Nearly three years after a father and daughter were set ablaze and the mother, Dhanak, had her throat slit, details surrounding one of Orange County's most notorious cases are surfacing.
[Iftekhar] Murtaza, 25, of Van Nuys, and his two friends – Vitaliy Krasnoperov, 24, of West Hollywood and Charles Anthony Murphy Jr., 25, of Mission Hills – remain behind bars.
The trio of suspects is accused of killing Jayprakash Dhanak, 56, and Karishma Dhanak, 20, the father and sister of Shayona Dhanak, Murtaza's former girlfriend. ...
The prosecutor, Senior Deputy District Attorney Howard Gundy, said a dispute over religion was at the core of the crime.
Shayona Dhanak's parents disapproved of her nearly three-year relationship with Murtaza, who was Muslim. Murtaza was angry with the Dhanaks, who are devout Hindus, for interfering with his relationship, according to court records. The couple broke up several weeks before the slayings.
Gundy said Murtaza wanted to kill Shayona Dhanak's family so she would have no one left but him.
One problem today's youth face in living up to the high marks set by past generations at committing a high volume of crimes is that they are so addicted to electronic communications that they leave digital trails everywhere, making it hardly worth their while to break the law. For example, the kid who stabbed seven times this woman my wife knows while stealing her cell phone and laptop, immediately called his gang friends with the stolen phone. The cops traced the calls and came down hard on the friends a few hours later, and they rolled over on him. He was arrested the day after his crime.
Similarly, these three guys in this story exchanged lots of text messages such as:
IFTEKHAR SaYz: shayonas parents made us breakup
crowseeker: (expletive deleted)
IFTEKHAR SaYz: dude I wantto kill them
crowseeker: how?
My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer
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110 comments:
Even stealing a car now (in the era of Onstar and similar services) is going to be exceedingly difficult. They can just shut the car off when its reported stolen.
Everything one types on their computer can be used as evidence against them if its ever seized. Tweets have already been made public in murder cases (Steve McNair).
Many camera phones are beginning to have GPS modifications that labels exactly where photos were taken, so any sexting shots gals take of themselves and put out in the public domain might allow others to know exactly what address (and with the help of google earth/google streetview, exactly what their house looks like) they were at when they flashed their intimate photos.
Im sure Homeland Security and the NSA will tell us that this is for our benefit and its to protect us (from people who shouldn't have been allowed to immigrate here in the first place), but they are bricks in the wall of the ever growing surveillance state.
From 'Big Brother Is Watching You' to 'Little Brother Is Tweeting You'. We are all little brothers.
"Today's Youth" or "Toodayz Yoof"?
Note to self: Do not leave electronic traces.
"Note to self: Do not leave electronic traces."
First of all, it's really hard to do that nowadays and it's getting harder every day.
Second, if you are the kind of person who is smart enought to avoid leaving traces, chances are you are not the kind of person who would kill his girlfriend and her parents for dumping you.
Whatever happened to smart criminals?
They can't all work for Goldman, Sachs.
I think it's possible to say that the criminal justice system may have had a eugenic effect from the 80s on.
There were an incredible number of people with low impulse control who spent their most sexually active years behind bars.
Better detection through electronic surveillance will probably only increase this effect.
The modern version of Romeo and Juliet
Clearly crime is down due to abortion. Just kidding, Steve.
Hindus are hard-core about forbidding intermarriage for their daughters. Not so much for their sons.
Although the motives in this case were rather plebeian, what I really want to know is how he talked two other individuals into taking an active part in this. Judging from their names it seems unlikely they had any personal interest in Hindu-Muslim rivalries. The ringleader must have a lot of charm and charisma, more than any three used car salesmen rolled up in one. I suppose a person can be persuasive without being terribly bright, maybe just being one step up from the level of the co-defendant chumps.
How about the young person of the 21st Century who would leave an obvious electronic trace of the crime would in an age previous done something equally stupid (that they might not do today) - like, leave a bloody knife, with finger prints, at the crime scene.
Getting away with a crime is a g-loaded test in whatever age it is committed.
Yes, perhaps getting away with crime is increasingly g-loaded so as the complexity of society in which the crime is committed increases. But that doesn't mean more stupid people are deterred, lowering the crime rate, and thus the only criminals are the smarter "chancers".
Are we actually to believe the murderer who remembers to carefully dispose of the knife (Sherlock Century) but then blabs to a friend on a mobile (NYPD Century) is really that much cleverer than his ancestor who left the knife and finger prints at the scene?
You once hypothesized that the increase in cell phones was responsible for some of the drop in street crime. I thought this was possible at first, but then doubted it. I could not see that a witness to a street crime with a cell phone was much more of a deterrent to a mugger than a witness without one, and I did not think a victim with a cell phone was much of a deterrent at all, as he would be preoccupied with the mugger. And you would think the police, who take reports of crimes, would have noticed an increase in cell-phone-based apprehensions and have notified us.
But this is a different theory: our criminals are so dumb, that they use all these new gadgets to incriminate themselves. It works, but only because our society has been held hostage for many years by extremely dumb criminals.
The ACLU had better get busy, and Miranda-ize cell phones and other digital devices, or we will start to become boringly civilized again.
"From 'Big Brother Is Watching You' to 'Little Brother Is Tweeting You'. We are all little brothers."
Big brother took early retirement (actually shoved out the door by his manager who had a gender quota to make, but anyhoo...) and was replaced by Big Sister. Except she's on course at the moment and has been temporarily replaced by Big Temp. Who in turn is on maternity leave and has been replaced by some chick who is on stress leave and...we're fucked, aren't we? If I'm the next Sergey Brin I'm seriously wondering if I want to move to Costa Rica or some such place to launch my company, we just can't compete anymore.
Youth crime? People who are quick to shriek havoc over our aging population when it comes to health care and pensions conveniently forget that an aging population means lower crime rates, ceteris paribus. The numbers I've seen suggest that violent youth crime, despite a modest trend downward, is still 3 times as high as it was in the early 1960s.
Well, many criminals aren't that swift to begin with, of course, which is nowhere near a new phenomenon. So this makes it easier to catch them.
I'm not expecting too much in changes in behavior for most of your generic, stupid criminals. It's just going to make repeat offenders less likely [to the extent they get jailed, and thus can't reoffend while in jail], and increase the conviction rate.
The most obvious reason why crime has declined is the Flynn Effect. Criminals tend to be stupid so as average intelligence goes up, there are fewer criminals around.
One problem today's youth face in living up to the high marks set by past generations at committing a high volume of crimes is that they are so addicted to electronic communications that they leave digital trails everywhere, making it hardly worth their while to break the law.
That applies to a working cop force.
In South Africa black youth are apparently hooked on cell phones. But the cops are too stupid and uneducated to deal with the data. All thanks to AA of course. In some cases white victims use private investigators to get all the data but then the prosecutor messes up. It’s still not clear whether all this incompetence is intentional or just the result of having the wrong government.
Good Evening Gentlemen:
Those amongst you who have been addicted to one thing or another are highly familiar with the concept of "bottoming out."
That is; one must got to his lowest point possible before turning it around and heading on the road to recovery.
With all of the incredible problems my caucasian brothers have today, I bring excellent news!
I believe white culture hit a bottoming out yesterday after 40,000 years. Now that your Nadir has been achieved, you can get back to your celestially appointed work of saving us mud peoples. EXCELSIOR!
After Vietnam we started saving a lot more lives in the emergency room.
Murder is the one crime for which we have reliable statistics. Other violent crime, not so much. Even if that weren't true, murder's what people pay attention to.
I know this is old news around here but I figure there's nothing wrong with repeating the obvious.
Grumpy Old Man: Whatever happened to smart criminals? They can't all work for Goldman, Sachs.
catperson: The most obvious reason why crime has declined is the Flynn Effect. Criminals tend to be stupid so as average intelligence goes up, there are fewer criminals around.
Grumpy Old Man is on the right track here - catperson is confusing "criminals" with "criminals who get caught and whose guilt is then publicized".
The smart ones get away with it, so much so that no one ever even realizes that a crime has been committed.
PS: One of the most fascinating things I ever learned in the iSteve comments was that advances in American Trauma Surgery [beginning during the Vietnam War] have radically reduced deaths by gunshot wound.
If it weren't for modern trauma surgery, then we'd have something like 100,000 GSW deaths each year.
See here for the BMJ article.
Compare also these iSteve posts: here, here, and here.
Murder is the one crime for which we have reliable statistics.
I wonder about even that.
How many of the people who go missing every year actually run away and resume life under new identities, and how many of them get murdered but have their corpses discretely disposed of?
The next thought might be a little too ghoulish for Komment Kontrol, but if you murdered someone, and dumped the corpse out in the middle of nowhere, and kept your mouth shut about it afterwards, then no one would ever know what had happened.
Heck, the DC PD mounted a massive manhunt for Chandra Levy in Rock Creek Park, and never found her - if that guy's dog hadn't chanced upon her remains, then her case would be unsolved to this day.
Hey, speaking of Chandra Levy, the Wikipedia article says that the trial is supposed to start on January 27, 2010.
If I'm the next Sergey Brin I'm seriously wondering if I want to move to Costa Rica or some such place to launch my company, we just can't compete anymore.
I live in Costa Rica and they have strict employees' rights laws; launch your startup in some former Soviet Bloc country.
After Vietnam we started saving a lot more lives in the emergency room.
Thank you Svigor, good to know that some of my posts from years gone by did not go unnoticed. Of course, all I did was point out the research.
Britain is a surveillance nation. And its crime rate is through the roof. Cameras are everywhere, and they capture ... images too vague to be of any use. Even when criminals are identified, it costs too much money (and fuss) to keep them in prison, so they are soon out.
Dialing the police on your cell phone is a sure way to get nailed in retaliatory violence, too. All those cell phone cameras are useless unless you have little fear of retaliation, and a police force both efficient and honest. In most places that is not the case.
Moreover, in LA County most cases (I believe over 50%) are not closed. Meaning the Police don't even charge someone or even know who did it. Someone drives by, shoots someone else, takes off. Little evidence (shaky eyewitness accounts, if that, bullets, maybe if lucky shell casings). No one wants to talk. Then there are the bodies dumped in the desert and mountains, that turn up with bullet holes in the remains, and end up Jane/John Does.
Judging from the LA Times Homicide Blog (which I think they closed a while back), successful murderers (they don't get caught) follow these rules:
1. Kill in a gang environment so no witnesses talk, and from a distance so the only physical evidence is a bullet fired from a disposable gun that is stripped into component parts, wiped clean of evidence, and dumped.
2. Bury the body in a remote location so that the remains, if ever uncovered, have no real evidence, including identity of the victim.
Likely 99% chance this little demonsh*t leader of the gang in the article gave a million red flag warning signs to everyone around him before the crime occurred.
I don't understand fathers like the one who ended up murdered. Father must have been obsessed with financial matters or his career ... and wasn't really paying attention to the boyfriend's red flag warning signs.
Also it's important to exercise your constitutional rights. I read the Orange County Register article and thought to myself that this is another family that doesn't believe in firearm ownership.
This nasty murder spree started as a home invasion. I think these thugs run around in liberal states like California with great confidence in their own safety during a home invasion. Meanwhile in other parts of the country there are essential zero home invasions taking place because of the high probability of getting your head blown off by a gun owner.
i might be ready to agree with the idea that a contributing factor to the decline in the murder rate, is simply due to improved medical care. lots of gunshot victims live today when they would have died in 1980.
this is kind of ironic, considering that the FBI has spent the last 20 years trying to make handguns MORE dangerous. around 1986, they were very unsatisfied with how effective handguns were at killing people, and started research into making them more deadly.
greatly improved medicine is one of the main reasons for such a low casualty rate in iraq and afghanistan. and prosthetics are so good that there is a segment of the amputee population who actually want to take their new artificial limbs and go back to serving.
Truth, that was hilarious.
Wait, maybe only more stupid criminals are being caught... the smart ones are still out there.
Is that plausible?
One important component of crime fighting is information gathering what if this component becomes orders of magnitude stronger?
Is think it's possible that technology will become a true "game changer" in the future of crime fighting.
I dont remeber wich author, Charles Stross or Stephen Baxter, but he predicted an information cloud that would be pretty good at recording every event of a persons life. And this kind of "total information system" would not be created by Big Brother but by the demands of a free market. So in this future the petty thug would have a real hard time doing crime.
Personaly I have hopes that we are approaching this stage of technology. The way younger generations use mobile phones to record events in their life suggests this.
I think 3 trends would need to be realised to reach a truly game changing event with regards to crime today.
Three strikes out need to be implemented as a standard component in law enforcement. Or better yet a kind of points system where upon aquiring enough points a criminal is the locked away for good in (a humane) prison.
Mobile phone technoloy need to be further developed for easy recording of events. This would require advances in recording and communications technology.
Further advances in other fields of information gathering such as DNA sampling.
/Albert
"Personaly I have hopes that we are approaching this stage of technology. "
Same here. The benefits would seem to vastly outweigh the costs. Burroughs once said of course that "A functioning police state needs no police." Much truth to that. We could actually start laying off cops if we got serious about crime.
We have become a low-trust society. Strangerland, I like to call it.
The term Police State is a bit of a misnomer in that the police in them are ultimately subservient to the dictator, or king, or whoever is running the show.
In my country, Canada, the police do not answer to *anybody* and are assaulting and murdering Canadian citizens left and right. The media is reluctant to criticize them and actually go out of their way to cover up for them partly out of fear but partly because of union solidarity. The politicians are terrified of them. Might come as a surprise to Americans but trust me our cops are way, way worse (ie more violent, more oppressive, more dickish) than American cops. Power corrupts, etc.
We often criticize the litigious nature of the USA but the threat of a lawsuit has saved countless Americans from an ass kicking or worse from the cops while we don't have that option here in Canada.
The cops in San Jose (I think) are pilot testing head mounted cameras that they must turn on when interacting with citizens. This is a huge breakthrough.
Anonymous said...If it weren't for modern trauma surgery, then we'd have something like 100,000 GSW deaths each year.
>>
Most of those people shot are involved in gangs/crime/drug trafficking. And their hospital care costs a fortune. During the Obamacare discussion, I heard some talk about how our system wastes too much money for the prolongation of life of the elderly, or that people who are obese or who smoke are less deserving of health care as they bear responsibility for their problems. Under that logic, doesn't it make even more sense that our system shouldn't waste money on the prolongation of life of anyone with a lengthy rap sheet?
I don't expect anyone to bring this up for debate, as it would have an appalling amount of disparate impact.
A little off-topic, but here's a strange story in the news:
Rahm Emanuel Warned Not To Make Son's Bar Mitzvah In Israel
Yechiel Spira
January 24, 2009
theyeshivaworld.com
Chevron activists Baruch Marzel and Itamar Ben-Givir, who also serve as parliamentary aides to MK (Ichud HaLeumi) Dr. Michael Ben-Ari, have sent a letter to White House Chief of Staff Rom Emanuel suggesting he celebrate his son's bar mitzvah elsewhere, not at the Kosel as reports indicate he plans to do...
Do you know anyone who has ever planned for a child's birthday party to take place in a foreign country?
For that matter, has any prominent presidential advisor ever planned to have a child's birthday party in a foreign country?
This is absolutely bizarre - it's behavior that's way, way outside my sphere of experience.
What's next? Barack arranges for Malia and Natasha to go home to Kenya for their ritual genital mutilations?
Now that your Nadir has been achieved ..
I feel gay from watching five seconds of that.
But I still blame black people, Truth. Don't you know that you gave us both rock and rap?
In the words of old time Boston ward boss, Martin Lomasney (known as the Mahatma)
"Never write when you can talk, never talk when you can nod."
I think he would have something to say about the use electronic devices.
Truth:
What IS YOUR PROBLEM buddy? I would really like to know.
Is the crime rate REALLY down? Who can say what the TRUE crime rate really is? An awful lot of crime is never reported and much of what is, is never solved. Look at rape for instance. Many women are too ashamed or humiliated to even report the crime. I would bet that the true crime rate here is double or triple the reported rate. For that matter imagine the male victim rape rates. The unreported number must be astronomically high. Who can say what the real murder rate is. How many "missing" people are in fact murder victims? Who knows how many people are buried in deserts, forests or the everglades. Anybody out there really believe Jimmy Hoffa is just "missing"? What about scams? Many people are simply too embarrassed to admit they were taken in by such con artists and don't tell anyone about it. The TRUE crime rate is vastly higher then the reported rates.
... The next thought might be a little too ghoulish for Komment Kontrol, but if you murdered someone, and dumped the corpse out in the middle of nowhere, and kept your mouth shut about it afterwards, then no one would ever know what had happened.
Steve, look out. That sounds like a threat.
Harry Baldwin asks a good question. Those questions will definitely be joined at the hip in future, as far as I'm concerned.
Anon, yeah, I should have said "reliable-ish." Relatively speaking, they are reliable; the other stats are Fairy Land by comparison.
Truth, would it shock you to learn that I've never referred to any one or group as "mud"? Not that I can recall anyway.
Maybe crime is down among youths because they are having so much fun on the internet--or addicted to it--that they have less time to go out to make trouble. Before internet, kids had to go out more to have fun. Milling about they naturally got into trouble. Today, they could be sitting in front a computer playing videogames or comment on Sailer site. I was gonna rob the bank the other day but I spent all my time at the Sailer site and missed my chance.
Britain is a surveillance nation. And its crime rate is through the roof. Cameras are everywhere, and they capture ... images too vague to be of any use. Even when criminals are identified, it costs too much money (and fuss) to keep them in prison, so they are soon out.
I think population density is one of the primary factors driving British crime. Too many people living in close proximity, and they start acting like the rats in those experiments.
That aside, wouldn't a higher crime rate be expected in a surveillance society, especially when they practice catch-and-release?
"Why is crime down among Today's Youth?"
They're too busy playing Grand Theft Auto to get up and go rob someone.
Video games, a vicarious yet interactive thrill, provide a functional replacement for criminally inclined youth.
Truth,you're an optimist;we havent reached anywhere near bottom yet! I dont know how this relates to the discussion,but I understand Tom Hanks is now Twittering. So I guess thats over,now.
Isn't Rahm Emmanuel Israeli born or at least his parents are from Israel? Maybe he wants to hold the Bar Mitzvah in Israel so his relatives can attend more easily. I don't think that makes Emmanuel any more sinister than he already is.
Interesting. No one has commented on the Hindu-Muslim angle.
Shame on this girl for dating a (1) a bad boy, one capable of murder at that! and (2) a Muslim.
She brought this onto her family.
"I was gonna rob the bank the other day but I spent all my time at the Sailer site and missed my chance."
You too huh....although these days the bank is robbing us...
"Why is crime down among Today's Youth?"
They're too busy playing Grand Theft Auto to get up and go rob someone.
Maybe virtual reality rape game will reduce instance of rape.
Maybe virtual reality revolution game will clear the streets of violent radicals.
On the other hand, virtual reality police game may reduce the number of kids who might join the real police force.
"Now that your Nadir has been achieved, you can get back to your celestially appointed work of saving us mud peoples."
Troof,
Save yourselves.
Regards, YT
OT:
Avatar" Replaces "Titanic" in Record Books.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=9650405
Hey Whiskey, I need a good laugh. Help me out.
"Wait, maybe only more stupid criminals are being caught... the smart ones are still out there."
Funny you should mention that. I have always had an interest in serial killers. It's just something I find fascinating.
Discussing this with a friend of mine, I observed that serial killers tend to be brighter than average criminals.
"Of course", he replied. "That's how they become SERIAL killers. The dumber ones get cause early."
I can see how that could happen.
Re: Bar Mitzvah in Isreal for Rahm Emanuel's son -- I too never have heard of having a child's birthday party in a foreign country. Does he consider Isreal "foreign"? Probably not.
Does Rahm hold dual citizenship?
Is crime or crime statistics down?
Read Disappearing Urban Crime article on vdare by Nicholas Stix, 5/26/04.
You'll see examples like these:
Police officers engage in creative writing, turning felonies into misdemeanors or non-crimes.
"De-policing": withdraw police from confrontations with criminals.
We should look for third-party evidence. This comes to mind: Insurance claims for property crime damage. Compare these with official crime stats.
Don't you guys think it would be bizarre if we Scots-Irish Orange Americans were to send our children home to Northern Ireland for their birthdays, baptisms, or confirmations? Or to the Hague?
Don't you think it would be bizarre if we Lutheran & Moravian/Hussite Americans were to send our children home to Germany or the Czech Republic for their birthdays, baptisms, or confirmations?
Don't you think it would be bizarre if we English Americans were to send our children home to Canterbury Cathedral for their birthdays, baptisms, or confirmations?
[I can't speak for the papists on this board, but I assume that they don't normally send their children to Vatican City for their birthdays, baptisms, or confirmations.]
This behavior is so out of the realm of the ordinary for the kinds of people who founded this country that, 225 years ago, it certainly would have been looked upon as sedition [if not treason].
Frankly, I am flabbergasted that the #2 official in the United States government would even contemplate such an act.
i'm not sure how prevalent lojack is, but this device makes it extremely difficult to get away with stealing a car. only experts who work for a chop shop operation can reliably boost cars now that lojack is around. mexicans get around lojack by simply driving the car into mexico, which is why arizona has the highest stolen car rate (also the highest kidnapping rate). but if you're not a mexican in a border state, stealing a car is a risky proposition now.
i'm also not sure to what extent concealed carry has mitigated violent crime, but it has to have had some effect. it has proliferated to almost every state. concealed carry is one of the main reasons that so many serial shooters go to "gun free" zones. they know they'll be the only one there with a gun.
perhaps you could say that concealed carry has primarily had the effect of channeling serial shooters into those "gun free" zones.
...cinematic Southern California crimes, complete with the kind of multi-culti bands of perps...
Attention diversity-doubters (lest you forget):
"Our diversity, not only in our Army, but in our country, is a strength. And as horrific as this tragedy was, if our diversity becomes a casualty, I think that’s worse," Casey said.
So no price is too high to pay for diversity. Just remember that.
A Bar Mitzvah is a bit more than a birthday party. It's a more formal occasion like an adult baptism or a wedding (except of course that nobody is getting married).
Gentiles have baptisms and weddings overseas all the time. Indeed, many Christians get baptized in Israel.
Which isn't to say that there is no problem with a senior executive in the US government who has dual citizenship. Still, I wonder if people would raise a stink if that official had dual citizenship with the UK or Italy for example.
the wobbly guy said
>maybe only more stupid criminals are being caught... the smart ones are still out there. Is that plausible?<
You got something there, wobbly. Wall Street and Washington DC are good places to look for them.
Here's a blast from the past. But they are pikers compared to today's banker boys. Of course even that modest tome was criticized in the usual way.
It's too easy and appealing for the authorities to monkey with crime statistics to depend on them for reliable info. The easiest way is to change a felony into a misdemeanor at the discretion of the cops/prosecutors.
The day that I returned to Washington D.C. in the early seventies, I was driving downtown and heard the police chief interviewed on the radio.
He was asked if the recent crime increase was the result of drugs. No, he said drug use was down sharply. The criminal kids today, he said, were motivated by tennis shoes. They killed you and stole your shoes.
I was a refugee from "The War on Poverty" (Johnson) and would soon fight in "The War on Cancer" (Nixon). Later the Reagan administration would fight a kind of " War on Drugs". But no "War on Tennis Shoes".
The social scientists give us the answers but the politicians fail to act.
"Does Rahm hold dual citizenship?"
Since he was an officer in the Isreali army, I would imagine so.
>an information cloud that would be pretty good at recording every event of a persons life. And this kind of "total information system" would not be created by Big Brother but by the demands of a free market. So in this future the petty thug would have a real hard time<
Political criminals would have a hard time, too.
"You have been ordered to appear before the court on a charge of First Class Racism. It has been determined through routine analysis that 88.68% of the persons whom you visit or speak with are of your own race. This is highly suspect behavior. The court will discuss why you have a criminally low number of other-race contacts. You may bring with you any other-race friends to testify in your behalf. However, all that you have done and said since the age of two years has already been processed, and the presumptive decision is Guilty. It is strongly recommended that do not enter a plea of Not-Guilty: we have incontrovertible evidence. The penalty is five years in a reeducation center, and lifetime probation. Do not try to flee. There are cameras every 4 yards. Hail Free Market! (Your judge shall be the Right Honorable Israel Rothstein; your court-assigned advocate will be Angela Davis.)"
If you think this is a joke, I think you're in for a bad surprise.
"Still, I wonder if people would raise a stink if that official had dual citizenship with the UK or Italy for example."
Well,*I* certainly would. Can you give any specific examples of officials with dual citizenship of U.S. and UK or Italy, for example?
L.A. Times Homicide blog is still up. It's right here:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/homicidereport/
I read it from time to time, but it's always the same. Blacks dead, Latinos dead, maybe a few others dead.
If you are a smart Latino, you could learn from it. Never "stand around" in your front yard, or on your front porch. You will die. Never go out after midnight. You will die.
The safest thing to do if you are Black or Latino is to get away from your own people. And of course, vice-versa if you're some other race.
"Don't you guys think it would be bizarre if we Scots-Irish Orange Americans were to send our children home to Northern Ireland for their birthdays, baptisms, or confirmations?"
I would think so. But then again, Ireland does not have the same religious significance for Christians that Israel has for Jews.
The Holy Land for Christians is basically the same as the Holy Land for Jews. And indeed, many Christians go to Israel to get baptized in the Jordan river.
Anonymous barrel of laughs said...
OT:
Avatar" Replaces "Titanic" in Record Books.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=9650405
Hey Whiskey, I need a good laugh. Help me out.
Yeah, Cameron will never eat lunch in Hollywood again...
Avatar" Replaces "Titanic" in Record Books.
They count this stuff in such silly ways through. It should be number of tickets sold, not dollars. WIth inflation, even a flop in twenty years will beat "Avatar".
At the very least they should use inflation adjusted dollars.
Steve, when are you going to comment on Ron Unz' cover-story about hispanic crime?
http://amconmag.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/
"Can you give any specific examples of officials with dual citizenship of U.S. and UK or Italy, for example?"
No, I haven't looked for any examples but I do think it's an interesting question. First however, there is a threshold question:
Is Rahm Emmanuel really a dual citizen? I did a few searches and I am starting to think it's just a rumor.
P.S. I do have a kind of example from a work of fiction. In "Legends of the Fall" there is an American character who enlists in the British military in order to fight in World War I. As I recall, he does it by sneaking into Canada and pretending to be Canadian. He later becomes a Congressman if I recall correctly.
Of course that's just a work of fiction, but still, it's interesting to wonder how people would react if something like that happened in real life.
I have a feeling that South Carolina Lt. Governor, Andre Bauer comments here.
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/01/south_carolinas_lt_governor_co.html
OT, Jensen & Rushton's review of Nisbett's book has been published.
http://bentham.org/open/topsyj/openaccess3.htm
P.S. I do have a kind of example from a work of fiction. In "Legends of the Fall" there is an American character who enlists in the British military in order to fight in World War I ... Of course that's just a work of fiction, but still, it's interesting to wonder how people would react if something like that happened in real life.
From 1939-1941, quite a few Americans went to Canada and Britain to fight the Germans. Google "Eagle Squadrons" to learn more. A couple of my mother's college classmates did this very thing.
I'm not sure how they were regarded at the time; overwhelmingly anti-Nazi sentiment among the American population probably protected them somewhat from accusations of disloyalty.
In hindsight, of course, they are generally regarded as heroes (although I'm sure there are a few WWII revisionists who think otherwise and will make themselves heard here, of all places).
"sabril said...
""Don't you guys think it would be bizarre if we Scots-Irish Orange Americans were to send our children home to Northern Ireland for their birthdays, baptisms, or confirmations?""
I would think so. But then again, Ireland does not have the same religious significance for Christians that Israel has for Jews.
The Holy Land for Christians is basically the same as the Holy Land for Jews. And indeed, many Christians go to Israel to get baptized in the Jordan river."
Is Rahm Emmanuel even a believer? Many non-believing jews still have their kids bar-mitzvahed. The religious rituals of judaism have become rituals of ethnic solidarity for many jews who are not religious. And clearly jewishness is an ethnic affiliation at least as much, if not more, than a religios one.
"sabril said...
Which isn't to say that there is no problem with a senior executive in the US government who has dual citizenship. Still, I wonder if people would raise a stink if that official had dual citizenship with the UK or Italy for example."
Until relatively recently, ten years ago or so, dual citizenship was illegal in this country. It should have stayed that way.
One thing I dont understand is
that thousands of American jews have served in the IDF and why is this dual loyalty allowed and why they have not served in the US army
And why has no one called them out on dual-loyalty / disloyalty
If this is allowed to go on, soon we may have American Iranians serving in the Iranian army using the same precedence
Attempts to compare apples to oranges, like comparing Jews to Brits and Italians, always come off sounding so hokey to me. They seem to depend so heavily on ignorance. But then, I don't know nearly as much about Italians as I do about Jews.
Educate me. Sites on the Italian Question? The British question?
Is Rahm Emmanuel really a dual citizen? I did a few searches and I am starting to think it's just a rumor.
This is a stupid question. Being jewish, Emmanuel automatically can obtain Israeli citizenship. So effectively he has dual citizenship.
"Is Rahm Emmanuel even a believer? Many non-believing jews still have their kids bar-mitzvahed. The religious rituals of judaism have become rituals of ethnic solidarity for many jews who are not religious. And clearly jewishness is an ethnic affiliation at least as much, if not more, than a religios one."
Only Rahm Emanuel knows for sure if he is a believer. Of course the ethnicity versus religion question is one which has been debated for a long time. Here's a quote from Rahm Emanuel's wiki article:
"Emanuel's wife, Amy Rule, converted to Judaism shortly before their wedding. They are members of Anshe Sholom B'nai Israel, a Modern Orthodox congregation in Chicago"
So it seems that for Rahm Emanuel, the relgious aspect of his Judaism may have been more important than the ethnic aspect.
Mr. Sailer writes a post about crime being down and the last twenty replies are about Jews and Israel? HUH?!
Mr. Anon: But then again, Ireland does not have the same religious significance for Christians that Israel has for Jews.
sabril: Instead of saying that Rahm Emanuel is suspect because he is (or might be) a dual citizen, just say that he is suspect because he is a Jew.
Is there any side of an argument you people won't adopt?
On the one hand, Israel is special, unlike other nations, but, on the other hand, we aren't supposed to notice Israel's unique speciality [which is, again, unlike any other nation's]?
You people really need to learn to shut your mouths while you're still ahead.
I think it is legit to ask why Rahm served in IDF and not in US army
"Steve, when are you going to comment on Ron Unz' cover-story about hispanic crime?
http://amconmag.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/"
Steve won't talk about how stories of Hispanic crime are overblown.
He is committed to spreading the Vdare propaganda that Mexicans are only here to rape white women and kill white men.
He only cares about the truth when it benefits his cause.
>if Jews are apples and Italians are oranges, then the dual citizenship issue is a bit of a red herring<
Now you're just making everyone hungry.
Israeli citizenship? That's for pikers. I've known at least three US citizens who, on the sole strength of a single grandparent born in Ireland, hold Irish passports just so that they can be eligible to work *anywhere* in the EU. And, if as rumored to be likely in this decade, Ireland rejoins the Commonwealth, that opens up job opportunities in a lot of other countries around the globe.
Also, around the time Bill Clinton left office, some French pundits jokingly suggested he might run for President of France--and in response one legal scholar suggested he might even be eligible! Apparently there is a serious case to be made that natives of all French colonies or former colonies can claim French (and thus EU) citizenship. Bill was a native of Arkansas, formerly part of the Louisiana Territory.
Taken to its extreme, this would allow native-born people of nearly a dozen US states to be eligible: all the states formed from the Louisiana Purchase, as well as the "Old Northwest" that was part of Nouvelle-France prior to 1763.
"But if they think Jews are a people who should be held to a different standard, they should have the intellectual courage to just come out and say it, at least on the internet."
See, that's not it.
That's why I ask, tell me who are the Italians and Brits who are dual citizens who are holding high gov't officialships? I want to know so I can hold them in contempt, also.
But you can't tell me of any. So I don't know of any. So that tells me there AREN'T any.
So that says to me that *Jews* are the ones holding Jews to a different standard -- i.e., the difference being that dual citizenship for Jews, which, in fact, happens, is okay, somehow. You ought to be holding them in contempt with me, rather than sort of trying to distract attention from them by asking, why don't people complain about the Italians and Brit dual citizens, when there aren't any.
From Jewcy: An article about a Jewish young man, born in America, who enlisted in the U.S. Army, but his relatives were shocked and wanted to know why on earth he would do such a thing? Why if he's going to enlist in an army would he not enlist in IDF, for goodness' sake?
Quote:
"More interesting than his parent’s bewilderment was his community’s reaction. Many asked him, “Why don’t you join the Israeli army?” His response was blunt and to the point. “Because I am not an Israeli!” That is, his desire for doing service was to pay back the gifts he had received growing up in America. While he defined himself as a Zionist, Israel had given him nothing like that - how could it? His questioners nodded but did not really understand. If he had said he was joining the Israeli army he would have been viewed with pride, perhaps even been honored at his local synagogue before his departure. With his present aspirations, he was at best a curiosity, at worst, an anomaly"
http://www.jewcy.com/post/dual_allegiance
sabril sez: But if they think Jews are a people who should be held to a different standard ...
Obviously you are partial on this issue, but to take up your argument: Jews are forever criticizing European countries for their alleged "anti-semitism" even though they are living well there. Yet any criticism of Israel w.r.t. how it treats is neighbors, which is gross by most of the world’s standards, is immediately rejected as anti-semitism so that the argument gets killed. So who is holding whom to a different standard?
When will people realize that "Box office growth" is not the same as "studio profit." Whiskey has a point in this regard. Box office receipts is like basing a financial opinion on ticket sales. It is meaningless.
Consider what is recently happening regarding the Spider-Man 4. The first three movies have netted $2.5 billion at the box office. The production budgets for all three movies is roughly $600 million. According to these numbers, the "profit" should be $1.9 billion.
Yet, Sony is replacing Toby Maguire and Sam Raimi. Why? Why would you replace key people that have proven to generate almost $2 billion in profit?
Maybe because $1.9 billion is not the actual profit.
Let's apply whiskeys formula to Spider-Man 3.
Domestic box office was $336 million.
Opening weekend was $151 million.
According to whiskey, the studio keeps 75% of the box office gross. That would be roughly $105 million.
Subtract the opening box office from the total domestic gross and you have about $180 million dollars left in domestic.
Out of $180 million, studios keep 50%, according to whiskey, or $90 million.
So the total studio take for domestic Spider-Man 3 is $240 million.
Okay, what about foreign?
Foreign box office is $554 million. According to whiskey, studios keep roughly 30-40% of the gross. That is roughly $250 million.
So, the studio take is 240 million plus 250 million = $490 million. Then you have dvd sales.
Assuming Spiderman 3's reported production budget is accurate, that movie netted Sony 490 minus 240 a $250 million dollar profit from box office alone.
I suspect the reported budget numbers not to be accurate, however, and that this profit is probably much less, maybe a $100 million less if you include marketing.
"On the one hand, Israel is special, unlike other nations,
but, on the other hand, we aren't supposed to notice Israel's unique speciality [which is, again, unlike any other nation's]?"
Special in exactly what way?
"That's why I ask, tell me who are the Italians and Brits who are dual citizens who are holding high gov't officialships? I want to know so I can hold them in contempt, also."
Also? As noted above, there is a threshold question here: Is Rahm Emmanuel a dual citizen or not?
"You ought to be holding them in contempt with me"
I'm not sure that "contempt" is the right word, but I would definitely agree with you if your point is that senior American officials should not be dual citizens with any country.
"Why if he's going to enlist in an army would he not enlist in IDF, for goodness' sake?"
I don't have a problem with ordinary Americans serving as enlisted men in foreign armies of countries allied with the United States.
It's more of a problem if the person seeks high office.
"Jews are forever criticizing European countries for their alleged 'anti-semitism' even though they are living well there."
Would you mind giving a few examples of this?
"Yet any criticism of Israel w.r.t. how it treats is neighbors, which is gross by most of the world’s standards, is immediately rejected as anti-semitism so that the argument gets killed."
Again, would you mind giving a few examples to put this into context?
"Steve, when are you going to comment on Ron Unz' cover-story about hispanic crime?
http://amconmag.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/"
Ron Unz falls prey to the misconception that "Hispanic" is somehow a single ethnic group with uniform characteristics. Hispanic is in fact a garbage can classification including fully assimilated 5th generation Americans of majority European ancestry and Mixtec Indians who walked over the border last year. To someone who lives in the East Bay it's clear that the new Hispanic arrivals -- heavily Amerindian -- are a big problem, and this is also the group with the highest birth rate, school drop out rate, and crime rate. Ron glosses over the high Hispanic murder rate by adjusting it for mean age, but since blacks commit the majority of murders in the US, the actuarial chart showing probability of committing murder vs age doesn't apply to whites (or to any one group for that matter), and will artificially depress the Hispanic murder rate. Actually, I'm surprised a sharp guy like Ron would make such an error, but he is clearly an immigration romanticist; otherwise, he wouldn't have pushed so hard to abolish bilingual education in California and elsewhere. What he fails to notice is that only one immigrant group has shown a tendency to stay trapped for generations in a linguistic underclass ghetto.
http://www.pjvoice.com/v14/14207idf.html
Joining The IDF
What's an American teenager like me doing signing up to the Israel army?
-- Yeshia Braverman
I'm on the bus looking out the window, passing miles and miles of desert sand. I have been in Israel for a little over nine months and I recently decided to join the few and proud and go to the Israeli army. My decision to join the army was not particularly hard (I've always wanted an M-16), but the choice of the Israeli army over the American was one that had me -- a 19-year-old American from Los Angeles studying in Israel -- thinking and debating for months.
But why the Israeli army? Aren't you American? " I have asked myself that question many times. I have always wanted to go to the American army; my entire life I have felt a sense of patriotism to America. It has hosted the Jews for so many years and has treated us with respect. I always thought that I should give a little back.
So I asked myself the famous question, "Am I an American Jew, or a Jewish American? Which comes first?"
I realized that my family has been Jewish a lot longer than they have been American (especially my mom, she's Canadian). My true patriotism should lie in my home country, and looking back far enough, that's Israel. It's my home and it's the home of all the Jews.
A friend of mine, we are British, has dual British/US citizenship. American mother, British father.
I remember when he was in his teens him saying that he would have decide when he was 18 whether to be British or American since he couldnt have both, and if he chose American - register for the draft. However by the time he turned 18 (in 1982)the US rules had changed, he's carried both passports ever since. He says Carter changed the rules, is that true?
PS He did register for the draft btw if anyone is wondering about divided loyalties.
PPS Britain has long allowed dual nationality.
an American character who enlists in the British military in order to fight in World War I. As I recall, he does it by sneaking into Canada and pretending to be Canadian.
I believe that was a common path in WW2 as well. Many members of those aforementioned Eagle squadrons were posing as Canadians. A blind eye was turned to this by the US, Canada and Britain.
One often hears about the Eagle pilots but I presume some others must have gone into the army and navy.
Quick demolition of Unz by Jason Richwine of AEI:
http://blog.american.com/?p=7428
(…)
Hispanic immigrants are institutionalized (usually that means in prison) at only about half the rate of white natives, but Hispanic natives are in institutions at about three times the white rate. As I said, this is the “conventional” view of immigration and crime supported by most academics.
(…)
increased crime in the second generation is consistent with an increase in several other underclass behaviors. As the chart above indicates, labor force dropout, illegitimacy, and welfare usage are all much higher among Hispanic natives than among Hispanic immigrants. (Those data come from reliable interviews of normal people outside of prison.) It makes sense that crime would increase if all of those other underclass problems are increasing as well.
(...)
So, the children of immigrants assimilate to underclass norms. I can see no way to prevent this without a miraculous reconstruction of the shame-based WASP-dominant culture of the US that started falling apart beginning with the Sixties Cultural Revolution in 1965.
"So, the children of immigrants assimilate to underclass norms"
Should be Hispanic immigrants.
Dual citizenship can be granted automatically, sometimes. Some countries (Iran, Morocco, South Korea, among others) regard all children of native-born citizens to be citizens of their country. I once had a neighbor from Iran who would never take his son back to visit relatives, in the fear that he might end up drafted there.
My true patriotism should lie in my home country, and looking back far enough, that's Israel. It's my home and it's the home of all the Jews.
So what do the Jews on this board say to that? Agree? Disagree?
>I realized that my family has been Jewish a lot longer than they have been American (especially my mom, she's Canadian). My true patriotism should lie in my home country, and looking back far enough, that's Israel. It's my home and it's the home of all the Jews.<
Only an anti-semite would question the loyalty of any Americans who happen to be of the Jewish persuasion. Stanley Kramer or someone told me so in a 1950s movie.
sabril said
>gimme examples, examples, examples< (paraphrasing)
Heh. The same old shtick from sabril!
Okay, okay, it's a reasonable question.
>"Jews are forever criticizing European countries for their alleged 'anti-semitism' even though they are living well there." Would you mind giving a few examples of this?<
Here. Here. Here. Here. These are the result of 30 seconds of Googling. They can be multiplied almost ad infinitum.
>"Yet any criticism of Israel w.r.t. how it treats is neighbors, which is gross by most of the world’s standards, is immediately rejected as anti-semitism so that the argument gets killed." Again, would you mind giving a few examples to put this into context?<
Jimmy Carter. Walt and Mearsheimer. Is that enough context?
Anonymous said
>Mr. Sailer writes a post about crime being down and the last twenty replies are about Jews and Israel? HUH?!<
It all started when someone mentioned criminals and the harm they cause nationally - which led to Goldman Sachs - which is in bed with the Fedgov (or vice-versa) - a principle member of which is Rahm the Dual Citizen. Holy hell, stay on topic, you people! (joking)
"Also? As noted above, there is a threshold question here: Is Rahm Emmanuel a dual citizen or not?"
No. You're trying to misdirect attention again. Rahm Emmanuel's particular, actual, technical status is not that germane to my larger concerns because he is not the only possible Jewish/American dual-citizen in high U.S. gov't office:
There are many.
Known Israeli-American dual citizens who have held high U.S. gov't officialships within recent memory:
Michael Chertoff, Secretary of DHS
Richard Perle, foreign policy advisor
Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Defense Secretary
There are many more.
Give me one, just one, name of an Italian or U.K. dual citizen in a high U.S. gov't position. I need it, badly, because I don't want to come to the conclusion for which the evidence is mounting.
"don't have a problem with ordinary Americans serving as enlisted men in foreign armies of countries allied with the United States."
I do. Because, to quote a famous phrase, "Nations have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies. Only permanent interests."
A guy who's made buddies in and impressed the commanders of a foreign army makes for an excellent potential recruit as a spy against U.S. when the inevitable conflict arises between
U.S. and a former ally.
"So what do the Jews on this board say to that? Agree? Disagree?"
If a Jewish-American feels this way, then at a minimum, he has no business holding any kind of office of trust in the United States government.
"These are the result of 30 seconds of Googling. They can be multiplied almost ad infinitum."
Ok, I looked at your first example, which says that there is a lot of anti-semitism in France as evidenced by various attacks on Jews.
Another one of your links links to articles which contain suggestions that Jimmy Carter's criticisms of Israel may be informed by anti-semitism.
"Is that enough context?"
Well, I'm not sure I see the contradiction. Surely there does exist anti-semitism in France. And certainly many of those who criticize Israel have views informed by anti-semitism.
For example, it's hard to believe that David Duke really cares about Syrians all that much. (I don't know enough about Carter on this point.)
I'm not seeing the contradiction you are trying to point out.
"No. You're trying to misdirect attention again. Rahm Emmanuel's particular, actual, technical status is not that germane to my larger concerns "
I'm not trying to misdirect at all. I was specifically talking about Rahm Emanuel. If you want to broaden the issue, that's fine.
Anyway, I didn't see anything in Chertoff's wiki article saying he's a dual citizen. Are there any reputable sources which say so?
"Give me one, just one, name of an Italian or U.K. dual citizen in a high U.S. gov't position."
I have no idea if any such people exists or existed and I am not claiming that they do. Actually, I have no idea if any dual citizens with Israel hold or have held high office in America.
Until a day or two ago, I was under the impression that Rahm Emanuel was a dual citizen, but now it seems that's just a rumor.
I am an immigration restrictionist and post on various blogs where this is an item of interest. A couple of years ago I was posting on a policy wonk blog located in Virginia. I took the stance that illegal aliens should be smoked out via enforcement such as E-Verify and basically sent home.
I had several take me to task and I held my own. One guy said that the cost of enforcement outweighed the benefits, etc. The usual stew.
Later this same person opined that what he planned to do was to live in the US and make his money here and then retire to "a better country". I had thought that this would prompt a few thoughts that this wasn't an option that most people had and that trashing a country and then leaving was unacceptable etc but I was wrong.
What it prompted was several replies from regulars that they had already nailed down dual citizenship for themselves and their families and were ready "if it was needed". One guy who made light of my concerns about illegal alien amnesty noted that "when 51% of the population elect a demi-god" to solve their problems, he wanted a means to escape with the - and I'd guess as a result of - money he had made here in the US. Needless to say that "demi-god" could very well be the result of low-income/education "citizens" from the third world - people whom he supported being allow en mass into the US - voting their economic interests.
I find this appalling. You deliberately set into motion devices that will destabilize the US while simultaneously planning your escape, knowing that most US citizens will not have that option.
As a result of "family reunification" AKA chain migration, people with next to no ties and history in the US have more say about who is let in than most of us who can trace our ancestors and contributions back centuries. This is a recipe for disaster.
"Anyway, I didn't see anything in Chertoff's wiki article saying he's a dual citizen. Are there any reputable sources which say so?"
Would a synagogue be a sufficiently reputable source for you?
From the website of the synagogue in Buffalo, NY:
http://jbuff.com/index.html
http://jbuff.com/c090805.htm
Biography of Michael Chertoff
quote:
"He has the additional merit of being an observant Jew who also is a dual citizen of the United States and Israel. All of these qualifications make him an excellent candidate for a seat on the U.S. Supreme Court. Since President Bush knows him well and appointed him to his present position, it is to be hoped that Michael Chertoff will be given the nomination. He will surely be confirmed by the Senate as he is confirmed by us."
I see on wikipedia and in this article by Center for Immigration Studies http://www.cis.org/DualCitizenship-Reform where Rahm was accused by a political opponent of being a dual citizen. I do NOT see any mention on wikipedia where Rahm disavowed being a dual citizen. Wikipedia notes carefully that Rahm was only a civilian volunteer in IDF, not a soldier, but makes no mention of whether Rahm confirmed or denied the charge of dual citizenship.
Therefore, in my opinion, the possibility that Rahm is a dual citizen is still an good question.
"sabril said...
I don't have a problem with ordinary Americans serving as enlisted men in foreign armies of countries allied with the United States."
So it would be okay if they had served in the Red Army during WWII?
By the way, another American mover and shaker who served in the IDF (both army and airforce) was Mark Helprin, novelist, "conservative" commentator, and former political advisor to Bob Dole.
Binyamin Netanyahu has dual citizenship (Q: Which one?). Not that this topic is ever reported in US 'media'.
'Dual citizenship can be granted automatically, sometimes.'
A couple of friends of mine were eligible for Italian citizenship through paternal line although their respective families immmigrated to Brazil 100-150 years ago. Dual citizens now, Italy(EU)/Brazil.
Jure Sanguinis.
"Would a synagogue be a sufficiently reputable source for you?"
Not alone, but it's a start. I had in mind something more like CNN.
"I do NOT see any mention on wikipedia where Rahm disavowed being a dual citizen. "
Yes, I noticed the same thing. I concede the possibility that Rahm really is a dual citizen.
And I do think that IF Rahm is a dual citizen, he has no business occupying a position of trust in the U.S. Government.
"So it would be okay if they had served in the Red Army during WWII?"
Yes, it's ok with me. Would it surprise you to learn that there were many Americans serving in the Chinese military during World War II?
Sabril,
given that there is a current shortage of men in the US army which is being stretched thin, is it OK for 5000 American jews to be serving in the IDF instead of the US army
"sabril said...
""So it would be okay if they had served in the Red Army during WWII?""
Yes, it's ok with me."
So, it's okay for U.S. citizens to sign up to fight for Joe Stalin. Ok. Now I know better how to evaluate your opinions. Would it have been okay for americans to fight for nazi germany before December 1941?
"They count this stuff in such silly ways through. It should be number of tickets sold, not dollars. WIth inflation, even a flop in twenty years will beat "Avatar".
At the very least they should use inflation adjusted dollars."
I think you may be overestimating future inflation, but you aren't wrong about inflation adjusted gross being most important. If my memory serves me well (and I'm sure it does) the highest grossing film ever (after factoring in inflation) was Gone with the Wind.
http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm
I believe this is based solely upon the domestic gross in the United States. Gone with the Winds worldwide inflation adjusted gross is something like 3 billion dollars.
At the time of this list being compiled Avatar was at 26 with a gross of $561,317,325, but it's probably moved up the chart by now.
Rahm doesnt need an Israeli passport as such. He may never have been issued that specific piece of paper and card. But he can take up Israeli citizenship any time he wants, its less than a formality.
So, for all intents and purposes, he should be regarded as a dual national.
"Sabril,
given that there is a current shortage of men in the US army which is being stretched thin, is it OK for 5000 American jews to be serving in the IDF instead of the US army"
Yes I think so. There are lots of American men of military age doing stuff besides serving in the military.
"Would it have been okay for americans to fight for nazi germany before December 1941?"
No, I don't think that's ok. Anyway, you never answered my question.
Would it surprise you to learn that there were many Americans serving in the Chinese military during World War II?
The key phrase in the comments of the kid musing about joining the Israeli as opposed to American military is America "hosting the Jews". That seems to be the way Jews view themselves in every country they wind up in, no matter how long they live there - as guests, tolerated to varying degrees by willing or unwilling hosts. Being a Jew seems to takes precedence over identification with any country, other than Israel.
However, if they truly feel they are guests, then they shouldn't be surprised that the hosts get pissed off at their aggressive attempts to take over said host's government, financial institutions and opinion influencing media concerns.
"Being a Jew seems to takes precedence over identification with any country, other than Israel."
Not every Jew feels this way, especially in the United States. However, if a Jew does feel this way then obviously it would be inappropriate for him or her to hold high office or other position of trust.
"However, if they truly feel they are guests, then they shouldn't be surprised that the hosts get pissed off at their aggressive attempts to take over said host's government, financial institutions and opinion influencing media concerns."
The problem with this statement is that you are talking as if all Jews basically feel the same way. Many Jews in finance are just trying to make a buck.
Anyway, in a free country, it's not really appropriate to stop people from gaining power (in the private sector) because of suspected disloyalty.
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