May 18, 2008

Indian IQ, Part 1: Diaspora Demographics

Since 2002, I've been pointing out that a crucial piece of missing information that anybody (such as an investor) interested in predicting the path of 21st global history would want to know is what is the potential average IQ of India.

We have some IQ data on India, as collected in Lynn and Vanhanen's IQ and the Wealth of Nations and their other books, and they point toward low average scores.

On the other hand, first, India is an extremely complicated place, so it's harder to come up with a nationally representative sample there than in any other country.

Second, India has been severely burdened by malnutrition, disease, and illiteracy. We know from comparing Africans (average IQ around 70) to African-Americans (average IQs around 85, despite being no more than 20% white) that tropical poverty can prevent people from reaching their genetic potential in IQ.

Something similar is probably true in India. Its recent rapid economic progress makes it more plausible that the environmental deficits lowering average IQ in India will ameliorate to some substantial extent over the course of this century.

An iSteve commenter calling himself Rec1man has built a model of potential Indian average IQ based on IQ scores of the Indian diaspora in various countries more affluent than India. This seems like a plausible approach, so I've been discussing it with him via email and now I'm going to begin posting it.

I want to break my posting of Rec1man's model up into several stages, because, in my experience, it's easy for a reader to skip right to the bottom line of a complex model and accept or reject it as a whole, and then get invested in defending one's initial reaction.

His is necessarily a complicated model because the Indian diaspora is extremely heterogeneous due to the caste system in India and the different selection filters for Indian immigrants in diaspora countries. Thus, for example, the average caste level of the Indian diaspora in the U.S. is much higher than in former British tropical colonies where the British were looking to import diligent peasants rather than computer programmers.

So, Rec1man has come up with estimates of the demographics of the Indian diaspora by caste for each country.

From there, he can work back to estimating IQ by caste within each diaspora country and then to potential IQ by caste in India and finally back to potential overall average IQ for India as a whole.

Today, though, I'm going to post just his demographic breakdowns by caste for Indians in various country, and leave his IQ estimates for another day. This is information I've never seen published before, even though I've long wondered about it.

But, I don't know whether his demographic estimates are accurate. If you have some knowledge of this subject, please comment on whether the following look reasonably accurate or not.

If they do look plausible, then I'll go ahead and post Rec1man's IQ estimates.


Brahmins, 5%
Upper Castes, 15%
Backward Castes, 40%
Muslims, 15%
Dalits [Untouchables] and Tribals, 25%

Indians in the U.S.A.

US Brahmins, 25%
US forward castes, 50%
US backward castes, 25%

The British exported castes as per their requirements.


30% upper caste
40% backward caste
30% Dalit.

In the UK, the British wanted factory workers after WW2, so they did not import dalits (agricultural workers). They imported peasant backward castes from Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab. The British knew that Dalits may not be able to work in factories while the backward castes could be trainable

Later in 1970, Idi Amin fell in love with an Indian woman in Uganda. Her family sent her off to India to protect her from Idi Amin's lust. In revenge, Idi Amin expelled the Indians in Uganda, who were mostly small traders, forward merchant castes, and these went to UK

So, in UK:

Forward caste 60%
Backward caste 40%

Pakistanis in UK are all [descended from] backward castes [who converted to Islam].

In Pakistan, few forward castes and brahmins and dalits converted to islam. They remained hindu and went to Indian Punjab

Pakistanis in Pakistan are [by descent]

Forward caste, 10%
Backward caste 80%
and dalit 10%

Bangladeshis in UK are

Backward caste 50%
Dalit 50%

Similarly, Bangladeshis in Bangladesh are
Backward caste 50%
Dalit 50%

Razib of comments:

US Brahmins, 25%
US forward castes, 50%
US backward castes, 25%

this looks skewed to me. around 50% of indians in the USA are gujaratis, mostly patels. about 25% are punjabis, often sikhs, who mostly be from jats (i think they're classified as backward, but i don't know, i think it depends on region and stuff). the other 25% are mixed up with various groups; a lot of these are brahmins, but not all. for example, christians from kerala are way overrepresented, and they're derived from non-brahmins by and large. i think a brahmin figure on the order of 15% is more realistic. backward caste depends on how you classify it, since south indian non-brahmins are all technically "lower caste," but i think kerala christians are considered forward. in short, bump up the forward caste number, and lower the brahmin and backward.

most of other numbers look OK, but i think a lot of the muslim classifications are by their nature guess work. i have no idea how backward and forward caste in bangladesh is assigned here. 90% of people in bangladesh are now muslim, and most of the hindus remaining are low caste groups who couldn't or wouldn't move to india for whatever reason. the general consensus is most bangladeshi muslim were non-forward caste peasants, as is true of hindus in west bengal. the only thing with bangladeshis in the UK is something like 90% are from one region of bangladesh, syhlet, but i doubt that makes a big difference in your assessment....

i would add a few other points

1) mauritius, mostly backward castes with a small minority of merchants and upper castes

2) south africa, the same (here the upper classes are disproportionately gujarati merchants)

3) the guyana & trinidad & suriname, the same

4) fiji, the same

a disproportionate number of the overseas diaspora in places where they were sent to do agricultural work are from eastern uttar pradesh and bihar; the north-central gangetic plain. malaysia and singapore are exceptional insofar as the indians are mostly tamils from the south from across the bay of bengal....

My published articles are archived at -- Steve Sailer


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Anonymous said...

While you're at it - does anyone have numbers on the Total Fertility Rates for the various castes?

Knowing their IQs is important, but, in the long term, it's meaningless without knowing who is passing their genes on to their children and who is not.

Anonymous said...

What about recent immigrants to Singapore?

Anonymous said...

Sounds like a lot of baloney to me.....

1.) "The British knew that Dalits may not be able to work in factories while the backward castes could be trainable"

I have never seen any evidence whatsoever to support that claim. I also know of no caste requirement that no Dalits migrate to the UK. This claim seems bogus.

2.) I have no idea how he arrived at his estimates, but I can say with a good degree of certainty that there are no hard numbers for the Indian disapora's caste breakdown in the West. Trust me, I've looked.

3.) Caste position and achievement in India is primarily related to which caste's leaders are in political power and who owns the land. If you come from a priviledged caste, you go to school and get ahead. If you come from an unpriviledged caste, you become a laborer. Unlike the U.S., India is racked by wrenching inequality that continues to impede meaningful progress for anyone that's not born into wealth. So estimating a caste's IQ by its economic position is a bit stupid.

4.) India's most economically dominant regions are low caste dominated. Bangalore and the other high tech hubs are in the Southern plateau. 99% literate Kerala is also in the South. The meteoric rise of Shudra-dominated South India has opened up a gap between it and the more upper caste dominated, economically stagnant North. So I'm a little skeptical there's even a strong correlation between India's success and caste composition.

5.) India's high castes are more in a position to immigrate. The low castes are too wretchedly poor to go to school full time and buy a plane ticket to the United States. I see no reason to be surprised that sons of wealthy farm owners are more likely to get educated, progress, and immigrate than the sons of bonded untouchable laborers.

6.) From anecodatal knowledge I have about the descedants of Indian factory workers living in the UK, they're actually doing quite well and have made it into the middle class. Probably around the white mean.

7.) Most of the Indians that ended up in Marutius were backward caste peasants from the bottom of the society and look at how well they're doing for themselves.

Anonymous said...

"Similarly, Bangladeshis in Bangladesh are
Backward caste 50%
Forward caste 50%"

That last line should be Dalit 50%, right?

Razib Khan said...

US Brahmins, 25%
US forward castes, 50%
US backward castes, 25%

this looks skewed to me. around 50% of indians in the USA are gujaratis, mostly patels. about 25% are punjabis, often sikhs, who mostly be from jats (i think they're classified as backward, but i don't know, i think it depends on region and stuff). the other 25% are mixed up with various groups; a lot of these are brahmins, but not all. for example, christians from kerala are way overrepresented, and they're derived from non-brahmins by and large. i think a brahmin figure on the order of 15% is more realistic. backward caste depends on how you classify it, since south indian non-brahmins are all technically "lower caste," but i think kerala christians are considered forward. in short, bump up the forward caste number, and lower the brahmin and backward.

most of other numbers look OK, but i think a lot of the muslim classifications are by their nature guess work. i have no idea how backward and forward caste in bangladesh is assigned here. 90% of people in bangladesh are now muslim, and most of the hindus remaining are low caste groups who couldn't or wouldn't move to india for whatever reason. the general consensus is most bangladeshi muslim were non-forward caste peasants, as is true of hindus in west bengal. the only thing with bangladeshis in the UK is something like 90% are from one region of bangladesh, syhlet, but i doubt that makes a big difference in your assessment....

i would add a few other points

1) mauritius, mostly backward castes with a small minority of merchants and upper castes

2) south africa, the same (here the upper classes are disproportionately gujarati merchants)

3) the guyana & trinidad & suriname, the same

4) fiji, the same

a disproportionate number of the overseas diaspora in places where they were sent to do agricultural work are from eastern uttar pradesh and bihar; the north-central gangetic plain. malaysia and singapore are exceptional insofar as the indians are mostly tamils from the south from across the bay of bengal....

Razib Khan said...

What about recent immigrants to Singapore?

they would probably skew higher since they have been selected for education.

Anonymous said...

Might Indian IQ be adversely affected by a tendency to vegetarianism?

So, while clearly high IQ, Ramanujan's health and productivity was thus affected.

Also the only Indian expat whom I know (a PhD) is also vegetarian, as is his son.

Razib Khan said...

also, the "pakistanis" in the UK are mostly from the mirpur district. i don't think this really changes the model, but perhaps the caste/class breakdown there is different. i don't know.

the best survey you could probably find for caste distribution in south asia would come from the 1931 indian census. you can usually find it in a college library (the map libraries often have it in graphic form).

Razib Khan said...

Might Indian IQ be adversely affected by a tendency to vegetarianism?

upper castes all across india (bengali & kashmiri brahmins are exceptions to the brahmin preference for veg), non-punjabi north/northwest indians tend to be obligate vegetarian. ceteris paribus there is some evidence that vegetarianism reduces your IQ. of course, most meat eaters in south asia don't really eat much meat as is evidenced by the poor nutrition which is normal among the peasantry. kashmiri pandits might be an interesting test case since they eat a lot of meat compared to other brahmins.

also, i would like to add, the only two groups whose caste status is pretty fixed and easy to compare across india are brahmins & dalits. all the other groups are much more fluid in terms of where they rank, or which mega-caste grouping they should be classified with (e.g., kayastha in bengal). in northern india there are large numbers of kshatriyas (rajputs, etc.) and vaishyas (banias, etc.) who are above the sudras but not as ritually clean as brahmins. in south india technically all non-brahmins are sudras since the hinduization of this region was later. some groups basically fill the kshatriya and vaishya roles, but technically they're sudras. historically the classifcation of "backward" and "forward" castes is really fraught with politics (some groups get themselves classified as backward for set asides, etc.)....

Razib Khan said...

) India's most economically dominant regions are low caste dominated.

this isn't really true. gujarat and maharashtra are the most economically successful states, and their caste politics are complicated and not dominated by "lower castes" as in south india. additionally, the whole lower caste domination in south india is to some extent an artifact of the fact that 95% of south indians are by definition lower caste, while a far lower proportion of people in north india states are so defined.

the census of india is here:

Purple Yellow Floral said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Razib Khan said...

From anecodatal knowledge I have about the descedants of Indian factory workers living in the UK, they're actually doing quite well and have made it into the middle class. Probably around the white mean.

you don't need anecdote, you have stuff at your finger tips like the UK census. e.g., indians have higher GCSE scores than whites, but lower than chinese. bangladeshis & pakistanis are closer to blacks. "indians" is really three broad groups, punjabi sikhs, secondary immigrants from east africa (gujaratis of mercentile bent) and all the others. last i checked punjabi sikhs are around the british white median in terms of stuff like income and home ownership, while the east africans are way above, and they are the reason that the indian average is so high.

(at least the chinese make it easy, the overwhelming proportion of the diaspora is cantonese or fujianese)

Anonymous said...

Murray/Hernstein in The Bell Curve made the point that in the absence of opportunities for merit based social mobility there is unlikely to be very much IQ difference between rich and poor, just a few points. Meritocratic societies see much more correlation between wealth, social status, and IQ.
This may not be true in a caste system where there is substantial difference in race and genetic potential, but as I recall Cavalli-Sforza's work on genes indicated that most of the Indian population was basically Caucasoid. So there may not be that much difference in genetic potential between most Indians. It's notable that the descendants of Indians who came as labourers to other countries often become middle class, even market-dominant, eg Trinidad & Tobago. My impression is that there may not be much of a genetic potential IQ gap between backward & forward castes as such. Such gaps as there are seem more likely to be regional, or between Dalits, tribals & the rest.

Razib Khan said...

This may not be true in a caste system where there is substantial difference in race and genetic potential, but as I recall Cavalli-Sforza's work on genes indicated that most of the Indian population was basically Caucasoid.

south asians are outgroups overall to europeans & middle easterners. on most genes they seem closer to europeans & middle easterners than to east asians though. mtDNA place them closer to eastern asians, while Y to europeans. if you look at STRUCTURE based data south asians separate off from other west eurasians at some point, but they're part of the west eurasian group at lower K's.

It's notable that the descendants of Indians who came as labourers to other countries often become middle class, even market-dominant, eg Trinidad & Tobago.

their outcomes in various nations varies. in fiji or trinidad they are relatively market dominant. in singapore or malaysia, not really. in singapore their results are slightly inferior to the chinese majority, and superior to the malays (singstat is a really good resource to check on this), but their variance is very high. in part because of immigration policies the indians in singapore are spread so that in the highest 10th they are somewhat overrepresented, but they are overrepresented at the bottom too (working off memory, you can check singstat). in malaysia they are down the underclass; in 1970 they were between the chinese and malays in economic performance, but with the NEP malays have surpassed them. i believe the richest man in malaysia is a tamil, but the joke is that he owns all the wealth of the whole community. additionally, you have to decompose the south asian communities in many places. in south africa a gujarati muslim elite is extremeley influential; but the non-gujarati non-muslim majority has a much more pedestrian performance.

also, re: trinidad and tobago, it's an oil economy to a great extent.

anyway, it's obviously complicated. but there isn't a south asian equivalent to taiwan. mauritius is doing well, and dubai is powered by south asians on many levels, but they're atypical economies based on their roles as financial entrepots.

Anonymous said...

The concept of caste is so ridiculously complicated in India. It differs greatly from state to state. It's also hard to describe what a forward or backward caste really is.

For example, banias (the merchant caste) are considered backwards in various parts of India, but no one will deny that economically they've always been well off and today they're exceptionally well off. Despite this (and their gross overrepresentation in business, government, education, etc.), they still qualify for quota reservations in many states.

There's two other castes that come to mind Yadavs (dairy farmers) and Kurmis (crop farmers), who are considered "backwards" because of the nature of their work. However, historically they were probably about as well as off as the typical Brahmin, and there's no doubt today that they're much better off even though they still qualify for these generous quota reservations.

I'm a Brahmin from Bihar, though my ancestors gave up priestly duties in the 1700's and took up land in a new fuedal system that was organized in Eastern UP/Bihar. I guess you could say my caste was dominant in this region, though we only make up about 5%. Not everyone was well off though, because we know of ancestors who migrated to Mauritius probably because their land holdings may have been small.

A second point I'd like to make is that I'm generally skeptical of the Aryan invasion stuff, especially as it pertains to IQ. If this was true, you'd see higher IQ's and higher incomes in places like Bihar and UP were supposed Aryan blood predominates. But the fact is South India is doing much better than the North. Probably 90% all of that technology stuff is in the South (and Maharastra). That said though, I think average IQ's across India are probably about the same (once you subtract illiteracy differences), but there may very well be differences amongst caste groups.

Anonymous said...

More thoughts:

I think the biggest issue with Indian IQ is that 35% of the public is illiterate. YES I KNOW THESE IQ TESTS ARE GIVEN VERBALLY. But how do you test a man whose never been to school before, never solved a word problem, never even had to think in the abstract? The fact is if you don't use your brain it doesn't develop.

I would give India another generation to bring its literacy up to 95% or at least 90%, before assessing any value to an population level IQ test.

Anonymous said...

Razib mentioned Guyana in a prior comment. New York City has a substantial Indian immigrant/2nd generation population, and it's divided between those who came directly from India and those who came from Guyana. Anecdotally, at least, the direct-from-India segment does better than the Guyanese segment in terms of income, educational level and so on.

Anonymous said...

i think a brahmin figure [in the US] on the order of 15% is more realistic.

It doesn't help that almost every desi I've met in the US, including a Sikh and an Orthodox Christian from Kerala, claims to be a brahmin.

Anonymous said...

"While you're at it - does anyone have numbers on the Total Fertility Rates for the various castes?"

Higher fertility among scheduled castes (i.e. Dalits) and tribes, though the numbers have dropped across the board, at least in the southern state of Andhra Pradesh.

TFR in 1978

Middle/upper caste: 3.73
Lower caste: 3.78
Tribe: 4.39

TFR in 1998

Middle/upper caste: 2.0
Lower caste: 2.5
Tribe: 2.75

Keep in mind Andhra pradesh may not be representative of India. There are regional differences too: northeast India is booming with babies, the south not so much.

Anonymous said...

"A second point I'd like to make is that I'm generally skeptical of the Aryan invasion stuff, especially as it pertains to IQ. If this was true, you'd see higher IQ's and higher incomes in places like Bihar and UP were supposed Aryan blood predominates."

You can't discount culture - eg Islam and/or Islamic violence may well have a negative effect on on area's economic success and even on its measurable IQ.

Anonymous said...

Jats are considered forward classes in Punjab and this where the population of Jats in the US is mainly drawn from. I believe that a sizeable chunk of the factory workers imported to the UK were jats from Punjab as well. From what I've read on the web, the accounts about which states Jats are considered backward in varies, here is the account from the wiki entry on forward classes:

"Jats found mainly in the Punjab region , Punjab and Haryana, are considered forward class whereas Jats from Delhi, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan are classified as OBC."

Anonymous said...

"In revenge, Idi Amin expelled the Indians in Uganda, who were mostly small traders, forward merchant castes, and these went to UK"


I don't know the percentages, but a significant number of the Indians expelled from Uganda came here. Most went into the motel business, I believe.

- Fred

Anonymous said...

S Africa blacks "necklacing" immigrants from Zimbabwe and Mozambique according to Daily Mail today.
A wave of attacks has taken place in the townships with local blacks attacking the refugees. 20 dead.

Anonymous said...

"this looks skewed to me. around 50% of indians in the USA are gujaratis, mostly patels. "

I believe Patels are only around ~10% of the Indian-American population. I'd say that no one particular group seems to dominate Indian immigration to the U.S. Some groups are overrrepresented though.

"most of other numbers look OK,"

Really? To me, his numbers seem fairly arbitrary. I don't know his sources.

"this isn't really true. gujarat and maharashtra are the most economically successful states, and their caste politics are complicated and not dominated by "lower castes" as in south india. additionally, the whole lower caste domination in south india is to some extent an artifact of the fact that 95% of south indians are by definition lower caste, while a far lower proportion of people in north india states are so defined."

Maharashtra's ranking is bumped up significantly by high cost Bombay. Yeah, Gujarat is wealthy and has been for a while. I'd guess have a large % in the diaspora helps them out quite a lot when the immigrants send home remittances. Many of the new engines of growth (Bangalore, Hyderabad, and Chennai) are Southern though.... So is highy literate and educated Kerala. Meanwhile, the Brahmin-heavy Indo-Gangetic Northern plains continue to languish behind the rest of the nation.

If you compare the Southern region v.s. the upper caste dominated Northern region, you'll see the South exceeds the North a lot of metrics. This should dispel the idea that high castes drive India's economic growth.

you don't need anecdote, you have stuff at your finger tips like the UK census. e.g., indians have higher GCSE scores than whites, but lower than chinese. bangladeshis & pakistanis are closer to blacks. "indians" is really three broad groups, punjabi sikhs, secondary immigrants from east africa (gujaratis of mercentile bent) and all the others. last i checked punjabi sikhs are around the british white median in terms of stuff like income and home ownership, while the east africans are way above, and they are the reason that the indian average is so high."

Then isn't the UK an example of commoners from India performing at or above the white mean? Didn't Lynn find South Asian IQs at an average of 96?

in south africa a gujarati muslim elite is extremeley influential; but the non-gujarati non-muslim majority has a much more pedestrian performance.

Ok, but what about apartheid? Indians seem to have done fairly well, even with all the restrictions on their social and economic activity.....

in part because of immigration policies the indians in singapore are spread so that in the highest 10th they are somewhat overrepresented, but they are overrepresented at the bottom too (working off memory, you can check singstat).

Just remember 2 things

1.) I believe Singapore tested at an IQ of 108. So even the below Singapore-Chinese average performance of Indians is probably at the white mean.
2.) Quite a number of Singapore Indians are the descendants of untouchables. So it seems that even the worst off from India are not doing all the badly......

I think it'd be accurate to say that South Asia is such a convoluted place that estimating IQs is next to impossible at this point. 81 seems ridiculous though....

rec1man said...

Rec1man here

I am defining upper caste as any caste that has a literate tradition for centuries,
This would exclude jats and include many south indian shudra castes


Upper castes = kerala Syrian Xtian, Nair, Velala, Chettiar, Shetty, Lingayat, Bunt, Reddy, Kamma, Chetty, Maratha, Patel, Bishnoi, Kayasth, Khatri, Rajput, Marwari Jain etc

Merchants, Royalty, Landlords, Scribes, Accountants etc
The literate class

Backward castes = Vanniyar, Nadar, Thevar, Vokkaliga, Ezhava, Kunbi, Mali, Teli, Vishwakarma, Yadav, Gujjar, Kurmi, Nai, Jat etc

Middle peasants, small peasants, skilled workers, craftsmen etc


I am also updating my USA model to

Brahmin = 15%
Upper Caste = 60% = Reddy, Patel, kerala Syrian Xtian, etc
Backward Caste = 25% = Jat Sikh, Caribbean Hindu etc

Razib Khan said...

I believe Patels are only around ~10% of the Indian-American population. I'd say that no one particular group seems to dominate Indian immigration to the U.S. Some groups are overrrepresented though.

by "patel" i don't mean the surname, but the whole subcaste. and the surveys i've seen are pretty clear. about half patel, and 1/4 punjabi. the balance is mixed.

If you compare the Southern region v.s. the upper caste dominated Northern region, you'll see the South exceeds the North a lot of metrics. This should dispel the idea that high castes drive India's economic growth.

yes. gujarat is kind of like parts of texas. crappy public services & not great vitals, but good economy. kerala is like north dakota; poor but great vitals.

Keep in mind Andhra pradesh may not be representative of India. There are regional differences too: northeast India is booming with babies, the south not so much.

the highest number of brahmins (at least going by the 1931 caste census) is in really backward and high TFR up...the lowest in the deep south where the TFR is the lowest. so that would change the results (weight by region, etc.)

Sriram said...


You may need to revise your outlook on Gujarat.. I think it may be a case of a state having less variance on IQ (just a hunch) and by all accounts is developing very rapidly (on all fronts including social services) and is leaving maharashtra (neigboring state) way behind on governance. The ones that have the max variance and also possibly somewhat lower means may be places like Bihar (most talented Biharis are elsewhere) and eastern UP.

I also find it curious that Bengalis who probably have more mongoloid admixture tend to particularly good in the visual arts and have good representation among physicists (no hard data).

Anonymous said...

I disagree strongly with Patels being a forward caste. Throughout North India (Bihar/UP) they're considered a backward caste, and they take full advantage of OBC quotas. They're no doubt well off and well educated, but they're not considered a forward caste, and quite frankly they don't want to be considered a forward caste. Same goes for Banias, Jats, etc. Reddy's and other South Indian groups I'm not as sure about.

This whole debate is somewhat ridiculous, IMO. That said, I would limit upper castes purely to Brahmins, Rajputs (warriors/kings), and Kayasthas (scholars).

Razib Khan said...

I also find it curious that Bengalis who probably have more mongoloid admixture tend to particularly good in the visual arts and have good representation among physicists (no hard data).

higgs-boson ;-) bose was a at dhaka university when he was corresponding with einstein from what i recall (he was bengali obviously by the name, i even know his younger sister's granddaughter).

Anonymous said...

WIKIPEDIA can often be a very good source of non-contentious information. The entry about Jats is an excellent example as evidenced by a previous post.

The complexity of this thread would not have made much sense to me as an Englishman. if I had not been curious to learn more about India. Thus I suggest two further links, one of which invites further contributions.

I am not qualified to comment further on this courageous thread,
but I am enjoying the journey.

Thabk you,


Sriram said...

If theres anyone who is knowledgeable from AP around, could they comment on why the rather extensive original wikipedia page on the Rajus which is below

has been completely purged in the current incarnation

Anonymous said...

Checking in from British Columbia, Canada. There are about 250,000 "South Asians" (the official bureaucratese for Indians and Pakistanis) in the province, making them about 6% of the total population. About 80% of them are concentrated in the Greater Vancouver-Fraser Valley area. Almost two-thirds of them are from Punjabi-speaking areas of India and Pakistan. You can verify these figures here. I've worked with many of them, lived near many of them, and gone to school with many of them. I'm familiar with Patels, Zoroastrians and Ismaili Muslims. These are small groups who are all doing pretty well and causing very few problems. The Punjabi-descent group is a different matter. This group comes mainly from the Punjab provinces of India and Pakistan, is largely Sikh or Hindu by religion, and is often ethnically of Jat origin. Typical names are Gill, Dhaliwal, Cheema, Sharma, Dhillon, Dosanjh, Johal and of course Singh.

There is no way this latter group has an average IQ in three digits. Relative to the surrounding population, they tend to shun higher education and skilled trades, preferring to work as truck drivers, taxi drivers, forest industry millworkers, farmworkers, security guards, et cetera. Most have entered Canada through "family reunification", the federal Liberal Party's name for what Americans call chain migration. Some members of the younger generation have a definite disproportionate problem with drugs, alcohol, crime, gangs, and murders, which interested readers can verify here, here, here, here, here, here or here.

Although it seems to be way under the radar in the U.S., you've got this problem too, in places like Yuba City and Fremont, Calif. Oh, and I almost forgot the brainiacs (family name Dhaliwal) who broke into the tiger enclosure at the San Francisco Zoo last Christmas. Those two are not members of the American cognitive elite.

rec1man said...

Rec1man here

By Patel, I mean gujurati patel
Shah, Amin etc

In UP and Bihar, the backward caste Kurmis award themselves the title of patel
Just because a mule calls himself a thoroughbred does not make it so

In UP and bihar, several backward castes like lodh, call themselves Rajputs

In tamil nadu, several dalit castes call themselves velala
( an upper peasant caste ),
but it does not make them so

As I am being very clear
I am basing upper caste not on ritual caste status by
whether it has a tradition of centuries of literate traditions and skills

Hence the bania merchant, considered a backward caste in bihar. is classified here as upper caste

Also the Nairs and Reddys ritually shudras are classified as upper castes here, because of centuries of literate tradition

Of the jats , Inspite of being rich , powerful and fine soldiers, and a few kingdoms do not have a literate tradition
The average jat is a middle class peasant, and in the usa, works as a taxi driver. Hence for my analysis, I am classifying the jats as a backward caste

The term backward caste is an umbrella term and consists of castes like jat and vokkaliga at the high end and at the low end encompasses all ritually clean castes ( non-untouchable )

rec1man said...


Indian IQ and vegetarianism

The tamil brahmin is traditionally 100% vegetarian and the bengali brahmin is an avid fish eater

The bengali brahmin has won nobel prizes in Literature and economics

The tamil brahmin has won 2 nobel prizes in Physics
and dominates IITs, software, nukes, missiles etc
Also the noted math whiz Ramanujam was a tamil brahmin

rec1man said...


Market dominance by backward castes

Of course in many countries the descendants of agricultural workers, backward and dalit castes are market dominant such as in Fiji, and Caribbean

But note the competition in Fiji and Caribbean is weak, Africans and Melanesians. Plus Indians have a low rate of illegitimacy and respect education if it is available

The same class of Indians is not market dominant in south africa and malaysia

rec1man said...


A sizable number of bangladeshi muslims are converts from the hindu dalit Namasudra caste

rec1man said...


Revised estimate of diaspora in
Malaysia and Singapore

Upper caste = 20%
Backward Caste = 40%
Dalit = 40%

( including recent immigrants )
Upper caste = 50%
Backward Caste = 25%
Dalit = 25%

Anonymous said...

yes. gujarat is kind of like parts of texas. crappy public services & not great vitals, but good economy. kerala is like north dakota; poor but great vitals.

I wonder how much of that is related to remittances from the diaspora. I imagine a lot of the motel and gas station owners remit quite a bit to their families back in Gujarat and Bombay.

rec1man, a lot of thoe "upper castes" are more like middle castes in South Asia and others would technically be low-caste Shudras. So I think your categories are fairly arbitrary. As I said above, I think South Asia and the diaspora is too convoluted to use caste breakdown to figure out IQ.

It doesn't seem that surprising to me that certain castes are overrepresented in the diaspora. If a caste has economically and socially progressed more, a much higher % of its members are eligible for education and the opportunity to take advantage of immigration. Independent of IQ, having accumulated wealth is a major asset in a nation as backward and deprived as India.

If you don't have any wealth in India, you'll probably end up as a laborer even if you have a really high IQ. Poor Indian farmers and laborers can't afford to send their kids to high school and college. So I'm skeptical that inferior performance by poorer lower castes (the gap is closing steadily though) is really indicative of lower IQ. In regions of India that have emphasized economic empowerment and education for the lower castes (South India, Punjab, etc.), we've seen tremendous progress. If all of India were this progressive, I bet the caste gaps would be much smaller.

There is also the issue of malnutrition, which afflicts a lot of kids in India.

Anonymous said...

I believe Indo-Canadian family income was at or above the national average. So apparently even the Punjabi taxi drivers are doing fairly well for themselves up north.....

Oh, and about half the Indians in the UK are the descendants of backward caste Jat factory workers. Their children and grandchildren are doing really well though......

Just because a mule calls himself a thoroughbred does not make it so

I liked your comparison (lower caste Indian = mule; upper caste Indian = thoroughbred). No bias there!

The same class of Indians is not market dominant in south africa and malaysia

After whites, Indians are the next most successful group in SA. Quite a lot of the accountants and businessmen in SA are of Indian origin. Not bad for a group that lived under apartheid.

Again, rec1man. Your estimates are fairly arbitary and inane. Please stop spouting on a topic that you clearly are ignorant about.

rec1man said...

Regarding Jats in british columbia, vancouver,

My model predicts that a jat transplanted to the west will
behave exactly as is observed

The typical jat will pass high school with a C and perhaps after 1-2 years of vocational training take up a blue collar entreprenuer profession

I am also not surprised about them working as security guards

Jats are 25% of the Indian army and 60% of the pakistani army

The perfect infantryman

rec1man said...

Zorastrians, Patels, Ismaili muslims, under my model get lumped into forward castes

Also I am well aware my model is a
crude approximation,

I am trying to simplify 40000 subcastes into 5-6 major groupings

and keep in mind, no one else has even attempted this task

Anonymous said...

recman: Again I disagree. No Kurmi in Bihar is going to label himself a "Patel". There's no economic, political, or social advantages to doing so. For that matter, no Dalit, or anyone else is going to want to masquerade as a Patel either. Believe it or not the economy in Bihar was not always so bad, and a generation or two ago it was actually quite good, prompting a lot of people from Western India including Gujuaratis, Rajasthanis, Sindhis, etc. mostly from the merchant castes to settle in our state shortly after independence. All Patels in Bihar are genuine Gujurati Patels, just like you find running motels in West Virginia. And they are not considered "forward castes".

In Bihar and other parts of North India, Patels proclaim their backwards status and take full advantage of quotas. On a social and religious level, they also don't get the acknowledgment of being forward castes from other groups. Sure, they're well educated, rich, and powerful, and they've got a great affirmative action racket going for themselves, but they are not now, nor have they ever been "forward castes". Even on Wikipedia, they're not listed as forward castes.

This whole thing is getting ridiculous, IMO. But we should stick to the facts and not be arbitrary about it. I think it's pretty clear that Brahmins, Rajputs, and Kayasthas are widely - and uncontroversially - accepted as forward castes, and that merchants/craftsmen/peasant farmers have been generally considered backward castes.

rec1man said...

Unlike you who base it on ritual status,
in my model
I place all traditionally literate castes as upper castes
and all non-traditionally literate castes as backward castes
No matter what their ritual status

Hence a Jat maharajah will be classified as backward caste
and a bihari bania and a nair and a tamil chettiar,
will be classified as forward caste

In my model, I assume that something similar to the Ashkenazi IQ effect, but for a much longer time , has happened in India

And therefore I am classifying by traditional literate castes vs the rest

Anonymous said...

"Quite a lot of the accountants and businessmen in SA are of Indian origin. Not bad for a group that lived under apartheid."

Im sure there is a story regarding Indians in SA under apartheid, one which our PC overlords would rather remain untold.

Apartheid presumably denied direct political power to Indians but it doesnt seem that it denied them the chance to trade, acquire skills, buy property etc. One also assumes they werent particularly bothered about inter-breeding with whites and Africans. Something that PC warriors feel is of great significance.

It seems that apartheid worked as advertised for Indians. We are not supposed to notice that, otherwise we might question why it didnt work for Africans, just as non-apartheid isnt working for them now.

Anonymous said...

"Zorastrians, Patels, Ismaili muslims, under my model get lumped into forward castes"

Why should anyone go by your arbitrary model though? These are not generally accepted definitions.

If you went to India and proclaimed that Patels were forward castes, you'd be attacked instantly - by the Patels themselves!

Anonymous said...

The typical jat will pass high school with a C and perhaps after 1-2 years of vocational training take up a blue collar entreprenuer profession

As would the typical white American......

I don't think a caste model is appropriate to predict success in general. India's elite come from many caste backgrounds.

If you want to predict Indian IQs, it might be a good idea to examine present day Marutius. The Indo-Marutians have a decent standard of living (access to education, economic opportunities, enough to eat, high HDI, etc.) and are the descendants of low-caste laborers from poor North Indian villages. I'd say they might be a good reflection of the lower bound on India's full genetic potential. At 14K per capita GDP and a HDI of 0.8, it appears even India's underclass are hardly doing that badly from themselves.....

Anonymous said...

For Malaysia, Bangladesh, Pakistan caste would not be the controlling factor for IQ. Rather residing in an Islamic republic probably reduces IQ by 10 points due to restrictions on human rights and a general lack of scientific spirit.

rec1man said...

You still are not getting my point

As a simplification,
I am classifying for sake of simplicity, all traditionally literate castes as Upper caste ( by abbreviation)
and all non-traditionally literate castes as lower castes ( by abbreviation )
And as I said, ritual caste status is immaterial

You still are not getting the above paragraph

Also, in Gujurat, Patels are classified as forward caste
Patels being able to spot any advantage may well classify themselves as backward castes in bihar to grab some reservations

rec1man said...

Regarding Mauritius,

The diaspora there consists
50% backward caste and 50% dalit
and can be considered as the lower bound of IQ for Indians

Further in Mauritius, there are 15% muslims and 30% africans which also drag down per capita GDP

shows GDP in dollars as $7billion
with a population of 1.3 million
giving a per capita gdp of $5500

rec1man said...

Regarding Pakistan and bangladesh
IQ depends on caste composition - 10 IQ points due to the intellectually stultifying effects of islam

And IMHO, the islam effect ( -10 IQ ) is why the middle east, iran and north africa which all used to be civilised are showing IQ = 84

In Singapore, I dont think the islam effect loses more than 2-3 IQ points since Lee Kuan Yew has clipped the powers of the mullah

rec1man said...

Indians in Apartheid South Africa


Indians were forbidden from owning houses in certain areas and had a separate inferior schooling system
and banned from many trades ( reserved for whites ) and historically banned from the white college system

In addition, for several decades, non-xtian marraiges were not recognised leading to all hindus and muslims being classified as bastards. This was one of the grievances of Gandhi's agitations in south africa

rec1man said...

On Mauritius again
in dollar GDP terms, it has a $7 billion GDP with a 1.3 million population

This gives a per capita gdp of $5500

Given that 15% of the populace is muslim and 30% is black african

The hindu per capita gdp is probably 30% more than the average = $7000

And given that this hindu populace consists of agricultural workers
50% dalit and 50% backward caste

This blend can be compared to the trend line in IQ and wealth of nations

rec1man said...

has a graph in log scale of IQ vs per capita GDP

and for a $6000 annual gdp in mauritius, you can interpolate the gdp and benchmark it to a blend of 50% dalit and 50% backward caste

rec1man said...

Let me re-summarise

Per Indian surveys,
the Indian population consists of

Brahmin = 5% (Historically fluent both in sansksrit and local language )
Historically Advanced Literate
( upper castes ) = 15% ( primarily local language, secondarily in sanskrit )
Historically Basic Literate
( backward caste ) = 40% ( only local language )
Muslim = 15%
Historically illiterate ( Dalits, Tribals ) = 25%

The estimated diaspora is as follows
USA = 15% brahmin, 60% upper caste, 25% backward caste
UK = 60% upper caste, 40% backward caste
Fiji, Caribbean, South Africa =
50% backward caste, 50% dalit
Malaysia = 20% upper caste, 40% backward caste, 40% dalit
Singapore = 50% upper caste, 25% backward caste, 25% dalit

rec1man said...

I estimate islam reduces IQ by 10 points in third world countries
for the following reasons

The spiritual vatican of the taliban is in Deoband, near Delhi
and Deobandi mullahs are influential in all of south asia

The mullahs try to ban female education, ban female employment, wrap them in burkhas and make them into baby making machines
Plus there is widespread polygamy

Islam also bans free thinking

The mullahs have also banned tv in many muslim areas
The mullahs have also banned polio vaccination, for fear that it is a birth control ploy

Now for some caveats
The Ismaili muslims are followers of Agha Khan who preaches a very lax form of islam and allows women to be educated and work, and hence I dont expect an IQ penalty for the Agha-khanis

rec1man said...

Indian Literacy
In 1947, the literacy rate in
british India was 6% and in the princely states
( rule by maharajahs )
was 11%
Meaning the literacy rate in native states was twice than that under british rule

Earlier in the 19th century, due to punitive taxation and policy
the british destroyed the native school system
The current macaulay system was introduced only circa 1850

Of course the curriculum in the native indian schools was not modern, but literacy of a medieval sorts was provided and many castes had extensive access to education

Factual records gleaned from the notes of British officials in Indian provinces testify contrary to the prevailing views among the educated classes in our country. The Indian education system at the end of the 18th century compared more than favourably with the system in England about the same time. In all respects, be it the number of schools and colleges proportionate to the population; the number of students; the quality of teachers; the financial support provided from public and private sources; the high percentage of students from the lower castes, and the range of subjects taught; the Indian system of the time was in a better position than the British.

I draw upon Shri Dharampal's book. The Beautiful Tree, (Biblia Impex, Delhi, 1983} extensively to demonstrate this. Shri Dharmpal, a noted Gandhian and historian, did extensive research in India and abroad and draws mainly from British records of 18th and early 19th centuries. He draws heavily from the reports and writings of English officers (not historians) like Thumas Munro, John Bright, William Lam, and William Digby, Dr. G.W. Leitner and others. In 1812-13, Thomas Munro reported that for areas of the Madras Presidency "every village had a school". Later as Governor of the Madras Presidency he reviewed reports to estimate that "there is one school for every 1000 of the population".

William Adam, a former Baptist missionary turned Journalist, in first report in 1835 observed that every village had at least one school; and that there seemed to be about 1,00,000 schools in Bengal and Bihar in the 1830s. G.L.Prendergast, Bombay Presidency council member stated in 1821 "that in the newly extended Presidency of Bombay "there is hardly a village, great or small, throughout our territories, in which there is not at least one school, and in larger villages more."

In his report on indigenous education in the Punjab, Dr. G.W. Leitner, one time Principal of Government College, Lahore, and for some time acting Director of Public Instruction in the Punjab, stated that "there was not a mosque, a temple, a dharmasala that had not a school attached to it." These observations made in 1852 show that the spread of education in the Punjab around 1850 was of a similar extent to that in Bombay.

In the districts of Madras Presidency and two districts of Bihar for which data is available, it was found that children from communities termed 'Sudras' and the castes considered below them predominated in the thousands. In the Tamil-speaking areas of Madras Presidency, 'Sudras' and 'AtiSudras' comprised 70-80 per cent of all school going children.

There were 11,575 schools with 1,57,195 children in Madras Presidency and there were 1,094 colleges. Nearly 25 per cent of all children used to go to school

rec1man said...

It is well known that south india does much better than north india

It is also well known that south indians tend to be higher IQ than the equivalent north Indian caste

This can be explained as the
effect of the islamic invasions of north India

In north India, muslims average 18%
and in south India they tend to average 10% ( except for kerala )

Since islam is fully mullahised in south asia, there is an islam IQ penalty of 10 in south asia

The higher muslim % in north india tends to drag down average IQ and levels of governance

Muslims tend to riot over everything and in north indian cities, muslims are 33% of the urban population and feel free to kill some kafir hindus whenever they feel like it

Kerala in south india is an exception that it has good indicators despite a 25% islamic presence. The difference is that kerala muslims are descendants of arabic merchants unlike invaders in north India and kerala muslims are wealthy and have a 90% literacy rate

In addition, during the islamic invasions of north India, they destroyed pretty much over 30000 hindu temples and as part of the attempts to spread islam, massacred several hundred thousand brahmins, ( the more prominent, higher IQ ones )

Thus north India tends to have a truncated IQ at the high end, since the muslims massacred high IQ community leaders in order to terrorise the rest of the hindus to convert to islam

In addition, the muslims in north india tended to come from urban artisan backward castes and then subtract 10 IQ points for islam

rec1man said...

The brahmin Software advantage

It is well known that brahmins and other advanded literate castes in
India have a math advantage since decimal numbers were invented in India ( just think of doing math with roman numerals )

Similarly it has been a recent phenomenon, that brahmins are doing well in software

There is a historical reason behind this

In 500 BC, a Sanskrit grammarian, Panini
codified sanskrit with clean grammar and syntax rules

Panini's work is much of the foundation behind computer languages

In theory, brahmins are fluent in sanskrit and the rules of Panini grammar in sanskrit and the rules of software languages are very similar

From wikipedia


For other uses, see Panini (disambiguation).

Pāṇini (IAST: Pāṇini, Devanāgarī: पाणिनि; a patronymic meaning "descendant of Pani") was an ancient Indian grammarian from Gandhara (fl. 4th century BC[1][2]).
( Panini worked in Taxila University in 500 BC. Today Taxila is in Pakistan, NWFP, the home of the islamic taliban barbarians )
His rules have a reputation for perfection — that is, they are claimed to describe Sanskrit morphology fully, without any redundancy. A consequence of his grammar's focus on brevity is its highly unintuitive structure, reminiscent of contemporary "machine language" (as opposed to "human readable" programming languages). His sophisticated logical rules and technique have been widely influential in ancient and modern linguistics.
In Optimality Theory, the hypothesis about the relation between specific and general constraints is known as "Panini's Theorem on Constraint Ranking". Paninian grammars have also been devised for non-Sanskrit languages. His work was the forerunner to modern formal language theory (mathematical linguistics) and formal grammar, and a precursor to computing.[6]

Panini's use of metarules, transformations, and recursion together make his grammar as rigorous as a modern Turing machine. The Backus-Naur form (Panini-Backus form) or BNF grammars used to describe modern programming languages have significant similarities to Panini grammar rules. Panini's grammar can be considered to be the world's first formal system, well before the 19th century innovations of Gottlob Frege and the subsequent development of mathematical logic. To design his grammar, Panini used the method of "auxiliary symbols," in which new affixes are designated to mark syntactic categories and the control of grammatical derivations. This technique was rediscovered by the logician Emil Post and is now a standard method in the design of computer programming languages.

rec1man said...

The race of the Indian aryans

Often during Indian IQ discussions, the impact of Aryan race is raised


The following is from the Rig Veda, the earliest Aryan text , 2000BC
and even then there were wide skin color variations within the Indian aryan peoples

In addition, the laws of Manu, which deal with inter-caste relationships allow for hypergamy
in limited numbers and upper caste men are allowed to marry lower caste women and the children are raised in the father's caste


Turning to the Vedas for any indication whether the Aryans had any colour prejudice, reference may be made to the following passages in the Rig Veda:

In Rig Veda, i. 117.8, there is a reference to Ashvins having brought about the marriage between Shyavya and Rushati. Shyavya is black and Rushati is fair.

In Rig Veda, i. 117.5, there is a prayer addressed to Ashvins for having saved Vandana who is spoken as of golden colour.

In Rig Veda, ii. 3.9, there is a prayer by an Aryan invoking the Devas to bless him with a son with certain virtues but of (pishanga) tawny (reddish brown) complexion.

These instances show that the Vedic Aryans had no colour prejudice. How could they have? The Vedic Aryans were not of one colour. Their complexion varied; some were of copper complexion, some white, and some black. Rama the son of Dasharatha has been described as Shyama, i.e., dark in complexion, so is Krishna the descendant of the Yadus, another Aryan clan. The Rishi Dirghatamas, who is the author of many mantras of the Rig Veda, must have been of dark colour if his name was given to him after his complexion. Kanva is an Aryan rishi of great repute. But according to the description given in the Rig Veda — x. 31.11 — he was of dark colour.

To take up the third and the last point, namely, the meaning of the word Varna. Let us first see in what sense it is used in the Rig Veda. The word Varna is used in the Rig Veda in 22 places. Of these, in about 17 places the word is used in reference to deities such as Ushas, Agni, Soma, etc., and means lustre, features or colour. Being used in connection with deities, it would be unsafe to use them for ascertaining what meaning the word Varna had in the Rig Veda when applied to human beings. There are four and at the most five places in the Rig Veda where the word is used in reference to human beings. They are: i. 104.2; i. 179.6; ii. 12.4; iii. 34.5; ix. 71.2.

Anonymous said...

India's diversity makes it near impossible to get something like this done. The caste system in different states is an incomprehensible maze even to people within India. From the first post it's obvious the methodology is highly shaky. Standard statistical techniques and sampling plans fail to work in India. The simplest test of this is election polling. There is a tremendous interest in India at both state level and national elections to predict the winner or winning coalition. However, time and again the polling results fall completely flat. I am not talking here about things being off in the margins - failures are huge (this is true for state level elections and polls conducted by people with intimate knowledge of the terrain). Will follow through the rest of the posts but the conclusions are going to be highly dubious even if they are above 100 or below 80 ! I wouldn't trust anything that will be bandied about.

rec1man said...

Varna continued

One of the many meanings of Varna is skin color and this has led to the common claim that the Aryan-Non Aryan divide was a racial divide in India
White Northern Aryans vs Dark Southern Dravidians has become accepted by many


There are four and at the most five places in the Rig Veda where the word is used in reference to human beings. They are: i. 104.2; i. 179.6; ii. 12.4; iii. 34.5; ix. 71.2.

Do these references prove that the word Varna is used in the Rig Veda in the sense of colour and complexion? ... The question is: What does the word Varna mean when applied to Dasa? Does it refer to the colour and complexion of the Dasa, or does it indicate that Dasas formed a separate class? ...

The evidence of the Rig Veda is quite inconclusive. In this connection, it will be of great help to know if the word occurs in the literature of the Indo–Iranians and if so, in what sense.

Fortunately, the word Varna does occur in the Zend Avesta. It takes the form of Varana or Varena. It is used specifically in the sense of “Faith, Religious doctrine, Choice of creed or belief.” It is derived from the root Var which means to put faith in, to believe in. One comes across the word Varana or Varena in the Gathas about six times used in the sense of faith, doctrine, creed or belief… This evidence from the Zend Avesta as to the meaning of the word Varna leaves no doubt that it originally meant a class holding to a particular faith and it had nothing to do with colour or complexion.

The conclusions that follow from the examination of the Western theory may now be summarised. They are:

(1) The Vedas do not know any such race as the Aryan race.

(2) There is no evidence in the Vedas of any invasion of India by the Aryan race and its having conquered the Dasas and Dasyus, supposed to be natives of India.

(3) There is no evidence to show that the distinction between Aryans, Dasas and Dasyus was a racial distinction.

(4) The Vedas do not support the contention that the Aryans were different in colour from the Dasas and Dasyus.

rec1man said...

anonymous wrote
India's diversity makes it near impossible to get something like this done. The caste system in different states is an incomprehensible maze even to people within India.

Just as the pollsters are making an approximation, I am also making an approximation
I am fully aware of that


I think my efforts are significantly above what has been spread around

Think what happens when someone who has read Indian IQ as 81 and also has some racial prejudices against dark south indian people
and underestimates what he is facing when he comes up against
a dark brown tamil brahmin with 150 IQ


rec1man said...

The pre-alphabetical period in India, 3000BC to 500BC
The earliest alphabetical script in India is called Brahmi and appears first in south India ( dravidian homeland ) around 500 BC
The Brahmi script is the great grandmother of all the scripts in India, Tibet and South east asia
as far as Philippines

The importance of alphabetical scripts is that now language can be phonetically accurate

The previous script in India was the Indus valley script, which dates back to 3000 BC
The Indus valley script looks like egyptian heiroglyphics and has not been deciphered so far
Which is why no one knows what happened in India from 3000BC to 2000BC ( Rig Veda )

While the Indus valley script may have been adequate for commerce
there is no way it can be phonetically perfect

Unlike english which is only 65% phonetically perfect and has many non-phonetic spellings ( silent alphabets etc ), brahmi derived scripts are phonetically perfect

Tamil has about 250 unique phonetic alphabets and Hindi and Sanskrit have about 600 unique phonetic alphabets

English is able to get away with only 26 alphabets because the alphabets are not phonetically unique and the same alphabet has a different pronunciation in different contexts


Traditional hinduism started off as a form of shamanism

In the fire sacrifices, butter was poured on the flames

Each time you poured in the butter, the brahmin priest had to make a specific invocation ( a magic spell ) to a deity

'Om --middle stuff - Swaha'

Swaha in sanskrit asks Agni ( the fire god / messenger ) to transmit the butter and the invocation to the specific god invoked

If you watched Harry Potter
the magic spell has to correctly pronounced or it is ineffective

If you also watched horror movies
when someone invokes a demon
they had to sit inside a geometrical shape and light candles in certain specified orders
and make correctly pronounced invocations

The sanskrit ceremonies can be described as magic ceremonies to invoke certain gods and had to be phonetically accurate, the fire altar had to geometrically accurate
The time of the ceremony had to be accurate.

Some of these invocations had to repeated 108 times, 1008 times, 100,008 times or even 10000,008
In the case of very large numbers of invocations involved, the invocations were divided up among hundreds of brahmin chanters

If an invocation was repeated an inaccurate number of times, it was ineffective and so an accurate count of very large numbers and accurate division was very important

In addition, in some very complex ceremonies, invocations to multiple gods were involved and these had a certain order

god A was invoked X number of times and the god B was invoked Y number of times and god C was invoked Z number of times

An inaccurate magic invocation was useless
So there was a religious quest for accuracy and precision in pronounciation, time measurement and geometry and numbers

To make matters more complicated
by 1000 BC, sanskrit , the scriptoral language, became a dead language ( like latin ) and the common people used a degenerate language pali ( which is the scriptoral language of Theravada Buddhism since 500 BC)

The net result was from at least 2000BC ( date of Rig veda ) to ( 500BC) The brahmin priest had to orally transmit the scriptures
along with its math component perfectly. In addition from 1000 BC onward the brahmin had to be fluent in at least 2 languages

This created intense darwinian pressures among the brahmins

Kings hired only brahmins who could perform the ceremonies accurately with accurate chanting,
the rest went extinct or moved to other professions

The upper classes also soon recognised that the religious skills of the brahmins also created a specialisation in math, and languages and brahmins were also kept as school teachers, royal advisors ( to the semi-literate kings )

So the brahmin tradition extends from at least 2000BC and the transmission upto 500BC was purely oral

Similarly to a lesser extent , and comparable to Ashkenazi jews, the merchant castes who were involved in trade, usury and banking had to develop math skills and language skills or go extinct

Sanskrit was also the language of the elite , of legal contracts, of diplomats and the other upper castes , merchants etc had to be reasonably fluent in sanskrit
So the merchants also had to be fluent in 2 languages to a somewhat lesser extent than the brahmins

The math of the merchants was more basic , interest computations etc

rec1man said...

Thai race brahmins

Meeting the Rajaguru

Sri Siridhornkul arranged an interview with Phara Rajaguru Vamadevamuni, the Royal Priest of the Royal Household of Thailand, for Saturday evening. We met at Rajaguru's temple, called Devasthana Bosth Brahmana, located in the Sao Ching Cha area of Bangkok. Rajaguru's lineage of brahmins had been in Thailand so long, and intermarried with the Thai community, that he is completely Thai in appearance.

rec1man said...

The oral brahmin tradition

The Oral Mathematical Tradition

Mathematicians of ancient and early medieval India were almost all Sanskrit pandits (paṇḍita "learned man"),[13] who were trained in Sanskrit language and literature, and possessed "a common stock of knowledge in grammar (vyākaraṇa), exegesis (mīmāṃsā) and logic (nyāya)."[13] Memorization of "what is heard" (śruti in Sanskrit) through recitation played a major role in the transmission of sacred texts in ancient India. Memorization and recitation was also used to transmit philosophical and literary works, as well as treatises on ritual and grammar. Modern scholars of ancient India have noted the "truly remarkable achievements of the Indian pandits who have preserved enormously bulky texts orally for millennia."[14]

[edit] Styles of Memorization

Prodigous energy was expended by ancient Indian culture in ensuring that these texts were transmitted from generation to generation with inordinate fidelity.[15] For example, memorization of the sacred Vedas included up to eleven forms of recitation of the same text. The texts were subsequently "proof-read" by comparing the different recited versions. Forms of recitation included the jaṭā-pāṭha (literally "mesh recitation") in which every two adjacent words in the text were first recited in their original order, then repeated in the reverse order, and finally repeated again in the original order.[16] The recitation thus proceeded as:
word1word2, word2word1, word1word2; word2word3, word3word2, word2word3; ...

In another form of recitation, dvaja-pāṭha[16] (literally "flag recitation") a sequence of N words were recited (and memorized) by pairing the first two and last two words and then proceeding as:
word1word2, word(N-1)wordN; word2word3, word(N-3)word(N-2); ...; word(N-1)wordN, word1word2;

The most complex form of recitation, ghana-pāṭha (literally "dense recitation"), according to (Filliozat 2004, p. 139), took the form:
word1word2, word2word1, word1word2word3, word3word2word1, word1word2word3; word2word3, word3word2, word2word3word4, word4word3word2, word2word3word4; ...

That these methods have been effective, is testified to by the preservation of the most ancient Indian religious text, the Ṛgveda (ca. 1500 BCE), as a single text, without any variant readings.[16] Similar methods were used for memorizing mathematical texts, whose transmission remained exclusively oral until the end of the Vedic period (ca. 500 BCE).

rec1man said...

The math traditions of the Merchant caste jains

Jaina Mathematics (400 BCE - 200 CE)

Although Jainism as a religion and philosophy predates its most famous exponent, Mahavira (6th century BC), who was a contemporary of Gautama Buddha, most Jaina texts on mathematical topics were composed after the 6th century BCE. Jaina mathematicians are important historically as crucial links between the mathematics of the Vedic period and that of the "Classical period."

A significant historical contribution of Jaina mathematicians lay in their freeing Indian mathematics from its religious and ritualistic constraints. In particular, their fascination with the enumeration of very large numbers and infinities, led them to classify numbers into three classes: enumerable, innumerable and infinite. Not content with a simple notion of infinity, they went on to define five different types of infinity: the infinite in one direction, the infinite in two directions, the infinite in area, the infinite everywhere, and the infinite perpetually. In addition, Jaina mathematicians devised notations for simple powers (and exponents) of numbers like squares and cubes, which enabled them to define simple algebraic equations (beezganit samikaran). Jaina mathematicians were apparently also the first to use the word shunya (literally void in Sanskrit) to refer to zero. More than a millennium later, their appellation became the English word "zero" after a tortuous journey of translations and transliterations from India to Europe . (See Zero: Etymology.)

rec1man said...

Indian mathematics was transmitted through the arabs and given to europe

In Arabic madrasas ( schools ) mathematics is called Hind-sa

( Hindu knowledge )

In addition, Pythagoras went to India for math learning and he started a sect called
Pythagoreans who were vegetarians and believe in transmigration
These concepts have their roots in India and only upper caste hindus are historically vegetarians and transmigration is the core of buddhism, jainism and hinduism

There are over 30 million math manuscripts in India

Fields of Indian mathematics

Some of the areas of mathematics studied in ancient and medieval India include the following:

* Arithmetic: Decimal system, Negative numbers (see Brahmagupta), Zero (see Hindu-Arabic numeral system), the modern positional notation numeral system, Floating point numbers (see Kerala School), Number theory, Infinity (see Yajur Veda), Transfinite numbers, Irrational numbers (see Sulba Sutras)
* Geometry: Square roots (see Bakhshali approximation), Cube roots (see Mahavira), Pythagorean triples (see Sulba Sutras; Baudhayana and Apastamba state the Pythagorean theorem without proof), Transformation (see Panini), Pascal's triangle (see Pingala)
* Algebra: Quadratic equations (see Sulba Sutras, Aryabhata, and Brahmagupta), Cubic equations (see Mahavira and Bhaskara), Quartic equations (biquadratic equations; see Mahavira and Bhaskara)
* Mathematical logic: Formal grammars, formal language theory, the Panini-Backus form (see Panini), Recursion (see Panini)
* General mathematics: Fibonacci numbers (see Pingala), Earliest forms of Morse code (see Pingala), Logarithms, indices (see Jaina mathematics), Algorithms, Algorism (see Aryabhata and Brahmagupta)
* Trigonometry: Trigonometric functions (see Surya Siddhanta and Aryabhata), Trigonometric series (see Madhava and Kerala School)

rec1man said...

Even by 1000BC, brahmins had familiarity with numbers upto a trillion

The religious texts of the Vedic Period provide evidence for the use of large numbers. By the time of the last Veda, the Yajurvedasaṃhitā (1200-900 BCE), numbers as high as 1012 were being included in the texts.[20] For example, the mantra (sacrificial formula) at the end of the annahoma ("food-oblation rite") performed during the aśvamedha ("horse sacrifice"), and uttered just before-, during-, and just after sunrise, invokes powers of ten from a hundred to a trillion:[20]

"Hail to śata ("hundred," 102), hail to sahasra ("thousand," 103), hail to ayuta ("ten thousand," 104), hail to niyuta ("hundred thousand," 105), hail to prayuta ("million," 106), hail to arbuda ("ten million," 107), hail to nyarbuda ("hundred million," 108), hail to samudra ("billion," 109, literally "ocean"), hail to madhya ("ten billion," 1010, literally "middle"), hail to anta ("hundred billion," 1011, lit., "end"), hail to parārdha ("one trillion," 1012 lit., "beyond parts"), hail to the dawn (uśas), hail to the twilight (vyuṣṭi), hail to the one which is going to rise (udeṣyat), hail to the one which is rising (udyat), hail to the one which has just risen (udita), hail to the heaven (svarga), hail to the world (loka), hail to all."[20]

Anonymous said...

In addition, Pythagoras went to India for math learning


rec1man said...

Some common caste stereotypes
( found on the web )

One Bihari = Laloo Prasad Yadav.
Two Biharis = booth-capturing squad.
Three Biharis = caste killing.
Four Biharis = entire literate population of Patna.

One Mallu = coconut stall.
Two Mallus = a boat race.
Three Mallus = Gulf job racket.
Four Mallus = oil slick.

UP Bhaiyya
One UP bhaiyya = a milkman.
Two UP bhaiyyas = halwai shop.
Three UP bhaiyyas = a fist-fight in the UP assembly.
Four UP bhaiyyas = mosque-destruction squad.

One Gujju = share-broker in a Bombaytrain.
Two Gujjus = rummy game in a Bombaytrain.
Three Gujjus = Bombay's noisiest restaurant.
Four Gujjus = stock market scam.

One Andhraite = chili farmer.
Two Andhraites = software company in New Jersey.
Three Andhraites = Naxalite outfit.
Four Andhraites = song-and-dance number in a Telugu movie.

One Kashmiri = carpet salesman.
Two Kashmiris = carpet factory.
Three Kashmiris = terrorist outfit.
Four Kashmiris = shoot-at-sight order.

One Tam-Brahm = priest at the Vardarajaperumal temple.
Two Tam-Brahms = Maths tuition class.
Three Tam-Brahms = Queue outside the U.S consulate at 4 a.m.
Four Tam-Brahms = Thyagaraja music festival in Santa Clara.

One Sindhi = currency racket.
Two Sindhis = papad factory.
Three Sindhis = duplicate goods shop in Ulhasnagar.
Four Sindhis = Hong Kong Retail Traders Association.

One Marwari = The neighbourhood foodstuff adulterator.
Two Marwaris = 50% of Calcutta.
Three Marwaris = Finish off all Gujaratis & Sindhis.
Four Marwaris = Threaten the Jews as a community.

rec1man said...

Cross-checking the estimate of Mauritius Indian Diaspora IQ of 88

The british used indenture labor
( contract labor ) to replace the natives in Fiji (for sugar cane farming )
In Mauritius and Caribbean to replace Africans for sugarcane
farming and in South Africa to provide coolie labor ( semi-skilled labor ) to augment the African natives

The indentured workers selected were a mix of 50% Dalit and 50% backward caste and predominantly illiterate so that the british could cheat them on the terms of their labor contract

I am going to compare my 88 IQ estimate for Mauritius with the similar blend Indian diaspora in Fiji and South Africa

Fiji Indians
in 1973 = 84 raw score
Adjusted to 85 in 1975 by flynn effect and in 2008 should be 90 adjusting for Flynn effect

South Africa

Steve Sailer gives an average of 83 based on 2 IQ tests
First, 77 raw IQ in 1925, ( by adjusting for Flynn effect should this not be closer to 93 by now )

Second , 88 raw IQ in 1990, adjusted by Flynn effect to 90 in 1992

In the same table, Steve Sailer has a white IQ in 1990
raw score 94, adjusted by Flynn to 96

There is no white score for 1925
which would move the white average much lower than 94
By looking at UK, white scores in 1925 would probably be 85

In short white IQ is based on a single 1990 test, whereas the Indian IQ is based on an average of 1925 and 1990 scores


Further even in 1990, the Indian populace was suffering from the effects of apartheid
had a separate and inferior school and college system and Indians were banned from many trades and banned from living in decent white areas

Even then, in 1990, this Indian diaspora had reached 90 IQ, and may be 93 by now, adjusted for Flynn
So 88 IQ for Mauritius Indian is a very conservative number

rec1man said...

But according Flavius Filostratus records Pythagoras in 5th century BC and Apollonius of Tyana in the 1st century CE went to study in India.

rec1man said...

Calibrating my IQ model

In my model
Dalits, 15% and Tribals 10% are lumped together as same IQ

However, I remember reading some surveys from about 30 years ago
that the Tribals had an IQ between
the Dalits and backward castes

So I am being conservative in lumping the tribal IQ with Dalit iQ


Next I am making the assumption that no group can be lower than African IQ

This would mean that Dalit and Tribal IQ would be at least 80
( if relocated to the west )

rec1man said...

My next calibration level
is the Backward Caste, Historically basic literate,

Based on a 50% Dalit + 50% Backward caste level = 88 IQ ( mauritius )

and Dalit IQ = 80

Backward Caste IQ = ( 88 - 0.5*80)/0.5

Backward Caste IQ = 95

This estimate roughly matches the performance of the Jat sikh diaspora ( historically basic literate )in the UK and Vancouver
( high school complete, blue collar middle class )

Next, muslims in India are mostly converts from urban backward castes
and should therefore reflect hindu backward caste IQ - 10 Islam IQ penalty

Indian Muslim IQ = 95 - 10 = 85

In current Indian literacy surveys,
Indian muslims are between backward castes and dalits
and that matches my model



25% Dalits and Tribals = 80 IQ
15% Muslim = 85 IQ
40% Backward Caste = 95 IQ

rec1man said...


25% Dalit and Tribal = 80 IQ
15% Muslim = 85 IQ
40% Backward Caste = 95 IQ
15% Upper Caste = 110 IQ
The only item missing is the 5% brahmins

I am not going to do an estimation of brahmin IQ , until the rest of this blog can digest what I have posted and I am able to answer any queries satisfactorily

Making a worst case assumption that
Brahmin IQ is no more than Upper caste IQ , would give a brahmin IQ estimate of 110

My private real numbers are a lot higher, but I wont stir up a controversy , until we reach a consensus on average Indian iQ

Average Indian IQ = 0.25*80 + 0.15*85 + 0.40*95 + 0.15*110 + 0.05*110 = 92.75

The upper caste + brahmin segment = 20% of 1.1 billion = 220 million
at near Ashkenazi levels

rec1man said...

Estimating IQ of Diaspora in USA

I am assuming that due to selective immigration pressures, the IQ of any caste in the USA is 5 points more than the parent caste in India

Backward Caste in USA = 95+5 = 100 IQ
Upper Caste in USA = 110+5 = 115 Q

Based on SAT scores, the Indian diaspora in USA, IQ = Ashkenazi IQ = 115

Also per consensus, the Diaspora in USA, consists of 25% backward castes, 60% upper castes and 15% brahmins

Brahmin USA Immigrant IQ
=( 115 - 0.25*100 - 0.60*115 ) / 0.15

rec1man said...

List of 2nd generation outstanding south Indian brahmin kids
Most brahmins in USA are south Indian brahmins

Thursday, May 22, 2008; Page C12

Nebraska Sixth-Grader Takes On the World

Standing onstage yesterday holding a big cardboard check representing the $25,000 college scholarship he had just won in the 20th annual National Geographic Bee, 11-year-old Akshay Rajagopal said: "It just feels like I'm really special."

1985 - balu natarajan
1988 - ragashree ramachandran
2002 - pratyush buddiga
2003 - sai gunturi
2005 - anurag kashyap


In addition, Vinodhini Vasudevan is also a south indian brahmin

12-Year-Old Who Scored Perfect SAT Score Wants To Remain A `Regular' Kid
E-Mail this report to a friend

Sonia Chopra

Vinodhini (Vino) Vasudevan When Vinodhini (Vino) Vasudevan says she wants to keep away from the media, many people are surprised

How can the first 12-year-old to score a perfect 1,600 on the SAT want to keep away from the media, many wonder. The test is conducted for gifted children by researchers at Johns Hopkins University. Of the 600,000 gifted seventh- and eighth-graders the program has tracked through two decades, Vino is the first to earn perfect scores on both the math and verbal portions of the college-admissions test, said Claudia Burns, program coordinator.

rec1man said...

Brahmin domination in IIT faculty
and students

Brahmin communities dominate IIT-Chennai faculties. Totally there are 427 faculties available. Out of this, 400 faculty persons belong to Brahmin communities


On a related topic: I did an informal survey a couple of years ago on the top 100 IIT entrants - incredibly, newspapers here in India list the 100 or so highest ranked IITians each year. 17 happened to be Tamil Brahmins. Quite mind-boggling considering they're only around .4% of the Indian population

rec1man said...

IQ Estimate of Brahmin Immigrant to USA

Indian Backward Caste = 95
Indian Backward Caste in USA = 100
Indian Forward Caste = 110
Indian Forward Caste in USA = 115

Next , per Arthur Hu's Table of 1995 SAT, Indian Hindu SAT = Jewish SAT = 115


My initial estimate of US diaspora
was Brahmin 25%, Forward Caste = 50%, Backward Caste = 25%

Brahmin in USA, IQ
=( 115 - 0.50*115 - 0.25*100 )/0.25
= 130

Razib suggested that the blend
was 15% Brahmin, 60% Forward Caste, 25% backward caste

Brahmin in USA, IQ

=( 115 - 0.60*115-0.25*100 )/0.15
= 140

I dont believe this number, because it does not match what I predict from internal IQ in India


Let me offer an alternative blend
for Indian immigrants to USA
Brahmin = 20%, Forward Caste = 60%,
Backward caste = 20%

Brahmin IQ in USA =
( 115 - 0.60*115 - 0.20*100 )/0.20
= 130

This I tend to find more believable based on local IQ phenomenon in India and the ferocious 70% anti-brahmin quota in Tamil Nadu
and the fact in Tamil Nadu,
Quotas were demanded by Upper Caste South Indian Tamils
( 115 IQ in Singapore )
way back in 1920, to shield them from the full implications of the Tamil Brahmin IQ


So from previous calculations
Brahmin IQ in USA = 130
These brahmins are predominantly south Indian brahmins


South Indian Brahmin in India = 130 - 5 = 125
North Indian Brahmin = 125 - 5 = 120 ( due to islamic massacres )


Let us re-summarize
( African in west = 80 IQ )
North Indian Dalit, 12% = 80 IQ
Tribal , 10% = 80 IQ
Muslim, 15% = 85 IQ
South Indian Dalit, 3% = 85 IQ
North Indian (Jat) Peasant , 32% = 95 IQ
South Indian (Ezhava) Peasant, 8% = 100 IQ
North Indian (Patel-Motel) Merchant, 12% = 110 IQ
South Indian (Chettiar) Merchant, 3% = 115 IQ
( for those believing in racial theories, very many chettiars are jet black in color, as black as africans )
( And Indian merchants have been through Ashkenazi type darwinian pressures for 3000 years as opposed to only 1000 years for the Ashkenazi )
North Indian Brahmin ( Indira Gandhi / Nehru ), 4% = 120 IQ
South Indian Brahmin ( Vish Anand, world chess champion, Ramanujam the math whiz ), 1% = 125 IQ

Average = 94

Now this will take 2-3 generations to achieve

In addition, the effect of the islamic massacres ( 5 IQ ) means that the pre-islamic invasion Indian IQ was 94+5 = 99


In addition, it is dumb to use Indian IQ numbers in pakistan and bangladesh, since the caste composition is lower IQ grade ore and the islam effect reduces IQ by 10

This can be seen by the fact that Indian nukes and missiles are indigenous, whereas pakistani nukes were a gift of the chinese commies and pakistani missiles are Nodongs from North Korea

The Indian unmanned moon shot is later this year, whereas Pakistan and Bangladesh will never have a space program, unless gifted by someone else

In bangladesh, a large number of school teachers are still brahmins
( those who have not left for India )


rec1man said...

What it takes to get into an IIT

My GRE math 780 and verbal 670,
total 1450 gives me a 147 IQ

I did not get into IIT

I would estimate that 150 IQ is the floor IQ needed to get into an IIT


The facilities in IIT are 2nd or 3rd tier by western standards, what makes the difference is the undergraduate engineering students have a floor IQ of 150


In Tamil Nadu, due to the brutal anti-brahmin affirmative action programs, it takes over 150IQ for a brahmin to get into medical school


I have 7 siblings, cousins and nieces who are between 140-155 IQ

Sriram said...


A suggested exercise: Estimate IQ variation across Indian states using your model and see how that holds up as a predictor for outcomes.

I suspect homogeneity will turn out to be important as a moderator of IQ effects. States that are more homogeneous will do better, for the same mean IQ (Gujarat?).

The 10 point islam penalty probably varies (with the penalty being greater in the middle of the spectrum than at the tails)

A couple of my posts didnt make it on this thread. I suggested that you move the discussion to a separate blog or email group (e.g., google groups)and also the possibility of using Indian entrance exam distributions for triangulating.

rec1man said...

Harry Potters wand vs the Brahmins Fire Altar

Just as Harry potters magic is worthless if either his wand was damaged or his spell was not accurate

The brahmins chant to invoke the spirits and gods would not work with an inaccurate fire altar or inaccurate chant

Incidentally the closely related Zorastrians of Persia also had a similar fire altar

The vedic god Mitra traveled from India to Rome and his birthday is celebrated on Dec 25,
Constantine was still a Mitraic Bishop, at the council of Nicea

Until 100 AD, the brahmin religion only consisted of fire altars
Idol worship started only after 100 AD because the buddhists who had started making Buddha idols started drawing away too many adherents of the brahmins. So if you cant beat them, join them, was the idea for brahmins to also start idol temples of their own to draw in the masses

The domestic fire-altar in the Vedic period was required by ritual to have a square base and be constituted of five layers of bricks with 21 bricks in each layer. One method of constructing the altar was to divide one side of the square into three equal parts using a cord or rope, to next divide the transverse (or perpendicular) side into seven equal parts, and thereby sub-divide the square into 21 congruent rectangles. The bricks were then designed to be of the shape of the constituent rectangle and the layer was created. To form the next layer, the same formula was used, but the bricks were arranged transversely.[19] The process was then repeated three more times (with alternating directions) in order to complete the construction.


The Śulba Sūtras (literally, "Aphorisms of the Chords" in Vedic Sanskrit) (c. 700-400 BCE) list rules for the construction of sacrificial fire altars.[22] Most mathematical problems considered in the Śulba Sūtras spring from "a single theological requirement,"[23] that of constructing fire altars which have different shapes but occupy the same area. The altars were required to be constructed of five layers of burnt brick, with the further condition that each layer consist of 200 bricks and that no two adjacent layers have congruent arrangements of bricks.[23]

rec1man said...

Similarities between Druids and brahmins



The Celt's priestly caste, the Druids, has become a part of modern folklore. Their identity is claimed by New Age enthusiasts likely to appear at annual solstice gatherings around the ancient megaliths of northwest Europe. While sincerely motivated by a desire to resurrect Europe's ancient spiritual ways, Ellis says these modern Druids draw more upon fanciful reconstructions of the 18th century than actual scholarship.

The Druids of the ancient Celtic world have a startling kinship with the brahmins of the Hindu religion and were, indeed, a parallel development from their common Indo-European cultural root which began to branch out probably five thousand years ago. It has been only in recent decades that Celtic scholars have begun to reveal the full extent of the parallels and cognates between ancient Celtic society and Vedic culture.

The Celts were the first civilization north of the European Alps to emerge into recorded history. At the time of their greatest expansion, in the 3rd century bce, the Celts stretched from Ireland in the west, through to the central plain of Turkey in the east; north from Belgium, down to Cadiz in southern Spain and across the Alps into the Po Valley of Italy. They even impinged on areas of Poland and the Ukraine and, if the amazing recent discoveries of mummies in China's province of Xinjiang are linked with the Tocharian texts, they even moved as far east as the area north of Tibet.
The Druids were not simply a priesthood. They were the intellectual caste of ancient Celtic society, incorporating all the professions: judges, lawyers, medical doctors, ambassadors, historians and so forth, just as does the brahmin caste. In fact, other names designate the specific role of the "priests." Only Roman and later Christian propaganda turned them into "shamans," "wizards" and "magicians." The scholars of the Greek Alexandrian school clearly described them as a parallel caste to the brahmins of Vedic society.

The very name Druid is composed of two Celtic word roots which have parallels in Sanskrit. Indeed, the root vid for knowledge, which also emerges in the Sanskrit word Veda, demonstrates the similarity. The Celtic root dru which means "immersion" also appears in Sanskrit. So a Druid was one "immersed in knowledge."

The ancient Irish law system, the Laws of the Fénechus, is closely parallel to the Laws of Manu. Many surviving Irish myths, and some Welsh ones, show remarkable resemblances to the themes, stories and even names in the sagas of the Indian Vedas.

Comparisons are almost endless. Among the ancient Celts, Danu was regarded as the "Mother Goddess." The Irish Gods and Goddesses were the Tuatha De Danaan ("Children of Danu"). Danu was the "divine waters" falling from heaven and nurturing Bíle, the sacred oak from whose acorns their children sprang. Moreover, the waters of Danu went on to create the great Celtic sacred river--Danuvius, today called the Danube. Many European rivers bear the name of Danu--the Rhône (ro-Dhanu, "Great Danu") and several rivers called Don. Rivers were sacred in the Celtic world, and places where votive offerings were deposited and burials often conducted. The Thames, which flows through London, still bears its Celtic name, from Tamesis, the dark river, which is the same name as Tamesa, a tributary of the Ganges.

Not only is the story of Danu and the Danube a parallel to that of Ganga and the Ganges but a Hindu Danu appears in the Vedic story "The Churning of the Oceans," a story with parallels in Irish and Welsh mytholgy. Danu in Sanskrit also means "divine waters" and "moisture."


There survives the famous first century bce Celtic calendar (the Coligny Calendar) which, as soon as it was first discovered in 1897, was seen to have parallels to Vedic calendrical computations. In the most recent study of it, Dr. Garret Olmsted, an astronomer as well as Celtic scholar, points out the startling fact that while the surviving calendar was manufactured in the first century bce, astronomical calculus shows that it must have been computed in 1100 bce.

One fascinating parallel is that the ancient Irish and Hindus used the name Budh for the planet Mercury. The stem budh appears in all the Celtic languages, as it does in Sanskrit, as meaning "all victorious," "gift of teaching," "accomplished," "enlightened," "exalted" and so on. The names of the famous Celtic queen Boudicca, of ancient Britain (1st century ce), and of Jim Bowie (1796-1836), of the Texas Alamo fame, contain the same root. Buddha is the past participle of the same Sanskrit word--"one who is enlightened."

rec1man said...

IMHO, a careful study of IQ in various Indian states will show a strong co-relation between IQ and economy

States that are muslim infested will show a decline thanks to the 10 point IQ loss of the muslims themselves and the 5 point IQ loss they inflicted on the hindu populace, by massacring the community leaders

The 10 point Islam deficit is simply an average estimate

The Agha Khani ismaili muslims have zero deficits
Wheras the Taglibi Meo muslims
who have a fertility of 7, womens illiteracy of 97% and banned tv in their villages are possiblly 15 IQ points in deficit

rec1man said...

Historical GDP of India as % of World GDP

During all this time the caste system has existed


World = 100%

1 AD
India = 32.9%
China = 26.2%
Roman Empire = 21.5%

1000 AD
India = 28.9%
China = 22.7%
Western Europe = 8.7%

( Muslim invasions of north India started 1000 AD )

1500 AD
China = 25%
India = 24.5%
UK = 1.1%

1600 AD
China = 29.2%
India = 22.6%
UK = 1.8%

1700 AD
India = 24.4%
China = 22.3%
Western Europe = 22.1%

( British colonialism in Indiawas started 1750 )

1820 AD
China = 32.9%
India = 16%
UK = 5.2%

( UK started opium war on china in
1840 )

1870 AD

UK = 24.1%
China = 17.2%
India = 12.2%
USA = 8.9%

1913 AD
UK = 21.1%
USA = 19.1%
China = 8.9%
India = 7.6%

1950 AD
USA = 27.3%
UK = 6.5%
China = 4.5%
India = 4.2%

( Fabian socialism in india until slowly relaxed starting 1991 )

1973 AD
USA = 22%
China = 4.6%
India = 3.1%

1998 AD
USA = 21.9%
China = 11.5%
India = 5.0%

rec1man said...

Historical studies indicate that the University of Nalanda was established 450 CE under the patronage of the Gupta emperors, notably Kumaragupta.[1]

[edit] Description of Nalanda University
Pilgrimage to
Holy Sites
The Four Main Sites
Lumbini · Bodh Gaya
Sarnath · Kushinagar
Four Additional Sites
Sravasti · Rajgir
Sankissa · Vaishali
Other Sites
Patna · Gaya
Kosambi · Mathura
Kapilavastu · Devadaha
Kesariya · Pava
Nalanda · Varanasi
Later Sites
Sanchi · Ratnagiri
Ellora · Ajanta
view • talk • edit

Nalanda was one of the world's first residential universities, i.e., it had dormitories for students. It is also one of the most famous universities. In its heyday it accommodated over 10,000 students and 2,000 teachers. The university was considered an architectural masterpiece, and was marked by a lofty wall and one gate. Nalanda had eight separate compounds and ten temples, along with many other meditation halls and classrooms. On the grounds were lakes and parks. The library was located in a nine storied building where meticulous copies of texts were produced. The subjects taught at Nalanda University covered every field of learning, and it attracted pupils and scholars from Korea, Japan, China, Tibet, Indonesia, Persia and Turkey.[2] The Tang Dynasty Chinese pilgrim Xuanzang left detailed accounts of the university in the 7th century.

In 1193, the Nalanda University was sacked by Bakhtiyar Khilji[19]; this event is arguably seen by modern Brahiminist scholars as a milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India. Legend has that the only thing Khilji asked was if there was a copy of the Koran at Nalanda before he sacked it. The Persian historian Minhaz, in his chronicle the Tabaquat-I-Nasiri, reported that thousands of monks were burned alive and thousands beheaded,[20] and the burning of the library contin­ued for several months and "smoke from the burning manuscripts hung for days like a dark pall over the low hills."[21]. When the Tibetan translator Chag Lotsawa (Chag Lo-tsa-ba, 1197 - 1264) visited the site in 1235, he found it damaged and looted, with a 90 year-old teacher, Rahula Shribhadra, instructing a class of about seventy students, apparently with the support of a local Brahmin.[22][23].

rec1man said...

Gini Coefficient measures the amount of income inequality between the top 10% and bottom 10%

The lower the Gini coefficient, the less the inequality

In India,the Gini coefficient is the same as in USA and significantly less than in China
and much much less than in latin america

rec1man said...

Vinod Khosla's 3rd cousin

In one of the articles on vdare,
The issue was raised that by chain immigration, eventually vinod khosla's 3rd cousin may be imported who may drive a cab


Vinod Khosla is a Khatri
a northern merchant caste
of average IQ 110, between chinese and Ashkenazi levels

His 3rd cousin at worst may run a motel like the patels

Some other Khatris in USA
Sabeer Bhatia
Vinod Dham
Bobby Jindal


More Khatris in venture capital

Shiv Grewal
Sr.Partner,Stradling Yocca,Carlson & Rauth

Naren Bakshi
Founder, Versata, and CEO, Jumpstar

Arjun Malhotra
CEO and Chairman, Headstrong

Kanwal Rekhi
Managing Director, Inventus Capital

rec1man said...

Russians tap into Indian IQ
This is not sold to china


The BrahMos has been developed as a joint venture between the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) of India and the Federal State Unitary Enterprise NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM) of Russia under BrahMos Aerospace. The missile is named after two rivers, the Brahmaputra and the Moskva.
Propulsion is based on the Russian Yakhont missile, and guidance has been developed by BrahMos Corp. At speeds of Mach 2.5 to 2.8, is about three and a half times faster than the American subsonic Harpoon cruise missile.


At speeds of Mach 2.5 to 2.8, is about three and a half times faster than the American subsonic Harpoon cruise missile.


The high speed of the BrahMos likely gives it better target-penetration characteristics than lighter subsonic cruise-missiles such as the Tomahawk.[2] Being twice as heavy and almost four times faster than the Tomahawk, the BrahMos has almost 32 times the initial kinetic energy of a Tomahawk missile


BAPL is contemplating a hypersonic mach 8 version of the missile, named as the BrahMos 2. BrahMos 2 will be the first hypersonic cruise missile and is expected to be ready by 2012-13

rec1man said...
Chandrayaan I (Sanskrit: चंद्रयान-1, lit: Lunar Craft), is an unmanned lunar mission by the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO). The mission includes a lunar orbiter as well as an impactor

ISRO also announced that planning has now made enough progress that they are confident that the mission will take place in June or July of 2008. They estimate the cost to be INR 3.8 billion (US$ 83 million).


ISRO is also planning a second version of Chandrayaan named: Chandrayaan-II. According to ISRO Chairman G. Madhavan Nair, "The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) hopes to land a motorised rover on the moon in 2010 or 2011, as a part of its second Chandrayaan mission.

rec1man said...

Indian Soft Power

This is transmitted by the Merchant and brahmin castes

In general, the direction of Soft Power Flow, is from higher IQ to lower IQ


Entire south east asia,
Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, South Vietnam, Indonesia and Malaysia and Bali, Tibet
took their religion, alphabets, and entire civilization from India,
rather than the much more genetically closer China
The Khmer empire in Cambodia ( which created Angkor Vat ), was started when a Khmer princess married a brahmin called Kaundinya

Even now, Bali remains hindu
and is a bright spot compared to the rest of islamic Indonesia
When the Hindu Majapahit empire in Indonesia fell to its jihadist islamic neighbors, the priests, merchants and elite castes fled to bali

To a lesser extent, China, Japan, Korea and Vietnam, took Sanskritic
Mahayanist Buddhism ( which is heavily hinduised form of buddhism
with thousands of hindu gods )
Several Korean, Chinese and Japanese and all Vietnamese emperors were buddhists

How many Indian kings were Confucianists ?

The Shaolin Martial Arts temple in China was opened by an Indian buddhist monk
Bodhi Dharma

In the west, since 1830, the Unitarian Church ( highest SAT score ) has been heavily influenced by hinduism
Even now, many of their sermons involve extracts from hindu texts
In 1825 , a baptist missionary, Adam, to Calcutta, tried to convert a brahmin Ram Mohun Roy,
Who in turn gave an alternate greek translation/interpretation of the bible and converted Adam to unitarianism
Adam later returned to the US as an important figure in the Unitarian Church

Only the elite in the west are into
Yoga, Vegetarianism, New Age, etc
All brahminical concepts


Every year, thousands of young jews, Once finishing army duty, attend Tibetan buddhist classes in India



The kingdom of Fu-nan went through great political instability in the first half of the fourth century. Towards the end of the century, an Indian king Kaundinya, was elected king. He was a brahman and totally Brahmanised the country. Chinese annals talk of another great King, Jayavarman who sent a number of embassies to China. There are Sanskrit inscriptions to prove the family' s existence. It was subsequently conquered by the rulers of Kambuja.

The kingdom of Kamboja was situated in North-Eastern Cambodia. According to legend it was founded by Kambu Svayambhuva, the King of Aryadesa (India). Near Laos was their family temple dedicated to Lord Shiva called Bhadresvara Siva. The last ruler of this family ruled till around 681 A.D.

Kambuja became a powerful kingdom that comprised of the whole of Cambodia,Cochin-China and parts of Laos. It continued its glorious career for nearly seven hundred years.


Fan Wen, a general became ruler in 336 A.D. In an attempt to expand his kingdom he was continuously at war with the Chinese but died in the process. His son, grandson carried the war forward with both sides claiming success. His grandson, Bhadra-varman was a scholar who studied the Vedas. War with the Chinese continued who sacked the city of Champa in 446 A.D. and secured 1 lac pounds of pure gold. Subsequent kings paid a tribute to the Chinese, the last known king to have done so was around 757 A.D.


Although a continuos history of the kingdom is not available, there existed several Hinduised kingdoms according to Hiuen Tsang ie Srikshetra ( Lower Burma ), Dvaravati ( most of Siam ), Isanpura ( Kambuja ), Maha-Champa ( Champa ). Dvaravati was inhabited by Mons who adopted Hindu culture. They also lived in lower Burma called Ramannedesa. Also Hindu colonists settled in North Burma. There is a record of a Hindu dynasty called Sri-Dharmarajanuja-vamsa ruling Arakan between 600 to 1000 A.D. The famous Buddha image Mahamuni was the deity of Arakan.


The geographical position of Malay peninsula made it the center of trade between India and the Far East. Takkola, modern day Takua Pa, was the first landing point for Indian traders. Ruins of shrines, images, Sanskrit inscriptions are found at Takua Pa. These prove that Hindu colonies existed all over the peninsula about the fourth or fifth century A.D. Details of Hindu colonists have been preserved in Chinese chronicles. The colonies were large in number and situated in places likeChumpon, Yala (near Patani), Malacca, the most imp being that of Nakhon Sri Dhannnarat ( Ligor). It was a great Buddhists colony which probably built the the great stupa of Nakon Sri Dhammarat. Available evidence suggests that the Bay of Bandon was the cradle of Further Eastern culture, where colonies of Brahmans survive who trace their descent from India.


The earliest Hindu kingdom known in Sumatra is Sri-Vijaya (Palembang), founded on or around the 4th century A.D. and rose to great prominence towards the close of the seventh century. In 684 A.D it was ruled by a Buddhist king Sri-Jayanaga. Sri-Vijaya fast grew into a naval and commercial power. The neighboring states made obeisance to him. The king had extended his supremacy over the Malaya peninsula as far as the Bay of Bandon, before 775 A.D. Several embassies were sent to China during the late seventh century too.

All in all, it appeared to be a powerful kingdom.


There were several Hindu kingdoms in Java. Two of these, called Cho-po and Ho-lo-tan by the Chinese sent regular embassies to China in the fifth century a.d. According to Chinese chronicles there were ten kingdoms in Java, the most imp one being Ho-Ling ( period 618-906). Ho-Ling is generally recognized as the Chinese form of Kalinga. The leading kingdom was named after the eastern kingdom of Kalinga. It may be inferred that this was due to a stream of immigration from Kalinga. This indicates close relations between Java and the Kalinga country. The pre-dominance of Indian civilization in Western Java is proved by the Sanskrit inscriptions of Purna-Varman.


The Hindu colonization in Eastern Borneo is proved by seven Sanskrit inscriptions found at Muara Kaman on the Mahakam river, an important sea-port in those days. These kingdoms were established at the end of the fourth century a.d. if not before. The King Mula-varman performed a sacrifice called Bahusuvarnaka ( large qty of gold ). A number of Brahamanical and Buddhists images were found along the Mahakam river.


The Hindus had colonized the island of Bali before the sixth century A.D. The King family's name was Kaundinya. He sent an envoy to China in A.D. 518. The Chinese give a detailed account of the splendors of the Court and there is hardly any doubt that in the sixth century, Bali was a rich & civilized Hindu Kingdom professing Buddhism.

rec1man said...

Indian DNA studies


Stephen Oppenheimer and Toomas Kivilsid

“If we were to use the same arithmetic and logic (sensu haplography 9 is Neolithic) to give an interpretation of this table, (Table 17.3), the straightforward suggestion would be that both (Neolithic) agricultural and Indo-European languages arose in India and from there, spread to Europe (emphasis in the original)”.


The so called Aryan Y marker is M17 also called R1A1

This is common and has a deep genetic roots in kashmir

Kashmiris can pass for greeks and italians


The ancestral Y gene to R1A1 is
R1A and this gene has found to have deep genetic roots in the Chenchu,
a forest tribe in South India

In short, African ( black ) begat Chenchu tribal ( brown ) begat Kashmiri ( dark White ) begat European ( white )

rec1man said...

Deliberate Impoverishment and starvation under british rule

India has twice the arable land as china ( china is mostly desert )
and in the 19th century, the population was 5 times smaller

Even under the incompetent post 1947 Indian govt there have been no large scale famines

Wheras churchill killed off 3 million bengali peasants in WW2 by taking away rice for the war effort

In addition the british shut down the native textile industries so as not to compete with english factories, leading to impoverishment of millions of Indian artisans

The british also imposed the zamindari system a breed of tax-collector landlords who had to pay the british a high rate of fixed tax and in return could tax the peasants at any rate limited only by greed

The peasants were also forced away from food crops to grow opium to ship to china

British Induced Famines

# 1770: territory ruled by the British East India Company experienced the first Bengal famine of 1770. An estimated 10 million people died.

# 1800-1825: 1 million Indians died of famine
# 1850-1875: 2.5 millions died in Orissa famine of 1866, Rajputana famine of 1869; due to a generous relief effort, however, there was no mortality in the Bihar famine of 1873–74.
# 1875-1902: 7–8 million Indians died of famine (Great Famine of 1876–78 5.25 millions)
# In 1943, India experienced the second Bengal famine of 1943. Over 3 million people died.


The British record on famines in India is a mixed one. The first major famine that took place under British rule was the Bengal Famine of 1770. About a quarter to a third of the population of Bengal starved to death in about a ten month period. East India Company's raising of taxes disastrously coincided with this famine [7] and exacerbated it even if the famine was not caused by the British regime [8].

In 1866 the rains failed again in Bengal and Orissa. Food was rushed into the famine stricken zones. The result of which was that the famine was alleviated in Bengal although a Monsoon in Orissa forced the closure of the harbour. As a result food could not be imported into Orissa as easily as Bengal [10]

In 1874 the response from the British authorities was better. Famine was completely averted.

Then in 1876 a huge famine broke out in Madras. Lord Lytton's administration believed that 'market forces alone would suffice to feed the starving Indians' [11]

The results of such thinking proved fatal (some 5.5 million starved [

rec1man said...

A recent dna study

shows linguistic and genetic map


Global perspective

The study also investigated what the genetic variations in Indian populations reveal when viewed from a global perspective. This was done by carrying out a comparison with the genetic profiles of the HapMap populations by porting what are called Tag SNPs from the HapMap populations onto the Indian populations.

Interestingly, it was found that all the HapMap populations, except those of African descent (YRI), namely, the Chinese (CHB), the Japanese (JPT) and the Caucasian (CEU), were well represented among the Indian population. The isolated populations of the Himalayan belt are closest to the Chinese and Japanese and separate from the rest of the populations. The YRI, on the other hand, lay statistically farther away from the Indian populations and closest to the single outlying population group (from the 55) labelled as OG-W-IP. As expected, the CEU was found to be closest to the Indo-European-speaking LPs, the majority of whom are in the north.

rec1man said...

The Toba Theory of human IQ development

Also using info from Stephen Oppenheimer, Real Eve

During the ice ages, 85000 years ago

The sea level receded and the southern route near the horn of africa opened up

The beach combers followed the coast all the way to Australia by 70K years ago

North of India was ice desert and was occupied by Neanderthal man
Neanderthal remains have been found from 60K years ago in Afghanistan

Later when the sea levels rose many of these beach combers got isolated in islands
Such as Andamans where there are pygmy negritos even today

The base African IQ is 70 and the beach combers also had 70 IQ as do the Australian aborigines

Next at 70k years , in Indonesia, the Mount Toba volcano erupted and spewed ash towards the north west, namely India

Oppenheimer writes that India was covered on average by one foot of volcanic ash, which would have led to mass extinctions and severe darwinian pressures on the survivors

So 70K years ago, India had a volcanic winter and DNA studies show a severe genetic bottleneck at this time

DNA studies show that less than 2500 survived, lets say
250 per tribe and 10 tribes in all

Due to founder effect and genetic drift , isolation , and severe inbreeding, racial differences start to begin getting fixed in the sub-populations

The volcanic winter would have meant that the survivors were selected for at least 85-IQ, up from 70-IQ african
And some tribes would be having even higher IQ
85 IQ would be the floor

Human civilization starts because of the upward IQ filter of the Toba eruption

In my model ,the southern dalit is at 85 IQ and the northern Dalit
due to islamic massacres is 80 IQ

rec1man said...

IQ depression in non-african peoples

-10 due to islam in middle east and north africa

Among the amerinds, the colonialists selectively massacred the elite

The catholic destruction of maya scriptures is well known

Just as islam reduced IQ by 5 in north India, we can assume a 5 IQ reduction among Amerinds due to colonial massacres

IMHO, once these distortions are accounted for,
the basal IQ for non-african peoples is around 90

rec1man said...

Pre-historic hindu state in the middle east

Some theonyms, proper names and other terminology of the Mitanni exhibit an Indo-Aryan superstrate, suggesting that an Indo-Aryan elite imposed itself over the Hurrian population in the course of the Indo-Aryan expansion. Some scholars take this as an adstrate.

In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni (between Suppiluliuma and Matiwaza, ca. 1380 BC), the deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya (Ashvins) are invoked. Kikkuli's horse training text includes technical terms such as aika (eka, one), tera (tri, three), panza (pancha, five), satta (sapta, seven), na (nava, nine), vartana (vartana, round). The numeral aika "one" is of particular importance because it places the superstrate in the vicinity of Indo-Aryan proper as opposed to Indo-Iranian or early Iranian (which has "aiva") in general.

rec1man said...

Northern Merchants IQ at least 110

They have successfully outcompeted the established Ashkenazi jewish diamond merchants of brussels
The Indian diamond trade, dominated by the close-knit Palanpuri Jain community, is now eyeing bigger, pricier stones. Surat companies are now setting up branches in New York and Tel Aviv, Israel, and learning from cutters in Belgium and Israel.

Indeed, Indian diamond traders are progressively displacing the Jewish community that dominated this trade in Belgium's diamond city - Antwerp - and are now calling for better representation on Antwerp's High Diamond Council, the powerful regulatory body in the trade. This, Indian traders say, has raised the ire of some of the other global diamond trading communities.

In fact, in a provocative report, the Wall Street Journal said recently that, "Indians are among the world's most successful newcomers. They have reinvigorated the jewelry districts in New York and Hong Kong and revived the US motel industry; they are among the programmers of choice in Silicon Valley and Berlin. In the global diamond world, Indians have been so successful that they are challenging Jewish dealers, even in Tel Aviv. About 80 percent of all polished diamonds sold worldwide pass through Indian hands."

rec1man said...

The Fire Priest and the Magician

There are 4 vedas ( holy books in sanskrit ), dating from 2000BC - 1500 BC, 3 of them were composed by the fire priests and contains invocations to various of the estimated 330 million gods

The 4th veda is called the Atharva veda. This contains love potions, spells, magic, and invokes elemental and nature spirits.
Here again exact chanting and exact numeracy was involved
They did not use the fire altars
This was handled by the Atharvan brahmins ( Magicians )

In 1500 BC, the chief of the fire priests Vyasa, married the daughter of the Maha-Atharvan ( head of the Atharvans ) and the Atharvan brahmin community and their Veda was merged into the mainstream brahmin caste


Now among Indo-European languages,
Indo-Iranian form a very close knit clade and have very few differences
Until Zoraster, 900 BC introduced mono-theism, the iranians worshipped the same gods as the hindus

The Parsees in India consist mainly of Iranian priests and merchants ( who fled to India to escape the muslims ) and are probaby 2-3 SD above the norm IQ
( the rest stayed back in Iran and
converted to islam )

A similar thing happened in bali
which consists mainly of hindu elite brahmins and merchants while the rest stayed back in indonesia and converted to islam

Now going back to 2000BC - 1500BC,
the iranians also had 2 types of
Fire Priests - Hotris
Magicians - Atharvans

The Iranians bordered with Southern Russia and Turkey,
the Celtic homeland before 1500 BC
The celts reached ireland only by 1000 BC

Think of Druids, and Merlin pops to mind. Royal Advisor, not King.
The germans and slavs dont seem to have had a druid class

Iron weapons are known in the veda texts, 2000-1500 BC

The hypothesis I am offering is that some celtic tribes, circa 1500 BC, bordering the iranians took on some high IQ atharvans (druids) as royal advisors ( to politically outmaneovre their rivals) and their iron weapons and their magic
( this was a very superstitious age ) and expanded west to Ireland

rec1man said...

Losing an Edge, Japanese Envy India's Schools

Losing an Edge, Japanese Envy India's Schools
But even in this fad-obsessed nation, one result was never expected: a growing craze for Indian education.

Japanese are feeling a sense of insecurity about the nation's schools, which once turned out students who consistently ranked at the top of international tests. That is no longer true, which is why many people here are looking for lessons from India, the country the Japanese see as the world's ascendant education superpower.

Bookstores are filled with titles like "Extreme Indian Arithmetic Drills" and "The Unknown Secrets of the Indians." Newspapers carry reports of Indian children memorizing multiplication tables far beyond nine times nine, the standard for young elementary students in Japan.

And Japan's few Indian international schools are reporting a surge in applications from Japanese families.

At the Little Angels English Academy & International Kindergarten, the textbooks are from India, most of the teachers are South Asian, and classroom posters depict animals out of Indian tales. The kindergarten students even color maps of India in the green and saffron of its flag.

Little Angels is located in this Tokyo suburb, where only one of its 45 students is Indian. Most are Japanese.

Viewing another Asian country as a model in education, or almost anything else, would have been unheard-of just a few years ago, say education experts and historians.
Much of Japan has long looked down on the rest of Asia, priding itself on being the region's most advanced nation.

Grudgingly, Japan is starting to respect its neighbors.

"Until now, Japanese saw China and India as backwards and poor," said Yoshinori Murai, a professor of Asian cultures at Sophia University in Tokyo. "As Japan loses confidence in itself, its attitudes toward Asia are changing. It has started seeing India and China as nations with something to offer."

While China has stirred more concern here as a political and economic challenger, India has emerged as the country to beat in a more benign rivalry over education. In part, this reflects China's image in Japan as a cheap manufacturer and technological imitator. But India's success in software development, Internet businesses and knowledge-intensive industries in which Japan has failed to make inroads has set off more than a tinge of envy.

Most annoying for many Japanese is that the aspects of Indian education they now praise are similar to those that once made Japan famous for its work ethic and discipline: learning more at an earlier age, an emphasis on memorization and cramming, and a focus on the basics, particularly in math and science.

India's more demanding education standards are apparent at the Little Angels Kindergarten, and are its main selling point. Its 2-year-old pupils are taught to count to 20, 3-year-olds are introduced to computers, and 5-year-olds learn to multiply, solve math word problems and write one-page essays in English, tasks most Japanese schools do not teach until at least second grade.

Indian education is a frequent topic in forums like talk shows. Popular books claim to reveal the Indian secrets for multiplying and dividing multiple-digit numbers. Even Japan's conservative education ministry has begun discussing Indian methods, said Jun Takai of the ministry's international affairs division.

Eager parents try to send their children to Japan's roughly half dozen Indian schools, hoping for an edge on the competitive college entrance exams.

In Tokyo, the two largest Indian schools, which teach kindergarten through junior high, mainly to Indian expatriates, received a sudden increase in inquiries from Japanese parents starting last year.

The Global Indian International School says that 20 of its some 200 students are now Japanese, with demand so high from Indian and Japanese parents that it is building a second campus in the neighboring city of Yokohama.

The other, the India International School in Japan, just expanded to 170 students last year, including 10 Japanese. It already has plans to expand again.

Japanese parents have expressed "very, very high interest" in Indian schools, said Nirmal Jain, principal of the India International School.

The boom has had the side effect of making many Japanese a little more tolerant toward other Asians.

The founder of the Little Angels school, Jeevarani Angelina — a former oil company executive from Chennai, India, who accompanied her husband, Saraph Chandar Rao Sanku, to Japan in 1990 — said she initially had difficulty persuading landlords to rent space to an Indian woman to start a school. But now, the fact that she and three of her four full-time teachers are non-Japanese Asians is a selling point.

"When I started, it was a first to have an English-language school taught by Asians, not Caucasians," she said, referring to the long presence here of American and European international schools.

Unlike other Indian schools, Ms. Angelina said, Little Angels was intended primarily for Japanese children, to meet the need she had found when she sent her sons to Japanese kindergarten.

"I was lucky because I started when the Indian-education boom started," said Ms. Angelina, 50, who goes by the name Rani Sanku here because it is easier for Japanese to pronounce. (Sanku is her husband's family name.)

Ms. Angelina has adapted the curriculum to Japan with more group activities, less memorization and no Indian history. Encouraged by the kindergarten's success, she said, she plans to open an Indian-style elementary school this year.

Parents are enthusiastic about the school's rigorous standards.

"My son's level is higher than those of other Japanese children the same age," said Eiko Kikutake, whose son Hayato, 5, attends Little Angels. "Indian education is really amazing! This wouldn't have been possible at a Japanese kindergarten."

rec1man said...

The depth of brahmin IQ and upper caste talent in India

In my high school, 50% brahmin, in a 3rd tier city in India, I stood in the first decile

The other 3-4 kids ahead of me at school stayed back in India


In my 2nd tier engineering college in India, I stood in the first quartile

The engineering class had 30% brahmins ( despite brutal affirmative action ), 30% Southern Merchant, 20% Southern Peasant and 20% Dalit
All the non-brahmin groups had affirmative action

At least 50% of the engineering
class scored more than 1250 on the verbal+math GRE ( 130 IQ )

Only 10% made it into the US
The other 40% stayed back in India

In this new generation, thanks to
Purchasing power parity,
and the growing economy, a larger fraction is staying back


rec1man said...

Lessons from the Mittani
The mittani kingdom is in north Syria

And yet it appears that a small hindu elite was able to foist themselves as the ruling class by 1400 BC

There certainly is no hindu invasion of Syria which is separated by Iran

A more plausible scenario is a small migrant group of hindu brahmins and merchants able with superior IQ and magic / offers of iron weapons?? to persuade/ over-awe the local king to hinduise his rule
and take up sanskrit language and culture

This is what happened all over south east asia

Anonymous said...


Another reason for a reduced average IQ in North India is because people migrated to the South in the face of losses to the Islamic invaders. The history of my community contains several migrations from the North down to the South as a result of the fall of kingdoms.

Posting the link here as you may be able to use some references in your research.

rec1man said...

anonymous wrote


Another reason for a reduced average IQ in North India is because people migrated to the South in the face of losses to the Islamic invaders. The history of my community contains several migrations from the North down to the South as a result of the fall of kingdoms.

You are absolutely correct
This is indeed a major secondary factor

In my private emails with Steve Sailer I had also raised this point of migrations away from islamic terror in north India

The IQ -caste issue is extremely complex and for the sake of simplicity I did not post it on this blog

rec1man said...

The sustained permanence of the caste system

There are numerous loop holes
and flexibilities and stress reliefs

The dalits dont oppose the caste system, they just want to upgrade the rank of their caste and often call themselves by a caste name that reflects a high caste origin

Peasant castes will lynch brahmins who dare to mess with their women

There is no slavery

The caste system is not strictly aligned on skin color
The jet black Chettiar merchants of tamil nadu are ranked next to brahmins

The caste system is not strictly aligned on wealth
Most brahmins are just middle class
Some Dalits were very wealthy, those who worked as Leather merchants, funeral home operators and judges who pass death sentence and execute violent criminals

The peasant caste had an organic relationship with the royalty caste
through the system of hypergamic

In the armies, the officers were the royalty caste and the foot soldiers were peasants

In the chaos of war, some peasants rise in the ranks and their sub-castes are with the help of brahmins accorded a royal lineage

By 1800, 70% of the maharajas in India were of recent peasant caste Origin.

Rajput ( Royalty ) caste status was also often accorded to anyone willing and able to fight the muslims

These include the gorkhas( 900AD ) and many of the central asian huns were admitted as rajputs ( 750AD )on being recruited to fight the muslims

Social engineering
In Uttar Pradesh in north India
The dalit leader mayawati started off by abusing brahmins
In that state, Dalits are 20% and brahmins are 10%. The brahmins offered to support her electorally and her advisors are now 80% brahmin
She has now won that state by getting brahmin votes and has shut off her anti-brahmin abuse

She realised that 20% dalit + 10 % brahmin = victory,
in a fragmented electorate with first past the post system
Her election posters and slogans now invoke hindu gods

Another example is Narendra Modi
of Gujurat
He is personally from a backward caste but probably 2-3 SD above the norm.
He was groomed by the BJP, ( heavily upper caste in its leadership ) and now Modi and his sub-caste is accepted as a de-facto upper caste and has won several elections on the strength of upper caste votes

In short, anyone who was legitimised by the brahmins could make their sub-castes as upper caste. So in the long run, the super-talented subcastes of the backward castes have bubbled up with the help of brahmins

rec1man said...

Legal work now outsourced to India

Are your lawyers in New York or New Delhi?

By Daniel Brook

ON EACH OF HIS FREQUENT TRIPS TO INDIA, American entrepreneur Leon Steinberg sets aside time to have a pair of shoes made. He insists the workmanship can't be matched in the United States, nor can the price. "These are the most comfortable shoes I've ever worn," he said of a pair of leather loafers he had on recently. Steinberg, who was standing in his office in Noida, a high-tech suburb of New Delhi, is not in the shoe business. He believes he's found another product that can be made in India at high quality and low cost: legal services. His 1 1/2-year-old company, Intellevate, specializes in intellectual property work. Its staff, about one-fifth of them lawyers, prepares patent applications and conducts technical research on intellectual property questions. Among its clients are the legal departments of Fortune 500 companies.

The market for outsourced legal work is expected to reach $163 billion by next year, and India is positioned to seize the largest share. The time difference between India and the United States allows for work to be done overnight, and many people in India's enormous workforce are college-educated and English-speaking. Intellevate recently placed a want ad for a patent researcher in the Times of India, the leading English-language daily. The company received 1,700 résumés. "There are 200 million English-speaking, college-educated Indians and there are not 200 million jobs," Steinberg said. Such a disparity in supply and demand allows his company to hire credentialed, capable labor, cheaply. "We're not selling shoes," Steinberg likes to say. "We're selling cobblers."

Puneet Mohey, president of a legal outsourcing company called Lexadigm on the other side of town, has a more straightforward pitch: "We provide large-law-firm-quality work at literally one-third the price." Lexadigm's rates range from $65 to $95 an hour for work that large U.S. firms might bill at $250 an hour or more. Nearly all the employees at Mohey's company are lawyers.

With outsourcing, those who are not members of an American bar are supervised, and their work vouched for, by someone who is. "To the extent that what you have them do is legal research for U.S. firms, it's not much different than having law students do it," said George Washington University Law School professor Thomas Morgan, a scholar of professional responsibility.

Sriram said...


Add Subir Sachdev to your list of Khatris (physics prof at harvard). He was a second ranker in the IIT entrance exam, moved to MIT, and is a leading figure in his area. Interestingly the first ranker in the same year Aneesh Manohar is also a physics prof in CA (maharashtrian brahmin, i am guessing).

you should also consider non-linear effects via the smart fraction theory of La Griffe Du Lion and also finds mention in this article (namely, linear combination of IQs wont be the best predictor of outcomes)by an IIT top ranker.

The antibrahmin AA in tamil nadu had 2 effects.. out-migration to other provinces and countries and switching to entrepreneur roles that dont depend on academic certification (very far removed from priestly chanting of mantras)this has some effect on why tamil nadu is relatively advanced industrially (and is catching up with Bangalore in software as well)

Indian Science (as opposed to technology) is in very bad shape and has actually declined over the last few decades (the most telling effect of brain drain)because very few smart people do PhDs and get into research etc. AA is a major factor (hiring of faculty as well selection of students)

rec1man said...

Indian science Nobels

South Indian brahmin
Chandrasekhara Venkata Raman was born on November 7, 1888 in an Iyer family in Tiruchirapalli, Tamil Nadu.His father was a lecturer in mathematics and physics, so he had an academic atmosphere at home. His nephew Subramanyan Chandrasekhar, also won a Nobel prize in physics in 1983.
In 1917, Raman resigned from his government service and took up the newly created Palit Professorship in Physics at the University of Calcutta. Simultaneously, he continued doing research at the IACS, where he became the Honorary Secretary. Raman used to refer to this period as the golden era of his career. Many talented students gathered around him at the IACS and the University of Calcutta. He was president of the 16th session of the Indian Science Congress in 1929.

Raman won the 1930 Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on the scattering of light and for the discovery of the Raman effect. Raman spectroscopy is based on this phenomenon.
( this nobel was done in Calcutta Univ )

South Indian Brahmin

Chandrasekhar was born in Punjab Lahore, British India, into an Iyer family

The following year in January 1937, Chandrasekhar was recruited to the University of Chicago faculty as Assistant Professor by Dr. Otto Struve and President Robert Maynard Hutchins. He was to remain at the university for his entire career, becoming Morton D. Hull Distinguished Service Professor of Theoretical Astrophysics in 1952 and attaining emeritus status in 1985.

During World War II, Chandrasekhar worked at the Ballistic Research Laboratories at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland

Nobel prize

He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1983 for his studies on the physical processes important to the structure and evolution of stars. Chandrasekhar accepted this honor, but was upset that the citation mentioned only his earliest work, seeing it as a denigration of a lifetime's achievement.

[edit] Legacy

Chandrasekhar's most famous success was the astrophysical Chandrasekhar limit.

The limit was first calculated by Chandrasekhar in 1930 during his maiden voyage from India to Cambridge, England for his graduate studies.

When Chandra first proposed this limit during his fellowship at Trinity college in the 1930's, it was obstinately opposed by Arthur Eddington and much to Chandra's frustration none of the established physicists in Europe came to his rescue. This episode had a bitter impact on Chandra resulting in his move to the University of Chicago in the United States and in his choice of moving to another research topic

In 1999, NASA named the third of its four "Great Observatories'" after Chandrasekhar. This followed a naming contest which attracted 6,000 entries from fifty states and sixty-one countries. The Chandra X-ray Observatory was launched and deployed by Space Shuttle Columbia on July 23, 1999. The name Chandrasekhar is one of the appellations of Shiva meaning "holder of the moon" in Sanskrit and is a common Tamil name.

The Chandrasekhar number, an important dimensionless number of magnetohydrodynamics, is named after him.

The asteroid 1958 Chandra is also named after Chandrasekhar.


Northern Merchant
Khatri caste - same as Vinod Khosla, Bobby Jindal, Sabeer Bhatia

Har Gobind Khorana, or Hargobind Khorana (born January 9, 1922) is an Indian-American molecular biologist. He was awarded the Nobel prize (shared with Robert W. Holley and Marshall Warren Nirenberg) in 1968 for his work on the interpretation of the genetic code and its function in protein synthesis. Khorana and Nirenberg were also awarded the Louisa Gross Horwitz Prize from Columbia University in the same year. He became a naturalized citizen of the United States in 1966. He currently lives in Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States serving as MIT's Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Biology and Chemistry, Emeritus.

rec1man said...

nsam wrote
you should also consider non-linear effects via the smart fraction theory of La Griffe Du Lion and also finds mention in this article (namely, linear combination of IQs wont be the best predictor of outcomes)by an IIT top ranker.

I fully agree, Over-representation in IIT is not mark of Average IQ but rather the 'Fat Tail' at the high end IQ

The 'Fat Tail' for south indian brahmins extends well into the 150-160 region

rec1man said...

List of south Indian brahmins who are fortune 500 CEO

1. Vikram Pandit - citibank
2. Indira Nooyi - pepsico
3. Ramani Ayer - Hartford financial
4. Abhijit Talwalker - LSI

rec1man said...

A possible explanation for the fat tail in right hand side of IQ bell curve for white people

1. As I explained earlier, the iranians had a set of magician brahmins called Atharvans

2. Since these castes in India have estimated IQ of 125, the same darwinian pressures would indicate that the Iranian Atharvans were also of 125 iQ, and those beyond 1 SD would be at 140+ and beyond 2 SD would be 155+

3. Somewhere between 1500BC to 900BC, Zoraster started monotheism with Ahura Mazda as the only god
He called the hindu gods, devas, as demons and the old religion was suppressed like Theodosius suppressed paganism in 400 AD

4. The main linguistic division between old sanskrit and old iranian avestan is that 'S' in sanskrit translates to 'H' in Avestan. Sindhu in sanskrit ( river Indus ), transforms to Hindu in Avestan. Hindu originally meant those who live by the river Indus

5. Around 1500BC - 900BC, in sanskrit texts, a new demon appears,
Asura, from the Ahura Mazda god of Iran

6. Zoraster allowed the Hotris
the Iranian fire priests to remain provided that if instead of invoking the hindu gods the devas, they would instead invoke Ahura Mazda

7. Zoraster deemed the Atharvans as sorcerors and tried to exterminate them

8. It is certain that those Atharvans who knew what was happening, 1-2 SD above the norm, fled to safety in all directions
The rest stayed back and got massacred

9. I hypothesise, A significant number would have fled to the lands of the celts ( in southern russia ) who were on the northern borders of the iranians

10. I also hypothesise, that the celtic nobles would have allowed the Atharvans to settle
for their iron weapons,
( This was the bronze age, and iron weapons were valuable technology )
their magical powers and the fact that their religion forbade them to be kings and were hence no direct threat to the celtic nobles

11. I hypothesise, that the 150 IQ Atharvans soon realised that the celtic nobles who probably resembled Conan the Barbarian, could be easily manipulated and they soon set themselves up as Royal advisors,
and king makers or lets say Druids

12. I also hypothesise, that using Atharvan brains and Celtic brawn, the celts got an edge and were able to diplomatically, politically and militarily out maneouvre their Indo-European neighbors and expand all the way from south russia to ireland, north of the alps. The atharvan druids, may have been able to win victories even before war by using magic to over-awe the non-celts, spread dissension among the non-celts and exploit any fault lines among the non-celts

13. Genghis Khan has left behind millions of descendants, which proves that a high status individual would have access to plenty of women

14. The 150 IQ Atharvan druids ,probably in a similar manner, left behind a fair number of high IQ descendants, which may explain the fat right hand high IQ tail
among white europeans

rec1man said...

Another Danu Article

Danu: Goddess of Primordial Waters
“The idea of a sacred river… the waters that pour from Heaven, becomes translated into the idea of the grace of the divine, flowing inexhaustibly out of some source” [Campbell]

Ancient Irish bards, like the Hindu Brahmins, deem that the river’s edge, the brink of the water, was always that place where ้icse, wisdom, spiritual enlightenment knowledge, and illumination was revealed.

Danu is associated in the Rg-veda, the oldest and most important Vedic text, with the formless, primordial waters that existed prior to creation.

In Bali Pura Ulun Danu Bratan, a Hindu/Buddhist temple was founded in the 17th century, and is dedicated to Devi (“Goddess”) Danu - the goddess of the waters. Located looking over the sacred Lake Bratan in north Bali, the temple is the focus of ceremonies and pilgrimages to ensure the supply of water. (

Sriram said...


An estimate of tribal IQ could be got by determining the success (or lack thereof) of tribals in Bihar/Bengal in working in skilled (as opposed to unskilled) occupations in factories (in the big railway factory in chittaranjan for example, lots of tribals are employed but its not clear if they succeed in gaining skills).. same in places like jamshedpur. the indian public sector, reviled as it may be as a reminder of failed socialism ran with some degree of success thanks to the upper caste engineers and managers from all over india (including an over-representation from the usual groups). It seems that the lower bound of 80 that you place on dalit and tribal IQs is a bit of a guess. Whats to say that its not closer to 75? On the other hand we do have a new province (Chattisgarh) thats run by majority tribal leaders. These tend to be the targets of xtian missionaries and usually have a decent education.

In all of this its clear theres another important dimension other than IQ that interacts with it.. this is the "temperament" factor which is related to things like being able to suppress aggressive actions and foregoing near term gain for future rewards. The mixture of low mean IQ and high aggression (as indicated by testosterone levels) is pretty lethal as the prisons in america indicate. Low mean IQ (80) isnt necessarily a bad thing provided the temperament factor isnt quite as loaded. For this reason, I think African Americans who have significant east-asian admixture should flourish (a bump in IQ as well a toning down on the aggression)and be vastly overrepresented in places like university campuses (I seem to notice a lot of black kids on campus with clearly east asian features).. Steve has pointed out the unique temperament of the mexican mestizo group.. wonder how that differs from the east asian type.

rec1man said...

nsam wrote
It seems that the lower bound of 80 that you place on dalit and tribal IQs is a bit of a guess. Whats to say that its not closer to 75?

It is quite likely that in the current indian environment, the IQ of dalits and tribals is closer to 75 than 80, may be as low as 70IQ

My 80 IQ estimate is based on these dalit and tribal populations being relocated to the west, or in india after 3 generarations when the economy and literacy and nutrition improves

African blacks are 70IQ in africa, but 80IQ in the west,
It is called the flynn effect

rec1man said...

Inter-caste violence among xtians at Eraiyur

These xtians have been catholics for 300 years and still are as casteist as any hindu

The immediate provocation for the protest was violence against Dalits by “upper caste” (Vanniar)

( Actually Vanniars are a backward peasant caste )

Christians at Eraiyur in Villupuram district on March 9. In the police firing that followed, two Vanniar Christians were killed.

Dalit Christians of the village have been on a fast since March 7 demanding that the Archbishop recognise the Sagaya Matha Chapel they had built for a new Dalit parish in the village. Their complaint was that they were not treated as equals by the Vanniar Christians within the Church of Our Lady of Rosary, the present Eraiyur parish church, located in the centre of Eraiyur. Archbishop Anthony Aanandarayar was firm that there could not be two churches for the same order in one village.

On the third day of the fast, on March 9, angry Vanniar Christians carrying sticks, poles, iron rods, stones and other weapons stormed the Dalit colony in the village. Over 30 Dalits were injured and about 80 of their houses were damaged.

The two Vanniar Christians killed in police firing were innocent onlookers, it is said. In the mob retaliation, seven police personnel, including the Superintendent of Police, A. Amal Raj, were injured. The State government has ordered payment of compensation to the families of the firing victims, although the Dalits, who were injured and lost property, are yet to receive any assistance from the government. Worse, they complained, the Vanniar Christians had subsequently imposed a social and economic boycott of the Dalits. Most of the Dalits in the village are agricultural workers who depend on the land-owning majority community (Vanniars) for their livelihood, and they are now jobless.

Vanniar Christians, who are angry about the police firing, accused the clergy of standing in the way of “maintaining certain traditional practices” and threatened to convert to Hinduism. The Archdiocese has initiated a dialogue with Vanniar Christians and Dalit Christians. Meanwhile, the parish church administration has ordered the closure of the church until the return of peace. The Eraiyur parish has a 300-year-old history behind it. Eraiyur is one of the earliest Tamil Nadu villages in which Christianity took root in the second half of the 17th century. A note on the parish, published on the website of the Archdiocese of Pondicherry and Cuddalore states: “The first Catholic community was established in the 17th century when Christianity began to grow around 1660. Eraiyur began to grow in Catholic faith.”

rec1man said...

Estimated IQ for various states in India

Brahmins, 5% @ 120IQ
Upper Castes, 40% @ 110 IQ
Backward Castes, 20% @ 95 IQ
Muslims, 10% @ 85 iQ
Dalits, Tribals, 25% @ 80iQ
Avg = 97.5IQ

Tamil Nadu
Brahmins, 1% @ 125IQ
Upper castes = 25% @ 115 IQ
Backward Castes = 50% @ 100 IQ
Muslims, 6% @ 90 IQ
Dalits, 18% @ 85 IQ
Avg = 102.5IQ

Uttar Pradesh
Brahmins = 10% @ 120 IQ
Upper Castes = 20% @ 110 IQ
Backward Castes = 30% @ 95 IQ
Muslims = 20% @ 85 IQ
Dalits = 20% @ 80 IQ
Avg = 95.5IQ

Brahmins = 5% @ 120 IQ
Upper Castes = 20% @ 110 IQ
Backward Castes = 40% @ 95 IQ
Muslims = 15% @ 85 IQ
Dalits = 20% @ 80IQ
Avg = 94.75IQ

Brahmins = 5% @ 120IQ
Upper Castes = 25% @ 110IQ
Backward Castes = 50% @ 95IQ
Muslims = 0% ( ethnic cleansed 1947)
Dalits = 20% @ 80IQ
Avg = 97IQ

Brahmins = 5% @ 125IQ
Upper Castes = 15% @ 115 IQ
Backward Castes = 25% @ 100 IQ
Muslims = 5% @ 85 IQ
Dalits, Tribals = 50% @ 85IQ
Avg = 95IQ

West Bengal
Brahmins = 5% @ 120 IQ
Upper Castes = 15% @ 110IQ
Backward Castes = 30% @ 95 IQ
Muslim = 25% @ 75 IQ
( these muslims are dalit Namasudra converts , 85-10 = 75 )
Dalits = 25% @ 80 IQ
Avg = 89.75IQ

rec1man said...

South Indian brahmin is oil price guru

Mystery Indian analyst at Goldman spooks world economy
10 May 2008, 0104 hrs IST,Chidanand Rajghatta,TNN

WASHINGTON: They are calling him Arjun ''Spike'' Murti, but his real middle name is Narayana, the supreme manifestation of the Hindu god Vishnu. Supreme he is, in the oil world. The little known Indian analyst at Goldman Sachs has become a cause cilhbre — a doomsday prophet — for his forecasts about oil prices, based on what he calls the ''super-spike'' theory, predicated on rising demand for crude and limitations in refining capacity.

Murti, 38, now a managing director at Goldman Sachs, first came to the fore as far back as 2003-2004 when he predicted that oil prices would breach $80 a barrel when it was still in the 30s. He was sneered at. He was mocked again when he predicted in 2005 that it would double from $50 to $100 before the end of the decade. Last month, when he forecast that a barrel of oil could even touch $200, no one was laughing as it surged to $125 on Friday.

( Brahmins like to work in the background and are publicity shy
Remember, Royal advisor, never king )

So little is known about Murti that it is driving the info-hungry media batty. Unlike many analysts, he does not appear on business television; he does not give interviews (he did not respond to emails for this story), and there are no pictures of him in the public domain.

He's the phantom analyst who's got the world market spooked. Some of what he is — a blunt-speaking, candid analyst — can be gleaned from his one appearance before the US House Committee on Energy and Commerce in July 2004, where he is introduced as a ''managing director and senior equity investment analyst'' covering the oil sector at Goldman Sachs, his lair for nearly a decade.


But many in financial media backed him. ''Murti's report is a 30-page piece of logical analysis that was oversimplified,'' noted Fortune, dismissing the notion of insider trading as ''idiotic.'' Newsweek 's Fareed Zakaria noted as far back as 2006 that given the consumption patterns in US, which he called "gorilla of globas gas,'' Murti's forecast did not look bubbly anymore. Murti himself never once attributed the demand from India, which consumes 2.5 million barrels of oil a day (one third of China and one eighth of US) for the spike.

rec1man said...

Indian merchant caste vs chinese merchant class

While the Indian govt is screwed up, compared to the much more efficient chinese govt,

The Indian merchant private sector is trumping the chinese economy
in many sectors and Indian merchants do very well in hong kong
Again points to well over 110 IQ
for Indian merchants


But that’s just the beginning... Although you won’t hear this in the mainstream media, smart investors know that Indian companies’ return on equity is 21% compared with 10% for China.

The average Indian investment makes double that of the average Chinese investment.


Comparing return on equity (ROE) and return on investment (ROD data for various industries in China and India provides some evidence that in India, entrepreneurship and inspiration may circumvent some barriers posed by lack of capital. Figure 7 indicates that Indian companies' ROEs and ROIs clearly trump those of Chinese companies in several industries.

A BusinessWeek analysis of financial data from Standard & Poor's Compustat shows Indian corporations are getting more bang for their rupee. A look at over 340 publicly listed companies from 1999 through 2003 (many Indian companies have yet to release their complete 2004 reports) reveals that Indian businesses have, with a few exceptions, outperformed their Chinese counterparts on return on equity (ROE) and return on invested capital (ROIC).

rec1man said...

Famines in India, before and after the british

As the historian Mike Davis notes, before the British arrived in India, there was a famine once every 120 years -- after the British arrived, the figure was once every four years. The reason? The British imposed 'free markets' in food, which meant that they were able to pay more for Indian grain, and thus causing grain to be exported to Britain while, at the very same time and as a consequence of the very same policies, Indians starved.

rec1man said...

How the Reddys of Andhra Pradesh in South india, moved from backward peasant caste to Royalty

( Fight the muslims successfully )

Jeeri Prolaya Vema Reddy, the first king of the Reddy dynasty, described himself as one of the four varnas that emerged from the feet of MahaVishnu ( The Shudra peasant caste is said to emerge from the feet of the god , the brahman from the head of the god )

. Vema assembled a large army of peasants and herdsmen, and adopted guerrilla warfare. It is said that when he attacked Muslims, Vema Reddy had their water supply lines contaminated with sewage leading to dysentery in their ranks. Vema chased the general of the Tughlaq army, Makkqbool Iqbal to the Warangal fort and Kapaya Nayaka then stormed it and took control. Vema then led a blitzkrieg on the Kondavidu fort and hacked off the head of Maliq Gurjar, the Muslim commander there and liberated Nidudavolu, Vundi, and Pithapuram after pitched battles. Vema then defeated an army of Jalaluddin Shah in a raid on Tondaimandalam,

Vema continued his lightning raids on the Muslim-occupied forts of Bellamkonda, Vinukonda and Nagarjunakonda and captured them all. He then declared himself a raja (king) with Kondavidu as his capital.

His famous inscriptions from this period state: "I restored all the agraharas ( tax free villages )of Brahmins, which had been taken away by the evil Muslim kings. I am indeed an Agastya to the ocean which was made of the Muslim".

( per the myth, Agastya drinks up the ocean in which demons were hiding )

Sriram said...


You need to have 2 columns per state. One is your estimate for present IQ )IQp and the other is the estimate for asymptotic IQa in 3 generations. I'd imagine that states that have high literacy and other developmental indices dont have much room to increase via better nutrition and the flynn effect.

If we go by your numbers then the range of mean IQp could range from as low as 75 to 120.. 3 standard deviations.

If your numbers are correct then there shouldnt be a serious talent crunch in India presently.. But what we hear is that the vast majority of so-called college graduates are unemployable. Its of course tempting to point the finger at the vast majority of degree mills (and this critique would be valid).. the govt hasnt opened up the edu sector in a convincing way for private investment.. once these barriers are eventually removed, we'll get a more realistic idea of the potential.

Steve's basic idea is that China has a mean IQ advantage over India.. And the Chinese are doing a far better job of developing their human resources as they can take ad-hoc decisions without needing to pander to various voting groups (funding universities and attracting faculty). So its logical to expect more sustainable development in the case of China at least over the next few decades.

A cousin of mine who was a citi vp mentioned the difference between indian and chinese workers.. The chinese are excellent at following orders and executing but fall short on the creative front.. its exactly the opposite with indians.. good in conceptualizing and creativity but lacking in implementation.. this is admittedly a stereotype but one wonders if there is a germ of truth in this.

Anonymous said...

there shouldnt be a serious talent crunch in India presently.. But what we hear is that the vast majority of so-called college graduates are unemployable.

Here's an informative graphic to put this in perspective. Key points to note here are (1) 25% of all engineers with the right degree in India are deemed employable as compared to 10% for China and Russia and (2) the reference to the highly inefficient resource utilization by the IT services industry and (3) the uneven quality of India's education system

Thus, unemployability is relative and compared to China and Russia, India is doing quite well training its people even with an antiquated education system.

The second point makes me think that the talent shortage may have more to do with how companies are using the people they hire than any real talent crunch.

Anonymous said...

exactly the opposite with indians.. good in conceptualizing and creativity but lacking in implementation.. this is admittedly a stereotype but one wonders if there is a germ of truth in this.

Is this a recent observation?

I am Indian myself, and what I have observed is that too many recent entrants to the workforce from India are choosing their fields based on the financial rewards and not because they are passionate about the field and want to make a difference. When someone gets into a field because it's seen as a get-rich-quick scheme, he/she usually has trouble staying the course through implementation.

rec1man said...

Estimated IQ for Maharashtra
( Mumbai )

Brahmin, 5% @ 125 IQ
Upper Caste 30% @ 115 IQ
Backward Caste 40% @100IQ
Muslim, 10% @ 85 IQ
Dalit, 15% @ 85 IQ
Avg = 102

rec1man said...

US tax preparation moving to India

As many as 360,000 US tax returns were prepared in India in 2006, according to a report prepared by Pune-based ValueNotes, a leading provider of business intelligence and research.

The report says that at least 1.6 million returns will be prepared in India by 2011, but adds that this estimate is quite conservative and the potential is much larger at 22 million returns per year by 2011.

Actual offshoring could be limited by CPA firms' (US's Certified Public Accountant) inhibitions about outsourcing the work to India, but competitive pressures could force many more firms to offshore, the report says.

Glen Keenan, president of Xpitax, a facilitating outfit, says: "The whole outsourcing business requires a shift in thinking for the CPA firms, so comfort factor has to be really high in order to do that."

The accounting and audit services are relatively new in offshoring and are gradually gaining maturity with each passing tax season. Unlike other services, which are traditionally outsourced due to cost pressures, the demand for tax returns offshoring stems from the lack of accountants and excessive workload during the 'tax season.'

The number of CPAs and other qualified accountants in the US are just not enough to meet the increasing demand from increasing tax compliance, Sarbanes--Oxley related work, estate planning, advisories, et cetera. The demand-supply mismatch has led to severe competition for experienced accountants and salaries are skyrocketting, even at starting levels.

CPA firms are discovering that offshored tax returns are not only turned around faster, but are also 40% to 60% cheaper. CPA firms after initial success with tax returns preparation is slowly sending more work offshore: bookkeeping, financial statements analysis, etc.

ValueNotes CEO Arun Jethmalani says: "The industry will quickly move beyond 1040s. Both the vendors and buyers are at an inflection point on the maturity graph, and we expect tax returns preparation will drive penetration into a wider range of offshored professional accounting services."

The Indian offshore services provider landscape consists of captives of the Big Four audit firms (KPMG, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Deloitte and Touch�, and Ernst & Young), American facilitating firms / agencies (Xpitax, SurePrep, CCH, IFR), Tier-1 multi-service BPOs (MphasiS, Datamatics, OPI), Tier-2 BPOs (PB Tech Impact Solutions, Cosmic Internet Technologies) and F&A BPOs owned/ controlled by Indian chartered accountants (GKM Management Services, Business Accounting Services, Accountant Anywhere, Enablizer).

Pratibha K, analyst at ValueNotes, feels that "facilitators like Xpitax and SurePrep are best positioned to service CPA firms, while Indian CA BPOs are well placed to operate as complete back-offices for accounting firms."

Based on the analysis that included extensive primary research, ValueNotes picked three winners from the current crop of vendors: Xpitax, GKM Management Services and Business Accounting Services.

Karthikeyan, managing director, GKM Management Services, says, "As chartered accountants, we feel our biggest advantage is that we can speak the global language of accounting with the CPAs. We feel this is a good differentiating factor for us compared to the large corporate vendors. CPAs are bound to trust us more than the tech companies because of our common accounting background."

The ValueNotes report � 'Offshoring Tax Return Preparation to India' -- said that tax return preparation will also set the stage for other accounting services to be sent to India.

Anonymous said...

Another compounding factor for the unemployability of Indian college graduates is the affirmative action program. The affirmative action program has historically reserved 22.5% of college seats for dalits and tribals. Assuming the IQ numbers are right, the affirmative action program results in colleges graduating a chunk of low IQ but degreed students every year.

Unfortunately for the AA program, employers hire based on the results of their own version of an IQ test. This means that the low IQ population that makes its way through college by virtue of AA eventually trips up when it comes time to enter the workforce.

Sriram said...


Is this a recent observation?

no, one thats over 10 years old.. and it was not related to the short term attitude that you mention


thanks for the link to that post and the graph.. It is shocking that only 20 to 25% of engg and finance grads are employable.. but even more shocking that the numbers are less for China (and Brazil is less than India).. the numbers for Mexico are pretty good though..European countries such as the czech republic fare better at 50%... this could take a couple of decades to achieve.

most big IT majors (infosys, tcs) have taken it upon themselves to do the education part in a huge way.. as a lot of the education racket is a get-rich-quick scheme run by low IQ Indian politicians (who are reluctant to let go and open up the sector to private investment)

Here is such a program:

"Chennai, Aug. 22 Tata Consultancy Services will hire 2,000 science graduates, mostly from Tier III cities and rural areas, and turn them into software professionals in the current fiscal.

These graduates, who must agree to stay on with the company for two years (like any other recruits), will be treated as TCS employees from the Day One, but will get 30 per cent lesser salary than engineering graduates, Mr S. Ramadorai, CEO and Managing Director, TCS, told presspersons here today.

The number of recruits will be ramped up to 5,000 in two years under the science-to-software learning and development programme, called TCS Ignite, Mr Ramadorai said.

Designed as an intensive seven-month programme with live project experience, TCS Ignite equips mathematics and science graduates with the skills necessary to pursue a career in the IT industry.

It builds a foundation in software through a customised curriculum. It begins with the logic and problem solving methods and moves to their application in real world, says a company press release.

In a TCS Ignite pilot programme, 500 trainees were inducted into the company.

The batch consisted of science graduates from over 200 colleges in nine states. Over 60 per cent of them were women belonging to various states, including North East (my note: greater mongoloid admixture), which has not been traditional talent sourcing destination for IT companies."

even smaller IT companies have had success in hiring high schoolers and training them on a stipend before putting them on projects

a quote from this entry

"Over time, I have come to the conclusion that for the vast majority of people, college is actually an expensive (in more ways than one) waste of time. It is not because classes are not taught well - even granting the best teachers with the best of intentions, the whole structure of higher education is ill-suited to the majority of students. The main reason is that most students cannot possibly know why, say, Quantum Physics or Theory of Algorithms is relevant to anything they will face in the real world. That kind of knowledge is very contextual - you better understand Quantum Physics well if you work in semiconductor fabrication, for example, but frankly, only very few of us will ever learn it well just for the sheer intellectual challenge of it.

Not having that kind of meta-knowledge (knowing why something is important), students have to go on faith that what is being taught is important, or the all-too-common practical alternative, fake that faith. We live in a time where asking for such faith from young adults is asking too much.

That is true even in an ideal world where every professor knows his or her stuff, and can teach it well. In the real world, particularly in major brand-name universities, many professors consider teaching to be a price they pay for the privilege of conducting research. Then there are colleges, particularly in a country like India, where teaching is simply no good at all. Pathetic waste of time would be a polite understatement for what passes for education in most colleges in India.

For some years now, we haven’t required college credentials for employment. We disregard grades. In the past 2 years, we have started a program in our Chennai center, where we enroll students after high school in our own internal “University” which combines work and education. I am very happy to report that results have been outstanding."

Interestingly both these examples are from the city of chennai (south india)

Sriram said...


if the school leaving cohort (17 to 18 years age) is considered, it appears there may be about 1 million brahmins and 5 million upper caste in each cohort (averaging 5% and 25% of the population).

A mean of 120 + 2 sd for brahmins is necessary for top flight schools and a mean of 110 + 2.67 sd is necessary for upper castes. This converts to about a max potential of 22000 brahmins and 19000 upper castes, per year. For the lower and other castes (70%) of the population, the same threshold is 90 + 4 SD which results in less than 500 per year. No wonder the number of people in the tails are so unevenly distributed. Add in social factors (gender) and circumstances, these numbers are probably reduced by some factor (low fertility would probably make a bigger dent on the brahmin numbers perhaps) so that the effective numbers are 50% or 33% of the max potential.

Almost all (90%) students who make it without AA belong to these 2 categories (where upper caste is based on your literate history definition)

These numbers strongly imply that it makes sense to target impoverished brahmins (primarily) and upper castes (secondarily) for increases in the effective numbers in the tails. Exactly the opposite of the affirmative action that is practiced via the logic of electoral calculations.

rec1man said...

Some corrections/ clarifications

My estimate of floor IQ to get into IIT and top medical colleges = 150IQ

IQa ( in 3 generations )
Southern brahmin, 1% = 125
Northern brahmin, 4% = 120
Southern Merchant, 3% = 115
Northern Merchant, 12% = 110
Southern Peasant, 8% = 100
Northern Peasant, 32% = 95
Muslim , 15% = 85
Southern Dalit, 5% = 85
Northern Dalit, 20% = 80
Average = 94.10

For flynn effect, For present IQ,
IQp, I am reducing brahmin and merchant scores by 5, peasant scores by 7, Dalit and Muslim scores by 10
Note, in Africa, the Flynn reduction is 10

IQp ( at present )
Southern brahmin, 1% = 125-5=120
Northern brahmin, 4% = 120-5=115
Southern Merchant, 3% = 115-5=110
Northern Merchant, 12% = 110-5=105
Southern Peasant, 8% = 100-7=93
Northern Peasant, 32% = 95-7=88
Muslim , 15% = 85-10=75
Southern Dalit, 5% = 85-10=75
Northern Dalit, 20% = 80-10-70
( Northern Dalit = African = 70 in native country )
Average at Present in India = 86.3IQ
Flynn delta = 7.8IQ
This sort of makes sense, that the Flynn effect in India, 7.8 is somewhat less than than the Flynn effect for Africa = 10


Regarding Eugenics, it makes sense
for AA to be targeted at poor brahmins and poor upper castes

However, AA is a political program
It started off as for Dalits and Tribals only, 22.5%

The middle ranking peasant castes using their vote strength voted themselves into AA undeservedly, 27%

Regarding AA, the way the constitution is written, for a Dalit caste, ( This could not be done for the tribes since nagaland already went 90% xtian by 1940 )

Religious practise of Untouchability was the criterion
for getting AA

To those dalits wishing to let off steam by converting out of hinduism they were allowed to keep AA and convert to buddhism and sikhism ( safety valve )
On the grounds that hindus sikhs and buddhists form a common inter-marrying pool

The xtian missionaries and mullahs could not admit to pracitising untouchability on their dalits
while simulaneously trying to convert hindu dalits by offering equality

In short, AA is a carrot to the dalit

He can switch to buddhism or sikhism and retain AA
The moment he takes a bribe from a xtian missionary to convert to xtianity, he loses AA

The net result is that the natural conversion flow of Dalits is to buddhism
and this has been welcomed by the upper castes, with relief
(The buddha is one of the hindu avatars)

AA to the dalits is a social contract to keep the peace

For all the decades when India was much poorer, ( not much longer ),
The very rich xtian missionaries have been thwarted by AA and are desperately trying to get dalit xtian converts added to AA.

Pre 1947, there was a trickle of dalits to islam. United bengal went muslim majority in 1881 only
Post 1947, due to AA, the conversion to islam has come to a full stop
AA also slowed the conversion of hindu dalits to xtianity to a trickle and now as the Indian economy improves, the xtian missionary can soon no longer do rice xtianity

The implications of conversion to islam or xtianity is secession movements as in Pakistan, Bangladesh ( 1947 ) and the ongoing 60 year xtian secession movements in Nagaland, Mizoram, etc

AA to Dalits is the price to pay to maintain the borders, by maintaining the demographic ratios

Sriram said...


I believe your current IQp, IQa chart sheds some light on Steve's original observations regarding india vs. china. China, as I understand it is mostly about one ethnic group (han chinese) and one can use the normal distribution to estimate the proportion of population in various ranges (e.g., the smart fraction) as an approximation. This approach wont work in India as the distribution is multi-modal. So one has to get the fractions for each group and combine them to get the overall percentages for various ranges.

I think this work can be put on a much firmer footing by using data from GovtOfIndia and various academic institutes. For example, it is downright silly and destructive to have the same percentage quota formulae across institutions that vary in selectivity. Even the GOI realizes this to some extent as a few orgs are outside AA (space research, nuclear). I think it is vitally important to get an accurate idea of the IQ distributions in various groups as a mechanism to inform policy making for the long haul.

I am Indian (as you are) and do unrelated work in the social/behavioral sciences. I'd like to take this e-mail as we seem to be the only ones discussing this here.

rec1man said...

South Indian brahmin
7 year old, 2nd grader, youngest spelling bee finalist

Campbell, N.Y. -

Seemingly impervious to the steadily growing pressure, 7-year-old whiz kid Sriram Hathwar didn’t take long to belt out his 26th and final word in Thursday evening’s regional spelling bee at Campbell-Savona Central School.

The word – excuse the pun – was “impervious.”

Hathwar knew immediately that he’d nailed the word. After the judges confirmed it, he strolled nonchalantly off the stage and was swept up in a bear hug by his mom, touching off a joyous family celebration in the aisles at the school’s Stephen B. Morley Auditorium.

With the victory, Hathwar – a second-grader at the Chemung Valley Montessori School in Big Flats – earned a spot in the 79th annual Scripps National Spelling Bee, to be held in late May in Washington, D.C.

But make no mistake. Hathwar’s win didn’t come easily.

Hathwar prevailed in a wildly entertaining 1-on-1 showdown with last year’s regional champion, Devin Li, a sixth-grader at Corning’s Alternative School for Math and Science.

rec1man said...

Proving the islam 10 deficit

1995 SAT scores
White Unitarian - 1073 ( using hindu texts since 1830 )

White Quaker - 1037
White Judaism - 1030
Asian Hindu - 1029
White Hindu - 1004
( must be neo-converts )

White Average - 934

And Dead Last in this list
Asian Islam - 923

There is a 107 SAT drop, about 7 IQ points between asian hindu and asian islam
Same race different religion

So even in the US, the mullah causes a 7 IQ drop
In south asia, the mullah is much stronger and easily causes a 10 IQ drop

rec1man said...

Indian nuclear missile program
running on brahmin IQ

With the same dimensions and the addition of a third stage powered by solid propellants, the missile can hit targets more than 5,000 km away.

The innovative modular structure of Agni-III lends itself to building missiles that have longer ranges and those that can carry multiple warheads. Besides, Agni-III can be wheeled both by rail and road. Hence, it can be launched from anywhere in India. It can be modified to be launched from other platforms as well. Its mobility and dispersal, therefore, makes it superior to missiles of a similar class. Agni-III has high survivability and agility of response, too.

Besides, it is a “fire and forget missile”. It has sophisticated software developed by DRDO engineers and all that has to be done is to feed the coordinates into the missile’s onboard computer. The missile will assess the performance of each and every subsystem during the flight, compute the best path it should take and reach within metres of the target. A separate software guides it to the target. The missile is immune to external interference after its lift-off.

According to informed sources, Agni-III can cover most parts of China while the soon-to-be-developed Agni-V will be able to cover all parts of China. Agni-I, with its range of 700 km, is apparently Pakistan-specific. India has no plans to build Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs) because it has no global ambitions,

( very deliberately the range has been kept at least 1000km or more below Moscow and Europe and USA
The foolish chinese have 20 missiles pointed at Russia and 20 at the USA, and in turn, have 1000 russian and 1000 US missiles pointed back at them )

the sources said. “If you see the landmass around India, there is no landmass other than the American continent which requires a range of more than 6,000 km. So there is no need for an ICBM. So why should you spend your resources on an ICBM unless you see a direct threat?” a source said. •

Anonymous said...

The model assumes that the South Indian brahmin has a +5 IQ advantage over the North Indian brahmin. But I doubt the evidence is conclusive.

The IQ for the South Indian brahmin is calibrated based on the performance of the Indian diaspora in the US. However, it is a well known fact that only people disadvantaged within their country immigrate to the US. And the brahmin migration to the US is mainly composed of the South Indian brahmin. Thus it may very well be that the North Indian brahmin is more capable (higher IQ?) and thus is able to be successful within India.

rec1man said...

anonymous wrote
The model assumes that the South Indian brahmin has a +5 IQ advantage over the North Indian brahmin. But I doubt the evidence is conclusive.

The IQ for the South Indian brahmin is calibrated based on the performance of the Indian diaspora in the US. However, it is a well known fact that only people disadvantaged within their country immigrate to the US. And the brahmin migration to the US is mainly composed of the South Indian brahmin. Thus it may very well be that the North Indian brahmin is more capable (higher IQ?) and thus is able to be successful within India.

My model assumes that all south Indian castes have an IQ 5 points over that of the equivalent north Indian castes
First based on algebra, I calculated the Northern Merchant IQ at 110
Next add 5 and we get the soutern merchant at 115IQ
Next, the anti-brahmin affirmative action in tamil nadu, was started by the southern merchant in 1920, so add 10 for southern brahmin for 125IQ and subtract 5 for northern brahmin at 120IQ
Next to enter the USA, there is filter, and only higher IQ people are let in
I am assuming the US filter at 5IQ
So southern brahmin in US = 125+5 = 130IQ
The fact that the brahmin diaspora in the US is disproportionately southern brahmin and very few northern brahmin confirms my hypothesis of a 5 point southern IQ advantage
The brahmin immigrant, who depends on scholarship gets in by scoring very high on GRE ( 140+ IQ )

rec1man said...

Out of 45 semifinalists in Spelling bee

Nawaz, Samia - Muslim Upper caste

Arunachalam, Easun - South Indian Upper caste / brahmin

Jauhari, Arushi - North Indian upper caste

Kangeyan, Shiva - South Indian upper caste / brahmin

Vavilala, Vaibhav - North Indian upper caste

Mishra, Sameer - North Indian brahmin

Shivashankar, Kavya - south Indian brahmin

Shekhar, Akshat - South Indian brahmin

Chand, Sidharth - North Indian upper caste

Iyer, Jahnavi - South Indian brahmin

rec1man said...

Indian high end IQ
Ballistic missile defense

The upgraded Prithvi ABM interceptor appears to rank with the U.S. Patriot PAC-3 system, Russia's S-300 and Israel's Arrow in its intended ability to intercept short- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles.

At the end of the day, when all the cautions, caveats and qualifiers have been made, a crucial underlying fact remains: India has now shown its capability to home produce an effective anti-ballistic missile prototype.

The strategic balance of the world therefore shifted on Monday. India took a very large step indeed and served notice that it has much to give, as well as to receive, in its strategic weapons and BMD cooperation with the United States.

rec1man said...

Another high end Indian IQ landmark

Sukhoi-30 MKI

The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI[1] (NATO reporting name Flanker-H) is a variant of the Sukhoi Su-30, jointly-developed by Russia's Sukhoi Corporation and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the Indian Air Force.

The Su-30MKI version is a development of the Su-27 series. Though a variant of Su-30, the Su-30 MKI is more advanced than the basic Su-30 or the Chinese Su-30 MKK aircraft. Its avionics, aerodynamic features and components are similar to the Su-35.[6] This variant has significant upgrades on it from the basic Su-30 MK version. The aircraft was jointly designed by Russia's Sukhoi and India's HAL.

India exercised its Su-30MKIs against the Royal Air Force's Tornado ADVs in October 2006.[7] This was the first large scale exercise with any foreign air force in which the IAF used its Su-30MKI's extensively. This exercise was also the first in 43 years with the RAF. In July 2007, the IAF'S Sukhoi-30MKI'S were pitted against RAF Eurofighter Typhoon's .[8]

Indian contribution

Su-30MKI is fitted with several Indian designed and manufactured avionic items. Several critical items were developed by DRDO under a project code named "Vetrivel" (Spear of Victory Vel in Tamil) in close collaboration with the PSUs and the IAF. These included the mission computer, display processor and radar computer. Other systems supplied by the DRDO and HAL include the INCOM frequency hopping, jam resistant radio set, radar altimeters, IFF units, as well as dial-pointer instrumentation for the cockpit, intended as a backup for the digital Liquid crystal displays.

Some of the components developed by Indian agencies were:

* Mission Computer Display Processor-MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment DARE): The 32-bit mission computer performs mission-oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration-cum-redundancy management and in-flight systems self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language was adopted for the mission computer's software.
* Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE)
* Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module
* IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe
* Integrated communication suite
* Radar altimeter

Other critical items from the Indian side, included test instrumentation and support equipment for the Sukhoi

Furthermore, Indian pilots and technical personnel played a vital role in optimizing the Sukhoi-30 MKI's ergonomics as well as information displays

Sriram said...


If during the period 1960-2000, an average of 5000 150+ IQ Indians emigrated per year.. this amounts to a huge transfer of resources (a total of 200000 individuals or 1% of the Indian Diaspora); perhaps close to half or a third of such folks because of the inability of India to make use of such resources. The situation I am told has changed since the last 5 years or so and we should see some effects of lowered out-migration of talent within a decade.

Many of the examples you provide (missiles etc) are actually associated mostly with folks who attended second tier institutions within India (all the more credit to them) unlike their comrades in the top tier institutes who tended to emigrate. Prior to the 70s out-migration was relatively low and that generation was associated with the moderate successes (or limited failures) of public sector enterprises in socialist India.

I am not sure what the spelling bee results tell us. The math competitions likewise are filled with east asian names. Does that mean on average Indian kids in the US are verbally gifted and the east asian kids mathematically gifted? One sees a lot of second and later generation indians in the media business (pretty far away from math). A typical case: father is a first generation scientist with a zillion patents.. son is a political science graduate working with some campaign.

Anonymous said...

The fact that the brahmin diaspora in the US is disproportionately southern brahmin and very few northern brahmin confirms my hypothesis of a 5 point southern IQ advantage
The brahmin immigrant, who depends on scholarship gets in by scoring very high on GRE ( 140+ IQ )

It does imply that the southern brahmin is smart, but this doesn't prove a +5 southern IQ advantage. To prove that you'd have to show that the northern brahmins tried to emigrate stateside but were unable to because they didn't get in to university programs.

Perhaps the reason you don't have many northern brahmins emigrating is because they just don't want to for environmental reasons. For example, the low caste Keralite prefers working unskilled jobs in the Gulf, but the low caste UPite works unskilled jobs within India.

rec1man said...

nsam earlier wrote
A mean of 120 + 2 sd for brahmins is necessary for top flight schools and a mean of 110 + 2.67 sd is necessary for upper castes. This converts to about a max potential of 22000 brahmins and 19000 upper castes, per year.


This works out to 40000 , 150IQ individuals


nsam later wrote 5000 each year emigrated

So only 12.5% emigrated and 87.5% remained


nsam also wrote
Indian missiles etc are predominantly work of 2nd tier Indians,
the top tier either emigrated or took on more lucrative jobs in the private sector
Indian govt pays very poor salaries to its scientists

And as the emigration slows, due to improving economy, more of the top tier will be at home


rec1man said...

North Indian brahmins are also desperately poor
Many operate the sulabh public latrine chain in north India

In general, southern states are better run than than UP, Bihar etc

In fact, BIMARU is a well known acronmy for the laggard states

Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh , all refer to backward illiterate northern states and to some extent this reflects on IQ

rec1man said...

anonymous wrote

For example, the low caste Keralite prefers working unskilled jobs in the Gulf, but the low caste UPite works unskilled jobs within India.

That would tend to confirm my hypothesis of a 5IQ advantage for southern India
The keralite worker earns 10X the Indian salary and builds his own house
and his family moves to middle class

Sriram said...


the 5000 who left not only had the IQ but also the education.. the base value of 40k refers to the max potential.. the actual values of 150+IQ people who were also highly educated would be much less than 40k (perhaps half or a third of that) and so the effective percent of high IQ emigration is a lot more than 12.5% (probably closer to 25% or 30%).

Anonymous said...

Spelling bee winner

Mishra, Sameer - North Indian brahmin

Runner Up

Chand, Sidharth - North Indian upper caste

Anonymous said...

rec1man here

Blogger nsam said...

the 5000 who left not only had the IQ but also the education.. the base value of 40k refers to the max potential.. the actual values of 150+IQ people who were also highly educated would be much less than 40k (perhaps half or a third of that) and so the effective percent of high IQ emigration is a lot more than 12.5% (probably closer to 25% or 30%).


I agree, the real number was more like 25% to 30%
But even in the worst of economies, about 70% stayed back
giving a huge bench strength in the above 150IQ that stayed back

And as the economy improves the 30% will shrink to 10%

My main reason for starting this exercise was to disprove the absurd 81 IQ being bandied about
And with a single modal distribution, there would be severe shortage of IQ > 125

Whereas with my multi-modal bell curves, shows there is 200 million brahmin and upper castes with > 110 IQ

Anonymous said...

That would tend to confirm my hypothesis of a 5IQ advantage for southern India
The keralite worker earns 10X the Indian salary and builds his own house and his family moves to middle class

Not really. The basic assumption is that all types of low skilled jobs require workers with low IQ. My take is that the North Indian worker doesn't want to work in the Islamic environment in the Gulf while the South Indian worker doesn't mind working in that environment. This is logical because at least 40% of Keralites are Christian or Muslim. In short, this doesn't have much to do with IQ.

Anonymous said...

Working in islamic environment vs staying forever in islamic environment

A whole lot of non-muslims , including westerners are willing to work in islamic environment
to earn 5X the money and get rich quick

It is not a big deal to keep under the radar for a few years, build up your nest egg in tax free dirhams and return to kerala as the rich man of the village

The kerala gulf worker is 60% muslim, 30% xtian and 10% hindu
They have ads in papers saying hindus need not apply
The muslims are afraid of hindu polytheism rubbing off on them

Besides, the kerala hindu is 95% literate vs 60% literate for the northern hindu

Anonymous said...

Haha, some indians are really despaired of their IQ. I am really not interested in argueing with you guys. I only have one question: Why with its >200 million IQ 110 above population, India did so poor in international math olympiad? Even worse than Vietnam with 80 million people and 2 digits IQ?

Anonymous said...

hmm, I guess that you are probably from vietnam
Hmm, why did the vietnamese convert 100% to buddhism?
in 200BC

The 200 mil above 110 is based on 60 years from now when the economy improves

Second, in communist countries, things like the math olympiad are based on national prestige and send in their top tier, kind of like the soviets under communism

Whereas in india, the 2nd tier goes to olympiads and there are caste quotas
The first tier is busy trying to get into the US
The olympiads dont get much state help

As I said, keep thinking the avg Indian IQ is 80, and underestimate and watch the brahmins and upper castes clean up

Think of the brazil IQ model
India has that on steroids

Any one running IQ tests in the black slums of brazil will also come up with 75 IQ

Anonymous said...

The arrow of time
Druids vs brahmins


There have been numerous links between the druids and the brahmins


Brahmins show up in history circa 2000BC with the Rig Veda

whereas per Wiki
Celts show up around 900BC
which sort of links to Zoraster's expulsion of Atharvans from Iran

Anonymous said...

rec1man here

Understanding the standard deviation
From wiki

Assume India has an Avg IQ of 80 and a 15 SD
and a unimodal bell curve
Thanks to bell curve the number of people with high IQ falls off very fast

and a 1.1 bil pop

For IQ above 95, 1 SD ,
16% of 1.1 bil = 170 mil

For IQ above 110, 2 SD
2.3% = 28 mil

For IQ above 125,
0.130% = 1.400 million

For IQ above 140,
0.003% = 33000


Of course, I am the first to agree that Dalit, muslim and Tribal IQ
about 40% of the total, cluster very slightly above African IQ

And this segment is totally absent in the diaspora to the west
and is 50% of the diaspora in Fiji, Mauritius and the caribbean

Then from above, make a sanity check, whether the below is possible with just 1 million above 125 IQ and 33000 above 140IQ

think of the software, the back office jobs, the spread of buddhism, the indian civilisaion in south east asia,
the call centers,
the patel motels, the spelling bees, the nukes, the ballistic missile defence, the moon shot,
The Brahmos cruise missile and Sukhoi-30MKI Flanker,
and the performance of the diaspora in western countries

Anonymous said...

A simplified trimodal IQ curve for India

40% ( dalits, muslims + tribals ) @ 85IQ ( african american level )

40% ( Backward peasant caste ) @ 95IQ
( midway between hispanics and blue collar whites )

20% ( upper caste + brahmins ) @ 110IQ
( Ashkenazi levels )

Average = 94 ( in 60 years )

Anonymous said...

rec1man here


Not necessary to adopt WASP ethos (whatever that is). The SIB (South Indian Brahmin) community in Canada (or Toronto at least) has formulated their own creed, work ethic, subculture, whatever you want to call it. Very successful, allowing them to maintain most Indian cultural trappings while having very high success rate in the capitalistic culture here. Things such as food habits (vegetarian cuisine), fine culture (music/dance), "mother language", certain aspects of religion as well as "morals" are all maintained - and they fit like a glove into society. If I'm not mistaken they even manage to maintain arranged marriages

Anonymous said...

In a middle class hindu locale in Pune, mostly merchant caste, with still a fair degree of malnutrition

Low birth weight vs IQ study in Pune

Social and Environmental Assessment

Thirty per cent of the mothers had some degree of college education, whereas one per cent of the mothers were illiterate. Five per cent of the children lived in independent bungalows and the rest in lower and middle class localities. Most of the children (91 %) came from middle or lower middle class families (SES II or III). Fifty six per cent of the children lived in overcrowded houses.

A multiple linear regression analysis was done using IQ as the outcome variable and infant and socio-environmental information as predictor variable. The predictor. variables included socio-economic status, locality, spaciousness of the house, mother's education, etc., mental and motor age on}3ayley Scales at one year (available from the previous phase of the study), and chronic medical problems like seizures and asthma.

The regression analysis showed that mother's education (β coefficient 0.33373, p <0.001), spaciousness of the house (β coefficient 0.19424, p <0.020), and a mental age at one year (β coefficient 0.22959, p <0.009) had a significant impact on the 6 year IQ. Chronic medical problems had a negative impact on the 6 year IQ (β coefficient - 0.3573, P <0:020). Multiple R of the final module was 0.4354.


IQ = 50-69
Control Group = 0%
Low Birth Weight = 3.5%

IQ = 70-84
Control Group = 5.6%
Low Birth Weight = 13.4%

IQ = 85-110
Control Group = 77.5%
Low Birth Weight = 70.1%

IQ = Above 110
Control Group = 16.9%
Low Birth Weight = 10%

Mean IQ
Control Group = 101
Low Birth Weight = 94

Anonymous said...

US imports Indian heavy water
made in Indian nuclear ovens

Anyone still believe IQ=81??

Do the math with the bell curve SDs


US steps up demand for heavy water from India

Importing companies mainly use it for non-nuclear purpose

Heavy demand

4,400 kg of nuclear-grade heavy water exported to a US firm recently

Two orders received for 11 tonnes and 4.6 tonnes of heavy water

Higher demand foreseen for ‘superior purity’ of Indian product

Anil Sasi

New Delhi, June 1 Even as the fate of the Indo-US nuclear deal hangs in the balance, India is gradually emerging as a big-ticket exporter of heavy water.

Heavy water is a sensitive ingredient used mainly as a moderator and coolant in nuclear power stations as well as research reactors.

The US is emerging as the biggest customer for Indian heavy water exports, while South Korea has also ordered a consignment, even as the firms from these countries that have placed orders are using the compound largely for non-nuclear purpose.

The Heavy Water Board (HWB) — a constituent unit under the Department of Atomic Energy that is primarily responsible for production of heavy water — recently executed an export order of 4,400 kg of nuclear-grade heavy water to US firm Spectra Gases Inc.

According to official sources, the New Jersey-based company has now placed another export order for 11 tonnes of heavy water.

Anonymous said...

Satellites by the Indian second tier

srael Chooses Indian PSLV To Launch New Spy Satellite

By BARBARA OPALL-ROME in Tel Aviv, Israel
K. S. JAYARAMAN in New Delhi, India

In a controversial break from a longstanding military space policy of strategic self-reliance, Israel has decided to launch its next spy satellite aboard India's Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) rather than its own indigenous Shavit rocket.

In a Nov. 10 interview, a Ministry of Defense source estimated the PSLV launch cost at no more than $15 million, whereas the Shavit price tag ranges from $15 million to $20 million.

Government and industry sources here conceded that Israel's embrace of the PSLV was driven in large part by a loss of confidence in the Shavit, which has had reliability problems over the past decade. T

Indian satellites since 1979
CARTOSAT-1 carries two state-of-the-art panchromatic (PAN) cameras that take black and white stereoscopic pictures of the earth in the visible region of the electromagnetic spectrum. The swath covered by these high resolution PAN cameras is 30 km and their spatial resolution is 2.5 metres.


Anonymous said...

The $28 Foot

P eople who live inside the world's many war zones, from Afghanistan to Rwanda, may never have heard of New York or Paris, but they are likely to know of a town in northern India called Jaipur. Jaipur is famous in strife-torn areas as the birthplace of an extraordinary prosthesis, or artificial limb, known as the Jaipur foot, that has revolutionized life for millions of land-mine amputees.

The beauty of the Jaipur foot is its lightness and mobility--those who wear it can run, climb trees and pedal bicycles--and its low price. While a prosthesis for a similar level of amputation can cost several thousand dollars in the U.S., the Jaipur foot costs only $28 in India. Sublimely low-tech, it is made of rubber (mostly), wood and aluminum and can be assembled with local materials. In Afghanistan craftsmen hammer the foot together out of spent artillery shells. In Cambodia, where roughly 1 out of every 380 people is a war amputee, part of the foot's rubber components are scavenged from truck tires.

The inventors of the Jaipur foot seem a mismatched pair. Dr. Pramod Karan Sethi, 70, an orthopedic surgeon, is a fellow of Britain's Royal College of Surgeons, while his collaborator, an artisan named Ram Chandra, reached only the fourth grade in Jaipur.

Chandra is a kind of Pygmalion: he can turn whatever piece of stone or gold he touches into a lifelike creation. Born into a family that had been master artisans for four generations, he quickly established himself as one of Jaipur's finest sculptors, and his talents were sought by temple priests and princes. "If all I saw was your nose, it would be enough for me to sculpt a likeness of your entire body," says Chandra, 75, whose folded hands are like a box of old wooden tools. "It's all to do with proportions. That is the way God has made men."

Then one day, while riding his bicycle to the hospital, Chandra ran over a nail, and his tire went flat. He wheeled his bicycle to a roadside stall, where the repairman was busy retreading a truck tire with vulcanized rubber. Once his bicycle was fixed, Chandra raced to the hospital and consulted with Sethi. Soon Chandra returned to the tire shop with an amputee patient and a foot cast. He asked the repairman if he could cast a rubber foot. "He agreed,'' Sethi says, "and refused to accept any money once he found out why we were doing it."

The resulting limb takes only 45 minutes to build and fit onto the patient and is sturdy enough to last for more than five years.

In 1971 Sethi felt confident enough about the invention to present it to British orthopedic surgeons at Oxford, who were impressed by the artificial limb's suppleness and durability.

the International Committee of the Red Cross discovered that the Jaipur foot was the hardiest limb for the mountainous Afghan terrain.

Since then, countless land-mine victims in many countries have been fitted with the Jaipur foot. "Western aid agencies have helped millions of amputees, and they've found that they can't do it as cheaply as with the Jaipur foot,"

Anonymous said...

Economic growth in Gujurat where most of Fabian socialism has been removed

It is a record growth rate that any Indian state would love to boast of. Western Indian state of Gujarat, headed by Chief Minister Narendra Modi has recorded the highest growth rate - 12 per cent - among the Indian states.

While India's economy is expanding at over 8 per cent, Gujarat has ended 2006-07 with a growth rate of more than 12 per cent.

Agriculture sector posted a robust 10.2 per cent growth, taking the overall economic growth of the state to 12.17 per cent in the last financial year, a Gujarat government press statement said here.

Sriram said...

There are many indian mathematicians, statisticians, and physicists in sundry US universities to make a reasonable count.. It should be noted that many smart folks entirely shunned science and math for engineering/business/medicine/ (higher paying professions).. this continues to be a serious problem as even elite Indian institutes have a very hard time recruiting minimally decent PhDs (the number of vacant positions is staggering).

Regarding olympiads.. there hasnt been a big organizing efforts or even importance given to this (these needs a lot of systematic preparation) compared to what probably occurs in china and some east asian countries. Still the 2004 results isnt that bad (around 10th position in most areas and 1st position in one) There doesn't seem to any reasonable explanation on why the Astronomy team should do well except (in my estimation) extra interest taken by the people who organize that team.

Subject Medals Rank Ncountries

Math 4 Silver 14 85
2 Bronze

Physics 1 Gold 11 71
2 Silver
2 Bronze

Chemistry 1 Gold 11 60
1 Silver
2 Bronze

Biology 3 Silver 10 40
1 Bronze

Astronomy 4 Gold 1 75
1 Bronze

Prof. Srinivasa Varadhan (SIB) won the Abel prize last year (and his son is a well known wall streeter)

Anonymous said...

Simplified Trimodal Model for current and future ( 60 years ) IQ

Upper Castes + brahmins, 20% @ 110
Backward Castes, 40% @ 95
Dalits. Tribals. Muslims, 40% @ 85
Avg = 94

Upper Castes + brahmins,
20% @ 110 - 5 Flynn, 105
Backward Castes,
40% @ 95 - 7 Flynn, 88
Dalits. Tribals. Muslims,
40% @ 85 - 10 Flynn, 75
Avg = 86.2

rec1man said...

Some details on math olympiad in India

The Indian National Mathematics Olympiad (INMO for short) is an Olympiad in mathematics held in India.

The INMO examination is conducted by the MO Cell in February of every year.

Some perks enjoyed:

* Students qualifying the INMO are automatically eligible for admission to the B.Sc. (Hons) Mathematics course in the Chennai Mathematical Institute.
* Students qualifying the INMO are also eligible for an NBHM scholarship that currently stands at about Rs. 2500 ( $60 ) per month, if they continue their studies in mathematics.
* Students who make it to the IMO are eligible for the prestigious KVPY fellowship provided they pursue their studies in the science subjects in India. The fellowship amount stands at Rs. 4000 ( $100 ) per month.


As we can see from above
this uses 12th grade students and the selection happens in February

The all india 12th grade school leaving exams ( for med school and engineering ) are in April and the IIT entrance exams are in early May

The 12th grader who is of the second tier, and wants to go into science / math will go for these exams and incentives

Whereas the first tier of the 12th grade will try to prepare for med school or IIT which is far more lucrative than the miserable scholarship of $100 per month

rec1man said...

Size of Indian nuclear arsenal

The types of weapons India is believed to have available for its arsenal include:

* a pure fission plutonium bomb with a yield of 12 kt;
* a fusion boosted fission bomb with a yield of 15-20 kt, made with weapon-grade ploutonium;
* a fusion boosted fission bomb design, made with reactor-grade plutonium;
* low yield pure fission plutonium bomb designs with yields from 0.1 kt to 1 kt;
* a thermonuclear bomb design with a yield of 200-300 kt.


The most widely accepted estimates of India's plutonium production have been made by David Albright ([Albright et al 1997], [Albright 2000]). His most recent estimate (October 2000) was that by the end of 1999 India had available between 240 and 395 kg of weapon grade plutonium for weapons production, with a median value of 310 kg. He suggests that this is sufficient for 45 - 95 weapons (median estimate 65). The production of weapon grade plutonium has actually been greater, but about 130 kg of plutonium has been consumed - principally in fueling two plutonium reactors, but also in weapons tests. His estimate for India's holdings of less-than-weapons-grade plutonium (reactor or fuel grade plutonium) are 4200 kg of unsafeguarded plutonium (800 kg of this already separated) and 4100 kg of IAEA safeguarded plutonium (25 kg of this separated). This unsafeguarded quantity could be used to manufacture roughly 1000 nuclear weapons, if India so chose (which would give it the third largest arsenal in the world, behind only the U.S. and Russia)

rec1man said...

Dalit-brahmin co-option

Bhaujan Samaj Party chief Mayawati is the most intriguing character in the battle unfolding in the Uttar Pradesh assembly elections.

In the past, slogans like Tilak, taraju aur talwar, unko maro juthe char ('Brahmins, traders and the warrior caste should be kicked') used to be the mantra of electoral success when Kanshi Ram, her mentor and the founder of BSP, took his movement to the economically poor and socially condemned Dalits, who were in search of a leader and a political party.

For the first time, she has given tickets to 89 Brahmins. This may seem audacious. It is indeed unprecedented in the caste-ridden society where social prejudices and identities are at the very core of political action-reactions.

An interesting scenario is opening in the coming UP election. Mayawati needs the undivided votes of Brahmins to make a significant impact in UP

Mayawati is Mayawati

Behanji, as she is known amongst her cadres, Mayawati is a one-woman-army leading the BSP. She has this time found a new slogan � Brahmin shankh bajaega, hathi badhta jaega (Brahmin will blow the bugle and the elephant [BSP's symbol] will make progress)

Sriram said...


the students who take part in the olympiads are among the brighter lot (a few them have also topped at the IIT entrance exams) although the processes of selection and training may be hurried. So your point about these kids being second tier is faulty. I know one of these kids who is now pursuing a doctorate in u chicago in math. So lets be accurate where possible. Of late, I notice that most math olympiaders are from the western cities of pune and mumbai.. perhaps due to proximity of main training centers (maybe many outstanding folks are missed.. but then its purely voluntary)

I'd grant that the chinese system and population have the capacity to produce great mathematicians (especially problem solvers), especially in areas where spatial imagery is advantageous . more so than the indian system and population (which may not produce as many problem solvers but probably produce math researchers which is a different type of skill, posing problems) and math professors.

your trimodal chart is a good summary and perhaps is the most succint representation that we now have.

Anonymous said...

***hmm, I guess that you are probably from vietnam
Hmm, why did the vietnamese convert 100% to buddhism?
in 200BC***

I'm not a Vietnamese. But I do know Vietnamese do keep their traditional religion while accept Buddhism and Confuscionism. That means they did'nt convert to Buddism, just let Buddism and Confuscionism enrich their mind.

***The 200 mil above 110 is based on 60 years from now when the economy improves***

God/Budda/Alahu bless you!

***Second, in communist countries, things like the math olympiad are based on national prestige and send in their top tier, kind of like the soviets under communism

Whereas in india, the 2nd tier goes to olympiads and there are caste quotas
The first tier is busy trying to get into the US
The olympiads dont get much state help***

The proud, the few, the IITers did not shine in any of international programing competition either, although software and programer are the #1 export product of India.

***As I said, keep thinking the avg Indian IQ is 80, and underestimate and watch the brahmins and upper castes clean up

Think of the brazil IQ model
India has that on steroids

Any one running IQ tests in the black slums of brazil will also come up with 75 IQ***

Yeah, India like Brazil is full of potential and will always be that way. Only concern for India is her population vs resource. Brazil can export natural resource based products to become a welloff country while India can't.

rec1man said...


Thanks for the correction

However, 2 of my main points stand
The olympiads are not well known in most of india
The students mostly target the IIT and engineering and medical college seats
Second, unlike the pro-active state sponsorship in commie countries
in the indian context, this is somewhat a haphazard affair and not targeted on high priority

rec1man said...

The resilient brahmin

Besides, south Indian Brahmins continue to thrive in the private sector, in the arts and related areas, in new
fields of technology: the Indian contribution to software development, feted worldwide, is primarily the achievement of
south Indian Brahmins.

How did the Brahmin become so powerful in the first place? Recent research on caste questions if they were, in fact, all
that important. The central thesis of Dipankar Gupta's Interrogating Caste, for instance, is that there was no single caste
hierarchy, which was universally acknowledged and accepted by everyone in the caste system. "Every caste has always
considered itself superior to every other caste," said Gupta, who teaches sociology at Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi.
"But the poorer castes, lacking wealth and power, never dared to openly say so!"
"The original Brahmins were not so much priests as adept in
matters supernatural, masters of magico-religious forces, wizards, medicine men." As much as he feared the Kshatriya's
sword, the common man must have been terrified of the Brahmin's capacity to cast spells.
Whatever their position in the distant past, there is no doubt that Brahmins reached the zenith of their prestige under
British rule. "The British needed a class of scribes to man their lower bureaucratic positions," said Gupta. "In those days
the only literate castes were the Brahmins and Kayasthas, and these were the ones the British recruited. These salaried
positions gave the Brahmins extraordinary power over Indian society."

Periyar raised the
banner of backward caste revolt in Tamil Nadu. "The castes which backed Periyar were hardly the wretched of the
earth," said Gupta. "They were rich, powerful castes, unwilling to stomach Brahmin superiority."


But the bulk of Dalits in the villages has realised that the main
enemies of Dalits are not Brahmins. Their real oppressors are the intermediate and elite backward castes, who are the
powerful landowners today." Agreed Sheth: "That is why an upper caste-Dalit coalition, though unstable, is at least
possible, as we have seen in UP. It is proving more tenable than a backward-Dalit coalition."


From memorising mantras to memorising equations and formulae is, after all, not that large a leap. "Ingesting large
amounts of data, doing well in exams, articulating a point of view cogently: these are all skills," said Deshpande.
"Brahmins, through centuries of practice, possess these skills. The recently empowered castes are finding that such
skills are not easy to acquire.


A good number of second generation employees do indeed owe their success to their hereditary academic ability;

"Across much of north India, Brahmins have joined forces with castes like Rajputs and Banias to form broadbased upper
caste coalitions," said Sheth. "This is a recent development. In the past, before the backward classes became politically
conscious, these upper castes, especially Brahmins and Thakurs, were the main rivals for state power." Such a coalition
so augments their numbers that no political party can ignore them. But the upper castes have done more. "They have
been very clever at exploiting the political and regional fragmentation of the backward castes to their advantage,"
observed Yogendra Yadav.


Beyond politics, in the professional world, the Brahmin's main survival weapon has been their legacy of education.


Of course, there is always the private sector. As long as reservations remain confined to state-owned services, Brahmins
can rejoice: for the private sector is expanding, while the state sector is shrinking. It may be mere coincidence, but the
move away from increasing state control began in 1991, one year after the Mandal agitation. As second generation and
third generation economic reforms follow, as more and more areas are privatised and more and more PSUs disinvested,
Brahmin hegemony is likely to get a fresh lease of life. By the time the backwards and Dalits get to rule the state empire,
they may find, like the later Mughal emperors, that there is little of the empire left to rule.

rec1man said...

anonymous wrote
***The 200 mil above 110 is based on 60 years from now when the economy improves***

God/Budda/Alahu bless you!

My model shows that the Flynn effect in the upper castes and brahmins is 5 vs 10 for dalits and africans

which translates to 200 million above 105 right now

and 200 million above 110 in 60 years

rec1man said...

Sanity check India vs Indonesia
at the high end

Indonesia has a population of 235 million, vs 1.1 billion for India

IQ of Indonesia is 90

IQ of India per table is 82

Assume SD = 15


For IQ above 120,

it is 2 SD for Indonesia
which works out to

0.023 x 234 mil = 5.4 million

For India, it works out to 2.5 SD

which works out to
0.005 x 1100 mil = 5.5 million


So both India and Indonesia supposedly have the same number of people , 5.5 mil with IQ > 120

So what are the high end achievements of Indonesia,
and India ??

rec1man said...

Lord Archer: 'Indians are the new Jews and are taking over Britain'

By Pamela Timms
Last updated at 6:11 PM on 02nd June 2008

* commentsComments (0)
* Add to My Stories Add to My Stories


New Book: Lord Archer

Indians are the 'new Jews' of Britain, according to disgraced Tory peer Lord Archer.

Archer, who is touring India to promote his latest book, said Indian businessmen are 'taking over' Britain and that Indian mayors and councillors are taking over local government throughout the country.

His comments were made following a number of Indian takeovers of major British companies, such as Jaguar, Land Rover, Corus Steel and the Scottish whisky gian Whyte and Mackay.

In a television interview staged in a glitzy new shopping malls near Delhi, Archer said India's impact on Britain will be 'massive'.

"It is going to be taken over by Indians, and I don't joke," he said.

"Now what you [Indians] are doing is what the Jews did 30-40 years ago when the came to England after the war.

"They took over the local councils and they became mayors. Now they are in Parliament.

"The Indians are now taking over the local councils. There are mayors all over England who are Indian.

rec1man said...

Indian foreign exchange reserves




Indian rank = 4
Total reserves = $316 billion

rec1man said...

Some recent companies taken over by Indian merchants during the last 3 months

Unlike chinese companies or arab companies which face public outcry if they try to buy western companies, the western public is indifferent to Indian purchases


Sona Oke Gawa acquires precision forging biz of ThyssenKrupp.

Auto ancillary Sona Oke Gawa on Monday said it has acquired the precision forging business of Germany's ThyssenKrupp Group for an undisclosed amount.

Tata to buy stake in Deutsche Telekom unit: report

Jan 27, 2008

BERLIN (AFP) — Indian conglomerate Tata plans to buy a stake in a high-tech unit of Germany's Deutsche Telekom which would see thousands of jobs outsourced, according to a German weekly newsmagazine.

MUMBAI: Tata Chemicals Ltd on Thursday said it will acquire US-based General Chemical Industrial Products Inc (GCIP) for over USD 1 billion.


Strides Arcolab acquires 17.7-per cent stake in Genepharm Australasia news
08 February 2008

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Integrated manufacturer and exporter of finished pharmaceutical dosage forms, Strides Arcolabs has acquired a 17.7-per cent stake in the fourth largest Australian pharmaceutical company Genepharm Australasia, taking its stake in the ASX-listed company to 19.8 per cent.


MUMBAI: Biocon will acquire 70 per cent stake in German pharmaceutical AxiCorp GmbH for euro 30 million

India's Kemrock Industries & Exports Ltd said it has agreed to acquire Italy's Top Glass SpA for an undisclosed sum.

NEW DELH: Country's fifth largest software exporter HCL Technologies on Wednesday announced the acquisition of US-based banking software company Capital Stream for $40 million


Sakthi Sugars buys Swedish auto parts maker
Friday, February 22, 2008 12:44 [IST]

New Delhi: Sakthi Sugars Ltd today said its European unit has acquired Swedish auto-parts maker Arvika Gjuteri AB.

The company's European subsidiary Orlandofin BV has acquired Sweden-based Arvika Gjuteri AB, which has a production capacity of 28,000 MTs per annum of castings for buses, trucks, and heavy off-road vehicles, and a machine shop, a company statement said.


MUMBAI: Healthcare equipment manufacturer Opto Circuits on Monday said it will buy US-based Criticare Systems Inc for about $70 million


Mumbai: Agri services provider Jain Irrigation said on 3 March it has acquired controlling stake in Switzerland-based Thomas Machines SA for an undisclosed sum.
“Jain Irrigation has acquired 69.75% shareholding of Thomas Machines SA with full management and operational control,” the company said.


MUMBAI: Everest Kanto Cylinder has entered into an asset purchase agreement with US-based Reunion Industries, Inc to buy all of the assets and liabilities for cash consideration of $64.25 million, subject to adjustment and further subject to Bankruptcy Court proceedings and other regulatory approvals.


NEW DELHI: In one of the largest overseas acquisition deals by an Indian firm in the IT sector, Triton Corp is close to striking a transaction to acquire a $260 million UK-based IT & telecom services firm. The deal value is believed to be in the region of $120 million

MUMBAI: In a bid to expand the services business of the company, CyberMedia India on Thursday said it has acquired all the assets of California-based TDA Group Inc for an undisclosed amount.


SYDNEY: India's leading winemaker Champagne Indage is set to buy Australian Vintage's Loxton winery for 60 million Australian dollars ($54.6 million).


MUMBAI : Domestic brokerage firm Religare Enterprises is close to acquiring London’s oldest broking firm; Hichens, Harrison & Co. The deal is expected to be announced by this weekend. The size of the acquisition is pegged over $100 million (


EW DELHI: RFCL Limited, an ICICI Venture company, announces its first global acquisition in the space of veterinary healthcare through a share purchase agreement with Marsing & Co Limited A/S for its Germany based subsidiary co Bremer Pharma GmbH


Hindujas eye French giant
Abhineet Kumar / Mumbai March 31, 2008
Controlling stake in auto-parts firm may cost $1.5bn.

The Hinduja Group, promoters of India’s second-largest truck-maker Ashok Leyland, is in talks with Europe’s third-largest auto component manufacturer Valeo SA to buy a controlling stake in the company in a deal that is expected to be around $1.5 billion

anmar buys US-based Matrix Metals
BS Reporter / Chennai April 01, 2008
The Rs 1,596 crore Sanmar Group has acquired Matrix Metals LLC, a portfolio company of Jefferies Capital Partners.

Synchron buys French co facility

Ahmedabad, April 1

Synchron Research Services has acquired the stand-alone bio-analytical and bio-marker facility of Parexel International in France for nearly $ 6.7 million.


Hyderabad, April 1 Dr Reddy’s Laboratories Ltd has announced that it has entered into a definitive agreement with The Dow Chemical Company to acquire a portion of Dowpharma Small Molecules business associated with its UK sites in Mirfield and Cambridge


MUMBAI: Sealing its second acquisition in a week, Tata group company, Telcon, on Friday said that it has signed a deal for acquiring a 60 per cent stake in Spanish company, Comoplesa Lebrero SA.


LONDON: The oldest stockbroker in the city of London has become the latest British institution to be acquired by an Indian company, snapped up in a 55 million pounds ($100 million) deal by a Delhi-based brokerage firm.

Hichens Harrison, which has been trading for 205 years, was taken over Friday by Religare Enterprises, which is controlled by Malvinder and Shivinder Mohan Singh, owners of the drug company Ranbaxy.


MUMBAI: In a bid to expand its global footprint, Tata Motors has acquired Japanese auto giant Nissan’s Pretoria-based manufacturing plant for an undisclosed amount.


Jubilant Organosys acquires Canada's Draxis for $255 mn


WNS buys UK`s Call 24/7
BS Reporter / Mumbai April 8, 2008
WNS (Holdings), the NYSE-listed BPO company, has acquired UK-based Call 24/7, an auto insurance claims processing services provider,


BANGALORE/MUMBAI/PUNE: Forgings major Bharat Forge is believed to have acquired an 89% stake in French forgings company Groupe Sifcor


New Delhi: Anil Ambani-promoted Reliance Big Entertainment has acquired the digital images business of US-based DTS Inc for an undisclosed amount.

The American firm's business DTS Digital Images (DDI), also known as Lowry Digital Images,


Bangalore-based Biocon declined to comment, the newspaper said. Biocon which makes insulin, cholestrol-lowering statins and other branded drugs bought 70 percent of German marketing firm Axicorp GmbH for 30 million euros


SIRO Clinpharm (SIRO), one of India’s leading clinical research organisations (CRO), has signed an agreement to acquire Germany-based Omega Mediation Group, a leading mid-sized European CRO, for an undisclosed amount in an all-cash deal.

MUMBAI: Auto major Mahindra & Mahindra (M&M) is understood to be in an advanced stage of negotiation to acquire Belgium gear-maker VCST. The deal size could be in the range of around euro 300 million ($475 million


Mumbai: Satyam Computer Services Ltd has acquired construction equipment maker Caterpillar Inc's market research and customer analytics operations for $60 million in an all-cash deal,


NEW DELHI: Reliance Communications Ltd, India's No 2 mobile operator, said on Thursday it had acquired eWaves, a UK-based operator of fourth-generation (4G) services, and would launch 4G services globally.


Tatas to take stake in Italian auto designer Pininfarina news
24 April 2008


3i Infotech buys US-based Regulus Group
Tuesday, April 29, 2008 17:13 [IST]

Mumbai: Global information technology company 3i Infotech on Tuesday announced acquisition of US-based Regulus Group and its subsidiaries, an independent remittance and document processing services provider.

The cost of acquisition is $80 million
NEW DELHI: Steelmaker Essar Steel said on Thursday it planned to acquire US steel company Esmark, valuing the deal at 1.1 billion dollars

MUMBAI: Pharmaceutical firm Strides Arcolab on Wednesday said it will acquire a majority stake of 55% in ASX-listed Genepharm Australasia

MUMBAI: Dr Reddy’s Laboratories (DRL) on Wednesday said it will acquire US-based BASF’s pharmaceutical contract business and its manufacturing facility for an undisclosed amount.


LONDON: S Kumars, through its subsidiary, has just acquired a controlling stake in one of Italy's leading fabric manufacturers, Klopman, for an enterprise value of Euro 70 million ($ 107 mn).


MUMBAI: Great Offshore is set to acquire Cayman Islands-based SeaDragon Offshore for $1.4 billion that would give the Indian company rigs, which can be deployed for ultra deep water discovery.
NEW DELHI: One of India's largest air conditioner coil manufacturer, Lloyd Electric and Engineering Ltd (LEEL), today announced the acquisition of Luvata Czech in Prague through its Special Purpose Vehicle - Lloyd Coils Czech. LEEL is a part of USD 220-million Lloyd Group which provides air-conditioning solutions for clients such as railways, defence, and telecom among others in India.

NEW DELHI: Three Indian brokerage houses — Indiabulls Securities, Kotak Securities and Enam Securities — are said to be in race for acquiring Birmingham-based stockbroker Arden Partners.


NEW DELHI: Videocon, which is present in various sectors, today said it is studying General Electric's invitation for bid for its appliances division, which is being put on the block.

NEW DELHI: Anil Ambani Group company Reliance Communications is likely to emerge a front runner to acquire UK-based Global Virtual Network Operator Vanco, a move that would bring under Indian company's fold a virtual network in various parts of the world.


Kirloskar Electric Company (KEC) into M&A action. The Bangalore-headquartered electrical and power equipment company has mounted its bid to acquire Germany’s Lloyd Dynamowerke (LDW) based on an estimated enterprise valuation of around $100 million,

Mumbai: Electric equipment manufacturer Crompton Greaves has announced the acquisition of French company Societe Nouvelle de Maintenance Transformateurs (Sonomatra) at an investmenet of around Euro 1.3 million.

Anonymous said...

Of late, I notice that most math olympiaders are from the western cities of pune and mumbai.. perhaps due to proximity of main training centers

I am from Pune and can comment on this. In Pune there is a training group run by the Bhaskaracharya foundation. They train 10th grade students (14-15 year olds) over a year for the Olympiad. Unfortunately the lack of prestige and reward associated with the Olympiad combined with the importance of the 10th grade Board exam means that they struggle to get students interested.

Further, the NCERT runs the far more prestigious (1000 students from all of India) National Talent Search exam in the 10th grade which acts to suck away talent from the class preparing for the Olympiad. You can check the results at the link below to confirm that the majority of the students from Pune going to the INMO are from the 2nd and 3rd tier colleges.

rec1man said...

Merger, Indian Style:
Buy a Brand, Leave It Alone
By ERIC BELLMAN in Mumbai, India, and JACKIE RANGE in New Delhi
March 22, 2008; Page A9

Ford Motor Co.'s Jaguar and Land Rover brands might seem ripe candidates for a radical overhaul and a swift swing of the ax. Instead, India's Tata Motors Ltd., which is expected to formally agree to buy the brands in the coming week for $2 billion, likely will take a different approach: Do next to nothing.

Rather than seeking to wring profits out of two luxury automotive brands that frequently have lost money, Tata is looking to learn from them to help launch its own global expansion in autos, using the brands' own management team and a full roster of employees.

Tata sees benefits from their knowledge, their technology and their sales networks. Although the brands have been plagued by high manufacturing costs and other difficulties, Tata doesn't seem concerned about short-term losses.

Eventually, it may bring Jaguars and Land Rovers to India and sell its own cars overseas, which the company hopes will translate into profits over the longer term. An acquisition is less expensive than creating a global brand from scratch. This approach is common for Indian companies that, for the first time, are seeking to translate fast growth at home into an international presence. It is coming to define mergers and acquisitions, Indian-style.

India's Essar Global Ltd. last year paid more than $1.7 billion to acquire Canada's Algoma Steel Inc. and kept its management and its suppliers. Far from laying off employees and sending their jobs to India, Essar gave them a raise. Meanwhile, it sent a few directors to Canada to learn from the company.

Technology and outsourcing company Infosys Technologies Ltd. has $2 billion set aside for acquisitions, but will buy only when it is welcomed by, and can work with, the current management of targets.

Bharat Forge Ltd., one of India's largest auto-parts makers, has made many small acquisitions in the U.S. and Europe and done little to shake them up.

"Indian companies and culture show a tendency not to come in and turn things upside down," said Gene Donnelly, global managing partner for advisory and tax at PricewaterhouseCoopers in New York, who has helped advise many India companies on how to deal with mergers and acquisitions. "A Western acquirer goes in and says, 'I need to take costs out.'"

Tech giant Wipro Technologies, which has spent more than $1 billion on overseas acquisitions in the past few years, looks in part to its new takeover targets to teach it things, like how to understand local culture, the buying habits of customers, or the expectations employees will have about vacation.

In many cases, managers later are given a larger part of the Wipro Ltd. unit to run. For example, Tim Matlack, who headed the energy and utilities consultancy business of American Management Systems Inc., which Wipro bought in 2001, now heads up Wipro Technologies' global consulting business.

"From our point of view, it's important; culturally, strategically, sometimes even technologically and of course, financially to get the team to continue to run that business," said Lakshminarayana, chief strategy and M&A officer for Wipro Technologies (who goes by one name).

No company has played a greater role in crafting that approach to acquisitions than Tata Group, India's flagship industrial conglomerate and most active international acquirer. "We have sought to keep management in place after we acquire a company," Ratan Tata, chairman of Tata Motors as well as Tata Sons Ltd., the holding company for the conglomerate, said in a recent interview. "We pride ourselves on our ability to motivate management's plans."

One of the first major international acquisitions by an Indian company was Tata Tea Ltd.'s takeover of one of the U.K.'s biggest tea brands, Tetley Tea, in 2000.

To this day, no Tetley directors or senior management have been asked to leave. Tata, instead, has sent its managers to work for Tetley and learn about tea buying and branding and exporting to new markets. Tata Tea, for its part has invested more money in Tetley and helped it expand through its own acquisitions.

"Experts say you have to slash, burn, cut and we have not. People might say that is foolish," says R. K. Krishna Kumar, president and managing director of Tata Tea. "Sometimes acquisitions should have an equivalent impact on the acquiring company."

He says Tata Tea has applied what it learned from Tetley about making quality consistent for all its tea brands. It has also taken the Tetley brand to new markets, like neighboring Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Another Tata company, Tata Steel Ltd., bought the Anglo-Dutch steel company Corus Group PLC last year for around $12 billion, leaving its management team intact and retaining its employees. From the Corus deal, Tata Steel plans to learn about making higher-quality steel for the booming automotive industry in India.

Still, some are skeptical about the latest potential acquisition by Tata Motors, maker of inexpensive cars and trucks, including the $2,500 "people's car" called the Nano. Tata's current vehicles are "basic nuts and bolts," says Robert Lutts, a Tata shareholder who manages about $500 million as president and chief investment officer at Cabot Money Management in Salem, Mass.

"Once you get into Jaguar/Land Rover, you can make big mistakes... The luxury business is very fickle."

Tata Motors' approach gave it an edge over competing private-equity firms looking at Land Rover and Jaguar. Roger Maddison, an official with the U.K. trade union Unite, said that when he and other labor representatives first learned of Tata's interest in the auto brands, they were relieved.

The unions asked for assurances that Tata wouldn't cut costs in the U.K. by outsourcing assembly of certain components to India. As many as 40,000 jobs in the U.K. -- mainly in the supplier industry -- depend on the Jaguar and Land Rover brands. That doesn't include the roughly 16,000 people that Jaguar and Land Rover directly employ.

During a London meeting with Tata Motors executives in November, Mr. Maddison recalls, "We came straight down and said 'We've obviously got fears that you've got a massive component base across Asia. Would it be your intention to source from Asia into the U.K.?' They hit it straight back and told us 'No way.'"

He said the other private-equity bidders also said they would try to limit layoffs, but the unions support Tata Motors because of its history.

--Stephen Power and Edward Taylor in Frankfurt and Mike Spector in Detroit contributed to this article

rec1man said...

states that the IT “workforce is less heterogeneous than is commonly assumed, and that the large majority of IT professionals come from middle class, educated, urban backgrounds, and from the upper castes.” Of the 132 software engineers who were interviewed, 71 percent belonged to the upper castes.

hree-fourths of their respondents were found to be from forward castes and the rest from backward castes. None were from the sc/st ( dalit ) categories,” points out the NIAS report. However, the report concedes, “Like our sample, most of their respondents worked in the major IT companies such as tcs and Wipro, so the sample is biased towards the ‘cream’ of the IT workforce.” The report further states, “Fuller and Narasimhan’s (2006) smaller study of software professionals in Chennai also found that they come overwhelmingly from Brahmin or forward caste, middle class, urban backgrounds.”

The NIAS study found the socio-economic profile of bpo employees similar to that of those from the IT industry. Fifty-eight percent of the respondents were from metros, and 36 percent from tier two towns such as Mysore and Coimbatore. Thirty-two percent were Brahmins and 23 percent belonged to other upper castes. An earlier study done by Babu P. Ramesh of the VV Giri National Labour Institute, Noida, found that 96 percent of the 277 respondents from the bpo industry belonged to the forward castes.

In 2000, M. Vijayabaskar, a labour economist, conducted a study for the International Labour Organisation and interviewed 160 software engineers in Bangalore and Delhi. The study found that 80 percent of the respondents belonged to forward castes.

rec1man said...

From a pune center that coaches for the math olympiad

Bhaskaracharya Pratishthana is a Pune based Institute founded in 1976 by the world famous Indian Mathematician Prof. Shreeram Abhyankar for conducting research in Higher Mathematics. Over the years a number students who have studied under Prof. Abhyankar ( brahmin ) and Prof. K. C. Sharma ( brahmin), have obtained their Ph.D. degree.
Since opportunities for professional courses for students of Mathematics and consequent lucrative job prospects have
increased over the years, the number of students offering to study Pure Mathematics and doing research in it has considerably dwindled.
The Pratishthana hopes that out of these students who are initially attracted to Mathematics because of job opportunities in the fields of Computer Science and Information Technology, some may feel inclined to undertake research in Higher Mathematics.


This center makes an online appeal for donations

It gets $10000 per year


Students of Bhaskaracharya Pratishthana who have received medals at
The International Mathematical Olympiad (IMO)

Year-wise Performance of Students' from BP.
( all brahmins and upper castes )
Year Name of the student Medal IMO held at the country
1992 Sachin Lodha Bronze (Moscow)
1992 Kaustubh Namjoshi Silver (Moscow, USSR)
1993 Kaustubh Namjoshi Silver (Istanbul, Turky)
1994 Subhash Khot Silver (Hong Kong)
1995 Subhash Khot Silver (Canada)
1996 Kaustubh Deshmukh Silver (India)
1997 Satyen Kale Bronze (Argentina)
1997 Chetan Balwe Silver (Argentina)
1998 Chetan Balwe Gold (Taiwan)
1999 Mandar Joshi Bronze (Romania)
2001 Nikhil Savale Bronze (Washington D.C. USA)
2002 Nikhil Savale Gold (Glasgow, U.K.)
2002 Shubhangi Saraf Bronze (Glasgow, U.K.)
2002 Tanmay Deshpande Bronze (Glasgow, U.K.)
2003 Nikhil Savale Silver (Tokyo, Japan)
2003 Shubhangi Saraf Silver (Tokyo, Japan)
2003 Anand Deopurkar Bronze (Tokyo, Japan)
2004 Anand Deopurkar Silver (Athens, Greece)
2004 Kshipra Bhavalkar Silver (Athens, Greece)
2004 Rohit Joshi Silver (Athens, Greece)
2004 Abhishek Dang Bronze (Athens, Greece)
2005 Abhishek Dang Silver (Merida, Mexico)
2005 Varun Jog Bronze (Merida, Mexico)
2006 Abhishek Dang Honorable mention (Ljublijana, Slovenia)
2006 Varun Jog Bronze (Ljublijana, Sloveniao)
2006 Ashay Burungale Bronze (Ljublijana, Slovenia)
2006 Apurv Nakade Bronze (Ljublijana, Slovenia)
2007 Abhishek Dang Silver (Vietnam)
2007 Prashant Sohoni Honorable mention (Vietnam)

The training will be aimed at introducing novice students to the Olympiad level Mathematics and motivating them to study for the Regional Mathematics Olympiad. The subjects taught will be Algebra, Geometry, Number Theory and Combinatorics.

The details of the programme are as follows:

Duration : 12th May to 24th May 2008

Timing : - Duration will be 4 hr.s per day (Monday to Saturday)

Eligibility : Students entering 9th, 10th, or 11th standard having scored

at least 80% in mathematics

Fees : Rs.2,000/- ( $50)

rec1man said...

Sanity Check
India vs Vietnam at the high end
Vietnam population = 88 mil
Indian population = 1100 mil

Vietnam IQ = 100 ( estimate )
India IQ = 82 from IQ and wealth of nations

Look at the high end, over 120 IQ

For India it is 2.5 SD
= 0.005 * 1100 mil = 5.5 mil

For vietnam it is 1.3 SD
= 0.093 * 88 mil = 8.1 mil

Do a sanity check and compare the high end of vietnam and India

rec1man said...

Google up vedic math ( old sanskrit math pre 1000 BC )

what is vedic math?

Vedic math, simply put, is an approach to mathematics that allows children to perform calculations mentally with great accuracy, simplicity, and speed. For your child, it means having an advantage in mathematics and logic that will help them to excel in the classroom and beyond.

A Fresh Way of Learning Ancient Wisdom

The term "Vedic" refers to the ancient Indian system of mathematics that is rooted in sixteen principles or "Sutras." This system is not a new trendy way of teaching math; it is a system that is as old as numbers themselves. The Vedic system is deeply rooted in mathematical logic, trigonometry, calculus and algorithms. By learning Vedic math, your child will have an understanding of the very foundation of mathematics.

Math You Can Use for Life

Math Monkey Knowledge Centers use Vedic math as a fresh way of learning invaluable math concepts that translate to the quantitative skills necessary to succeed in today's global economy. Getting a firm grasp of these concepts early in life is the key to making the most of your child's potential.

Vedic Simplifies Math

Even the most complex math is based on certain simple principles. The Vedic system allows children to use these principles to simplify a math problem to a level that they can master.

Math Monkey™ teaches Vedic math – a system that takes the mystery out of math. At the learning centers, children ages 6-10 will use Vedic math to solve complex mathematic problems within seconds – without the use of paper or a calculator. Based on ancient Indian texts, this unique system of calculations can be easily applied to arithmetic, algebra, geometry and trigonometry.


Math Monkey is doing something that has never been done – making math fun for kids! Vedic math from India builds mental math skills, increases speed, precision, reason and confidence in solving mathematic equations

rec1man said...

Vedic Math

Watch YouTube videos and do tutorials on Vedic Math a mental calculating system from India. Vedic maths is truly an elegant math form inspired by the Vedas, or sacred Hindu texts.


Western mathematics is very left-brain. Vedic math utilizes the right brain as well; hence making math more assessible to a larger audience. As a math teacher, I believe Vedic math can support more students in having a positive experience with math, including learning disabled children. The beauty of Vedic mathematics is based on interrelations and patterning. It allows for creativity and multiple pathways to the answer - often done on one line or mentally


igit Sums and Casting Out the Nines
Here is a YouTube video that I made to give you a flavor for Vedic Math. NOTE: YouTube is blocked on most school servers.

These videos are also uploaded at, which isn't blocked at schools. The videos are all tagged with my name, "rebecca newburn."
Vedic Math Digit Sums Check

Visit for more Vedic math infor or visit for a collection of math resources. This video introducing how to check addition in the Vedic math system. It's a very different method for checking a math problem, but it's much faster. To learn more about vedic math, check out my lens

[4.61] [4.61] [4.61] [4.61] [4.61]

Runtime: 6:08

powered by YouTube
16 Sutras + 14 subsutras = 1 Amazingly Fast Calculating System!
The 16 sutras, or aphorisms, and 14 subsutras can used in a variety of problems to flexibly and efficiently solve problems.

* Sutras
* By one more than the one before
* All from 9 and the last from 10
* Vertically and crosswise
* Transpose and apply
* If the Samuccaya is the same it is zero
* If one is in ratio the other is zero
* By addition and by subtraction
* By the completion or non-completion
* Differential calculus
* By the deficiency
* Specific and general
* The remainders by the last digit
* The ultimate and twice the penultimate
* By one less than the one before
* The product of the sum
* All the multipliers
* Subsutras
* Proportionately
* The remainder remains constant
* The first by the first and the last by the last
* For 7 the multiplicand is 143
* By osculation
* Lessen by the deficiency
* Whatever the deficiency lessen by that amount and set up the square of the deficiency
* Last totalling 10
* Only the last terms
* The sum of the products
* By alternative elimination and retention
* By mere observation
* The product of the sum is the sum of the products
* On the flag
* -excerpt from Sri Bharati Krsna Tirthaji's "Vedic Mathematics"

Vedic Math Videos
There is an additional video on multiplying Vedic style. It's listed in the module below this one, the "Vedic Math Sites" links.
NOTE: YouTube, the site that hosts these videos, is often blocked at schools.

Vedic Math Digit Sums & Casting Out the Nines

[4.55] [4.55] [4.55] [4.55] [4.55]

Runtime: 5:59

Vedic Math: 9 Point Circle

[4.85] [4.85] [4.85] [4.85] [4.85]

Runtime: 7:28

Vedic Math 9 Point Circle: Why is 9 ~ 0?

[4.04] [4.04] [4.04] [4.04] [4.04]

Runtime: 4:06

Simply Outrageous Math Intro

[4.00] [4.00] [4.00] [4.00] [4.00]

Runtime: 8:23

Easy Mental Multiplication Trick

[4.61] [4.61] [4.61] [4.61] [4.61]

Runtime: 2:26

rec1man said...

Some cogent counter-arguments please
So far I have gotten sarcasm from 1 blogger other than that, I have no serious counter-arguments

My main argument is that instead of the published unimodal 82 IQ curve
India has a trimodal iQ curve of 86 at present and eventually improving to 94 due to Flynn


While many non-Indian sites accept that upper castes and brahmins are of higher iQ than whites ( after Flynn ), they are unaware that these form 20% of the Indian population and so often put out nonsense that India is running out of high iQ people


The third fallacy is due to racism,
except for steve sailer, almost nobody realises that the higher IQ segment is in dravidian speaking south India not among the so called Aryans of north India

( and there is a simple non racist explanation - large scale muslim massacres in north india )


rec1man said...

The trimodality of the Indian IQ curve

In the Central govt jobs
the Dalits and tribals are given reservations according to their population % = 22%
The Backward castes ( including muslim dalits and muslim backwards and xtian dalits ) are given weightage at roughly half their population weightage = 27%
The remaining 51% is open to all but mostly taken by upper castes and brahmins

In Tamil Nadu, the IQ curve is quadri-modal
Dalits = 19%
Most Backward castes = 20%
Backward Castes ( all upper castes except brahmins ) = 30%
and 30% left open and largely taken by brahmins

In the rest of India too, the IQ curve is probably quadri-modal
but the relations between the upper castes and brahmins are still good and the upper castes have not demanded a brahmin free quota

rec1man said...

The brahmin who calculated the height of everest

he man who 'discovered' Everest

By Soutik Biswas
BBC News Online

One day in 1852 in British-ruled India, a young man burst into an office in the northern Dehra Dun hill town and announced to his boss: "Sir, I have discovered the highest mountain in the world!"

Radhanath Sickdhar was an intrepid mathematician from Calcutta
After four long and arduous years of unscrambling mathematical data, Radhanath Sickdhar had managed to find out the height of Peak XV, an icy peak in the Himalayas.

The mountain - later christened Mount Everest after Sir George Everest, the surveyor general of India - stood at 29,002 feet (8,840 metres).

Sickdhar's feat, unknown to many Indians, is now part of the Great Arc Exhibition in London's vibrant Brick Lane.

The Indian Government-sponsored exhibition celebrates 200 years of the mapping of the Indian subcontinent.

The exercise, which was called "one of the most stupendous works in the whole history of science" was begun by William Lambton, a British army officer, in Madras in 1802.

The survey involved several thousand Indians and was named the Great Trigonometrical Survey (GTS) in 1819.

Mount Everest, the world's highest mountain, is 29,035 ft high today
It covered more than 1,600 miles and countless people died during the work. Tigers and malaria were the main causes of death.

Sickdhar, who was 39 when he made his discovery, was one of the survey's largely unsung heroes.

The man from Calcutta was called a "computer" since he worked on computation of data collected by survey parties.

He was promoted to the position of "chief computer" because of his good work.

'Rare genius'

"Mathematical skills were essential for Sickdhar's work and he was acknowledged by George Everest as a mathematician of rare genius," British historian John Keay, author of two books on the subject, told BBC News Online.

"His greatest contribution to the computation was in working out and applying the allowance to be made for a phenomenon called refraction - the bending of straight lines by the density of the Earth's atmosphere," said Mr Keay.

"Like George Everest himself, [Sickdhar] may have never seen [Mount Everest]."

It was first identified as a possible contender for the world's highest peak in 1847 when surveyors glimpsed it from near Darjeeling.

Sir George Everest found Sickdhar a rare mathematical genius
Several observations were recorded over the next three years by different survey parties.

But the announcement that it was the highest - thanks to Sickdhar's efforts - was delayed until 1856 as calculations had to be checked repeatedly.

Sickdhar, the son of a Bengali Brahmin, was born in October 1813 in Jorasanko, Calcutta's old city.

He studied mathematics at the city's renowned Hindoo College and had a basic knowledge of English.

rec1man said...

Vedic math is part of Atharva veda
the text of the magician priests
and dates back to over 1500 BC

This was developed as an oral tradition and vedic math is mental math

Sri Sri Ravishanker of the Art of Living offers courses in Vedic math


Syllabus for housewives

# Housewives

* Beejank(Digital Roots) And Vedic Check
* Vinculum Numbers
* Addition And Subtraction
* Multiplication Tables
* Nikhilam Multiplication
* Urdhva Tiryak Multiplication
* Quick Multiplication
* Division By Nikhilam Method
* Division By Paravartya Method
* Straight Division
* Squaring Of Numbers
* Square Roots
* Cubing Of Numbers
* Cube Root Of Perfect Cubes


Syllabus for businessmen

# Businessmen

* Quick Addition
* Quick Subtraction
* Multiplying 2 Digit Numbers By 2 Digit Numbers
* Multiplying 3 Digit Numbers By 3 Digit Numbers
* Multiplication Of Numbers Closer To The Base
* General Multiplication Of Any Number Of Digits
* General Division
* Quick Division By Using The Concept Of Flag Digit
* Nikhilam Division
* Paravartya Division Method
* Squares
* Square Roots
* Cubing of Number
* Cube Roots Of Perfect Cubes

Syllabus for students

# Level-1

* Simple Practice Of Numbers
o Place value
o Patterns in numbers
o Addition and subtraction using shuddha concept
o Multiplication practice
o Division practice
* Multiplication By Nikhalam
o Multiplication using concept
o Multiplication of single digit numbers
o Multiplication using a base of 100
o Multiplication using the base of 1000
o Multiplication above the base
* Simple Straight Division
o Simple division
o Division with remainders
o Division by 9
o Nikhilam division
o Division with base 100 and 1000
o Nikhilam division with any base
* Digital Roots
o Digital root concept
o Digital root for timetables
o Casting our 9's
o The 9* table
* Multiplication By Vertically And Crosswise
o Two digit by two digit multiplication
o Multiplying larger numbers
* Subtraction By Nikhilam
o Concept of complements
o Subtraction using complements
o Starting with complements in the middle of the sum
o Finishing with complements in the middle of the sum
o General case of subtraction
* Vulgar Fractions
o Definition of fraction.
o Adding fractions
o Fractions to infinity
* Decimal Fractions
o About decimals
o Addition of decimals
o Subtraction of decimals
o Multiplication of decimals
o Multiplying and dividing multiles of 10
o Division of decimals
o Working with money
* The Meaning Of Number
o The circle of nine points
o The number one
o Product,factors
o Divisibility
o Prime numbers
o The sieve of erathosthanes
o Odd and even numbers
* Vinculums
o Vinculum number concept
o Adding and subtracting 10 and other numbers ending with zero
o Adding and subtracting vinculum numbers
* Algebra
o Finding the value of expressions
o Equations
o Solving equations
o Simplifying

* Multiplying By "All From 9 And Last From 10"
o Complements
o Using complements in calculation
o Multiplication using nikhilam sutra
o Multiplying numbers above the base
o Multiplying numbers below the base
o Multiplying numbers above and below the base
* Multilication By Vertically And Crosswise
o The general case
o Multiplying large numbers
o Multiplication by 11,12,13,14...
o Multiplying numbers with final noughts
* Division
o Simple division
o Division by nikhilam sutra" all from 9 and last from 10"
o Division by transpose and adjust
* Subtraction By Nikhilam
o Subtraction using complements
o General case of subtraction
o Turbo subtraction
* Prime And Composite Numbers
o Highest common factor
o Prime numbers
o Composite numbers
o Lowest common multiple
o Summary
* Fractions
o Equivalent fractions
o Improper fractions and mixed fractions
o Multiplying fractions
o Multiplication of mixed fractions
o Division of fractions
o Division of mixed numbers
* Algebra
o Simplifying simple equations
o Solving equations by transpose and adjust
o Multiplying polynomials
o Bracket simplification
o Simplifying with indices
* Geometry-1
o Dodecahedron, notes on drawing, const internal angle for same
o To draw a straight line any numer of times as a given straight line
o To draw a perpendicular near the end of a st. Line
o To bisect a st line perpendicularly
o To drop a perpendicular from a point to a given straight line
o To bisect a given angle
o To copy a given angle
o To divide a given line into any number of equal parts
o To const a triangle given the length of 3 sides
o Touching circles
* Digital Roots
o Casting our 9's
o Using digital roots to check answers
* Divisibility
o divisibility by 2 ,5 ,10,4,7,9,3 etc
o Divisibilty rules
o Divisibilty rules for composite numbers
* Adddition And Subtraction Of Fractions
o Adding with same denominator
o Adding when one denominator is a factor of other
o Adding with coprime denominators
o Vertically and crosswise for non-coprime denominators
o Subtraction with the same denominators
o Subtaction when one denominator is a factor of other
o Subtraction with coprime denominators
o Vertically and crosswise subtraction for non-coprime denominators
* Decimal Fractions
o Place value
o Addition and subtraction of decimals
o Converting decimal fractions into vulgar fractions
o Converting vulgar fractions into decimal fractions
* Perimeters And Areas
o Perimeters
o Areas
o Areas of rectangles
o Compound areas
o Areas of triangles
* Straight Division
o Straight division
o Altered remainders
o Straight division with altered remainders
* Work Base Multiplication
o Multilication using a work base
* Ratio And Proportion
o Ratio,proportion
o Solving ratio equations
o Problems in direct proportion
o Problems in indirect proportion
* Geometry-2
o The recangle propositions
o Characteristics of rectangle
o Triangles in semi circles
o To construct a square on a given base
o To draw a rectangle within a circle
o To draw a rectangle with a given base
o To draw a rectangle with a given base and height
o The golden rectangle
o Through a given point to draw a line parallel to a given line
o To draw a square twice as large as a given a square
* Order Of Operations
o Multiple products
o Mixed multiplying and dividing
o Mixed additions a nd subtractions
o Mixed operations
* Multiplication And Division Of Decimals
o Multiplication a nd division by powers of ten
o Factors a nd multiples of powers of ten
o Multiplication of decimals by vertically and crosswise
o Straight decimal division
o Moving the decimal point
* Percentages
o Definition of percentage
o Finding a percentage of a given quantity
o Expressing one quantity as a percentage of other
o Percentage increase or decrease
* Averages
o Finding the averages
o Using a module to find averages
* Graphs
o Distance-time graph
o Frequency tables
o Bar charts
* Geometry-3
o Angles, units for angles
o To draw an angle of 60*
o Measuring angles, types of angles
o Angles about a point, angles on a st line,naming angles
* Indices
o Indices,laws of indices
o Areas and volunes
* The Octahedron
o Octahedron
o Internal model for octahedron
o Truncating the octahedron
* Factors And Multiples
o Definition
o Divisibilty and its rules
o Test for 11
o Prime factors
o Highest common factor
o Finding h.c.f by prime factors and by elimination and retention
o Finding l.c.m by vertically and crosswise
* Further Division
o Two-digit divisors with whole number remainders,
o Altered remainders
o Straight division with altered remainders
* Triangles
o Construction of triangles
* Squares
o Squares of numbers ending in 5
o Squares of numbers closer to the base by yavadunam method
o Squares of any 2 digit numbers
o Finding squares by proportionately method
o Duplex of a number
o Finding squares by duplex method
o Squares of bigger numbers
* Square Roots
o Finding square root of any number
* Cubes
o Finding cubes of numbers closer to the base by yavadunam method
o Finding cubes by proportionately method
* Cube Roots
o Finding cube roots of perfect cubes

# Level-2

* Triplets
o Triple theorem
o Tribhujank
o Historical background of tribhujank
o Notation for triples
o Types of triples
o Perfect triples
* Triple Arithmetic
o Addition operation on tribhujank(triples)
o Double angles
o Triple subtraction
o Quadrant angles in trigonometry
o Triple geometry
o Angles of 30*,60*,45* etc
o Half angles
o Simplifying calculations
* Triple Trigonometry
o Introduction
o Inverse functions
o The general triple
o Solutions of trigonometric equations
o Further trigonometric equations-a
o Further trigonometric equations-b
o Further trigonometric equations-c
* Transformations In A Plane
o Transposition of origin
o Rotations
o Spirals
o Integration of cosx
o Rotation of lines and curves
o Reflections
* Coordinate Geometry
o Length of perpendicular
o Foot of perpendicular
o Angle betwwen 2 lines
o Equation of a line
o Further Examples
* Code Numbers
o Grouping triples
o Code numbers
o Geometrical significance of code numbers
o Code number pairs
o Code numbers as triples
o Algebraic formulation
o Converting code number to triples
o Addition and subtraction of code numbers
o Code numbers of code numbers
o Code numbers of complimentary triples
o Code numbers of supplementary triples
o Code numbers for 0*,90*,180*,270*
o Relation between code numbers and angles
o Further examples
* Solution Of Triangles
o Angle-deficiency formula
o Sine formula
o The code-number formula
* Application Of Triples
o Solution of equation
o Complex numbers
o Conics
o Difference and sum of squares
o Incircles and circumcircles
o The Golden Triple
* Angle In Perfect Triples
o Revision
o Triples and their angles
o Finding the angle in a triple
o Further application and code numbers
o Finding a triple in a given angle
o Refinement
* Sine,Cosine,Tangant And Inverses
o Sine,cosine and tangent
o Inverse, cosine and inverse sine
o Inverse tangent
* Hyperbolic Functions
o Addition and subtraction
o Double angles
o Equation
* Applied Mathematics Applications
o Simple harmonic motions
o Projectiles
o Forces in equilibrium
o Work done by a force and moment of a force
* Triple Method
o Range of application
o Deriving the conventional formulae
* Quadruples
o Introduction
o Quadruple generation
o Code number for a perfect triple
o Co-ordinate axes
o Quadruple subtraction
* Application Of Quadruples
o Coordinate geometry
o Work and moment
o Rotation about coordinate axis
o 3-Dimension rotation of curves
o Conicoids
o Rotation

# Level-3

o Recurring Decimals
+ Denominators ending 9
+ Proportionately
+ Longer numerators
+ Denominators ending in 8,7,6
+ Denominators ending in 1
+ Denominators ending in 2,3,4
o Solutions Of Equations
+ Simple equations
+ More than one x terms
+ General simultaneous equations
+ Special simultaneous equations
+ Quadratic equations
+ Mergers of equations
o Evaluation Of Determinants
+ Third order determinants
+ Fourth order determinants
+ Reducing the order of the determinanat by one
+ Reduction of a determinant by two degrees
+ Evaluating a determinant by row and column operations
+ Extraction of elements
o Solution Of Simultaneous Linear Eqn
+ By vertically and crosswise
+ Elimination of one variable
+ Procedure for eliminating two variables at a time
o Inversion Of Matrices
+ Steps for determining the elements f a inverse checks
o Curve-Fitting
+ Mathematical or exact curve -fitting
+ Regression
+ Least square linear regression of y on x
+ Least squares quadratic regression of y on x
o Evaluation Of Logarithms And Exponentials
+ Explanation
o Change Of Roots Of Equations
+ Roots opposite in sign
+ Reciprocal roots
+ Multiple or sub-multiple roots
+ Roots increased or reduced by some value
o Cosine,Sine And Inverse Tangent
+ Cosine function
+ Sine function
+ Inverse tangent function
o Inverse Sine, Cosine And Tangent
+ Inverse sine function
+ Inverse cosine function
+ Inverse tangent function
+ Hyperbolic functions
+ Polynomial equations
o Transcendental Equations
o Solution Of Cubic And Higher Order Equations
o Functions Of Polynomials
o Functions Of Bipolynomials
o Solution Of Linear And Non-Linear Differential,Integral And Integro-Diiferential Eqn
o Solution Of Linear And Non -Linear Partial Differential Equations

rec1man said...

Caste is Brave New World not Jim Crow

If you read Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, where according to iQ , people are classified from Alpha+ to Epsilon-

rec1man said...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Interested in contributing to Wikipedia? •
Jump to: navigation, search
Dark blue: the Indian subcontinent, Light Blue: Other countries culturally linked to India, notably Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia and Malaysia, Purple: Regions not included in Indosphere, but with significant current or historical Indian cultural influence, notably Afghanistan, Tibet, Yunnan and Baluchistan region.
Dark blue: the Indian subcontinent, Light Blue: Other countries culturally linked to India, notably Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia and Malaysia, Purple: Regions not included in Indosphere, but with significant current or historical Indian cultural influence, notably Afghanistan, Tibet, Yunnan and Baluchistan region.

Indosphere, as defined by linguist James Matisoff, refers to areas of Indian linguistic and cultural influence in Southeast Asia.[1] It is commonly used in areal linguistics to contrast with Sinosphere, which refers to the cultures and languages influenced by proximity to China.

* 1 Definition and context
* 2 See also
* 3 References
* 4 Further reading
* 5 External links

[edit] Definition and context

Indosphere languages covers most of India and Pakistan, as well as Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and much of Mainland Southeast Asia (MSEA) (defined as the region encompassing Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and Thailand, and parts of Burma, Peninsular Malaysia and Yunnan). Related scripts are also found in South East Asian islands ranging from Sumatra, Java, Bali, south Sulawesi and parts of the Philippines.[2] Cultures and languages in MESA have long been in contact with adjoining cultures of India and China and thus influenced by them. Depending upon the dominant political, religious and cultural influence, linguists and anthropologists divide MSEA into the two distinct classes, Indosphere and Sinosphere.[3] Thus Indosphere is defined by N. J. Enfield as "a socio-political sphere of MSEA, subsuming those countries, cultures, and languages that have historically come under influence of the politics, culture, religion, and languages of India (notably, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, Burma)."[3] According to Enfield, long term lexical diffusion between languages belonging to five major language families, in addition to genealogical inheritance, has resulted in extensive parallels in linguistic structures of the languages of the region. [3]

rec1man said...

Comparing Hi-End IQ
India vs China

1.For India , I am simply going to use the upper caste + brahmin segment = 20% of 1.1 bil = 220 mil,
Avg IQ = 110 ( after Flynn ) and SD = 15
I am ignoring the small right hand tail contribution of Dalits and Backward castes

2. For China, the population is 1.3bil, and Avg = 105 ( after Flynn and compensating for Interior chinese and the non-han minorities )

3. Per La griffe du lion, in his article on smart fractions IQ, which measures the right hand tail,
the SD for East Asians is less than 6. So I am going to run scenarios for Chinese SD = 15, 10 and 7.5

Above 120 IQ

India , 0.67 ( 15 SD ) =
0.25 * 220mil = 55 mil

China, 1 ( 15 SD ) = 0.16 * 1300 mil = 208 mil

China 1.5 ( 10 SD ) = 0.07 * 1300 = 91 mil

China 2 ( 7.5 SD ) = 0.023 * 1300
= 30 mil


Above 130 IQ

India, 1.33 ( 15 SD ) = 0.09 * 220 mil = 20 mil
( 20 mil upper castes above Mensa range, has implications for white collar jobs migration for the west )

China , 1.67 ( 15 SD ) = 0.05 * 1300 mil = 65 mil

China , 2.5 ( 10 SD ) = 0.006 * 1300 = 7.8 mil

China, 3.33 ( 7.5 SD ) = 0.0005 * 1300 = 0.65 mil


Above 140 IQ

India, 2, ( SD = 15 ) = 0.023 * 220 mil = 5.060 mil

China, 2.33, ( SD = 15 ) = 0.01 * 1300 mil = 13 mil

China, 3.5 ( SD = 10 ) = 0.01 * 0.023 * 1300 mil = 0.300 mil

China, 4.67 ( SD = 7.5 ) = 0.01 * 0.001 * 1300 mil = 0.013 mil

Sriram said...

This news report is interesting.. Starting in 1992, a village of weavers in Bihar (one of the most backward states in India) has sent an average of 7 students per year to the IITs (the total is 100). The fact this has happened in this particular village may be interesting (i.e. it probably wouldnt have worked in any random village). The students are all male it appears.

This is another remarkable story of an impoverished individual but I think its just a case of an outlier (not something systematic as the earlier case)

rec1man said...

1500 years of decay
The golden age for hindus ended 500 AD, about the time Rome fell,

followed by 100 years of invasions and massacres by huns, followed by 1000 years of invasions and massacres and looting by the muslims followed by 200 years of looting and famines under the british , followed by 50 years of fabian socialism


rec1man said...

Lilavati (also Leelavati) was Indian mathematician Bhaskara's treatise on mathematics in the twelfth century.

The book contains thirteen chapters, mainly definitions, arithmetical terms, interest computation, arithmetical and geometrical progressions, plane geometry, solid geometry, the shadow of the gnomon, the kuttaka - a method to solve indeterminate equations, and combinations.

Lilavati includes a number of methods of computing numbers such as multiplications, squares, and progressions, with examples using kings and elephants, objects which a common man could understand.



This book shows how to predict eclipses, solve Kepler's Equation, solve spherical triangles, predict planetary positions etc

Partial Phase
Total Phase
Comparison with Bessel’s Method


Another Example


The Mean Anomaly
Definition of the Reference Point and the Geocentric Longitude
finding the Geocentric Correction
Table of Planetary Data

nclination of Planetary Orbits 118



rec1man said...

A closer look at high end Indian iQ
( after Flynn )

Southern brahmin = 0.01 * 1100 mil = 11 mil
Avg = 125, SD = 15

Above 120IQ = 0.63 * 11 = 6.930 mil
Above 130IQ = 0.37 * 11 = 4.070 mil
Above 140IQ = 0.16 * 11 = 1.760 mil

Northern brahmin = 0.04 * 1100 mil = 44 mil
Avg = 120, SD = 15

Above 120IQ = 0.50 * 44 = 22 mil
Above 130IQ = 0.25 * 44 = 11 mil
Above 140IQ = 0.09 * 44 = 3.960 mil


Southern Merchant = 0.03 * 1100 mil = 33 mil
Avg = 115, SD = 15

Above 120IQ = 0.37 * 33 = 12.210 mil
Above 130IQ = 0.16 * 33 = 5.280 mil
Above 140IQ = 0.05 * 33 = 1.650 mil


Northern Merchant = 0.12 * 1100 mil = 132 mil
Avg = 110, SD = 15

Above 120IQ = 0.25 * 132 = 33 mil
Above 130IQ = 0.09 * 132 = 11.880 mil
Above 140IQ = 0.023 * 132 = 3.036 mil

By ignoring the small right hand tail of the peasants, the muslims and the dalits and the tribals

Over 120IQ = 6.930 + 22 + 12.210 + 33 = 74.140 mil

Over 130IQ = 4.070 + 11 + 5.280 + 11.880 = 32.230 mil

Over 140IQ = 1.760 + 3.960 + 1.650 + 3.036 = 10.406 mil

rec1man said...

Who is actually Running out of high end IQ ?
Often it has been suggested that thanks to the supposed 81 avg IQ and
unimodal curve, the Indian talent pool is running dry as compared to east asian countries

Now let us look at supply of managerial talent ( over 125 IQ )


Surplus managerial talent in India

Managerial talent

Fortune 500 companies are leveraging India as a source of high-quality managerial talent. These managers are trained and subsequently assigned to global positions:
» Unilever considers India a vast reservoir of managerial talent for global posting.
» GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) PLC, the pharmaceutical giant, regularly promotes managers from India to other geographies of GSK. Personnel from Citigroup India are routinely assigned to global positions at Citigroup.
» In Prudential, Indian managerial talent is well regarded and personnel from India have moved on to regional roles in Asia.
» Johnson & Johnson's (J & J) Indian R&D and testing centers provide services to J&J worldwide. Jansen Cilag (the pharma division of J&J) has a stability center in India. Indian managers are constantly promoted to overseas operations. An Indian team is also managing the supply-chain planning for the Asia Pacific region.


Meanwhile in the higher IQ east Asia, Avg 105, there is a serious shortage of managerial talent

In their scramble for growth, companies across booming Asia are finding themselves short on a critical resource: professional managemen


Learning Asia-specific skills is particularly urgent in Taiwan. The island actually has an MBA glut--but the grads often lack the managerial skills demanded by Taiwan's big-growth industries.


Even Singapore, perhaps the most centrally planned of Asia's more advanced economies, finds that ``the managerial shortage is acute and across-the-board,''

Anonymous said...

A Case Of Reverse Imperialism
Benjamin Willson 06.06.08, 7:00 PM ET

Beware India's manifest destiny.

Though still labeled an emerging market, one could argue that the Indian economy has already emerged. According to Forbes' list of international billionaires, four of the top 10 are Indian. And with an annualized five-year total return of 42.2%, Forbes ranked India second after Brazil in its assessment of the growth of the world's largest public companies. The U.K., with a growth percentage of 17.1%, and the U.S., with 11.1%, occupy two of the last three spots on that list. The balance of power is starting to shift.

As the Indian economy continues to spread its wings, its companies are turning to new international markets.

Could this be the beginning of a reverse imperialism?

In 2000, Tata Tea--a member of India's Tata Group conglomerate of 27 publicly listed companies--bought Tetley, the U.K.'s largest tea company. Tata Tea now represents the second largest tea manufacturer in the world by volume, surpassed only by London- and Rotterdam-based Unilever.

What is driving India's expansion? "Unlike China where companies are state- and government-led, in India, it is people's own money,

In March, another subsidiary of the Tata Group, Tata Motors (nyse: TTM - news - people ), acquired Jaguar and Land Rover from Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ) for $2.3 billion. It's another example of originally-British brands being scooped up by an old colonial friend

The shared colonial past, actually, is an advantage. The British Empire, Khanna believes, created a legacy whose repercussions are felt in India and in Africa's eastern and southern regions. "Imperialism is laying the seeds of global chess, with Indian companies naturally capitalizing on their shared history," he says.

Perhaps other nations should prepare for a new breed of imperialism. This time, we will be pouring the tea

Anonymous said...

Unitarian Sermon


Gandhi, Hinduism and the Power of Faith
Rev. David Bryce
Hastings – October 8, 2006


There is a faith that transcends time and place, transcends culture and rises up in the religions of the world. We celebrate that faith today.


Lord Krishna said: You grieve for those who are not worthy of grief, and yet speak words of wisdom. The wise grieves neither for the living nor for the dead. (2.11)

One of the religious movements in India that arose in the 1800’s was the Brahmo Samaj. This was a religious movement partly inspired by the changes then taking place in Christianity. Much of Christian scholarship was then focused on historical critical analysis of the bible and on ideas such as separating the religion about Jesus from the religion of Jesus. Many of these scholars were inviting Christians to read the Bible with a somewhat skeptical eye and to winnow out what was genuine from what was later interpolation or imposition.

Brahmo Samaj was founded in 1828 by Rammohun Roy, a great Indian thinker, and his approach to religion was to say that Hinduism’s great religious texts were the Upanishads. He read these as Unitarians read the Bible. I specifically said Unitarians because for a number of years before 1828, Roy attended Unitarian services in India, calling himself a Unitarian Hindu, and he maintained warm connections with Unitarianism until he died in 1833. In fact, his services were modeled on the Unitarian services he had attended.

Among the more famous Brahmos was Rabindranath Tagore.

We Unitarian Universalists are today affiliated with the Brahmo Samaj through the International Association for Religious Freedom. Brahmo Samaj is not and never was a large movement, but it has had an influence greater than it numbers.

That approach to Hinduism, read through a limited number of texts (specifically the Upanishads), and read with a particular liberal perspective--seeking spiritual meaning not the literal meaning--spread throughout much of the intellectual society of India and was the general approach that Gandhi took though he was never a Brahmo or a Unitarian. Gandhi focused on the Upanishads and added the Bhagavad-Gita, which he believed was the most valuable religious text. He read it not as a literal command to kill others, but as a call to each of us to be a warrior who battles the darkness within our own heart, the darkness within the hearts of others


Sriram said...

Besides IQ, another difference between Indians and east asians is exposure to English and perhaps the extra degree of compatibility between English and Indian languages (compared to English and Chinese). Even in the USA, I suspect Indian Americans have better mean ability on verbal tests than their east asian counterparts who may have as high or higher overall IQ.

Most Indians are bi-lingual and many are tri-lingual; and a few of my friends have picked up languages like Chinese, Russian and Japanese well into their adulthood for work reasons. So maybe theres as yet unexplained linguistic advantage accruing to the higher IQ end of higher caste Indian groups that matters. Maybe this depends on their being exposed to multiple languages during early childhood?

Anonymous said...

20 million english fluent, college educated brahmins with over 120IQ
available in India

Brahmin Snapshots

Total Population: 56 million
Poor Brahmins: 13%
Rich: 19%
Literacy levels above the age of 18: 84%
Graduates: 39%
Brahmin chief justices between 1950 to 2000: 47%
Associate justices between 1950-2000: 40%

Anonymous said...

Brahmins are cream of Indian society: survey

By Deepshikha Ghosh, Indo-Asian News Service

New Delhi, Nov 7 (IANS) Despite being a microscopic minority, Brahmins are
still perceived to be dominating many aspects of Indian society.

Surprisingly, most other groups among caste-ridden Hindu society think that
Brahmins - who occupy the dominant position in the social hierarchy -- are
more intelligent, more educated and better looking.

This is one of the findings of a survey conducted across the country by
Week-TN Sofres Mode and published in the latest issue of The Week magazine.

Brahmins still remain a small minority but one to reckon with.

Seventy-one percent non-Brahmins perceive Brahmins as more intelligent than
the rest.

Seventy percent feel they are more educated, 48 percent think they are more
confident, but only a minority of 28 percent feel they are honest.

In physical appearance too, Brahmins get the nod of 46 percent respondents.

But only 19 percent think they are hardworking and 26 percent think they can
be better in entrepreneurship.

Brahmins are also perceived to be best in traditional arts.

Among the so-called forward castes, 54 percent feel Brahmins are the best
performers in traditional music and dance and 52 percent of the backward
castes and 60 percent of the scheduled castes and tribes share the view.

In southern India, all castes feel Brahmins to be the best performers.

Anonymous said...

In India, with its poverty and lousy colleges, 39% of brahmins have a college degree or more

In the US, those with at least a college degree or more

Total = 27%
Protestants = 24%
Catholic = 26%
Jews = 59%
Muslim = 24%
Buddhist = 48%
Hindus = 74%
Orthodox = 46%
Unitarian = 51%

Anonymous said...

All Indians are compulsorily bi lingual or even tri lingual in the 10th and 12th grade exams

English + Hindi + local language dialect

At school I had english + tamil + hindi
3 different scripts

The IQ tests used are mostly ravens matrices and dont catch weakness in verbal iq

In most cases such as SAT,
IQ is measured by average of math and verbal scores

In singapore, Indians score midway between chinese and malays in math

however in english they beat both chinese and malays

weakness of east asians in verbal iQ

Estranea. What do you mean by "verbal shortcomings." Is it that NE Asians perform less well than Europeans on verbal subtests or that they simply are not given to Strocchian pleonasm?

Prodigy. The former, but there is other evidence of their verbal deficiency. Take the bar exam for example. In 1989, the Law School Admission Council commissioned a study of bar passage rates. Its report, The LSAC National Longitudinal Bar Passage Study was published in 1998, with results disaggregated by race and ethnicity. Linda F. Wightman, the project head, collected data from more than 27,000 students who entered ABA approved law schools in fall 1991. The study found that only 80.75% of Asians passed the bar on the first try compared with 91.93% of non-Hispanic whites. This corresponds to a white-Asian mean-score difference of 0.53 standard deviation or in IQ terms a verbal gap of 8 points!


Of these, 12 reported both general and verbal IQ averages for NE Asians. Three of the 12 indicated a white-NE Asian verbal IQ gap of about 8 points in agreement with the bar exam result, but these are at the high end. The average verbal gap was a bit less than 4 points or about a quarter standard deviation.

Anonymous said...

Most Indians are bi-lingual and many are tri-lingual

Most Indians are trilingual while many are quadrilingual.

Schools teach their native language, plus Hindi (or Sanskrit), English and optionally a foreign language like German, French or Japanese. Plus people (and their kids) moving for jobs learn the language of the state they move to.

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