Steve Sailer: iSteve: VP Debate open thread

October 11, 2012

VP Debate open thread

You watch it so I don't have to ...

93 comments:

Sojourner said...: Biden decided to go full blown opposite of Obama and just coming across like an old fart who wants to yell down anything he doesn't agree with. Not sure how it'll come across to the people but it's pretty balant what he's trying to do. The hope is that he gets really riled up and says another stupid remark.; 10/11/12, 6:55 PM
Anonymous said...: Ever so slightly off-topic, but do you remember the Obamaphone lady in Cleveland?

Well guess who is profiting from that scam?

Mexican billionaire making millions from American government program that gives poor free cell phones
By Daily Mail Reporter
10 October 2012
dailymail.co.uk

I don't know much about the history of the late 19th century and Theodore Roosevelt's decision to bust the trusts, but I just can't imagine that a Leland Stanford or a John D Rockerfeller could hold a candle to these guys - has the USA ever before been even remotely so corrupt?; 10/11/12, 7:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Biden: Smirking, condescending, belligerent. Constantly interrupting. A bit of a jerk. The worst kind of Irish-Catholic stereotype.

Ryan: Composed, cool, competent. Too abstract with numbers at times.; 10/11/12, 7:16 PM
Anonymous said...: I couldn’t watch, so I turned it off. Why expect two men who are representatives of the same crooked and failing elite system to offer much? For all practical purposes, we aren’t citizens of the same country.; 10/11/12, 7:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Biden won but only marginally so.; 10/11/12, 7:59 PM
Anonymous said...: Biden won because he came across as the Alpha male. Ryan was interrupted but he didn't respond in kind. Biden kept defining the 47 percent as his mom and dad and his son in the military - that was smart. Ryan refused to define the 47 percent as 3rd generation welfare recipients, illegal immigrants, prisoners, etc. Because of the republican self-imposed rule against doing so.

Foreign policy was a wash because it came down to minutiae, since both sides have such similar views.

Ryan should have at least said that if the rich love us so much, why do they vote for you.; 10/11/12, 8:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Biden won but I don't think there will be a significant bump because he was very disrespectful and distracting during the debate.

The Democrat base might regain a little bit of enthusiasm from this though.; 10/11/12, 8:24 PM
Auntie Analogue said...: Moderator Martha Raddatz, like all of her Media-Pravda Politburocrats, prefaced one of her questions with the notion that the number one concern of Americans is jobs. I disagree: the number one concern of Americans is massive immigration, because shutting, fortifying, and defending our southern border, and slapping a moratorium on legal immigration, would almost entirely evaporate the concern about jobs by opening up positions that are now gobbled up by the foreigners to whom the administration hands out 100,00 work permits every month.

Biden was his usual smug, rudely interrupting, talk-over-the-other-guy self. Ryan was steady, mostly on the defensive to Biden's hair-trigger aggressivenes, but did not lose his cool, and counter-punched with reasonable effectiveness. Ryan's chief problem was failing to tell (as Romney himself has failed to tell) how, exactly, the Republican ticket's cut debt & deficit plan to "close the loopholes" numbers are supposed to add up.

Both men's positions on Afghanistan and "terrorism" proceed from the same "No See Islam" blindess of the American/Western elite; so that both men's positions are, from the get-go, absurd and, if you think about it, criminally negligent. (I followed Andrew Sullivan's Dem-rooting live-blogging in which Sullivan pointed out that both men's essentially neocon position on Afghanistan made the live audience response dial-ins plunge.)

Both men recited the usual pieties toward our armed forces' personnel and toward the middle class.

Early in the contest Ryan missed a golden opportunity to slam Biden. Biden said that it doesn't matter if Iran gets a nuke because Iran doesn't have "weapon" to put it in. Ryan ought to have pointed out that the nuke is the weapon and the method of putting it on a target is a delivery system, and then should have asked Biden: "Did the 9-11 jihadists need a delivery system?" Also, Ryan ought to have pointed out that Iran does, in fact, have missiles that can deliver a nuke on Israel or on the U.S. naval task forces that keep the Strait of Hormuz open, or even on one of the big regional U.S. logistic bases in, for example, Uzbekistan just north of Afghanistan.

In all, I feel the debate was a draw, precisely because the two men are the veep candidates, not the main contenders. It's doubtful that one or the other of these two men changed the minds of independent voters.; 10/11/12, 8:24 PM
Anonymous said...: I think Ryan did better, but not enough to change anything. I was quite irritated by Biden's constant grinning and eye rolling -- it was too much, and came across as unserious. I also think Biden missed some opportunities, and stepped on the moderator's lines a couple of times when she was actually helping him out.; 10/11/12, 8:28 PM
Baloo said...: I listened without watching, and had the impression it was a draw. My wife watched, and she said Biden's smirking and all made him look bad. So from that, we'd give it to Ryan. And even at his best, Biden looks like
this guy.; 10/11/12, 8:48 PM
Anonymous said...: I admit that I switched off early, but I wouldn’t call endlessly repeating talking points a debate. What’s to debate, anyway? They both love Bibi, affirmative action will continue, as will immigration, and average Americans will continue to be invisible. Nothing substantial was mentioned.; 10/11/12, 8:49 PM
beowulf said...: Biden won because he came across as the Alpha male. Ryan was interrupted but he didn't respond in kind.

Exactly, its what Josh Marshall calls the bitch slap theory of politics. If someone hits you and you don't hit back, you look like a prison bitch.

Bill Maher (who twittered last week maybe Obama really does need a teleprompter) had another great line:
Hello 9 1 1? There s an old man beating a child on my tv; 10/11/12, 8:51 PM
Anonymous said...: I am so embarassed that people from other countries saw the Vice-President of the U.S. act like a child misbehaving in the worst way. I think his mother is still living....she apparently failed to teach him how to act in public.; 10/11/12, 8:53 PM
Anonymous said...: I would guess that Obama is looking closely at how Biden's performance is viewed, since he claimed that he was too polite against Romney. I'm not sure that Erkel can pull off Biden's act. If he can, I wouldn't suggest doing so.; 10/11/12, 9:14 PM
Truth said...: "Biden decided to go full blown opposite of Obama and just coming across like an old fart who wants to yell down anything he doesn't agree with."

"Biden:... condescending, belligerent. Constantly interrupting. A bit of a jerk."

"Biden was his usual smug, rudely interrupting, talk-over-the-other-guy self."

But wait, I'm confused; wasn't that what Mittler did in his "brilliant" performance last week?; 10/11/12, 9:18 PM
JeremiahJohnbalaya said...: Bill Maher (who twittered last week maybe Obama really does need a teleprompter) had another great line:
Hello 9 1 1? There s an old man beating a child on my tv
Maher admitted that Biden was acting like a child? Weird.; 10/11/12, 9:19 PM
Dahlia said...: Biden's performance was an over correction to Obama's. I have never seen such open hostility and rudeness from one debater toward another in my life. Rick Santorum could be a jerk, but Biden turned it up to eleven. It was worse than Al Gore's sighs.

Biden's performance was done only for the benefit of the Left. They were pretty explicit about this before the debate. Ryan was aiming for the undecideds.; 10/11/12, 9:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Biden decided to appeal to the "Obnoxious Dickhead" segment of the electorate. And did a darn fine job at it, I must say.

Of course those people are interchangeable with the Dem base, so they'll be happy. I suspect most undecided voters will be turned off though.; 10/11/12, 9:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Biden won because he came across as the Alpha male.

Hello, Whiskey!; 10/11/12, 9:23 PM
Anonymous said...: I also think Biden missed some opportunities, and stepped on the moderator's lines a couple of times when she was actually helping him out.

The "moderator" made zero pretense of doing anything other than trying to help Biden. She made no attempt to stop Biden's constant interrupting. She herself frequently interrupted Ryan when he was trying to make a point.

Why do Republicans always agree to these debates run by hard-core Democratic party partisans?; 10/11/12, 9:27 PM
Anonymous said...: Biden: Smirking, condescending, belligerent. Constantly interrupting. A bit of a jerk. The worst kind of Irish-Catholic stereotype.

Ryan: Composed, cool, competent. Too abstract with numbers at times.

Ryan is at least as Irish Catholic as Biden is.; 10/11/12, 9:30 PM
Anonymous said...: He threw State and intel under the bus--will be interesting to see if that bites Obama. You have the admin, State, and intel all gunning for each other on the Libya mess.

Wouldn't a not-so-bright teen know that security had to be tight in Libya? How the hell hard can that be. It's almost as if "we" (meaning State, or the Oval, or CIA, or all three) wanted him knocked out.; 10/11/12, 9:34 PM
Anonymous said...: Maher doesn't seem to understand that an undecided voter won't like Biden's behavior.; 10/11/12, 9:34 PM
Anonymous said...: After watching the presidential and the vp debate, I think I understand the Romney/Ryan plan for the economy: reforms and growth. Seems like it should be pretty effective.; 10/11/12, 9:35 PM
Anonymous said...: I would be interested to see how Biden's performance played out to women. My inclination is that his over the top antics are off putting, and make Ryan seem more sympathetic.; 10/11/12, 9:35 PM
Anonymous said...: On defining the 47%:
Ryan should have said 15% of the country is on Medicare and .5% is in the military, let's both agree to take care of them, but who are the other 31.5%? Paraplegics?

A good dog whistle while still dodging speech code violations.; 10/11/12, 9:41 PM
DaveinHackensack said...: "Biden decided to go full blown opposite of Obama..."

Indeed, but he may have overcompensated. I thought Biden had won, but the post-debate polls -- CNN, CNBC, AP, etc. -- all have Ryan winning. Judging by the reax of liberals I follow on Twitter, Biden did at least rally his base.

The foreign policy parts of the debate exemplified Steve's point about how GOP candidates are handicapped by their 1980 mentality. Back in 1980, the US was considered weak around the world, in the wake of the hostage fiasco in Iran (Carter should have asked Congress for a declaration of war the day after our embassy was invaded). So it made sense for Republicans to be for strong defense, to be respected abroad, etc.

But we've been on a military spending binge since the Reagan administration, and today's Dems are more hawkish that Reagan was. So Ryan warning about "drastic cuts" to Defense falls flat, and the GOP's need to out-hawk the Dems prevents them from asking the logical question about Afghanistan: what magic will occur between now and the scheduled transition in 2014? We've been there 11 years, and it's obvious Afghanistan will go back to being the Haiti of Central Asia once we leave. So why not leave now?; 10/11/12, 9:58 PM
Dahlia said...: Everyone is happy with this debate: Democrats got someone to go after the "lying liars", and the Republicans look better to the undecideds.

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/023525.html

Everything Lawrence says about Ryan here, I agree with: Ryan is intelligent, but callow at times, especially on foreign policy.

The instapolls, including a scientific one by CNN, are mostly saying Ryan won, but it isn't as lopsided as Romney's win. Frank Luntz's group was notable tonight in that not a single person was moved to back one ticket or the other. Last week resulted in a large shift (toward Romney).

FWIW, Paul Ryan Shirtless was #3 or #4 google search after the debate.

I hope, Steve, you watch the next one. The period following the last one was really your moment. In the time Obama has been on the nation's radar, nobody was more interested in how he thinks or just who he is, than after the last debate. There was so much honest soul searching among the smarter members of the Left. Nobody understands him better, and it would have added more to the conversation if you had watched the debate. I know, not easy.; 10/11/12, 10:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Biden won because he came across as the Alpha male.

If "Alpha males" act like bratty girls, sure he did.; 10/11/12, 10:10 PM
Anonymous said...: "Biden was his usual smug, rudely interrupting, talk-over-the-other-guy self."

But wait, I'm confused; wasn't that what Mittler did in his "brilliant" performance last week?

Yes, Troot, you're confused. No Troot, Romney did not interrupt or talk over Obama in the other debate.

Remember, everyone, Troot is an undecided moderate voter!; 10/11/12, 10:14 PM
Mr. Anon said...: I think Biden nailed it with his sweeping oratory. I especially liked it when he said "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" and "It is not the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning".; 10/11/12, 10:14 PM
Piper said...: Biden is now the designated Negro of the Obama campaign-- Obama is the wonky policy honky and Biden plays the aggressive street thug who moves in too close for comfort and won't let you answer one question before he shouts another.; 10/11/12, 10:17 PM
Amused said...: Beowulf wrote:

"Biden won because he came across as the Alpha male. Ryan was interrupted but he didn't respond in kind.

Exactly, its what Josh Marshall calls the bitch slap theory of politics. If someone hits you and you don't hit back, you look like a prison bitch."

Well, the problem with that theory is that the general electorate is not the same thing as the typical prison population, where many, if not most, have only learned to communicate via violence.

Remember, Gore did well in his 1st debate with his own condescension, but was creamed post-debate for his sighs.

Biden didn't really reach independents, but he could have thrown a lifeline to the base who have been in disarray after Obama's dismal performance.

When people like Marshall compare the general electorate to a thuggish prison population, it just shows a staggering idiocy.

That you think the two are the same two, well, I'll just leave it to the readers to think about how that makes your intellect appear.

Following Marshall's or your advice, Biden might as well leapt out of his chair and slapped Ryan. I mean that would be the most 'alpha' thing he could do. After all, it's more resembling to an actual prison bitch slap too.

But would it have won the debate? You may think the question is friviolous and idiotic(and you're right), but that's only because the premise you set out is even more so.
So it reflects your own comment.; 10/11/12, 10:21 PM
Anonymous said...: "The "moderator" made zero pretense of doing anything other than trying to help Biden. She made no attempt to stop Biden's constant interrupting. She herself frequently interrupted Ryan when he was trying to make a point."

A good sign that Ryan lost is the number of Republicans whining like little bitches about the moderator. It's like sports fans from the losing team whining about the refs.; 10/11/12, 10:28 PM
beowulf said...: File this under Its Whiskey's world and we're just living in it...

Poll: Biden takes debate over Ryan, uncommitted voters say

Fifty percent of uncommitted voters who tuned into Thursday night's vice presidential debate in Danville, Ky., said they see Vice President Joe Biden as the winner over Mitt Romney's GOP running mate Rep. Paul Ryan... 31 percent deemed Ryan the winner, and 19 percent said they felt it was a tie.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57531059/poll-biden-takes-debate-over-ryan-uncommitted-voters-say/; 10/11/12, 10:45 PM
Anonymous said...: "Biden decided to go full blown opposite of Obama and just coming across like an old fart who wants to yell down anything he doesn't agree with."

"Biden:... condescending, belligerent. Constantly interrupting. A bit of a jerk."

"Biden was his usual smug, rudely interrupting, talk-over-the-other-guy self."

But wait, I'm confused; wasn't that what Mittler did in his "brilliant" performance last week?

Romney did nothing of the sort, he just was on point and prepared and is probably a better on the run thinker than Obama is. Obama talked more than Romney did the first debate, he just didn't make any worthwhile points, and Romney didn't hardly interrupt at all. Interrupting was all Biden did, some 80 plus times, not including the guffawing, the eye rolling, etc... He played the role the bad cop to Obama's good cop. In a public debate format like that there really is nothing you can do under those circumstances. If you let yourself get angry, he wins, if you start to respond to every little snide remark over your answers, he wins again, which is probably what Biden was trying to get Ryan to do. The best thing to do is simply stay on point and ignore the provocation, which is why even CNN's polling suggested that more voters thought Ryan won 48-44. ( Although within the error range ). Biden was very green quiche for leftist base of the Democrats, the people that would never vote GOP anyway (you know because red meat would be insensitive to animals. ) One of my best friends told me that his father debated that way, he would make the debate emotional and get him angry and then shift back to being civil, and act as if the son was being emotionally high strung and rude. That was probably Biden's strategy all along, Ryan didn't take the bait.; 10/11/12, 11:12 PM
Sherpa said...: Biden came in and delivered a solid performance when it was needed.

He probably stopped the bleeding, so to speak, of the Obama campaign.

Obama now has to go into the next debate and destroy Romney.; 10/11/12, 11:36 PM
Anonymous said...: http://www.amren.com/news/2012/10/angela-mccaskill-placed-on-administrative-leave-from-gallaudet/

buttcarthyism

you can discriminate based on creed; 10/11/12, 11:42 PM
Maya said...: They both said exactly what you'd expect them to say. But Ryan acted like you could take him places without risking embarrassment, while Biden came off as the elderly relative that people don't want to invite to their weddings because he'll make a scene.

Then, I pressed the mute button, and Ryan became a lot more attractive, but Biden still appeared as though someone should've taken the bottle away from grandpa a lot sooner.; 10/11/12, 11:55 PM
Seattle said...: They're both half-Irish. Ryan's 1/4 German and 1/4 English, and Biden is 1/2 English w/ a bit of French.; 10/11/12, 11:59 PM
Beefy Levinson said...: I listened to it on the car radio, so I didn't see all of Joe's offensive body language. I'd say it was a tie. Joe was being Joe not so much to sway independent voters as to lift Democratic spirits after last week's blowout. Sully is definitely feeling better so it worked in that sense. But nobody gives a rat's hind quarters about VP debates so I suspect this will have no big influence on the polls unless Obama hits a grand slam next week.; 10/12/12, 12:08 AM
Svigor said...: Did Biden just go out and take one for Team 0? You know, offer up his antics as something to take the focus off Obama's humiliating loss? Take some heat off the boss by not outperforming him? Brit Hume and a commenter here both said words to the effect that Biden had a good paper/transcript debate, and held his own. But his antics were like a whole other aspect to the thing, and he made a total ass of himself. Maybe he had two missions, and accomplished them both?; 10/12/12, 1:08 AM
Drunk Idiot said...: Seattle wrote...

"They're both half-Irish. Ryan's 1/4 German and 1/4 English, and Biden is 1/2 English w/ a bit of French."

If Biden is "half-Irish" & 1/2 English, where does the "bit of French" fit in?; 10/12/12, 1:10 AM
Svigor said...: A good sign that Ryan lost is the number of Republicans whining like little bitches about the moderator. It's like sports fans from the losing team whining about the refs.

A good sign that Ryan won is the majority of the polls showing he won.

But I'm not a Republican, so what do I know?

It's also not a good sign that the 0 is down 7 points in Florida polls...; 10/12/12, 1:11 AM
Svigor said...: He played the role the bad cop to Obama's good cop.

Yep. It seems more about the interpersonal than the political. Joe was the guy who put his dick in the butter tray to save the boss from more embarrassment.; 10/12/12, 1:14 AM
Svigor said...: Well, the problem with that theory is that the general electorate is not the same thing as the typical prison population

That was a beautiful response, sir.; 10/12/12, 1:20 AM
Svigor said...: A good sign that Ryan lost is the number of Republicans whining like little bitches about the moderator. It's like sports fans from the losing team whining about the refs.

So, you're saying black people are losers, and a good sign is their constant whining? Civil Rights is about blacks being losers?

I'm pretty sure this means Jews are the world's biggest losers, btw.

Back in the real world, if my team has been dealing with openly corrupt referees consistently biased against it for the last 40 years, yeah, I'm still going to bring up the GD refs, even if we won the game; there are always legions of idiots who haven't heard about how corrupt the refs are.; 10/12/12, 1:25 AM
Svigor said...: I mean, yeah, the guy actually compared the media to referees.

WTF did referees ever do to you, guy?; 10/12/12, 1:27 AM
Drunk Idiot said...: Joe Biden came off as an obnoxious asshat -- which was utterly predictable, because he's ... well ... an obnoxious asshat.

But his performance, boorish though it may have been, played extremely well with the Democratic base (as it was intended to do).

That's especially critical, not only because Obama & camp need to reinvigorate their base following last week's debate, but because the the Mainstream Media is part of that base.

The media will spin Biden's performance as a win. The narrative going into the weekend will be that Biden rejuvenated the Obama campaign and cut into Romney's momentum.

Perhaps more importantly, when Obama comes out swinging in Monday night's debate (expect the occasional below-the-belt shot at "Mittens/Mittler"), his attacks will seem tame by comparison to Biden's act last night.

BTW, since estimating the IQs of top national politicians is something of a recurring iSteve feature, does anybody have an estimate of Joe Biden's IQ?

He definitely seems to think its quite high.; 10/12/12, 1:36 AM
PA said...: Overcompensation: like Al Gore overdoing the eye-rolling and heavy sighing in his first debate with GW Bush, and then being wierdly polite in the second debate.; 10/12/12, 1:50 AM
Mighty Whig said...: I just watched the part when they were debating about Syria. The Romney campaign really has nothing to say about it. I found myself in rare sympathy for the Democrats on that topic.; 10/12/12, 2:02 AM
Mighty Whig said...: On the Syria portion of the debate, I found myself in rare sympathy with the Democrats. The Romney campaign has nothing to say on it.; 10/12/12, 2:03 AM
Seattle said...: "If Biden is "half-Irish" & 1/2 English, where does the "bit of French" fit in?"

The info is from wikipedia, which states his paternal side had English, Irish, and French ancestry. Names like Biden and Robinette. There was also a Blewitt on his mother's (Finnegan) side.
The point, common in these here parts, is that the English side is ignored or downplayed. You're very self-aware Drunken Idiot, thanks.; 10/12/12, 2:29 AM
beowulf said...: "Following Marshall's or your advice, Biden might as well leapt out of his chair and slapped Ryan. I mean that would be the most 'alpha' thing he could do. After all, it's more resembling to an actual prison bitch slap too. But would it have won the debate?"

Actually slapping someone is against the law, the police call it battery. I didn't think I had to point this out but Marshall meant slap (and I meant hit) only in the rhetorical sense. Also, you may be interested to learn that pro wrestling is staged. Its true, I can probably find some links if you don't believe me.; 10/12/12, 5:25 AM
Anonymous said...: Overall, I'd call this debate a draw. No one's going to change their minds based last night. A few points;

1. The moderator needed to do a better job of stopping the candidates from interrupting one antoher, especially Biden. At times it resembled SNL mocking The O'Reilley Factor more than a debate.

2. Given the situation (the economy sucks/ambassadors are dead/his boss got his ass handed to him in last week's debate) and Biden's history of gaffes, I think he did as well as he possibly could. He'll be remembered as a dick instead of a fool.

3. Ryan did pretty well, but he needs to work on making his points quick and precise instead of rambling. He needs to lower/deepen his vocal pitch (maybe he'll take up smoking), and he needs to stop beginning every response with "Look..", "You see...." and "What we're trying to say..." Just say it, guy.

4. Both candidates need to adopt Steve-O's "disconnect" policy on the Middle East.; 10/12/12, 5:49 AM
Matthew said...: The Irish can keep Joe Biden. Those of us concerned about the downplaying of English ancestry will pass on this one, thanks.; 10/12/12, 6:00 AM
Truth said...: "Romney did nothing of the sort, he just was on point and prepared..."

You're telling me that Mittens didn't interrupt Barry? Were we watching the same debate?

And, keep in mind now, the first debate was not structured for the candidates to engage each other, this one was.; 10/12/12, 6:49 AM
Mr. Anon said...: "Anonymous said...

A good sign that Ryan lost is the number of Republicans whining like little bitches about the moderator. It's like sports fans from the losing team whining about the refs."

And just who was the last debate moderator that voted Republican? Has there ever been one?; 10/12/12, 7:15 AM
SF said...: When I hear Paul Ryan talk, I can't help thinking I am watching the characters in "Laverne and Shirley." I guess I'm an incorrigible liberal snob.; 10/12/12, 7:48 AM
Anonymous said...: I just watched the part when they were debating about Syria. The Romney campaign really has nothing to say about it. I found myself in rare sympathy for the Democrats on that topic.

Why, what does the Democratic side have to say about that topic?; 10/12/12, 8:11 AM
Anonymous said...: Judging by the reax of liberals I follow on Twitter, Biden did at least rally his base.

It's interesting that what rallies the lefty base is the sort of intellectually empty but hyper-emotional display put on by Biden. It's not what you say that's important, it's how smug and sneering you act as you say it! That's the left in a nutshell.; 10/12/12, 8:19 AM
Anonymous said...: A good sign that Ryan lost is the number of Republicans whining like little bitches about the moderator. It's like sports fans from the losing team whining about the refs.

Ha ha. Of course, the media are just a bunch of impartial refs, and conservative "whining" about them is a sign of loserdom.; 10/12/12, 8:24 AM
David Davenport said...: My hunch is that "bitch slapping" is appealing to beta males and their fantasies. Women, however, find it less appealing.

You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate

Mollie Hemingway, Ed. · 11 hours ago

No one won this debate. And I suppose you could interpret that as me saying that Rep. Paul Ryan lost. But you'd be wrong. I think Vice President Joe Biden lost by being horribly belligerent and unserious. Ryan lost by not aggressively responding to Biden. And Martha Raddatz lost by interrupting at inappropriate times.

But allow me to revisit something I said during the debate:

Tonight, Joe Biden is embodying everything that women hate about talking with men.

I generally don't get into "gender" discussions. They usually don't interest me. But at some point in the live chat, I just pulled gender rank and let the men know that Biden's demeanor was not going over well with the ladies.

The truth is that we've all been there -- and that goes for women and men -- where you're having a conversation with someone awful. Maybe he's drunk. Maybe he's just a jerk or suffering from low self-esteem. But whatever the back story, the result is that he's condescending, thinks he knows far more than he does and interrupts you when you're making a point. It's not enjoyable.

I'm even willing to give this debate to Biden, in the very short term. But in the long term, I bet he lost it. Think about what will stay with people after the debate. They'll remember a rude, interrupting man.

...

Tonight, Joe Biden is embodying everything that women hate about talking with men.

Also, one suspects that women prefer handsomer men. Sorry, Uncle Joe.; 10/12/12, 8:27 AM
Anonymous said...: The point, common in these here parts, is that the English side is ignored or downplayed.

I think the point is that, as is common in these here parts, the degree of Irishness is emphasized in politicians we don't like (Biden) and dismissed in those we do. As in this comment.

Biden: Smirking, condescending, belligerent. Constantly interrupting. A bit of a jerk. The worst kind of Irish-Catholic stereotype.

Ryan: Composed, cool, competent. Too abstract with numbers at times.; 10/12/12, 8:29 AM
Canadian Observer said...: The fact that they had the candidates sitting down at the same table gave the Vice Presidential debate a much more informal and less professional feel than the Presidential debate. Romney and Obama were standing up at podiums and were a good distance from one another. It's easier to interrupt someone sitting at that same table rather than doing so from across the room.; 10/12/12, 8:48 AM
Anonymous said...: >but who are the other 31.5%? Paraplegics?

A good dog whistle<

Blacks are 12% of the population, and Hispanics about the same. Even assuming that every single black person and every single Hispanic pays no income tax and lives on relief checks, that only brings you up to ~24%.; 10/12/12, 9:41 AM
Anonymous said...: Whoa, people like Brokaw, whom the Left loves for his embracing of THE ONE, have this morning criticized the strange inappropriate laughing and mugging for the camera as his opponent spoke seriously of Libya and MidEast turmoil.

THE RNC has already made an ad showing him behaving that way--made it and showed it last night.

Women said Joe was "disgusting."

Of course, after their initial joy that ole Joe came out swinging, the Dems are distraught this morning to find the media attacking Joe's Benghazi blunder: "We didnt' know anything about needing more security" when testimony has already taken place this week showing several requests.

Of course, why would Sec. Clinton and Obama not have known security was needed at that place.

Debate spin going down the toilet for Dems.; 10/12/12, 9:45 AM
Anonymous said...: Joe Biden = clinical mythomaniac, craves being loved and respected.

It's not ususual for these people to be beloved by people who know them casually for they work at ingratiating themselves. This is why so many anchors and writers says, "I know Joe Biden, and I really like Joe Biden--he'd offer you the shirt off his back, but he has this habit of ......."

Yeah, he lies, makes up things out of wholecloth, both personal things and political points, always has. Years ago, he was waxing sentimental in front of a large crowd about the loss of his wife and child in a head-on car crash. He told of knowing how hard it was to lose someone at the hands of a drunken driver. Of course, the crowd, not knowing of his compulsive lying, had no reason to disbelieve him. After all, who would lie about such a thing?

As we know, his first wife and one child were indeed killed by the crash. Problem is--it had been determined by authorities years before by examining the scene (and Biden never disagreed with the findings) that it had been his wife who crossed over the line into the other lane and caused the crash. They speculated that she may have attending to the kid, or whatever, but the other driver was never thought to be at fault at all.

He made this speech not long after the other driver, as this was years after the accident, had died. The offspring of the other driver, disgusted by Biden's lies and the slandering of their father, forced him to stop telling the story with those lies.

He is a pathological liar. I have followed studies on this phenomenon for years, but research is scant because compulsive liars rarely will seek treatment. Therapists say that those who do rarely attend more than a few sessions before quitting, rarely admit they are liars (the reason they go at all is because of threats from family members), and of the few who stay for some treatment, therapists admit they can rarely believe what the patient tells them.; 10/12/12, 10:10 AM
Anonymous said...: Biden won on points and style. The only people he irritated were those who tuned in to see Ryan wipe the floor with him. Biden laughed in Ryan's face and simply refused to let it happen. He schooled the young upstart like Ward Cleaver calling down Eddie Haskell. Tears of joy must be on the faces of Dems this morning. I guess Ryan can run for comfort to the Alissa Rosenbaum books he betrayed.; 10/12/12, 10:11 AM
Dahlia said...: Beowolf,

Whiskey is correct, but not in the way you think. The CBS poll is the only one that showed Biden winning.

This CNN clip, which said it was mostly a draw, mentions that women undecideds did NOT care for Biden's schtick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRDINTEwG4c

If you believe what Whiskey said about Gingrich back in January, the above makes sense:

"What women do NOT like is “hot” guys who are angry, intense, and come off like this guy: (links to video)

That’s Newt Gingrich. “You Talking to Me?” Recall in the movie, Robert DeNiro did NOT get the girl. She found him repulsive. Don’t be Robert DeNiro in Taxi Driver. That’s another way of screaming “Banzai!” on a kamikaze attack. No matter how good it feels."

The last sentence is especially meaningful because strong Dem partisans are elated over Biden's performance.

As an aside, this whiskeyism is funny:
"Mitt Romney is the selfish bastard who fired people, and made lots of money, and is handsome, and somewhat cold. Good God! He’s the older, silver fox version of every glittery gay vampire hero, “cold” anti-hero that women love to hate and have lots of icky sex with! He’s chick magnet.

Women don’t care about political passion. To them that’s Travis Bickle territory. One step away from asking “You Talking to Me?” and a pyscho shoot-out."

http://whiskeysplace.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/newt-gingrich-anti-patriot-scam-artist/; 10/12/12, 10:14 AM
Anonymous said...: I can't quite understand why anyone, including Democrats, can't understand that Joe Biden, turning dramatically toward the camera and asking, "Folks, who ya gonna trust?" is far more George Costanza than George Constanza.

In fact, he's as bad as George + George's crazy father.; 10/12/12, 10:15 AM
Anonymous said...: Going around the net today about Biden...he was/is Sargeant Schultz:

"We_ knew_ NOTHING!"; 10/12/12, 10:44 AM
Anonymous said...: I'm embarrassed to be part Irish.

If that was Joe Biden, then what is a caricature of Joe Biden?; 10/12/12, 12:20 PM
Anonymous said...: I find it hard to believe anyone thought Ryan did well. Their preeminent foreign policy idea is to give Bibi a blank check for WW3, and he wouldn't dare give one honest answer why he wants war with Iran.

The moderator did clearly skew a bit left, but she did ask, for the first time, a question that should be answered on behalf of the American people - why is an encircled but nuclear-armed Iran, worse for Americans than another protracted war in the Middle East.

Keeping in mind that it will be Americans, and not our "allies" in Israel, that do the fighting, the dying, and the paying for it all.; 10/12/12, 1:50 PM
Semi-Employed White Guy said...: Why do Republicans always agree to these debates run by hard-core Democratic party partisans?

Why do they pander incessantly to blacks, Latinos and Jews at the expense of white votes? It defies logic. I have stopped asking why at this point.; 10/12/12, 3:36 PM
Seattle said...: "The Irish can keep Joe Biden. Those of us concerned about the downplaying of English ancestry will pass on this one, thanks."

No, please, I insist. He's a victim of anti-WASP bigotry, a self-hater, take him back and make him better.

An aside: it's notable that Ryan does not play up his Irish ancestry like Biden (who mentioned it in the debate). As Steve noted in regard James Q. Wilson's impression of Boston, there's a big east coast/west and rest of the US divide on this issue, the latter being more relaxed and less obnoxious than the former. I suspect this holds true for other groups too.; 10/12/12, 4:03 PM
Average Joe said...: Blacks are 12% of the population, and Hispanics about the same

Actually I think Hispanics are about 17% of the population and blacks 13%.; 10/12/12, 5:39 PM
Anonymous said...: I find it hard to believe anyone thought Ryan did well. Their preeminent foreign policy idea is to give Bibi a blank check for WW3, and he wouldn't dare give one honest answer why he wants war with Iran.

The moderator did clearly skew a bit left, but she did ask, for the first time, a question that should be answered on behalf of the American people - why is an encircled but nuclear-armed Iran, worse for Americans than another protracted war in the Middle East.

Are you aware that the Obama administrations position on Iran and nuclear weapons is identical to that of Romney and Ryan?; 10/12/12, 5:47 PM
Anonymous said...: Biden won on points and style.

Yeah, like when he laughed as he said that he voted against the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.

To those people who don't know that he was lying his ass off, that might seem like a "win".; 10/12/12, 5:52 PM
ElvisNixon.com said...: The ONE Word Missing From The Debate

http://elvisnixon.com/2012/10/12/the-one-word-missing-from-the-debate.aspx; 10/12/12, 7:20 PM
Anonymous said...: "If that was Joe Biden, then what is a caricature of Joe Biden? "

Now that's a good line.; 10/12/12, 7:22 PM
NOTA said...: Anon 5:47:

Indeed, it's depressing to note how much of the policies of the two candidates are identical. Often Romney will attack Obama (or Obama attack Romney) for policies that both campaigns basically share.

Add to thst the policies that are identical in practice but where one candidate or the other just says he'll do something else to get elected, and a cynical person might almost suspect that this election is an illustration of the old joke about how, if voting could change anything, it'd be illegal.; 10/12/12, 8:06 PM
Anonymous said...: 15.5% = retirees and military
13% = black
17% = Hispanic

There's 45.5%

The rest will be miscellaneous like handicapped, unemployed and Brighton Beach.

Hear the dog whistle?; 10/12/12, 8:47 PM
Anonymous said...: >Are you aware that the Obama administrations position on Iran and nuclear weapons is identical to that of Romney and Ryan?<

Platforms, shmatforms. It also says in there that all abortion is wrong - laugh.

Are you aware that Romney is an old personal friend of Bibi, whom Obama (with Sarkozy) called a liar and an a--h---? And that Christian Zionists are to a chin Republican? And that Sheldon Adelson... oh gosh, what is the use?; 10/12/12, 9:06 PM
Anonymous said...: "Are you aware that the Obama administrations position on Iran and nuclear weapons is identical to that of Romney and Ryan?"

Platforms, shmatforms.

Ah, you're one of those people who does not care what anyone says, because he's convinced that he possesses esoteric knowledge of what everyone really thinks.

Not much point in trying to have a rational discussion with the clinically insane.; 10/13/12, 7:15 AM
Anonymous said...: Platforms, shmatforms. It also says in there that all abortion is wrong - laugh.

You're a moby - a lefty troll pretending to be a discontented conservative. The above line is a dead give-away - while everybody on the left is convinced that the GOP platform claims that "all abortion is wrong" (even for rape, incest, or the life of the mother) no such language appears in the actual 2012 Republican platform.

I'd link to the platform and suggest that you read it yourself, but of course, it's irrelevant to you what it says, because you're convinced that (a) everyone is lying and (b) you possess some special insight into what everyone really believes.

So your response would be 'All right, it doesn't say "all abortion is wrong", but I know that's what they truly believe'.

You can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person.; 10/13/12, 7:31 AM
Anonymous said...: >Hear the dog whistle?<

Nope. At least half of the black/Hispanic block pulls its own weight. Even in a worst case scenario, that puts it equal to retirees and military.

And there are white people on welfare. Hadn't you heard? Where are they in your formula?; 10/13/12, 12:55 PM
Hunsdon said...: David, I think the dog whistle was for Brighton Beach.; 10/13/12, 4:10 PM
Svigor said...: Ah, you're one of those people who does not care what anyone says, because he's convinced that he possesses esoteric knowledge of what everyone really thinks.

Yes, he's a lib.; 10/13/12, 6:17 PM
Svigor said...: At least half of the black/Hispanic block pulls its own weight.

That's some mighty fine work. I mean, half, that's really sumpthin'.

I consider the amount of jobs the gov't gives blacks to be a form of welfare. Haven't seen any stats on that, yet.; 10/13/12, 6:21 PM
Truth said...: "15.5% = retirees and military
13% = black
17% = Hispanic

There's 45.5%"

Uh, a lot of that 15.5% are black and Hispanic, there, Blaise Pascal.; 10/13/12, 6:29 PM
Anonymous said...: David made some lame response about even if all blacks and Hispanics were unemployed, blah, blah, blah. So I took his statement and constructed a silly exaggerated response, something the brilliant Pascal would never do.

I don't have exact percentages at my fingertips, but let me make a broad imprecise but valid argument.

A disproportionate number of working-age NAMs don't pay taxes. A disproportionate number of working age NAMs who pay taxes, don't pay enough to cover the benefits(not to mention preferences) they receive. If NAMs declared themselves a separate nation within America, it would be a third world nation. That's the dog whistle. Silence it if you can - it seems to be bothering some people's ears.

Who heard Brighton Beach? Good hearing!!; 10/13/12, 7:59 PM
Anonymous said...: Anyone who believes in a political platform as if it's a tablet from Moses isn't very bright.; 10/13/12, 8:11 PM

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