People always get mad at me whenever I suggest that Zimbabwe might hold some suggestions about South Africa. Yet, it's as if something happened to Canada, you wouldn't be too surprised if it later happened to the U.S.
They tend to sputter when denouncing the very idea that Zimbabwe is just South Africa with a 14 year head start. Everything is so different!
I've finally figured out one relevant difference. The old Rhodesians had to work, hard and competently, for their wealth. They were world class farmers, and then during the embargo of 1965-1980, they built up their own industries.
So, when the new rulers of Zimbabwe started murdering the farmers, stealing their farms, and driving off the other people who knew how to do stuff, it all went to hell.
In contrast, much of South Africa's economy is mineral, which generates huge profits with small skilled workforce; the mines' wealth can paper over much shortfall in other parts of the economy.
They tend to sputter when denouncing the very idea that Zimbabwe is just South Africa with a 14 year head start. Everything is so different!
I've finally figured out one relevant difference. The old Rhodesians had to work, hard and competently, for their wealth. They were world class farmers, and then during the embargo of 1965-1980, they built up their own industries.
So, when the new rulers of Zimbabwe started murdering the farmers, stealing their farms, and driving off the other people who knew how to do stuff, it all went to hell.
In contrast, much of South Africa's economy is mineral, which generates huge profits with small skilled workforce; the mines' wealth can paper over much shortfall in other parts of the economy.
My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer
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89 comments:
Steve -- with all due respect, I think the similarities outweigh the differences.
The main difference is that Zimbabwe started with a much smaller base of whites and much earlier. Give South Africa a few more years under Zuma. Once Mandela dies, I think we're going to see some 28 Days Later like violence in the streets.
Something tells me though that the media won't be covering it...even if there are Twitter messages.
But to run a sophisticated economy you need well paid consumers, and don't forget about the small problem of food.
If and when the whites are intimidated out of the country, this consumer base will largely disappear (as will the food). Because, as you must realize, you can't just re-cycle dollars without adding value at each step, and still pretend you have an economy.
You cannot feed, clothe, and gainfully employ the black masses of South Africa without a real and growing economy. One that depends solely on one very uncertain industry (minerals) just does not cut the mustard. A lot of the gold mines are very marginal and have to shut down when the price of gold normalises, which it does from time to time.
And you can kiss the tourism industry goodbye when the population reacts as it must do to mass unemployment-with violent interpersonal crime.
No,it is very possible for SA to go in the direction of Zimbabwe. But en route there, something different will happen; and then we will see where the "International Community" stands on the issue of Western Civilization, or indeed, any form of civilization whatsoever.
Anon.
I just finished _Bring Me My Machine Gun_ about South Africa since the end of apartheid. I thought you were going in a different direction with this post. In the 1980s American conservatives pointed out that South Africa practiced affirmative action for Afrikaners after the 1948 victory of the National party. The economy was also more statist than Reagan era US conservatives would have liked. One passing reference in the book said that Black Zimbabweans who fled to South Africa were often very well educated. The school boycotts after the 1976 Soweto uprising had damaged the educations of many Black South Africans. This difference fed some of the recent resentment against immigrants from Zimbabwe and other African countries. Black Economic Empowerment was a major theme of the book highlighting how ANC political insiders have become very rich by being cut into mostly white businesses. The macroeconomic policies have generally been good up to now, but one reason that there was a surplus for a couple of years before the current world economic crisis is that the government officials are too incompetent to spend the money alloted to them to do their jobs.
True. South Africa will limp along for a bit longer than Zimbabwe did because of its mineral wealth, but it will eventually suffer the same fate.
Allow me to chip in. I'm from there. To paraphrase t99, you are out of your depth when reporting about matters relating to Africa... No, seriously, you do have a point, but some other issues need to be mentioned as well.
South Africa's farmers, also known as those infamous Boere, are at least as resourceful and competent as Rhodesia’s were. Many of them are the same people. Many Afrikaners had and even do still own farms in Rhodesia and vice-versa. The Congo, Zambia, Mozambique and Angola have all asked the South African government to please send Afrikaners, yes those white racist bastards, to help them grow enough food to survive. So much for ordinary blacks, without an ideological agenda which comes from the NYT, hating Afrikaners.
You make another mistake: Rhodesia also had a substantial mining sector. The mining houses in both countries were the usual suspects during the wars, in that they were in favour of black governments in the hope that they would outlast them. Oppenheimer was especially mischievous in this regard. Mugabe was in the end greedier than they reckoned. Mugabe is only still alive because he has stolen the diamond mines. His soldiers are rotated through those mines and make children and women dig for them. The diamonds are then their pay so that they stay loyal to Mugabe. This is because Mugabe has no more cash.
There is still no guarantee that South Africa will not go the Zim route. More than 4mio. Zimbabweans, who have fled Mugabe, are sitting in South Africa illegally. Most will stay. The government has given them quasi-amnesty and Zimbabwe is now considered an undeclared province of South Africa.
The main reason why the country has not collapsed is that the white middle class, mostly composed of Afrikaners, are paying 70% of the taxes and keeping enough skill in the country to keep it afloat. The government thanks them by encroaching on their rights on a daily basis, lowering services levels, destroying the health service and education, letting barbaric criminals loose on them and vilifying them daily. Whenever they see fit, ignorant trash outfits like CNN, Spiegel or NYT chip in.
The other factor is the radicalization of blacks. There are enough blacks who realize that if the Afrikaners eventually leave en-masse, the gravy train gets derailed immediately. This is why Zuma has been meeting unofficially with Afrikaner leaders and why Dr. Mulder, who is the leader of one of the ethnic Afrikaner parties, was asked to come aboard the government as deputy-minister of agriculture. Due to the governments fiddling in land rights in order to start stealing more land from Afrikaners, the food supply is on knife’s edge and once that tips you are looking at Zim 2.0.
Zuma is much more intelligent than Mugabe, Mandela and Mbeki in that he has understood this basic equation. Mulder’s deputy post is only a camouflage because Zuma cannot elevate him too high in fear of making his fellow blacks jealous. Afrikaners and Zulus had a good working relationship prior to British colonialism and eventually Apartheid. This is what Zuma and Mulder are trying to revive. If it works South Africa will not return to its former glory, but it will also steer clear of Zim 2.0. This is a cooperation based on ethnic self-consciousness and mutual respect, something the NYT will never understand. For the NYT it’s always multiculturalism unless it’s Israel, then its mono-culturalism. This growing symbiosis between Afrikaners and Zulus is flying under the radar because the liberal establishment cannot understand that two ethnically self-conscious peoples can actually cooperate. In their playbook it should be war. So they just ignore it.
In contrast, much of South Africa's economy is mineral, which generates huge profits with small skilled workforce; the mines wealth can paper over much shortfall in other parts of the economy.
South Africa might lie somewhere between Botswana and Zimbabwe. I would still lean more toward Zimbabwe South over the long haul.
An important thing to remember is that Mugabe, Mandela and Mbeki were products of British meddling in southern Africa. All 3 were instituted by the British with the cooperation of the churches, the southern African mining houses and the liberal media. All 3 were a disaster for southern Africa. The reason why the MSM either loathes or ignores Zuma is that he is a homegrown product of South Africa, much like the Afrikaners and Apartheid were also homegrown products. They cannot be easily controlled from London. The British gov, the Anglican Church, to a lesser extent the Catholic Church, mining houses, and the MSM hate anything home grown in southern Africa.
Well the Congo has great mineral wealth too and it makes Zimbabwe look like Norway.
OK, so it's not going to be Zimbabwe South, it's going to be Nigeria South - lots of wealth from resource extraction, but still a hell-hole, and with the wealth siphoned off by corrupt, incompetent elites.
I think you have a good point. However, black people have a very impressive track record for screwing things up.
Virtually every nation or city run by black people has turned into an economic and social basket case.
This includes Nigeria which was blessed with considerable oil wealth.
Steve, you're an optimistic guy with a big heart. You've got the same sanguine attitude displayed by the Chamber of Commerce in virtually every city in America, when they ceded urban political power to the Left.
I mean, come on, we've got an educated workforce, access to natural resources, good climate, what could possibly go wrong? Detroit--that's what.
New Orleans, Cincinatti, Atlanta, California, all drowning in debt with rapidly declining living standards.
Civilization is just a thin veneer over the jungle. Nobody realizes this until it gets scratched.
Steve, Can you recommend a book about the history of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe?
the mines are not exactly oil wells Steve. Your description fits Angola much better than South Africa.
Also, the mines depend more on other sectors of the economy, like transportation and electricity. Oil creates a separate economy for itself and barely relates with the rest of the economy.
and as you can see in venezuela and iran, output starts declining once the resources become "property of the people"
my take on SA is that the boers, unlike the rhodesians and english-speaking south africans, are not dandies. Boers are really tough guys, whose only white counterpart would be the israeli settlers.
so the boers won't go away.and they are armed to the teeth, and the economy depends on then to run
That's not a very cheery difference. Natural resource wealth tends to worsen corruption and dysfunction, if anything.
Intelligent people of all races should be getting out of South Africa at all prudent speed, on the Spanish principle of "cuando la barba de tu vecino ves cortar, pon la tuya a mojar"--"when you see them hacking off your neighbor's beard, lather up".
So, when the new rulers of Zimbabwe started murdering the farmers, stealing their farms, and driving off the other people who knew how to do stuff, it all went to hell.
In Zimbabwe a total of about 15 farmers were murdered since Mugabe took power. In the British media all hell broke loose, even though the British MSM and government were singularly responsible for wantonly putting Mugabe in power, in spite of better alternatives.
In South Africa so far, 2500 farmers have been murdered. In the mainland European media some of this is starting to leak into the main stream, and as people pick it up they are horrified. Some extreme liberals I know in Germany went mute when they heard from “their” media outlets what was going on, even though those reports were still sugar-coated.
I suspect the media quiet in Britain has to do with the historic hatred of the British towards the Afrikaner, and in the US due to internal political concerns.
So instead of becoming 100% cesspool, SA will just be 90% cesspool. Progress!
Yeah, cause mineral wealth has saved Cameroon, Nigeria, and the Congo from becoming African hell-holes.
Oh wait.
South Africa will not become another Botswana (its other, nicer neighbour to the north). Why? Among other things, Botswana has a population of 1.6 million vs. 47.9 for South Africa.
Another briliant theory shot down by a 5 minutes searching on google. Bravo.
I see this as attenuating the effects, not stopping them.
The basic dynamic at work is an unleashed black population. Since leashing black populations isn't doable anymore...
But if you mean that SA will wind up a typical sub-Saharan African nation, a hollowed-out shell of its former self with a small non-black population to exploit the mineral resources, okay, sure, I can see that.
Dave Lincoln has been to South Africa, and no one else here knows anything about it.
bet you the chinese move in and take over the operation when some corrupt warlord takes over.
I guess it depends on what you mean by Zim South.
California might be a better comparison: open borders and massive immigration, unsustainable taxes and social programs, and a terribly corrupt ethnocentric government.
South Africa might not turn into Zimbabwe. It'll be own special kind of disaster. Like an African Saudi Arabia, dim and fanatical African leaders will export and support stupidy all around them. Or it will be invaded like the Congo. Maybe China will take white south africans as honorary chinamen to keep the place running.
Like the Saudis, South Africa will be a welfare state dependent on foreign skilled labor. But Africans don't take to welfare quietly or safely. They'll confuse vast resources with the wealth that comes from being bright and industrious, and think their 'virtues' make them wealthy.
It's one thing for say a mining engineer to work in an unstable country for a few years, quite another to keep his family there. So probably guest workers will maintain a stable productive population South Africa is (supposedly) beatuiful and pleasant climate, so they'll have that going for getting guest workers.
For the average South African black person, I think it may end up looking somewhat like Zimbabwe: a native elite in with an extraction economy run by foreigners does not need to invest human capital. The black African upper class will get electricity, and so will the mines, but there isn't much incentive to keep slums powered up. Though they might be clever enough to get birth control flowing once the whites are less of a threat.
Of course, HIV/AIDS may make the demographic situation in SA less dark than it seems now. And the supremes put off America's collapse for a maybe a decade today.
IQ is instrumental in any discussion of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe/South Africa. Urge those interested to read the article in The Mensa Journal No. 97, March 1967, p. 1, The Intelligence of White Rhodesians BY NATHANIEL WEYL http://tinyurl.com/lk9qp9
Dan Kurt
Steve, You didn't show any math for this argument. How much of South Africa's wealth comes from whites and how much from minerals?
Do you believe the black South Africans will be better at maintaining mining operations than the black Zimbabweans are at farming? Assuming the whites still control those kind of operations.
I suspect your earlier suspicions are most likely correct.
Well, I'm pessimistic about SA.
Take the gold mines: Most of them are exceedingly deep, therefore, HOT. It takes huge amounts of electricity to cool the shafts sufficiently to be able to send humans down, and lift the ore up.
Eskom, the SA power company, since Apartheid with the accompanying brain drain of so many of SA's White engineers emigrating, can no longer, now, keep the electricity flowing both to the cities AND the mines at the same time. So as a result of the euphemism "load shedding," SA's gold production is down double digits the last year or two. This at a time when gold's been near $1000 / oz.
http://www.resourceinvestor.com/News/2008/11/Pages/South-Africa-s-Gold-Production-Plummets-17-7-.aspx
Mining gold, and especially from such deep mines, is difficult, dangerous and expensive and requires huge amounts of power. As the trend of blacks taking jobs for which they are not qualified from Whites under Black Economic Empowerment continues, Eskom will continue to fall further and further behind in its ability to power the mines.
Of course, ANC would NEVER agree to allow outside corps. to come in and fix its power problems. THAT would be admitting their own incompetence. In fact, they, even now, are working to prevent the mines from even using portable generators to generate their own electricity, since to allow them to do so would require them to admit the disaster BEE is.
Eventually the mining will, simply, cease.
And then some day, someone -- the Chinese? -- will then come in, conquer, and restart the electrical power plants to restart the mines.
Doesn't South Africa have a huge and productive farming sector, too? Looking at a latitude map, the place looks like California in the Southern Hemisphere.
Some credit has to be given to Trevor Manuel, SA Finance Minister from 1996 to 2008, for protecting the country from the worst excesses of die Partei
"In contrast, much of South Africa's economy is mineral, which generates huge profits with small skilled workforce; the mines wealth can paper over much shortfall in other parts of the economy."
You mean they won't look to real estate instead?
Prosecutors: Black defendants in Dallas corruption case sought to make whites pay up
By JASON TRAHAN / The Dallas Morning News
02:30 PM CDT on Monday, June 29, 2009
dallasnews.com
The prosecution in the corruption trial of former Dallas Mayor Pro Tem Don Hill and others gave jurors a tantalizing glimpse of what authorities called a web of intrigue in which black leaders solicited bribes from white developers because, they said, it was time for those developers to pay.
"The game has done changed," defendant Darren Reagan is heard saying on an audio tape played during opening statements by the prosecution...
Prosecutors allege that hundreds of thousands of dollars ended up in the hands of Hill or the other defendants, much of it bribes from developer Brian Potashnik and his wife Cheryl...
Only if South Africa manages in some half-arsed away to spend those revenues across the country.
As the kleptocracy advances those revenues - from mineral wealth - will be siphoned off. Longer term lets look out for breakaway states, warlord enclaves centered on coal/gold/diamond mining areas. They will make deals with outside business interests to keep the goodies flowing. The rest of SA will collapse Zimbabwe style.
Have a nice day!
"Yet, it's as if something happened to Canada, you wouldn't be too surprised if it later happened to the U.S."
I keep telling you people Canada is America in four years, and boy does it ever suck. To watch you guys - Americans! - rolling over for Obama and Co. (save you and the Steve-o-sphere, of course) is astonishing and worrying. And it's not like Obama didn't explicitly campaign on a platform to turn American into Canada, it was on his webpage for two years. That he wants to expand "hate crime" legislation that doesn't apply to straight white men - that's not news, that's something that for two and a half years he's been campaigning upon.
Isn't SA worse than Zimbabwe in many respects already? Rape wise, crime wise? I think it is on a few crime indicators. SA could be better than Zimbabwe and still be hell on earth.
I suspect you meant to type "Zibabwe is just South Africa with..."
Oh. So South Africa is not on the way of becoming Zimbabwe B, it is on the way of becoming Nigeria B, New Congo or the South Equatorial Guinea.
a matter of degree, not kind.
south africa is somewhat different though. there are a lot of europeans, over 5 million. that many europeans can economically support 40 million africans for a few decades. they've built a lot of infrastructure in south africa that doesn't exist in zimbabwe. especially during the time that south africa was embargoed, the europeans developed many of their own industries, including a world class defense company that builds it's own missiles, helicopters, and small arms. considering their situation, they proved to be exceptionally intelligent, industrious, and hardy. i mean, there's a nuclear power plant in south africa. it didn't get there by magic.
this is why the future of the united states is not collapse, but instead, a slow and steady decline accompanied by greater and greater pressure on euro-americans to keep things running.
"They tend to sputter when denouncing the very idea that Zimbabwe isn't just South Africa with a 14 year head start."
Steve, I think the above sentence means the opposite of what you intended. Try replacing "isn't" with is.
WRT South Africa's mineral economy, they have recently fallen from #1 in gold production to #3 behind China and the U.S.
Steve, the electrical power grid has collapsed. They do not have power for the mines. Hell, they do not even have power for homes or streetlights. And there aren't enough skilled white folks left to repair things.
The one thing black South Africans cannot understand is that white folks will not voluntarily live, work and engineer the society at an African level of subsistence. They will leave. They are leaving.
The white farmers of Zimbabwe and Zambia are willing to live a very low intensity, low impact rural existence, but the factory people, accountants, lawyers, advertising executives and others necessary to support an industrial economy like South Africa just will not.
But even if a sufficient number stayed in hopes of rebuilding things, the ANC cannot permit white folks to be seen as saviors of any part of Africa.
Helen Zille is trying to help the Cape recover from black rule, yet is sabotaged by the ANC at every turn for fear the black masses will jump ship from the ANC to Zille's party, the Democratic Alliance.
Even if they didn't jump ship, however, if Helen begins to make a success of the Cape, she will be immediately buried under a massive load of desperate immigrant blacks,both internal and external.
Any tiny buds of change she nurtures will be rooted out and gobbled up before they reach fruition, I am afraid.
A functioning Western culture can support a large low-IQ parasitic population as long as it has enough business to compete with the rest of the developed world.
Regrettably, the BEE program (Black Economic Empowerment) is destroying that business.
But perhaps Jacob Zuma can bring some change, He may, as an autocrat, treat the few remaining whites like European kings and princes treated the Jews: a minority race used to extract wealth from the native population. Although even that prospect is not appetizing: European royalty usually ended up sacrificing the Jews in times of famine and unrest.
i just don't see much hope.
South Africa still has a strong enough 'cadre' of whites to run the infrastructure of a relatively modern country. Once they're gone, South Africa will not look like Zimbabwe, but rather like the Congo, which is a similar-sized country with vast mineral resources. We all know what a nice place Congo is. We also all know that this coming decrepitude will be blamed on the 'legacy of apartheid', and of exploitation by developed countries. The thing is, sub-Saharan Africa counts for less than 1% of world trade and could altogether vanish from the surface of the Earth without a blip as far as commerce is concerned.
Steve, your celebrity doppleganger, Billy Mays, died over the weekend and you haven't said one word about it.
What's the cause of S. Africa's GDP doubling over the last 6 years?
http://www54.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=south+africa+gdp
This seems an odd contrast, against the fact that even the NYT and other liberal sources have reported bluntly on ominous disorder in South Africa.
What is the white and Indian population of SA as % of the total pop today compared to the ration in Rhodesia 20 years ago? That would be useful info. Also I don't think Rhodesia had an "indigenous" white population like the Boers in SA who consider Africa their only home and their land paid for in blood of many generations. My impression is that Rhodesian whites were culturally too British and too susceptible to British pressure. Another advantage whites have in SA is the ability to pit the various black tribal groups against each other. I don't think that tension existed to the same extent in Rhodesia, but happy to be corrected.
Anyway, long term we are moving to a world where color won't carry the meaning it does today. It's very clear that the overclass has invested a lot of time and energy in creating a "black" overclass that will share white overclass values - Barack Obama types - but can co-opt and contain black political aspirations. We won't see as many Mugabes or Al Sharptons in the future, and that's the point. The black leaders of tomorrow will be "black" the same way McCain or Bush were "conservative". We will have one overclass with a number of different faces to keep the proles fighting each other but the privileged firmly ensconced.
Doesn't South Africa have a huge and productive farming sector, too? Looking at a latitude map, the place looks like California in the Southern Hemisphere.
Arid/semi-Arid in the western half. From what I read some time back SA is one of the few places in the world with the "California climate" (I forget the real term I want to say Mediterranean but I think there's a more specific one; Steve wrote a piece on it), along with parts of the Mediterranean coast, small parts of the Australia coast, and, well, parts of the California coast.
And yes, we'll be shipping lots more food to Africa if and when SA's agricultural sector goes bust.
Anonymous wrote:
"I keep telling you people Canada is America in four years, and boy does it ever suck. "
------------------------
How does Canada suck? Free health care for all? It is a bit amusing to watch all the scary ads on CNN warning of the horrors of government run health care. Average life span in Canada is longer than average life span in US, and we get to chose our own doctors and hospitals.
One thing for certain, I'm very thankful that my grandparents chose to emigrate to Canada and not South Africa. The new president in South Africa is a corrupt polygamist freak. Even Stephen Harper look pretty good compared to Zuma.
--And the supremes put off America's collapse for a maybe a decade today.--
So I'd say we've got a good 11 or 12 years left...
Do you believe the black South Africans will be better at maintaining mining operations than the black Zimbabweans are at farming? Assuming the whites still control those kind of operations.
there will be a strongman dictator or one that holds 'elections'. ...he'll be open to the Chinese taking over -
White liberals will be happy because its empowering Asians.
Thanks for censoring me Steve. I only come from there. But I guess Americans know more than anybody else about everywhere else.
From the Mensa article linked above:
"Thus, white Rhodesians are an elite element within the English-speaking world in terms of psychometric intelligence. This finding is reinforced by visual impressions. Salisbury whites appear larger, healthier, more vigorous, alert and bright than London whites. Beatniks, transvestites and obvious homosexuals are conspicuously absent. "
You just don't find writing like this anymore...
Dan Kurt sed:
"IQ is instrumental in any discussion of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe/South Africa. "
Yeah, so how did that "superior intelligence" help out the Rhodesians?? I'm mystified.
"Yeah, so how did that "superior intelligence" help out the Rhodesians?? I'm mystified."
Umm... most of them were smart enough to leave?
Obviously,Sean Penn,George Clooney and Salma Hayek will need to keep their passports current and(at least in ms. Hayeks case) their breasts full!
Perhaps a bit off-topic. Rather then end Apartheid and create the multicultural crime-ridden wasteland that is S.A. today, the Boers might have been better to have just concentrated on carving out a small all White country for themselves and leaving all the rest of S.A. to its black citizenry. If S.A. is about 500,000 square miles in size and Whites were 10% of a 50,000,000 population that would fairly entitle them to a 50,000 square mile state. Ideally it should have been based on the coast for reasons of trade and defence. Under this secessionist scenario, Apartheid would have ended anyways. If 5,000,000 Jews can carve out a small, sea-based state in the face of hundreds of millions of hostile Arabs I don't see why the Boers couldn't have done something roughly familiar.
"What's the cause of S. Africa's GDP doubling over the last 6 years?"
My guess is (1) dramatic increases in the market prices of gold, platinum, and other commodities; and (2) coasting on infrastructure built up during white rule.
Anonymous: So I'd say we've got a good 11 or 12 years left...
Dream on:
Medicare paying out more than it takes in
By Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer
Updated 5/12/2009 5:41 PM
usatoday.com
HINGTON — The financial health of Social Security and Medicare, the government's two biggest benefit programs, have worsened because of the severe recession, and Medicare is now paying out more than it receives.
Trustees of the programs said Tuesday that Social Security will start paying out more in benefits than it collects in taxes in 2016, one year sooner than projected last year...
Big Bill: A functioning Western culture can support a large low-IQ parasitic population as long as it has enough business to compete with the rest of the developed world...
But not a rapidly graying Western culture in which a substantial portion of the high-IQ population embraced nihilism and quit making babies three or four decades ago.
I know a number of east Indians from African countries. They left after the British ceded power to the black Africans. They all say the same thing. Their African countries were well-run and safe and prosperous when the British were there. "Then the blacks took over and they screwed everything up".
I've also often wondered why the Boers don't just secede.
Let the natives keep all the best farmland & mineral deposits in the east, and head off into the dry, arid land out west.
If they did that, then their situation would be a lot better in 25 years' time than it would be otherwise.
"Let the natives keep all the best farmland & mineral deposits in the east, and head off into the dry, arid land out west."
And if history is any indication, the desert will bloom, but the farmland and mines will lie fallow
---Anonymous: So I'd say we've got a good 11 or 12 years left...
Dream on:---
Cut me some slack, I'm sandbagging! See you in the streets!
Well the Congo has great mineral wealth too and it makes Zimbabwe look like Norway.
This is the salient point. Great wealth in natural resources don't translate into a functioning political system. If the wealth is great enough, as in Saudi Arabia, the country will most likely turn into a giant welfare state with immigrant laborers doing all the work.
A more normal country like the Congo or Nigeria will turn into, well, the Congo or Nigeria. The wealth will be siphoned off by a tiny percentage of the population and placed in offshore bank accounts. The losers will run around blowing things up and generally making everyone miserable. Eventually the UN will show up and start handing out food, making everyone who doesn't have a gun completely irrelevant.
I wonder if Testy is going to pine in and start blaming the problems of 'Sout Efrika' on SWPL libs and feminists,
...like he does 24/7 with his favorite country -- Israel -- of course.
Headache,
Can you recommend any blogs about South Africa to follow?
If 5,000,000 Jews can carve out a small, sea-based state in the face of hundreds of millions of hostile Arabs I don't see why the Boers couldn't have done something roughly familiar.
Uhm, the particulars of the "who? Whom" of the current zeitgeist? Come on, don't be naive.
Right on the money, Headache. I remember trying to explain some of the racial dynamics of the country to some dingbat I knew on her way over there to make a film. It was only black and white for her, with the requisite good and evil labels doled out according to the skin. Being a good American, she couldn't grasp the nuance involved - Buthelezi's Inkatha Freedom Party, representing a lot of the Zulus, was more ideologically aligned with the Boervolk than they were with the Xhosa and their ANC, who found their greatest white support from among the English, naturally.
I know a lot of antisemites like to post on Steve's site, but man, the Chosen have had a rocking partner in the Anglo-Saxon for some time now.
"If 5,000,000 Jews can carve out a small, sea-based state in the face of hundreds of millions of hostile Arabs I don't see why the Boers couldn't have done something roughly familiar."
Really? You honestly don't know why?
"Once they're gone, South Africa will not look like Zimbabwe, but rather like the Congo, which is a similar-sized country with vast mineral resources. We all know what a nice place Congo is."
----
Not THIS 'Congo' I hope? -
=
Rioting Congo prisoners rape 20 women | International | Reuters
http://tinyurl.com/nxmkky
Or this -
HBO: The Greatest Silence: Rape in the Congo
http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/thegreatestsilence/index.html
=
Ah yes, what is the full official name of Congo?--
"The DEMOCRATIC Republic of Congo"
(Gives new meaning to the slogan 'de-mock-racy', doesn't it?)
Here is the point: if and when the country descends into chaos, it will be impossible for the whites/"coloureds"/Indians/black middle class not to take over by force. And physically, it will be easy to do; their best chance legaly is to co-operate inter-racially and not to try to restore old-fashioned apartheid.
Part of this might include a secession attempt by the Western Cape. This may or may not happen depending on the timing in relation to the rest of the country's stability.
Whether or not any of this succeeds, and thereby restores order and civilisation, will depend on the dubious collection of sanctimonious moralisers and opportunists who like to call themselves "The International Community". In the final analysis, they are the major problem, since the good ones are naive and either stupid or totally divorced from reality, and the bad ones are only interested in propping up crooks.
I am not optimistic.
Anon.
kurt9,
Thanks for asking. Like I said, the real action is off the radar because the liberal establishment either does not understand the ethnic nature of South Africa or they don't want to see it. Well, if they acknowledged it then the obvious question is why they hated Apartehid so much, since it was a rather benign ethnically-based political system.
The result is that any reporting worth reading is in Afrikaans.
Threre are 2 guys in the know. The one is an Afrikaner intellectual/language activisit whom I hope will become an Afrikaner leader. He has similarities with Steve but is alpha, not beta (sorry Steve). His name is Dr. Dan Roodt. His site: praag.co.za
The other guy is in the know concerning the crime syndicates, farm murders and has good connections on the security level with the Zuma camp. He is very clued up and can read African sign language. He is a former military guy. His name is Lukas Swart, the site akska.co.za. He is even been called in on the Somali piracy issue because pirates use tactics similar to the syndicates in South Africa. But I should not say more.
Everything else is mostly rubbish, unfortunately.
"American Renaissance had an article recently about how importing blacks labor for mines and farms is what destroyed SA. Most of the blacks in SA came there after whites did."
__
Yes, this was thanks to the British being the Rothschild's flunkies,
not by Boere initiative alone, if much at all.
Remember also the world's FIRST concentration camps built by the BRITISH to imprison Boere women and children?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtKKJSfYraU
General Jacobus Herculaas de la Rey -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koos_de_la_Rey
Anonymous: ...the Boers would have to totally change the way they farm...
I thought there was a group of Boers who had completely eschewed Black labor and who were trying for economic independence & self-sufficiency.
Albert Schweitzer: Yes, this was thanks to the British being the Rothschild's flunkies, not by Boere initiative alone, if much at all.
Okay, are you being facetious?
Having thought about it, I agree that South Africa is different from Zimbabwe.
From a world perspective, viable mines are much scarcer than viable farmland. In other words, the world needs the metals which could be extracted in South Africa much more than the world needs the crops which could be grown in Zimbabwe.
So it's probably true that South Africa won't get as bad as Zimbabwe. Nevertheless, things could get pretty bad.
boots:
"I suspect the media quiet in Britain has to do with the historic hatred of the British towards the Afrikaner, and in the US due to internal political concerns."
Speaking as a Brit, I'd have to say that this sounds right. In the British MSM, Rhodesian and Anglo-SA whites count as people, Afrikaners are orcs.
Machiavelli said that if you want someone to like them, get them to do you a favour. The converse is that is you want to really hate someone, commit a crime against them. Britain's appalling treatment of the Afrikaners seems to require that they be regarded as monsters. Otherwise we'd feel bad.
The World Cup will be held in South Africa a year from now. They just finished the Confederations Cup in South Africa (USMNT 2nd place). Expect the Western media to play up a "happy" picture of South Africa. I imagine they will be able to pull it off somehow, with the Western media not drawing too much attention to SA's underlying problems (unless these can be spun as cause for more Western guilt-tripping and do-goodism).
For the past couple of years there have been serious doubts expressed about SA's ability to host the 2010 World Cup and rumors that it would be moved to another country. I've talked to South Africans on soccer forums who brought up that figure of increased GDP in South Africa as "proof" that SA is improving.
I'm not sure I'd trust any figures put out by the SA govt. to begin with, however what GDP measures is not necessarily the real economy. Exporting the local mineral resources may give a boost to GDP, but this simply masks the underlying rot as the infrastructure deteriorates and the best educated, high IQ whites, asians and others flee the country.
Also you guys are being too hard on Steve, I don't think he was seriously saying that mineral resources will "save" SA. I took his post to be a little tongue in cheek.
"Dave Lincoln has been to South Africa, and no one else here knows anything about it."
Nope, never been, and there's no way I want to go there now. Who told you my itinerary? (They lied to you, whoever it was.)
Why don't you expound on their economic system, Mr. Anonymous?
"---Britain's appalling treatment of the Afrikaners seems to require that they be regarded as monsters. Otherwise we'd feel bad.---"
Thanks for the recognition of this, bro! You are a good man!
~
"De La Rey, De La Rey sal jy die Boere kom lei?
De La Rey, De La Rey
Generaal, generaal soos een man, sal ons om jou val.
Generaal De La Rey."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAhHWpqPz9A&feature=related
http://outoppie-localislekker.blogspot.com/2009/05/de-la-rey-lyrics.html
"bet you the chinese move in and take over the operation when some corrupt warlord takes over."
You'd win, and more power to em. They know how to do business. It can be the "yellow man's burden" from here on; I couldn't give a rat's ass about that continent, except for the big cats, who have my respect.
headache,
Thanks for the links. Unfortunately I do not read Afrikans. Afrikans appears similar to Dutch. Perhaps it is derived from it.
What is your opinion of the South African novelist Wilbur Smith?
What is your opinion of the South African novelist Wilbur Smith?
Never read him. South Africa provides enough drama in real life. No need to read any novels. Being born there as a white person really sucks. The place was always on the verge of being a Third World country, and now the total disaster has set in. On top we don't even get recognition for being as generous to blacks as to literally hand the place to them on a silver platter. Now we have to emigrate, start all over again and are mostly treated on par with Turks, Blacks and Pakistani's in most of the Western nations.
Sorry, can't help you with the language problem. Afrikaans is a genetic language in that only those born as Afrikaners speak and read it. Nobody voluntarily learns it. Yet another result of the incessant anti-Afrikaner propaganda by the British establishment.
I'm closing my comments.
Simon has it right: The British have an apology and reparations outstanding to the Afrikaner. Of course they don't want to hear it, because the Afrikaner humiliated them in both Boer Wars, in 1948 and Britain is now effectively broke and without an empire. It’s tough for the ego. But just as the Afrikaner got over admitting the bad parts of Apartheid and paying more than reparations by handing over the country, it's not too much to ask from Britain.
The Queen could take the lead, since she essentially represents that part of British society most responsible for the concentration camps in which 26000 Afrikaner women and children died, for the suppression of Afrikaans, for stripping the Afrikaner of the gold and diamond wealth of the Transvaal, the political and economic suppression of the Boers and all attempts till this day at preventing the Afrikaner from taking his rightful position on the world stage. Instead of eating dinner with and holding Mandela’s hand she should stretch out a hand of humility towards the Afrikaner and turn the appalling attitude of the British establishment towards the Afrikaner around. She more than everybody else holds the key.
headache:
"Now we have to emigrate, start all over again and are mostly treated on par with Turks, Blacks and Pakistani's in most of the Western nations..."
It's true that that is govt policy in the UK. I don't think too many Brits feel that way, though. I certainly know who I prefer as neighbours! If anything we Brits have a bit of an inferiority complex re SA-ers and Rhodesians, as well as Americans. Not so much re Australians ("great bar staff!") or New Zealanders ("boring... sheep..."), though. South Africans work really hard and demand high standards, which makes us raise our game. Sometimes that can get tiresome.
I know that the Brits basically invented concentration camps to put the Boers in them. I've heard that Winston Churchill was involved in this.
I also heard that the Boers tend to get along better with blacks than the "British" SA people. Is this true?
I've met people from SA while living in Japan and Taiwan. My impression was that the "British" South Africans tended to be more the whiny liberal types whereas the Afrikaans tended to be of sterner character.
"I've met people from SA while living in Japan and Taiwan. My impression was that the "British" South Africans tended to be more the whiny liberal types whereas the Afrikaans tended to be of sterner character."
It gets even better than this, since many of those "British" SA's are in fact heavily involved with the De Beers gangster diamond cartel!
Now let's see, what 'ethny' has historically dominated in this 'industry'?
Welsh?, Scots?, Faroe Islanders? (LOL)
And then there is this from www.zasucks.com. It looks like mineral resources are not going to save them:
ANCYL (ed: ANCYL = AfricanNational Congress Youth League) President Julius Malema’s speaking notes on the opening of the Youth League political school, Croco Lodge, Krugersdorp, July 1 2009
“At this moment in time, when the imperialist forces are realising the accepting the failure of capitalism, we should ask whether the time has not arrived for the government of South Africa under President Zuma to make sure that the State owns the Mines and other means of production as called for in the Freedom Charter.
The Freedom Charter unites us in recognition of the fact that for genuine liberation, “the mineral wealth beneath the soil, monopoly industry and banks should be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole”.
The truth is that the main vehicle to transform and better the living conditions of our people is through the transfer of wealth from the few to the majority, and we should do that with determination.
We have to accept that the implementation of the Freedom Charter will not please everyone. Our responsibility and obligation is to please the majority of our people, so we should not be worried that there will be problems when the Freedom Charter is implemented. It should be implemented.”
Julius Malema
I believe 'Albert Schweitzer' is confusing the Rothschilds with the Oppenheimers.
Central Holdings (Oppenheimer Family) owns forty per cent of De Beers, compared to Anglo-American's forty five per cent. And the Chairman of De Beers has always been an Oppenheimer.
"Speaking as a Brit, I'd have to say that this sounds right. In the British MSM, Rhodesian and Anglo-SA whites count as people, Afrikaners are orcs.
Machiavelli said that if you want someone to like them, get them to do you a favour. The converse is that is you want to really hate someone, commit a crime against them. Britain's appalling treatment of the Afrikaners seems to require that they be regarded as monsters. Otherwise we'd feel bad."
Don't talk bollocks Simon. I don't know anyone who 'hates' Afrikaners.
As for emigration. As far as Britain is concerned an Afrikaner won't be treated any different than a British South African or indeed a black one unless one of them has recent enough British ancestry to qualify for citizenship by blood. Interestingly although an 'EU citizen' can enter this nation and secure leave to remain and work legally with far more ease than a South African or Australian he could not join the armed forces. You need to be British, Irish, or Commonwealth citizen to join the Armed Forces of the Crown.
"Don't talk bollocks Simon. I don't know anyone who 'hates' Afrikaners."
I say pure POPPYCOCK, since Britain, like Simon says, has been the historical persecutors of the Boere/Afrikaner people,
...particularly with their role as attack dog for securing the mineral wealth and resources for the Rothschilds and their confederates, such as the Oppenheimers.
Who were the 'Oppenheimers' after all, Scots Highlanders?? (lol)
"I say pure POPPYCOCK, since Britain, like Simon says, has been the historical persecutors of the Boere/Afrikaner people, "
Hardly out of hate.
If we thought of Afrikaners are 'orcs' how do you explain the occassional sympathetic newspaper articles about them being murdered in their farms? Our journalists don't say they deserved it.
I never said the Oppenheimers weren't Jewish, but they aren't Rothschilds. Clearly you are one of those maniacs that sees the fingers of Rothschild everywhere. Save us from their terrifying boutique investment firms and zoological exhibits! Aaargggh no! The Tring Museum!
Lots of non Jewish people were and are involved in African minerals and it didn't take any Jews for us to want them. Why do you think Rhodesia was called Rhodesia?
"I never said the Oppenheimers weren't Jewish, but they aren't Rothschilds. Clearly you are one of those maniacs that sees the fingers of Rothschild everywhere. Save us from their terrifying boutique investment firms and zoological exhibits! Aaargggh no! The Tring Museum!"
__
Ah BALDERDASH!
For one thing, stop being so fresh :-(.
Secondly, to use a 'Testy-esque' term, you are 'out of your depth' if you don't understand (or worse, willfully overlook) the significant role the Rothschild's and other Jewish financial families/firms played in the expansion of the 'British' empire in the 19th and early 20th century [How sadly hypocritical when you think about it: The 'British' ;-) "do the crime"--whilst the Afrikaners have to "do the time" :-(]!
*
"...how do you explain the occassional sympathetic newspaper articles about them being murdered in their farms?"
Precisely, an OCCASIONAL 'sympathetic article'!
*
"Why do you think Rhodesia was called Rhodesia?"
Who do you think Cecil Rhodes was financed by!?!
"---In October 1871, Rhodes left the colony for the diamond fields of Kimberley. Financed by N M Rothschild & Sons, Rhodes achieved a virtual monopoly in the diamond mining industry, Rothschild also profiting on the yield from the future exploitation.---"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes
&
"Among the most ardent supporters of Cecil Rhodes' "Cape to Cairo all-British Route" were Jews like Alfred Beit and, later, the Weil family at Mafeking. Jews lived with Lobengula about 1865, and D. F. Kisch, later of Pretoria, was his chief adviser from 1868 to 1873, and immediately after his fall in 1893 Jewish congregations were established in Buluwayo and even as far north as Salisbury."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=988&letter=S
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Beit
http://hubpages.com/hub/Tragedy_and_Hope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iRHbBiHuuA
*
Remember, it is not ultimately WHAT you know, it is what you ALLOW yourself to KNOW if one is truly to be free.
Welcome to the Matrix, Mate!
It's all a conspiracy!
"For one thing, stop being so fresh :-(.
Secondly, to use a 'Testy-esque' term, you are 'out of your depth' if you don't understand (or worse, willfully overlook) the significant role the Rothschild's and other Jewish financial families/firms played in the expansion of the 'British' empire in the 19th and early 20th century [How sadly hypocritical when you think about it: The 'British' ;-) "do the crime"--whilst the Afrikaners have to "do the time" :-(]!"
Crime? Which crime? The Afrikaners are hardly squeaky clean and you are wrong to say it's a strict Afrikaner/Anglo-African divide. I wouldn't fancy being any kind of white South African at the moment. Do you think a gang of robbers will bother to check your surname before they carjack you? Afrikaners were in charge from 1948 and now someone else is.
Nothing you have said is new to me and it's hardly strong evidence of a massive conspiracy. You also can't look at the expansion of the British Empire without seeing plenty of financiers and merchants who were not Jewish and whose firms' sucessors are still a big deal. You also could just have easily name dropped some powerful old families who aren't Jewish and who were very powerful at the time and who still have great wealth.
"Precisely, an
OCCASIONAL 'sympathetic article'!"
You want it written up all the time? I see plenty of articles about what a shithole South Africa (and Zimbabwe too) now is. We aren't all Peter Gabriel. I predict a lot more articles in the run up to the 2010 world cup, which is going to be a security nightmare.
"Welcome to the Matrix, Mate!"
Don't mate me fella! (chuckle)
I don't think your wrong about everything I mostly just think you're wrong about British people supposedly hating Afrikaners and also that you overestimate the Rothschilds infleunce. I think it's fair to say they have seen better days. Most Brits nowadays probably can't tell the difference between Boer or Anglo South Africans and it's not as if they two groups don't interbreed.
Lucius Vorenus said...
"I've also often wondered why the Boers don't just secede.
Let the natives keep all the best farmland & mineral deposits in the east, and head off into the dry, arid land out west."
They tried. They tried giving independence to some black areas but the international powers would have none of that. This had been done by Britain before who gave independence to Lesotho and Swaziland but when the Republic of South Africa tried it the power in London would not allow it.
Read the article
The nature of the Beast in this page
http://www.zasucks.com/?paged=11
Read what really happened in South Africa, something your newspaper of the Tv will never tell you.
yaaaaaaaaa i think its true...........
Boise real estate
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