My weekly culture column is up at Taki's Magazine:
You can read it there and comment on it here.
Although increasing ethnic diversity is widely assumed to make the arts more “vibrant,” the triumph of the ideology of multiculturalism appears to have instead helped cause pop music to stagnate stylistically.
There’s a fundamental connection between the growth of ethnic pride and the decline of generational rebellion, because to rebel against your forefathers is to rebel against your race. Thus, for a group of young black musicians to issue a manifesto pointing out that 30 years of rap is plenty would be racial treason. Although long exhausted musically, hip-hop has become so emotionally entwined with African-American identity that we’re all stuck with it.
You can read it there and comment on it here.
My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer
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71 comments:
When I watch "Auto-Tune the News" I feel that culture is changing rapidly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eooXNd0heM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBb4cjjj1gI
Steve, OT, but can you comment on the latest from Richard Nisbett. He did an interview with a race realist and was forced to take back the Milwaukee Project.
"I had heard rumors of the fraud. I asked several people who I took to be experts in the field of pre-K education who told me that the report by Garber (Howard Garber is another researcher who worked on the Milwaukee Project-Richard H.) could be trusted. I have since found out that that is dubious. People have been unable to get his data from him (unfortunately not all that uncommon) and they have not been able to get the exact details of what was done with the kids. Knowing what I now do I would never have cited the study. However, ignoring the study does not change the basic story: there are types of pre-K that produce modest enduring IQ change and that produce massive academic achievement gain."
Does this mean that Mexicans will start booming mariachi and not Latin hip hop out of their cars?
Steve, rap has become an integral part of black culture. I don't think multiculti is the reason that rap has not gone away. Rap will be here forever.
Rapping existed before "hip hop" and "battles" existed before they became popular in rap music.
Rap is the most basic music form that blacks seem to be in tune with since it combines everything they are good at: improvisation, ryhming, trash talking, showboating, and beat making.
Here's some numbers I crunched that support the idea of stagnation in rock music since the late '60s (the data suggest a peak in 1965):
Rolling Stone Top 500 songs
It could be biased by the people who composed it, who may not be as open-minded to newer bands, but it could be that it really was more innovative back then.
And BTW, there has been a huge innovation in popular music since rock and rap -- techno. Sounds like shit, most of it, but it's really big and is restricted to young white and East Asian people. It pretty much ignores rock music, so there's some generational conflict in there too.
It hasn't taken over the radio, but it's still big enough that every young person knows what it is, what it sounds like, which types they like. They expect to hear it in nightclubs, frat houses, etc., when they go out for the night.
Wang Chun, haha, that is so cool to have a link that is so descriptive - no need to click, that one hyperlinks "funny" without tags.
"Does this mean that Mexicans will start booming mariachi and not Latin hip hop out of their cars?"
More power to em! It can't get any worse than rap. Well, OK, I mean, it can't get any worse than rap unless Yoko Ono is involved.
"Rap is the most basic music form that blacks seem to be in tune with since it combines everything they are good at: improvisation, ryhming, trash talking, showboating, and beat making.". Yeah, explain that to Jimi Hendrix and Chuck Berry.
>>>>Yeah, explain that to Jimi Hendrix and Chuck Berry.
And what about Scott Joplin and all the early jazz/ragtime musicians? Rap is garbage, but you'll never convince me that jazz, ragtime, blues, are worthless. Question is, why did the music of black culture in America degenerate to where it is now?
About 25 years ago I was talking to some high school kids that lived next door. One was trying to argue that the 80s were better than the 60s.
"How so?" asked the other.
"Now we have state-of-the-art sound systems," said the first.
"Well, then they had state-of-the-art BANDS!" said the other.
So sad, and still true. I am so sick of turning on the car radio and hearing "Sympathy for the Devil" for the four-thousandth time in my life. In 1967, we thought most of the music of five or ten years earlier was hilarious, though great in its own naive way. Sha Na Na made a career of goofing on it.
A few months ago I heard an interview with Booker T, of "Booker T and the MGs," on NPR's "Fresh Air." He was so elegant in his manner, so intelligent and well-spoken, so knowledgable and respectful of the Western classical tradition. What happened to black musicians like him, of whom there were so many in the 1960s, producing timeless popular music? Black performers today are loathsome scum, for the most part. It's sad to see. A typical rap video inspires more racial contempt than any performance by the much-reviled Stepin Fetchit.
"Rap is garbage, but you'll never convince me that jazz, ragtime, blues, are worthless. Question is, why did the music of black culture in America degenerate to where it is now?"
Rap is garbage?????
I guess that is why it has become so popular? I guess that is why there is rap in just about every language and country in the world?
If you don't like rap, then fine but don't pretend that you represent some objective standard.
Rap was revolutionary when it came out and will continue to evolve.
Steve --
You're ignoring the elephant in the room.
Demographics. In order for new styles of music to break out, there needs to be a large enough market for that, which in turn implies a growing population of young people. The Black population has stagnated as much as the White one has. There are not enough new young Black men and women to create a market for something new.
Rap is yes, old and tired and stale, but so is White Rock. Which has not had anything new since the early 1990's and Grunge/Riot Grrrl nonsense. Both trace their declines not to "ethnic pride" (what, Whites are all tied to Adam Ant and U2 as their ethnic symbols?) But rather, pure numbers decline.
And of course today we hear that the world's first trans-ethnic person, Michael Jackson, has died.
Stevie Money, on the job and in fine form. That's why we pay you the big bucks, bud; original thought.
"Question is, why did the music of black culture in America degenerate to where it is now?"
Me: Jews?
Artie: No! Gay Jews!
"You're ignoring the elephant in the room."
Yeah, you've got Stevie Money pegged, always raging with the machine, the careerist PC chilled so-and-so is always ignoring the elephant in the room, especially demographics. *GROAN*
Interesting article. Makes me ask:
1. Who's the big artist now? This generations Nirvana, Beatles, etc.
2. Isn't eclectism just going to grow cause of iTunes and the internet? Does the radio exist now?
3. The Ramones were never really popular. RATT sold more albums. What's popular with critics isn't what's popular with regular people. Chuck Klosterman has explored this territory, look him up.
I definitely agree with this article's main thrust. Brilliant observation, Steve. Even in the difficult-to-say-anything-concrete world of social commentary, I think you're onto something.
If one recalls that one of the most important aspects of self-definition (indicated by the Barzun quote) is who you identify yourself 'against' - well, its hard to view your parents as the 'other' in any way when you are up to your ears in diversity's blessings!
Hard to make a big deal about clothing styles or choice of self-portrayal when in the midst of a demographic takeover!
Regarding the "Chinese-woman-boiled-mans-head-to-cure-daugthers-psychiatric-problems" article that I linked to above, well it looks like they sentenced the woman to death. And considering that the Chinese seem likely to be favorable and aggressive about eugenics in the near future, as discussed by Greg Cochran, and Richard Lynn in his book "Eugenics, the long term effect of using the death penalty and eugenics would seem to be culling these types of crazies, stupid, etc.
Also, it looks like the Chinese are even sentencing Nigerian drug dealers to death. http://www.danwei.org/front_page_of_the_day/nigerian_drug_dealer_was_sente.php It's a little too harsh for my taste (just dump him on the other side of the Great Wall, and never let him back in, ever), but I guess they really don't mess around. It says the Nigerian was sentenced with his Chinese girlfriend, and I can't help but wonder if that factored in. The Chinese really seem to hate it when blacks get on with their women. The more common white man/China woman seems to go largely unnoticed. Although this doesn't seem that surprising consider the heirarchical racial lens with which they seem to see the world and rank the races.
Now can anyone imagine sentencing a Nigerian drug dealer to death in the US? By anyone in power, let alone Holder and Obama? Can't see Holder and Obama allowing a sentencing of a "native son" like that to go through.
And for one last China story today (sorry, after coming across the 1st story accidentally, I hit up google and ended up with some interesting China stories), some refreshing candor you will find in the Chinese press, but for whatever reason will get nary a mention in the US: http://shanghaiist.com/2009/06/09/george_soro_and_his_jewish_nose_do.php
New music comes out of a specific geographic area or "music scene" and whites haven't had one in America since Seattle in the 90s.
Raw demographic totals are a wild card though. How many young people were actually involved in the Liverpool scene circa 1955-1965? Probably not that many just like not many actual people got the Seattle scene rolling.
On the other hand the baby boomers seem to have rocked the music world partly due to raw demographic numbers. But the boots on the ground congretated into geographic music scenes like Memphis and the Motor City and San Francisco and London etc.
America's cities themselves are probably more hostile than ever to working class white music scenes building up from the grassroots. Examples are Los Angeles, Memphis, Detroit, Baltimore and San Francisco where the only white residents left in large numbers are upper class if whites are present at all. You need working class people in large numbers for a good music scene.
"some refreshing candor you will find in the Chinese press"
O/T, but necessary, and I did post a previous comment on topic:
I read People's Daily regularly; without an inch of exaggeration it is better than any western media outlet I've seen. More open to debate, too, than the BBC for example, where I got my counterspinnning Iran comment kiboshed by the mods.
I did a test where I posted a comment at my local paper's comment section and a similar one at the People's Daily about the Tamil Tiger terrorist rallies they were having in my country. The one here (Canada) was censored, the one at PD you can read here:
http://posts.people.com.cn/bbs_new/filepool/data/html/d932506d2b21fba0cb07ac9a97bff54a22dd9672/b3573812/d_3573812_507648.html
excerpt: "Greetings from Ottawa Canada. The Tamils did the same thing here in my town, blocking traffic for 8 straight days, waving terrorist flags and such. The police were adamant that they would not arrest them, saying that they have a sworn duty to uphold the peace. Well they also have a sworn duty to enforce the law, though it seems they only enforce some laws.
The first line of my country"s Charter of Rights is "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law". Within this context, Canada is a failed state, few people recognize the supremacy of God, and the rule of law does not exist.
Can I get political asylum in China? I"m a good Java programmer, 11 years experience, good health, law abiding, frequent reader of People"s Daily. My country is profoundly more Marxist than China at the moment, we cannot compete in hi tech because the government forces companies to hire based on race and gender instead of merit. I must escape to a less Marxist country, such as China."
If that doesn't break your brain, the most commented article at the site will:
Don't hate the rich, be one of them
...
Admittedly, in a still developing nation like China, the general public seems to grudge accepting the fact that a rising number of high net worth individuals have emerged and the wealth they controlled has been dramatically expanded. Influenced by the decades-long planned economy, the Chinese have been accustomed to the Chinese-style egalitarianism, shaping the stereotyped mindset of 'eating from the same big pot.' Hence, a great many people cannot rub off the deeply ingrained prejudice against wealth, as they were taught that there was something wrong inherently with being rich.
...
A society without producing wealthy people is never progressing on the healthy track. Indeed, even the Bible says 'money is the root of all evils.' In this light, a highly commercialized society is not a noble one, either. But it is noteworthy that wealth in itself has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, and what matters most is how to manage it. Nevertheless, it will be beneficial to the general good of a society that, instead of bitterly envying the rich, more people are learning to become one of them.
english.peopledaily.com.cn/90002/96417/6628619.html
Meanwhile Newsweek and such are proclaiming "We're all Socialists Now". What a bizarre world we live in. The house organ of the "Communist" party of China is the best news source around and I'm genuinely asking them for political asylum to escape Marxism. Everything is backwards, man.
About a decade ago philosopher Roger Scruton noted that classical music, which had developed new styles with regularity for about 1,000 years, no longer did so. I've long noted that the last monumental classical composer was Shostakovich, who died in 1975. Anything since then, even if interesting like Tavener, just doesn't compare with even minor composers who went before, such as Johann Strauss of Debussy.
Likewise, it's hard to think of anything significant in recent painting, sculpture, or architecture.
The cause may be the waning of Christian culture, at least in the West; it's this culture which animated art for these past 1,000 years, since the barbarians were tamed (mostly) in Europe.
Steve mentioned multi-culti Istanbul of the 19th Century. But the problem there may have been Islam, long culturally stagnant. By contrast, the multi-culti Austro-Hungarian empire of the 19th Century was teeming with innovation, from Beethoven to Wittgenstein -- possibly because it was being done under the umbrella of a culturally astute Catholic monarchy.
Today, Christianity is moving to the East, with vast numbers of converts in China, Korea, and elsewhere. What that will bring we know not.
Good analysis on why black music has stagnated. Very fitting after the previous post on the arthritic status of non-Western civilizations circa 1500.
It's not satisfactory for whites, however, since white people can adopt black cultural customs subtly and be considered cool. There is almost no ethnic pride among Generation Y whites, and those that do are mostly loners.
My supposition is that Baby Boomers have claimed the rebellious image, and greedily have not passed it on to their heirs. The Nietzschean struggle to assert one's exist in the face of overwhelming power and will simply does not exist in Generation Y, which is disheartening, because the Baby Boomer's semi-anarchistic, sexual license is very akin to Wagner.
Wagner wrote hard remarks to Nietzsche's doctor that the Philosopher's own masturbation was contributing to his setting blindness. This ignite the volcanic temperament of the disciple, for the man who defended incest would resort to such one-handed tactics; Baby Boomers have nary a harsh thing to say about any sexual practice, no matter how silly it is. Baby Boomers let Generation Y have their rebellion, but it is of the same ilk as their own.
On a different note, Ang Lee believes American films are less distinctively American and more sold to a global market. Thus films are very anonymous, smooth entities without any notable features. Perhaps such can be said of our music?
"Rap is garbage?????
I guess that is why it has become so popular? I guess that is why there is rap in just about every language and country in the world?"
Yes, rap is garbage. It appeals to the lowest common denominator. It does not have a foothold in any country without a substantial low-IQ population.
The notion that spoken word, backed by synthesized drum beats, is some kind of innovation... well, it's laughable. Rap is a regression to the most basic, primitive form of music. In a society that has embraced the worst of everything, the prominence of rap is one of the most glaring indicators of our cultural decline.
I think the rate of innovation in modern music may have slowed in the '80s, but it froze (for various genres) in the early '90s, not 1979. MOst noticeable was the fossilisation of hip hop into gangsta rap; from its origins in Black Nationalist NWA, it rapidly turned into the bitches-n-hos stuff we've been stuck with, seemingly forever.
Wang Chun is a white guy who doesn't know much about the Chinese but wants to use them as a blank slate to project all his not so socially acceptable ideas.
African drug dealers.
The Chinese execute a ton of drug dealers from China. In the link below, RT reports five Kenyans were sentenced to death in a short period.
http://www.russiatoday.ru/Top_News/2009-06-06/China_to_Execute_More_African_Drug_Dealers.html?fullstory
"It says the Nigerian was sentenced with his Chinese girlfriend, and I can't help but wonder if that factored in. The Chinese really seem to hate it when blacks get on with their women."
Translation： I get furious when I see black men with white women.
"heirarchical racial lens with which they seem to see the world and rank the races.”
Chuckles. You are here because that is the way you see the world. Why are you so timid that you can't assert your views but project it on another people.
--
And considering that the Chinese seem likely to be favorable and aggressive about eugenics in the near future, as discussed by Greg Cochran, and Richard Lynn
They base their views on Singapore which once gave grad students incentives for having children. But the Chinese don't appear all that interested in eugenics. Some in Beijing lobbied for the one child restriction to be lifted on parents with university degrees. The government shut the door on that idea.
Rap is the reason I listen to AM radio
Question is, why did the music of black culture in America degenerate to where it is now?
This stuff is not "music." It's best described the way graffiti was described during the '70s: It's a cry from the ghetto. A cry by lost, fatherless children being nurtured by incompetent, dim-witted women in socially chaotic conditions.
Black performers today are loathsome scum, for the most part. It's sad to see. A typical rap video inspires more racial contempt than any performance by the much-reviled Stepin Fetchit.
This sentiment encapsulates that of many blacks, who, from the beginning, saw this rap-hip-hop garbage for what it is, unlike the pandering whites who want so much to be "correct" and will accept any kind of debris coming from the "deprived and downtrodden." There has always been a population of low-life whites, who look to the ethnics for their perverse entertainment.
By the way, to that poster who accused others of pretending to be "objective," I don't pretend to be objective; my notions come strictly from my subjective soul. Who can be objective when listening to garbage?
"why did the music of black culture in America degenerate to where it is now?"
Follow the money. Who invested in it during the early days? What labels pushed it? And yes - hip-hop is the lowest possible GARBAGE, despite the number of tasteless wannabe-badass sheep who purchase it now.
To me the real 'end', or the nail in the coffin, was right after the early to mid 80's, after the 'second British invasion'. That was a period of LBO's, consolidation, 'raiding'. Many major houses whose main raison d'etre was artistic creation and production (admittedly for profit) simply became profit centers for huge conglomerates. At that point, the main goal was to 'buy low and sell high'. Hip-hop simply became a 'commodity', and what a convenient one ! No big contracts, no need for real talent and a vast market in which no real trend was apparent. Since those who 'manufacture' that crap also control many of the outlets thru which music is marketed, it was a given that rap would stay with us as long as there is money to be made. I don't really see any 'cultural' factor at play, but rather a void that was filled by whatever the majors stumbled upon. It could have been something even worse, like country music, which does not relate any more to 'suburban life' that hip-hop. At least rappers don't actually pretend they can sing.
"Rap is garbage?????
I guess that is why it has become so popular? I guess that is why there is rap in just about every language and country in the world?"
I remember once when my son was about 4 or 5, he saw some kids doing a cute little rap on TV. He gave me a strange look and asked what they were doing. I told him totally straight faced that it was a song. He replied absolutely incredulous, "That's is not a song! They are just,...uuh,...uuh!" It was so innocent and honest, yet visceral. He was so disgusted. I just had to laugh. He still hates rap.
America's cities themselves are probably more hostile than ever to working class white music scenes building up from the grassroots. Examples are Los Angeles, Memphis, Detroit, Baltimore and San Francisco where the only white residents left in large numbers are upper class if whites are present at all. You need working class people in large numbers for a good music scene."
I'll add the Washington DC metro area. In the 50's-70's it was big on bluegrass. Even the public radio had hours of bluegrass every day.
But the working class whites have been replaced by Latinos. I guess they have gone back to West Virginia and Southwest Virginia ..? Live performance has greatly dwindled; politicians don't hire blue-grass bands for their rallies any more, and the hours of bluegrass on the radio are now on the web.
House music and electro have become massively popular amongst upper middle class whites where I live. It's definitely not your parents' music.
Indie rock, which sounds like a mix of folk music and wuss rock from the 90's, is big with a lot of people too (girls, hipsters). That is more of a continuation of the older generation's music.
I guess that is why it has become so popular? I guess that is why there is rap in just about every language and country in the world?
Just like McDonald's?
"Does this explain why East Asians are so proud of and quick to defend Oriental medicine? "
Not only Asians, but SWPLs love "alternative" medicine. It gives them yet another outlet to rebel against the Man (in this case: the drug companies). But unfortunately for them, it's not NAM-based, so it doesn't make them look that open-minded.
Steve,
Your theory is torpedoed by the fact that the generation gap has largely disappeared among race-unconscious "whiter" people as well. The rise of grups, the fact that your local 14 year old is on average going to be wearing the same AC/DC or Iron Maiden T-shirt as your little brother did back in the day, etc.
So no generation gap before the babyboomers and no generation gap afterwards. In the interests of economy can we not speculate that it was something particular to that era that resulted in the generation gap? My money is on the Negroization of American pop culture- especially in the area of music- combined with the emergence of mass media that homogenized all local youth cultures into a single national youth culture. Or, in other words, now that the hypersexualized and expressive norms of Black America are pretty much part of the air we breathe there is not much left for children to shock their parents with.
Rap is often pretty stupid, but it's still better than techno and house music. Arguably black taste has not degenerated as fast as white taste has.
I'm surprised that Steve has his kids learning to play rock music. Seems very SWPL to me. I find it very discouraging how many well educated white parents have turned their back on European classical music and think it's cool to share Deep Purple or the Clash with their kids, and encourage their kids to take classes in rock guitar. I can't imagine anything more anathema to the original spirit of rock. Maybe the next generation of white privileged kids will rebel by relearning the European musical tradition. Long live Bartok and Wagner.
This topic reminded me of a Jim Kalb blog post about pop culture's stagnation:
http://turnabout.ath.cx:8000/node/1590
Couple of Kalb's ideas seem to reinforce some of Steve's points:
"The '60s were a black hole, and once you fall into a black hole you never get out. Actually, it's even worse than that. "Do your own thing" puts each of us in his own black hole, and so makes further development impossible. Everybody just goes around in the private circle of his own thoughts and desires."
"Power today exists by imitating its absence. Government is here to help you. "Diversity" means uniformity, "multiculturalism" abolition of culture, "tolerance" strict rules on what to do and say. Why shouldn't "style" mean eternal repetition of the same?"
What good is rap if all the lyrics are jibbrish? It is actually a great vehicle to deliver a message. Just like folk music was for leftish beatniks and hippies. Forget about the negative messages rap usually portrays, the words for the most part have been written by fools.
but for whatever reason will get nary a mention in the US: http://shanghaiist.com/2009/06/09/george_soro_and_his_jewish_n
If you're going to drop links here without surrounding them with HTML tags, you've got to either make sure they're very short, or you have to separate them from surrounding text with breaks on either side so readers can double-click them and copy-paste.
They way you presented your link makes it impossible for me to read the Jewish Conspiracy Theory. :(
"There’s a fundamental connection between the growth of ethnic pride and the decline of generational rebellion, because to rebel against your forefathers is to rebel against your race. Thus, for a group of young black musicians to issue a manifesto pointing out that 30 years of rap is plenty would be racial treason"
There's nothing in hip-hop that promotes respect of one's elders even though that's a traditional value among blacks. Besides, older black people like jazz and blues and hate rap. I followed a thread on a conservative (socially, not politically) black blog noting that traditionally African Americans have been so musically innovative that they invented a new form of music every few decades but now the most prominent black musicians can't even play instruments. Many people, apparently, defend rappers' inability to play instruments because they are too poor to afford it when a great blues guitarist like John Lee Hooker was born to sharecroppers. Black slaves, who are more disadvantaged than any rapper could ever be, invented the banjo to solve the problem of being too poor to afford instruments. Though to be fair popular music in general is old and tired and no one would ever accuse Britney Spears of being a brilliant instrumentalist.
It must be sad to have this much self-knowledge.
Since we're discussing multiculturalism/multiracialism and it's effect on the original host society, it would be interesting to see how it is viewed in a radically different context. Here's a recent opinion piece from the Phillipines harshly criticizing the "South Korean invasion": http://businessmirror.com.ph/home/opinion/12312-the-south-korean-invasion-.html
A few points:
1. In this mainstream article, one finds a language and tone one would only find in VDare, if even, in the US. Note that the word "vibrant" is never used in the article.
2. The author notes that Japanese and Korean are easily confused and sound similar, and says that this is because Korea was under Japanese occupation. They can sound similar to non Koreans & non Japanese but this is not a result of Japan's occupation of Korea for about 40 years or so.
2. NE Asians and SE Asians are not as close culturally, socially as many may believe. Genetic data suggests that they are probably not as close as it may seem to the casual observer in the West.
3. Koreans are generally racist towards SE Asians and despise/disparage them, while at the same time admiring/respecting Western white civilization/people. The single goal of migrating to a place like the Phillipines and engaging in commerce is to become wealthy. Whereas in the US, while the goal may be similar (become wealthy, hold a prestigious profession) different avenues are generally required to meet those goals, such as an elite education, and there is an implicit assimilation or orientation toward Western norms that is involved in such a process. Also the trappings and norms of Western white civ are valued not simply for the better life it provides in the US, but for their own sake bc/ of the belief that it is one of the superior cultures/peoples/civs in the world. So you find it valued even in their homogeneous native homeland of Korea.
4. Commercial activity by Koreans among a population with lower levels of achievement/ability such as in the Phillipines, South Central LA, would appear to stir up more resentment/discontent than it would among a population of equal or greater ability/talent, such as the dominant white population of the US that feels (at least historically, not sure about present and future) secure in more prominent, powerful, prestigious positions, and looks somewhat down upon the lower commercial activity the Koreans would be engaged in (laundromats, convenience stores, etc.). This should change of course in the near future with increasing diversity.
5. The fact that this influx of Koreans is accompanied by the large scale business involvement of a national symbol, a Korean corporation, seems to aggravate the "invasion" perception.
6. Similar pattern we see historically, and still today: indigenous elite invites foreign immigration, which leads to friction with indigenous native masses.
7. As we see almost everywhere, at a certain point the commercial activity of the immigrants and new immigrants becomes increasingly devoted to serving the immigrant population itself (foreign language businesses, Korean style hot spas, restaurants, etc.) rather than the indigenous population as originally intended.
8. The most important takeaway, is of course that it's not simply a matter of skilled vs. unskilled, talented/law abiding vs. dysfunctional immigration, as the discussion often seems to end up being. Skilled/talented immigration is not the holy grail many make it out to be.
"It must be sad to have this much self-knowledge."
why? because you imagine yourself being sad if you were possessed of such self-knowledge? Fascinating to explore the origins and ultimate end of this, your 'must'. One man's must is another man's maybe!
Your theory is torpedoed by the fact that the generation gap has largely disappeared among race-unconscious "whiter" people as well. The rise of grups, the fact that your local 14 year old is on average going to be wearing the same AC/DC or Iron Maiden T-shirt as your little brother did back in the day, etc. -- quote
Not true. SWPL's are not race-unconscious. They are very conscious. They just believe it requires acting in a SWPL way.
If you like rap, then fine but don't pretend that you represent some objective standard.
Rap is often pretty stupid, but it's still better than techno and house music.
Uh.. you know of course that a lot of early rap sampled Kraftwerk, the greatest techno band of all time. And techno is hella fun to dance to.
"Everything is backwards, man."
It's only backwards when you think in terms thrown out for proles. China today is far closer to a variant of national socialism than communism, no matter the one-covers-all terms. A communist revolution in China, starring all Chinese players, is different than one in Russia, with its battling Jewish and Slavic groups. Post-revolution, China never had an ethnic minority in charge of the majority population, as in Hungary, Rumania, etc...Communism is a label that must be applied accordingly (i.e. bio-culturally).
I'm with you. Thanks for the heads up on the People's Daily.
I suspect the exceptional thing isn't that most current popular music is complete crap, but rather that there have been recent times when it wasn't.
It takes time to get used to any style of music, and to kind of train your mind to listen for the right stuff--that's why most people would rather have dental work done than sit through a long opera. Once you've done that, you can find some pretty clever and interesting rap, IMO, but most of it is stupid, uncreative crap. Because most popular culture is. (And if you're going to put in some time to learn to listen to music that's unpleasant at first, I suspect you stand to gain more by learning to listen to jazz or opera than to rap, or (say) heavy metal or punk.)
By the way, in spite of my earlier comment about "black music" degenerating to current rap trends, white people still have to explain to me how they can go from Bach and Beethoven to the most moronic techno/heavy metal trash pumping out of speakers throughout Europe.
The latest it thang, the latest sensation, weezy or some such, has two things going for him:
1) he has a speech impediment
and
2) he is clearly retarded
P.S.
May I respectfully recommend rap artist AMG?
"China today is far closer to a variant of national socialism ..."
Bullcrap, dude. China has an economy that is far closer to a free market than the US has seen since the 1970's or earlier.
Oh, maybe you meant:
"America today is far closer to a variant of national socialism...." There, fixed it for you ... uhhh ... I think.
As for our China expert, the spelling is Wang Chung, not Wang Chun, as in "let's Wang Chung tonight". Get it right, people, you've got readers out there, ya know?
Among whites rap is mostly a kitchy and ironic joke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc4O6v74obs
Has been for years. I think that a certain segment of blacks still take it seriously adds to the joke, though no one would come out and say it. But think about it. For a joke to work, you need a straight man.
"African drug dealers.
The Chinese execute a ton of drug dealers from China. In the link below, RT reports five Kenyans were sentenced to death in a short period"
My point wasn't so much that they're executing drug dealers, but that they're executing foreign Negroes.
"It says the Nigerian was sentenced with his Chinese girlfriend, and I can't help but wonder if that factored in. The Chinese really seem to hate it when blacks get on with their women."
Translation： I get furious when I see black men"
Go to China. Ask them. Then ask them again. Then have a few rounds of baijiu with them. And then ask them one more time.
"heirarchical racial lens with which they seem to see the world and rank the races.”
Chuckles. You are here because that is the way you see the world. Why are you so timid that you can't assert your views but project it on another people."
Whoops, I forgot. You're absolutely right. I'm just completely projecting. The Chinese are good Communists, and all good Communists believe that Man is completely a product of his class. Biology is bogus. The Chinese are not racialist at all. So nothing to see there. Move along.
"But the Chinese don't appear all that interested in eugenics. Some in Beijing lobbied for the one child restriction to be lifted on parents with university degrees. The government shut the door on that idea."
Cochran and Lynn are talking about the future. Not about the present and old school natalist policies. Your point doesn't refute anything at all.
"Wang Chun is a white guy who doesn't know much about the Chinese but wants to use them as a blank slate to project all his not so socially acceptable ideas."
Do you know any white guys with the name "Wang Chun"?
If you're the one disputing the idea that the Chinese are not racial egalitarian universalists and that they are racialists (by Western standards) that view the world partially through a racial lens and judge or rank if you will the various races of man, then you are the one who either doesn't know anything about the Chinese or for some reason or other wants to project a different image of the Chinese. I don't care if you're Chinese or not.
'wang chun':
"Koreans are generally racist towards SE Asians and despise/disparage them, while at the same time admiring/respecting Western white civilization/people."
I've had the experience of mainland (ie Communist) Chinese telling me they admired Western civilisation, and regretted its apparent passing. I find this interesting considering that the West has often been bad news for China.
"America today is far closer to a variant of national socialism..."
Yeah, keep repeating Lew Rockwell-types. Their keen insights regarding the "free market" as some type of measuring stick for the national health of a people are unassailable.
"If you're the one disputing the idea that the Chinese are not racial egalitarian universalists and that they are racialists (by Western standards) that view the world partially through a racial lens and judge or rank if you will the various races of man"
Again you don't know anything about China. Just more of the same. Using distant people as a blank slate to timidly express your own views.
The Chinese know about as much of racial hierarchy as anyone in the West. That is they can make plain observations about differences but there is nothing in Chinese intellectual/common thought that thinks systematically about race. I've never encountered anyone in China holding to the idea of "hierarchy" like it appears on this site. That's your idea.
Of course I refute you. There must be some basis for this prediction. If the Chinese show lack of concern for eugenics then how will the idea just lock on in the future (become policy without any root).
"Yeah, keep repeating Lew Rockwell-types. "
Maybe you don't have an original thought in your head, Anonymous, but speak for yourself. What I wrote is from experience in China.
I'd like you to do 5 things in this country and see if you don't get arrested, or have a big fear of being arrested:
a) Walk down the street drinking a beer.
b) Teach a class in school while chewing tobacco or smoking.
c) Start your own small business over a 3 day period.
d) Pay just 15 % of your income in taxes (oh, tell them that's how it is in China; refer them to me if you have any problems).
e) Say some of the non-PC things that people write on this blog in front of a crowd.
Then, go to China and do the same things without worry.
Possibly you were comparing 1970's China vs. the US when you made your remark, but 30-40 years have gone by. We have been losing freedoms here at the rate that they build coal-fired power plants in China.
Pretty f__cking sad.
That is they can make plain observations about differences but there is nothing in Chinese intellectual/common thought that thinks systematically about race. I've never encountered anyone in China holding to the idea of "hierarchy" like it appears on this site.
There was a Chinese TV drama series in which a Chinese female (doctor?) on a humanitarian mission in Africa fell in love with a (rather clownish) local.
My Shanghainese landlady was explaining this show to me and remarked when she got to this part:
"Now how is that possible? Dating black man? Ha ha." From the way she said it, the woman might as well have been dating a pony. I doubt she would say the same about a white guy. That's hierachy for you.
The Chinese value intellectual tradition, commerce, technology, and fair complexion. It's very hard not to see that they put Europeans and East Asians above the rest. That said, the power of learned stupidity on the observer's part is not to be underestimated.
There must be some basis for this prediction. If the Chinese show lack of concern for eugenics ...
See this book review of Lynn's Eugenics (especially the table at the bottom).
"The Chinese know about as much of racial hierarchy as anyone in the West."
There is nothing to "know." There is no technical, objective "hierarchy" to be known or understood. It's subjective in that it's how they organize their biases.
"That is they can make plain observations about differences but there is nothing in Chinese intellectual/common thought that thinks systematically about race."
I never said that there was something in Chinese intellectual/common thought or that they "systematically" think about race. Most people do not think "systematically" about anything. It's more of an "emergent" phenomenon. They make "plain observations about differences" as you put it, and these observations then end up forming biases, making up outlooks, etc.
"Of course I refute you. There must be some basis for this prediction. If the Chinese show lack of concern for eugenics then how will the idea just lock on in the future (become policy without any root)."
No, you don't refute me. Neither of us can definitively refute the other on this question. The main point of Cochran and Lynn's is that in a hyper competitive environment in the future, and with advanced eugenic technology available, China would be expected to take advantage of that technology. If the future consists of a dominant China facing little or no competition from a moribund West, the incentive to employ eugenics would not be as strong. History suggests that the Chinese are just as likely to maintain and strive for stability (to the point of stasis) as they are to seek radical change.
"Again you don't know anything about China. Just more of the same. Using distant people as a blank slate to timidly express your own views."
Since you keep asserting things about me, I will do the same. You either don't know anything about China, or for some reason or other really want to argue against the idea that many Chinese people hold what could be called "racialist" views about the world.
And since you've made presumptions about and have attacked my identity so far, I'll try to take a stab at yours. Judging from some of your awkward diction, you're an individual of Chinese descent who's studied in the higher education system of the US and has really assimilated some of the stuff taught at US universities (i.e. only the West can be racist; non Western peoples like Chinese aren't racist, if they are it's because they "learned" it from the West), or otherwise wants to project the idea that the Chinese conform to the proper views on race promoted as dogma by US universities.
The first time I read Chinese news sites, I was surprised at the LACK of propaganda. If anything, they're overly modest and constantly understating the country's capabilities.
My favourite is the Opinion section. Here's an example:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90780/91342/6686661.html
The cocky yet rational tone is pretty awesome.
"The Chinese know about as much of racial hierarchy as anyone in the West. That is they can make plain observations about differences but there is nothing in Chinese intellectual/common thought that thinks systematically about race. I've never encountered anyone in China holding to the idea of "hierarchy" like it appears on this site. That's your idea."
A lady from China (who was actually a member of the Communist party before she married an American) told me that retarded people and persons who are thought to be unworthy -- I forget how she defined that -- are not allowed to breed. They are sterilized.
As far as "not thinking systematically about race", well, I don't know about that. The Chinese have been very aware of themseleves as a race--the Han people. They have seen themselves as superior. They've been in tense trade and conflict with Westerners (aka big-nosed foreign devils) for several centuries now. When they were trading with Africans in the 15th or 16th century they were offered black slaves which offer they rejected with horror. Since slavery was part of Chinese culture at the time, I don't gather it was the "slave" part of that offer that provoked the horror.
That being said, of course they don't think "systematically" about race. Neither did the Europeans before that incredibly stupid decision to start dragging black slaves out of Africa was made by a few mercenaries who convinced their rulers. Much in the way a few corporate giants convinced the US government to sell the country from under us. But I digress.
Anyway, if the Chinese have not thought "systematically" and "intellectually" as you define those term, about race in the past, they sure are going to do some catching up as Africans make their presence more and more known in that country.
>>>>>"Do you know any white guys with the name "Wang Chun"?
Hey "Wang Chun", I think the idea was that you're a white guy pretending to be an East Asian (fairly easy to do on the internet). Seems likely to me.
China has an economy that is far closer to a free market than the US has seen since the 1970's or earlier.
No, Dave. Simply untrue. The State still controls vast swaths of the Chinese economy. And local government officials and the Red Army have their hands in all sorts of business. Do a little research before making such a ridiculous statement. Not to mention the fact that the US economy is much "freer" today by any measure than it was in the 1950s-70s when trucking and airlines were regulated, Labor unions controlled the manufacturing sector, Nixon even instituted wage and price controls, taxes were higher, etc. etc. Do you know what "free market" actually means?
Neither did the Europeans before that incredibly stupid decision to start dragging black slaves out of Africa was made by a few mercenaries who convinced their rulers.
Your comment was fine until it veered off into Leftist Historical Fantasy.
Among whites rap is mostly a kitchy and ironic joke
I know this much, listening to rap and "racial harmony" are not joined at the hip. I know tons of blue collar types who listen to rap and don't care for blacks.
If you don't like rap, then fine but don't pretend that you represent some objective standard.
As a white man, I detest the idea of young whites listening to rap, and I consider my position to represent an objective standard.
Peter A: You don't know anything about modern-day China (I have been there multiple times), and you also don't know much about the US.
Yeah, the airlines are deregulated as far as ROUTES + FARES!! They are, on the other hand, the most regulated companies on the planet. Some is for good, and some is not for good. The same goes for trucking.
Grow up before spouting off this gibberish. I have lived in the free US, and I am now living in the socialist US. I can tell the difference very easily.
Now go try to buy a 6-pack of beer as a 41-year old guy without showing an ID. The people know you are over 21, yet now it seems one needs a government-approved ID to buy alcohol at any age.
Now, do the same thing in China. Come back with a 6-pack (yeah, it's not bud, but it'll do).
Oh, maybe you are not old enough to try this experiment, Peter A. In that case, just don't talk to me about freedom, when you wouldn't know it if it bit you in the ass.
I've always wondered how China's One Child Policy would affect the country eugenically. I've concluded that it will be a net good thing, because smart people are going to barely have any kids anyway, so preventing dumb people from having their customary 8+ kids would be a good thing. However, the One Child Policy does not apply to so called "ethnic minorities" (most of whom are pretty damn Chinese anyway), and, I think, rural areas. This may be detrimental, since the backwards rural people don't seem very smart, but who knows; maybe they could unlock their "true" potential if properly nourished and educated.
The really obvious thing that helps is the fact that China does not accept immigrants, since they're already overpopulated. They do however, make SOME exceptions: an active campaign to bring the top Chinese minds living overseas, back home:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-04/16/content_7682118.htm
There's also the interesting story of Dr. Zhengrong Shi. This guy was a scientist who completed a PhD at the University of New South Wales in Australia in a record amount of time. He obtained Australian citizenship, and went on to be a leading researcher on solar panel development, but the Chinese government actually approached him and offered him $6 million US dollars to return to China and set up a solar power company there. He accepted, setting up his company Suntech, and is now a billionaire.
So the difference between China and the U.S. in immigration policy is pretty mind blowing.
Dave Lincoln, shouldn't you be over at Free Republic, what with your ALL CAPS and EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!! and bizarre old man put-downs?
Besides, maybe over there they'd be interested in the views of the only white to ever visit China.
"Now go try to buy a 6-pack of beer as a 41-year old guy without showing an ID. The people know you are over 21, yet now it seems one needs a government-approved ID to buy alcohol at any age."
Man, I've seen this example used a thousand times in discussions on comparative national economies. Enough already.
Bob Douglas, leave me along with your punctuation complaints.
Plenty of white people have been to China, you idiot. It's just that one who comments on the place should have his facts straight. The previous commenter I was replying too obviously didn't. It wouldn't really be so hard to learn about the US either, when you already live here. Open your eyes, that's all I ask.
"Man, I've seen this example used a thousand times in discussions on comparative national economies. " What, man? I was talking about economics there. I don't know how you can read through that and think I was talking about economics. I was talking about freedom. Keep up, or quit posting idiotic replies, one.
"Not only Asians, but SWPLs love "alternative" medicine. It gives them yet another outlet to rebel against the Man (in this case: the drug companies). But unfortunately for them, it's not NAM-based, so it doesn't make them look that open-minded."
OK. Enough already. "Alternative medicine" is what it says it is. An alternative to allopathic medicine. Except for surgical fix-its, most medicine is about giving the best drug to zap the symptoms, not about dealing with the body holistically. Don't trust anybody whose high-flown livelihood depends on people getting sick and not getting better.
I don't really care if this sounds SWPL or "Oriental" because it makes sense. At one time, washing your hands before operating on someone was a tiresome "alternative" many mainstream physicians rejected until enough studies proved the point. The whole history of medicine is the story of "alternatives" that get tried and tested and accepted and maybe kept, maybe not.
There are things worth "rebelling" against and this has nothing to do with one's age.
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