Michael Vick, who has long been the ultimate in NFL black athlete quarterbacks -- an incredibly fast runner with a strong arm -- has gotten another $5 million contract to play back up for the NY Jets, a half decade after he served 18 months in prison for running a dog fighting ring on his property.
I've always thought Vick was a sort of symbolic sacrificial victim for white America's discomfort with its black athletic heroes. In Vick's rather backward Southern rural culture, dogfighting was considered sporting and glamorous, just as bullfighting in Spain seemed sporting and glamorous to Hemingway 90 years ago. So Vick saw himself not as some evil person, but as a sportsman take a sporting interest in the sport of dogfighting.
The real reasons whites have for resenting black football players all sound like racist stereotypes -- their lack of preparation for being college students, their high rates of sexual assault on white coeds, their tendency to beat up nerds, their unfortunate rates of sticky fingers around other students' electronic entertainment devices, and so forth -- so those are largely unmentionable in polite society. For whites to get furiously mad at a black jock over dogfighting, however, doesn't sound racist, so a lot of white anger at black athletes in general was focused upon Vick.
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Through a kind of odd set of circumstances, I once visited with a group of ex-NFL'ers. It is gladiator culture, through and through. It reminded me of prison culture, which I've also encountered here and there. Which is to say, it's a culture generated by physically dominant men, most of them black.
The jock-sniffing set who don't personally make their living through physical violence don't understand it, so when something like Vick's dogfighting or Richie Incognito's hazing bubbles up, everybody is shocked and appalled. Hazing! Dogfighting! Well I never ...
What I find intriguing is the counter-factual of how much tribal energy football must be bleeding off. I bet if it weren't for football, there'd be a hundred nation-states on the American continent. "Georgia vs. Florida" would be something entirely different.
This reads like it could've come from Slate, which is one of the worst insults I can think of. The far likelier explanation here is that a lot of whites love dogs and are genuinely disgusted by things like dogfighting rings.
Dogfighting isn't a "rural Southern" thing, either.
"their high rates of sexual assault on white coeds"
You can delude yourself if you want. Black athletes don't have to 'sexually assault' white coeds in order to get some, if truth be told.
anonymousse
Steve:"For whites to get furiously mad at a black jock over dogfighting, however, doesn't sound racist, so a lot of white anger at black athletes in general was focused upon Vick."
Some points to bear in mind:
1. White Anglos really, really, really love dogs. Hence, hatred towards someone engaging in the vile "sport" of dog-fighting seems quite natural.
2. Vick is actually very lucky to be Black. Had a White NFL player of similar stature been caught brutalizing dogs in such a manner, his career would have been over. Vick's Blackness allowed him to stage a comeback, said comeback being fueled by a combination of White liberal guilt (hatred towards a Black man, however deserved, is very hard for White liberals to sustain) and Black support for one of their own (plus a little assist from the fact that Blacks seem a little less pro-dogs than Whites).
I grew up not far from where Vick was raised. "Backward rural culture" is laughably wrong. Newport News is about as rural as San Diego. Further, dog fighting has never been "sporting and glamorous" in the south. The whole dog fighting thing is an urban black thing spread by gang bangers and hip-hop. Go into any of our urban ghettos and you'll find corner buys with pit bulls.
In a sane world you'd still have Spartans and Helots. And that system was completely crazy too. America is a such a mess.
He seems to be a sadistic, mean individual who is supposed to have personally hanged or drowned dogs that underperformed. Dog fighting is a cruel and bloody activity that reflects badly on the mentality of those involved. He knew it was against the law but went ahead and did it anyway. His pretended contrition for it was probably scripted for him by some lawyers assigned to salvage his image, seeing as he's such a valuable commodity. According to Wiki he's been implicated as a steroid user, stereotypically declared bankruptcy even after earning many millions and was sued by a woman for spreading an STD to her. Great guy.
And of course whites are notable for adoring dogs. SWPLs especially (despite their keeness for dog genocide, betraying the typical misunderstanding of darwinian evolution of that group). Hence their displeasure with Mr. Vick.
I think you might be wrong here. I think many people just thought it was beyond the pale that a highly paid individual would engage in a recreation where dogs (man's best friend) are killed or seriously injured. The whole thing was revolting. It's completely outside the bounds of civilized society.
My Facebook exploded with outrage against the Jets for hiring Vick, replete with multiple photos of dogs chewing Vick toys (so raciss).
Of course no such outrage would have erupted were Vick accused of, say, raping a bunch of white women. That would be 'aight.
It is comforting to know that at least in one area Progressives are prepared to get angry with blacks. Though the persistent penchant that Mexicans show for animal fighting and abuse doesn't seem to raise to the level of an anti-immigration argument. Nor are the chattering class terribly upset with Asians who devastate animal life on a global basis. They continue to pour in unchecked.
In Vick's rather backward Southern rural culture, dogfighting was considered sporting and glamorous, just as bullfighting in Spain seemed sporting and glamorous to Hemingway 90 years ago.
1. Dog fighting in the US = illegal.
Bullfighting in Spain 90 years ago = legal.
2. Americans eat cattle, Americans don't eat dogs. Bulls = food and leather goods. Dogs = friends and surrogate children.
3. There isn't all that much White resentment for black athletes as you like to believe. White guys like you and others in the right of center bloggosphere are not typical of White America's feelings towards blacks in general or black athletes in particular.
4. Black athletes are more likely to be worshiped than resented. Whether that's White women's sexual favoring of them, from high school through the pro ranks, or the White males' near homo-erotic admiration for them.
5. If Michael Vick worked off season at a slaughter house or meat processing plant at most only PETA would complain.
6. Leave America's dogs alone. Eat all the hamburgers and wear all the leather jackets you want.
I don't think I buy that explanation. This country is pet crazy and treating dogs like that will get a lot of people up in arms about it. I think any player would have been hammered for running a dog fighting ring.
Now, I think whites are resistant to less cerebral quarterbacks because it is one of the last positions in football dominated by whites. Other than offensive lineman, other positions are predominately black. The NFL should worry about becoming NBA'ized and as such marginalized by the larger culture. I think you can see that with the sudden concern about concussions and injuries.
On a side note, I think Vic has gotten his life back together better than most.
Here is a footnote exemplifying white sentimentalists bad judgment(refers to Vick), to me more of the feminizing of white America:
http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/31-year-summary-chart-pit-bull-attack-trends.pdf
Steve - this also shows up when some black athlete expresses disapproval of homosexuality. The sportswriters (is there a more Pavlovian bunch of liberal twits than sportswriters?) all act with faux outrage that they people they spend their lives writing about don't have SWPL-approved views on sodomy.
SWPL women just don't like dogfighting.
When Vick brought it existence to the mainstream, they were shocked and appalled. I don't think most of them even knew who Vick was.
Yup. It's like when people get angry at illegals for hurting animals. Sure, it's upsetting, but they also hurt, y'know, real life human beings.
There is a lot of truth to what you have written here.
Same with OJ to some degree; after the whole OJ fiasco, which was arguably THE news story for over a year, the press tried to get the proletariat interested in the Robert Blake / Phil Spector murders, but white people weren't, the general attitude, from what I recolect was; "well so what, a white guy has a right to kill a white woman." Paraphrased, of course.
"What I find intriguing is the counter-factual of how much tribal energy football must be bleeding off. I bet if it weren't for football, there'd be a hundred nation-states on the American continent. "Georgia vs. Florida" would be something entirely different."
Your'e absolutely right, Daniel-san, but have you made the leap in intellect where you believe that this is not accidental, yet?
They went to the pound and got dogs, then clubbed them to death.
The level of brutality was indescribable.
Kind of like the tension between warriors and polite society: nice to have around at certain times, but not one to hang around with.
I'm interested in the aesthetics behind the movie "Real Steel" (robot boxing). As machines do more and more of the work of society, will they intrude in the sporting world; akin to how auto racing displaced foot racing?
Vick's exposure to dog-fighting is not from his supposed Southern rural culture; it's from his urban black culture. The area of Newport News in which Vick grew up is a typical "concrete jungle" with very little square footage that isn't paved. It bears little cultural resemblance to rural Southern areas.
Dogfighting by Vick without mentioning his stringing up his losing dogs with wire so he could torture them to death misses the truth of his offense. This past season, after regaining his roster position he made a statement to keep Foles as quarterback as long as he could do the job. This showed me he was a professional, along the lines of Simms when his qb position was up in the air.
I don't watch football. I watch the Jets. This is obviously a path leading to Vicks final retirement, yet I wish him good luck.
The White dislike for Vick was less about the brutality he showed towards the dogs than for his full-blown embrace of ghetto culture. The large sums of money he made as a franchise QB was out of step with his off-field behavior, and fans felt he was thumbing his nose at civilized norms. He was viewed as biting the had that fed.
The hiring of Vick and the outlandish contract extension Philadelphia gave him was little more than a PR overture towards black America. He was already past his prime and never showed much talent for in winning in the playoffs. Vick washed out in Philly as I predicted after having his finances restored. The vast majority of irate White fans eventually got over it, so there wasn't much downside for Philly hiring Vick. He was just another over-paid and under-performing athlete.
A tongue-in-cheek essay, I hope.
One correction Steve. They don't just beat up nerds. You might have the best gash on campus, and be a fine athlete yourself, say a member of the tennis team, and they'll still knock you out from behind if they sniff any disrespect.
I think you're right Steve, the venom spewed towards Mike Vick seemed like a manifestation of racism on the part of the liberal media.
A large fine would have sufficed to grab his attention not prison time which the media agitated for.
" their tendency to beat up nerds"
That's not a black thing.
Serbian basketball player Miladin Kovacevic finally behind bars for near-fatal beating of student
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/serbian-basketball-player-miladin-kovacevic-finally-behind-bars-near-fatal-beating-student-article-1.152732
I had always chalked it up to how dogs are more important than people nowadays:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/17/dog-lovers-campaign-to-save-phoenix-pit-bull-who-mauled-4-year-old/
You're waaaay over-thinking this. A lot of people have pet dogs, and really love their pet dogs, and regard cruelty to dogs as essentially the same as cruelty towards children.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
The late Michael Crichton included a very interesting exploration of Victorian English dog-fighting sports in his historical novel The Great Train Robbery (which Crichton later made into a good film with Sean Connery and Donald Sutherland, though of course all his omniscient narrator's discourse on dog-fighting had to be omitted from the movie).
I thought it was overly harsh.
However, per Pet Owner Mag, "Just who are you sleeping with right now?.... One recent survey found that about half of all dog owners allow their dogs to sleep on the bed with them."
Back in the day, there were things called dog houses. And out of all these pet owners, it would be logical to think that some of them have Michael Jacksonish relationships with their animals-- a question no one really wants to overthink.
Vick stepped on a barely visible third rail with this. Not to mention that labeling the crime and dispensing punishment was done by people with little to no idea of just how ethnocentric and culturally invalidating their actions were.
Malcom Gladwell has based his anti football arguments using Vick and the parallelism of Pro Football and dog fighting. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/10/19/091019fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all Personally, I would prefer to decriminalize dog fighting than ban football.
it's balderdash to limit it to highschool-esque slights (eg "they took my girlfriend!") I think a lot of it has to do with the notion of a merit based class system in general.
"I had to take two semesters of ball-breaking Organic Chemistry to get this 300k dentist job and that dumb bastard gets 300k in 15 minutes playing a kid's game!"
upsetting the Economic Hierarchy is a sin most won't forgive
Sorry Steve, you're just missing the point. People feel REALLY strongly about dogs. There isn't much else to it.
I read the headline for this article as "Michael York" rather than "Michael Vick". I bet those two guys get confused for one another all the time.
For whites to get furiously mad at a black jock over dogfighting, however, doesn't sound racist, so a lot of white anger at black athletes in general was focused upon Vick.
Yeah, that's got to be it. What other explanation could their be for all the white football players who've been caught red-headed up to their elbows in dog blood and nobody's bothered at all by it.
Is Steve Gentile?
If not he doesn't understand how the North Western European views dogs.
Mess with Horse Meat or beat a Dog and blondie gets ANGRY
Whites fund professional athletic competition.
I worked at the UCLA ticket office for years and donors will pay tens of thousands for tickets to an NCAA game.
Horse feathers!
Whites put these dolts up as gods.
Vick was just a sadist. No he is a sadist.
I don't think the reaction would have been much different had Vick been white. Remember that it wasn't just dog-fighting; the charges included strangling, drowning, and electrocuting dogs that didn't fight well. It's like they went out of their way to be cruel, which is what really upset people. I had great-uncles who fought their dogs (and roosters) when they were young, so that in itself wouldn't have been that big a deal.
Anyone who works with animals knows sometimes you have to put one down, but you do it with a bullet or (with a small enough animal) one heavy blow. You don't say, "Hey, let's throw it in this barrel of water with a plugged-in toaster and see what happens."
Yes, white people love dogs, and dogfighting is a messy business. Many dogs end up disabled or permenantly hurt by it, and its disgusting to put ignorant animals into such hardship merely for entertainment.
btw, whats the rates of spinal injuries, multiple concussions, and long term neurological damage in NFL quarterbacks and heavyweight prizefighters?
Dogfighting isn't a "rural Southern" thing, either.
The oldest and most "illustrious" line of fighting Pit Bulls was established by John Colby of Massachusetts:
http://cravendesires.blogspot.com/2010/05/john-p-colby-fountainhead-of-american.html
I remember when the investigation and trial in the Vick/dogfight matter was going on, some other black NFL players came out and said that a lot of black players do what Vick did.
At first I thought that he (and I don't remember who it was) was lying, and like Adam Sandler in Billy Madison, pouring cold water over his crotch to distract from and the save the face of his best friend in the third grade who did pee in his pants accidentally. IOW, why would Vick's colleagues say they do dogfighting when that would only lead to cops knocking on their door? I thought they were just saying that to defend Vick or to make what he did seem less bad.
The more time went on, the more I came to the conclusion that he was actually telling the truth.
"Sorry Steve, you're just missing the point. People feel REALLY strongly about dogs."
Right. The Russians got heat for their culling of stray dogs during the winter Olympics.
Truth,
"Same with OJ to some degree"
Come on. OJ was beloved for years after his football career, as a corporate spokesman, comedic actor, etc. No one had a problem with him marrying a white woman. They just had a problem with him brutally murdering her and getting away with it due to spurious accusations of racism.
Granted, there was a time when black athletes dating white women wasn't socially accepted. But it was well before OJ's time.
Dogs are more important than people to me.
Some people.
Gordo
Come on. OJ was beloved for years after his football career, as a corporate spokesman, comedic actor, etc. No one had a problem with him marrying a white woman.
Black women did, evidently, or are you saying they're "no one"?
"ethnocentric and culturally invalidating" -- a culture that would endorse this sadistic s**t deserves to be "invalidated", just as halal slaughter deserves to be banned and punished.
I happen to be Hungarian and if someone tortured dogs like that in Hungary, he would be lynched, race utterly irrelevant.
> This reads like it could've come from Slate, which is one of the worst insults I can think of. The far likelier explanation here is that a lot of whites love dogs and are genuinely disgusted by things like dogfighting rings.
I can see both sides of the Vick question and your response to Sailer's piece.
Since I can see both sides I conclude Vick was over-punished.
As for Sailer bringing up hidden psychological motives, well the latter are very problematic. On the one hand they are very important, on the other they are very easy to BS about and everyone loves doing so. I'm not too sure Sailer isn't right about this though.
You know, a lot of White people who love dogs, love hunting dogs who tear wild animal prey limb from limb. I know such a person, incidentally Southern. A friend found this pretty disgusting : I pointed out how as kids we used to love feeding live crickets to mantises. Probably did it a hundred times. I liked setting up mantises where they would cross paths with wasps nesting behind the vinyl siding. So we two are three alleles less barbaric than my buddy, I said, who is about 99 alleles less barbaric than people who went to gladiator shows once a week. Big deal.
In the end I am solidly on the side of cruelty sports like bullfighting or foxhunting. These are ceremonies that heighten and cultivate the masculine side of man. But of course there is also something 'bad' in them. They should be very restrained and girt-around, culturally. A bullfight should have considerable solemnity, and not be frequent. I don't know anything about NFL or Black dogfighting culture, but these groups aren't usually the masters of restraint, it seems to me. But what can I say? The only real answer would be a humanistic eugenesis movement (one that allowed everyone to at least have one child) that would gradually elevate all races and peoples, in concert with cultural renaissance. There are few real and unambiguous improvements to be made to human life on a statogenic basis, and on a dysgenic basis there are none, to put it very mildly.
@ Don't think ....
It's mostly the brain damage that is the current issue. It is more or less assumed that former NFL stars with be partially crippled.
Among prize fighters, people throw around the 20% figure for brain injuries. It may be twice that, since no one is bothering to do extensive autopsies.
Pro football? Quarterbacks, maybe not so much. Linemen, linebackers, &c, maybe as high as boxers.
The pros? They are adults are are well compensated.
College players -- maybe the rates are much lower, but they get effectively no compensation.
The one argument I have never heard, but thought about, is that every NFL player probably trashed dozens of high school and college players on their journey to the top.
Check out Jadeveon Clowney's big hit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC44nP7ClxM
I think the SWPLers were genuinely outraged, but like one of the anonymous posters said, it is very hard for SWPLers to sustain anger against a black person for any length of time. Also remember a lot of the broadcast sports media ( Which until recently consisted entirely of ESPN ) has a lot of former jocks, and a lot of them of are black and they were almost without exception clamoring for Vick's public rehabilitation from the moment he signed with the Eagles. I can't recall even one former black athlete on TV that wasn't pushing for Vick to be given " A second chance ", even though the guy had multiple chances blown with the Falcons before the dogfighting allegations hit the fan. The other stuff he did: The Ron Mexico incident, the flipping off of home fans, trying to smuggle weed through an international airport and getting coach after coach fired because he wasn't always trying didn't count apparently.
>> Yes, white people love dogs, and dogfighting is a messy business. Many dogs end up disabled or permenantly hurt by it, and its disgusting to put ignorant animals into such hardship merely for entertainment. btw, whats the rates of spinal injuries, multiple concussions, and long term neurological damage in NFL quarterbacks and heavyweight prizefighters?
> I don't think the reaction would have been much different had Vick been white. Remember that it wasn't just dog-fighting; the charges included strangling, drowning, and electrocuting dogs that didn't fight well. It's like they went out of their way to be cruel
These seem like the two decisive points on this. I would have to know more, though. While pit bulls have a very beefy neck, I know a strangled human is unconscious in about 10 seconds. Basically non-torture. Airway closure is not even relevant ; rather, the circulation is quite easily closed off (at least in man), and then it's lights out. (However, I don't wish to give the impression that this is a safe experiment ; it might rupture capillaries in the brain for all I know, and it sometimes stops the heart.)
If electrocuted hard, I think you are done, but I'm not sure. Obviously if it's not juice enough that you are out a light, then it is very grave torture. Drowning is probably heavy torture -- I think that because of all the oxygen present in the circulation, awareness may last a deal longer than with strangulation. A few times I was tempted to drown a captured mouse or rat, but I sacked up and crushed their heads. (Along with the rest, but obviously the head is the point if you are trying to be humane.)
I would never deny a bull in a bullfight is badly tortured, but see my above comment for my outlook.
> I pointed out how as kids we used to love feeding live crickets to mantises. Probably did it a hundred times. I liked setting up mantises where they would cross paths with wasps nesting behind the vinyl siding.
In case you were scientifically curious, these were elongate brown wasps (not big purple mud daubers but same shape), and mantises seemed well 'aware' that they were no butterflies. Typically they hung on and ate em, but if they wound up with a precarious hold, they would bail. They would also strike a little charily in the first place.
That was the theory behind the prosecution's jury selection. We know how that turned out.
Anonymousse wrote
"You can delude yourself if you want. Black athletes don't have to 'sexually assault' white coeds in order to get some, if truth be told."
Then why do they at such a high rate?
Dan in DC
And honestly- desirable white women just don't go for black dudes. Even Russell Wilson's girl is a is about a 7 or 8.
For both O.J. and Vick, it was the pressure of being a successful black man in America. Ha!
I happen to be Hungarian and if someone tortured dogs like that in Hungary, he would be lynched, race utterly irrelevant.
I'm dubious, but that's the most encouraging thing I've heard about
a human population in a long time.
Vick is typical of Black guys who exhibit great, sadistic cruelty to animals. He was in court records convicted of body slamming to death a female dog who did not fight enough. He also personally strangled, drowned, and beat to death other dogs. He laughed as a family pet was torn apart in a dog fight.
That's Michael Vick. And I submit, a great many Black guys. Most even.
And the ugly thing is, that's just the sort of guy that appeals broadly to women. No one ever went broke underestimating the female appetite for cruelty and sadism.
And no, Black dysfunction in athletics is becoming IMHO less and less tolerable by Whites, who are indeed from another planet in their treatment and desire to have companionship with animals, literacy, etc.
What exactly do White fans have in common with a guy like C.J. Sproles, Wonderlic of 4, IQ of 68?
Did dogfighting really seem sporting and glamorous in the poor south? Genuine question - but I'd be a bit surprised if it did.
Dogs have been bred for thousands of years to be the companions of humans and to look up to, trust and depend on them. Making them tear each other to pieces is a betrayal on multiple levels - as well as objectively hideous.
Essentially, people who indulge in the practice are scum.
Steve goes out of his way to give people the benefit of the doubt and see the best in them, which in many ways is a highly admirable quality. But... come on.
Long term, I don't think the NFL can keep its money machine going with an 85% Black Athlete composition. There is just too much space and distance, the NFL (and College Ball) will become another NBA. A minor, ghetto sport.
Contrast say, NASCAR, Golf, various motor sports growing in popularity, you get a picture of an NFL trapped in the US, unable to get global revenues, and lacking the big money that makes them so valuable -- getting stadium loans/free land from cities played off against each other.
That LA has told the NFL to go away has not been lost on anyone.
If not he doesn't understand how the North Western European views dogs.
Mess with Horse Meat or beat a Dog and blondie gets ANGRY
Dog fighting as well as bear and bull baiting were popular in the UK not too long ago.
Horse meat was popular throughout Europe, including much of North Western Europe.
Cat burning was popular in France and other parts of Europe until quite recently.
"Black athletes are more likely to be worshiped than resented. Whether that's White women's sexual favoring of them, from high school through the pro ranks, or the White males' near homo-erotic admiration for them.
"
Nope--football players are indeed, regardless of color, "meat on the hoof."
Truth said, "Same with OJ to some degree; after the whole OJ fiasco, which was arguably THE news story for over a year, the press tried to get the proletariat interested in the Robert Blake / Phil Spector murders, but white people weren't, the general attitude, from what I recolect was; "well so what, a white guy has a right to kill a white woman."
NOpe, not the same. The public didn't have the visuals of the Bronco chase.
Dogs have been bred for thousands of years to be the companions of humans and to look up to, trust and depend on them. Making them tear each other to pieces is a betrayal on multiple levels - as well as objectively hideous.
Umm you do realize why bulldogs are called bulldogs, don't you? It's not because they were supposed to look like bulls...
They're called bulldogs because they were bred for bull-baiting, a bloodsport in which several dogs were pitted against a mad bull to take the bull down, with many of the dogs often being killed and severely maimed in the fight. They were originally bred for fighting bulls and each other.
Jacco Macacco was a famous fighting monkey in early 19th century London who had a very successful record fighting against dogs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacco_Macacco
If not he doesn't understand how the North Western European views dogs.
Bloodsports involving dogs and other animals were very popular in the UK when they were banned by Parliament in the 1830s.
Black athletes don't have to 'sexually assault' white coeds in order to get some, if truth be told.
They dont have to - but they do anyway.
Dog fighting is a rural Southern black thing.
Dogfighting has been a predominant southern thang, especially among the white underclass.
This "sport" embodies strength, aggression, competition, and striving for success. By embodying these traits, a man can gain honor and status in his society.
Of course, the southron, having limited opportunities to validate his masculinity, sought this wretched recourse.
The Bible commands us to take care of the animals under our care. One of the signs of a righteous man, the Bible says, is that he takes care of his animals (see Proverbs 12:10)
It was not racism, nor the "librul media" that put Vick behind bars, but good old-fashioned vice on his part.
He, like everyone else here, will be judged.
Michael Vick is an absolutely disgusting person. What he did to those dogs was horrific. A lot of people don't know all the awful details (dogs were tortured, hanged, electrocuted, etc). Had he been white he would have been finished as an athlete and a social pariah for life. But he gets a pass because he is black. By the way, dogfighting is not a "rural white southern thing". If anything the OPPOSITE is much closer to the truth. It is far more likely to be urban black.
Anonymous - yes I am fully aware of the origin and purpose of bulldogs (fighting bulls, by the way, not each other particularly).
The breeding of dogs for the purpose of fighting each other is IMO part of the betrayal, ancient though it may be.
Dog fighting is so yesterday. Ratting, now, that's the future!
Steve, you mean consummate, not ultimate
JoeJoe
"Come on. OJ was beloved for years after his football career, as a corporate spokesman, comedic actor, etc. No one had a problem with him marrying a white woman.
Including you? (Hint: Think hard about your future on this board before you answer - trust me on this one.)
"They just had a problem with him brutally murdering her and getting away with it due to spurious accusations of racism."
The cops planted evidenced and basically admitted to being racists. This is not spurious.
"Granted, there was a time when black athletes dating white women wasn't socially accepted. But it was well before OJ's time."
OJ's "time" was roughly ten years after the Civil Rights act was signed, the act that basically avowed that we were human beings, in America. Coincidentally, Oj's time coincided very closely with that of Phil Spector and Robert Blake.
Jacco Maccaco, that's great. Perhaps where Hunter S. Thompson got the idea for the penultimate chapter of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/07/hunter-s-thompson-on-apes.html
The breeding of dogs for the purpose of fighting each other is IMO part of the betrayal, ancient though it may be.
Betrayal of what exactly? You're projecting contemporary sentiments to a much different past. Dogs weren't the pampered houseguests that they are today.
Dogfighting used to be white dominated in the US. Social engineering and deliberate policy decisions lessened it in the white population, as part of making whites tamer and less violent. The black population was never subject to this kind of social engineering. Those policies and programming, and not anything innate, are the reasons for many of the differences between the races.
That was the theory behind the prosecution's jury selection.
If so, it was perfectly in accordance with observable reality, merely failing to account for the jurors A: being women and therefore hating Nicole Brown more than they resented Simpson, and B: being black Americans, and therefore generally inclined to excuse incidences of wrongdoing on the part of their co-ethnics in cases of criminal law, as in the Martin-Zimmerman affair.
Not even the most inbred backward Southern hick has ever been into dog fighting. Never heard of it until Michael Vick. Heard of chicken fighting amongst Mexicans before that, but dog was new to me.
"Did dogfighting really seem sporting and glamorous in the poor south? Genuine question - but I'd be a bit surprised if it did."
No, your intuition is correct. No citations have been given.
The classics like "The Yearling" and "Old Yeller" give an accurate idea of the relationship and regard animals were held under by Southerners. Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings is especially recommended as she was an intelligent Mid-Atlantic transplant to the rural South who was as much a chronicler as a fiction writer.
Dogs have been bred for thousands of years to be the companions of humans and to look up to, trust and depend on them.
Dogs have also been bred and trained for thousands of years to detect, track, and attack other animals and humans. Police dogs -- "tactical dogs" -- are still trained to do such.
Reading histories of white pioneers in the southeastern USA, one will find anecdotes about letting the hounds loose to attack prowling or attacking Native Americans.
Q. Is dogfighting part of rural Southern Kultur?
A. Dogfighting was part of rural Southern life generations ago. It is now extinct among whites, as is dueling and violent feuds between clans.
It is a commonplace premise that today's inner city black folk have retained some of the folkways of Southern American whites of long ago, such as touchiness about being "disrepected," and a taste for violence.
////////////////
All you peepul boo-hooing about dog fighting: I take it that aborting human babies also makes you sad.
"A. Dogfighting was part of rural Southern life generations ago. It is now extinct among whites, as is dueling and violent feuds between clans."
Is there a cite for this from any fictional or nonfictional source original to the time or shortly thereafter? Any cite at all, even modern, to a credible source? I don't ever recall hearing about dogfighting, in person, folkloric stories, news, etc., in the South even to hear it being dismissed.
Michael Vick publicly came to Riley Cooper's defense after a video where the white Cooper threatened to fight every "n*****" at a concert surfaced.
Perhaps Vick knew he had no room to criticize another player, but the charitable side of me hopes that, after his rehabilitation and mentoring with Tony Dungy, he changed and learned the value of forgiveness.
You mean black southerners.
That's it with you pricks, blame it on some residual southern characteristic, then people think of Bo and Luke Hazzard.
The trouble is it's actual Deshawn and Shantee
I've actually seen Halal done and it is an agonizing bleed out. Not swift at all. Where do you get your info?
Banned in the 1830s to public acclaim.
Do you remember Commissioner Thick Mick McCarthy blaming a 50 murder weekend in Chicago on on the Puritans?
Yeah, dog fighting in the south is a bit like that. Blame it on the Plantation Owner maintainin' hzzoner with duelling pistols.
Yeah yeah yeah, sure Howard Zinn, it's learned from Ulster Scot Planters.
Dog fighting should not be illegal. Allowing one's dog to run free in public without a leash should be punishable with 5 years in prison.
This is one of the few times I have read you steve and thought wow that was a wiff.
In my white liberal suburban community, I meet many many people who are extremely concerned with dog welfare very few who have any sort of racial sympathies at all beyond think white people should stop being so mean to not white people.
I am pretty sure people hate vick because her tortured dogs. You have seen the pictures of what he did to those dogs right?
"Including you? (Hint: Think hard about your future on this board before you answer - trust me on this one.)"
I thought OJ was funny in the Naked Gun movies and that he seemed like an amiable guy. I didn't know who he was married to until he was arrested for double murder, but had I known earlier, I wouldn't have cared one way or the other.
"The cops planted evidenced and basically admitted to being racists. This is not spurious."
Which cops admitted to being racist? IIRC, Furhman maintained he wasn't one. And is your contention that OJ was not guilty?
In OJ's time, I don't recall anyone (other than, perhaps, some black women) making an issue of his wife's race.
"And honestly- desirable white women just don't go for black dudes. Even Russell Wilson's girl is a is about a 7 or 8. "
And Russell Wilson is just about the "whitest" black guy you'll find.
Next to climate change there is no cause so elastic as animal rights. You can drape it over anything. It's high concept--even when followed to its particular logical conclusion, i.e. privileging cats & puppies over humans, everybody else still gives your derangement a wide berth.
I thought OJ was funny in the Naked Gun movies and that he seemed like an amiable guy. I didn't know who he was married to until he was arrested for double murder, but had I known earlier, I wouldn't have cared one way or the other.
I probably wouldn't have either, but in my defence, I was young and very foolish then...
I'm a dog-lover and was outraged by Vicks. I'd never even heard of him before that. I don't care if he is black, white, or purple with pink polka dots, he is a monstrous psychopath for abusing those dogs.
" In Vick's rather backward Southern rural culture, dogfighting was considered sporting and glamorous, just as bullfighting in Spain seemed sporting and glamorous to Hemingway 90 years ago."
-What nonsense is this? Dog fighting isn't a 'Southern' thing, not sure where the hell that idea came from. Just because Vick is from VA, that doesn't make everything he does a 'Southern thing', just like Richard Ramirez isn't representative of Californians. If anything dog fighting is a brown thing, linked to black and hispanic gangs.
For the record, Vick is also from Newport News, VA, an urban city with a sizeable black population, hardly anything that would be called 'rural'.
"just like Richard Ramirez isn't representative of Californians."
Next you're going to be telling us that Charles Manson isn't representative of Californians.
Ramirez, Manson, the Zodiac Killer, they're all part of California history.
As I mentioned before, my (white) great-uncle told me about fighting his dogs right here in the Midwest -- not the South -- when he was young, around the 1930s or so. He also had roosters and did some cockfighting.
It doesn't seem that complicated. Men like to fight and test themselves against each other, in sport if not for real. In places where they own dogs, they're bound to want to see whose dog is the toughest. That's pretty normal. Of course, we're talking about hunting dogs here, at a time when dogs were seen as somewhere between pets and working animals like horses -- they were expected to pull their weight. If you had the toughest dog in the neighborhood, he could put money in your pocket, and gain you respect from your peers, by defeating other dogs.
Now, I don't think there's a lot of similarity between that and Vick's type of dog-fighting, which was being run as a business and all about the fighting. My great-uncle didn't torture his dogs to make them more vicious for fights -- they were still hunting dogs and family dogs, so they couldn't be so fierce that they might attack someone. When you start torturing them and treating them only as fighters with no other value, that's something very different.
We don't have to pretend that white people have always pampered their dogs like many do today to disapprove of the kind of thing Vick was doing.
>> the whole OJ fiasco, which was arguably THE news story for over a year, the press tried to get the proletariat interested in the Robert Blake / Phil Spector murders, but white people weren't, the general attitude, from what I recolect was; "well so what, a white guy has a right to kill a white woman."
> NOpe, not the same. The public didn't have the visuals of the Bronco chase.
Looks like the verdict, widely thought outrageous though I'm no expert on it, was only four months and a few days before the murders. So the killing per se was hot button per se for four months.
I do remember the highway chase, even though I was young and didn't know who Simpson was.
Plus - I have no wish to offend, since I know you are pretty reasonable, Truth, but anyway you aren't thin-skinned - so what? Probably most people are, indeed, somewhat more offended by violence across (their) racial lines. They also tend to marry their own kind, and so on. I -thoroughly- agree that it is a very serious problem when & if it effects due justice (perhaps that's part of what you're getting at), but the phenomenon itself seems natural. I am more troubled by war in a European land than an African one ; they're my people.
"Dave Pinsen said...
I thought OJ was funny in the Naked Gun movies and that he seemed like an amiable guy. I didn't know who he was married to until he was arrested for double murder, but had I known earlier, I wouldn't have cared one way or the other."
If Nicole Brown had cared a little more one way, she might be alive today.
I don't think it gets any more desirable than bona-fide a-list supermodels.
Seriously? What are you, some sort of repressed homosexual?
> I've actually seen Halal done and it is an agonizing bleed out. Not swift at all. Where do you get your info?
A super-clean cut shouldn't hurt too much. I've had minor-to-modest surgical incision and woke in about zero pain. Nor was I high on anything, and I would know. They tried to script me 30 /days/ of dope - I'm hardly indifferent to pain, so I think some surgeons may just cut cleaner than others.
In contrast, bleeding out (hypovolemia) causes heavy dysphoria in man. Dudes like Seneca and Antony wanted to be reposing stoic machos, manifest superiors of their enemies ; in a few minutes they developed a big interest in getting across ASAFP (hot baths, more cuts, etc). And these were half-barbarous people who were probably less sensitive than a lot of people today, though there is no way to ascertain such things even in principle.
"...the press tried to get the proletariat interested in the Robert Blake / Phil Spector murders, but white people weren't, the general attitude, from what I recolect was; "well so what, a white guy has a right to kill a white woman."
Your recollection is actually a figment of your over-active imagination.
> Halal slaughter is aimed at minimizing the animal's pain. A swift deep incision is made directly to the animal's carotid artery.
I don't know how halal and kosher compared to methods available /when they were created/, before you had the stun-gun and the gun-gun.
Strangulation would have been far less cruel if animals are anything like man, but maybe people didn't know that. It was experimentally verified by some guys at some point, though as I emphasized above, it is an unsafe, possibly brain-damaging and definitely sometimes-lethal experiment. Without experiment people might not have known that all the flailing around for several minutes is unconscious (at least in man) after ten seconds.
Anyway, if you're saying it's not extremely painful you're wrong. The cut is probably not bad, but as I said above, bleeding out is (in man) woefully dysphoric.
Actually I just realized I might be wrong. Losing both carotids might cause almost instant unconsciousness. But I'm not sure they are the sole blood supply to the brain.
What does the commenter above, who actually witnessed halal slaughter, think on that point?
Cail said,
"It doesn't seem that complicated. Men like to fight and test themselves against each other, in sport if not for real. In places where they own dogs, they're bound to want to see whose dog is the toughest."
Pretty much what I thought.
And sure, if they have no disgust response, zero empathy, nor any sense of a sacred order. Look, the opposite of Boomer white women cradling their little dogs in baby slings isn't the demonic practice of dog fighting.
BTW, this thread reminds me that Liberals make a huge mistake when they try to bring up some past sin and declare that is was a usual practice in order to defame a group or society. The conservative impulse is to think most everything done in the past is better, ergo, if the bulldog breeder is representative of his society, well there must be something right in the thinking of those people who bred bulldogs.
You know, women have been killed by white ex-lovers too.
Vick always benefited by being black. I watched him stink it up in Atlanta for years. Any white QB with similar stats and lack of success would have been out of the league years ago, and would have never called a future HOFer or had the hype Vick had.
Truth,
Spector and Blake trials weren't a big deal because most people, regardless of race, suspected that both were guilty.
The OJ case had a polarizing effect because the black community fervently believed he was innocent, while the white community generally believed he was guilty. The defense made ample use of the race card to play this up.
Spector and Blake didn't have this benefit. Spector played crazy, and I don't remember what Blake did.
But OJ, at the time, was a far bigger celebrity. He had endorsement deals. He was a football announcer. He was in the Naked Gun movies. Blake was the lead on a show that had been canceled for ~20 years. Spector hadn't done anything meaningful for years. And that makes another difference.
"Looks like the verdict, widely thought outrageous though I'm no expert on it, was only four months and a few days before the murders. So the killing per se was hot button per se for four months."
You mean AFTER the murders? Actually it was 16 months.
"Probably most people are, indeed, somewhat more offended by violence across (their) racial lines."
I agree, I'm not, but I am much different, in a lot of ways, than most people. The problem is when people feel that way, and then try to convice people of the whole "I'm so fair, I see everyone the same way" jazz.
Or, even worse, when they do not admit that they feel the way you opined above, and somehow still are adamant that, say for instance "OJ still got a fair trial, The cops would never plant evidence, etc."
I have no problem with someone saying "I hope that Goddammed N- gets the death penalty for killing that white woman" (paraphrased) as long as they are smart enough to admit that often times, judges, police and prosecutors feel the same way, and that, as you continue to write later, this will create a situation that is unfair in the eyes of the law.
Pit Bull Terriers are an artificial breed DEVELOPED by white Brits and Americans FOR dog fighting. They are, literally Bull Terriers evolved to FIGHT IN PITS. If you look at a true Bull Terrier, you will see the difference in musculature and snout.
"White" people probably have not taken much part in this sport in 50-60 years (Arabs, Armenians still do on the west coast, I've known some.) But that does not exempt them from having created the sport itself, as well as that of cockgight, bear-baiting, etc.
"If Nicole Brown had cared a little more one way, she might be alive today."
Didn't seem to help Natalie Wood, Bonny Lee Blakely, Elizabeth Short, Sharon Tate, Dorothy Stratten, Adrienne Shelley, Dominique Dunne, Reeva Steenkamp, Jasmine Fiore, or Lana Clarkson much.
All you peepul boo-hooing about dog fighting: I take it that aborting human babies also makes you sad.
Another case of Who, Whom?
You know, women have been killed by white ex-lovers too.
Yes, but they're statistically more likely to die at the hands of black ones.
I've actually seen Halal done and it is an agonizing bleed out. Not swift at all. Where do you get your info?
Done properly, the cut is swift and barely perceptible by the animal, and it loses consciousness relatively quickly.
You know, women have been killed by white ex-lovers too.
Of course. But when one gets away with it, other whites don't pump their fists and cheer because he did.
Russell Wilson could've gotten a hotter girl if he married after he won his Superbowl trophy.
It's unlikely he'll leave his wife for a hotter trophy. He's too serious and his head is screwed on too right for him to do that.
Russell Wilson is the whitest black QB you've ever met.
"Does Truth not understand statistics? Does he proudly claim blacks only barely commit more murders than whites? Does he realize blacks only make up 12% of population?"
I? don't? know?, does? he?
These questions to be answered next week, same bat time, same bat channel!
William Blatty in "The Exorcist" has as one of the omens two wild dogs fighting, captured so dramatically in the film immediately, upon the elder priest seeing two figures of the devil.
If Blatty, of unimpeachable conservative and anti-abortion credentials, uses fighting dogs to personify evil, then it's evil.
In the Friedkin's voice over on the director's cut of the Exorcist, he says they starved 2 Iraqi dogs for three days to get them to fight like that over a piece of bread. Today, that Hollywood animal rights org wouldn't allow that.
"My great-uncle didn't torture his dogs to make them more vicious for fights -- they were still hunting dogs and family dogs, so they couldn't be so fierce that they might attack someone."
And you have the audacity to call yourself Christian, Cail?
NO. Dog fighting runs counter to Biblical teachings. Covering for your relative? Despicable.
I think anonymous was just trying to help you as you did sound ignorant of statistics.
And I, doing the same for he, by showing his simplemindedness it's well-earned ridicule.
That's it with you pricks, blame it on some residual southern characteristic, then people think of Bo and Luke Hazzard.
The trouble is it's actual Deshawn and Shantee
///
Yeah, dog fighting in the south is a bit like that. Blame it on the Plantation Owner maintainin' hzzoner with duelling pistols.
Yeah yeah yeah, sure Howard Zinn, it's learned from Ulster Scot Planters
You peepul do not understand me if you lump me in with Howard Zinn. To a certain extent, I approve of some the alledegedly bad traits of the Olde South, such as touchiness about being "disrepected,"* and a taste for violence. Present day white people need more of that, not less.
* Note that the word "disrespect" is a rather recent Africkan-American coinage.
Nice to see the Duke basketball team emphasize diversity.
goatweed
No, only with White Hispanics.
Ah, yes, imagine having the temerity to interrupt a vibrant yoof's God-given right to shatter one's skull on the sidewalk at his discretion. The sheer, bloody cheek of that Zimmerman chappie, I say!
"Truth said...
The cops planted evidenced and basically admitted to being racists. This is not spurious."
What evidence did they plant? That assertion is just BS, not surprising, given the source. That blacks still claim OJ to be innocent is just more evidence of their tendency to engage in magical thinking.
"Anonymous said...
I think anonymous was just trying to help you as you did sound ignorant of statistics."
That's because he is ignorant of statistics. "Truth" is ignorant about a great many things. He is a renaissance nitwit.
"Dave Pinsen said...
You know, women have been killed by white ex-lovers too."
Yes, but as is the case with just about every kind of violent crime, blacks seem to be more likely to engage in it.
"Ah, yes, imagine having the temerity to interrupt a vibrant yoof's God-given right to shatter one's skull on the sidewalk at his discretion. The sheer, bloody cheek of that Zimmerman chappie, I say!"
So what were you cheering and pumping your fists about,? He wasn't "about to" shatter your skull on the sidewalk.
Dogfights in Kentucky were advertised in Cincinnati newspapers through the 1950s. Dogfighting was illegal in Ohio but legal in Kentucky.
California did not ban dogfighting until 1975, during Jerry Brown's first term as governor!
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stuscacalpencode597_5.htm
NO. Dog fighting runs counter to Biblical teachings. Covering for your relative? Despicable.
You missed my point. I wasn't covering for anyone or saying it was right, and I wouldn't do it with my dog. My points were two:
Dog fighting was not "a Southern thing" like some people are claiming; it went on pretty much anywhere you found men and dogs until fairly recently (didn't anyone else read White Fang?).
It wasn't much like Vick's dog-fighting/torturing "business," so we shouldn't let people get away with saying, "Well, you white people used to do it, so what are you so upset about?"
Re: OJ. A high school classmate was a member of the Bills for 7 years, and he related that OJ was a consummate d-bag, the most disliked guy on the team. So it came as no surprise to me when the reality didn't match the public persona.
"Truth said..
So what were you cheering and pumping your fists about,? He wasn't "about to" shatter your skull on the sidewalk."
His post was hardly fist pumping. Cheering on one's own race-man is more of a black thing, isn't it. The res of us can take some satisfaction from the fact that Zimmerman successfully defended himself, even if we are not him. It sets a good precedent.
"Anonymous said...
I think anonymous was just trying to help you as you did sound ignorant of statistics."
He doesn't just sound that way. He is ignorant of statistics. "Truth" is ignorant of a great many things.
"That blacks still claim OJ to be innocent is just more evidence of their tendency to engage in magical thinking."
I guess that goes for the white people on the jury as well?
"
* Note that the word "disrespect" is a rather recent Africkan-American coinage."
So rappers with the first ones to combine the prefix "dis" with the word "respect?"
Do you have proof of this, Daniel Webster?
"Re: OJ. A high school classmate was a member of the Bills for 7 years,"
Damn, you old.
- ebonic misuse of contraction in above post intentional.
"His post was hardly fist pumping."
Possibly not literally, although I'm not sure about that one either.
"Cheering on one's own race-man is more of a black thing, isn't it."
Was there supposed to be a question mark there, Grasshopper? In any event, I thought that that was a sign of intellect.
"The res of us can take some satisfaction from the fact that Zimmerman successfully defended himself,"
He's a lawyer now?
"even if we are not him. It sets a good precedent"
Which would be what, exactly?
Googling "dog fighting history" brought up an article from NPR and Wikipedia. Wikipedia gives more of a sense that it was extremely underground, which sounds right.
After Vick, I began hearing a little about it, but still more underground than even hard drug dealing. Then I started seeing posters up at my vets office to never list a cat or dog on Craigslist and to keep pets secure when away from home. Never known anyone personally to be touched by this phenomenon. Pit bulls have become a thriving industry here among Blacks and Hispanics, but not sure if they're pets or for fighting.
"Truth said...
Was there supposed to be a question mark there, Grasshopper?"
No, dung beatle, it wasn't a question in my mind.
"David Davenport said...
* Note that the word "disrespect" is a rather recent Africkan-American coinage."
It has existed for some time as a noun, I think, as in: "to hold in disrespect". However, I believe it was blacks who started using it as a verb.
So what were you cheering and pumping your fists about,? He wasn't "about to" shatter your skull on the sidewalk.
I'm not entirely sure of what you're attempting to say, here. When was I cheering and pumping fists, exactly? And what has my skull to do with Martin's attempt to shatter Zimmerman's?
He's a lawyer now?
Don't be petty.
Which would be what, exactly?
Letting it be known to the black yoot of America that they cannot attack with impunity in response to being the subject of perceived "disrespect" without running the risk of facing a much more decisively violent response seems like a good candidate, as does the fact that, like the Duke Lacrosse Affair, this marks another attempt of the American propaganda machine to devour an apparent "Great White Defendant" only to have the intended meal unexpectedly stick in the beast's throat, and eventually be coughed up again with great embarrassment.
You must be joking me. It has absolutely zero to do with race. People don't like other people who shoot, electrocute and drown dogs regardless of the color of their skin.
You gloss over exactly what Vick was doing by calling it a "sport." Why don't you make it absolutely clear how he murdered animals with his bare hands and buried them in his backyard like some garbage.
That you would try to distract people from the actual issue by pulling the race card is disgusting.
The real reasons whites have for resenting black football players all sound like racist stereotypes -- their lack of preparation for being college students, their high rates of sexual assault on white coeds, their tendency to beat up nerds...
No, that's not it. Black jocks don't beat up nerds, at least not the same way as white jocks do. To most black males, all white people are nerds at worst, yuppies at best. That is why there is this common iSteve idea about blacks as dangerous, violent, unstable, criminal. They treat ALL whites, even the jockiest whites, as nerds. It must be really tough for all the (white) high school jocks these days, sending their own jock kids to school, only to find that the black kids assault or otherwise disrespect (!) them.
"They treat ALL whites, even the jockiest whites, as nerds. It must be really tough for all the (white) high school jocks these days, sending their own jock kids to school, only to find that the black kids assault or otherwise disrespect (!) them."
You're right Bro! I could tell you some HORROR STORIES about how I was disrespected!
- Richie Incognito
That you would try to distract people from the actual issue by pulling the race card is disgusting.
No, it's a useful public service, especially considering the effort the American state propaganda organs put into distracting attention from the race issue:
http://sarahmaidofalbion.blogspot.ca/2008/04/ripped-from-headlines-and-ethnically.html
Truth said...
"
* Note that the word "disrespect" is a rather recent Africkan-American coinage."
So rappers with the first ones to combine the prefix "dis" with the word "respect?"
Do you have proof of this, Daniel Webster?
3/26/14, 9:25 AM
You do mean Noah Webster, right? You would remember Daniel Webster from your AP US History as a member of the Great Triumvirate. Common mistake.
Note that the word "disrespect" is a rather recent Africkan-American coinage
"Africkan"? What are you, a neo-pagan?
"Truth said...
"even if we are not him. It sets a good precedent"
Which would be what, exactly?"
That a wandering homie shouldn't attack a stranger and pound his head into the ground because he thought he was being dissed.
Yeah that's right about Daniel /Noah; I wanted to take AP classes but the 85 IQ made it hard.
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