pulled it off.
'The British/WASPS are winners and have written the history of their former enemies by blackening the reputation of the Spanish, Dutch, French, Germans and Russians with outright propaganda when it suited them."
Bwaaahaahaa
1) AS IF THOSE GROUPS HAVEN'T ALL DONE THE SAME
2) AS IF THOSE GROUPS HAVEN'T ALL EARNED A 'BLACK' REPUTATION ON OCCASION
There is some truth that Anglo Americans have tended to see Latin whites--especially ones with darker hues--as 'less whites' in the past.
And the success of Desi Arnez doesn't really say much. Louis Armstrong was also popular in the past, but that didn't mean anti-black sentiments and anti-black laws didn't exist. And Sidney Poitier was a big star in the 50s and 60s, but there were plenty of Archie Bunkers around--even in government. So, we shouldn't judge the real society by its pop culture.
Jack Johnson was boxing champion and had lots of white women in early 20th century, and he was lynched; so, does that mean there was no anti-black prejudice? Floyd Patterson was champion in the 50s and married to a white woman; does that mean white society was accepting of all blacks in the 50s?
But in more recent yrs, many white Hispanics have chosen to identify as 'non-white' for reasons of Latin nationalism/solidarity or affirmative action preference. Just as Anglo-American whites held a certain prejudice against Latinos--like Germans felt for Italians and as Northern Italians feel for Southern Italians--, Latin-American whites have tended to see North American whites as 'yanqui', 'gringo', 'imperialisto', and such. So, the prejudice went both ways.
There was an element of superiority and inferiority on both sides. Anglo-Americans felt superior for lighter skin, purer blood, bigger economy, better-run society. But they felt inferiority as lacking in color, flavor, salsa, style, romance, personality, etc.
Latin American envied and resented gringo power, wealth, might, and order, but they looked down on yanquis as 'blanco pan'. Latins felt superior in their style. It's like in Europe, Germany makes better machine tools, Italy makes better tools. German women have lighter skin but Italian women have more flavor.
But today, Latin whites choosing not to be 'white' has NOTHING to do with Anglo prejudice. Since white = 'racism', even white Hispanics would rather pass as non-white. So, if a Latin white is 95% white and 5% Indian or black, he will emphasize his 'mixed heritage'. Since race-mixing is to be the future of America, Latin whites wanna represent that future since Latin Americans are racially more mixed(even if particular white Hispanics are not all that mixed).
Similarly, very light skinned blacks may have wanted to 'pass' in the past, but today, even the lightest blacks choose to go with black label cuz there's more to be gained from 'black consciousness' and affirmative action than with being labeled as 'black'.
There is some truth that Anglo Americans have tended to see Latin whites--especially ones with darker hues--as 'less whites' in the past.
And the success of Desi Arnez doesn't really say much. Louis Armstrong was also popular in the past, but that didn't mean anti-black sentiments and anti-black laws didn't exist. And Sidney Poitier was a big star in the 50s and 60s, but there were plenty of Archie Bunkers around--even in government. So, we shouldn't judge the real society by its pop culture.
Jack Johnson was boxing champion and had lots of white women in early 20th century, and he was lynched; so, does that mean there was no anti-black prejudice? Floyd Patterson was champion in the 50s and married to a white woman; does that mean white society was accepting of all blacks in the 50s?
But in more recent yrs, many white Hispanics have chosen to identify as 'non-white' for reasons of Latin nationalism/solidarity or affirmative action preference. Just as Anglo-American whites held a certain prejudice against Latinos--like Germans felt for Italians and as Northern Italians feel for Southern Italians--, Latin-American whites have tended to see North American whites as 'yanqui', 'gringo', 'imperialisto', and such. So, the prejudice went both ways.
There was an element of superiority and inferiority on both sides. Anglo-Americans felt superior for lighter skin, purer blood, bigger economy, better-run society. But they felt inferiority as lacking in color, flavor, salsa, style, romance, personality, etc.
Latin American envied and resented gringo power, wealth, might, and order, but they looked down on yanquis as 'blanco pan'. Latins felt superior in their style. It's like in Europe, Germany makes better machine tools, Italy makes better tools. German women have lighter skin but Italian women have more flavor.
But today, Latin whites choosing not to be 'white' has NOTHING to do with Anglo prejudice. Since white = 'racism', even white Hispanics would rather pass as non-white. So, if a Latin white is 95% white and 5% Indian or black, he will emphasize his 'mixed heritage'. Since race-mixing is to be the future of America, Latin whites wanna represent that future since Latin Americans are racially more mixed(even if particular white Hispanics are not all that mixed).
Similarly, very light skinned blacks may have wanted to 'pass' in the past, but today, even the lightest blacks choose to go with black label cuz there's more to be gained from 'black consciousness' and affirmative action than with being labeled as 'black'.
"Jack Johnson was boxing champion and had lots of white women in early 20th century, and he was lynched"
I meant he was NOT lynched.
I meant Italians make better food.
"William Henry Pratt changed his stage name to Boris Karloff."
Who became famous as a horror movie actor. The Eastern European name worked for him because Eastern Europe carries greater connotations of exoticism and horror. Bluntly put, Karloff is scarier than Pratt.
'The British/WASPS are winners and have written the history of their former enemies by blackening the reputation of the Spanish, Dutch, French, Germans and Russians with outright propaganda when it suited them."
Bwaaahaahaa
1) AS IF THOSE GROUPS HAVEN'T ALL DONE THE SAME
2) AS IF THOSE GROUPS HAVEN'T ALL EARNED A 'BLACK' REPUTATION ON OCCASION
Moreover, the "winners" chose to name themselves an undesirable insect.
The biggest outrage is white Hispanics counting as non-white but Jews counting as whites. Since Jews are even more privileged than whites, they should count as a separate group and there should be AA for whites at the expense of Jews.
The lesson of this thread:
- give outsiders an inch and later the outsider children will take a mile...
- and eventually the outsider grandchildren will call you a bigot for not giving over everything to them...
Anonymous:"And the success of Desi Arnez doesn't really say much. Louis Armstrong was also popular in the past, but that didn't mean anti-black sentiments and anti-black laws didn't exist. And Sidney Poitier was a big star in the 50s and 60s, but there were plenty of Archie Bunkers around--even in government. So, we shouldn't judge the real society by its pop culture. "
Except that Desi Arnez's television career was built around his marriage to Lucille Ball;Poitier and Armstrong did not have careers that were built around marriages to white women.
"And the success of Desi Arnez doesn't really say much. Louis Armstrong was also popular in the past, but that didn't mean anti-black sentiments and anti-black laws didn't exist."
Yes, but Louis Armstrong didn't star in "I Love Marilyn," in which he played an Afro-American bandleader married to ditzy blonde Marilyn Monroe, who was Armstrong's wife in real life in 1951, in what would almost instantly become the most popular TV show of the 1950s.
Just to be clear: "I Love Marilyn" didn't happen. And it wouldn't have happened in 1951 no way, no how. The bottom line is that discrimination against blacks in American history was radically harsher than against anybody else, with the exception of American Indians, and the discrimination there was quite different, so it's hard to make an apples to apples comparison.
Everybody else wants to claim the glamor of black victimhood for their group, but it's extremely unfair to blacks.
What Yglesias doesn't mention is the Jewish factor, but then he's Jewish/Hispanic.
The reason why Hispanics--even very white ones--don't count as white is because Jews want it that way. If, as Sailer wishes, there was no longer to be a 'Hispanic' category for stuff like affirmative action, then many Hispanics(even brown ones)will eventually identify as white and side with whites on key issues. Why would the Jewish elite want white/Hispanic unity? Jewish strategy is divide-and-rule, and so it's to the advantage of Jews for all Hispanics--even very white ones, who tend to be the leaders of the 'Hispanic community'--to see white Americans with hostile/adversarial eyes. That way, Jews can play Hispanics against whites. Jews can play on Latin American anti-gringo prejudices.
But Yglesias the cunning Jewish-Hispanic would rather play the dirty Anti-Anglite card.
Btw, if Jews and Hispanics think Anglo-Americans are such rotten people, why did they come to the US? Why didn't they emigrate to wonderful nations ruled by 'people of color' such as Zimbabwe, China, Indonesia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc? Why come in such huge numbers to a nation ruled by 'racist' Anglos?
As I recall, Latin American nations were even hungrier for immigrants than the US in much of 19th and 20th centuries. Argentina and Brazil were open to European and even Asian immigrants. And many people went there, but why did most Jewish immigrants decide to come to 'evil racist' North America instead? Why not to the more mixed and 'inclusive' Latin America? And even today, if Jews feel US is still dominated by so much 'racism'(and therefore needs to be made more brown as redemption and punishment), why don't they all move to Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico, or Africa? Who's forcing Jews to stay here, a nation that is sooooo 'racist' that even to this day, white Hispanics are forced to be 'darkies'? And if Jews love nations where whites aren't majorities, why wait? They can have it instantly by moving to nations like Bolivia or Peru. I'm sure the mixed natives over there will be far less 'racist' and more welcoming of Jewish interests than the evil 'racist' Anglo-Americans ever were. Why live under evil gringos when you can live under wonderful Mexicanos?
"I Love Marilyn" didn't happen.
------------
That is true. But given the nature of black music, blacks were sensually making love to white women long before Arnez got into the act.
When blacks played jazz and white women fell all over for that stuff, there was some hanky panky going on.
And Elvis was essentially a kind of white negro. So, white society was both harsher toward blacks and more seduced by them.
And in a way, Arnez and the 'tall dark and handome' Latin lover was a sort of pale stand in for white fascination with blacks--just like swarthy Italian-American teen idols were safer and more acceptable version of black stars for white families. So, even though the cultural surface was friendlier to Hispanics in shows like I LOVE LUCY, the American cultural undercurrent was far more black-dominated and this was felt especially in the music world.
>>>>Anglo-Americans felt superior for lighter skin, purer blood, bigger economy, better-run society. But they felt inferiority as lacking in color, flavor, salsa, style, romance, personality, etc.<<<<
Except it isn't true in this hemisphere. Anglos do appreciate Latin American food. Anglos are ambivalent toward Latin American music, art, literature, theater/film, comedy, fashion, style etc.
Your inclusion of "romance, personality" in your list is just plain dumb. The Anglosphere worldwide needs no lessons in romance or personality from any other group.
Then there was Eamon de Valera, the half-Spanish, half-Irish president of Ireland for many years after independence.
oh, and by the way, whenever they want to rag yet again on the ill wind that brought European to the Americas, it's always the "white Spaniards" who did the worse things. That's the story.
Meanwhile, in the WASP homeland, England, lower income WASPs are doing worse in school than black, brown and yellow immigrants...
One of those misinterpretations thats been doing the rounds for a couple of years now.
The comparison was of poor white boys (those getting free school meals) compared to poor black boys (same criterion) they do about the same in school. A small less representative group compared with a larger more representative group.
1st generation African immigrant girls also do slightly better than this white male group.
And yes, so do some asian immigrants.
". The bottom line is that discrimination against blacks in American history was radically harsher than against anybody else, with the exception of American Indians..."
This is absolutely true, but the point is that the false tendency on this site is for people to assume that there was always some system in which all whites were created equal. That is just pure fantasy. Do you really believe that Ricardo Montalban or Dezi Arnaz would have been invited to Augusta Country Club as a member. Do you really believe that if these were normal guys (not celebrities) they would have been able to marry into upper crust WASP families.
This is pure fallacy.
"Do you really believe that if these were normal guys (not celebrities) they would have been able to marry into upper crust WASP families."
OH, PPPPTTTTT. *I* could never marry into upper crust WASP families and NOBODY would say I'm not White.
(Because the whole "upper crust" thing is about class, and status, dummy.)
Truth:"That is just pure fantasy. Do you really believe that Ricardo Montalban or Dezi Arnaz would have been invited to Augusta Country Club as a member. Do you really believe that if these were normal guys (not celebrities) they would have been able to marry into upper crust WASP families."
The trump card of ethnic grievance, denial of admittance to a posh country club...the horror, the horror. What atrocity could possible equal that?
William Henry Pratt changed his stage name to Boris Karloff.
This guy was actually mixed race, an Anglo-Indian. Millions of WASPs are part non-white: black, amerindian etc, who iare passing.
"For Christsakes, this is another silly thread. Lomas, Montalban et al. got work, but they did not work like Cary Grant or Clark Gable; why? Brock Peters got work, Sidney Portier, is more famous than any of the mentioned three, does that mean that white people in Danbury, CT wanted them marrying into the family?"
- I see you didn't read the title...
Londoner wrote:
yes, the English upper classes are to a large extent the direct descendants of the Normans, who hated the native English from the start, dispossessed and persecuted them and hold them in contempt to this day. There is little on this earth more abhorrent to an upper-class English person than a working- or lower-class English person. So the ongoing demise of the white English working classes is not only of no concern to them - it is probably quite satisfying to them. .............As far as I know the English founders of the USA and subsequent migrants were all/almost all actual Englishmen. The Norman elites were comfortable in their palaces and country estates and understandably couldn't see the point in making the journey.
Very interesting post Londoner.
The history books here neglect to mention that America was colonized by a despised underclass from England. Maybe the revolt against the British Monarchy had ethnic and class undertones as well?
By contrast Australia does not try to hide the fact that it was largely settled by convicts from the motherland.
Then there was Eamon de Valera, the half-Spanish, half-Irish president of Ireland for many years after independence.
In point of fact, Dev's Spanish father may very well never have existed at all. Historians and genealogists can find no trace of anyone answering to the name or description that Dev's mom gave. The conclusion is inescapable that Dev was illegitimate, and his father was any one of many Irish then resident in New York.
"Steve Sailer said...
Jose Ferrer was so discriminated against for being Puerto Rican that he had to console himself with his Best Actor Oscar and Tony awards and his five marriages, including two to George Clooney's aunt."
Jose Ferrer was a great actor. He was terriffic as Toulouse-Lautrec. And his brief role in "The Caine Mutiny" was the high-point of the movie.
"As far as I know the English founders of the USA and subsequent migrants were all/almost all actual Englishmen. The Norman elites were comfortable in their palaces and country estates and understandably couldn't see the point in making the journey."
A lot of the cavaliers who settled in Virginia had substantial Norman ancestry.
"Do you really believe that Ricardo Montalban or Dezi Arnaz would have been invited to Augusta Country Club as a member. "
Yes. Lots of the Southern elites have French and even Spanish ancestry, going back to the 1700s when those groups ran New Orleans.
"OH, PPPPTTTTT. *I* could never marry into upper crust WASP families and NOBODY would say I'm not White.
(Because the whole "upper crust" thing is about class, and status, dummy.)"
You claim to be a chick, Babe; if you were hot you could marry anywhere.
Anonymous said...
Truth:"That is just pure fantasy. Do you really believe that Ricardo Montalban or Dezi Arnaz would have been invited to Augusta Country Club as a member. Do you really believe that if these were normal guys (not celebrities) they would have been able to marry into upper crust WASP families."
The trump card of ethnic grievance, denial of admittance to a posh country club...the horror, the horror. What atrocity could possible equal that?
It is really not the country club they want into, that's just symbolic. What they want into is the White woman's vagina and uterus. Getting "into" the White woman is the Ultimate Prize.
And it's not just sexual and reproductive "conquest" of the White Man's woman, it's an Oedipal drive to get DADDY'S woman.
This is a little recognized feature of all so called "black rage".
Never underestimate the roll the White woman plays at the heart of black male and female psychology.
There's a reason black males and females are obsessed with Kim Kardassian, and it aint her butt.
Truth:"You claim to be a chick, Babe; if you were hot you could marry anywhere."
You need more exposure to your social betters, Truth. Breeding still counts for something when it comes to marriage.
"the English upper classes are to a large extent the direct descendants of the Normans"
In Gregory Clark's work in progress (http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic951425.files/Greg%20Clark%20Manuscript.pdf), he claims (by tracking surname frequencies in the general population and in the elite at Oxford) that by the early fifteenth century, the Norman upper class had largely (although not entirely) diffused into the general population. Although Norman surnames are still mildly overrepresented in the English elite, he argues that this is due to Anglo-Saxons switching to higher-status gains when they enter the elite.
Truth @ 5/24/12 5:33 PM.
"The bottom line is that discrimination against blacks in American history was radically harsher than against anybody else, with the exception of American Indians..."
This is absolutely true, but the point is that the false tendency on this site is for people to assume that there was always some system in which all whites were created equal. That is just pure fantasy. Do you really believe that Ricardo Montalban or Dezi Arnaz would have been invited to Augusta Country Club as a member. Do you really believe that if these were normal guys (not celebrities) they would have been able to marry into upper crust WASP families."
Maybe they weren't invited to join Augusta because the Augusta members thought they would ceaselessly complain for generations about how their ancestors were treated and that no amount of contrition would ever be enough so they figured "why bother with these people"?
Kind of like an increasingly large percentage of whites feel about blacks and other designated victims. Just a theory though - personally I feel endless guilt for how complete strangers treated other complete strangers and will continue to happily fork over money and fear for my and my kids' physical safety. After all, committing violent crime at wildly disproportionate rates is just one of the benefits that blacks have eternally coming to them.
Elvis did in fact aspire to "the colored sound" to an extent. Dean Martin was a hero to Elvis, but Elvis never sang either Italian goombah music or the show tunes Dean did after Frank Sinatra became HIS hero. Elvis sang hillbilly and gospel music, but also a R&B style of pop tune written by Jewish composers (but not those on Broadway like Gershwin, Kern or Berlin) too be sung either by white or black acts.
Neither Elvis, Dean or Frank wrote any songs to speak of. It wan't until Buddy Holly and then those English emulators the Beatles and the folkies-crossing-over like Bob Dylan that singers became songwriters too.
"You claim to be a chick, Babe; if you were hot you could marry anywhere."
Shrug.
In my salad days I was 5 8, 122 lbs, blonde, green eyed.
Didn't get a ring from any rich men.
My even better-looking friend didn't either.
It's like in Europe, Germany makes better machine tools, Italy makes better tools. German women have lighter skin but Italian women have more flavor.
As a mechanic/machinist myself I have to chuckle. The German Stahlwille and Hazet tools are superb, the Italians have pretty much quit selling hand tools.
Truth: ...but the point is that the false tendency on this site is for people to assume that there was always some system in which all whites were created equal. That is just pure fantasy.
Yes, yours. Name one commenter on this site who believes that there weren't and aren't ethnic and class distinctions among whites.
Or even among Anglo-Saxons, for that matter.
Do you really believe that Ricardo Montalban or Dezi Arnaz would have been invited to Augusta Country Club as a member. Do you really believe that if these were normal guys (not celebrities) they would have been able to marry into upper crust WASP families."
If the position of a group in American society has reached the point where "rich WASPs won't marry me and don't want me in their country club" comes to be seen as some kind of real grievance in their eyes, we can safely say that said group has reached a state of civic parity and needs to STFU with the whining.
"personally I feel endless guilt for how complete strangers treated other complete strangers and will continue to happily fork over money and fear for my and my kids' physical safety. After all, committing violent crime at wildly disproportionate rates is just one of the benefits that blacks have eternally coming to them."
And I feel endless guilt about complete strangers committing violent crimes about other complete strangers.
"In my salad days I was 5 8, 122 lbs, blonde, green eyed.
Didn't get a ring from any rich men."
Well then, I'd say that was because of bad choices you made, wouldn't you?
"Yes, yours. Name one commenter on this site who believes that there weren't and aren't ethnic and class distinctions among whites."
Oh I don't know; how about, half the previous commenters on this thread.
It depends on which scientists one asks as to weather there is more than one "race" and what an "ethnicity" is.
"f the position of a group in American society has reached the point where "rich WASPs won't marry me and don't want me in their country club" comes to be seen as some kind of real grievance in their eyes, we can safely say that said group has reached a state of civic parity and needs to STFU with the whining."
When a rich WASP won't allow a rich JEW or a rich ARGENTINIAN into a club because of his "ethnicity" the he must feel that he is of a different "race", right?
That's the entire point.
"Do you really believe Ricardo Montalban or Desi Arnaz would be invited to the Augusta country club as a member".
Well if it is private property and is a members only facility, they are within their rights in accepting or rejecting anyone they want.
That used to be called freedom of association. People exercising their preferences.
Today it is called "racism".
But PREFERENCE isn't PREJUDICE.
"You need more exposure to your social betters, Truth. Breeding still counts for something when it comes to marriage."
I don't have social betters, you do, and yes breeding counts, and so does "ethnicity", and race, but to a woman looks trump all.
RH: Yes, yours. Name one commenter on this site who believes that there weren't and aren't ethnic and class distinctions among whites."
Truth: Oh I don't know; how about, half the previous commenters on this thread.
And I managed to miss every one of them. Help me out with a name and time stamp for at least one of these "half the commenters". All I'm seeing is a bunch of people pointing out that white "Hispanics" never suffered from the kind of prejudice that non-whites were subjected to in the past.
It depends on which scientists one asks as to weather there is more than one "race" and what an "ethnicity" is.
Ah, now there are "scientists" here who have joined the "one white is as good as another" choir invisible.
When a rich WASP won't allow a rich JEW or a rich ARGENTINIAN into a club because of his "ethnicity" the he must feel that he is of a different "race", right?
Yeah, them and that poor old put-upon wog, Petitio Principii. You're just babbling here, Truth. Do you even remember what side of this "only WASPs were considered white" argument you started out on? (I am charmed, though, by your whimsical image of a wealthy white Buenos Aires sophisticate meeting social antipathy from a country-clubbin' WASP.)
This is a very silly thread.
All ethnic groups are ethno-centric to a degree and Anglos aren't uniquely different in that regard.
What is amazing though is the most ethno-centric and discriminatory group in America, the beneficiaries of the most blatant disparate impact in America, get away with sitting back and writing unbelievably hypocritical attacks on other ethnic groups for sins they are far more guilty of themselves and people react defensively instead of with scorn.
When did the Irish become white in the past?
When did the Greeks become white in the past?
How many Irish or Greeks are in the top three layers of Goldman Sachs or CBS or Paramount TODAY?
What a joke.
"Name one commenter on this site who believes that there weren't and aren't ethnic and class distinctions among whites."
Well pointing out the Rita Hayworth and Ricardo Montalban had careers is not exactly an endorsement of "believing that there were and are ethnic and class distinctions among whites, now is it?
But if you're on the time stamp thing:
I am unaware of ever being discriminated against due to the origin of my parents.
The Slate commenter sounds like he's just spitting out leftist garbage.
5/23/12 7:10 PM
And think how different Tom Cruise's career or Martin Sheen's might have been had they been regarded as white.
5/24/12 6:01 AM
"Well then, I'd say that was because of bad choices you made, wouldn't you?"
No. I'd say that the rich men who made my acquaintance weren't interested in proposing marriage. Because I wasn't of their class. (And being somebody's mistress on the side didn't interest ME. So, nodding acquaintance is as far as it ever got.)
"When a rich WASP won't allow a rich JEW or a rich ARGENTINIAN into a club because of his "ethnicity" the he must feel that he is of a different "race", right?"
Oh, please. The Unsinkable Molly Brown on the Titanic was White and (nouveau) riche. She was barely tolerated, because, being new money, she wasn't from a lineage many generations long of rich WASPs, which such breeding is what the jetset rich WASP snobs hold dear.
Molly brayed, she told off color jokes. She was, in short, gauche, and therefore looked upon with polite horror.
I ain't even nouveau riche, therefore no country-clubbing men proposed marriage, even though I was cute.
At the same time, Cromwell induced Jews back into England, especially wealthy Dutch Jews.
That is ludicrous. Initially, I misread "induced" as "introduced", and it is sort of true that Cromwell re-introduced Jews to England, though there had always been a crypto-Jewish community and a small number of Jews officially present, like those advising Henry VIII on scriptural support for his desired divorce (see David Katz's books).
But the notion that Cromwell induced Jews to come to England? The Jews manipulated the crazed philo-Semite Cromwell to secure their semi-offical return to the island. The Jewish historian Heinrich Graetz put it this way:
At the very time when the Jews of Poland were trodden down, slaughtered, or driven through Europe like terrified wild beasts, a land of freedom was opened, from which the Jews had been banished for more than three centuries and a half. England, which the wise queen Elizabeth and the brave Cromwell had raised to be the first power in Europe, a position very different from that of crumbling Poland, again admitted Jews, not indeed through the great portal, yet through the back door. But this admission was so bruited abroad, that it was like a triumph for Judaism. The Jews of Amsterdam and Hamburg looked with longing to this island, to which they were so near, with whose merchants, shipowners, and scholars they were in connection, and which promised wide scope for the exercise of their varied abilities. But settlement there seemed beset with insuperable obstacles. The English episcopal church, which exercised sway over
the English conscience, was even more intolerant than the popery which it persecuted. Not grantlng freedom to Catholics and Dissenters, would it tolerate the descendants of those aspersed in the New Testament? The English people, who for centuries had seen no Jew, shared to the full the antipathy of the clergy. To them every Jew was a Shylock, who, with hearty goodwill, would cut a Christian to pieces--a monster in human form, bearing the mark of Cain. Who would undertake to banish this strong prejudice in order to render people and rulers favorable to the descendants of Israel? The man who undertook and executed this difficult task did not belong to the first rank of intellectual men, but possessed the right measure of insight and narrowness, strength of will and flexibility, knowledge and imagination, self-denial and vanity, required for so arduous an undertaking. Manasseh ben Israel, second or third rabbi at Amsterdam, who at home played only a subordinate part, the poor preacher who, to support his family, was obliged to resort to printing, but obtained so little profit from it, that he wished to exchange pulpit oratory for mercantile speculation, and was near settling in Brazil; he it was who won England for Judaism....
Jack Johnson was boxing champion and had lots of white women in early 20th century, and he was lynched....
He died in a car crash in North Carolina.
Then there was Eamon de Valera, the half-Spanish, half-Irish president of Ireland for many years after independence.
In point of fact, Dev's Spanish father may very well never have existed at all. Historians and genealogists can find no trace of anyone answering to the name or description that Dev's mom gave. The conclusion is inescapable that Dev was illegitimate, and his father was any one of many Irish then resident in New York.
Yes, I've heard that. Doesn't make any difference. People thought he was half-Spanish, and it gave him no problem being accepted in Irish society.
In fact, the Spanish and Irish tend to like each other and feel attracted to each other's cultures. The music of parts of Spain, esp Galicia, is very similar to Irish music and even uses a type of bagpipe. At the time of the Oomagh bombing in 1998, a young visiting Spanish girl said she would return to ireland after recovering from her injuries because of the closeness she felt to it. btw, this has nothing to do with all those stories of black hair in ireland being due to Spanish Armada refugees. First of all, most Spanish don't have particularly black hair--dark maybe, but not black; and second, black hair in Ireland goes back much farther than 1588.
Please,enough of this nonsense about Spanish not being white. Go to Spain and see for yourself. Nobody who has been there would think otherwise. The phenotype is archetypically Caucasoid. The coloring is a dash darker. The Spanish fought against the Netherlands in the 1600s, trying to keep it Catholic. The Spanish did take part of Belgium and to this day one can see any number of Dutch and Belgians with what they used to call a "Catalan" look. Charlotte Bronte described such a young student in her semi-autobiography Villette.
"William Henry Pratt changed his stage name to Boris Karloff.
This guy was actually mixed race, an Anglo-Indian. Millions of WASPs are part non-white: black, amerindian etc, who iare passing."
"
oh bullshit. If someone who's ggrandparent was 1/16 black (much less Indian) is "passing" than I'm an ancient Phoenician.
The one drop rule was invented aftre the civil war by a certain tpe of society who knew who everyone's immediate ancestors were. In a society where nobody knows or cares, it doesn't matter. If you are 99% white, you'd be an idiot to call yourself "passing" as non-white. Unless you're in love with being a "victim" or really need the AA job.
In fact, except for sub-Saharan African, no non-white (however you define it) really mattered if it was more than two generations back.
Or it mattered only to the extent you made it matter.
Truth;"I don't have social betters, you do, and yes breeding counts, and so does "ethnicity", and race, but to a woman looks trump all."
We all have social betters, especially the people who claim that they don't have them.As for looks in a woman trumping all, you really need to get around more, assuming that you are talking about marriage and not a pump and dump.
Truth:"When a rich WASP won't allow a rich JEW or a rich ARGENTINIAN into a club because of his "ethnicity" the he must feel that he is of a different "race", right?
That's the entire point."
Hardly.One can note how White Americans were blackballed at clubs in England for being American.Race never entered into it.You really need to hang around the higher order, chum.
"Hardly.One can note how White Americans were blackballed at clubs in England for being American.Race never entered into it.You really need to hang around the higher order, chum."
"Higher order"? "Bettors"? It seems as though you have slotted yourself in life.
How can something be both institutional and personal?
The Cubans I have known certainly haven't been troubled by thier feelings of inferiority to WASPs.
After graduate school I became a management consultant. Our firm was diverse - every consultant was either a Jew or an Irish Catholic. We had no Protestants. We were all hired in the single week after the company got the contract to fight in Nixon's War on Cancer.
It took another week to hire the secretaries. We had two for the project. Both were gorgeous. I mean really gorgeous. Embarrassingly gorgeous.
One was from a "noble" Cuban refugee family. She was a honey blond with perfect teeth, skin and grooming. She was at the absolute bottom of the company hierarchy and all the consultants had graduate degrees in math of some kind. You might think a girl in her early twenties might be intimidated. But no. She was nice enough but it was clear that she didn't consider anyone in the company to be her social equal. She had a kind of aristocratic hauteur like what I imagined the Ancien Régime exhibited.
She gave me an insight into why sometimes you need a revolution.
Albertosaurus
Truth:""Higher order"? "Betters"? It seems as though you have slotted yourself in life."
Sadly, we don't get to "slot" ourselves;society assigns us our stations.All of us have a rank, especially those who are foolish enough to think otherwise.
"Sadly, we don't get to "slot" ourselves"
Oh that's right, I forgot you posted from Bulgaria.
One was from a "noble" Cuban refugee family. She was a honey blond with perfect teeth, skin and grooming. She was at the absolute bottom of the company hierarchy and all the consultants had graduate degrees in math of some kind. You might think a girl in her early twenties might be intimidated. But no. She was nice enough but it was clear that she didn't consider anyone in the company to be her social equal. She had a kind of aristocratic hauteur like what I imagined the Ancien Régime exhibited.
She gave me an insight into why sometimes you need a revolution.
I know these types well. Cuba, most Central American countries, Argentina, Chile and Spain itself send them over. Usually they speak four or five languages. Often very attractive. But let one into a company's upper circle and all hell breaks loose. They wind up getting fired and becoming librarians or church secretaries, but not after they've destroyed a company.
Often they're nymphos too, but they have the sense to never start going with anyone at work, so people think they're not what they are.
here should be some kind of affirmative action function on every calculator.
For every four (4) poor Oaxacan peasants sneaking over the border, white people must send at least one (1) of the Desi Arnaz Brown-Skinned Talented Tenth to college.
This maintains the 1:4 college attendance ratio that white folks have.
Xochitl Hinojosa never, ever, ever, has to see, touch, feel, or smell these little brown MS-13 people,
She and her kin avoid them like the plague. But their very presence in the USA guarantees brownaffirmative action slots in the colleg and workplace hierarchy.
There IS. The Mexican elite are driving their undesirable indios and mestizos north. Since the gringo is stupid enough to let them do it, who can blame them?
Gen. Pedro del Valle was, as improbable as it sounds, a good friend of Revilo P. Oliver.
I found this blurb to be hilarious (in a positive way)! Americans loved "I love Lucy" and Lucy and Desi were never seen as an inter-racial couple by the American meanstream. They were no more inter-racial than, say, an Irish American woman married to an Italian American man. I appreciate the satirical irony!
My mother was White (northern European desent) and my father was Nicaraguan, from an aristocratic family of academics and business people. To this day, the tradition continues, my father and all of his siblings have college degrees and graduate degrees, including from Ivy Leauge schools).
In turns out, Both of my father's grandfather's had light eyes, and I would assume that my father is at least 70% European in ancestry and the rest is Native American and African.
I have never been perceived as non-White by anglo Americans nor can I recall suffering discrimination. When police pull me over, on tickets, police officers always write "White" as my ethnicity, even though I have a very Spanish surname and a Spanish Middle name.
My father and all of his brothers are dating or have married White women of the non-Hispanic variety. At family events, it is interesting how so many of my Nicaraguan relatives have either blue or green eyes that you can hardly tell them apart from their non-Hispanic white marriage and dating partners. Interestingly, our only known European ancestry is from Spain, both the Northern and Southern part of the country.
Before the left tried to gain polical influence by dreaming up some umbrella term Hispanic which includes everyone from a blonde blue eyed Argentine, to a Black Dominican, the racial variation among Latin Americans was seen for what it is. There are White Latin Americans, and not so white Latin Americans. my father's mother comes from an old aristocratic Nicaraguan family and was not brain washed by the American left and the La Raza movement. In fact, or better or worse, my grandmother was particurally racist against Blacks, and Latinos with heavy Native and/or African features. She would have been very angry with my father and his brothers if they brought home a woman who had strong Native American or African features. It is no accident that all of my father's brothers' wives have either green or eyes, because racism exists in Latin America and my grandmother encouraged her sons to stick with Whites, as our ancestors in Nicaragua did for the most part.
I have never thought of myself as being the product of an interracial marriage. I consider myself to be White, although my father definitely does have some Native American and possibly African ancestry (his ancestros from Spain came over in the 1600-1700's so there is bound to be some mixture). I guess it is no different than the fact that White Russians from the European part of Russia have up to 10% East Asian ancestry from the Mongol invasions, but are still considered White, and the Census classifies North Africans from places like Morroco as White when they have 10-20% Sub Saharan Ancestry.
By the way, for those of you who have doubts about the existence of White Nicaraguans, I urge you to google "Enrique Bolanos", who was a recent president of Nicaragua. Also I urge you to read a peer reviewed article, "Reconstructing the population history of Nicaragua by means of mtDNA, Y-chromosome STRs, and autosomal STR markers."
Those are my thoughts on the subject.
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