From the New York Times:
Obama’s Visit to Israel Renews Effort to Free Spy
By ISABEL KERSHNER
JERUSALEM — When President Obama lands here on Wednesday, he may encounter some Israelis staging a hunger strike in support of Jonathan Jay Pollard, the American serving a life term in a North Carolina prison for spying for Israel.
But the call for Mr. Pollard’s release will not be restricted to the strident, right-wing protests that have previously greeted American officials.
Instead, it will come from Israel’s dovish president, Shimon Peres, and some of the country’s most respected public figures: Nobel Prize-winning scientists, retired generals, celebrated authors and intellectuals who have signed, along with more than 175,000 other citizens, an online petition appealing for clemency for Mr. Pollard.
After years of being viewed as a somewhat marginal and divisive issue here, the campaign to free Mr. Pollard has become a mainstream crusade. Prominent Israelis are shedding the shame long felt over the affair, one of the most damaging, painful episodes in the annals of the American-Israeli relationship, and recasting it as a humanitarian issue ready to be resolved.
The effort has gathered momentum, and many Israelis consider Mr. Obama’s visit to be the perfect opportunity for a gesture of good will.
Right, because America owes Israel a gesture of good will over the Pollard Case for, uh, ...
The full details of the crime committed by Pollard and Israeli intelligence against the U.S. remain secret, but it appears likely that Pollard gave American secrets on the ultimate line of defense in case of nuclear apocalypse, boomers -- ICBM submarines -- to the Israelis, who traded them to the Soviets. That's really, really bad.
I suppose you could argue: "Well, World War III never got around to happening, so ... no harm, no foul!" But that's not a sound argument.
The full details of the crime committed by Pollard and Israeli intelligence against the U.S. remain secret, but it appears likely that Pollard gave American secrets on the ultimate line of defense in case of nuclear apocalypse, boomers -- ICBM submarines -- to the Israelis, who traded them to the Soviets. That's really, really bad.
I suppose you could argue: "Well, World War III never got around to happening, so ... no harm, no foul!" But that's not a sound argument.
Therefore, you might think that the Israeli attitude toward the Pollard Affair would be: "We shall never speak of this again." In terms of the manners and morals that your mother taught you, what Israeli society is doing in rubbing America's nose in Israel's crime against America sounds like lunacy.
But, that's naive. The best defense, it turns out, is a good offense. Stay offensive and take offense. Intimidate skeptics with your sheer brass.
P.S., So far, Obama has shown some backbone in not pardoning Pollard:
Keep it up, Mr. President.
P.P.S. Pollard, by the way, is not a selfless martyr to any higher cause. He wanted money for drugs and jewelry. He's a horrible person. The Wikipedia article on him has a good depiction of his character, such as attempting to sell U.S. secrets to Pakistan on multiple occasions. Here's my favorite bit of Pollardania, on Pollard as an adolescent:
But, that's naive. The best defense, it turns out, is a good offense. Stay offensive and take offense. Intimidate skeptics with your sheer brass.
P.S., So far, Obama has shown some backbone in not pardoning Pollard:
In an interview shown Thursday on Israel’s Channel 2, Mr. Obama said that Mr. Pollard had “committed a very serious crime” and was “serving his time.” He said he was sympathetic to Israelis’ emotions and would ensure that the usual rules of review were applied in his case.
But he added, “I have no plans for releasing Jonathan Pollard immediately.”
Keep it up, Mr. President.
P.P.S. Pollard, by the way, is not a selfless martyr to any higher cause. He wanted money for drugs and jewelry. He's a horrible person. The Wikipedia article on him has a good depiction of his character, such as attempting to sell U.S. secrets to Pakistan on multiple occasions. Here's my favorite bit of Pollardania, on Pollard as an adolescent:
Pollard made his first trip to Israel in 1970, as part of a science program visiting the Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot. While there, he was hospitalized after a fight with another student. One Weizmann scientist remembered Pollard as leaving behind "a reputation of being an unstable troublemaker, the worst case of this kind in the history of the summer camp".[13]
P.P.P.S. Anyway, the point is not Pollard, it's how widespread shameless Pollardmania has become in Israel that a member of the Nobel-certified Global Great and Good like Shimon Peres has come down with it. The usual explanation for this kind of seemingly knuckleheaded obnoxiousness is that "Israelis are their own worst enemies."
And yet, Israel, which has plenty of real enemies, seems to be doing quite well. So, maybe Israelis aren't their own worst enemies. Maybe this tendency to demand gestures of good will from the victims of your bad will serves useful purposes? Perhaps there are lessons to be learned from Israel's success?
Posts
131 comments:
I really admire Obama, I think he is aware that the Chicago scotch-irish elite wanted to make him the a post-Bush liberal pupppet nut he rised above this.
Obama would not need to pardon Pollard -- Jews still voted for him though he despises Israel (and them) around 75%. What is notable is that Bush 1 & 2, and Clinton, did not do so.
Pollard was a traitor, let him rot in jail forever. As far as I'm concerned.
If Bush 1 and 2 who needed Jewish votes would not pardon Pollard, I would be surprised if a Dem did it. Given Jews vote Dem heavily already.
What is interesting is how Israel signed a deal with Russia's Gazprom to develop its Med gas fields. Concluding the US was a bad and uncertain partner. Obama gutted missile defense (the Pat Buchanon strategy) and got ... North Korea treating him like a punk. Threatening to nuke the US, with the nukes (but not yet the missile range) to do it. Even the NYT notes that it will take years for Obama to get missile interceptors up and running, after canceling them, in which North Korea has a window. Protected by China, and kept on their leash, that tells you how the Chinese view Obama: a weak chump.
Prediction: South Korea, Japan, Malaysia, and Indonesia nuke up as quickly as possible; given that the US protection is about as worthless as Cypriot bank bonds.
It's nowhere near likely that Pollard turned over such information to Israel which subsequently turned it over to the Soviets.
Pollard was a sacrificial lamb to be made an example of. It's true that considering Israel's special relationship with the US and the number of Jews in high position in the US it makes sense to execute just such a sacrificial lamb but your anti-occam approach to the Pollard matter (choosing the most extreme and unlikely assumption) does nothing for the argument against his freedom.
Mark Steyn notes Obama is presiding over defeat in Iraq, and Afghanistan, with ... North Korea treating him like a cheap Kleen-ex. Which means us as well.
Obama does not have a strategy, other than doing everything on the cheap: drones that killed over 4,000 -- without solving the problem. Like everything done dirt-cheap, its guaranteed to make everything worse in the end.
Obama didn't want to be the World's Policeman? Then he needed to nuke up seriously, like Ike. Who cut the military forces but had Bombers in the air 24/7 with nukes ready to go at a moment's notice.
Obama will free Pollard when it gets closer to election time. Why not earn the good will, and good money, of important people just before you leave office? The next democrat candidate will benefit, and heck, who do you think signs checks for 6 (7?) figure speaking fees?
Freeing Pollard might offend muslims. That's the real reason Obama hasn't pardoned him. Obama would not break rule # 1.
With a "friend" like Israel, America doesn't need any enemies.
He doesn't want to rise too far, look what happened to JFK. As an added bonus you can guess where the false flag operation will be staged to appear as if it originated from, and that outcome would not be good for us. Softly, softly.
But the cold war has ended. We should have offered to trade him with our spies in Russia 20 years ago.
I am not too familiar with the laws of war, but aren't there some laws dealing with spies? If not, then some basic laws should be implemented.
We can't keep this guy in prison forever. I am amazed how some Americans fly the black MIA flag in front of their homes on 4th of July and at the same time support keeping this guy in prison forever.
WTF! The guy has paid is dues, let him go.
Well, Obama is still advised by Eric Holder who pardoned Marc Rich, so I'm not expecting much.
Therefore, you might think that the Israeli attitude toward the Pollard Affair would be: "We shall never speak of this again."
have they ever done that, anywhere?
Pollard is a dumb choice. It makes Obama look good. They should have picked George Zimmerman.
Freeing Pollard might offend muslims. That's the real reason Obama hasn't pardoned him. Obama would not break rule # 1.
I don't think many Muslims have ever heard of Pollard. I don't think many Americans have either.
Let us offer to swap Pollard for those who ordered the attack on the USS Liberty. Any other surrender is Magrahi Part Deux.
This of course is impossible.
As Walt and Mearsheimer showed conclusively, and as all ISteve commenters will verify, the US government is a hopeless pawn in the hands of the Israel Lobby.
Pollard is obviously walking around free and Teheran is a crater. Ninety percent of American taxes go to Israel.
Its shocking that Steve writes otherwise.
Unless....
I'm not an Obama fan, but this thing has nothing to do with Obama's playing politics. Five American presidents now - Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II and Obama - have refused to pardon Pollard. Every presidential candidate, Democrat and Republican, promises the Israel lobby that, if elected, he will review the Pollard case. And every single president, after taking office and learning the facts, has decided that Pollard deserves to stay in prison for the rest of his life.
...your anti-occam approach to the Pollard matter (choosing the most extreme and unlikely assumption)....
That makes no sense whatsoever.
We can't keep this guy in prison forever. I am amazed how some Americans fly the black MIA flag in front of their homes on 4th of July and at the same time support keeping this guy in prison forever.
OK, I am going to call bull on this. How many guys have you ever spoken to who both fly the black MIA flag AND know who Jonathan Pollard is? You are looking at two different demographics here. The guys who actually fly the black MIA flag are generally working class Vietnam Vets. The guys who know about Pollard and want him to remain in prison are upper middle class, high-level insiders and bureaucrats.
The guys who hated Pollard the most tend to be the tiny number of top officials who have tippy-top secret clearance to read The File, like Caspar Weinberger.
I've got an idea for a "goodwill gesture": How about Israel handing over for the summary justice usually meted out to pirates every Israeli SOB who was involved in the savage attack on the USS Liberty and the murder of American sailors.
Weinberger was just trying to burnish his patriotic, converso bonifides by crucifying Pollard. No American ever got a sentence that harsh for peacetime spying.
The guys who hated Pollard the most tend to be the tiny number of top officials who have tippy-top secret clearance to read The File, like Caspar Weinberger.
So in other words, if more people had access to The File, we wouldn't have to go through this debate every three to four years about whether to release Pollard. It would be a dead issue.
The Rosenbergs got the electric chair. That's harsher than Pollard's sentence. Aldritch Ames got life. Robert Hanssen got life.
Whoa, this brought the crazies out.
>anti-Occam<
Occam's principle of parsimony (his "razor") states that, in the absence of evidence, the simplest explanation is likelier to be true. But there's plenty of evidence on Pollard's crimes: only some of it's classified.
anony-mouse said
>Pollard is obviously [not] walking around free and Teheran is [not] a crater. Ninety percent of American taxes [don't] go to Israel.<
So that means there's no Israel Lobby? C'mon, AM, you need to find your head. It fell off your shoulders and is rolling around somewhere.
>I am amazed how some Americans fly the black MIA flag in front of their homes on 4th of July and at the same time support keeping this guy in prison<
You're equating American vets with an Israeli who sold nuclear secrets to the Soviets? Do you also class the Rosenbergs with Patton, by any chance?
Blood is thicker than water, I suppose - and more inebriating than alcohol.
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed in 1953 for passing secrets to the Soviets.
We can't keep this guy in prison forever. I am amazed how some Americans fly the black MIA flag in front of their homes on 4th of July and at the same time support keeping this guy in prison forever.
Spying vs MIA. You don't know the difference? He was a US citizen spying for a foreign government and deserves more than a life sentence.
Pollard is obviously walking around free and Teheran is a crater. Ninety percent of American taxes go to Israel.
Being "on the side of the angels" means always thinking about how the "angels" could be better served.
"We can't keep this guy in prison forever."
Why not? He got off easy.
Death to spies I say.
"Anonymous said...
Weinberger was just trying to burnish his patriotic, converso bonifides by crucifying Pollard. No American ever got a sentence that harsh for peacetime spying."
That is bulls**t. Aldrich Ames and Robert Hansen got the same - life in prison. The Rosenbergs were executed. Pollard's sentence was nothing special.
Not only do I like the fact that Obama isn't giving in, but I love it when Steve drops the caustic, tongue in-cheek manner and gives a simple "Good. Keep it up."
If it is true that Pollard traded secrets regarding submarine based missiles, that is certainly grounds for never relesaing him. If it is true that Israel traded that information to the Soviet Union, that is grounds for no longer considering Israel an ally of any kind, ever.
>Weinberger was just trying to burnish his patriotic, converso bonifides by crucifying Pollard. No American ever got a sentence that harsh for peacetime spying.
I'm pretty sure the Rosenbergs would disagree with you.
"The best defense is a good offense."
Only in one's dealings with people. When dealing with forces of nature, machines, inanimate objects in general, when trying to search for the objective truth of anything, humility works best. Inanimate objects and abstract concepts can't be fooled or intimidated. Usually we know less about them than we'd like to think. Being consciously humble when thinking about them should produce the best results.
In the real world, of course, there is a stickiness or inertia to this. Most people are either indiscriminately arrogant in both the animate and the inanimate spheres or humble in both.
"I am not too familiar with the laws of war, but aren't there some laws dealing with spies?"
Yes. It's punishable by death.
18 USC § 2381
Via THE NEW YORKER, some extracts from Hersh's article on Pollard:
[His] supporters are mistaken in believing that Jonathan Pollard caused no significant damage to national security. Furthermore, according to senior members of the American intelligence community, Pollard’s argument that he acted solely from idealistic motives and provided Israel only with those documents which were needed for its defense was a sham designed to mask the fact that he was driven to spy by his chronic need for money.
Hersh continues:
The documents Pollard turned over to Israel were not focussed exclusively on the product of American intelligence—its analytical reports and estimates. They also revealed how America was able to learn what it did—a most sensitive area of intelligence defined as “sources and methods.” Pollard gave the Israelis vast amounts of data dealing with specific American intelligence systems and how they worked.
A number of officials Hersh spoke with believed that the intelligence Pollard provided was repackaged and given to the Soviet Union
in exchange for continued Soviet permission for Jews to emigrate to Israel. Other officials go further, and say that there was reason to believe that secret information was exchanged for Jews working in highly sensitive positions in the Soviet Union. A significant percentage of Pollard’s documents, including some that described the techniques the American Navy used to track Soviet submarines around the world, was of practical importance to the Soviet Union.
Obama is not the first President to be asked to consider clemency for Pollard. As Hersh describes in his piece, early in his presidency, Bill Clinton was urged by Yitzhak Rabin to free Pollard. Hersh reports that idea came up again during the 1998 Wye River negotiations, but that Clinton declined.
syon
From Edwin Black's piece in THE JEWISH DAILY FORWARD:
"Among the most sensitive materials were reports from the Sixth Fleet's Air Reconnaissance Squadron TWO, codenamed VQ-2, headquartered in Rota, Spain. The forward-deployed squadron's motto is "We deliver critical electronic combat information to our forces: Any place, any time!" In Pollard's day, VQ-2 continuously deployed EA-3B Skywarriors and later the EP-3E ARIES over-the-horizon electronic eavesdropping aircraft across the Mediterranean. VQ-2 provided invaluable intelligence during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the 1982-83 evacuation of Beirut, and America's precision night-time bombing of Libya in April 1986. By providing unredacted VQ-2 dispatches, revealing America's time and place acquisition methods, Pollard enabled Israel to virtually track America's own intelligence capability in the Mediterranean and even over Israel itself. This was crucial in Israel's 1985 bombing of the P.L.O. headquarters in Tunis, codenamed Operation Wooden Leg, which depended upon Israeli F-15s evading both American and Arab listening posts over North Africa.
But all of it together was dwarfed by photocopying for Israel the massive 10-volume RASIN Manual, according to a principal author of the Weinberger Declaration. An acronym for Radio and Signal Intelligence [RASIN], the precious manual is known as "the Bible," according to the intelligence officer. The RASIN Manual details America's global listening profile, frequency by frequency, source by source, geographic slice by geographic slice. RASIN was in effect, a complete roadmap to American signal intelligence. Pollard's handlers required the spy to locate and copy the most up-to-date edition.
When Pollard's attorneys tried to argue at the sentencing that although the spy had delivered volumes of classified papers, "the damage here is not serious damage," Judge Robinson stopped them cold. Raising his arm, and cautioning them not to verbalize the sensitive information, the judge warned, "Well, then I would ask you to just think--and not articulate. ... I would ask you to think about the Secretary of Defense's Affidavit, as it related to only one thing—and I won't even pinpoint it--as it related to only one category of publication." Judge Robinson added, "Would you like to come to the bench, and I will refresh your recollection to what I am referring to." A hushed classified bench discussion followed. Informed sources say Pollard's RASIN Manual disclosure was the crux of that secret courtroom exchange held just moments before the outraged judge finally pronounced a life sentence. Some estimate the loss of the RASIN manual cost America billions of dollars, and many years, to completely restructure our worldwide eavesdropping operation.
By any measure, Pollard's crime was lasting and inexcusable."
syon
Now Jonathan Pollards pretty much run both parties.
Though rad Muslims pulled 9/11, there's STRONG indication that Israelis knew it was going to happen. They had the intelligence.
There has been no investigation and there's been a cover-up.
We still hear of Emmett Till but there has never been a PBS doc on the attack on USS Liberty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJyCAZGRpf8
In the 80s, Milken went to jail. Today, much bigger thieves on Wall Street are not only too big to jail but get to buy and sell politicians and put their own guys to run the government policy on economics.
Milkens and Pollards are now all over Washington and Wall Street. And the media are essentially Zionist government press that is even corrupt and conspiratorial than the Nixon administration.
Any American journalist who aggressively looks into Israeli violations will be demoted, denied promotion, or let go(on bogus grounds).
Any prosecutor who goes after Israel will lose 'friends' and lose the clout to be appointed to higher positions.
Any politician who cries foul on Israel or Jewish power will lose campaign funding, be targeted by the media, or end up like Jim Traficant.
It's worse than how things were under Mccarthyism, and it's getting worse and worse.
Jewish putsch or chutzputsch is total.
Occam's principle of parsimony (his "razor") states that, in the absence of evidence, the simplest explanation is likelier to be true. But there's plenty of evidence on Pollard's crimes: only some of it's classified.
Screw that. "Evidence" is immaterial to the "Ockham's Razor" aanalysis in this case.
What I want to know is why the simpler explanation is that Pollard is in prison because of an anti-Jewish conspiracy and the more complicated explanation is that he's in prison because he deserves it.
The spook's mantra "Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations" is a great example of this "best defense is a good offense" philosophy.
If you read history or just follow the news, you often come across stories of spies betraying the agencies that hired them. I wonder if the average state derives any net benefit from having an intelligence agency. Do these agencies end up revealing as many internal secrets as they obtain external ones?
Many industries and organizations exist more for their own benefit than for the benefit of the entities that set them up. The education industry, for example, mostly exists to provide jobs for the people in it. Most people end up learning most things by doing them or by reading about them on their own.
A commenter at the West Hunter blog recently quoted the Old Testament on the issue of life expectancy:
"The days of our years are three score years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years..."
This means that except for a large decrease in child mortality humanity has derived no significant net benefit from medicine in the last 2,500 years. But the vast majority of medical spending and personnel has nothing to do with decreasing child mortality.
I wonder if the spying profession is like that too.
Stay offensive and take offense. Intimidate skeptics with your sheer brass.
Jews aren't the only people who do this but they are damn good at it. Maybe the best.
Looks like the height of arrogance: run a highly damaging spy, get him released, then laugh about it over drinks after work.
We should take a tit for tat strategy, and demand Israel turn over the Mossad agents who ran Pollard.
"Keep it up, Mr. President."
You're calling him 'mr. president'? After he appointed the likes of Kagan, Sotomayor, Holder, and so many other scum?
This is why wasps lose. They play too nice. 'mr. president' indeed!
Btw, the main reason why Obama won't pardon Pollard is because Jews here don't want him to. They own him but don't want him to appear nakedly as the puppet of Jews. Obama shoveled trillions to Wall Street and has been shhhhhh about all of Israel's abuses. If Obama pardons Pollard now, his relation to the Jewish community will be Too OBVIOUS.
But he might still pardon Pollard at the end of his term, like Clinton pardoned that scum Marc Rich.
It really irritates to hear all those flag-wavin', truck-drivin' Christian Zionist peckerwoods babbling nonsense about God's chosen Herrenvolk and how "'Mericuh's just gotta suppawrt Izrul."
These people don't have a clue what evil Israel has wrought against the United States, and if you try to explain it to them, they are often too dense to comprehend, or so brainwashed that they just don't care. "If Gawd's chosen paypull in Izrul wanted to tell the Russkies 'bout our missiles, then that was the will of the Lawd! Rapture's a-comin'! And where do you get your news anyway? Some librul queer channel that's not FOX?"
The Rosenbergs were executed during wartime -- the Korean War (during which the Soviet Union was materially aiding North Korea and China).
The Rosenbergs were not executed during wartime. U.S. belligerency in the Korean War was not declared by Congress, but was undertaken under the aegis of a UN Security Council resolution, which is why President Truman rightly called the Korean War a "police action." There was no state of war obtaining when the Rosenbergs were tried and convicted, or when they had their dates with Old Sparky.
Pollard should rot in prison.
Israel is ginning up the "free Pollard" pressure as a means of deflecting Obama from having an impact on matters such as West Bank settlements. Media-Pravda will love the "free Pollard" move, as it will give them plenty of fodder to chew, which will let them off the hook on having to report the failure of their golden boy Obama's visit to Israel to "move the peace process forward" to that ever elusive "two state solution," which will happen at about the same time as U.S. educators close the black-white scholastic achievement Gap.
It's unlikely that Pollard gave Israel American nuclear secrets, even less likely that Israel turned them over to USSR (Remember, Israel was de facto covered by the American nuclear umbrella, why would they jeopardize this umbrella, to say nothing about the relationship with the United States.)
Most likely, Pollard got blamed for the leaks that were the work of actual Soviet spies who were unknown at the time and got caught only years later, like Aldrich Ames and others.
Exchange Mr. Pollard with the Australian "Prisoner X".
Fair deal for all - make it happen.
americangoy
Meh, I remember when Bill Clinton (supposedly) was entertaining the idea of a Pollard pardon. If some over in Israel or just WashingtonPost.com ranting bloggers think it's any closer to happening today then they really aren't as savvy about American politics as they imagine. The customary quid-pro-quo here remains invisible to all but the most sheltered JDL wannabes, certainly no glaring incentive for Obama of all people. File that under wishful thinking, next to "It's past time we had a gay pope." I'm a bit disappointed Steve takes it seriously enough for a post of several hundred words.
Noah23-skidoo, hadn't seen hide nor hair of you in a while. Good to have Sailer writing something to rustle you out of the woodwork. That diatribe on "peckerwoods" sounds just like an echt bit of table-talk overheard at Uncle Mort's downtown delicatessen.
I love it when Steve drops the caustic, tongue in-cheek manner and gives a simple "Good. Keep it up."
--------
YOU DORK!!!!
Gotta toughen you up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQAwRpRe9F4
"I'm a bit disappointed Steve takes it seriously enough for a post of several hundred words."
The question of whether Shimon Peres' plea to Obama for Pollard works or not is not as interesting as the phenomenon that Pollardmania isn't just out on the far right fringe anymore, it's become a broad national craze. The usual reaction to this kind of apparent Israeli shameless knuckleheadedness is to say, "Israelis are their own worst enemies."
Yet, Israel seems to be doing pretty good. Maybe there are lessons that can be learned from Israel?
Mark Steyn notes Obama is presiding over defeat in Iraq, and Afghanistan, with ... North Korea treating him like a cheap Kleen-ex. Which means us as well.
Are you sure about this? Neither you nor Mark Steyn have spoken with Kim Jong-Un personally.
Dennis Rodman spoke with Kim Jong-Un personally and he said that Kim emphasized to him that "he don't want war" and wants Obama to call him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GixKLkai6uA
kinda expected anony-mouse to react that way...
Your help is needed immediately. Six million Jews are on the verge of starving themselves to death due to Obama's merciless and unprecedented imprisonment of a Jew for the sole crime of loving Israel, America's greatest ally. Please call the White House today and urge President Obama to release Mr. Pollard as a sign of good will for the upcoming Holy Days.
high treason -> death panelty
problem solved.
"Perhaps there are lessons to be learned from Israel's success?"
I know. The USA needs to find another country with 2 orders of magnitude greater GDP, but with an average IQ one standard deviation lower. It should then infiltrate this country and control it, so that it will then give it billions of dollars in aid.
The first step is to lower the GDP of itself by 3 orders of magnitude so that it can find a suitable country that is 2 orders of magnitude richer. The current immigration policy seems to be an attempt to get this happening.
t's unlikely that Pollard gave Israel American nuclear secrets, even less likely that Israel turned them over to USSR (Remember, Israel was de facto covered by the American nuclear umbrella, why would they jeopardize this umbrella, to say nothing about the relationship with the United States.)
Maybe better to make your own arrangements with the Soviets rather than rely on the US to exact revenge for you post mortem. As for the "relationship with the United States,"that didn't stop Israel from deliberately attacking and attempting to sink the Liberty.
Most likely, Pollard got blamed for the leaks that were the work of actual Soviet spies who were unknown at the time and got caught only years later, like Aldrich Ames and others.
Did Ames even have access to the documents mentioned in the New Yorker article?
"Pollardmania" has never been strictly a "far right" cause in Israel. I'm not aware of any mainstream politicians in Israel who think Pollard should stay in prison.
It's true that figures on the religious right have tended to spearhead this issue, but that doesn't mean they were the only ones who agreed with it.
"Stay offensive and take offense" - an apt observation. Highly applicable to US domestic (identity) politics too.
An aphorism that springs to mind is "the scots-irishman cries out in pain as he strikes you."
Anonydroid at 9:37 PM said: You're calling him 'mr. president'? After he appointed the likes of Kagan, Sotomayor, Holder, and so many other scum?
Hunsdon: You'd prefer, what? Obongo? Something classy like that? BHO is the President, properly addressed as "Mister President" thanks to George Washington. History, sir. Tradition, sir. Without these things, we are nothing.
David said: Whoa, this brought the crazies out.
Hunsdon said: Not crazies, just vigorous defenders of an ethny, or ethno-religious. If you look at it in just the right light, it was an act of poor faith on our part to notice Pollard's spying.
It may prove instructive to look at how Israel dealt with its own nuclear spy Mordechai Vanunu - Mossad kidnapped him off Italian soil and he spent 18 years in prison and now lives under virtual house arrest.
1. Pollard is a spy. He should be executed. That would end the debate.
2. This: "who traded them to the Soviets" - What is the basis for this statement?
Trade him for Vanunu and also demand they turn over the murderers of Gerald Bull.
Many Jews want Pollard released. Many know he's no good but Jews have this knee-jerk defensive reaction against ANY case of "Jew prosecuted(seen as persecuted) by white goyim". It the Inquisition Complex. So, most Jews freaked out about McCarthy even though they knew he was often right and communist-sympathizing Jews were often wrong. (Israel gave medals to those involved in the Lavon Affair--attack on US embassy to trigger war between US and Egypt--, but most American Jews, even at NY Times and NPR, have been very shhhhhh about this.)
But such sentiments exist on the right too, esp Buchanan's defense of those charged with Nazi war crimes.
On the one hand, out of tribal solidarity, Jews want Pollard freed. But if Pollard is freed, Jews fear that people will realize that US is Jewish-owned and Jews are above the law. Jews wanna be above the law--like the guys at Goldman Sachs and crook tycoons in Las Vegas and the liars who run the media--but don't wanna give off such impression. Instead, Jews want us to see them as tireless fighters for equality and justice who are still bringing down overly privileged and all powerful KKK guys at places like Oberlin.
I'm tempted to support Pollard's release because it would be an enormous PR disaster for Israel, but given the media's ability to flush inconvenient stories down the memory hole it would probably mostly just be ignored, and few people would even be aware of his release, let alone have any clue about the crimes that put him in prison to begin with.
"Anonymous said...
The Rosenbergs were executed during wartime -- the Korean War (during which the Soviet Union was materially aiding North Korea and China)."
That is irrelevant. They gave the Soviets secrets about the construction of the atomic bomb before the Korean War ever started.
"Anonymous said...
Most likely, Pollard got blamed for the leaks that were the work of actual Soviet spies who were unknown at the time and got caught only years later, like Aldrich Ames and others."
This is nothing but unfounded (and perhaps disingenuous) speculation on your part.
"Anonymous said...
It's nowhere near likely that Pollard turned over such information to Israel which subsequently turned it over to the Soviets."
And this statement of pure speculation is based on what?
Sure, Obama might turn him loose, but he's too anti-Semitic to give him a cabinet post. Linked and riffed on here:
http://ex-army.blogspot.com/2013/03/jonathan-pollard-redux.html
"It may prove instructive to look at how Israel dealt with its own nuclear spy Mordechai Vanunu"
Even worse, considering Vanunu was no spy but a whistle blower who revealed the existence of a nuclear arsenal of a non-NPT member country.
"History, sir. Tradition, sir. Without these things, we are nothing."
Even when the 'mister president' in question is working with globalists to destroy the very traditions and the constitution of this nation?
This is why anglos and wasps fail. They are more into proper form and etiquette than into the real substance of things.
What should obama be called? 'obama' or 'mr. obama'.
Of course, the media tycoons who made him want us to see him as the messiah or grand general who kicked the white boy's ass.
Newsweek: GOP, you're old white and finished.
And never ever think he is doing anything for our benefit.
Therefore, you might think that the Israeli attitude toward the Pollard Affair would be: "We shall never speak of this again." In terms of the manners and morals that your mother taught you, what Israeli society is doing in rubbing America's nose in Israel's crime against America sounds like lunacy.
Nah, that propriety stuff's for when they sink our ships or blow up our buildings dressed as Arabs or follow the 9/11 hijackers without warning us.
Obama would not need to pardon Pollard -- Jews still voted for him though he despises Israel (and them) around 75%. What is notable is that Bush 1 & 2, and Clinton, did not do so.
Hahaha, Whiskey comes in a starts playing the tiny Israel violin on this, of all threads. He's like a parody of himself at this point. Steve, you could've titled this "Jews like Whiskey have no shame" and he'd still have done it.
Pollard was a traitor, let him rot in jail forever. As far as I'm concerned.
At least he still tailors the message to his audience, lol.
We can't keep this guy in prison forever. I am amazed how some Americans fly the black MIA flag in front of their homes on 4th of July and at the same time support keeping this guy in prison forever.
Wait, what? First of all, don't act like you know more than two people flying the MIA flag, much less their opinions on Pollard. Second, Pollard is an American criminal who should die in prison, just like any other scumbag native-born criminal who crosses that line; there's no comparison to be made with POWs.
WTF! The guy has paid is dues, let him go.
It's impossible for him to pay his dues; let him rot in prison.
Let us offer to swap Pollard for those who ordered the attack on the USS Liberty. Any other surrender is Magrahi Part Deux.
Yeah, that might work.
This of course is impossible.
As Walt and Mearsheimer showed conclusively, and as all ISteve commenters will verify, the US government is a hopeless pawn in the hands of the Israel Lobby.
Pollard is obviously walking around free and Teheran is a crater. Ninety percent of American taxes go to Israel.
Its shocking that Steve writes otherwise.
Unless....
Good thing this isn't both juvenile, and a straw man argument. Look, here's a better straw man for you to wrestle with:
Jews control America, but that control is fragile and predicated on deception.
OK, I am going to call bull on this. How many guys have you ever spoken to who both fly the black MIA flag AND know who Jonathan Pollard is?
Thank you. Nobody who wants Pollard freed knows any vets, or anyone flying MIA flags.
The guys who hated Pollard the most tend to be the tiny number of top officials who have tippy-top secret clearance to read The File, like Caspar Weinberger.
Guys like Weinberger have a strong motivation to let Pollard rot for taking a dump on the assumption of Jewish-American loyalty and trustworthiness.
Blood is thicker than water, I suppose - and more inebriating than alcohol.
Many Jews will take any opportunity to throw anyone and everyone under the bus for any member of the tribe. Goes well with their whole "we're not racists!" schtick, dunnit?
[His] supporters are mistaken in believing that Jonathan Pollard caused no significant damage to national security.
More like, they don't give a damn and are just saying what they think will be effective.
Israel is ginning up the "free Pollard" pressure as a means of deflecting Obama from having an impact on matters such as West Bank settlements.
Auntie Analogue wins the prize. Diplomacy abhors a vacuum. If you don't dominate the conversation, who knows what subject might come up next?
Vanunu wasn't a spy. He wasn't spying for any foreign country. He was just a traitor.
Clinton called George Bush 1 Bush and not President Bush when campaigning against him so Clinton introduced the new tradition.
The utterly uncompromising approach of Israel is working just fine for the moment. Such rigid approaches in general work great -- until, that is, they stop working, at which point they tend to fail catastrophically.
The pivotal failure point in Israel's future is the support of American Jews. Israel is turning further to the theocratic, and genuinely racist right. American Jews -- particularly the younger generations -- are going in the opposite direction. Israel's behavior is increasingly more embarrassing for them to back. While older generations are pretty comfortable with their hypocrisy in how they support Israel vs. how decry racism in our country, the younger generations take the anti-racism seriously.
I see the support of American Jews of Israel as breaking sometime in the not-distant future. We just have to wait for enough people to die.
As an example of a country whose rigidity worked great until it catastrophically failed, consider the Soviet Union.
This is a season for religious innovation. Last week I suggested Mitt Romney for Pope, this week I'm suggesting that the Jews adopt the Catholic practice of excommunication.
No Jew actually likes Pollard but they defend him through religious solidarity. Fine, then just expel him from the Jews.
Religious innovation and reform are remarkably easy. You just make stuff up.
Albertosaurus
But such sentiments exist on the right too, esp Buchanan's defense of those charged with Nazi war crimes.
Yeah, Pat Buchanan defending people who are being railroaded is just like Israel trying to spring their boy Pollard.
But such sentiments exist on the right too, esp Buchanan's defense of those charged with Nazi war crimes.
I noticed you used "charged" instead of convicted. There is a big difference. Pollard was convicted.
"Meh, I remember when Bill Clinton (supposedly) was entertaining the idea of a Pollard pardon."
It had to be Pollard or Marc Rich, not both. It would have been much too much of a suck-up-to-Jews orgy fest if he'd pardoned both.
Clinton went with Rich, and with Chelsea marrying Rich Jr., I think we know why.
"You'd prefer, what? Obongo? Something classy like that? BHO is the President, properly addressed as "Mister President" thanks to George Washington. History, sir. Tradition, sir. Without these things, we are nothing."
------
Listen, dork, nice guys don't win. In the 1992 debates, Clinton called Bush 'Mr. Bush' and not 'president bush'.
Why did Republicans dominate the presidencies from 50s to early 90s? There was no single factor but one factor was GOP candidates were generally manlier than Dems.
Eisenhower was manlier than egghead Stevenson.
Kennedy won in 60 because he was manlier than Nixon. Also, Kennedy played hardball.
Johnson wasn't much, but 64 was just a good yr for Democrats. Tragedy over JFK, booming economy, pre-escalation in Vietnam, Civil Rights momentum, and etc. Also, Goldwater proved that toughness alone isn't enough. One mustn't come across as mean, rigid, and 'crazy'.
In 68, Nixon was manlier than Humphrey and certainly manlier than McGovern in 72.
Ford and Carter were both dorks, which is why the race was so close. Carter should have won big time due to watergate and Ford's clumsiness, but it was a very very tight race.
Reagan was manlier than Carter and won big in 80. He was manlier than Mondale, a very nice guy, and won big in 84. Bush was no 'big man' type but he was a tough guy next to Dukakis or Dorkakis.
But Clinton was manlier than Bush. Clinton was an intellectual but had southern boy swagger and charm. And Gore looked like a man next to boy man Dan Quayle.
Clinton beat the bland and boring Dole. Jack Kemp may have been a footballer, but his personality was total dork, and he let Gore kick his ass.
Bush II just barely won in 2000. Of course, he lost the popular vote and might even have lost Florida if a recount had been done. But the problem for Gore was like Goldwater's in 1964. People like tough men but not mean guys. Gore came across as mean and made some people feel sympathy for Bush the smiley faced dummy.
Bush II was in serious trouble in 2004, but Kerry was dorkier than Bush. He looked like his face was melting and words were dripping from his mouth. and John Edwards looked like Jack Tripper on 3's company.
Obama won in 2008 largely due to style. He was sometimes hard and aggressive but didn't come across as mean--to his supporters at least--because he maintained the cool poise at all times. If you got the 'cool', even mean stuff can be appealing. It's like Sean Connery is cool, so when he talks tough about how they must fight in THE UNTOUCHABLES, people root for him. Costner is a softy do-gooder, but he's toughened up by Connery who knows how one must fight to win. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight.
McCain seemed to think he was in some kind of western where he had to play the rules of honor. Obama knew that election of 2008 wasn't a western but a gangster movie. six shooters are useless against tommy guns. Old-fashioned honor is useless against jazzy urban cunning. To be sure, the media are part of the organized political crime on the side of Democrats.
Romney is good-looking and had stature, but he played much tougher against fellow Republicans than against Obama. Romney could get all fired about Israel against Ron Paul, but he couldn't get fired up about white American against Obama--but then, the media would have eaten him alive if he 'went there'.
But nice guys don't win. Tough guys with charm win. Plain mean guys like Gingrich and Goldwater don't win either.
Dems finally figured it out in 92 that they gotta get guys like Clinton and Obama, not the eggheads and dorks.
There is not necessarily a connection between antisemitism and HBD studies. But post a few more things like this and the association will take root. Decent people can think Pollard is a hero or a villain—there are points on either side. I think he should get a medal. OK, a few years in prison—he did steal, and violate an oath. But spying for a friendly country—a strategic ally—is wholly unrelated to Ames, Rosenberg and the like. An emotional position against Pollard—die in prison!—marks an antisemite. And all the cogent HBD analysis—who needs it? It’s a racist hate site.
From Stephen Mitchell's translation of Tao Te Ching:
If you want to shrink something,
you must first allow it to expand.
If you want to get rid of something,
you must first allow it to flourish.
If you want to take something,
you must first allow it to be given.
This is called the subtle perception
of the way things are.
The soft overcomes the hard.
The slow overcomes the fast.
Let your workings remain a mystery.
Just show people the results.
'Soft overcomes the hard'.
There is some truth to this. We associate the hard masculine principle with power, and the soft feminine principle with powerlessness. But the masculine principle can be rigid and unwilling to be flexible and bend in order to change to survive and/or gain greater power. So, in the end, it might become the weaker, the loser.
In contrast, the soft feminine principle may seem weak and compromising and yielding, but it may adopt new ideas and adapt to new situations and grow more powerful in the long run.
Consider the famous case of NE Asia. China and Korea were more masculine in their rigid resistance to the West. They sought to maintain their order as long as possible and disdained the West as 'barbarians'. Paradoxically, they grew weak in their show of power.
Japan, in contrast, decided to bend under Western pressure and fundamentally alter their ways. Many manly samurai accused the reformers as whores of imperialists. But the reformist whores were the ones who made it possible for Japan to grow into a great modern power.
Similarly, crazy North Korea is manlier than softer US prostitute South Korea, but the latter has become the bigger power.
Sparta was all manly rigidity but that became its very undoing.
During WWII, the ultra-manly Japanese forces called for fighting to the end and dying together with the emperor. The rather girlish emperor and some of his advisors said enough is enough and surrendered. Japan became America's geisha. But from that defeat and surrender came the new Japan that was richer than ever--and could have been a superpower if Japan had played its cards right in the late 80s.
Jews have often been sneered as unmanly but that could be one of their strengths. Jews may be feisty but they are also very flexible and adaptable. They can be successful as super-intellectuals in NY publishing or as super-populists in LA movie industry. The thing is they are willing to bend to any situation and work their way up in all sorts of games of power.
So, the American Right can't just be hardline. It must also be softline. Not soft as in 'wussy' but adaptable and cunning, like the Japanese reformers and Jews in NY and LA. Malleable to form a new mallet. Humble to forge a new hammer.
The administration is missing another great PR stunt. Why not release Dullard and blame it on the so-called sequestration cuts? Carney could shrug his shoulders and lament the admin's helplessness, blame it all on some strawmen. Hey, it works ;)
The Pres is lucky that he has no room to act/weigh in on this. O has, IMHO, no option but to tell Bibi that he can't do anything about it, so that's at least one issue where he won't need to dance. Fingers crossed.
Polltard deserves nothing but a dirt nap.
(Hey, another opportunity to post a pic of Anna Chapman has gone. Dang it.)
"It had to be Pollard or Marc Rich, not both. It would have been much too much of a suck-up-to-Jews orgy fest if he'd pardoned both.
Clinton went with Rich, and with Chelsea marrying Rich Jr., I think we know why."
Incorrect. Chelsea married Marc Mezvinsky, who is unrelated to Marc Rich.
syon
it appears likely that Pollard gave American secrets on the ultimate line of defense in case of nuclear apocalypse, boomers -- ICBM submarines -- to the Israelis, who traded them to the Soviets. That's really, really bad.
You're a total ass, Sailer.
"As an example of a country whose rigidity worked great until it catastrophically failed, consider the Soviet Union."
It didn't fail for the elites though.
In the 1917 revolution, the old elites really did fall and the new ones took over.
But the fall of communism was actually good for the Soviet elites. They no longer had to feed the people and offer public services and programs. Instead, the former communist elite class pretty much 'privatized' the entire economy--built by generations of Soviet workers--for themselves and bought yachts and rubbed shoulders with the global rich.
So, the fall of the Soviet Union was the true rise of the Soviet elites--remade into Russian elites.
Same thing in the former Soviet republics. Former communist elites cleaned up and lived better than ever, indeed better than during communist days.
It wasn't so much a revolution of the people overthrowing the elite as of the elite tossing aside the people. It went from 'we run the economy for the people' to 'we take the economy away from the people for ourselves'.
Stay offensive and take offense"
Of course. The most successful people in this world tend to combine an aggressive personality with hair trigger rage to anyone else's assertiveness.
Forget ethnicity or even politics, and just look at your everyday life. Most of the people who tend to get their way in a family, a social circle, a company, the playground, really anything setting....... always tend to be on the offense. Always bullying, always demanding, always intimidating, always trying to dominate, always manuevering ........ and when someone recripocates back, their tendency is get explosively angry and take offense.
There's no advantage in life to ever taking the high road in anything. Responding to pettiness with magnanimousness just invites more of it and marks one as a weak target. So yes, the best the best defense is a strong offense.
"Incorrect. Chelsea married Marc Mezvinsky, who is unrelated to Marc Rich."
I stand corrected.
But this Marc is also rich.
Back in the 1960s/1970s when WASPs were on top, Jews tended to emulate them and kiss up to them. Now that WASPs fawn over Jews, the tendency is berate them and slap them around.
It's almost like the better you treat people, the worse they treat you. It's almost like you're celebrated your strength, but reviled for your weakness......
"Clinton called George Bush 1 Bush and not President Bush when campaigning against him so Clinton introduced the new tradition."
That's what I say. Don't shake the hands of those who spit in your face.
Vic:"There is not necessarily a connection between antisemitism and HBD studies. But post a few more things like this and the association will take root."
Only for fools. Steve Sailer has nothing in common with genuine anti-semites. He is simply a Patriot and a realist (you know, one of those nasty people who insist on seeing things as they are, not as they should be).
Vic:" Decent people can think Pollard is a hero or a villain—there are points on either side. I think he should get a medal."
The only way someone can be both "decent" and think that Pollard deserves a medal is by not being an American.
Vic:" OK, a few years in prison—he did steal, and violate an oath. But spying for a friendly country—a strategic ally—is wholly unrelated to Ames, Rosenberg and the like. An emotional position against Pollard—die in prison!—marks an antisemite."
MMMM, odd, both of my maternal uncles are Jewish, and they both think that Pollard should rot in prison.Of course, they are both U.S. Army veterans. Following your logic, they must be self-hating Jewish anti-semites. Guess I should go and tell them.
syon
"The most successful people in this world tend to combine an aggressive personality with hair trigger rage to anyone else's assertiveness. Forget ethnicity or even politics, and just look at your everyday life. Most of the people who tend to get their way in a family, a social circle, a company, the playground, really anything setting....... always tend to be on the offense. Always bullying, always demanding, always intimidating, always trying to dominate, always manuevering ........ and when someone recripocates back, their tendency is get explosively angry and take offense."
You obviously haven't seen THE GODFATHER. No, the most successful people are NOT always bullying and on the offensive. Look what happened to Sonny? His tantrums often gave him away--Sollozzo knew he was hot for the deal--, and his impulsive nature got him killed.
To be successful, you gotta know when to be soft and gentle, when to be nice and compromising, when to be hard and tough, when to smile, when to pull out the knife.
Look how Ali defeated Foreman. Foreman was relentless but tired himself out. And then Ali knocked him out.
Look how Sugar Ray Robinson fought. He'd sometimes paw around and then go for the hard hit when his opponents least expected them. Larry Holmes had a great jab. Jabs didn't hurt his opponents but buttered them up for the right across or uppercut.
Look at Vito, Hyman Roth, and Michael in THE GODFATHER. They are the true masters of power. They know when to speak softly, when to speak tough, when to shake hands, when to order to hit. When to hide emotions, when to show emotions. This is why the old mafia guys were strict about not messing with someone else's wife. A mafia guy who didn't know how to control his passions was no good.
Though Jews are known to be pushy, most powerful Jews know when to smile and shake hands, when to pull out the knife and stick it.
Look at Google guys. Often in public, they're nice and gentle. But I'll bet they can be deadly tough in private conferences.
In sports, you pace yourself. A boxer doesn't just fling his punches cuz he'll be out of gas after a few rounds. You reserve most of your energy for the best opportunity to strike.
Same in the game of power. If you're pushy all the time, you'll alienate everyone and make them resent you. You gotta know when to go hard, when to go soft. When to use the carrot, when to use the stick. You gotta save most of the energy for the real fight.
Guys like Spielberg and Geffen know this. They can be uber-a*sholes but aren't all the time cuz if they were, they'd have no friends or allies.
No Jew actually likes Pollard but they defend him through religious solidarity. Fine, then just expel him from the Jews.
Religious innovation and reform are remarkably easy. You just make stuff up.
Albertosaurus
Historic Jewish communities already had just such a rite of expulsion. For example, it was used against the 17th century philosopher Baruch Spinoza:
"on July 27, 1656, Spinoza was issued the harshest writ of herem, or excommunication, ever pronounced by the Sephardic community of Amsterdam; it was never rescinded. We do not know for certain what Spinoza's “monstrous deeds” and “abominable heresies” were alleged to have been, but an educated guess comes quite easy. No doubt he was giving utterance to just those ideas that would soon appear in his philosophical treatises. In those works, Spinoza denies the immortality of the soul; strongly rejects the notion of a providential God—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and claims that the Law was neither literally given by God nor any longer binding on Jews. Can there be any mystery as to why one of history's boldest and most radical thinkers was sanctioned by an orthodox Jewish community?"
-- Spinoza entry at Stanford University Philosophy encyclopedia.
Has a liberal Reform Judaic organization ever issued an apology to Spinoza? These kind of apologies for historic misdeeds have been the rage for a couple of decades, and Pinker says they are actually a good thing. But they are extremely Who? Whom? The only unpredictable historic apology I can recall was that about 10 years ago the president of a West African country issued an apology for the ancestors of his country's citizens selling their fellow blacks into the Slave Trade. That was really unexpected and it's been totally forgotten ever since, but it seems pretty cool.
It would seem pretty natural for a Reform synagogue organization to issue an apology for the treatment of Spinoza (who was Jeeves' favorite philosopher). Has it ever come up?
on July 27, 1656, Spinoza was issued the harshest writ of herem, or excommunication
Notice how close this is to the Muslim word "haram" or forbidden?
"These kind of apologies for historic misdeeds have been the rage for a couple of decades, and Pinker says they are actually a good thing."
Sure, cuz 90% of apologies are to Jews.
I recall Lutheran Church apologized for what Luther wrote about the Jews.
But didn't Christians treat pagan polytheists much worse than they treated Jews? So, shouldn't Christians apologize to Wiccans and the like?
Shouldn't Jews apologize for infecting so many people--Christians and Muslims--with the intolerant ideology of monotheism and with extreme anti-homosexualism(that even I find too much. I mean gay shouldn't be stoned to death.)
"There is not necessarily a connection between antisemitism and HBD studies. But post a few more things like this and the association will take root."
So the thing that is going to lead to the conclusion that HBD is "anti-Semitic" is a post implying that Jonathan Pollard deserves to rot in prison?
Wow. This is the very chutzpah whereof Steve writes.
There is not necessarily a connection between antisemitism and HBD studies. But post a few more things like this and the association will take root. Decent people can think Pollard is a hero or a villain—there are points on either side. I think he should get a medal. OK, a few years in prison—he did steal, and violate an oath. But spying for a friendly country—a strategic ally—is wholly unrelated to Ames, Rosenberg and the like. An emotional position against Pollard—die in prison!—marks an antisemite. And all the cogent HBD analysis—who needs it? It’s a racist hate site.
There is not necessarily a connection between racism and Judaism. But defend a few more criminal traitor Jews like Pollard and the association will take root.
I nominate "Pollard should get a medal, you ANTI-SEMITES!!!" for tone-deaf Jewish quote of the year.
I have not come across any act of forgiveness made to Spinoza for his earlier treatment. I have just dug up an old introductory philosophy text I purchased during the mid-80s which contains a translated excerpt of the excommunication:
The head of the Ecclesiastical Council hereby make known that already well assured of the evil opinions and doings of Baruch de Espinoza, they have endeavoured in sundry ways and by various promises to turn him from his evil courses. But as they have been unable to bring him to any better way of thinking: on the contrary, as they are every day better certified of the horrible heresies entertained and avowed by him, and of the insolence with which these heresies are promulgated and spread abroad, and many persons worthy of credit having borne witness to these in the presence of said Espinoza, he has been held fully convicted of the same. Review having therefore been made of the whole matter before the Chiefs of the Ecclesiastical Council, it has been resolved, the Councillors assenting thereto, to anathematize the said Espinoza and to cut him off from the people of Israel, and from the present hour to place him in Anathema with the following malediction ...
Let him be cursed by the mouths of the Seven Angels who preside over the seven days of the week, and by the mouths of the angels who follow them and fight under their banners. Let him be cursed by the Four Angels who preside over the four seasons of the year, and by the mouths of all the angels who follow them and fight under their banners. ... Let God never forgive him for his sins. Let the wrath and indignation of the Lord surround him and smoke forever on his head. Let all the curses contained in the book of the Law fall upon him ... And we warn you, that none may speak with him by word of mouth nor by writing, nor show any favour to him, nor be under one roof with him, nor come within four cubits of him, nor read any paper composed by him.
-- Philosophy made simple, Richard H. Popkin, Avrum Stroll, A.V. Kelly
Sounds final.
Boy, those 17th century Jews really knew how to throw a curse.
Couldn't they just give him a stink-eye?
RE: Spinoza,
I have noticed a tendency to blame Spinoza's expulsion on the Christian authorities in the Netherlands....perhaps a good example of Jews ducking the blame? Via WIKIPEDIA:
"Second, there is ample basis to assume that the Amsterdam Jewish community, largely comprising former "conversos" having within the last century fled from the Portuguese Inquisition (and their children and grandchildren), must have been concerned to protect its reputation from any association with Spinoza lest his controversial views provide the basis for their own possible persecution or expulsion.[38] There is little or no evidence that the Amsterdam municipal authorities were directly involved in Spinoza's cherem itself. But "in 1619, the town council expressly ordered [the Portuguese Jewish community] to regulate their conduct and ensure that the members of the community kept to a strict observance of Jewish law";[39] and other evidence, such as bans adopted by the synagogue itself on public wedding or funeral processions and on discussing religious matters with Christians, lest such activity might "disturb the liberty we enjoy,"[40] makes it clear that the danger of upsetting the civil authorities was never far from mind. Thus, the issuance of Spinoza's cherem was almost certainly, in part, an exercise in self-censorship by the Portuguese Jewish community in Amsterdam.[41]
syon
You're a total ass, Sailer.
Well, that's the Sayanim vote heard from.
P.S., Syon gets today's Righteous Jew award.
@ Anonymous 3/19/13, 3:14 PM
You wrote:
"It didn't fail for the elites though.
In the 1917 revolution, the old elites really did fall and the new ones took over.
But the fall of communism was actually good for the Soviet elites. They no longer had to feed the people and offer public services and programs. Instead, the former communist elite class pretty much 'privatized' the entire economy--built by generations of Soviet workers--for themselves and bought yachts and rubbed shoulders with the global rich.
So, the fall of the Soviet Union was the true rise of the Soviet elites--remade into Russian elites.
Same thing in the former Soviet republics. Former communist elites cleaned up and lived better than ever, indeed better than during communist days.
It wasn't so much a revolution of the people overthrowing the elite as of the elite tossing aside the people. It went from 'we run the economy for the people' to 'we take the economy away from the people for ourselves'."
No comment on that directly, but permit me to observe that much of what happened after 1991 -- the bad stuff -- was due to the Clinton-era American elites looking for a quick buck in all places ex-Soviet. Not to mention the unspoken American desire to cripple the place -- i.e., Russia -- for decades.
Many Russians would like to spit on Gorby and co. ;)
We Americans have wasted a lot of diplomatic capital by always bashing Russia.
Got diplomacy?
And all the cogent HBD analysis—who needs it? It’s a racist hate site.
All the hasbara, who needs that? It's just racial bigotry
candid_observer said...
While older generations are pretty comfortable with their hypocrisy in how they support Israel vs. how decry racism in our country, the younger generations take the anti-racism seriously.
until they become old themsleves...
Pollard is in prison and Israel wants him released, not because any details about him or his crime, but simply to send the right message to current and future spies.
Israel wants to send the message: If you somehow get caught, we will bend every effort to get you released from prison, to ensure your good treatment, etc.
The US wants to send the message: If you are caught spying on us, even for an ally, we will screw you to the wall, so don't even think of doing it.
None of this has anything at all to do with Pollard. It's just about creating the right incentives for the future. The longer Pollard rots in prison, the harder it is for Israel, France, the UK, etc. to recruit people to spy on us for them, because we've made it clear that we won't let our friendly relations with their employer keep us from arranging for them to die of old age in prison.
Polite and impolite forms of address are just part of the rhetorical toolkit. "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" was much more effective than "Hey, you commie dictator, tear down this wall!" Or "Yo, dude with the funny spot on his forehead, tear down this wall!"
One big downside to over-the-top impoliteness is that the subset of the other side who were potentially reachable by your message (perhaps later, as they digest what you said in light of later things that happen) just tune you out. Start talking about Obama the Commie Socialist Muslim, and even the Obama voters who might listen to what you have to say about affirmative action or AIPAC or immigration policy will tune you out, and you will have impressed nobody not already on your side. That might make you feel good, but it won't actually help your cause our any. (Though in truth, very little politics is about policy.)
"I nominate "Pollard should get a medal, you ANTI-SEMITES!!!" for tone-deaf Jewish quote of the year."
It almost seems to have the irrational stridency of a false-flag post, the internet equivalent of one of those hood wearing actors appearing on Jerry Springer. And yet, it appears to be popular in Israel to want to pardon Pollard.
"It almost seems to have the irrational stridency of a false-flag post"
Right. Or parody.
I mean, I drop in and out of absurdist parody mode a lot, and, hopefully people, can tell. But sometimes they probably can't.
Steve, I wouldn't have seriously thought Rahm Emmanuel could leave the U.S. during the Gulf War to join the IDF, then come back for a successful career. I wouldn't have though Sheldon Adelson could said it was "unfortunate" he joined the U.S. military instead of the IDF.
We live in a country beyond parody.
Anonymous:"Steve, I wouldn't have seriously thought Rahm Emmanuel could leave the U.S. during the Gulf War to join the IDF, then come back for a successful career. I wouldn't have though Sheldon Adelson could said it was "unfortunate" he joined the U.S. military instead of the IDF.
We live in a country beyond parody."
Technically, Rahm did not serve in the IDF. From WIKIPEDIA:
"Emanuel was a civilian volunteer assisting the Israel Defense Forces for a short time during the 1991 Gulf War, repairing truck brakes in one of Israel's northern bases with Sar-El.[10][11]"
Shouldn't Jews apologize for ...
How about for helping the Ottomans collect the child tax in the Balkans? How about for assisting the Moors with the conquest of Spain? How about for assisting the Bolsheviks in carrying out the Holodmor?
Why exactly should Jews apologize for excommunicating Spinoza? They didn't kill him or sold him into slavery, just excommunicated. Catholic and other Churches have excommunicated lots of people on the ground of heresy, and still do. I am not aware of any apologies for this if the individuals in question were really heretics (other mistreatment is a different story). Religions gotta have dogmas; if you deny the dogmas of your religion you cannot be a part of it, duh.
I doubt Vic's comment above is anything but sincere. It's a parody all right, but an unintended and self-inflicted one, like anony-mouse's just above.
These comments actually exemplify the signature shticks of the my-ethny-right-or-wrong crowd. One beats up absurd straw men and declare himself winner without ever engaging the other side. The other entreats you to self-censor things he doesn't like for your own good! (Or HBD's! Or the children's!)
"Vic said...
But spying for a friendly country—a strategic ally—is wholly unrelated to Ames, Rosenberg and the like. An emotional position against Pollard—die in prison!—marks an antisemite."
If Israel subborns pentagon employees to spy for them, and trades information to the Soviets, perhaps it is neither a "friendly country" nor a "strategic ally".
Anonydroid: This is why anglos and wasps fail. They are more into proper form and etiquette than into the real substance of things.
Hunsdon: I repeat, sir, what do you prefer? Obongo? Classy as always.
Anonydroid: Clinton called George Bush 1 Bush and not President Bush when campaigning against him so Clinton introduced the new tradition.
Hunsdon: We are all Clintonians now?
Vic: An emotional position against Pollard—die in prison!—marks an antisemite.
Hunsdon: Do I get a special hat?
Stan: You're a total ass, Sailer.
Hunsdon: Develop your line of argument, Stan. Was it a good thing to have the Soviets end up with boomer scheduling?
Wikipedia: Emanuel was a civilian volunteer assisting the Israel Defense Forces (redacted) repairing truck brakes (redacted).
Hunsdon: That Rahm, he's a workin' man!
If historical apologies are a good thing, what about historical thanks-yous?
Mebbe we should the Babylonians for the Hammurabi law code?
Asian-Indians for the numeric system?
Chinese for invention of paper and chop suey?
Greeks for philosophy and drama?
Italians for pizza and spaghetti?
Germans for Bach and Beethoven?
Anglo folks for ending slavery around the world?
"anony-mouse said...
This of course is impossible.
As Walt and Mearsheimer showed conclusively, and as all ISteve commenters will verify, the US government is a hopeless pawn in the hands of the Israel Lobby.
Pollard is obviously walking around free and Teheran is a crater. Ninety percent of American taxes go to Israel.
Its shocking that Steve writes otherwise.
Unless...."
What an absurd straw man argument. You come accross like you are trying to parody your own posistion.
It is true that the Israel lobby has been challenged more since Obama was elected than it had been under W or Clinton. That's a good thing for America.
Anyone want to bet Obama will pardon Pollard before he leaves office?
Clinton pardoned members of the Weather Underground. Had Ethel and Julius Rosenberg not been fried, a Democrat president would have pardoned them (liberals bellyached for years that they were innocent).
Obama will pardon Pollard. It's only a matter of time.
Mary Phagan
Elia Kazan
Spinoza
Jesus
Nixon
Pollard's prosecutors
the Rosenbergs' executors
- all anti-Semitic dogs!
So I win. Where's my free copy of From Time Immemorial?
The Jewish reaction to Pollard's punishment might make one reconsider other incidents where Jews claimed to be innocent victims.
As for the 'but he was spying for an ally' defense, we expect enemies to spy, but many people think being betrayed and mistreated by a friend is worse. We expected better of our ally, and their co-ethnics in the US. Then Israel had Pollard stab us in the back.
Expect the waves of waaahnti-Semitic!
The Israelis might be bringing up Pollard to remind Obama (who Whiskey can tell you is Hitler part dos on Jews) that there are lots of potential traitors in his administration and agencies.
Here's Newt Gingrich doing a little dance on the Pollard case:
"Lately, no pandering seems out of bounds. Gingrich even pandered to one of the Netanyahu government’s favorite causes—clemency for Jonathan Jay Pollard, who passed American secrets to the Israelis and has been serving a life sentence in prison since 1987. “If we can get to the point where I’m satisfied that there’s no national security threat, and if he’s in fact served within the range of people who’ve had a similar problem, then I’d be inclined to consider clemency.”"
from David Remnick's artcle, "Newt, the Jews, and an invented people" (NEW YORKER).
syon
No American Jew is clamoring for Pollard to be released - he is of zero concern to the Jewish community. This might come as a great shock to your readers but Pollard was not a spy for Bnai Brith. The Israeli public, knowing virtually nothing about the case, raises a fuss every once in a while but on a list of matters Israelis really care about, Mr. Pollard does not rank. The allegation that Israel traded US nuclear secrets to the Soviets (which has no source) seems bizarre to me. If that were so, the US would have certainly broken relations with Israel. Moreover the Soviets threatened to actually USE nukes on Israel in 1956 and 1973. Would the Israelis really be so foolish as to throw away their shield? Finally, I am going to check Jewish American publications to see what they say about Ames- and the WASP/Russian plot to destroy America.
"Maybe this tendency to demand gestures of good will from the victims of your bad will serves useful purposes? Perhaps there are lessons to be learned from Israel's success?"
maybe it is a lesson that has already been learned - by Israel.
The various Palestinins have long used this tactic demanding ends of settlement programmes, release of terrorists, exit of Gaza etc etc as the price of the mentering negotiations which never go anywhere - with western powers shjowing their eagerness for everyubody top be nice by backing their calls.
Steve Sailer said...
The question of whether Shimon Peres' plea to Obama for Pollard works or not is not as interesting as the phenomenon that Pollardmania isn't just out on the far right fringe anymore, it's become a broad national craze.
OK Steve, but what *I* meant was that the so-called phenomenon doesn't necessarily have tactical significance you ascribe, since a pro-Pollard position is now obviously cheap to hold while remaining totally not-seaworthy, similar to wearing red ribbons at public functions as a way to prevent the spread of AIDS. Have you been around a college lately or talked to kids or relatives' kids subjected to such fad manias on a daily basis? I recall Mumia Abu-Jamal from my own school days; anyone with the slightest bit of direct, factual information on the case couldn't fathom the support--killing a cop being a pretty serious cultural demerit anywhere, but in white-flight Philly??--however, the notable lack of new exculpatory evidence never seemed to dampen the level of witless enthusiasm for that cause celebre on my campus. The serious/more intelligent liberals I was friends with at the time just winced and lumped in these Free Mumia apostles with the local marijuana-rights protesters.
No American Jew is clamoring for Pollard
So it's just impostor inauthentic American Jews, at the "Right Turn" blog for the Washington Post or buying the newspaper ads demanding clemency for him? Thanks for clearing that up. I used to be on the e-mail list of something called "Women In Green," a response to Women In Black but obviously targeting the demographic in the U.S. since it was in English and compiled by NYC activists. What led me eventually to unsubscribe/block them was their long-running semi-monthly written rehearsal of Free Pollard: The Musical, actually prompting a few minor arguments between members of the list and myself. That was in 2001...
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