September 5, 2012

Obama v. Jesse Jackson at reading "Green Eggs and Ham"

At the VDARE blog, James Fulford has contrasting videos of Barack Obama and Jesse Jackson reading Dr. Seuss's Green Eggs and Ham

Jackson's version is great. I didn't make it through Obama's version, but I did like the part at 0:24 when he's stumbling around and Michelle starts clapping, perhaps in the hope that everybody will join in and put an end to this ordeal before it gets started.

Much of the palpable disappointment with Obama among youngish voters who got so excited about him in 2008 is that for their whole lives they'd been informed that black guys are cool. So what could be cooler than electing President Will Smith? But then President Obama turned out to be, the more you got to know him, nowhere near as cool as he thinks he is.

We could have guessed that long ago from the way Michelle treats him. According to Jodi Kantor's book The Obamas, Michelle still very much believes in Barack as "transformational" for the rest of us. But, her body language always suggested that she never really got Obamania, and in fact resented the hoopla over her husband, who, if you know him the way Michelle knows him, isn't all that.

Kantor discovered that Michelle's initial reaction to his election was to demand a separation -- he could go bach it in the White House while she and the girls stayed in Chicago through the rest of the 2008-2009 schoolyear. Eventually, aides talked her out of what would have been a PR cataclysm, and her mood has improved as her husband's poll ratings came down from the stratosphere.

Comparing Obama to Jackson is particularly germane because Michelle was Jesse Jackson's babysitter. It's hard for people familiar only with the grandiose wreck of 70-year-old Jesse Jackson to grasp what he was like in the 1970s. I found this anecdote:
In June 1971, LOOK magazine recorded an encounter between Sen. Edward Kennedy and Rev. Jesse Jackson. 
Kennedy "stuck out his hand and exchanged banalities [with Jackson]. Kennedy acted like a man running for the Presidency. Jackson, typically, acted like a man who is President." The article went on to say Jackson is "the closest thing to a national leader that has surfaced on today's fragmented civil rights scene. Tough talking, fast-stepping Jesse Jackson is as different from the conventional notion of a black minister as a Maserati is from a Dodge."

Imagine being 15-year-old Michelle showing up Saturday evening to babysit. The 38-year-old Reverend Jackson, dressed magnificently, comes down the stairs of his 15-room house, heading out to some banquet to receive yet another award and give another galvanizing oration, and, yet, he takes time from his busy schedule to chat with the suddenly shy girl ... 

How can poor Barack compete with that?

57 comments:

Mr. Mcgranor said...

You 'southern paleoconservative' of should i say: white nationalists, are just perturbed that many of you are Catholic, and hence not a w.a.s.p.

Anonymous said...

Maybe he figured he could compete by winning the presidency?

Maybe D'Sousa was looking in the wrong place. Maybe he's trying to kill whitey because that's what Michelle wants.

Finally, he looks like a complete fool (and a highly nervous, fidgety beta) trying to read the book and show the kids the pictures are the same time. He should either read from the book without showing the pictures, or have Michelle hold the book and turn the pages.

Whiskey said...

FWIW, Obama wrote a loving paean in his HS yearbook to the gay guy and drug dealer of the class. So pleasing Michelle may or may not have been on the agenda.

But yes, anyone under the age of say 50 has been told all their life that Black guys are far cooler than White ones, and that Black women are far more wise and cool than White ones (see Oprah, billions thereof, made by being every White woman's imaginary Black best friend).

What a disappointment to recognize the reality of hyper-incompetence. Which is a running theme in Black culture -- talk a good game and be absolutely incompetent at pretty much everything but sports (music among Black people has practically disappeared, there are no more instrumental or vocal virtuosos who used to be common).

Anonymous said...

"Much of the palpable disappointment with Obama among youngish voters who got so excited about him in 2008 is that for their whole lives they'd been informed that black guys are cool. So what could be cooler than electing President Will Smith? But then President Obama turned out to be, the more you got to know him, nowhere near as cool as he thinks he is."

What?

I'm one of those young voters who voted for him. I do not know this sentiment anywhere among my friends, and we all campaigned for him. We are all pretty much voting for him again.

If there's any disappointment, it's that he has not been as progressive as we would have liked with respect to the wars, environment, etc.

He's going to win re-election. According to his latest PR email, over 188,000 students have contributed.

smead jolley said...

Steve, look at this - an NBA team had a woman President in 1991.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1991-Wes-Unseld-Washington-Bullets-Head-Coach-Staff-Press-Photo-/251010924386?pt=Art_Photo_Images&hash=item3a716abf62

JeremiahJohnbalaya said...

If there's any disappointment, it's that he has not been as progressive as we would have liked with respect to the wars, environment, etc.

Lunatic Fringe

Anonymous said...

Here's another bit of the dynamic that's worth mentioning: I saw then-Senator Obama speak in 2005. When some idiot college freshman asked a question strongly hinting that the Senator should consider running for President, his answer was something along the lines of, "Well, my wife would kill me if I took on any more responsibility than I have now, so I'm going to focus on the Senate job". I mention this not because I have been lied to in person by a future President of the United States, but because it suggests that Michelle was certainly less-than-thrilled at her husband's decision to run.


Incidentally, in preparation for seeing him speak, I tried to slog my way through Dreams from My Father (I had to skim the last third, as it was putting me to sleep). My early exposure to his "Story of Race and Inheritance" probably explains why I never understood Obamamania in the least. The book having punctured any illusions I might have held about the Senator "transcending" race, I saw his speech for what it was- uninspired boilerplate leftist balderdash.

Son of Brock Landers said...

Her constant snarky comments or stares at him in public are a bitmuch. Leader fot eh free world should be able to get his wife to pump up his ego in public. One has to wonder if Michelle will radiantly glow if Barack loses, sulks and dips into a depression phase. In the end, she may be able to say 'you we're always pretending to be the man jesse was". Barack digs into comic books and always views himself in story terms. A loss would be far more in line with his life story arc. It would be a nation that embraced but ultimately, rejected him. I smell another autobiography!

Truth said...

"Which is a running theme in Black culture -- talk a good game and be absolutely incompetent at pretty much everything but sports..."

Yeah but Whiskey, talking a good game is an art in and of itself; I mean, I get fair feeling that you are incompetent at everything and your talk indicates exactly that.

The Legendary Linda said...

Steve did you see Jodi kantor being asked by Charlie rose last night about obama's incredible intelligence? She said that she thinks republicans who demand to see obama's law school grades are making a BIG mistake, because she suspects his grades were AMAZING. She cites the awe and respect people in his inner circle speak of his intelligence and she noted how brilliant is he is at synthesis. You can probably watch the episode on the Charlie rose show web page. The latest Obama biographer agreed with her.

peterike said...

I'm one of those young voters who voted for him. I do not know this sentiment anywhere among my friends, and we all campaigned for him.

Ahhh you clueless white putz. Its so engrained in your little dank soul that you can't even recognize it. You defer to blacks automatically. You fetishize and think it's normal, just the way things are. You're a programmed robot.

Lucius said...

I don't know if Kantor is being a very useful sort of "useful idiot" or what.

Steve's predilection for thinking his way inside the media's inside game often yields fascinating ideas, but maybe what Jodi's doing doesn't quite rise to the level of "dogwhistling".

Then again: why would she talk this with Charlie Rose now? Obama's almost finished a whole term in the White House and still--no transcripts.

Has anybody near Obama even hinted he might be suddenly willing to release them? Are we being prepped for five minutes of Jodi handling one, sans reading glasses, in the West Wing lavatory?

Or is she just channeling some boast from the White House? Is she curious? Is she egging the Romney team on? Or what?

To say she bets they're stellar is just peculiar . . . only one way to know, right? If she's at all curious, shouldn't she be a bit angry at Obama for witholding the proof of all this academic excellence?

Anonymous said...

>>Ahhh you clueless white putz. Its so engrained in your little dank soul that you can't even recognize it. You defer to blacks automatically. You fetishize and think it's normal, just the way things are. You're a programmed robot.

Nah, we just don't see the world as you do.

Derp.

Anonymous said...

The Obama Story is really a fairytale concocted by Jews for white folks with childlike minds. Even Sailer who should know better thinks Obama is a 'fine fellow'. Gimme a break!

And notice Obama titled his book DREAMS FROM MY FATHER and centered the narrative on the search for his father. Though written by an adult for adults, there is a tugging of the childlike heart. Oh, poor poor Obama, like the fish kid in FINDING NEMO trying to reconnect with his father or the young lion cub who lost his father, physically and then spiritually searching for his own father. Oh boo hoo.

That is some ham for eggheads.

Anonymous said...

"Ahhh you clueless white putz. Its so engrained in your little dank soul that you can't even recognize it. You defer to blacks automatically. You fetishize and think it's normal, just the way things are. You're a programmed robot."

Or, you know, the guy inherited a real estate crash, a financial system meltdown, and two wars and done a decent job of digging us out of the mess that had been left for him.

Anonymous said...

>>Ahhh you clueless white putz. Its so engrained in your little dank soul that you can't even recognize it. You defer to blacks automatically. You fetishize and think it's normal, just the way things are. You're a programmed robot.

Not to mention, there's one party that still vilifies science, that still has creationists as its leaders, that still denies climate change, that still prides anti-intellectualism. Your post is emblematic of that fact.

There are certainly race based differences in intellectual ability, but Obama is obviously--to any non-deranged or mentally unbalanced person--an exceptional individual. Moreover, he belongs to a party that supports science and the environment leaps and bounds over the other, and that has actually created a net gain in jobs whereas the last guy pretty much blew everything up.

But boogity boogity, he's a black guy who hates white people, y'all!

Anonymous said...

How can you say Jesse Jackson's recitation was "great?" It sounded like a ignorant semi-illiterate droning on in an ebonics monotone. Jesse does everything at one volume. His political speeches just sound like a guy hoarsely shouting every stupid cliche in the book. He is VERY VERY FAR from being anywhere near eloquent.

Truth said...

"Ahhh you clueless white putz. Its so engrained in your little dank soul that you can't even recognize it. You defer to blacks automatically. You fetishize and think it's normal, just the way things are. You're a programmed robot."

Wait a minute, Vladimir, U thought we had freedom of choice in this great nation.

Anonymous said...

"I'm one of those young voters who voted for him. I do not know this sentiment anywhere among my friends, and we all campaigned for him. We are all pretty much voting for him again"


Muuuuuuwwwwaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!

Welcome to a lifetime of paying off debt, little one. You'll be richly rewarded for your vote with a shrinking paycheck and mounting taxes for the next 50 years of your working life, that is, if you even manage to have a working life.... and for what???????

Anonymous said...

Anon at 6:17 said, "you know, the guy inherited a real estate crash, a financial system meltdown, and two wars and done a decent job of digging us out of the mess that had been left for him."

Or, you know, anyone could have done NOTHING at all and we'd likely be about where we are right now without that added debt.

And, uh, oh yeah....what about how it was the liberal philosophy (yes, promoted by George Bush the younger and all the Dems--Chris Dodd, Franklin Raines, Maxine Waters, Barney Frank) of letting people who couldn't afford the tiniest of down payments get loans from Freddie and Fanny????


Huh, huh, huh? You know, that stupid idea that just because a person hasn't saved any money he should be able to buy a house shit?

alexis said...

Check out Jesse in fine form circa972 here . The hero worship begins at 2:00.

Anonymous said...

I only met Jesse Jackson once (circa 1991) but he was a good speaker and an impressive presence. What he said was American racial-leftist claptrap, but his delivery and affect were great.

Anonymous said...

"Or, you know, the guy inherited a real estate crash, a financial system meltdown, and two wars and done a decent job of digging us out of the mess that had been left for him."

He's done quite well for us. You, me and Jamie Dimon agree!

Anonymous said...

Ha ha. How can you possibly say Obama is a "great guy." He's an overgrown adolescent brat and leftist tyrant. He is an entitled, affirmative-action parasite of no particular distinction one way or the other. He is a condescending, sanctimonious twit whose estimation of himself is one big deadly sin.

peterike said...

Moreover, he belongs to a party that supports science

Like HBD? Like racial and gender differences in intelligence and personality traits? Like the latest awareness in nutrition? Like the "science" of second-hand smoke?

and the environment leaps and bounds over the other,

Fanatically, to the detriment of millions of jobs, lunatic perfectionism driving out economic freedom and wealth. And all that pollution they "saved"? Nuh uh. They just shipped it to China and elsewhere, where it's a thousand times worse than it would be here. So millions of jobs lost, and Mother Gaya damaged viciously in the bargain. Genius.

Meanwhile, they have spent billions on chimerical "climate change" while real environmental problems go unaddressed.

and that has actually created a net gain in jobs

** snicker **

whereas the last guy pretty much blew everything up.

I won't argue with that one. But the last guy sucking doesn't make you suck less. That's science.

Auntie Analogue said...

Bess Truman spent long spells in Independence, Missouri, away from Harry in the White House. Which only goes to show the supposed "role" of First Ladies has inflated out of all proportion to the - ummm- votes that people cast for them.

Ex Submarine Officer said...

This is like all those "Despite crime drop, incarcerations are at a record" pieces that willfully refuse to make a connection.

Apple - despite lack of diversity, one of the most successful companies in the world today.

I guess they just somehow beat all the odds? Couldn't be any other explanation.

PC is a religion whose adherents refuse to make the most obvious and elementary logical inferences for fear of being excommunicated as a heretic.

peterike said...

Which "Green Eggs and Ham" performance is worse. Obama, or Tim Tebow:

http://youtu.be/jejfpWYlCR0

Anonymous said...

"-an exceptional individual."

I see nothing exceptional. Please support the case. He is a mediocrity like most politicians. Only the Reverend Wright knows his views on creation. His ghost written, I'm sorry, ghost polished, books are boring. Steve's book about his book is much more interesting. Does he ever talk or write about science? In some ways he seems a little below average: he lived in a foreign country for a couple of years, as a child no less, but never picked up the language - I know adult cleaners and security guards who have done better.
Michelle said his grandmother was passed over when she was Vice President of a bank, I have to presume Barry told her that; do you think he'd be okay with that if it was a black man who stole her job. Please explain the SCIENCE behind affirmative action - survival of the lamest? Was he thankful toward the bank that provided that salary that allowed him to attend an elite private school after his freaky mother abandoned him? No, he was just ungrateful. He is an average college graduate. If he wasn't president he wouldn't be capable of doing anything that would have added any distinction to the colleges he attended.

Anonymous said...

Forget politics, if it came to Maserati vs. Dodge, I'd take a 1971 Challenger over the Maserati.

Hugh said...

Obama certainly drew the short straw with Michelle. She's plain evil.

I don't know what to make of the rumours of Obama frequenting gay bath houses, but Michelle is circumstantial evidence supporting this thesis.

Truth said...

Sorry guys, I think your election is over.

I thought the powers that be might actually have to fix this one to get Barry back in office, but no, it's over.

Bill Clinton is a walking, breathing embodiment of the 10,000 hour rule. As a speaker, he's basically unparalleled...except by maybe Barry.

He's so much better than anyone you have, it's frightening, but here's the scary part; so is the president's WIFE. Your convention totally sucked, no energy, no great speakers, just old tired stories about the past.

Clinton, and Michelle's speeches were so good they almost make me want to cast a vote for brown puppet over white puppet. Of course that won't happen, I'm not you.

Better luck in 2016.

Maya said...

But... From what I understand, Michelle is a middle class girl, not ghetto. Now, I'm not a fan of our president, but between him- a tall, intellectual, fit-bodied reader of great books with an elite education- and the flamboyant jester Jesse Jackson (who, in his better days, was merely more flamboyant), what even moderately intelligent and even minimally cultured woman could possibly prefer the clown?

Maya said...

"Sorry guys, I think your election is over."

The election has been over for awhile now. The machine vomited up our president of the next 4 years, and an identical spare model. If you think the model we've been using is a bit worn out, vote for the new unit. If the old unit still seems relatively shiny, vote to keep him in place. It doesn't matter. I'm sorry too.

Anonymous said...

Truth, as often happens I agree with your analysis. But a lot can happen between now and November.

Also, the idea that Obama is after normal white folks of his own volition is nuts. He takes his orders from the white establishment who don't like the Bristol Palins and Levi Johnstons of America. Don't blame anything on him you wouldn't blame on Pelosi et al.

I have a feeling if the commentators here spent more time among blacks and whites in political positions they might have better insight over what motivates both groups.

Gloria

Anonymous said...

>>Like HBD? Like racial and gender differences in intelligence and personality traits?

The reason why these aren't recognized? Because most people couldn't handle it. Look at all the morons who post about Obama being a "leftist tyrant."

These people couldn't handle HBD--as well as many on the left--because they simply are incapable of weighing out merit. Yes, the guy's black--but measure his policies against other Presidents. Only a small segment of society is capable of logically weighing out the details--most think in terms of dogma mixed with light weight reasoning.

Obama wouldn't have been elected if it was the common consensus that black people are dumber because despite the fact that Obama is a legitimately smart guy, the majority of people would have been subconsciously saying, "He's black. I can't vote for him."

I know the Sailer-retards will feel compelled to respond to this post saying, "You think he's smart? Boy, you shure are dumb!"

As far as gender personality differences, I would argue that a good percentage smart liberals know there are differences--especially those from science backgrounds. I had a discussion with a friend of mine (a girl) about physicists/mathematicians and how they tend to be male. She acknowledge that most will be male due to innate abilities, but the feminist movement is about pushing girls to reach their full potential and not having them shortchange their innate ability. If they're good enough to be mathematicians, great. If not, great.

And here's the key component that distinguishes the best of progressives from the best conservatives: emotional intelligence. I know that's hard for you guys to pick up--Dunning Kruger effect and all ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect ).

peterike said...

"but the feminist movement is about pushing girls to reach their full potential and not having them shortchange their innate ability. If they're good enough to be mathematicians, great. If not, great."

Amongst the barrage of inane drivel you have spouted, this perhaps takes the cake.

Anonymous said...

>>"Like the latest awareness in nutrition?"

What latest awareness are you referring to here?

DYork said...

Truth said...

Sorry guys, I think your election is over....

Your convention totally sucked, no energy, no great speakers, just old tired stories about the past.

Clinton, and Michelle's speeches were so good they almost make me want to cast a vote for brown puppet over white puppet.


I'm voting for a problem solver not a speech-giver.

I'm sure a dozen stand-up comics and talk-show hosts could give better speeches and have a more entertaining convention, but I wouldn't vote for them.

Anonymous said...

Obama is a genius at exploiting white guilt. Since his mother and grandfather were personifications of it, he had ideal specimens to examine - he knows all the buttons to push.

Anonymous said...

I'm Orthodox mofo.

Hey, did you ever tell us what "anti-Gnosticism" amounted to?

Thanks.

The Legendary Linda said...

I'm sure a dozen stand-up comics and talk-show hosts could give better speeches and have a more entertaining convention, but I wouldn't vote for them.

And they wouldn't have needed a teleprompter to do it.

Anonymous said...

Stop feeding the trolls guys

The Anti-Gnostic said...

The "environment?" The ENVIRONMENT?

Environmentalism is dead on the Left. What do you think happens as we add over a million people per year and get them places to live and throw their trash? How do you expect to pay for all your grand social engineering schemes without strip mines and clear-cutting in the national parks? Who's going to win that debate, the huddled masses or white, middle-class backpackers?

Environmentalism is a white nationalist cause at this point.

James Kabala said...

"Kantor discovered that Michelle's initial reaction to his election was to demand a separation -- he could go bach it in the White House while she and the girls stayed in Chicago through the rest of the 2008-2009 schoolyear."

I guess I have to read the book, but it seems a stretch to call this a separation. I mean, they would have been physically separated, but "separation" implies legal separation as a prelude to likely divorce. Families living temporarily apart for work reasons is not an unheard-of thing, and I know many other cases of parents afraid (probably unnecessarily) that their children will be put off balance or outright traumatized if they have to change schools during the school year.

JSM said...

"Not to mention, there's one party that still vilifies science"

No, little putz, there's TWO parties that vilify science --

"that still has creationists as its leaders"

HBD-denial is liberal creationism. And ALL the Democrat leadership recite that creed.

"that still denies climate change, that still prides anti-intellectualism."
Anti-intellectualism? The Dems are the ones who Watsoned Watson for being intellectully honest in his pessimism for Africa.


"Your post is emblematic of that fact."

Your post is emblematic that you need to do some more reading around here and less popping off, awhile.
That's okay, young'un, youthful hubris and unwarranted cocksurety is common for the young -- and the black. Are you one or the other -- or both?

BB said...

what even moderately intelligent and even minimally cultured woman could possibly prefer the clown?

99.99 % of them,of course. Barry is upper beta (at best) and Jesse is an ueber-alpha, in roissy-speak.To channel Whiskey: Michelle HATES HATES HATES beta males. She´d much rather have 5 mins of Jesse than a lifetime of Barry. But she´s sort of stuck with him. For how long?
If Barack lost this election I bet she´d dump him. It won´t happen, though. Romney and Ryan are just a couple of beautiful losers, putting on a mediocre show.


Otis McWrong said...

anonymous said "Not to mention, there's one party that still vilifies science, that still has creationists as its leaders, that still denies climate change'

Who are the creationists and in which party? I'm not aware of any in either party beyond Huckabee and nobody pays attention to him. If you're going to count Huckabee against the GOP then you have to count Congressman "All Those Marines will make Guam tip over" against the Dems.

Nobody that in informed denies climate change. Most people are aware of the ice ages for example. What people credibly deny is a) human responsibility and b) in the unlikely event a) is true that anything can be done about it.

Its nice that you and your fellow children are taking an interest in current events but you should really expand your sources. Also put together some critical thinking skills. Finally you should understand basic science, as opposed to engaging in Scientist Worship.

Seth said...

Wow Obama's recitation of the book was horrible....painful. Look at the faces on his wife and kids, the girls especially. They are embarrassed, looking at the ground, exactly the way kids look when their dad is in over his head. Hilarious.

Anonymous said...

obama was trying too hard - jackson eased into it, yo.

Pat Boyle said...

It's all too easy to confuse incompetance with 'coolness'.

I learned this first in a film class. The teacher pointed out that Jean Luc Goddard never quite understood how to match shots. For example, when an actor goes through a door, it's important to match up that shot with the one where he comes out the other side. Otherwise you create a "jump cut". Goddard knew nothing of such things but the Nuvelle Vague had greatly expanded the opportunities for new film makers. Suddenly Goddard was a sensation. He had a unique look and feel to his footage. He had lots of inadvertant jump cuts for which a film student would have been flunked but he was praised. Goddard was cool.

Years later I and my wife were on the train from Italy to Nice. We met a young Italian conductor who was going to Monte Carlo to record an album with Julia Migenes-Johnson. After a while he confided in us that his compatriot and friend Giuseppi Sinopoli who was then just becoming famous, didn't really know the music. He kept releasing full opera recordings on big labels but he had never learned the repertoire. Many critics were excited to hear these old works done in new ways. But his new sound was simply ignorance. Sinopoli was incompetant but Sinopoli was cool.

Albertosaurus

alonzo portfolio said...

I'm one of those young voters who voted for him. I do not know this sentiment anywhere among my friends ...

You seem to be unacquainted with your own generation. Last summer, at a shopping center in a famously blue upscale county, I came up behind five 18-year old guys, one of whom was black. The black kid starts to walk off, and as he does he says to the rest, "stay black." One of the white kids answers, "always." What a joke you are.

not a hacker said...

Chris Mullin had a good story of when he first joined the GS Warriors. He was working on his shooting two hours before a game, and one of the four black starters told him, "don't do that - it makes the rest of us look bad." I'm betting it was Joe Barry Carroll.

Truth said...

"The black kid starts to walk off, and as he does he says to the rest, "stay black." One of the white kids answers, "always." What a joke you are."

Alonzo, we don't need third person stories here; besides that was a long time ago, you've matured and become an Alpha since then.

Maya said...

"Barry is upper beta (at best) and Jesse is an ueber-alpha, in roissy-speak.To channel Whiskey: Michelle HATES HATES HATES beta males. She´d much rather have 5 mins of Jesse than a lifetime of Barry. But she´s sort of stuck with him."

Well... If insecure white pseudo-intellectual men like Whiskey and Roissy look up to loud-mouthed embarrassments (though, I'm inclined to believe that one is a troll and the other is a fictional character), insecure middle class black women could too. Seems like it would be psychologically exhausting to seek approval of one's obvious inferiors, and so desperately...

Alcalde Jaime Miguel Curleo said...

If you caught the reminiscence recently from D.L. Hughley about selling his Leimert Park house to the Jackson mistress handler, it was a small humorous glimpse into the behind-the-scenes of the racial activism biz

Anonymous said...

Environmentalism is a white nationalist cause at this point.

Whites do a pretty good job shitting on the environment with or without immigrants.