The NYT runs another hard-hitting, informative article conveniently accumulating in one place all the cliches I've been reading for the last 30 years about how the "Model Minority Stereotype" is actually unfair to Asian Americans.
Report Takes Aim at ‘Model Minority’ Stereotype of Asian-American Students
By TAMAR LEWIN
The image of Asian-Americans as a homogeneous group of high achievers taking over the campuses of the nation’s most selective colleges came under assault in a report issued Monday.
The report, by New York University, the College Board and a commission of mostly Asian-American educators and community leaders, largely avoids the debates over both affirmative action and the heavy representation of Asian-Americans at the most selective colleges.
But it pokes holes in stereotypes about Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders, including the perception that they cluster in science, technology, engineering and math. And it points out that the term “Asian-American” is extraordinarily broad, embracing members of many ethnic groups.
“Certainly there’s a lot of Asians doing well, at the top of the curve, and that’s a point of pride, but there are just as many struggling at the bottom of the curve, and we wanted to draw attention to that,” said Robert T. Teranishi, the N.Y.U. education professor who wrote the report, “Facts, Not Fiction: Setting the Record Straight.”
“Our goal,” Professor Teranishi added, “is to have people understand that the population is very diverse.” ...
“The notion of lumping all people into a single category and assuming they have no needs is wrong,” said Alma R. Clayton-Pederson, vice president of the Association of American Colleges and Universities, who was a member of the commission the College Board financed to produce the report.
“Our backgrounds are very different,” added Dr. Clayton-Pederson, who is black, “but it’s almost like the reverse of what happened to African-Americans.” ...
The report quotes the opening to W. E. B. Du Bois’s 1903 classic “The Souls of Black Folk” — “How does it feel to be a problem?” — and says that for Asian-Americans, seen as the “good minority that seeks advancement through quiet diligence in study and work and by not making waves,” the question is, “How does it feel to be a solution?”
Pretty damn good, I would hope.
But if you want to be a Professional Asian who gets paid by foundations and the like for being an Asian Spokesperson, then, it's not so hot. Thus, this report. And, Asians not needing affirmative action makes Professional Blacks feel worried and angry. So the only feasible solution is for Asians to get in on the Race Gravytrain, too. It's a Win-Win solution!
My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer
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85 comments:
Wasn't the issue of affirmative action avoided in this report precisely because Asian-Americans generally don't support affirmative action?
And it points out that the term “Asian-American” is extraordinarily broad, embracing members of many ethnic groups.
WHAAAAAA--??? I thought "Asia" was a tiny village with a homogeneous genetic pool!
I sometimes think monstrous banality like this is all part of a great scheme. They want terms like “Asian” to become synonymous in the popular mind with, say, “Korean,” Then some faux-sophisticated dreck like this can come along and say “actually, Asian doesn’t just mean Korean” and they’ve really blown some people’s minds. Then having learned that “Asian” is a concept far more complicated than formerly thought, we are meant to conclude that no generalizations can be made about the concept at all and at the same time that we must accept whatever such experts tell us about it, like that they “have needs” too.
In my limited experience, a majority of Asians do support AA, for various reasons. One reason is that they see it as an issue that doesn't affect them, but does help to rectify the problem of racist whites discriminating against blacks. This kind of person tends to favor the nonwhite minority in every conceivable situation unless it also negatively affects their own ethnic group, but they tend to see affirmative action as an issue that doesn't affect them. I live in rural New England, however, where Asians are few and far between, so there is really no chance of Asians being quota'd out of admission to a university or corporation. What I said above might not apply well to places like California.
Other Asians support AA because even though it is primarily aimed at blacks and Hispanics, they see benefits in it for them too, and since AA is a cover term for a very broad series of programs, I can't say for sure they're not right about that. I find that single white women often support AA for the same reason. Getting into the mentality of being part of an alliance all the minorities against a weak, phony majority is a great way to feel the comfort of political strength. Even whites do it: I've met Greeks and Portuguese who seem to feel that they're not white, and support AA because it reduces the power of the white power structure, even though they are aware that AA will do nothing at all to help them.
A third reason for Asians supporting AA is that they just don't have well-formed opinions, so they go with whatever the Democratic Party leadership tells them to, and since even the Republicans support AA now, it's pretty easy to see how the common people will. Really, how could you not support AA unless you have some unorthodox politically incorrect reason for doing so?
Here in Canada where I live, students of Asian origin on the whole do better academically than Whites or Blacks. For example, Chinese have the second lowest high school dropout rate (the lowest is a White group, Romanians; I wonder how many of the students classified as Romanians are actually Jewish). The Korean dropout rate is also below the average. On the other hand, the Vietnamese rate is above average. So maybe it's inappropriate to lump Asians in a single category.
Emilia Liz
I wonder when some panel of Ivy League geniuses will make the observation "that the term “White” is extraordinarily broad, embracing members of many ethnic groups"? Never. Then whites would no longer be seen as a monolithic and oppressive force from which helpless victim groups could extort the jizya of racial guilt.
". . . it pokes holes in stereotypes about Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders, including the perception that they cluster in science, technology, engineering and math."
Huh? I'd always just assumed that all those raven-haired human supercomputers busting the curve in my calculus class were Tongans, Somoans, and Micronesians.
Well, it's good to have that misconception cleared up.
I don't care how smart they are or how hard they study. Asians are taking the social capital that was built up by non-Asians. I doubt when the taxpayers of California were establishing 3 new UC's in the fifties and sixties, they were thinking "gee, I am glad we're spending all this money so that people in Taiwan, Korea , and Red China can educate their kids here."
From my experience, I know that Asian-Americans totally do support affirmative action. I was a student at the University of Washington during the Initiative 200 debate, and Asians, although overrepresented at the UW, came out vociferously for I-200, arguing that the model minority was a stereotype and that they were getting short shrift.
Here's an example I dug up from the web. Doug Chin, a Professional Seattle Asian, concedes the point that, as a group, Asians are overrepresented at state colleges compared with their percentage in the state population, but then points to struggling Asians (Cambodians and Laotians) as reasons for AA .... hence the argument that Asians are a diverse group.
Chin concludes by saying that Asians are underrepresented at the grad school level, but I know for a fact that Asians (at least at the UW; and okay, I'm talking about foreign students from mainland China, but they are still ASIANS) dominate the engineering department. I don't know about the computer science department, but I imagine it is the same.
Indians especially can deal a death blow to the idea that people "hate" blacks because of their "skin color." Indian skin color is almost as dark as that of blacks, and yet you don't see For Sale signs going up left and right when an Indian family moves into the neighborhood.
When a black family moves in you see white kids going to their house to buy drugs. When an Indian family moves in you see white kids going to their house to get help with their homework.
With regards to affirmative action: you wonder if one day whites will be demanding it in states where Asians have taken over the higher education system. In states like California, where there are lots of Hispanics, it might not matter. In states where there are lots of Asians but few blacks and Hispanics (Washington?) it might make a difference.
"Certainly there’s [are?] a lot of Asians doing well, at the top of the curve, and that’s a point of pride, but there are just as many struggling at the bottom of the curve, and we wanted to draw attention to that,” said Robert T. Teranishi, the N.Y.U. education professor who wrote the report.
Uh, if tautologically true, doesn't that mean the Asian mean must be identical to the national mean? What a blatant lie. How fitting though, that NYU's education director would use such poor grammar.
Also, are Pacific Islanders in the US generally thought to enjoy the same levels of success as Asians in the US do? They don't. Sounds like the strategy is to bring all non-whites into the affirmative action tent.
I've been trying to say for years that Asian Americans are just as stratified as any other group, and lumping them together as overachievers is ridiculous.
It's true that on one end of the scale, you have Indians and Japanese who are overwhelmingly educated and successful. But on the other end, you have Hmong and Vietnamese with large poverty rates and very little education on average (they came as refugees, so its not surprising). But most people will look at a Vietnamese person and say, "Oh, he's Asian, he must be successful and smart" despite all this.
Steve
Do you 1) support increasing legal Asian immgration2)decreasing Asian legal immigration or 3)keep it at current levels?
Do you prefer a California State University system that was 90 percent white or the current one where the Asian prescence is increasing very rapidly.
My own view:Europan Americans did pretty good without them. European Americans created the space program and put a White Man on the moon. How did we ever manage this without the Asian legal immigrant? Anybody know the answer to this question?
Oh, and by the way, "Indian skin color", as mentioned in an earlier post, varies quite a bit. The computer programmers from Bangalore are almost as dark as blacks, while the movie stars of Bollywood are almost as light as Europeans.
Doug Chin, a Professional Seattle Asian, concedes the point that, as a group, Asians are overrepresented at state colleges compared with their percentage in the state population, but then points to struggling Asians (Cambodians and Laotians) as reasons for AA....hence the argument that Asians are a diverse group.
So Asians are going to get AA because the stats are going to only include the underrepresented groups - Pacific Islanders, Hmong, and so forth?
What about AA for whites? Can we exclude Jews in calculations of overrepresentation and only use, say, Appalachian whites? Or Albanians?
Don't wanna take the time to look up a link, but I remember seeing a few years back that U of Wisconsin has an affirmative action program for SE Asians (Cambodians, Laotions, Vietnamese, Thai, Philipinos, Malays, Indonesians) but explicitly not East Asians (Han Chinese, Japanese, Koreans).
I myself have noticed in the bay area that most Asians that look and act really "Gangsta" (and listen to R&B/rap, and the girls date hip-hop looking black and hispanic dudes) look SE Asian, not NE Asian.
It sometimes seems to me that maybe the biggest ethnic divide in the modern world is between people whose ancestors grew up in the temperate environment (where the ice age selected for intelligence and self-restraint) on the one hand, and people whose ancestors lived in the tropics (who are closer to the impulsitivity of our animal ancestors). The one group that I can think of that violates such a simple rule are Indians, who certainly live in a tropical environment, but seem to produce a fair share of nerds ...
European Americans created the space program and put a White Man on the moon.
Invented the cotton gin, the telegraph, the telegraph, the television, the grammaphone, the compact disc, the transistor, the airplane, the rifle, the machine gun, the light bulb...
European countries without lots of Asians seem to be doing perfectly fine, economically, even with their socialist policies that depress growth - Sweden, Finland, France, Italy, Switzerlad, Austria, Germany. Germany has one of the highest trade surpluses in the world - as large, almost, as China's.
Oh, and by the way, "Indian skin color", as mentioned in an earlier post, varies quite a bit.
As does that of blacks. My point being that a family with skin color as dark as that of blacks can move into a neighborhood with no great effect - so long as they are Indian, not African.
I'm not in favor of AAction, but I thinkit is a valid point that when you disaggregate Asians, splitting off the East Asians and Indians and perhaps the Vietnamese from the rest of the "APA" community, you are left with a typically underachieving, struggling third world minority group.
My wife is Chinese, and she and her middle-aged friends, in addition to being anti-affirmative action, have views about blacks that would make Jared Taylor uncomfortable.
re: Romanian drop-outs in Canada
Since Romania has almost no Jews left (about half were butchered in the Holocaust, and the other half went to Israel,) I'd say the odds are very poor that any significant proportion of high-school age Romanian immigrants in Canada is Jewish.
According a cite on Wikipedia, the 2002 Romanian census found 6,000 Jews in the entire country. Even if there were 50 assimilated Jews for every one the census reported, Jews would still only be 1.5% of the population.
Emilia Liz, I'd say that your stat has nothing to do with Jews one way or the other. The Romanians in Canada are probably just striving immigrants like the Chinese.
-bushrod buttram
> My wife is Chinese, and
> she and her middle-aged
> friends, in addition to
> being anti-affirmative
> action, have views about
> blacks that would make
> Jared Taylor uncomfortable.
Too busy to look up a link for this one either, but I read somewhere on the web a couple years ago a reasonably reputable (and lengthy) blow-by-blow of the 1989 Tiananmen Square dust-up. According to this account, the famous international incident (which, of course, was supposed to symbolize "democracy", "generational change", "One World", and all sorts of other Big Important Things) simply started as a riot on a couple college campuses, where Chinese males were finally boiling over about wild parties where male African exchange students (invited into China by the ChiCom government as an alliance-building manouver) would get a lot of local females in attendance, but bar the doors to local males. True or not, it's not the sort of thing likely to get published in the Times or Newsweek ...
My goodness I certainly hope these folks don't turn their microscopes on the Anglo-Saxons! Then they'd find out we all get $100,000 and a yacht when we're born and a slot reserved for us at the Fortune 500 corporation of our choosing!
Senor Doug
"According to this account, the famous international incident...where Chinese males were finally boiling over about wild parties where male African exchange students."
'Wait, Dikembe's getting laid, I think I'll just lay down in front of this tank!, that'll show that bastard Mao!"
Yeah, I heard the same thing, in my version of the story there were, however white males invited; Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy and Kaiser Sose.
"it's not the sort of thing likely to get published in the Times or Newsweek ..."
Definitely the funniest part of a hillarious post!
Yes, Ian, the origin of the Tianmen Square protests as anti-black protests disturbed me when I first read it as well. A black friend once told me that after teaching in China for a few years, he suddenly "realized" how non-racist America is. It was that bad.
As for whether Europeans can survive without Asians....well you certainly did fine without us, including all that petty advanced physics, chemistry, astronomy, and mathematics. If you look at past economic wealth, India and China were both very rich and had their share of math/science achievements as well, but in the past few hundred years descended to third-world status, and trailing behind the West in technology. This was around the time when the West started colonizing. I can't help but wonder what the world would be like if all these ancient civilizations had been left to grow independently.....
...and ahem, back on topic.
Regarding the 1989 Tiananmen Square dust-up. Ive heard something similar, no idea of the veracity. I dont think anyone is claiming that Africans were monopolizing Chinese women and next thing you know 1000s are demonstrating against the regime. If true its more likely that that was the trigger for student protests which snowballed into a general protest.
Of course the thrusting investigative reporters of the MSM can be relied upon to do their bit to supress any story like this.
truth, the way it was presented may seem ludicrous. The Tian Men Square protests themselves were not based on the anti-black protests, but the participants and overall tensions were related to the anti-black protests which had occurred very recently. In fact, some Chinese youth at Tian Men Square were still carrying signs saying "Chinese women no offend" or something similar. Here is some more information:
http://www.mootsf.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8574
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE3DB143BF93AA15751C1A96E948260
This is a New York Times for those who doubt the existence of the racially motivated riots. I'm kind of surprised that Chinese women would be into the Ann Dunham thing and I think the whole "they're stealing our women" thing might have been an excuse for their rage against blacks like it was in the South for about 100 years.
One thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is that the riots started at a CHRISTMAS EVE party. I guess the African students weren't that committed to the banner of Marx, Lenin and Mao.
When a black family moves in you see white kids going to their house to buy drugs.
The blacks in my neighborhood would laugh at any whites who did that. The devout Baptist foster mom might have gone further than that and called the police.
where Chinese males were finally boiling over about wild parties where male African exchange students
Wasn't expecting to get this gem from this discussion, but confirmed by wikipedia here
The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 came 4 months after the anti-African protests in Nanjing and some elements of the Nanjing protests were still evident, such as banners proclaiming "No Offend Chinese Women"
There were anti-black riots in Beijing before 1989, heck, before it was Beijing, back when it was Peking. I recall reading about them in the late 1970s. Same cause as in 1989 -- Chinese men sore about black men (students from Africa given scholarships in the name of 3rd World socialist solidarity) getting with Chinese women.
Takahata Joe --
China and India were part of the "Big Man" societies. Any accomplishments belonged to the Big Men, not the innovators who in China at least were often Palace Eunuchs. Not much ability to pass on property to be continuously improved by one's sons or sons-in-laws.
Europe advanced, including during the Renaissance (before colonization) because it limited the Big Man and allowed the people in the middle of the social hierarchy to own and innovate for benefit of their own families. Yes men like Ghengis Khan left plenty of descendants, but male bottlenecks have their price.
The anti-African Chinese riots, and competition over ever-limited amounts of women are pretty indicative that there is a problem in China. One unlikely to have a happy ending.
The one group that I can think of that violates such a simple rule are Indians, who certainly live in a tropical environment, but seem to produce a fair share of nerds ...
I think they're high-caste, no? Razib? You reading this?
Indians in America are successful because they undergo a selection process.
Then again, Indians in Singapore are also successful and they are descended from indentured laborers from the south.
I say that Indians, especially the southerners, seem to go against the "tropical vs. cold weather selection" trend that otherwise is pretty much uniform. Honestly though, no one is going to confuse a software guy from Bangalore with a sub-Saharan African. Also, China isn't the coldest place in the world...
Evidently I've made some incorrect assumptions but I'm surprised this audience isn't a little more familiar with the ... damn, the 'D' word, that is India, culturally, socially and ethnically. And you talk about an AA nightmare ...
As an aside, frutlessly trying to make a point about the absurdity of the concept, every year when my corporate masters celebrate Asian American Day I make an ass of myself by asking where are the tributes Turkish culture ... and Jordanian ... and, hey, where is the Tajik food? Love those Asian Americans!
"Truth" attempted:
> 'Wait, Dikembe's getting
> laid, I think I'll just
> lay down in front of this
> tank!, that'll show that
> bastard Mao!"
I think the idea was that the male Chinese students wanted the Africans out. And the government officials were, as they do here, ignoring the people's wishes against immigration/integration. And so sexual protectiveness/jealousy was the flashpoint for the Chinese males, the issue of vital personal interest, that triggered protests about yes a whole host of broader/unrelated issues.
As Steve has wrote about so much more articulately than I could, black males have a masculinity, physical dominance, and charisma that asian and white females respond to. In the end, whether it's healthy or something that is going to bring good things to the women to pursue those urges, I'd join those saying "usually not", while many in the city I live in seem to feel otherwise. Nonetheless, I can understand the Chinese males saying "stay away from our women" - it's a way that I've felt many times before, but rarely vocalized (since I know that my white male friends are much more left wing than me, and probably wouldn't back me up on this one ...)
The 'professional' Asians are a joke. Here's a thought: No more affirmative action for anyone. Let's stop playing this idiotic game.
Discrepancies between Asians? Between the Chinese and the Indochonese? I wonder why (hint: see Charles Murray)? Let's move on.
These were scholarship students studying at the university because they could not do so at home.
Back in Japan the sort of immigration occurring in the West is unheard of, but smart students who come to study, from Mongolia or Bangladesh where these kind of facilities don't exist, are welcome.
Similarly, these were African students who had come to study at these universities and I wouldn't treat them like the way some Americans treat the "foreign invaders stealing our jobs", etc...
Yes, Ian, the origin of the Tianmen Square protests as anti-black protests disturbed me when I first read it as well. A black friend once told me that after teaching in China for a few years, he suddenly "realized" how non-racist America is. It was that bad.
The fact the Chinese are less sentimental about racial differences is a bad thing? Sentimentality is a nice trait to have - it softens the hard edges of life. But it can also be exploited - by business hucksters, race agitators...
Race agitators are putting a high price on the sentimentality gene. I wonder if it will still be around in a thousand years.
"Asian" is a very broad term. Where I live, NE Asians (Chinese, Koreans and Japanese) and Indians tend to be more successful academically than Whites, whereas Cambodians and Polynesians cluster with Blacks and Hispanics. (Like Blacks and Hispanics, Cambodians have a high rate of gang activity.)
Vietnamese(borderline between NE and SE due to Chinese cultural influence) and Filipinos (mostly English-speaking on arrival)are in between NE and SE Asians/
Polynesians in terms of academic performance. Filipinos and Japanese(the latter have been here 3-4 generations) are better represented in the civil service sector and less represented in the small business sector than Koreans or Vietnamese.
The Hmong (we don't have many around here, but I have read about them) are closely related genetically to the Chinese(they seem to have originated in west-central China and gradually moved south as the Han expanded south and west) but they are very different culturally from both the Chinese and the lowland SE Asians. IOW, there is no Confucian or Buddhist influence in their culture (they do not have a tradition of literacy, and their religion is entirely animist and shamanist.)
Europe advanced, including during the Renaissance (before colonization) because it limited the Big Man and allowed the people in the middle of the social hierarchy to own and innovate for benefit of their own families.
I'd say the Black Death did most of the work.
I find it funny that theyre so worried about destroying the idea and notion of a "model minority" for Asians, while insisting that just as many are struggling and impoverished and are violent. Meanwhile, they try to pretend that blacks in this country who cause insane amounts of crime and poverty are unfairly hit with that stereotype and are actually just as diverse etc as WHites. Indeed you cant even say "but blacks..." without some moron jumping in and shouting THERES JUST AS MANY WHITE SCUMBAGS COMMITTING CRIME AS BLACKS!!! I am sorry, per capita that is simply not true.
Why is it ok to insult and make fun of Asians, especially the CHinese in the USA especially around liberals but not blacks or hispanics?
Go to a place like Fark.com which is infested with insane rabid liberals. Say anything remotely not brimming with respect and praise about blacks and you are swarmed by white liberals. The same white liberals can be seen in articles making numerous jokes about Asians, in such a racist way that it makes my head explode.
Me, I'm wondering how many of the "Romanians" were Gypsies. That seems to be the case in Italy. Steve, write more about Gypsies. They're fascinating.
--Zen Redneck
One of you enterprising young white gents should contact one of your favorite Jews in Hollywood, I feel a Chinese Sitcom coming on!
Yin: "Liu, we must rebel against the system!"
Liu: "No, I've got a Doberman in the oven."
(canned laughter)
Yin: "But Liu, Our goverment has interned your uncle for 20 years over an unfounded rumor!"
Liu: "I never liked that uncle anyway."
Yin: "But Liu, chairman Mao has murdered 40 million of our people."
Liu: "China is overcrowded, do you not Tom Brokaw?"
(laughter)
Yin: "But Liu, what about the notorious one child policy?"
Liu: "Yin, if you had a sister, would you have received all of those death-to-Chang-Kai-Check day presents?"
(laughter)
Yin: What about the slave like conditions in our factories?"
Liu: My father just got a raise to seven dollars a month, I think you are jealous!"
Yin: "Oh, never-mind, you are hopeless as a revolutionary. By the way, did you hear that Ching-Quai, your girlfriend from freshman year is dating the black devil in 4B?
Liu: "THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE, WHERE IS MY MACHETTE? COME YIN, WE MUST MARCH ON BEIJING TO PUNISH THESE CAPITALIST INFILTRAITORS FOR THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS!!!!"
I love you guys, I haven't laughed so hard since I read on amren.com, that the reason the Japanese have taken over the Big Three Automakers market share is because of the blacks on the assembly lines.
I get one guy posting a link from a website that can be edited by anyone without a single attributed quote from any Chinese government official, and a NYT quote that does not tie Nanjing to Beijing in any way!
Not only that, but in a country in which the primary mode of transportation was (and still is) the bicycle), with a state owned press and very few private telephones, the "movement" somehow got from Nanjing to Beijing (4 months later) which by the way is 757 miles away or roughly the distance from New York to Chicago.
"some elements of the Nanjing protests were still evident, such as banners proclaiming "No Offend Chinese Women"
Oh you think? And what about those fake Tibetian monks from Beijing a few months ago?
http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/
chinese-orchestrating-riots-tibet.
htm
And of course all of the FIFTY-SIX THOUSAND students involved in the protest were really angry about the darkies, but what about the THREE TO FIVE MILLION WORKERS? Was Quantavious the plant foreman fooling around with all of their wives?
Actually this sort of diplomacy is not at all unusual amongst brilliant, knowledgeable political analysts.
http://justjared.buzznet.com/2007/
07/27/lindsay-lohan-dui-guys/
Honestly guys, why spend your time on silly unfounded rumors I deal strictly in verifiable facts:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/od
/fooddrink/a/little_mikey.htm
Oh and by the way, the Gulf war started because the Iraquis "Tried to kill my dad!"
""The fact the Chinese are less sentimental about racial differences is a bad thing?"'
Yes.
These were African students who wanted to get a better education opportunity and were granted scholarships.
I am perfectly open to discussing race, IQ, behavior, and etc, but I do not consider myself a "racist" or "race agitator", because in the long run, we're all going to end up dead so I'm going to try and make life pleasant for a person who may have been born black or whatever at random, as long as they earn my respect. I'm not going to go after African university students pursuing better opportunities because of their race.
I mean, if in some alternate life I was one of the smarter black men than I would want to immigrate to pursue higher education as well. What about you? Would you stifle your own mind and say "I'm an African and therefore I must remain this way until I die after a pointless life". I know I wouldn't.
If these guys were hustling prostitutes like some Africans do in Japan, then I wouldn't have any sympathy, but that's not the case here.
By the way, in contrast to an earlier expressed opinion, Vietnamese do much worse than Filipinos in socioeconomic terms. Filipinos are even ahead of Chinese in certain statistics (I think income was one of them).
@ billy:
Brilliant. I want to add something but I just can't. You said it all perfectly.
“The notion of lumping all people into a single category and assuming they have no needs is wrong,” said Alma R. Clayton-Pederson...
Sure, they have needs, but it might come as a shock to the professor that they don't need his help meeting them. For instance, Korean-Americans have the market cornered on stores that sell beauty supplies to black women. Often, those stores function as a safety net for 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants who are on the left side of the curve and never attend college. Of course, even the dimmest Koreans push their children to do well in school in hopes that one day they'll obtain a college degree. Clearly this professor has some other agenda than fixing what isn't broken.
Ian said...
I myself have noticed in the bay area that most Asians that look and act really "Gangsta" (and listen to R&B/rap, and the girls date hip-hop looking black and hispanic dudes) look SE Asian, not NE Asian
___
I've noticed pretty much the same. Philipinas/Cambodian girls and the like seem to hang out with black and hispanic youth a lot. Of course I don't know how many SE asians are *not* hanging out with them, but it's glaringly obvious that NE asians aren't doing the same thing. Could it have something to do with IQ ? the (non chinese) SE asians maybe relate to US underclass people, while the NE asians simply don't ?
While NE asians certainly aren't out there befriending and hanging out with black people , they do enjoy some black cultural products : I used to see countless flyers advertising chinese/taiwanese/etc RnB/HipHop parties . Black music, without black people i guess ..
As for the japanese, they're in their own world..
___
Takahata Joe said...
If these guys were hustling prostitutes like some Africans do in Japan, then I wouldn't have any sympathy, but that's not the case here.
___
Frankly I'm surprised that the japanese let them get away with it. I guess they aren't violent enough to kick the pimps out ? What are the yakuza saying about that ? Then again i've heard that even in *russia* (aka anti-african central) some africans are bold enough to get into various criminal activities and pimping . In any case, Joe, I'm ashamed of those people.
I just don't understand how any NE asian feels the need to belong to an oppressed minority. It's glaringly obvious to everyone that NE asians are doing great in north-america. They're not doing perfect, but who is ? Their home countries are either doing fantastic or getting there fast. What can possibly be wrong with that ? I wish i could say the same about my own race and the countries my race originates from. Black people are underdogs but there's nothing great about that is there ? Where's the glory ? What are the long term benefits ? How can ANYONE wish to be part an oppressed/unsuccessful minority ? It must be some leftist/underdog status craving/martyrdom loving thought that I just can't grasp at all...
takahata joe:
"If these guys were hustling prostitutes like some Africans do in Japan, then I wouldn't have any sympathy, but that's not the case here."
That's exactly what was happening. There had been problems with African students harrassing Chinese women, so the Chinese Communist government started providing them with Chinese prostitutes. Apparently that didn't satisfy the Chinese male students.
Re NE vs SE Asians; the two form very different clusters on the IQ data, see eg IQ and the Wealth of Nations. NE Asians' median IQ is around 105, higher than American whites, while SE Asians in SE Asia score around 85-90, ie more like American black & Hispanic scores. So the differences in behaviour are unsurprising.
> If black men weren't so
> segregated from white
> girls in this country,
> this whole country
> would be mulatto within
> a few generations. Fact.
Yeah. And, if that happened, then the country would be like Africa - violent, mismanaged, and technologically backward.
> Hell, most white girls
> even get "jungle fever."
For white women, black men are like an addiction, like snorting cocaine or eating only ice cream sundaes for breakfast lunch and dinner - their body responds with immediate pleasure, even though it's generally in the long term unhealthy. For many of my white female friends, it seems like sex with black guys is a stage they go through; they end up saying, yeah, they're hot, but they're not loyal, not honest, and abusive, and it's not worth the hot sex.
I saw some website a while back where some old white woman with a black husband listed the three reasons why white women hook up with black men - (1) hot animal sex, (2) political activism/guilt, and (3) the ugly duckling syndrome (an unattractive white woman can get a hotter black guy than she can get a white guy, just because she's white). I think that we can add that modern PC / feminism / corporate culture is constantly trying to shave down any self-respect, fierceness, or independence in white men, while constantly pumping up black men's masculinity (dominance, anger, assertion).
The one group that I can think of that violates such a simple rule are Indians, who certainly live in a tropical environment, but seem to produce a fair share of nerds ...
India is a very complex caste society.
> Hell, most white girls
> even get "jungle fever."
Most? Speaking as a white female,very few. A few and that is often encouraged by the media. Kind of like white guys having a thing for "oriental" girls--they've found that that's not really so true but white guys are neutral and will go for them if they seem receptive or make the first move.
Most white girls of my dating days were always trying to avoid and/or escape the blacks that approached them without seeming impolite or "racist."
Most people who end up as couples of any duration have IQs with a few points of each other. This absolutely cancels out long term black/white couples. The IQ overlap is just to sparse.
"Even whites do it: I've met Greeks and Portuguese who seem to feel that they're not white,"
Greeks and Portugese who say they're not white? Where'd you get that one? Never heard of that and I knew lots Greeks. They owned most of the restaurants in my home city. Spiro Agnew was Greek. Greeks do NOT consider themselves anything but Europeans. They are as white as most though during the summer, most do tan pretty well.
As for Portuguese, maybe you mean Cape Verde or that other island off Africa whose name I can never remember. A lot them went to New England. Maybe some of them would be of ambiguous origins. But Portuguese in Portugal? Barring recent mixing, they are unambiguously European.
I'm beginning to think the Obamaites might have infilitrated this board. Watch out--there's nothing like a rabid liberal for wiping the white out of white.
anonymous wrote:
"Of course the thrusting investigative reporters of the MSM can be relied upon to do their bit to supress any story like this."
"The Nation" did a piece on the racial angle of the Tiananmen Square protests. That was back in '89. As we all know "The Nation," though not part of the MSM, isn't actually the most conservative publication around.
Simon said:
"That's exactly what was happening. There had been problems with African students harrassing Chinese women, so the Chinese Communist government started providing them with Chinese prostitutes. Apparently that didn't satisfy the Chinese male students."
Source please..And were most African students harassing these women or were they successful at wooing them which angered Chinese males?
The response of these Chinese males is a more extreme and hysterical version of the response of some African-American women when they see black men with white women. They accuse these women of "stealing" their men, when in fact these men have successfully wooed these white women.
It seems like these Chinese men had a similar reaction: scarcity of the opposite sex led to over the top reactions to others dealing with kinfolk of the opposite sex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Anti-African_protests
If you look at past economic wealth, India and China were both very rich and had their share of math/science achievements as well, but in the past few hundred years descended to third-world status, and trailing behind the West in technology.
Got any evidence that this "decline" was in anything but relative terms? I doubt very much the "prosperity" of the past in India and China didn't include hordes of destitute peasants.
China and India didn't slow down because of the west, they sped up. But that still wasn't enough to keep the west from blowing past them. Only a nut would consider this a decline and blame it on the golden goose.
"I myself have noticed in the bay area that most Asians that look and act really "Gangsta" (and listen to R&B/rap, and the girls date hip-hop looking black and hispanic dudes) look SE Asian, not NE Asian"
I did a rotation in Child Psychiatry recently, and a 15 year old Cambodian girl came in who talked and acted like a black girl. This was highly unusual for an Asian female. It was even more odd when we found out that she lived in an upper middle class, white suburb.
zen redeneck,
As for Gypsy immigrants, I don't think you realize just how primitive Romanian Gypsies are. Many of them are illiterate. Since they all drop out in Romania, it is pretty funny to suggest that they would be dedicated students in Canada.
In any case, Gypsies are also only about 2% of the Romanian population.
The more on-point question would be how many of these dedicated scholars are Magyars or Szecklers. That I can't answer, but ethnic Hungarians are only a small proportion of the Romanian diaspora in Europe, so it's hard to see why they would be a large proportion of the diaspora in Canada.
-bushrod
Lucille re: When a black family moves in you see white kids going to their house to buy drugs.
"The blacks in my neighborhood would laugh at any whites who did that. The devout Baptist foster mom might have gone further than that and called the police."
Thats interesting but only amounts to argument from anecdote. Are you seriously suggesting thats whats going on all over in black neighborhoods?
I just don't understand how any NE asian feels the need to belong to an oppressed minority.
it stems from how little popular culture seems to respect them. they come to the US, study their asses off in the 1st and 2nd gen, and are marginalized as fobs, dweebs, geeks, and human calculators. when they aren't stereotyped as geniuses, they're kung fu experts or sex kittens. it's only recently in shows like lost that represent asians as anything other than one dimensional. even then, the characters aren't asian-american.
the import car modding scene blew up among asian american males partly as a rejection of that emasculation. it's also why asian americans are now so prevalent in the street dance scene. all ppl want cultural status and asian americans don't have it. it wasn't until lost that 2 asian characters had ever kissed on a prime time tv show. there are no equivalents to brad and angelina or jay-z and beyonce in the US. that is a big psychological factor to some ppl.
Look at the Portuguese World Cup soccer team, and you'll see the variety of hues endemic to a former naval power with colonies the world over, just like the Brits.
That doesn't mean a "real" Portuguese accepts them as such, because they're Cape Verdeans when it suits them, and Portuguese when it doesn't. Said Cape Vereans started coming to New England under the Portuguese immigration quota back in the late 60's, and couldn't wait to adopt black culture for their own, as demonstrated by the fact that the local media blames ethnic Cape Verdeans for driving a lot of the Boston gun violence now.
Brutus
--->That's exactly what was happening. There had been problems with African students harrassing Chinese women, so the Chinese Communist government started providing them with Chinese prostitutes. Apparently that didn't satisfy the Chinese male students.<---
Sorry, if you could just provide a source....
In my own research of this, the common story that has been formed is that the African students were there on scholarship and received some benefits which made the Chinese hostile towards them. The final step was with African men consorting with Chinese women, especially with the cultural differences involved.
I've never seen any evidence or even any opinion that stated that they were harassing the women or being given prostitutes, so you'll excuse me for not believing it.
--->wongba - Please don't give BS about how the mainstream doesn't respect us. Compared to many other ethnic groups, we are treated incredibly well in America.
------>Frankly I'm surprised that the japanese let them get away with it. I guess they aren't violent enough to kick the pimps out ? What are the yakuza saying about that ? Then again i've heard that even in *russia* (aka anti-african central) some africans are bold enough to get into various criminal activities and pimping . In any case, Joe, I'm ashamed of those people.<------
I'm pretty sure the reason the authorities don't stop it is because they don't want to. Sex services are huge in Japan, especially with men who are too overworked or tired to have a meaningful relationship so prefer to just go to sex shops once a week.
Japan is probably the least anti-black place in East Asia which is ironic since we're known for being xenophobic to the extreme. But we're starting to move on, while Korea and China are racism deathtraps if you're an African.
The places where blacks and whites live in closest and most numerous proximity are also the places with lowest inter-racial mixing.
Anyone has data on South African intermarriages?
From what I've heard, while the Boers may be going extinct, it's not because they would be turning mulatto...
LOL at the old white lady who said that very few white girls are interested in blacks.
Yeah, maybe back in the 1950s when you were young, but today (as in 2008, you old coot) white girls love black men. Go to any dance club and see how many white girls are dancing and grinding up against the brothers.
Like I said before, the only thing stopping more interracial mating is the fact that there blacks and whites are geographically segregated.
Some of you need to get out more.
t joe, there's a difference between being used as a foil for complaints by other minorities and being respected. if u don't care, u don't care. some asian americans do care.
>> Hell, most white girls
>> even get "jungle fever."
>
> Most? Speaking as a white
> female,very few.
On weekend nights in the city that I live, on the sidewalks and in restaurants,WF/BM couples are everywhere. And if my housemates, friends, and acquaintances are any indication, the rate of WF/BM casual dating and sex is a lot higher than even the (way too high, IMO) rate of WF/BM marriage.
> Were most African students harassing these
> women or were they successful at wooing
> them which angered Chinese males?
> They accuse these women of "stealing" their
> men, when in fact these men have successfully
> wooed these white women.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter.
White and Asian women are biologically programmed to respond to men who are charming, confident, dominant, masculine, muscular, emotionally resonant, and communicative. Whites' and Asians' women's genes evolved in the ancient world only surround by white and Asian males, respectively, however. Now, in the modern world, when white and Asian women mix together with black males, they often find them compelling - black men are, yes, on average, more charming, confident, dominant, masculine, muscular, emotionally resonant, and communicative than white or Asian men. But black men are also on average also more violent and unnessesarily belligerent, selfish, unintelligent, impulsive, irresponsible, and sexually obsessed/disloyal than white and Asian men, and that all is unhealthy for women, but it doesn't come out until later. So, even if a white or Asian woman is open to a black males advances, that doesn't mean it's not, in some abstract sense, "stealing".
It’s like when a computer virus finds something in an operating system that is designed to do something benign, and exploits an unintended design flaw to get the program to do something it wasn't designed to do. Or how we humans evolved to seek our and eat as much sugar as we can - but that trait evolved in a world where our ancestors could expect to come across some honeycomb every other month, not a world where sugar is freely available everywhere. In each case, the way the system was designed can be exploited to it's own detriment when exposed to phenomenon it was not designed to deal with.
I will not vote for Obama, most especially because I find the story of what happened between his parents utterly repulsive.
> Greeks and Portugese who say they're not white?
> Where'd you get that one? ... Greeks do NOT
> consider themselves anything but Europeans.
I once dated a Greek-American woman, feminine sexy and beautiful as all get out, and medium-olive-skinned but otherwise completely European looking. What she told me however was that she considered herself black and that, except for me, she only dated black men. Bugged the sh*t out of me.
And I drew two conclusions from this:
1. In America, basically, you are either "black" or your "white". Some ethnics chose to get jobs and pay taxes and basically join the white system. And some declare, overtly or implicitly, that they are black (like Hispanics, Cambodians, etc. who listen to hip-hop and R&B, refer to each other as "N*gga", get into graffiti tagging, etc.)
1. Everybody loves a winner, and wants to be part of the winning team. And, right now, in the trenches, hip-hop is kicking white culture's butt. Don't agree with Laurence Auster on everything, but I do agree that white culture has lost it's will, spine, and pride, and that it's something for us to get back.
So many people today just assume that black men are so much more 'masculine' and 'dominant' than whites. That may be true in the eyes of the average coddled beta male who grew up sucking on the teat of anti-white television programming. But ask the average white of hundred years ago who pretty much conquered the world, as to who is more 'dominant'- black or white. Ask the average white of the past - who conquered hostile wilderness and ran into the path of bullets for the 'glory' of his nations during two World Wars which he pretty much fought amongst himself (along with the Japanese) - about what 'masculine' is.
It's interesting how once you melt away the primitive conditions of a drunken bar fight and have combat that's even slightly more organized how the super-machismo posturing of the southern cultures melts away and they are left with only two options - surrender and begging for mercy. That is the world we live in today and blacks are at the bottom of that scale.
The only reason blacks are allowed such easy access to white women and white resources is because of internal in-fighting amongst white subgroups. Maybe one of these days white people will overcome their differences and decide to survive for a little while longer. Otherwise it has been a good run.
----->I will not vote for Obama, most especially because I find the story of what happened between his parents utterly repulsive.<------
What exactly does the actions of his parents have to do with his own worth as a presidential candidate?
If you don't want to vote for him, do it because he's under qualified, not because of what his parents did a few decades ago.
Takahata Joe said...
Japan is probably the least anti-black place in East Asia which is ironic since we're known for being xenophobic to the extreme. But we're starting to move on, while Korea and China are racism deathtraps if you're an African.
I hope you remain xenophobic towards Blacks. No-one has a right to move to Japan unless they are Japanese, and that means neither Whites nor Blacks should be allowed to move there permanently. Japan doesn't need a criminal underclass from abroad, I'm sure the Yakuza could run the whorehouses in your country quite fine on their own.
I hope your government expels these invaders.
Ask the average white of the past - who conquered hostile wilderness and ran into the path of bullets for the 'glory' of his nations during two World Wars which he pretty much fought amongst himself (along with the Japanese) - about what 'masculine' is,
I offer Robert Kaplan's Imperial Grunts as evidence that such men still exist, perhaps not in the same numbers, but they haven't completely departed the Earth.
Re Romanian Gypsies :
I've had exactly one encounter with gypsies that i was aware of. One was a neighbour in my appartment building. A neighbour was a rumanian gypsy who actually looked like he came straight out of India ( very dark skinned with jet black hair ). I let him use my phone a couple of times to call rumania. He paid me . Then he showed up unannounced with relatives (!) to use my phone. Since I'd let him use it before and didn't want to embarass him in front of his relatives, I let him and family use the phone. I figured that I'd let that happen only once and that he'd pay me back anyways. He then moved out and left me with the bill..
Stereotypes : not always wrong !
Japan doesn't need a criminal underclass from abroad
apparently koreans already fill this role in japan. they also don't well in academics there. they aren't living up to their stereotype...oh noes!
I too am a white female, I've "gotten out" as much as you like, and I've never had the slightest interest in a romantic relationship with a black guy. My male interest has always been (and is now)a tall, broad shouldered, deep voiced white English male. I don't have a single white female friend who has a black boyfriend, or wants one.
Everyone's "proof", including mine, is anecdotal, and I wonder if what a previous poster wrote about modern day beta males isn't true, especially since the main complainers of BM/WF relationships seem to be posting from the hip Northwest - surely ground zero for hippies, emos and other males young women might view as being useless in a tight situation.
t joe,
"Back in Japan the sort of immigration occurring in the West is unheard of, but smart students who come to study, from Mongolia or Bangladesh where these kind of facilities don't exist, are welcome.
Similarly, these were African students who had come to study at these universities and I wouldn't treat them like the way some Americans treat the "foreign invaders stealing our jobs", etc..."
Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but it isn't students from all over the world coming to America to study that bothers Americans, it's that, once they get here, very few of them ever seem to want to leave. Once in the States, life becomes a single minded pursuit of staying any way possible and getting a job, so they do take jobs away. I'd be willing to bet that the welcome for foreign students in Japan would dry up pretty quickly if, once there, they wouldn't leave and tried to get Japanese jobs. You said it yourself: the sort of immigration the West has doesn't exist in Japan, so you can't really compare attitudes.
By and large, Americans of Southern European descent consider themselves White. But many Greeks, Portuguese and Italians do make a distinction between themselves and other Whites (WASPs and other northern Europeans). I am of Sicilian descent, and I have been guilty of this myself.
Greeks and Portuguese may be more likely to make such a distinction than Italians because of less intermarriage and more recent arrival.
This distinction between N and S Europeans is a lot more significant in Australia than the US (have you ever heard the Australian term "wog"?) given that the immigration from Italy and Greece to Australia took place mostly after WWII, and that Australia was almost entirely White at the time.(Asian immigration was banned, and Aborigines lived in isolated wilderness areas.)
The growing Muslim population in Australia may encourage Southern Europeans and Middle Eastern Christians in Australia to identify more with Anglo-Aussies.
The one group that I can think of that violates such a simple rule are Indians, who certainly live in a tropical environment, but seem to produce a fair share of nerds ...
I think they're high-caste, no? Razib? You reading this?
--
rec1man
--
While most Indians in USA are brahmins and other upper castes,
even backward caste hindus have low crime rates and very low rates of illegitimacy
The caste system strongly discourages illegitimacy
In Fiji and Mauritius and caribbean the Indian diaspora is mostly backward castes and dalits and is relatively low crime
In the Indian context, muslim neighborhoods are similar to black neighborhoods in the US
Islamic ghettos have bloody borders
all over India
While black violence is mostly aimed at getting money
Islamic violence and sexual predation ( targeting of kafir women and kafir money ) has religious sanction
In India, the 15% muslims comprise 50% of the prison population
In UK, the muslim areas are more dangerous than the black areas
and muslims perform at black academic levels
ogunsiron,
Gypsies practice a very sharply-bifurcated ingroup/outgroup morality. They don't steal from one another but they believe it is good to steal from "Gorgias" (non-Gypsies.)
This is cultural, of course. There are also some assimilated Gypsies who are solid citizens; I know some like that from school. They come from families that consciously rejected the Gypsy way of life so of course they are a minority among the Gypsy race.
Hungarian, Romanian, Russian, or Spanish, Gypsies remain Gypsies. They are unpleasant, so no one likes them.
-bushrod
"But many Greeks, Portuguese and Italians do make a distinction between themselves and other Whites (WASPs and other northern Europeans). I am of Sicilian descent, and I have been guilty of this myself.
Greeks and Portuguese may be more likely to make such a distinction than Italians because of less intermarriage and more recent arrival. "
Sure, that makes sense. Of course they form a contrast to northern type whites especially when all the kids in the classroom are of European extraction. I went to a Catholic school and the southern Italian kids did sort of stand out with their black hair and eyebrows from the brown haired Irish-Lith-Slovak-German, etc. mix. It's just that the Mediterranean type is very much a part of European historical/genetic/cultural/social/religous story. Also, intermarriage sort of blurs the distinctions among European ethnicities. One classmate had bright red hair and freckles. Her dad was a black haired, olive skinned southern Italian. Her mom was Irish. So there you are. We all used to laugh when she'd proudly declare "I'm Italian!" or insist she looked like her dad, which she did as far as features. Still, there are red-haired Italians and black haired Irish. I've also heard northern Italians describe themselves as "white" Italians. So yeah, I see your point even if it's probably a little dated.
In general, I agree with the nativist and anti-immigration sentiments being expressed here. However, I am married to a Chinese woman; and as you might expect, I make an exception in their case. I won't enumerate all the reasons why they are considered the "ideal" immigrant group. I think that these are understood by all. I would just point out that it is the failure of caucasions to reproduce themselves in sufficient numbers that has put the future of the country at risk.
During my lifetime, Afo-Americans have grown from being 10% of a 200 million population to 13% of 300 million population. Caucasions are scheduled to become a minority by some time in the middle of this century. (Estimates range from 2038 to 2060.) The only question is, "Whom do you wish to see replace us?" If the Chinese were allowed to grow from their present numbers to being our largest minority--say 15% of the population--their economic success would undoubtedly cause a great deal of resentment, but America would still be a decent county to live in, and probably a more prosperous country than it is at present.
-ronduck said:-------->I hope you remain xenophobic towards Blacks. No-one has a right to move to Japan unless they are Japanese, and that means neither Whites nor Blacks should be allowed to move there permanently.<--------
Personally, I don't see how I have some majestic "right" to live in Japan just because I was born here by random accident. However, that's the most hassle-free way of looking at things, so I accept it. But I'm not going to condemn some African guy who may have some talent to a pointless life just because he was born as a black guy. Sure, the number of Africans with talent are less than other groups, but that's not the fault of the few black men who do possess the capabilities.
I'm as much of a science-oriented and reality-based guy as the next, but I also think that moral philosophy is not completely irrelevant to the human existence.....
------Anonymous said...------------------------>Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but it isn't students from all over the world coming to America to study that bothers Americans, it's that, once they get here, very few of them ever seem to want to leave. Once in the States, life becomes a single minded pursuit of staying any way possible and getting a job, so they do take jobs away. I'd be willing to bet that the welcome for foreign students in Japan would dry up pretty quickly if, once there, they wouldn't leave and tried to get Japanese jobs. You said it yourself: the sort of immigration the West has doesn't exist in Japan, so you can't really compare attitudes.<--------------------------
Yes, you have misunderstood me. I was responding to the situation of the Chinese students and their anti-African protests towards African scholarship students. I was merely stating that in Japan there are plenty of students from poorer nations like Mongolia and Bangladesh who come here to study, and we have no hostility towards them, in comparison to the above mentioned behaviour of the Chinese.
---------------------->The one group that I can think of that violates such a simple rule are Indians, who certainly live in a tropical environment, but seem to produce a fair share of nerds ...<-----------------
Steve mentioned this in a post a few years ago. I suppose something I should add is that neither of the ancestors of the main groups in India originate in the southern tropics. The darker Dravidians once resided in their ancient Indus Valley civilization much farther north, and then later the lighter Indo-Europeans migrated into the subcontinent from the northwest, pushing them to the south. Maybe Steve's answer of "genetic drift" aka "randomness" is a factor as well. I tend to think the effects of caste are due to environment because you would then expect the higher average caste Indian states to be developing faster than the lower average caste ones, which isn't reflected in reality.
What I find more curious is why Punjabis and Pashtuns, the inhabitants of Pakistan, do so much worse than Indians whenever compared with them, whether in the United Kingdom, the darker Singapore Indians or pretty much anywhere else. I do kind of agree with the earlier poster about the odd overrepresentation of the Muslim groups in Indian prisons, and similarity with the African Americans in America. Example, Maharashtra has 10% Muslims but its prisons have 30% Muslims. However, don't assume these are terrorism charges....
I've read the story about blacks fraternising with local woman in China causing resentment and disturbance before, but I seriously doubt that it bears too much relevance to the Tiananmen Square protests.
As a resident of Shanghai for over four years, I can tell you that in China's largest city at least, the sight of a black man dating a Chinese woman causes little public outcry or perturbance. In fact, the reaction is usually the same as the sight of most white foreign male/local woman couples, i.e. mirth and derision at the fact that only rejects and losers within the local gene pool choose to date foreign passport hoolders. In my experience, desirable women in China tend to confine themselves exclusively to affluent local men, or else Hong Kong and Taiwanese businessmen. Even affluent Western businessmen find it hard to date anything but the dregs.
Shanghai is also host to a sizeable male prostitution industry that caters primarily to women. While in the West, the working assumption is that a gigolo's clients are women who are too unsightly and gross to obtain sex anywhere else (how hard is it for a woman to get laid anywhere), in China, a gigolo's patrons are often extremely attractive - trophy brides, girls who are kept by affluent, older businessmen, and KTV hostesses. Such women derive their financial sustenance from men whom they don't find attractive, so they seek amorous gratification from this class of professionals.
If you see these men, however, you realise just how much the alpha male archetype varies from culture to culture. None of these guys would ever be considered attractive in an Anglo-Saxon country - although much taller than average, they are all slender and extremely effete, really more like boy-band stars than anything else.
It's not as if there is a dearth of butch, masculine men to go around - northern China is host to a huge number of tall and brawny jock-types (my suspicion is that this is due to the genetic contribution of invaders from the Central Asian steppe). Yet you will find none of these physical types in a Shanghaignese gigolo bar - only, as mentioned previously, these slender and elegant types, that in any Western country would be pinned as effeminate homosexuals.
I find them to be utterly absurd in appearance and style, but I will concede that they are extremely accomplished professionals. I have seen one gigolo in action, seducing a friend's girlfriend at a busy bar. I have never seen anyone charm and cajole with such grace and aplomb. Within 20 minutes of striking up conversation (with my friend in the immediate viscinity), the girl agreed to follow him elsewhere without a moment's hesitation.
I really don't think anyone is claiming the Tianamen protests were about black students and their activities. That only needed to be a trigger.
Isnt it more plausible that Chinese students complained to the 'authorities' other complaints were added and before long the whole thing had snowballed. To the point where most people involved wouldnt even know anything about the original issue.
I think it's amusing how some anti-immigration people will pause their hard line sentiment and say "Well, maybe just a few Chinese people" because of some fixation they have (perhaps a feti...never mind). It clearly isn't for socioeconomic reasons, since Chinese, while they do good, aren't at the top.
What I find ironic about it is that the Chinese, especially here in Canada, are the most abusive of Canada's generous immigration policy. The Chinese treat Canada as free and open space that they can come and colonize for their own benefit, ignoring the established culture, society, and people. And all the while, without shaming, openly declaring that they are proud Chinese people who hold no allegiance to Canada and would go back to China in a heartbeat if...well, if they actually wanted to return.
There are many immigrants from the Middle-East, south-east Asia, Japan (like me), India, and Eastern Europe here in Canada. You will see occasional Indian Saree shops or Greek food restaurants, and occasionally a Muslim-plaza of sorts.
But only the Chinese have colonized entire blocks and streets, seemingly, for the sole purpose of the Chinese community. Only in the Chinese community could you come as a new immigrant and live your life in Canada exactly the same as you did in China, with the added benefit of being in a first-world country.
They never learn English because they don't have to - there are Chinese language services for anything they'd ever need. They don't learn about Canadian history or culture because they don't need to or care about it, to them Canada is just some country where you can go and be with other Chinese people but without the hassles in China. Only the Chinese have proudly and without any guilt, taken over series of Canadian buildings and put up so many Chinese signs and details that the english Canadian who has lived for generations in this city suddenly feels like a stranger in his own hometown.
Naturally, I am not trying to say bad things about all Chinese, since that would be stereotypical, but this is the trend, and it almost disgusts me. I'm Japanese so some of you may also hold me as part of your anti-immigration, but all I have to say is this - we have, for the most part, assimilated and become Canadians, which at least sets us apart from the already huge and growing Chinese community, which is for some reason being welcomed by some of you even as you despise cultural genocide.
Takahata Joe views on Chinese Canadians are exaggerated. While the ethnic transformation of greater Toronto (and other Canadian cities) and the multicultural policies of the government that promote this are completely and shockingly out of control, it is not true that the Chinese have behaved in a manner that is altogether different from that of other recently arrived ethnic groups. Most Japanese Canadians descend from old and relatively small immigrant communities. These communities have had more time to assimilate into English Canadian culture, and this was helped along by the fact that there was no official multiculturalism before the 1970s. All the same, a city like Toronto is full of ethnic areas. There are areas heavily populated by and often culturally defined by Italians (Little Italy), Greeks (Davenport), Koreans (West Bloor), Indians (Brambladesh!!!), etc.
Yes, as expected, some apologist with a certain kind of complex has appeared. Let me assure any readers that it is hard to believe that "anonymous" truly lives in Toronto at all. The dominance of everything Chinese no matter where you turn in the city is far beyond Koreans in West Bloor or Greeks in Davenport. Let me assure you there is no day in my life where I do not go to work on public transit hearing constant Chinese speech, walk to my office through hordes of Chinese signs and stores, have to speak to Chinese customers who can barely speak English (and don't want to learn), then go back to the bus stop, which at this point has been covered in an advertisement written fully in Chinese. Some more Chinese chatter across the bus, and I'm home. Rinse and repeat.
The apologist here must be very dedicated to his cause to compare the increasing colonization of Toronto to the Chinese to Greeks and Davenport. But, this was predicted, of course. See my above post.
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