May 21, 2013

Raj Rajaratnam: #236 on the Forbes 400

From the New York Times:
It was around this time, coincidentally, that Gupta started getting closer to Raj Rajaratnam. The son of a Singer Sewing Company executive, Rajaratnam, who is 55, did not have much in common with the “twice blessed” generation. He attended the same English boarding school as P. G. Wodehouse. At Wharton, he struck some students as rich and loudmouthed. But he inspired a group of loyal followers who, in 1997, after he had spent nearly 15 years on Wall Street, helped him cobble together about $350 million and set up shop in a cramped office on Lexington Avenue and 57th Street. Rajaratnam, whose most attractive feature was a wide, gaptoothed smile, seemed to relish his reputation as a player. In 1999, he invited about 300 clients and brokers to a blowout Christmas party headlined by Donna Summer. But he backed up the publicity stunts with phenomenal returns. That year, one of Galleon’s funds soared 93.2 percent. By 2001, investing in technology stocks like Intel and Advanced Micro Devices, he had built Galleon into a $5 billion behemoth. 
All hedge-fund managers strive for an edge — an extra something that will help their funds beat the market average. For years, Rajaratnam had been dogged by the rumors that he owed his edge to insights from a circle of corporate insiders who were paid to divulge proprietary information. Indeed, Rajaratnam had assembled a stable of carefully curated industry moles. His favorite targets were South Asians like himself. Despite the stereotype of South Asians as hardworking grinds who eschew the sharp-elbowed politicking of their American peers, Rajaratnam knew they could be every bit as competitive as anyone else on Wall Street. Many Indians in finance had worked since grade school to gain entrance into the cutthroat I.I.T. system — which was far harder to penetrate than Harvard — before even landing in America. 
Even though he was from Sri Lanka, Rajaratnam made big gifts to Indian causes, and was a regular at exclusive Indian galas. He made his Indian informants feel so comfortable that they often sprinkled Hindi words like accha, or “O.K.,” into conversation. In India, where he would have been treated as an outsider, Rajaratnam’s approach would probably have fallen flat. But in the United States, such differences matter less. Rajaratnam made himself seem like one of them. “Raj sort of had a South Asian mafia,” recalled Gerald Fleming, a colleague from his pre-Galleon days. There were people he could call and “get, for a few companies, earnings to a penny.” Fleming recalled once sitting in Rajaratnam’s office when he logged a call to Advanced Micro Devices. After some time, Rajaratnam’s secretary came in and said that someone with an Indian-sounding name had returned the call. Rajaratnam picked up the phone, walked onto the trading floor and announced the profit figure. “And he was right,” Fleming said. 
Rajaratnam was also an expert at preying on his sources’ weaknesses. His first major target was an Intel marketing executive named Roomy Khan. He caught her attention by mentioning that his wife, Asha, was a Punjabi Indian, like her. Then he reeled her in by promising a well-paying job at Galleon in return for early readings of revenue indicators at Intel and, later, tips about acquisitions, like the Blackstone Group’s bid to buy Hilton Hotels. (She found out about the latter from a South Asian Moody’s analyst, a roommate of her cousin’s.) Rajaratnam also persuaded his old Wharton School classmate Rajiv Goel, a perennially frustrated executive at Intel’s treasury department, to feed him information in exchange for introductions to his high-powered friends. Rajaratnam’s most prized recruit, however, was Anil Kumar, a former classmate from Wharton and a graduate of the I.I.T. system who worked as a technology consultant at McKinsey. 
Kumar’s prickly manner had led to several career setbacks, including being passed over for the job of managing McKinsey’s India office. Rajaratnam shrewdly capitalized on his frustrations. When Kumar returned from India to McKinsey’s Silicon Valley office, Rajaratnam flattered him, asking lofty questions that the consultant readily answered. “I have all the brains, and you have all the billions,” Kumar was overheard saying to Rajaratnam. Feigning humility, Rajaratnam laughed right back. Then, one evening in the fall of 2003, as the two men were leaving a charity dinner in Manhattan, Rajaratnam pulled Kumar aside and offered him $500,000 a year to consult for Galleon. “You have such good knowledge that it is worth a lot of money,” he told him. Kumar, feeling underappreciated by his bosses at McKinsey, soon accepted. Then they found a way to pay him without ever tipping off McKinsey. Rajaratnam was now one step closer to the ultimate source of information — Kumar’s mentor, Rajat Gupta. 
As he had with his other informants, Rajaratnam began the seduction of Gupta by playing on ethnic ties and indulging his new friend during a rare career lull.

The CEO of Advanced Micro Devices was Hector Ruiz, a rarity in Silicon Valley because he's Mexican-American. Ruiz's name came up in amusing circumstances during Rajaratnam's trial.

110 comments:

HerewardMW said...

"helped him cobble together about $350 million and set up shop in a cramped office on Lexington Avenue and 57th Street."

Remember back then, when people could start out with nothing but a dream and three hundred and fifty million dollars to their man and still make it big.

Anonymous said...

A little surprised-given your roots -that you didn't describe this guy as having gone to the same school as Raymond Chandler

Steve Sailer said...

Rajaratnam had Wodehouse's old dorm room:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/10/diversity.html

Steve Sailer said...

"Two years earlier, his parents sent the 11-year-old to study at Dulwich College. “P. G. Wodehouse went there,” I prompt him. Wodehouse is beloved all over South Asia because his comic novels demonstrate that the former colonial masters were ... silly. His face lights up. “I spent three years in his room. People who stay in rooms in Dulwich write their names. When I moved in, I could see his name. I wrote mine below.” "

Dr Van Nostrand said...

Rajaratnam was also an expert at preying on his sources’ weaknesses. His first major target was an Intel marketing executive named Roomy Khan. He caught her attention by mentioning that his wife, Asha, was a Punjabi Indian, like her."

Just as well. Rajaratnam seems more like a smooth talking ,slick Punjabi than a terse and dour Sri Lankan Tamil.
Notice his pitch to her was his was Punjabi wife. Its an indicator that he has joined a club- a club of non Northwestern Indian men married to fair skinned Punjabi women!
And thus he got her stamp of approval ! LOL

I have to disagree that Rajaratnam would be considered a foreigner as such in India.
Even though he was an SL Tamil, he would be seen as an Indian Tamil in due time and treated accordingly.

Anonymous said...

For some reason, there have been a lot of East Indians in my life, including several lifelong friends. I suspect that I know a lot more Indians than the typical white American (which I am). I also suspect that I am also much more wary of Indian immigration because of my experiences with them.

Despite every outward indication to the contrary (with the glaring exception of their never adopting Western names), Indians really don't assimilate very well. They can be extremely clannish, and their clannishness persists well beyond the first generation of immigrants. When it's time to get married, Indian-Americans who seem well assimilated often retreat into very Indian circles.

One Indian friend of mine was born and raised in the United States, but his parents arranged his marriage to another American-born Indian of similar background. He has grown more contemptuous of whites over the years, and he doesn't try very hard to hide it. He has a good life and a great career in this country, but that doesn't seem to matter.

The parents of Indian men here will often arrange marriages (through family connections) with women in India. The guy will fly to India to get married, and then the couple will eventually settle here. I've seen this a lot. It doesn't bode well for the future of Indian-American assimilation.

Anonymous said...

The psychological issues alluded to in the Indian-Anglo relationship are profound.

"Awfully chippy, your Indian." A bean might have said to an egg at Drones.

Gilbert P.

Dr Van Nostrand said...



The parents of Indian men here will often arrange marriages (through family connections) with women in India. The guy will fly to India to get married, and then the couple will eventually settle here. I've seen this a lot. It doesn't bode well for the future of Indian-American assimilation."


For sure there is a rise in inter racial dating (from both genders) among Indian Americans. However I am aware of this phenomenon as well.
I think it is a last ditch effort amonst more traditional minded Indian Americans not to disappear into the mainstream.
Also can you blame men who would want little to do with a Indian American young lady who really isnt really all that different from a sorority girl in her morals.
However he is deluded if he thinks the average woman from India is a paragon of virtue!
Indians often mock Indian Americans as American Born Confused Desis(Hindi word for countryman).
Indian Americans for all their impressive academic credentials are culturally void. Their culture is Bollywood. No exagerration. Yes ,that is sad.
It is for this reason they are held in contempt by Indians and Americans as they are stuck in the middle not knowing which culture to assimilate to.
Many Indians in the past used to credit the sucesss of say Shyamaland,Jindal,Haley ,Kalpana Chawla et al to their Indian background.

However increasingly they realize they achieved all they did in America.

This is also a happy side effect of Indians being jaded with their own country thanks to the various corruption scandals, infrastructure which cant keep up and the lamentable law and order situation.
In my experience, most Indians are torn about patriotic (to U.S)Indian Americans. Some view them as race traitors, others think it is only appropriate they serve their new country and not India.
Pretty much like every other ethnic group of yore.

I think Indian Americans were assimilating rather well before the H1B explosion.

In the otherwise awful movie Loins of Punjab, there was a humorous Indian American character who was trying to find a new job because he lost his due to outsourcing.

Sailer: Wodehouse is beloved all over South Asia because his comic novels demonstrate that the former colonial masters were ... silly."

Not really. I am not aware of any Indian wodehouse fans who felt that way.
Wodehouse described his novels as musical comedies without the music. And seeing how Indians love comedies and music in an old world aristocratic setting,its hard to see how they wouldnt fall for it.
In other words , they love them because they were silly,masters colonial or otherwise has little to do with it.
That said, the British seem more suited to musical comedies than ..say the Mughals!

sunbeam said...

I'm not sure how this thread is going to play out.

But my viewpoint is the behavior Rajaratnam engaged in is the RULE, not the exception on Wall Street.

If the Feds ever bother to investigate Goldman Sachs they will find a whole lot more than this. A whole heckuva lot more.

I have a few more things to say. I never understood exactly what Beta was, but that is the only thing I've ever heard of from Technical Analysis that ever passed muster from a scientific viewpoint.

I'm sure we are all familiar with the Random Walk theory as applied to Wall Street.

My thinking is that if you start with a large selection of traders, and have them make buy and sell decisions randomly, inevitably a small portion of them will have taken a path that led them to great riches.

Then we call this minor population of lottery winners "geniuses."

There is an alternate way. To have more and better information than the Random Walk theory supposes, as Mr Rajaratnam is reputed to.

This is the standard MO on Wall Street, and the specific reason I would never trade stocks unless I'm going for a dividend. I think Fundamental Analysis is a sound approach, but I think that things are going on that make parts of it a fool's errand.

As a minor aside, I used to scoff at day traders. Not so much anymore. I think the successful ones, and there are a number of statistically exceptional ones have found a way (many ways probably) to key into some feature of the mechanics of our trading system. Whether that goes away with the machine trading I do not know, I haven't paid much attention to the market since about 2001.

In short, if you are going to invest in stocks, do so with an index fund that tracks the market, and do it in periods where you think the market will have good returns.

Of course since Greenspan started playing games in the 90's, and Bernanke is sort of continuing them, I don't know what to say about it.

I wouldn't touch the market with a 10 foot pole though.

Anonymous said...

Why I only invest in no-load, low-fee index funds or ETFs.

rightsaidfred said...

[An Indian acquaintance] has grown more contemptuous of whites over the years, and he doesn't try very hard to hide it. He has a good life and a great career in this country, but that doesn't seem to matter.

This pretty well sums up a big problem with the affirmative action/invite the world mentality: no reciprocity, and it engenders contempt.

In matters of race and ethnicity, unilateral disarmament never works, but some groups never learn, even in the face of extinction.

Anonymous said...

I once dated a girl who was half-white and half-Indian. As far as mixed-race people go, that has to be one of the rarer combinations (at least stateside; I imagine it's more common in Britain).. Asian Indians are definitely more clannish and less likely to outmarry than East Asians are. Her Indian mother was Christian, however, and I imagine they are more assimilative than the Hindus and Muslims. Incidentally, I'm half-white, half-Chinese, so if we had ended having kids, they would have been 1/2 white, 1/4 Chinese, and 1/4 Asian Indian. I used to joke that we would pass our kids off as Hispanic, because someone with those genes would probably look exactly like a Mestizo.

Anonymous said...

The contempt that immigrants from the Subcontinental express toward the diverse white American peoples is so discouraging. As Americans, we effectively welcome them into our home. In return, they spit on us.

Anonymous said...

Why are the Chinese so distrustful of Indians? There is saying among Chinese in Asia that if you have a snake in one hand and an Indian in the other, you kill the India first because it is more dangerous. Terrible thing to say.

d said...

Does anybody know whatever happened to Dharun Ravi?

(Not gonna tell you who he is. You should know that.)

dearieme said...

The first Indian friend I had was absolutely upright. I don't mean claiming to be upright, but being so; as in midwestern, rock-ribbed Republican upright, stern Elder of the Kirk upright.

Mind you, he grew up in Rhodesia.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 2:51am:

I have had similar friends and experiences.

I share your concerns too.

Not only do Indians display dislike of whites, and of course any other group considered inferior, they can be vicious to each other. It is my experience that the behavior of Rajaratnam is kinda' typical.

Anonymous said...

If I didn't already know it, that story in the Atlantic about Facebook convinced me the stock market is totally an insiders game. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/in-facebook-we-trust-what-really-happened-behind-the-biggest-ipo-flop-of-our-time/275987/

Amazon lost money on a quarter just recently and its been in business almost 20 years. They can get huge loans and they can issue more stock to bring in money even though they don't make money. But a stock can drop precipitously. I saw it happen with stocks I owned in 2000 and it scared me off the stock market.

Anonymous said...

"The parents of Indian men here will often arrange marriages (through family connections) with women in India. The guy will fly to India to get married, and then the couple will eventually settle here. I've seen this a lot. It doesn't bode well for the future of Indian-American assimilation." - considering that the idea of assimilation itself is a crock, I'd say it was doomed from the start. I'd also point out the abuse of the chain migration system, but no, this is a feature ,not a bug.

David said...

Rajaratnam and Gupta are "Ayn Rand" heros.

1. They demonstrate that laissez-faire capitalism isn't racist. (Never mind that they're racist - racism and xenophobia can only be committed by gentile whites.)

2. They engage in "insider trading." Banker Richard Salsman and others in Objectivism have asserted the moral virtuousness of insider trading.

3. They're rich. "Money is the root of all good," declared a hero in Atlas Shrugged. If you have a lot of coin, chances are you're a profoundly moral person.

4. Financial services aren't the modern-day equivalent of shaving coins. Financial services are as productive as manufacturing a good, according to Yaron Brook, head of the AR Institute. Rajaratnam and Gupta are as good as Henry Ford. Actually, they're superior. Ford was anti-Jewish.

5. They're immigrants. Immigrants are always better than natives, because they CHOOSE to come to a different country. It may seem unclear why crossing a border transforms you a hero, but trust us on this.

So bow down to your conquerors, in the name of George Washington and John Galt and MLK and free enterprise, you schmucks.

I have a better idea. Close the borders and keep these alien crooks out.

* Think I'm exaggerating?

Anonymous said...

The dirty little secret is that this story sums up Wall Street, and indeed Manhattan, to a T. The "free market capitalism" practiced there is all about connections, knowing the right people, having access to information. Things like conscientiousness, intelligence, a strong work ethic etc are almost irrelevant. Membership in a clique is paramount, be it the Jewish clique, the gay clique, the South Asian clique or whatever.

Anonymous said...

"Rajaratnam, whose most attractive feature was a wide, gaptoothed smile..."

I don't know if this was intentional, but my gut reaction was that that's a low blow. It's what the catty gals say when they want to make it clear that someone's a dog without risking blowback.

Anonymous said...

Why doesn't Rajaratnam come across as an evil monster? In another dimension, this guy stars in rap videos -- a good natured wheeler-dealer who looks out for his people and isn't afraid to break the rules. Really, whose life did Rajaratnam ruin? This guy isn't another Madoff.

Of course he should go to jail for life, but more because we want to discourage other crooks, not because justice demands that we treat this guy as being the moral equal of serial killers.

Anonymous said...

>>Indians really don't assimilate very well. They can be extremely clannish, and their clannishness persists well beyond the first generation of immigrants. When it's time to get married, Indian-Americans who seem well assimilated often retreat into very Indian circles.<<

Sounds like you got jilted by a hot Punjabi woman. And not true, Indians marry out at a 30% rate after the first generation.

hardly said...

Indians dont assimilate. thats a fact. For one thing our culture is vastly stronger than East Asian culture owing to the caste identity that we all carry. The same caste identity is what prevented masses of hindus from converting to islam and christianity despite 1000 years of foreign rule in the subcontinent. Othr countries lost their native traditions in a single generation, but the threat of caste ostracisation ensured that hindus stayed true to their traditions.

I had a talk with several older indians about the value of assimilation in america. I was pro assimilation, the older ones were all against. It makes sense. Their point was that the mind numbing social pathology of American society is not something you really want to assimilate into, especially when your own socially conservative, borderline reactionary traditions provide a much better framework for organizing your life.
Their position was - come here, make money, pay your taxes, obey the law. Keep your culture, try to marry only other indians.
Caste pride is also one reason why indians never take western first names, or preferentially marry whites (as opposed to how east asians behave).

rec1man said...

@anonymous @ 2.51 pm

For most Indian names , last name is caste name. Reddy, Patel, Jain, etc

First name often refers to Hindu gods or goddesses

Neither first nor last name can be changed

Next, Hindu religion demands virgin bride and virgins over 18 cant be found in western countries

In Canada, after 5 generations, Indian out-marriage rate is 13%, the lowest of all ethnicities

ben tillman said...

Mark Plus and Mr. Anon:

I "elaborated" in response to your comments regarding Portugal in the "10 Awesome Latino Inventions" thread.

Anonymous said...

"Rajaratnam seems more like a smooth talking ,slick Punjabi"

Acha, you mean like the guy who prosecuted him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preet_Bharara

Anonymous said...

Trouble with these bleedin' wogs is that they work too bloody hard.

Matthew said...

Indian's may not be the the most ethnocentric group of all time, but they're well in the running. They socialize exclusively with each other to a degree seldom seen among other ethnic groups. How often do you walk or drive down the street and see Indian men walking with any but other Indian men? Even in towns with small Indian populations, it's entirely rare. I've seen wedding parties and graduation parties in flyover country where nary a non-Indian guest was to be seen, but for perhaps one or two white dates of other Indians. They graduated from an American college, probably grew up in America, but couldn't bother to make even one or two white friends worth inviting to their graduation party???

"The parents of Indian men here will often arrange marriages (through family connections) with women in India."

Here is why I don't care much for "family reunification." Most people think that the spouse of an American should have an absolute right to immigrate, but when those relationships are arranged ones, not romantic ones, why should I give a shit? You want an arranged Indian marriage? Fine - there are 3 million of you already in the United States. Find one in Tulsa.

Anonymous said...

Another Gupta has landed the South African president in hot water. The guy had made his billions presumably via his corrupt relationship with Zuma and has recently come under the spotlight when he wangled diplomatic privileges for his Indian guests to attend his daughter's Bollywood fantasy wedding at Sun City: http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-05-20-the-great-gupta-farce/#.UZvBgaKzcpk

ATBOTL said...

Are any other ethnic networks like this operating on Wall St.?

I'm sure we can rely on the NYT to tell us if there are.

countenance said...

AMD has been in a good position to make a lot of money for some time, because of the bang for the buck you get for their CPUs. But AMD has always been on shaky financial ground, and isn't looking so hot right now. Could its getting mixed up with Rajaratnam have something to do with that?

Anonymous said...

I attended the huge wedding of an Indian friend in the Bay Area about 10 years ago. He's US-born. It was the biggest wedding I've ever been to. There were hundreds of guests, but I was one of only three or four non-Indians there.

At the time I thought, "He's lived his whole life in California and we're the only non-Indians here?" It was eye-opening. The dancing was fun, though.

Anonymous said...

DVN,

Have you considered starting a blog about Indian ethnic politics from a Hindu revivalist perspective?

-The Judean People's Front

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
For some reason, there have been a lot of East Indians in my life, including several lifelong friends. I suspect that I know a lot more Indians than the typical white American (which I am). I also suspect that I am also much more wary of Indian immigration because of my experiences with them.


I'm IA born here and not sure about your assertion. First of all, what is assimilation? To borrow a concept from a brilliant film, "Heat", is assimilation "barbeques and ballgames"?

Measuring assimilation in terms of the use of Northern-European or English names and/or mixed-wedding rates with whites is pretty weak as well. Actually I would think white people would be happy that IA's are 'clannish' when it comes to these two issues.

Perhaps you are older but in my sub-30 group, most 2nd generation IA's are pretty similar to our white-american counterparts who went to the same colleges we did.

I will concede though IA's might have markedly lower patriotism. I was born here but not by choice and my parents only came here because opportunities in AUS and DE fell through. I'd rather raise my future kids in CH or DE but that's because my personal interests align more with what's mainstream there.

Anonymous said...

India has one of the world's most racist populations.

Map of world racism.

Anonymous said...

Measuring assimilation in terms of the use of Northern-European or English names and/or mixed-wedding rates with whites is pretty weak as well.

Actually, intermarriage and naming is a strong measure of assimilation.

Actually I would think white people would be happy that IA's are 'clannish' when it comes to these two issues.

Don't project your bigotry onto the rest of us.

Anonymous said...

Quibbling over the definition of assimilation could be construed as a a clear indication that one is not assimilated.

Your new America: Somalians, Indians, Chinese, Hmong and Mexicans (oh my!). I don't foresee any moon-landing-magnitude leaps forward in our country's future, but at least we'll be diverse!

Anonymous said...

@12:34 in a globalized world, assimilation is out the window. Hence, immigration must be carefully managed.

This fact is lost on our elites.

the gubbler, grandchild of babushka of boom said...

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=2875

Anonymous said...

@12:34 in a globalized world, assimilation is out the window. Hence, immigration must be carefully managed.

Why is assimilation important?

jody said...

my dad works extensively with various indians, enough now that he's been to india several times, and i agree, they don't assimilate that well. also they aren't all the same, you get to know the different indian groups after awhile.

pittsburgh has one of the largest hindu temples in the world outside of india (maybe it still IS the largest, at one time it was), and there are a lot of indians here, relatively speaking. they are only like 5% of the population though.

they act like a benign hostile force. they obey the law and mostly only break it in the course of white collar crime, but they aren't here to be good anonymous americans and turn into generic americanoids in a generation. they're here to expand india. they stick to their own groups, retain their languages and indian names from one generation to another, seek mainly to hire only other indians in their businesses.

their chain migration will flood apartment complexes with their less intelligent relatives, until the local roads by the apartments are swarmed with middle aged and elderly indians out walking around on the roads in their traditional indian clothing, basically oblivious to things like traffic rules and regulations, acting as if it was a free for all out there like it is in india.

if muslims are ebola, then indians are probably like HIV, slowly building over time and not threatening you until they've reached the tipping point and control something, then, the host is out. long, long way to go for anything like that to happen though, they immigrate slowly, and aren't actively hostile like muslims or swarming in numbers like mexicans. they're more like a low grade version of a chinese infection, if you will, only more insular and less assimilative. lots of chinese want to be generic americanoids, most indians don't.

Anonymous said...

Quibbling over the definition of assimilation could be construed as a a clear indication that one is not assimilated.

I strongly agree.

And not to dilute your point but equating (while disparaging) "barbeques and ballgames" with intermarriage and naming could also be construed as an evasive move.

Anonymous said...

Neither first nor last name can be changed

What does it mean that they "cannot be changed"? Who says? By what authority? Is that authority obeyed?

What happens if a Hindu woman marries a Western man? May she take his last name?

Anonymous said...

Indians dont assimilate. thats a fact. For one thing our culture is vastly stronger than East Asian culture owing to the caste identity that we all carry. The same caste identity is what prevented masses of hindus from converting to islam and christianity despite 1000 years of foreign rule in the subcontinent. Othr countries lost their native traditions in a single generation, but the threat of caste ostracisation ensured that hindus stayed true to their traditions.

I ask the following in earnest: What is "caste identity"? What influence does it have on assimilation and why? What is "the threat of caste ostracisation"?

Anonymous said...

Caste pride is also one reason why indians never take western first names, or preferentially marry whites (as opposed to how east asians behave).

They preferentially marry whites over whom?

Anonymous said...

I'd rather raise my future kids in CH or DE

So you're saying that the nation built and populated by your own people (ie, India), isn't even in contention, and your first choices are two of the most quintessentially white countries in the world?

Anonymous said...

the mind numbing social pathology of American society

Please elaborate on what this is.

Anonymous said...

acting as if it was a free for all out there like it is in india.

This captures in a microcosm what America is becoming--a free for all for the rest of the world, an open market bazaar.

elvisd said...

Their point was that the mind numbing social pathology of American society is not something you really want to assimilate into...

I can feel you about being sensitive to social pathologies. I've always found the pathologies of India such that though I can list thirty countries off the top of my head that I would like to visit, India isn't one of them. Infanticide, attacks on untouchables, raw sewage, and kleptocracy sounds pretty mind numbing to me.

Oh yeah, why are you here again???

DPG said...

via hbd chick, related: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

Matthew said...

"Their point was that the mind numbing social pathology of American society is not something you really want to assimilate into."

Yes. I can well understand not wanting to assimilate into many aspects of American culture. For that I don't blame you. But there are many Americans with a more positive culture which Indians seem to avoid, as well. In my experience Indians seem to be Democrats, yet in their personal lives are even more likely to eschew the multiculturalist ethos the other hypocritical Dems.

Anonymous said...

/*I ask the following in earnest: What is "caste identity"? What influence does it have on assimilation and why? What is "the threat of caste ostracisation"?*/

What people refer to as "caste" is actually known as jAthi in the native languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti

here is a 2-parter on the historical perspective of jAthi

http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/the-birth-based-hysteria-2-why-birth-based/

another 2-parter on the economic rationality of jAthi

http://prathamaathreyan.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/on-the-economic-rationality-of-the-jaathi-part-1/

http://prathamaathreyan.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/on-the-economic-rationality-of-the-jaathi-part-2/

Dave Pinsen said...

"But my viewpoint is the behavior Rajaratnam engaged in is the RULE, not the exception on Wall Street.

If the Feds ever bother to investigate Goldman Sachs they will find a whole lot more than this. A whole heckuva lot more."


Doubtful. Raj committed pretty blatant insider trading. Kind of tough to get away with that. The Feds love to nail moneybags for this stuff, and with today's surveillance state, it's even harder to keep this sort of cartoonish corruption under wraps.

Bear in mind that you don't have to beat the market all the time to make money on Wall Street. Look at someone like Paulson -- had one huge year when his bets against sub prime mortgages panned out, and then people were throwing billions of dollars at him to manage. Since then, his performance has been not so great, but he's made his money.

Anonymous said...

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/imwat/ch6.htm

" To the majority caste was synonymous with religion, and so there was a general reluctance and often resistance to conversion to Islam both by the high and the low caste Hindus."



Anonymous said...

considering that the idea of assimilation itself is a crock, I'd say it was doomed from the start. I'd also point out the abuse of the chain migration system, but no, this is a feature ,not a bug.

Amen to that. There are way more Indians than white Americans, assimilation would be death for white America in the long run. In fact there are more Indians than white people in the whole world.

Anonymous said...

for a man outcasted from his jAthi, no one will partake in his daily activities, even his funeral. Its this isolation, man being a social animal, prevented people converting to Islam and Christianity until recent times.

smead jolley said...

This is the standard MO on Wall Street, and the specific reason I would never trade stocks unless I'm going for a dividend. I think Fundamental Analysis is a sound approach, but I think that things are going on that make parts of it a fool's errand.

Shorter version: A guy in Palo Alto named Kessler wrote a piece in the WSJ about his attempt to pitch institutional clients for a hedge fund. The response was, "what's your conflict?"

Anonymous said...

I'm not going to join in on the East Indian bashing. For all their faults they can't hold a candle to the pernicious influence Jews have over this country.

The Indians can't be blamed if they find the weakness of modern Americans and choose not to be enmeshed in its decadent culture. Let them marry among themselves more power to them.

Asher said...

My mom was involved in an India missionary function in our church for several years. It was initiated by several well-off Indian families in the church and ended up attracting lots of support, in both time and money, from other non-Indian members of the church. Much of the funds went to building schools and orphanages for orphans, and my mom spent six months in India helping with the organization and building projects.

Several years into the project the church found out that the entire organization was actually building private schools for middle-class and rich kids. In other words, a complete fraud.

Anonymous said...

I know a blonde white American woman who married a light skinned upper caste Indian living in America (parents have a business back in India) and she recently came through with a son and is pregnant again. The grandparents are thrilled to have a half-Euro grandson to lighten up the bloodline. Rajiv Gahndi married an Italian, after all.

Kaz said...

@Anonymous 2:29 PM

Of course. No shame in that.

Anonymous said...

"The parents of Indian men here will often arrange marriages (through family connections) with women in India. The guy will fly to India to get married, and then the couple will eventually settle here. I've seen this a lot. It doesn't bode well for the future of Indian-American assimilation.

Why do we want them to intermarry with whites ans assimilate? That means the destruction of white people eventually.

The take over will be complete.

Dave Pinsen said...

It's worth noting that the federal prosecutor who went after Raj was Indian too: Preet Bharara.

hardly said...

1. India has hundreds of endogamous caste groups. A person's identity revolved around his caste, as he grew up wth them, lived among them, married one of them.
2. Every Indian is proud of his caste, and even the lowest castes make up stories of a glorious past. People want their children to grow up as members of the caste - preserving the bloodline.
3. Hindu scriptures treat intercaste marriages, and "assimilation" (meaning abandoning one's specific caste identity), as the single most horrific thing imaginable.
4. The American social pathology I referred to was the post-1960s liberal circus. Rampant premarital sex, gays, drugs, putting parents into old age homes, divorce, etc etc. Indians of the older generation are terrified of their children also joining the "decadent white" culture - they don't realize that this isn't what white culture originally was, but something that it has become owing to leftism.
5. I've heard people of my own generation tell me they want to work in America for a few years and then go back to India because they are terrified of raising their children in America. They picture their daughter pregnant at 15 and their son a homosexual pot smoker. Because that is what mainstream american culture seems to be when you watch Hollywood.
5. India has plenty of its own problems, but remember that the indians in America are upper middle class emigres.

Son of Brock Landers said...

66 comments and only one other person noticed that there might be another ethnic group of a small minority that might use clan kinship and ethnic identity manipulation as well as tight relationships to use it to their advantage.

I'm sure a few other billionaires on the list are there for similar reasons... praying to only one god though.

rec1man said...

Religion is the main reason Indians dont assimilate

Many Indians are muslims, and muslims never assimilate anywhere. In western Europe, they have created a rape epidemic of white girls and no-go zones attacking cops

Jews dont assimilate either for religious reasons, 30% of jews go to private religious schools and until a few decades ago, despite being white, 90% of jews married within

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084722/Generation-young-Muslims-ending-jail-old-fashioned-way-treated-mosques-family-breakdown.html

has UK jail statistics
Anglican = 20k; Catholic = 14k; Muslims = 10k; Buddhists ( east asian ) = 1800; Sikhs = 669; Hindus = 435; Jews = 233;


Hindus and Sikhs belong to huge extended families of several hundred people. These extended families act like the welfare net and there can be severe consequences of disgracing them.

Many things you do can create disgrace for the extended family. Such as converting to islam or christianity or marrying a muslim or a christian or a black or an untouchable, or going to jail or getting pregnant or using drugs or being an alchoholic

These rules are unwritten but known to everyone, and somewhat vary from caste to caste

A Hindu may marry a buddhist, jain or Sikh freely without any consequences

Any such shame to the extended family results in other members being unable to get an arranged marriage done, and the offender will be outcasted, like being shunned among the Amish

Marrying an Indian christian or Indian muslim will lead to automatic outcasting. In the USA, Sparkle Rai, a black girl who married a Punjabi got honor killed by her Punjabi father in law.

Marrying a white person is more complicated. In India, the anglo-Indian half-white hybrids got outcasted. These days, in some cases, the extended family may tolerate a non-black, if the kids are raised inside the Indian religion.

For those Indians who marry out, 90% it is with whites
During the period of miscegenation laws, thousands of Punjabi Sikhs married Hispanic women in California and created a community called Mexican Hindu

In weekends, they cant go to church and assimilate. They cant go to barbeque, because many dont eat beef. They cant go hunting or fishing because it is against the religion.

Indians have a parallel society.
They go to weekend Hindu Sunday schools and bollywood and Hindu temples and Indian festivals

Unlike Jews or Muslims, Hinduism is polytheistic, pagan and far different from christianity.

Hindu beliefs and culture and dress is mocked by white christian americans, which is why white christians are never invited to Hindu functions. However, white Hindu converts are accepted

This non-assimilation behavior is same in UK, middle east, malaysia, Africa

Indians are far more racist to NAMs than whites, and have no political correctness


rec1man said...

Anonymous said...
Neither first nor last name can be changed

What does it mean that they "cannot be changed"? Who says? By what authority? Is that authority obeyed?


--

Your last name is your caste name and your tribal identity and cant be changed

Your first name is after some Hindu god and cant be changed due to religious reasons

--

What happens if a Hindu woman marries a Western man?

--

Very rare, her family will threaten to outcaste her

--
May she take his last name?

--
yes
--

Caste ostracisation = outcasting = Shunning = social boycott that even affect your siblings

Anonymous said...

Lol at all the Indians who swarmed to this thread. I wonder how many are regular readers, and how many were alerted to a critical Indian article through the tribe.

I will hire blacks but I will not hire an Indian. They just look to milk anything they are a part of.

To me the worst part is how hippocritical Indians are. Say you wouldn't hire an Indian and they will rile up the whole clan all the way back to India to shit on you. But if you listen to how Indians talk amongst themselves they will have no problem talking about how they would never hire a black or a white or a Muslim.

as said...

"Wodehouse is beloved all over South Asia because his comic novels demonstrate that the former colonial masters were ... silly."

This is false, false, false.

Anonymous said...

White man would have say in everything, if Jesus Christ created him, alas even Jesus Christ in not White.

Anonymous said...

Rec1man or DVN -

How are Indians who marry Jews treated by the extended families? Are they outcasted? Any difference between the treatment of Sephardi and Ashkenazi? The Jewish-Indian pairing is uncommon, but I've seen a few of those couples in large cities. Obviously, in an American setting, the Jews were non-Orthodox.

Kaz said...

@Rec1man

You paint an odd picture..

As a Indian/Pakistani that was born and raised in America, I've never heard of anyone actually mentioning castes. None of my Hindu friends ever mentioned it. Fair skin, yeah heard about that every so often, from elders though, not peers.

I'm not sure about this recent wave of migrants of Indians though. They're definitely different from the people that made up my parent's generation.

'Hindu beliefs and culture and dress is mocked by white christian americans, which is why white christians are never invited to Hindu functions. However, white Hindu converts are accepted'

Hmm? White people love Indian weddings, well, the SWLPish ones I know for certain. When you say mock do you mean that kinda patronizing attitude about other cultures? It's not so bad.

Though my experience only lies with Indian weddings that are between American raised Indians. Not the whole importing or recently emigrated variety.

Anonymous said...

/* Neither first nor last name can be changed */

Hindus never had the concept of first name or last name. They only had a given name, which may be one or more, including their ancestral village &/or occupation.

The first name, last name is a colonial legacy and the requirements of a modernized world.

There are communities in India, in which after marriage, women are given a 'new' official name by the groom and known only by that name going forward.

Dr Van Nostrand said...


How are Indians who marry Jews treated by the extended families? Are they outcasted? Any difference between the treatment of Sephardi and Ashkenazi? The Jewish-Indian pairing is uncommon, but I've seen a few of those couples in large cities. Obviously, in an American setting, the Jews were non-Orthodox."

My sister married a white American of Jewish background(not practicing). It wasnt my parents first choice but they went all with it and so did I

There was no shunning or honor killing !

I dont know what the heck rec1man is talking about.

In my experience with Indian Americans, yes caste exists but it doesnt really prevent intercaste marriage or even inter racial marriage.

Im not sure most Indians even know the difference between Ashkenazi and Sephardic except perhaps by appearance.

Indians and Jews are (for now) a mutual admiration society. So it is natural that inter marriage occasionally occurs between these groups.There would be higher rates if only ONE of the two groups were clannish.However it seems both are now assimilating at higher rates.

Dr Van Nostrand said...

@JPF

I often considered it but never took the plunge!Maybe this year!

Anon 1:47
I'm IA born here and not sure about your assertion. First of all, what is assimilation? To borrow a concept from a brilliant film, "Heat", is assimilation "barbeques and ballgames"? "

You do realize it was an asocial criminal who made that statement in the movie?
The problem ,dear Brutus ,lies not in the BBQ,ballgames,PTA meetings,neighbhorhood watch,4th of July fireworks,church,St patricks day parades but in ourselves.

re Preet Bharara

Yes ,I am aware of the blue eyed Punjabi Sikh Bharara.
Im surprised Indian HBDers havent commented on the fairskinned establishment Punjabi vs the Poorbia(North central and Eastern Indian) Rajat Gupta and Tamil Rajaratnam. As was the case in the 1800s when the British favored northwestern types over other Indians.

If I were to see an ethnic angle, I would say that Bharara was still miffed that the traditional Punjabi superiority was upending when Indira Gandhi crushed Sikh pride in 1984 led by Tamil general with the poorbia political and military support.

Or how the LTTE brutally dealt with Sikh soldiers in Sri Lanka in the late 80s.

But I dont look at everything through an ethnic angle-Bharara was just doing his job.

Dr Van Nostrand said...


2. Every Indian is proud of his caste, and even the lowest castes make up stories of a glorious past."

Actually many lower castes DO have a glorious past. Some of the greatest kings and dynasties such as Mauryas,Guptas, Yadavas hail from lower castes.



People want their children to grow up as members of the caste - preserving the bloodline.
3. Hindu scriptures treat intercaste marriages, and "assimilation" (meaning abandoning one's specific caste identity), as the single most horrific thing imaginable."

That was in Manusmriti and the Bhagvad Gita. But even in Manusmriti, you have an extensive list of the people who are the result of mixed castes.

The Bhagvad Gita was a very traditionalist and conservative text which celebrates miltarism to the extent of fratricide in order to maintain the social order.
Most Hindus dont act out the deeds of Krishna and Arjuna it the same way they dont prescribe to caste mixing being the great horror out there.

Dr Van Nostrand said...

India has one of the world's most racist populations.

Map of world racism."

I often wonder about this survey. How are the questions framed?

Most foreigners living in India complain about many things but racism isnt usually one of them.

Im not sure I would put too much stock into this.

This is the same country that venerated both Bush and Obama.
The country where Israel has the highest approval rating but has a restaurant named after Hitler and Mein Kampf is a best seller as a "management manual"

Im not sure Indians who answer these surveys really put too much thought into it

Dr Van Nostrand said...



--

"Your last name is your caste name and your tribal identity and cant be changed"

Absolute nonsense. Last name is quite often not the caste name.In the case of Tamils, it is often the fathers name.
You can change your caste by marrying up and I am talking about men!
Even the socalled caste names like Patel,Singh,Rao,Jain,Reddy arent really caste names but titles
Patel is the head of a village/revenue collector
Reddy means chief
Singh is a word for lion
Jain is a member of Jain religion
Rao is a title of authority

Of course these names are associated with a particular caste but there is cross pollination of these names across various castes.

Velupillai Prabhakaran of the LTTE was able to consolidate his Tamil base by marrying a woman from a higher Vellala caste.
This happens in North India too but less often as South Indians also had a matriarchal system.

Your first name is after some Hindu god and cant be changed due to religious reasons"

Complete rubbish. Not all Hindu names are religious names. The same way not all Islamic or Christian names are from the Quran or Bible.
Ashok,Sanjay,Vijay,Raj -some of the most common Hindu names are not at all religious.
Even people with religious names change them all the time with no religious or social penalties whatsoever.


--

What happens if a Hindu woman marries a Western man?

--

Very rare, her family will threaten to outcaste her"


Did not happen in my sisters case ,neither in the case of many others I know.
--

rec1man,seriously if you are Indian apologist this is pretty shoddy work.
Your knowledge is not just outdated but inaccurate and illogical.
In other words you sound like the average Indian American!

Anonymous said...

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/05/lewis_butts_busted_for_campaig.html#incart_river_default

Anonymous said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/police-arrest-4-after-second-night-of-riots-in-stockholm-suburb-triggered-by-police-shooting/2013/05/21/0ad9e7c6-c208-11e2-9642-a56177f1cdf7_story.html

die-versity

Anonymous said...

Isn't Rec1man a Tamil Brahmin? Could the differences between his assessments and DVN's reflect different regional or caste origins?

Dr Van Nostrand said...


Isn't Rec1man a Tamil Brahmin? Could the differences between his assessments and DVN's reflect different regional or caste origins?"

Actually I am a South Indian Brahmin(not Tamil).
rec1man I suspect is North Indian Hindu fundie,possibly Indian American.

He is simply too ill informed about Indian history, social and caste dynamics in south India to be anything else.

Dr Van Nostrand said...


For those Indians who marry out, 90% it is with whites
During the period of miscegenation laws, thousands of Punjabi Sikhs married Hispanic women in California and created a community called Mexican Hindu"

There was such a hyprid community I am not sure they were referred to as Hindu!
Wasnt there a case in the 1920s where a Sikh sued the U.S government as he wanted to be considered Caucasian on account of his "Aryan" race. I think it went to the Supreme Court and was struck down.

In weekends, they cant go to church and assimilate. They cant go to barbeque, because many dont eat beef. They cant go hunting or fishing because it is against the religion."

Only Brahmins are forbidden to hunt.It is in fact recommended for Kshatriyas and some other groups.
Brahmins in the past also used to consume meat,including beef.

Indians have a parallel society.
They go to weekend Hindu Sunday schools and bollywood and Hindu temples and Indian festivals"

From which they learn absolutely nothing, if you and other Indian Americans are any indication.

Unlike Jews or Muslims, Hinduism is polytheistic, pagan and far different from christianity.

Hindu beliefs and culture and dress is mocked by white christian americans, which is why white christians are never invited to Hindu functions. However, white Hindu converts are accepted"

Anything that is outlandish and strange (to their eyes) would be mocked. Native European costumes are also given the same treatment.
Relax.
Let us not pretend it is due to fear of being mocked that we dont invite whites to our weddings. It is simply because neither the groom nor bride have enough white friends.

While I all for greater integration into U.S society , I dont care for white converts into Hinduism.

If they wish to become they Indian citizens they are welcome.Religion is a different matter.
We are not a missionary religion and each community has its own history and rituals ,so I dont quite see a place for foreigners in Hinduism

The last time we absorbed foreigners such as Scythians and Huns, the dark ages began setting stage for the Islamic invasions and conquest.

Dr Van Nostrand said...


* Think I'm exaggerating?"

Jeez! This Ayn Rand crowd is something else. She was and still is very popular among the Indian middle class.
Her past popularity is particularly interesting as Indians were suffering under the yoke of a socialist economy.

I considered reading her books but I suspected they are about 700 pages too long.

Then I read Anthony Daniels/Theodore Dalrymple's critique of her in the New criterion.

Pretty hard to overlook that! The only other comparable fisking that comes to mind was F Roger Devlins review of Wendy Shalits book.

Anonymous said...

/* The Bhagvad Gita was a very traditionalist and conservative text which celebrates miltarism to the extent of fratricide in order to maintain the social order. */

Wrong. The war between Pandavas & kauravas, (cousins, kshatriyas- warriors) was to re-establish Dharma by giving back the kingdom to Pandavas, what was rightly theirs. Social order has got nothing to do with it.

Anonymous said...

"I will hire blacks but I will not hire an Indian. They just look to milk anything they are a part of."

There is joke I read a while ago;

A Barber in Newark on a Monday provides a free hair-cut to Irish Police Officer.

Barber replies to the Officer:"Providing free hair-cut to the public on Monday, is my way of saying thanks to the public".

Next day, he recieves Thank-You Greetings Card from the Police Officer.

A German customer like wise sends the Barber flowers.

Barber Offers the same free hair-cut to an Indian, Next Monday, he sees a long line of Indians waiting for a free Hair-Cut.


Dr. Von Nueman is just Cutting & Pasting from the internet. "Early Brahmins never ate Meat/Beef, maybe those who took up arms and became Kshyathriyas"

Dr Van Nostrand said...


Wrong. The war between Pandavas & kauravas, (cousins, kshatriyas- warriors) was to re-establish Dharma by giving back the kingdom to Pandavas, what was rightly theirs. Social order has got nothing to do with it."

And thereby upholding the social order- you cant have it without justice.
Neither can there be peace without justice.
Krishna goes into great about social morality in the Bhagvad Gita

Dr Van Nostrand said...

Anon @7:35

The only thing more pathetic than a bigot is an ineffective one-which describes you perfectly.

The joke was lame and unfunny in the extreme.Heck it wasnt even offensive!

And your point about Brahmins and Kshatriyas is even more nonensical and devoid of fact and logic.

Please try again

Cail Corishev said...

I've learned one thing from these threads: Americans have no freaking clue what's going on with all the different cultures in India, or what Indians on the whole think about anything.

Anyone who wants to invite multitudes of complete unknowns into the country is either a moron or a traitor.

Anonymous said...

Dr Von nostrand.

I think this illustrates how Indians are exactly. You are revolted when Indians are the target of jokes, even when they are true. Yet I have known enough Indians to know that they have their own jokes for ethnic groups.

So I am sorry, but I cannot feel any empathy for Indians who are targeted like this.

Dr Van Nostrand said...

I ask the following in earnest: What is "caste identity"? What influence does it have on assimilation and why? What is "the threat of caste ostracisation"?"

Caste is the most unfortunate word to describe the social structure of Hinduism.It stuck
Caste implies something is set in stone.I think it was first used by Portuguese. Boy did this inadvertent PR campaign against Hinduism succeed!
Hindu groups traditionally organized themselves by jati(peoples) than a set occupation which caste implies.

No Hindu is going to claim that India was always an egalitarian paradise.
However some corrections are in order.
Throughout Hindu history ,you do have reactionaries against caste upliftment but it did occur anyway.
There is practically no region in the country which follows the plain vanilla priest/soldier/artisan,merchant,farmer/labourer

Even Manu(our Noah,Adam and Moses) whom it is fashionable to abuse was quite generous to describe any large group as Kshatriya.
Most people dont realize that this super Aryan actually describe "dravida"(from which this neologism Dravidian was derived) as an Aryan Kshatriya group.

Manu lists various ethnic groups (today identified a great deal with the various states in the Indian union) and their genesis and how they came about. A good deal of them were mixed. The famous being the most powerful kingdoms in Indian history- Magadhas and Andhras.

As I mentioned in my previous post, most of these famous caste names are not really names but titles. Titles that were bestowed by kings or other ruling authorities on other castes than those who currently possess most of them
And even then other castes can have those caste names in their title.

Caste ostracism was really exile from your community rather than you profession.In pre modern era, it was the equivalent of a death sentence.

Another poster mentioned caste as the reason why Hinduism didnt fall as easily before Islam as Zoroastrian Persia(which was more powerful at the time) ,Budhhist Central Asian countries or Christian kingdoms in the Middle East.

Simply put ,Hinduism had no centre which Islam could hit and wipe out.
They tried destroying Hinduism by killing Brahmins and temples but the problem was Brahmins dont really congregate in one place but are part of their communities and it was the duty of the Kshatriyas to protect them and they did.

Indeed during the Islamic invasions, when a lot of warrior classes were decimated,the Brahmins who had the authority to authorize new Kshatriyas did so out of whole cloth from lower castes who continued the fight.

Therefore caste assimilation is really purging of your ethnic identity which people mistake as a rigid ,uber hereditary profession passing from generation to generation unchanged.

Each "caste" had their own rituals,traditions,sacred groves and heck even dieties(a family diety called kul devta, not all that different from ancestor worship similar to the worship of hearth thru Hera. Maximus in Gladiator does something similar with his clay figurines which he carries around)

One hears horrible stories of inter caste wars(literally wars ,the militias call themselves Senas or armies) and discrimination but on this scale,its a new phenomenon due to the uprooting of traditional structures more so due to the British and its ideological succesor,the Republic of India which continued the British governments ham handed approach to favoritism of ethnic groups ,this time for votes and divide et impera politics.

In a state of flux ,there is bound to be violence.In time it will pass.

Im more worried about corruption and nepotism during this time of flux. Violence can be endured but what republic can withstand corruption on such a scale and for so long?

hardly said...

I like you, Dr Van Nostrand. We should get together and start a reactionary hindu webspace somewhere. Leave iSteve to the American reactionaries.

Anonymous said...

/* No Hindu is going to claim that India was always an egalitarian paradise. */

Hindu social structure is NOT built on egalitarianism. Which served it well for over 5000 years.

Pungently Punjabi said...

The question of assimilation is pretty hilarious. You have Raj Rajaratnam, one South Asian among a large cohort of South Asian who have reached the top positions of power in the fields of business and finance. Then you have, Preet Bahara, the South Asian prosecuting Raj, again one of many South Asians who have risen to positions of distinction in the legal profession. To top it off, the NY Times article is written by Anita Raghavan, yet another South Asian member of the elite press.

What is there to assimilate to when you run the show?

rec1man said...

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/06/interracial-divorce-the-matrix/

Has a survey of dating preferences

For Women

96% would avoid Indian men
95% would avoid arabs
93% would avoid east asians
90% would avoid blacks

For Men

94% would avoid blacks
82% would avoid Indians
78% would avoid arabs

So any Indian going for assimilation by out-marriage will likely get the dregs of society and would have have to trade downward and far more easy to get an arranged marriage done

Anonymous said...

"So you're saying that the nation built and populated by your own people (ie, India), isn't even in contention, and your first choices are two of the most quintessentially white countries in the world?"

Why should it be? I've been to India twice in 25 years and I have zero issues with white people which is why my original post responding to assimilation-issues and hatred of whites is something I do not find to be the case with Indian American's born here in my age group (sub 30).

I think many of the posters on here are perhaps reflecting on their experiences and observations of older indian-americans who immigrated here or grew up in places like Edison, Bellevue, Jackson Heights, or the bay area where there are is a huge indian community. I grew up in a middle class, 95% white area (though unlike piyush jindal I had more self-esteem then to take a ridiculous nick-name to 'fit in').

My original post was saying that assimilation should be less about the propensity to take a home country's list of common names. It seems so ridiculous to randomly borrow a name from a different culture/background unless you have some family or cultural link to said name(s). Would a British family living in India name their children Rahul or Reena? That's all I meant with my view on naming.

Anonymous said...

India=caste society

Nothing better describes Indians than this.

Drop a million Indian babies into random white homes, and they will all find each other and start working to create a caste society with Indians on top.

Dr Van Nostrand said...


India=caste society

Nothing better describes Indians than this."

And nothing has PROTECTED India better than this as I explained above.

Drop a million Indian babies into random white homes, and they will all find each other and start working to create a caste society with Indians on top."


Name say 100 individuals who were adopted by white parents(there must be more) who came together and create a caste based group.

OTOH,In the highly unlikely scenario of a million babies being adopted by those of a different ethnicity,would it not be natural for them to be somewhat curious about the counterparts in other families.
Perhaps those Indian babies growing up to form a Goraputra Americavamshi(sons of whites, America dynasty) caste but apart from that, it will be like any other ethnic clique

Dr Van Nostrand said...

Dr Von nostrand.

I think this illustrates how Indians are exactly. You are revolted when Indians are the target of jokes,"

I am not really revolted but I am irritated as that was a stupid joke. I hope for your sake you are not a comedian

even when they are true."

True what? What is the point of the joke? That Indians are cheap? Wow, way to earn your unPC street cred!
FYI, I worked as a waiter in an Indian restaurant in U.S during college.Myself, two waitress(Indian and Indian American) as well a white waiter would pray that they dont get an Indian customer as they were notoriously cheap tippers.
No one was offended that the white guy thought this way.
I have much better jokes about Indians being tightfised with cash ,but I suspect you are too stupid to understand them if your posts are any indication.


Yet I have known enough Indians to know that they have their own jokes for ethnic groups."

I had long ago given up into inquiring if any your statements have a point.

So I am sorry, but I cannot feel any empathy for Indians who are targeted like this."

Which Indian? Rajaratnam? Firstly he is not Indian but Sri Lankan which is a considerably different culture,radically different history and a narrower genetic makeup than India.
Just because he struck friendships with Indians abroad and charmed his way into the South Asian(not the geographical rather national designation) community doesnt make him Indian.

Secondly, hardly any Indian here feels any empathy for him or Rajat Gupta(yes he is an Indian)
It is different matter this type of thing is done in Wall Street all the time. He was just foolish enough to get caught. That doesnt mean I empathisize with him or any other Indian does.

Are you seriously this retarded?



hardly said...
I like you, Dr Van Nostrand. We should get together and start a reactionary hindu webspace somewhere. Leave iSteve to the American reactionaries.

Thanks hardly. I often thought about opening a blog about Indian/Hindu stuff if mostly just to correct misinterpretations of Hinduism and Indian history.
I shold get around to it.

isteve is one of the few white non Hindu blogger who comments extensively about India.But many of his observations and analysi are flawed due to his lack of knowledge of Indian history and society.So I feel I have to correct the record
Steve is a good guy who simply wants best for his country.I empathize with his take on illegal immigration and to a somewhat lesser degree legal immigration

Robert Lindsay is another guy who is interested in India but I find him intolerable as he is uncomfortable with dissenting opinions ,curses and bans people left and right.
So no point in going there if your voice cant be heard

Pungently Punjabi said...

rec1man:

"http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/06/interracial-divorce-the-matrix/

Has a survey of dating preferences

So any Indian going for assimilation by out-marriage will likely get the dregs of society and would have have to trade downward and far more easy to get an arranged marriage done"

And, once more, you show your penchant for coarsely cherrypicking data to try to back up your ideas. The very post you're citing contains a comment exchange that underscores this:

"Shan

March 7, 2010
Razib, the data shows that 96.2% of white women will not date an East Indian and 82% of white men will not date an East Indian woman
Does this not contradict your expectatio that the Desi will vanish by inter-marriage

#20
razib

March 7, 2010
shan,

please read more closely. those percentages are *subsets*. so around 70% of women (nearly 100% of the 72% of women who selected racial preferences). second, my assertion was based on census data. ~30-40% of american-born indian americans here who marry native born people do not marry indian americans. without immigration that would lead to the dissolution of the group as indian american fertility is at or below replacement, so the endogamous component would shrink. third, there is some difference between what people will do on internet dating sites, and revealed preferences. the yahoo personal data would imply that indian american women would have notably higher outmarriage rates. they do not. this is probably because operationally the pool of potential non-browns who is date/marry browns is so large in relation to the browns that the difference in numbers is not relevant."

My impression is that many second gen Indian American males have found that "pool of potential non-browns" more than a comfortable one to swim in. Attractive white women without a racial preference or anti-Indian bias are a minority (not of the minuscule proportions one rec1man was initially suggesting, as the above comments bear out), but I've never had trouble finding them during my undergrad and grad years (indeed, I could easily fill out a sexual memoir - Fifty Shades of Pale?). It probably helps to be fair-skinned and tall (whatever distances you from the exemplar of "Indian" nerd), but I think what's been most to my aid is shared by most 2nd gen IA men, a high IQ that skews verbal. I was running game before I knew there was a name for it. I've known many a darker-skinned short-statured brother to hit off with white women through such finesse.

Dr Van Nostrand said...


My impression is that many second gen Indian American males have found that "pool of potential non-browns" more than a comfortable one to swim in. Attractive white women without a racial preference or anti-Indian bias are a minority (not of the minuscule proportions one rec1man was initially suggesting, as the above comments bear out), but I've never had trouble finding them during my undergrad and grad years (indeed, I could easily fill out a sexual memoir - Fifty Shades of Pale?). It probably helps to be fair-skinned and tall (whatever distances you from the exemplar of "Indian" nerd), but I think what's been most to my aid is shared by most 2nd gen IA men, a high IQ that skews verbal. I was running game before I knew there was a name for it. I've known many a darker-skinned short-statured brother to hit off with white women through such finesse."



Too many people underestimate the factor of proximity and social setting in producing interracial pairings.

A guy of whatever race need not be super attractive to get an attractive person of another race, even if belongs to the race that is considered higher in status than his.
All he needs to do is not be repulsive or creepy and appear presentable.But most importantly he should be part of the same social circle.

Forget about the more open minded undergrad white girls.
While I was in Dubai, I ended up with very conservative local Arab women.And yes all the way.
Mind you, Indians here are looked upon lower than mestizos in Argentina.
I am short but am rather pale(for a south Indian anyway) ,can pass for an Paki or Iranian and speak with an American accent so that impresses a lot of people here LOL.
I also know face in the crowd guys who ended up with hot women of all races not because they had solid "game" but they were in the right place at the right time.

Anonymous said...

If nothing has protected India better than a caste society, it is reasonable to assume that Indians will go elsewhere and try to replicate the same caste society that makes India a third world society. All the better reason to keep Indians out of your country.

The point being about racism, is that Indians are very thin skinned when it comes to criticism about their people. They will ring the bell and gather other Indians to decry how anyone can criticize them, yet at the same time Indians are full of racist stereotypes and jokes about other groups.

Name a hundred individuals? How bout raj and Patel?

Dr Van Nostrand said...


If nothing has protected India better than a caste society, it is reasonable to assume that Indians will go elsewhere and try to replicate the same caste society that makes India a third world society. All the better reason to keep Indians out of your country."

All the better reason to screen people from India for castist tendencies as well as educational and professional credentials.


The point being about racism, is that Indians are very thin skinned when it comes to criticism about their people."

The main point was that joke was incredibly lame

They will ring the bell and gather other Indians to decry how anyone can criticize them, yet at the same time Indians are full of racist stereotypes and jokes about other groups."

Yes ,Indians are hypocrites when it comes to racism.Not defending it, but what minorities arent?

Name a hundred individuals? How bout raj and Patel?"

Patel is a last name and Raj is (usually) a first you knucklehead.
Did you even understand the question?
Somehow you have managed to fail twice in this round even though there is just one question!
Must be that high IQ of the white hbd lot I keep hearing so much about!

Anonymous said...

Ahh, so now you are the racist Dr.

The only thing Indians are particularly good at is being argumentative which you and your countrymen are proving. We don't need more lawyers or slick race hustlers here.

Why would we want to do a better job screening Indians when we can just let them play caste warfare in India?

Dr Van Nostrand said...


Ahh, so now you are the racist Dr."

what?

The only thing Indians are particularly good at is being argumentative which you and your countrymen are proving. We don't need more lawyers or slick race hustlers here."

In my experience, Indians are only argumentative and aggressive when defending their culture. There are quite a few SWPL lefty types in the media as well as evangelical right wingers you find on CBN. But they are a minority. By and large they wish to be left alone and still overwhelmingly prefer the more non political middle class occupations such as engineering,medicine and business.

Why would we want to do a better job screening Indians when we can just let them play caste warfare in India?"

Now who is racist? You want to fan the flames of caste hatred and you have the nerve to call others bigots?
Let me explain something to pinheads like yourself - yes India has bewildering array of castes and sects but its gets by fine for the most part as its social cohesion despite the diversity is strong due to Hinduism and patriotism.
How is U.S doing these days? Race relations are on the edge of a volcano despite you having only 1 majority race and two large minorities and 1 religion which over 85%of the populations follows.
What are these black flash mobs if not riots?
Gang warfare more often than not is ethnic warfare

No one claimed that India is a paradise of any sort but clearly you are such a fool that you criticize one of the few aspects of that culture that works well!
Yet another fail. Three in a row.Congratulations

Anonymous said...

Dr Van Nostrand - are there any links describing and enumerating castes in India - preferably written from a neutral standpoint, whether Indian or other author?

You seem to be implying that caste is a bit like class was in England before the industrial revolution - relatively fixed, but not absolutely - movement between groups was possible for individuals.

Joe said...

This article the Tamil head of a football fixing operation may interest you.http://www.smh.com.au/sport/football/revealed-the-international-mr-big-calling-the-shots-in-football-betting-20130915-2tswu.html

Anonymous said...

i can't understand what the heck is insider trading. if someone wants to invest a 100 million dollars in a company-damn it he has every reason to find out the credentials & financial activities of the company.
insider trading clause should be abolished & free trading should become the order of the day.

brgds/