I confess that all the psychometric technical stuff often makes my eyes glaze over! I commented to someone recently that I think that’s why the focus of my own blogging has been geared more (much more!) towards mating patterns and altruism and the nature of extended families and clans rather than IQ. I mean, who marries whom and which families fight with each other? It’s like following a big soap opera! (~_^)
This extended family structure stuff that HBD Chick specializes in strikes me as hugely important for understanding cultural differences around the world (and even perhaps genetic differences that flow from the cultural differences), but also dauntingly difficult for me to wrap my male brain around. (I've sometimes had to ask my wife how exactly I'm related to various members of my own extended family, even though I've known them a lot longer than she has.)
HBD Chick reminds me of (a much more cheerful version) of Jessica Chastain's character in Zero Dark Thirty. She finds Osama not by kicking in his door, but by being able to keep track of individual relationships within a vast network of interlocking extended families that make up the core of Al-Qaeda.
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Wait, so that means HBD chick found Osama bin Laden?
Shhhhhh ...
She should change her 'name'. HBD is often mistaken for happy birthday.
"Wait, so that means HBD chick found Osama bin Laden?"
No, his long lost cousins and nephews.
"She finds Osama not by kicking in his door, but by being able to keep track of individual relationships within a vast network of interlocking extended families that make up the core of Al-Qaeda."
I had no interest in that movie till you said that - will watch it now.
"I had no interest in that movie till you said that"
As the only female Best Director Oscar winner ever, Kathryn Bigelow's opinions on male/female differences are worth paying attention to.
But practically nobody else is going to articulate in words what her movies show.
I don't really remember the female CIA applying any particular insight into family relationships to discern Osama's hideout. Can anyone explain?
Has HBD Chick commented on E.O. Wilson's new on group selection?
Robert Hume
Why doesn't she use proper capitalization? I find her blog unreadable because of this.
Haha. I was able to wrap my brain around my wife's sizeable extended family once I brought my 3D spatial reasoning to bear. I could never remember how anyone was related, but after it somehow became a topology problem to me: piece of cake. Actually, then it became interesting. Go figure. :-)
I still have problems with faces -- the whole clan looks alike to me -- but once I'm able to put them on their branch, presto, I know who I'm talking to! Which is not to say I necessarily remember their name. Chances are I don't, but I know who their immediate family is. ;-)
I recently had a new thought about inter-racial pairings. I haven't read enough about HBD to know whether this is actually a new idea or just new to me.
Often times, masculinity is cited as an explanation of the disproportionate number of Black male-White female and White male-Asian female pairings. I suppose that it makes sense and I never really challenged it.
Recently, I've noticed that the masculinity explanation doesn't really fit what I see in real life. I live on the west coast and see many inter-racial pairings. It dawned on me that most White males that date and marry Asian females are, on average and stereotypically, nerdy/beta and actually no more masculine than the average Asian male. I think this assessment is also consistent with BM-WF pairings I see, minus the professional athletes. I'm sure masculinity has some impact, but from the hundreds of couples I see in real life, it doesn't appear to be a major factor. From my observations, it appears that many factors outweigh masculinity. For example, cultural rebelliousness on the part of the female seems to be a bigger factor than masculinity.
Another factor, not often cited from my limited reading, seems to be time horizon. This seems to be visible and consistent in most inter-racial pairings, even AM-BF. For instance, individuals in interracial relationships typically seem to have a time horizon that deviates from their racial norm, taking IQ and education level into account, towards one another.
In short, females of any race paired with East Asian males seem to have longer time horizons, while females of any race paired with Black males seem to have shorter time horizons than their race average. The opposite also seems to be true. Males of any race paired with Black females have shorter time horizons and Males of any race paired with Asian females seem to have a longer time horizon than their race average, isolated for IQ and education level.
After all, in the immortal words of Cyndi Lauper, Link girls just want to have fun.
If there are any studies on this, could someone provide a link? Thank you.
>dauntingly difficult for me to wrap my male brain around [is] how exactly I'm related to various members of my own extended family<
Me too. Immediate family, ok. Aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews... same mental difficulty as learning to speak a new language. (Bubba is an uncle, meaning he's, uh, my father's brother, no, he's my mother's brother. His son is my, uh, um, nephew, no, cousin - who is my nephew? - hell, I give up.) No use explaining it to me; my brain is dead, forget it. And when it comes to "first removed," "second removed," REALLY forget it. Easier to explain differential calculus to a 10-year-old.
To say it once more, (average) men and (average) women really ARE different.
But how much of this difference in ability/interest regarding family relations is sex-based and how much culture-based? America (even the "new south") is very nuclear-family centered. Plus, Appalachian low-English climbers like me were encouraged not to know extended relatives: they might hit you up for money, bum off you, or rob you.
Anon 7:18
Nterracial marriages are discussed in soe depth in this Pew center report on interracial marriage.
One thing that is very clear reading the report is that interracial marriage isn't all the same. For example, whites who marry Asians tend to be much more educated than other whites. (At a guess, they're meeting their future spouse in school or at a job that requires intelligence and education.). White men who marry nonwhite women also tend to be somewhat more educated than other whites, White women who marry nonwhife, non-Asian men are in general less educated. I suspect this is also reflecting meeting in the workplace or at a less selective school. Hispanics who marry whites tend to be much better educated and make much more money than other hispanics, though I bet a lot of that is explained by the large fraction of hispanics who are recent immigrants doing bottom-tier jobs and not speaking much English. If you're here illegally hanging drywall, speak about 20 words of English, and make squat, you're not all that likely to meet and marry some white girl. On the other hand, if you're a second generation Mexican who goes off to college, you're much more likely to marry a white girl you meet in school.
Similarly, from what I've read, white men who marry nonwhites have about the same divorce rate as when they marry whites. (Except that white men who marry black women have a somewhat lower divorce rate than everyone else.) White women who marry nonwhites tend to have a somewhat higher divorce rate, except when they marry white hispanics. (So if Zimmerman manages to avoid prison, he may make some girl a fine husband some day.).
Great interview, and though I've only started reading her blog, it's very refreshing to have the perspective of a female quant (which I'm not at *all*; why have I been here for ten years?!?).
I started reading her when I started hearing about her work on family and relationships, LOL at female stereotypes!
Now, if HBD Chick starts investigating germs and selection, well that will be the cat's meow!
(Are women really very interested in germs as Steve has said? My feeling and intuition says that women are somewhat more interested, but when the topic is stds, which are profoundly important to our health and evolution, the vast majority of people, and obviously an even stronger majority of men, cannot engage the topic due to fear and change the subject. HBD Chick, perhaps you may NOT want to engage my favorite topic after all; in my experience, no other subject clears out readers faster, Steveosphere included!)
a vast network of interlocking extended families that make up the core of Al-Qaeda.
Is this true? I've never heard this. Do you have a reference for this?
In the interview HBD chick indicated that she felt we should basically expect the Scots-Irish and several other Middle Eastern peoples to behave in a manner that is corrupt and self-serving, throwing favors to other members of their group, because there has been (and still is) a high amount of inbreeding within the group, and goes on to explain why NE Europeans evolved to not behave this way, because of societal pressure to outbreed.
This is insightful and may be true, but to me, the important thing is less about whether that behavior can be justified through an explanation, its whether or not it exists, and if so how people should be thinking on a national level about dealing with it.
We may know the reasons for why someone does something, but nevertheless, we need to protect ourselves from it.
People from inbreeding clannish groups get their just rewards in a society of similar people, but when they are minorities in a larger society of outbreeding people, who allow equal opportunity and equal justice before law based on merit, the inbreeders have an enormous advantage by 'cheating' and not following the same principles. If they do take it over,they'll screw themselves by turning it into an 'inbreeding' behaving society, but they'll screw everyone else in that society over as well.
We as a society should rationally be thinking about stopping immigration, expelling troublemakers, etc, but of course if the inbreeders are gaining power, they'll never allow it, since they benefit too much.
gee, "time horizon" is simply a proxy for "g" ..."IQ" is a somewhat more accurate proxy for "g." if ability/"g" was allowed in the political discussion it would be a game changer. "education level" is also a rough proxy of "g." people cry about IQ tests, but those tests take reading & writing out of the mix - to try to be more fair (!) if you want to throw out IQ, then how well folks do in school is a rough less accurate version of it all. tough. -- panjoomby
David: Not sure how family tree structures are different from connected data structures with names in computer science or network/graphs in mathematics, both fields excelled by men.
The feminine quality in question would seem to be more like a wholistic understanding of the subject's daily life and relationships, as opposed to decomposing dates and times and lineages.
"and even perhaps genetic differences that flow from the cultural differences),"
You mean cultural differences that flow fro genetic differences?
It's very unfortunate that "HBD" has gotten such a high profile in a movement that is trying to assert American sovereignty and defend the country from invasion. It is a divisive and counterproductive concept. It's a shame that this is coming to be the product of Steve's life work, rather than "citizenism."
What does "HBD" get us?
Often times, masculinity is cited as an explanation of the disproportionate number of Black male-White female and White male-Asian female pairings. I suppose that it makes sense and I never really challenged it.
There's assortive mating. Dummies marry dummies, smarties marry smarties. And pathological relationships to parents; in healthy families, parents imprint positively on their children, in unhealthy families, they imprint negatively, so healthy children chase mates like their parents, while unhealthy children flee them.
@steve - anonymous said: "I had no interest in that movie till you said that - will watch it now."
yeah. i guess i'm gonna have to watch it now, too. (^_^)
@portlander - "Haha. I was able to wrap my brain around my wife's sizeable extended family once I brought my 3D spatial reasoning to bear. I could never remember how anyone was related, but after it somehow became a topology problem to me: piece of cake.... [B]ut once I'm able to put them on their branch, presto, I know who I'm talking to!"
i picture all these relationships on a 3D tree, too. i wouldn't be able figure it all out otherwise! mind you, i do the best on the 3D mental rotation part of iq tests (and by "iq tests" i mean the cheesy ones that you find online) -- iow, i am a visual thinker. i need everything drawn out in nice pictures. (~_^)
@david - "And when it comes to 'first removed,' 'second removed,' REALLY forget it."
oh, that's easy! your first cousin-once-removed is just your first cousin in the generation up or down from yours. so, your first cousins' kids are your first cousins-once-removed. in the other direction, your parents' first cousins are also your first cousins-once-removed.
twice-removed is just another generation away (e.g. the kids of your first cousins-once-removed), and so on and so forth.
of course, you have to know who your first cousins are to start with. (~_^)
(note: you can also have second cousins-once-removed, etc., etc....)
@david - "To say it once more, (average) men and (average) women really ARE different."
yup.
@david - "But how much of this difference in ability/interest regarding family relations is sex-based and how much culture-based?"
yes, there could be something there, too. my own background is quite "clannish." for instance, i know all my cousins out to and including my second cousins (i've got 52 first cousins, btw -- i'm not even sure how many second cousins i have...), and i've met about half of my second cousins-once-removed, although i don't know them (nor most of my second cousins) very well. but i have met them and hear news about them on the family grapevines (i.e. both sides).
@dahlia - "...it's very refreshing to have the perspective of a female quant...."
oooo, i don't think i'm all that quanty at all. or, rather, i wish i were more of a quant blogger (i.e. had the capabilities to be one!). the female blogger behind the bad data, bad! blog -- now THERE'S a girl who can work with numbers! (^_^)
@dahlia - "HBD Chick, perhaps you may NOT want to engage my favorite topic after all; in my experience, no other subject clears out readers faster, Steveosphere included!"
cooties! (~_^)
actually, there was some amount of interest in my stds and miiiind control post, a side of germies that i find interesting, i.e. that they can affect their hosts' behaviors. now THAT'S cool!
@abe l - "[T]he important thing is less about whether that behavior can be justified through an explanation, its whether or not it exists, and if so how people should be thinking on a national level about dealing with it.
We may know the reasons for why someone does something, but nevertheless, we need to protect ourselves from it."
absolutely. don't get me wrong -- i'm not interesting in justifying any human behavior. i just want to know how it all works -- and then we can take it from there and decide what, if anything, needs to be fixed -- eg. what i think is the problem that long-term inbreeders tend to be nepotistic, corrupt, etc., etc. (all things that steve pointed out long ago, of course).
@shawn - "You mean cultural differences that flow fro genetic differences?"
(^_^)
HBD is knowledge. Knowledge is good.
It lets us make decisions that will guide the future of our society. HBD Denial has resulted in bad decisions that have brought no end of problems.
>how family tree structures are different from connected data structures with names in computer science or network/graphs in mathematics<
Theory: the perceived usefulness of the data has something to do with one's motivation to learn it. Men see computer science or the like as a field of action in which they can build and accomplish something by direct personal effort. Women see their family structures similarly: as something they were/are directly involved in creating. In the latter structures, while men may care (and of course many bad dads don't), men have the interest of a sperm donor or (metaphor) venture capitalist as contrasted to the interest of a birth-giver (an entrepreneur who receives an investment). The venture capitalist has a crucial interest in the enterprise, but it really ain't the exact level of interest in the nuts and bolts which the entrepreneur has. This theory was free, so don't complain.
hdb c: thanks for the clear explanation. I understood it perfectly for three minutes. ;) Thankfully, there are bright readers here and it likely helped them.
"What does "HBD" get us?"
An understanding of human behavior and a method of adapting it.
.
"As the only female Best Director Oscar winner ever, Kathryn Bigelow's opinions on male/female differences are worth paying attention to...But practically nobody else is going to articulate in words what her movies show."
Will have to watch the lot then.
I consider the male femalle relationship in reproduction to be like the McDonalds sweepstakes. McDonalds puts a sticker on food item conntainers that you peel off to cover a Monopoly board. There are millions of all the pieces except a few which exist only in the quantity McDonalds wants to pay off awards on.
Sperm is the common giveaway piece. There are oceans of sperm out there. It isn't precious. Eggs-and uterus time and the traditional pain and risk of giving birth-are the rare game pieces.
really glad you linked this, Steve. I haven't read a lot of hbd chick but I have to correct that asap. wow knowledge bombs have been dropped.
It's very unfortunate that "HBD" has gotten such a high profile in a movement that is trying to assert American sovereignty and defend the country from invasion. It is a divisive and counterproductive concept.
Why is enlightenment about Human Biological Diversity divisive and counterproductive?
Please explain.
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