From the Los Angeles Times:
A modern feminist takes her husband's name
A young self-described feminist surprises friends and colleagues by adding her husband's last name to her own. Why? Because she wants to.
By Emily Alpert Reyes
As a kid, I played with toy dinosaurs and dolls alike. At 13, I insisted that a female rabbi perform my bat mitzvah ceremony. I didn't shave my legs during high school and much of college, in protest against sexist and generally pain-in-the-rear beauty norms. I have a career I love — and no plans to leave it.
So how did a modern woman like me end up changing her name?
I am now Emily Alpert Reyes, instead of Emily Alpert. The decision took friends and family by surprise. My bemused and wonderful husband told me, "You know you don't have to do that, right?" My editors found the decision so baffling that they prodded me to write this column.
"She was the last person I would expect to go along with what really is a patriarchal tradition," a college friend wrote in an email she later forwarded to me. She added, "I am routinely surprised by the number of my well-educated, feminist friends who still change their names without question."
Why did I do it? Not because anyone made me. Not because I disliked my old name — it's still there in plain sight, sandwiched between Emily and Reyes.
What could be more Spanish-surnamed and thus affirmative action-worthy than "Alpert Reyes?" I mean Alpert is already a Spanish-surname, isn't it? I know it has something to with Tijuana ...
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79 comments:
Is she related to Eric Garcetti, L.A. "Mexican" mayor?
When the tight people are being attacked, things will be done:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/11/12/brooklyn-rabbi-gang-of-teens-playing-disturbing-game-of-knock-out-the-jew/
Actually, I"m more surprised that Herb Alpert is Jewish. Who knew, who knew? Or rather, it just isn't something that was thought about. "hey, there's that dude playing cheap, second rate knock off "Mexican" sounding music, OBVIOUSLY he must be Hispanic."
Who knew?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtwCcer0dUY
decent remake
This Alpert "feminist" taking and brandishing her husband's Spanish surname is like all those Sixties' chicks who changed their names to, like, you know, Strawberry, and Moon Child. Fashion is, after all, a demanding mistress, commanding great sacrifices and public devotions be made in her name. In the "You say you want a revolution" Sixties I even knew a girl who changed her name to Desirée Jezebel Rasputin.
You get the drift, yes?
As Tom Wolfe wrote, in America the Greatest Sin is to be..."left behind."
We are living in the era of cheap grace.
Jews are smart. They realize that the special victim status they get as Jews isn't always so special or victimized, so it helps to also be able to claim inclusion in other victim groups as well.
A few other powerful whites have figured this out too.
It's not hard to envision a future in which only white proles are too clueless to know to hitch their wagon to some (now totally symbolic) victim lobby, and only white paleocons are too proud to.
It's a public goods problem for whites, isn't it?
Alpert, of the Tijuana Khazar tribe.
I personally will not rest until we have achieved social justice for the Spanish surnamed!
On an unrelated note, it seems to me that not shaving one's legs has fallen out of vogue among feminists. Young feminists these days seem to be more into denouncing "sexist beauty standards" while simultaneously indulging in them.
Come on, you needed to include "But I'm also Emily Reyes, part of a new and chosen family."
I don't follow trends closely, but it seems to me that girls keeping their maiden names is a long-past feminist fad. This lady seems to be doing a variation of a variation on that, hyphenating like you're an aristocrat. (I think historically it was done, understandably, when the wife's family was high-status. Dynastic marriages.) As far as I know, taking the husband's name is still standard. Anyway, point taken. Spanishness makes taking her husband's name suddenly cool. It's to do with the liberal hierarchy of values. Spiting your conservative kin > women's rights, for example, so liberals defend Muslims who treat women like property.
People like this must be on the most colossal of ego trips whereby they think that what they have for breakfast is world-wide breaking news. This is the Facebook-Twitter age where the most inane things are reported by the minute. She can call herself anything she wants, nobody cares. It'll all be revised later anyway.
If she really wanted to do it in Spanish language style, she would call herself Emily Alpert de Reyes.
"A young self-described feminist surprises friends and colleagues by adding her husband's last name to her own."
How is her last name her own when it was her father's?
All that feminists who refuse to take their husband's name are doing is preserving their own father's (father's father's etc) name.
OT: Steve, a while back you wondered if there was an online spreadsheet you could set up and let readers play with. I still don't know the answer to that, but here's a discussion that mentions several: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6725387
"What could be more Spanish . . "
Well not exactly, but maybe she is Hasidic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Alpert
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/03/is-aey-hasidic-enough-to-be-eligible.html
Adding Reyes could make her a two pointer.
As a kid, I played with toy dinosaurs and dolls alike. At 13, I insisted that a female rabbi perform my bat mitzvah ceremony."
Seems like the rampant Episcopalization of mainstream Judaism continues unabated. What is this nonsense of a bat mitzvah and female rabbi?
Bar mitzvah made sense in an era of a short life span when successfully reaching the age of 13 without succumbing to infant mortality,disease,war or overwork was a big deal.
Once you hit that age , it was relatively smooth sailing.
And a 13 year old boy of that age being 10 times more mature than a 30 year old hipster today was expected to earn his keep and fight wars if need be.
David was in his mid teens when he slew Goliath
While a 13 year old girl was only expected to start menstruating and then get married off
These stupid broads seem more than happy to celebrate the ability to involuntarily pass bodily fluids each month but do not wish to honor what that process is supposed to entail-marriage and motherhood.
As an aside.I find it very disturbing how women are willing to openly discuss their monthlies with perfect strangers even their dates.I swear to god I dated a broad not two months ago who only half jokingly asked that I remind her to change her pad in an hour since she was on the rag!Needless to say I made a hasty exit and never called her again
"I didn't shave my legs during high school and much of college, in protest against sexist and generally pain-in-thce-rear beauty norms. I have a career I love — and no plans to leave it"
Hey Senor Reyes,looks like you struck gold! Dont let this peach get away!
Yeah somehow I don't think she would have been so willing if his surname was something like Smith or von Arx.
The intersection between "feminist" and "Jewish women" appears to be around 90%.
And by an amazing coincidence, the intersection between "feminist Jewish women" and "works in the media" appears to be be very high as well. It's reached the point where I'm a little startled to read something in the MSM which was NOT written by a Jewish person.
Of course, actual hispanophone women don't take the husband's surname at all: they keep their name, and the children have two surnames--e.g. Federico García Lorca, Gabriel García Márquez et...
Can't deal with reading the piece, but I guess by doing what wise Latinas don't she's spitting in the face of that culture's male-dominated culture. Or something.
Microaggressions.
I know a white woman who kept her husband's hispanic surname after the divorce for career reasons, and admitted such. I also know a white hispanic man who jokes that if he had taken his hispanic mother's last name instead of his father's super white name, he'd be doing alot better in life because of AA.
American feminism is fueled by Jewish feminism - Jewish women are second class citizens in the Jewish tribal structure. Throughout Jewish history “the Jewess” has been mistreated by the Jew male. With the freedom, posterity, and independence found in Christian America, the Jewish women was able to rebel against that history. American Feminism is the result.
Hating half the human race is sick and harmful for the human condition - end of story!
Wait a minute. What happened to the Stalinist disappearance of Alexander Jefferson?
Awaiting content repurposification.
Herb Alpert's Whipped Cream album cover is the greatest album cover ever and is now part of american pop-culture history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VFgKIz1SrlI
Jewish women aren't second class citizens at any non-Orthodox synagogue. They practically run many of those places. I also fail to see how Jewish women were any more second class within traditional Judaism than they were within traditional Christianity. Catholics don't let women become priests. In the late '90's, the Southern Baptists passed a resolution that wives should submit to their husbands. Civil law limited women's ability to hold property. That women had more freedoms in Europe than they had in Arab or South Asian societies I could accept, but it's not as clear cut to me that European Jewish women in traditioinal communities were much less free than their gentile counterparts until the twentieth century.
"On an unrelated note, it seems to me that not shaving one's legs has fallen out of vogue among feminists. Young feminists these days seem to be more into denouncing "sexist beauty standards" while simultaneously indulging in them."
It truly is puzzling. When I was young, feminists denounced shaving their pits and legs as patriarchal oppression and infantilizing. It turned women into pre-pubescent children and men were all really child molesters deep inside.
Now, oddly enough, feminists pour hot wax/tar on their nether regions and rip out their pubic hair by the roots in what has to be an agonizing process. And which REALLY makes them look pre-pubescent, yet nary a peep from feminists.
Go figure.
As a true feminist I am sure she could turn taking her husband's name; making bunches of babies; and staying barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen into a feminist statement if she really wanted to.
Feminism truly is a protean and ever-changing ideology. You never know what the feminist fashion will be next year. [Although I really hope they don't bring back placenta stew ... or pant suits]
She was a little Hispanic licensee... A record star she thought she'd be
Power Child said...
Jews are smart. They realize that the special victim status they get as Jews isn't always so special or victimized, so it helps to also be able to claim inclusion in other victim groups as well.
Yes they are smart. Just ask them. They certainly know it and don't mind telling everyone.
Now hold it. There are SOME groups that even Jews just won't try to be included into.
Very few Jews at all, are clamoring to be included into the born again fundamentalist charismatic Christian group. Very few. That's a fact.
So they're choosy about which groups that they want to be included into.
"Bar mitzvah made sense in an era of a short life span when successfully reaching the age of 13 without succumbing to infant mortality,disease,war or overwork was a big deal.
Once you hit that age , it was relatively smooth sailing."
Yeah, whatever.
"David was in his mid teens when he slew Goliath"
Yes, and another famous Jew of the bible didn't start a ministry til he was about nearly 30 yrs old. And in the ancient world, that was fairly ancient.
Trying to remember his name. Started around 30rys old, about 2 millenia, with only about 12 followers. Anyone? What was his name?
It actually makes sense on a pop culture level. Her dad played fake hispanic music but was usually considered an "honorary" hispanic citizen.
Makes total sense from that perspective. She probably grew up around some elite hispanics who told her as much "Oh, your familys one of us. You guys totally get us." And so...sure, why not? Why not take an actual hispanic's surname?
Now, would she have taken her husband to be's surname if it had been Jones, Smith, or O'Reilly?
That's the real question to be asked.
From a practical standpoint, I guess Julian Lennon and Bob Dylan's offsprings were all taken, so she settled and fell back on the obvious. Honorary hispanic becomes grafted into hispanic tribe.
According to Herbalpertpresents.com Herb's nephew is somehow credited as "Randy Badazz"... which just goes to the old saying: No matter how many hills you climb so as to jockey for social status, there'll always be someone more Badazz than you
Alpert was mayor of San Antonio once too
Very few Jews at all, are clamoring to be included into the born again fundamentalist charismatic Christian group.
What about Kathie Lee... Bob Dylan did that for a while too (seems in character)
blogosphere Jew expert said...
"Very few Jews at all, are clamoring to be included into the born again fundamentalist charismatic Christian group."
"What about Kathie Lee... Bob Dylan did that for a while too (seems in character)"
What about her? She's not Jewish. She's regular WASP and grew up Christian she also attended Oral Roberts University and that's about as non Jewish as you can get. Verrry few Jews are affiliated with born again Charismatic televangelist camp. Dare anyone to name more than like.....well.There you go.
Dylan? Didn't le leave decades ago? You know, he tried it. Like some try LSD or heroin, for the experience of it.
So, for actual staying power....dare anyone to name a Jew who actually CONVERTED and STAYED in the charismatic televangelist camp. Can't be done.
See, sometimes we think that Jews are just like...everywhere and that they can't only be about 2% of USA. But then a group like this one, which is about 15% of USA and the total number of Jews in the born again charismatic televangelist fundamentalist Christian camp is....nil. negligible.
Not even a blip on the radar if that at all.
Very simple as to why: "Sadie, I'm thinking we should go join that Christian fundamentalist church."
"Bernie! Stop! Those people are too stupid for us. Don't want to be around that type of stupidity, it could be catching."
Boom. There you go. Zero of em in that camp.
1. I'm trying to think of some above-average IQ groups that don't like to talk about how smart they are. East Asians don't seem to talk about it a lot in English at least, but that doesn't preclude them from talking about it amongst themselves in their own languages.
2. Fundie Christians aren't a protected victim group, even if they're clearly a numerical minority. What sane person looking to increase their political power would hitch their wagon to the fundamentalist Christian locomotive? To the mainstream media and its narrative, fundamentalist Christians are America's Nazis.
but she didn't take her husband's name. she did the new thing they do. she tacked his name on the end.
i've been seeing this here and there. it's a trend. not a big trend. but it's there. i'm not sure if it's a jewish woman thing though. it could be. it might just be a liberal thing. need more evidence.
What about Kathie Lee?
Kathie Lee Crosby?
Ironically, the word "Mexican" at one time was a euphemism for "Jew". Something to think about when listening to Herb Alpert.....
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
People here knocking Alpert,
Don't know much about history,
Don't know much biology,
Don't know much about nothing at all.
Had it been a Goldman I am sure she would have taken that name.
I can only echo what someone said in another comment. Today almost article in the media seems to be written by a Jew or has a Jew standing in as "Everyman". I mean what could be more 'average American' than a Jewish-Feminist who married a Hispanic.
Or maybe I'm just reading too much of Slate, Atlantic, Vanity Fair and the NYT's.
As a true feminist I am sure she could turn taking her husband's name; making bunches of babies; and staying barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen into a feminist statement if she really wanted to.
Yeah, whether you go all sleazy-slutty or bag yourself in a burqa, it's all feminist if you claim it's your choice. In other words, it's all meaningless.
Anonymous 2:29/3:12 you are proceeding steadfastly upon your lifequest but remain still a novice. Already you have discerned that the Hebrews are wildly underrepresented among Pentecostal snake-handlers. Now you must fix that Ahabian fervor on determining why their ritual world-domination meetings are staged in Jackson Hole or Doha. You'd expect them to stand out rather obviously in such locales.
She should have titled the article "I don't have anything to write about today." What could be less newsworthy than some 20-something newlywed's decision about whether to take her husband's name? Perhaps her next article will be about how they chose their china pattern, or what kind of dog they have?
In my social circle, women often take their maiden name as their middle name. Seems perfectly sensible to me--it makes it easier for people to figure out that Jane Smith Jones used to be Jane Ann Smith, and seems to do no harm at all.
"When Cathy Lee and Joe Theismann broke up after 7 years, he sued her for half her net worth, leaving her financially ruined."
^From IMDB, for anyone wondering who Cathy Lee Crosby is.
No relation to Bing, or David AFAIK
2. "Fundie Christians aren't a protected victim group, even if they're clearly a numerical minority."
Neither are Jews, what's your point? There are more fundamentalist Christians by total number than Jews.
"What sane person looking to increase their political power would hitch their wagon to the fundamentalist Christian locomotive?"
Ok, Mr. Leftist, you do know that while a sizable minority they are mainly concentrated in red state US. So that if a politician is from one of those dozen or so states a great way to ingratiate themselves within that community is to attend a known church of theres. Much the way Jesse Jackson does when he wants to convince the brothers and sisters to vote in the right fashion.
"To the mainstream media and its narrative, fundamentalist Christians are America's Nazis."
No, according to JEWS that may be indeed the case. Most leftists usually have a sort of decency not to blatantly press the Hitler card so quickly. That really is.....obtuse.
Now, if you want to say that the MSM regards the Fundamentalist Christians as America's (certain word) for blacks, then you have a much stronger argument on solid ground of which to base your larger point.
Both groups, African_Americans and Fundamentalist Christians, while at times do overlap they also share some fairly known facts in common: Low IQ; lower literacy rates; but there surprisingly (or perhaps not so surprisingly) the similarities end.
After all, most fundamentalists neither share an 80% born out of wedlock nor are 50% + 1 of their total numbers in prison for felonious (usually violent) crimes.
But then, following after the teachings of Christ generally wouldn't get a person tossed into jail for violent crimes nor would it directly cause out of wedlock births.
So a more accurate phrase would be: the MSM views fundamentalist believers in a vein that would normally (based on various facts) be reserved for the broader African-American community but since they would lose their job and status immediately they tend not to and instead create a stereotypical (which is based in part in truth and largely on myth) as well as fictitious caricature of all fundamentalists in a general sense.
MSM logic: 'Fundamentalist = dumb and intolerant but blacks = always a victim and never ever wrong and are to always be considered objects of pity'
Everytime MSM speaks negatively regarding a fundamentalist, just mentally remember "this is what they would normally (if they were accurately honest with the facts) speak about African-Americans.
Are we sure that Emily Alpert is related to Herb? His wikipedia entry lists three children (Eden, Dore and Aria), none of whom are named Emily.
"anony-mouse said...
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
People here knocking Alpert"
Uh yeah, we should knock. He made a large portion of his wealth doing second rate (at best) knock off mariachi lite touristy type music that was produced and packaged for upper middle scale whites in the 60s.
He never claimed he was re-discovering some ancient Mexican style of music. If anything, he ripped off the commonly known (at that time) stereotypical mariachi music that "passed" for rich tourists as "oh, that's real legit Mexican music." Gimme a break.
He also benefitted of riding the wave of an interest in South American music as well. "Girl from Ipanema" Brazilian music found its way up here and Alpert helped ride the wave to fame and fortune. He would be lumped in with that whole entire 60s craze.
But if you honestly listen to his music today right now, it's no different than sanitized touristy music. Lawrence Welk; sing along with Mitch; Ray Conniff.
In the world of authentically Mexican culture style music, Alpert was Ray Coniff/Lawrence Welk.
Very commercial, but basically bubblegum junk from an authentic creative artistic perspective.
And neither could he sing on key.
"Hans Landa said...
Anonymous 2:29/3:12 you are proceeding steadfastly upon your lifequest but remain still a novice."
Uh, no Hansy, I'm not. If you look at census figures, demographics of various states groups etc you find that there are very few Jews represented among Fundamentalist Christians.
The actual technical word is 'Messianic Jew', that is, one who has converted to Christianity but prefers to also have their Jewish roots recognized. As we know that there are about (according to the figures you happen to believe) world wide there are roughly between 10-15million Jews. Of this total number, there are about 35,000-50,000 Messianic Jews.
"Already you have discerned that the Hebrews are wildly underrepresented among Pentecostal snake-handlers."
Of which any nine yr old child could deduce this accurate statement.
"Now you must fix that Ahabian fervor on determining why their ritual world-domination meetings are staged in Jackson Hole or Doha."
You are referring not to Jews themselves, the bulk of whom do prefer to remain holed up on the Islands of DC and Manhattan. The answer long ago presented itself in the quotation of the right honorable NY Mayor and Presidential Candidate of long ago yore Al Smith. When asked perchance on why he was not going to campaign west of the Mississippi, his reply was thus: 'What states are there west of the Mississippi?'
If you modify Smith's retort to 'west of the Hudson' and allow for a few exceptions (LA region, etc) then we have discovered the main reason and objection regarding the lack of Jewish numbers among the charismatic fundamentalist televangelist movement.
"You'd expect them to stand out rather obviously in such locales."
So true, so true. And since their numbers are not there in any significance among this subset of Christianity, ipso facto, they DONT stand out.
It has been noted that one could also make the case (barring a late night comics jokes about her own family's origins) that there are few perhaps fewer Jews who have converted to Mormonism and for the same reason.
"Sadie, lets go to that Mormon church, lets give it a try."
"Bernie are you crazy? It's in Utah!"
"So?"
"It's too dry! And they don't even have any good chinese food!"
Anonymous said...
"When Cathy Lee and Joe Theismann broke up after 7 years, he sued her for half her net worth, leaving her financially ruined."
^From IMDB, for anyone wondering who Cathy Lee Crosby is.
No relation to Bing, or David AFAIK
Crosby isnt a Jewish surname, it's Irish and or Scotch/Irish. David Crosby isn't Jewish. Now maybe she converted for him, that's something else. Unless you're saying that Crosby isnt her real name but what she changed it to for show business.
Ever notice, that barring a few exceptions (whoopi comes to mind) that most gentiles almost never adopt a Jewish surname for show business but Jews change their names all the time.
That is just sick. Someone like that bum taking half her money. Always thought there was something about him, couldnt figure out what it was.
I suspect that most ordinary Jews who might consider converting to Christianity would feel more comfortable with a liturgical service (e.g. Catholic, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Eastern Orthodox) than they would with a fundamentalist or Pentecostal service. Could be wrong though, as Judaism has no elaborate ceremony akin to what what finds in Catholic, Episcopal or Orthodox churches.
In my social circle, women often take their maiden name as their middle name. Seems perfectly sensible to me--it makes it easier for people to figure out that Jane Smith Jones used to be Jane Ann Smith, and seems to do no harm at all.
Right. My 90-year old mother had no middle name. It was expected that she would tack on her husband's name and then have a middle name. It was a very upper-middle-to-upper class thing to do. Very practical too. Don't give your daughters a middle name, folks.
@Anonymous of 11/13/13, 6:05 PM (Why are the most inane comments always made by people without an easy handle to reply to?):
"Mr. Leftist"
Ahh, you got me!
Anyway, good point about fundie Christians as more like the MSM's whipping boys than their Nazis (though you got into a weird tangent comparing fundie Christians to black people...what was that all about?).
The point is that Jews are clever enough to know when a little extra Victim Juice will help them retain their edge. If you want people to self-censor rather than grow bold enough to criticize you, are you going to don the sheepskin of the Vibrant Mexican or the fundamentalist Christian?
The back story on the original TB cover: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2018926566_whippedcreamlady16m.html
Used to linger on that cover as a kid. It still has power.
>> Power Child said...
"Why are the most inane comments always made by people without an easy handle to reply to?)"
Why are the most asinine comments made by those who think more highly of themselves than they really are? Although, once a child, he must still think as one several yrs later. Rather to behave and act like a full grown adult rather than a child. There is no power (inner or outward) in remaining perpetually prepubescent.
>>"Ahh, you got me!"
Uh, no you got your own self by that backwards reasoning. Enjoy.
>>"Anyway, good point about fundie Christians as more like the MSM's whipping boys than their Nazis."
Yes, it was actually. It's seldom, if ever, a good thing to reach for the Hitler card each and every single time in this nation when for the most part, most of us (specifically born after 1945) have no idea whatsoever the actual and literal aspects of enduring under the Nazi Regime of 33-45. Thus let's all agree to stop trivializing the actual horrors of what it was and its horrible place in human history.
>>"(though you got into a weird tangent comparing fundie Christians to black people...what was that all about?)."
Uh, NO, what I was saying is that the MSMs short hand for fundie Christians is that they are dumb, uneducated etc. As with various stereotypes there often contains some elements of truth. At the same time, however, several (not all but several) of the things within the MSM's shorthand could very easily be made to apply to blacks in general and in fact, the MSM's criticism of fundies (e.g. as being low IQ, etc) can also be applied in a general sense to blacks as well. Obviously for PC reasons and other reasons pertaining to being called racist, they will never ascribe to blacks the things that they fairly routinely ascribe to fundie Christians.
>>"The point is that Jews are clever enough to know when a little extra Victim Juice will help them retain their edge."
Yes, that can often be the case. Although I would modify that somewhat by stipulating that for the most part in 2013 right now, about 90%-95% of the time, Jews in general do not resort to playing the "victim" as do other groups (e.g. blacks, etc)
And lets face it: American Jews for the most part would be the LAST people to consciously think of themselves as a victim. They don't live their lives as if they think that way and they certainly don't behave like it either.
>>"If you want people to self-censor rather than grow bold enough to criticize you, are you going to don the sheepskin of the Vibrant Mexican or the fundamentalist Christian?"
Then it becomes a mere game of power based on ideas and by any means necessary. But to state that a minority (Jews) which has vast amounts of influence at various levels of power continually plays a victim is a bit misleading. Perhaps about 100yrs ago in US they did. Now they don't have to. And few truly believe that they are any longer, least of all the Jews themselves.
PS: And the fact is that they've been eclipsed by other victim groups, some of which (blacks) tend to be on the anti-semetic side and do not see Jews as fellow brothers in the "struggle" vs the white power structure but as part of the man keeping them down.
Makes total sense from that perspective. She probably grew up around some elite hispanics who told her as much "Oh, your familys one of us...."
And presumably they were right because presumably they were Jewish. As is her husband, presumably.
I suspect that most ordinary Jews who might consider converting to Christianity would feel more comfortable with a liturgical service (e.g. Catholic, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Eastern Orthodox) than they would with a fundamentalist or Pentecostal service. Could be wrong though, as Judaism has no elaborate ceremony akin to what what finds in Catholic, Episcopal or Orthodox churches."
Both your points have merit.
Catholicism in America is associated with one ethnic group or the other(Irish,Italian,Hispanic) and in general congregants cluster around churches catering to their group.
Same in Eastern Orthodox and Episcopelian(WASPs)
This ties in to Judaism's ethno tribal roots
OTOH you are right Jews not having such elaborate ceremonies(atleast since Rabbinic Judaism)
Historian Will Durant refered to the Protestant Reformation where Catholic idols and paintings were relegated to bonfires as the rejudaization of Christianity
DVN:"Bar mitzvah made sense in an era of a short life span when successfully reaching the age of 13 without succumbing to infant mortality,disease,war or overwork was a big deal.
Once you hit that age , it was relatively smooth sailing."
Yeah, whatever."
DVN:A well thought,articulate and knowledgeable retort.Wow you sure showed me!
DVN:"David was in his mid teens when he slew Goliath"
Yes, and another famous Jew of the bible didn't start a ministry til he was about nearly 30 yrs old. And in the ancient world, that was fairly ancient.
Trying to remember his name. Started around 30rys old, about 2 millenia, with only about 12 followers. Anyone? What was his name?
DVN: And your point is what exactly? Did I see that pretty much everyone croaks at 30?
You do realize there were some missing years in the life of Jesus which the Bible passes over in silence?
Jesus is hardly your typical Biblical character as he was pretty much the only individual in that text to claim that he was for all practical purposes God in the flesh
A very pre Judaic Near Eastern belief.
His tomb from where was supposed to have resurrected used to a shrine to Adonis(another dying and rising god)
The ancient Hebrews honored this Phoenician diety by using the word Adonai as a synonym for Lord
Well, I really liked Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass when I was eight. Apparently a lot of people over age 8 did too, considering how expensive some of these music videos must have been, such as the orchestra in formal dress fiddling away while the waves at El Matador beach roll around their ankles. That's 15 years before MTV.
I suspect that most ordinary Jews who might consider converting to Christianity would feel more comfortable with a liturgical service (e.g. Catholic, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Eastern Orthodox) than they would with a fundamentalist or Pentecostal service.
Liturgy is not the point. History is. Given what I think of fundies/penties, I still must admit there was very little bad blood between these denominations and the Jews. Unlike the Catholic and Orthodox churches....
>> ysv_rao said...
DVN:A well thought,articulate and knowledgeable retort.Wow you sure showed me!
Hey, if that's all it took in your behalf, anytime, anytime.
>>And your point is what exactly? Did I see that pretty much everyone croaks at 30?
Were discussing that life spans were different in the ancient world, isn't that what you meant to imply? Unless you can't even grasp your own logic. But then, 'whatever' completely floored you, so its frankly little wonder.
>>You do realize there were some missing years in the life of Jesus which the Bible passes over in silence?
As is the same of Moses, contrary to what Cecil B DeMille may have taught you.
What fun though, the one person in history that can make em turn red with rage.
>>Jesus is hardly your typical Biblical character
tut tut tut. We can say that about God Himself, the main character of the whole entire book. But lots of biblical characters are atypical as well. Samson wasn't typical. David and Solomon weren't typical. Jabez and Hezekiah weren't typical. Do stop and consider before using all these non-sequitors.
>>A very pre Judaic Near Eastern belief.
Could say the same regarding Judaism. Another non-sequitor. Do continue.
>>His tomb from where was supposed to have resurrected used to a shrine to Adonis(another dying and rising god)
But my, how you really open up your mouth and demonstrate all ignorance shaken together with a dash of conspiracy thinking.
>>The ancient Hebrews honored this Phoenician diety by using the word Adonai as a synonym for Lord.
If you say so, you're the "expert".
Again:
Whatever.
And anyway, Reyes does not equal Jewish, it's an hispanic surname.
Like on later episodes of the X-FILES. Mind you, not many Hispanics are as tall, slim, and white as Monica Reyes / Annabeth Gish.
Whipped Cream and Other Delights spent 141 weeks on Billboard's Top 40 albums chart. Classic cover. You were almost sure to find a copy at any suburban garage sale from 1970 to 1995.
>>Steve Sailer said...
Well, I really liked Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass when I was eight. Apparently a lot of people over age 8 did too, considering how expensive some of these music videos must have been, such as the orchestra in formal dress fiddling away while the waves at El Matador beach roll around their ankles. That's 15 years before MTV.
Yes, but Steve, that could be more of a reflection of Americana during the 60s: confident, bold in its outlook, and somewhat futuristic in its confidence that tomorrow was going to be better and better. Its like that architect who designed Bob Hope's house you mentioned. Cant think of his name off the top...
But Alperts music itself, while tuney and catchy is basically the Lawrence Welk/Percy Faith of authentic Mexican music. Spanish born Segovia was more "authentically Hispanic" than ever Alpert was. But his audience didn't care. To them, that's what they wanted Hispanic music to sound and to feel like.
And anyway, Alperts music today makes for some darn fine elevator muzak bar none, bar none! Dare anyone to name better muzak than Alpert.
I would ask you though, perhaps since he would later record some Lennon-McCartney songs perhaps Alpert was influenced by Help!'s video style of preMTV. The way that film was made it definitely paved the way for the Monkees, the group now widely associated with ushering in the birth of pre-MTV.
>>Like on later episodes of the X-FILES. Mind you, not many Hispanics are as tall, slim, and white as Monica Reyes / Annabeth Gish.
Do reconsider that statement. Those from Spain and Portugal count as Hispanics (specially since they started the whole Hispanic thingy). The Hispanic members of the NBA are well over 6'4". Many of the global soccer players are over 6'0". Short doesnt automatically equal Hispanic-ness.
DVN:A well thought,articulate and knowledgeable retort.Wow you sure showed me!
Hey, if that's all it took in your behalf, anytime, anytime."
DVN: I suspected you were stupid enough to take that statement as it was
>>And your point is what exactly? Did I see that pretty much everyone croaks at 30?
Were discussing that life spans were different in the ancient world, isn't that what you meant to imply? Unless you can't even grasp your own logic. But then, 'whatever' completely floored you, so its frankly little wonder.
DVN: I doubt you know how to read.I spoke of infant mortality rates and those who did survive did proceed to lives as long as nature,luck and lack of advanced medicine would allow. That is different from EVERYONE dying early
If you are so dense as to grasp the difference that is not my problem
>>You do realize there were some missing years in the life of Jesus which the Bible passes over in silence?
As is the same of Moses, contrary to what Cecil B DeMille may have taught you."
DVN: Where do you get this? What gives you the idea I get my Biblical knowledge from Cecil B Demille?
Anyway I wasnt discussing Moses
What fun though, the one person in history that can make em turn red with rage."
DVN: Who is this person and how would make "em" mad with rage?Actually who is "em"?
>>Jesus is hardly your typical Biblical character
tut tut tut. We can say that about God Himself, the main character of the whole entire book. But lots of biblical characters are atypical as well. Samson wasn't typical. David and Solomon weren't typical. Jabez and Hezekiah weren't typical. Do stop and consider before using all these non-sequitors."
Oh brother where to begin with this utter tripe?
Judaism which pervades the entire Bible has this little thing about men competing with Gods status and thats what Jesus claimed to do
And that was the basis of him founding another religion
What part of that dont you understand?
>>A very pre Judaic Near Eastern belief.
Could say the same regarding Judaism. Another non-sequitor. Do continue."
DVN: Do shut up. Arrogance and ignorance is a terrible combination
>>His tomb from where was supposed to have resurrected used to a shrine to Adonis(another dying and rising god)
But my, how you really open up your mouth and demonstrate all ignorance shaken together with a dash of conspiracy thinking.
DVN: Where is the conspiracy? Do tell.Gods,Shrines and groves of old religions are appropriated by new ones. Sometimes directly ,sometimes implicitly
>>The ancient Hebrews honored this Phoenician diety by using the word Adonai as a synonym for Lord.
If you say so, you're the "expert".
Again:
DVN: Why do you keep proving you are an idiot.You can use the quotation marks around expert only if I specifically made such a claim
Anyway Im no expert as this stuff is no state secret.If you dont know this, there are not enough slurs out there to adequately describe your limited intellect.
Whatever."
You shouldve closed with that in your first post.
You can't actually presume that she's marrying Jewish. Jews tend to have a very high rate of intermarriage.
And anyway, Reyes does not equal Jewish, it's an hispanic surname.
The kind of Mexican who is elite enough to marry an elite Jew from the USA typically has significant Jewish ancestry.
People from Spain aren't 'hispanic'. They're Spanish.
ysv_rao said...
>>DVN: I suspected you were stupid enough to take that statement as it was
NO, you were desperately trying to save face to cover for your abysmal ignorance. So if that was all that it took (of which I'm not surprised) then there you are.
Were discussing that life spans were different in the ancient world, isn't that what you meant to imply? Unless you can't even grasp your own logic. But then, 'whatever' completely floored you, so its frankly little wonder.
>>DVN: I doubt you know how to read.
As much as you know how to think before you actually speak.
>>I spoke of infant mortality rates and those who did survive did proceed to lives as long as nature,luck and lack of advanced medicine would allow.
Quite, and in most cases according to knowledge of the ancient world, that would roughly make the average lifespan between ages 35-55. In fact, a person of age 60 was considered to be very ancient, much as we would think regarding a person of around 85-90 today.
>>That is different from EVERYONE dying early
All relative in the end. Ancient lifespans were considerably shorter than they are today.
>>DVN: Where do you get this? What gives you the idea I get my Biblical knowledge from Cecil B Demille?
You did. You couldn't grasp whatever regarding all those shortcomings of yours.
>>Anyway I wasnt discussing Moses
We were discussing the entire bible. Two major characters from both eras.
>>Oh brother where to begin with this utter tripe?
Judaism just a bunch of tripe? My, but you are very uncharitable.
>>Judaism which pervades the entire Bible has this little thing about men competing with Gods status
That's one interpretation. Since few here are scholarly theologians we would do best to leave that to others who are infinitely more qualified than any one of us to decipher what exactly the scriptures tell us regarding the nature of the Almighty.
>>and thats what Jesus claimed to do
Again, unless you are an accredited scholar and/or theologian in either of the two faiths being discussed, then we really should just zip it up.
>>And that was the basis of him founding another religion
What part of that dont you understand?
The part that you actually think that rubbish. Christ did not attempt to start another religion. His followers got kicked out from the synagogue and thus, faced with Roman Persecution had to endure either torture prison or death formed little communities and managed to endure for the first circa three centuries of their founding before granted state acceptance as a legitimate religion. Unlike Judaism under the Roman rule, Christianity was an outlaw/illegal religion and the adherents were put to death in various ways as well as persecuted.
>>Do shut up. Arrogance and ignorance is a terrible combination
See, you do understand your own limitations. I didnt seriously think you were all that ignorant. There are definitely some redeeming qualities there in your case. Hard to find exactly where, but there are there.
>>DVN: Where is the conspiracy? Do tell.Gods,Shrines and groves of old religions are appropriated by new ones. Sometimes directly ,sometimes implicitly
In every single case? That's a bit conspiratorial. Such statements without actual proof. Need proof to back up these assertions. In some cases, certainly. But in every single case? No.
>>The ancient Hebrews honored this Phoenician diety by using the word Adonai as a synonym for Lord.
Proof. Such an assertion requires proof and not a base supposition. Also if you are not a Near East Scholar then youre just breaking wind on the post board and if you refuse to wipe it up, well....not surprising coming from one of obvious limitations.
>>DVN: Why do you keep proving you are an idiot.You can use the quotation marks around expert only if I specifically made such a claim
When you make a claim from history without any concrete evidence that is mere ignorance and the equivalent of which is breaking wind. Clean up your mess or else hire a scholar to do it for you.
>>Anyway Im no expert as this stuff is no state secret.
Its obvious you're no expert. Granted, it is well known according to the conspiratorial view of history but not to established historical facts that have been proven over time. So either clean up your mess or stop breaking wind.
>>If you dont know this, there are not enough slurs out there to adequately describe your limited intellect.
No one is arguing that this has occurred in various cases. What IS NOT established is that it is the case in every single major instance of history. Sometimes some religions have enough creativity about them that they do not need to "borrow" or steal or plagiarize from previous faiths before them.
>>You shouldve closed with that in your first post.
And you should stop breaking verbal wind. After awhile it leaves a foul order and stinks.
ben tillman said...
>>The kind of Mexican who is elite enough to marry an elite Jew from the USA typically has significant Jewish ancestry.
What is it with all these conspiracies? Not necessarily. Jews are only 2% of America they certainly aren't larger in Mexico and even the total numbers is simply infinitesimal to make a dent of difference.
But then it isn't surprising. Usually Jews tend to think that way "The only or the major smart, rich, bright folks among various non first world or non western cultures OBVIOUSLY a Jew is behind the good stuff or at least most of the only people worth knowing tend to have Jewish roots."
Again. Reyes is not a Jewish surname. And, those at Mexico's top elites are not all Jewish anymore than they are in Iceland.
I know sometimes that's a difficult concept to grasp since...well, the example here in America at times it does appear that way (with ample enough evidence to demonstrate it) that Jews control the media, academia, entertainment, government, etc.
But this does not equate to then applying the American example to other nations.
Fact: When looking for a new home in the New World, most Jews didn't immigrate to Mexico. They came to America.
Fact: There exists at present a very high rate of intermarriage of Jews with non Jews.
Thus it isn't all that hard to understand that unless it is conclusively proven beyond a doubt, this person is marrying a non Jewish Hispanic.
The emphasis that this lady wants to make is that she's being adopted into Hispanic culture. It's unclear if she'd willingly adopt her soon to be husband's surname if it were instead O'Reilly, Lloyd, or Williams.
Pepe Sanchez said...
People from Spain aren't 'hispanic'. They're Spanish.
Hispanic means one who originated from Espana which means Spain (in some cases it also would include Portugal as well) Espana = Hispanic.
Its understandable, though, why the new world hispanics dont want people from Spain and Portugal to be included in the mix. Although it would help bring up the IQs and overall genetical well being so they should really reconsider that silly idea of excluding the two nations that helped create the idea of hispanic.
What is it with all these conspiracies? Not necessarily. Jews are only 2% of America they certainly aren't larger in Mexico....
Certainly? How can you think you are certain? Mexico was a largely Jewish project from the start.
...and even the total numbers is simply infinitesimal to make a dent of difference.
Millions of Mexicans have significant Jewish ancestry. That's hardly an "infinitesimal" number.
Again. Reyes is not a Jewish surname.
But it's not a non-Jewish surname, either.
And, those at Mexico's top elites are not all Jewish anymore than they are in Iceland.
No one said they were all Jewish, but everything I see in Texas indicates that most of them are Jewish, or at least of Jewish descent.
I know sometimes that's a difficult concept to grasp since...well, the example here in America at times it does appear that way (with ample enough evidence to demonstrate it) that Jews control the media, academia, entertainment, government, etc.
But this does not equate to then applying the American example to other nations.
Where do you get the idea that this a theoretical inference rather than empirical observation?
Fact: When looking for a new home in the New World, most Jews didn't immigrate to Mexico. They came to America.
Fact: Mexico, Brasil, and other South American and Caribbean countries had much higher proportions of Jewish settlers than the colonies that turned into the USA did.
ben tillman:"Millions of Mexicans have significant Jewish ancestry. That's hardly an "infinitesimal" number."
Do you have any gene studies to back this up? None of the studies on the genetic background of Mexico that I have seen have indicated that "millions" of Mexicans have "significant Jewish ancestry."
The smallest mention of Jesus can still make some Jews plotz. Not infrequently it sparks a series of irrational statements radiating personal heat to an unseemly degree. Even Count Dracula merely hissed.
Ben Tillman may be thinking about conversos involved in the founding of the Mexican colony. There aren't reliable estimates of their numbers, nor is it clear how many Mexicans of today descend from them. He may also be thinking of Linda Chavez, who has been shown to have significant Jewish genetic ancestry. However, families like hers were unusual in the degree to which they attempted to preserve the bloodline by cousin marriage. Despite the care her ancestors took, some Native American admixture still crept in. Other Mexicans might have one or a few converso ancestors 400 years ago,which is hardly a significant blood tie. And many other Mexicans might have no significant Jewish ancestry.
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