September 29, 2009

Those are going to be some long bus rides!

As you may recall, the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision hinged in surprising proportion on an experiment done by sociologist Kenneth Clark in which black children tended to choose to play with (store-bought) white dolls over (home-made) black dolls, demonstrating (according to the Supreme Court's fearless interpretation) that segregated schools damaged black self-esteem.

From a WSJ article on a Chinese toy manufacturer who is reorienting from the American to the Chinese domestic market:
"The company had some initial hiccups. For the domestic market, the designers' first instinct was to make the dolls with yellow-toned skin and black hair, to match their Chinese owners. The response wasn't so good: It turned out many Chinese girls preferred dolls with pink skin and blond hair."

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

55 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well T99 ought to be able to spin this into some good news - at least if he's got the hots for Asian chicks [and what white guy doesn't?].

Larry, San Francisco said...

I once met a Barbie designer who worked for Mattel. She told that she had designed a Barbie doll for India that was Indian (i.e. long black hair, a bit darker). The doll was a failure. Her buyers in India said that what the girls wanted was big blonde American Barbies.

Sid said...

My guess is that,

1. In China, American culture is considered fairly chic. I have no evidence for this.

2. Blond hair is just that appealing. I have dark blond hair which lights up during the summer, and when I was in Beijing August 2006, more than a few Chinese girls wanted their picture taken with me. This is interesting, because Steve has noted how men with dark hair are more appealing to Americans.

Stopped Clock said...

All over the world, people of all races love blondes.

Anonymous said...

Usually, you can not change cultural icons successfully. For example, New Coke vs Old Coke. You can't expect Chinese girls to like Barbie dolls with black hair, slanted eyes, and yellow skin tones. They have been exposed to the barbie culture, which is a blond/blue/white female culture. You can't market chopsticks to White Americans, they have been exposed to Forks and knives already. Originality is hard to beat. imo

Anonymous said...

Google Ayumi Hamasaki or Kumi Koda, the two most popular girls singers in Japan, and see what color their hair is.

OneSTDV said...

I discussed the Kenneth Clark baby doll test awhile back.

Dumbest Way to Account for Black-White Gap

Caesar said...

Interestingly enough, I've heard Asians describe white babies as cute because they look like dolls.

OneSTDV said...

"You can't market chopsticks to White Americans, they have been exposed to Forks and knives already."

You would think so until you see all those "enlightened" SWPLs eating with them. And I'm not talking about just the nerds with yellow fever trying to attract an Asian girl.

"Google Ayumi Hamasaki or Kumi Koda, the two most popular girls singers in Japan, and see what color their hair is."

I've noticed hair coloring is also veyr popular amongst Asian males as well.

mccool said...

I've noticed hair coloring is also veyr popular amongst Asian males as well.

It was a fad in the late 90s and early 2000s (in Korea/Japan atleast, dunno about China) for both men and women. Not really that big now. Few guys do it anymore, and the girls that do tend to go for like a dark brown with reddish tinge.

Anonymous said...

"Few guys do it anymore, and the girls that do tend to go for like a dark brown with reddish tinge."

Any hairdresser will tell you that Asian hair does not dye well. My best friend back in h.s., a Korean girl, tried dying her hair that very color and it failed. She immediately tried again. We nicknamed her "Kool-Aid head" because it looked like someone poured a red drink on top of her head.

"2. Blond hair is just that appealing. I have dark blond hair which lights up during the summer, and when I was in Beijing August 2006, more than a few Chinese girls wanted their picture taken with me."

I have Philippino in-laws and we once took a casual family picture to send back to their relatives. We suddenly noticed that as we got into place, the two women came and stood by me even though couples were together, within the larger group, as is customary. I am the whitest person, by far, in the family. An older Philippina friend had educated some years before about how they view white people as extremely beautiful so I wasn't surprised.

Anonymous said...

I don't think there are any more asians dying their hair than whites.

kudzu bob said...

Some years ago, in the interest of comity between nations I kept company with an Indian statistician, a brilliant and breathtakingly lovely Marathi girl of eclectic tastes. I remember well my first visit to her apartment, delightfully filled not only with books, pottery, and paintings, but which also housed the largest collection of Barbie dolls I expect ever to see in this life or the next--miniskirted go-go Barbies, surfer Barbies, prom queen Barbies, stewardess Barbies, mountain climber Barbies, ski bunny Barbies, nurse Barbies, and dozens more.

She explained to me Barbie's scandalous origin as Lilli, a once-popular German sex toy, and also showed me various ethnic Barbies. "This one's actually from here in the States," she said, and pointed to some sort of light-hued Indian princess Barbie. "It's not authentic, I'm afraid, but I plan to get a real Indian Barbie my next trip home."

"I suppose the ones over there have darker skin," I said.

"No, not at all,” she explained. “Ours are much lighter-skinned than this one. Little girls in India would never settle for a dark-skinned Barbie."

CJ said...

Many Chinese, especially from the north and from the intellectual classes, are very pale-skinned. They are as pale as many northern Europeans, and among the Chinese darker skin seems to be associated with rural and/or lower-class origins. Anybody who has spent any time around a Chinese population will have seen women using parasols on sunny days.

There are also a lot of very pale Japanese. Paintings and sketches made centuries ago, before any contact with Europeans, depict women as paper-white.

While I'm at it, I couldn't agree more with OneSTDV about how pathetic it is that Supreme Court liberals of the 1950s were citing research as pathetically bogus as Clark's.

Anonymous said...

"Many Chinese, especially from the north and from the intellectual classes, are very pale-skinned. "

As pale faced as the northerners may be, the darker southerners run the economy.

In India, the southern Dravidians run the IT industry.

mccool said...

Any hairdresser will tell you that Asian hair does not dye well. My best friend back in h.s., a Korean girl, tried dying her hair that very color and it failed. She immediately tried again. We nicknamed her "Kool-Aid head" because it looked like someone poured a red drink on top of her head.

We're talking about completely different colors, man. You don't know what I'm talking about. The tinge I'm referring to has nothing to do with "Kool Aid" red.

RWF said...

Interesting because I remember reading that the Chinese and Korean versions of the Teletubbies had to change the 'sun baby' to an Asian looking child.

Anonymous said...

You can't market chopsticks to White Americans, they have been exposed to Forks and knives already.

Thats interesting because movies always depict American whites eating Chinese food with chopsticks, not a knife, fork or spoon in sight. Its a common enough that I even saw a website actually listing known occurrences of this movie cliche.

Anonymous said...

in the interest of comity between nations I kept company with an Indian statistician, a brilliant and breathtakingly lovely Marathi girl of eclectic tastes.

Bob, there you are! Why dont you write?

Little Bob keeps asking about who his daddy is, what can I tell him?

Anonymous said...

Having the hots for "Asian chicks" has to be the dumbest expression I have ever heard, and I usually hear it from some white redneck who probably saw some Asian model in Hustler or Monster Truck Monthly.

So you have the hots for Asian chicks - all 2 billion of them? Wow, that's pretty damn exclusive.

face book said...

Chinese dolls have been popular for years. They're Chinese looking. Barbie is Barbie--she was not Chinese, and you can only fool them so much. Like those black Friar Tucks. How about a Norwegian playing Uncle Remus? Or Malcolm X. Sooner or later the silliness has to stop.

Anonymous said...

at least if he's got the hots for Asian chicks [and what white guy doesn't?].
Me. Though they are the best looking non-whites, NOTHING matches the beauty of a white woman, both northern and southern european. Nothing.

Orientals often try to caucasianize their appearance, so a lot of what you see wasn't there to begin with a lot of them get eye fold surgery in fact its the #1 cosmetic surgery in the east. add skin lightener, colored contacts and you have a pseudo dark haired light skinned white woman but nothing matches the translucent beauty of pale skin on young white woman.

Evil Sandmich said...

Dunno but my guess would be that a white doll is like a blank slate onto which a child can mentally attach any image that they like, while an other-ethnic doll will always be just that.

As well, the Chinese foreign exchange student that we're hosting seems pretty clueless about race, such is the luxury one can have when living somewhere where this is only one.

kudzu bob said...

>Little Bob keeps asking about who his daddy is, what can I tell him?<

Tell him that now I am doing my manly best to bring about a rapprochment between Persia and America, but that so far it's not going very well...

kurt9 said...

It was a fad in the late 90s and early 2000s (in Korea/Japan at least, dunno about China) for both men and women.

Yes. The Ko-Gal style. Hair dyed blond, ridiculously high platform boots, and continually babbling into a cellphone. This style started around '95 and disappeared around '02-03.

I see Ayumi Hamasaki is still popular. She came in around 2000 when I saw posters of her put up in all of the Tokyo train and subway stations. Her music is typical J-pop and she is the perfect example of a kawai-ko-chan.

Anonymous said...

Clearly we need to integrate American and PRC schools.

-Osvaldo Mandias

Anonymous said...

Comment made to my wife in Tokyo, while toting around our newborn:

"She look like pearl! Very beautiful! Very round and very white!"

-Osvaldo Mandias

Anonymous said...

Anybody who has spent any time around a Chinese population will have seen women using parasols on sunny days. There are also a lot of very pale Japanese. Paintings and sketches made centuries ago, before any contact with Europeans, depict women as paper-white.

Possibly the most fascinating thing I've ever seen in the way of [what you might call] genetic anthropology [or anthropological genetics, or whatever] was this discovery last year that the Scots had intermingled with the peoples of northeastern Asia:

Orkney Islanders have Siberian relatives
Published: 12:01AM BST 23 May 2008
telegraph.co.uk

...But the subsequent movements around the world, via the near east, central Asia and then Europe, turned up some surprises including a strong similarity between the Sindih, a people who once lived in Pakistan, and Orkney Islanders, or Orcadians.

In turn, the Orcadians are closely related to the people who first colonised Siberia.

"Reindeer herders (a people called the Yakut) are indeed unexpectedly related to British, because one of their strongest signals of ancestry is from Orcadians, the only British population in the sample" says Dr Daniel Falush of University College Cork, a co-author on the paper in the journal PLoS Genetics.

The Orcadians, or those closely related to them in central/northern Europe, also contribute to two other North East Asian populations, the Hezhen and Han from Northern China...


It suggests to me that there might once have been a navigable route through [or around] the polar ice cap which would have allowed travel [and maybe even trade?] between far northwestern Europe and far northeastern Asia.

[Which - if all that polar ice wasn't there - suggests that the earth was much warmer in the past, but that's another topic...]

The Ainu certainly look remarkably Scots/Scots-Irish to me.


PS: A little off-topic, but check this out:


DNA tests for asylum seekers 'deeply flawed'
Jamie Doward, home affairs editor
The Observer, Sunday 20 September 2009
guardian.co.uk

Asylum seekers are to be subjected to DNA tests in an attempt to confirm their true nationalities, the Observer can reveal.

The UK Borders Agency believes this will help limit bogus asylum claims made by people arriving in the UK and pretending to have fled war zones so they cannot be deported...


Scientists Decry "Horrifying" UK Border Test Plan
Wednesday September 30, 2009 @ 03:27AM
science.slashdot.org

...'Horrifying,' 'naive,' and 'flawed' are among the words geneticists and isotope specialists have used to describe the 'Human Provenance pilot project.' The methods being used to determine ancestry include fingerprinting of mitochondrial DNA and isotope analysis of hair and nails...

Anonymous said...

This has nothing to do with race. Yellow skin on a doll is hideous, it looks like someone with jaundice.

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

Can I point out that we East Asian folks are NOT YELLOW. Hell I am probably paler than most of you...even though I am not white.

Wookie said...

"The Ainu certainly look remarkably Scots/Scots-Irish to me."

I thought the whole "Ainu are Caucasoid" thing was pretty much debunked by now. The genetic evidence apparently puts them close to the Japanese and Koreans. Only a few WN holdouts seem to stick to the "Ainu are Caucasoid" line.

Bill said...


You can't market chopsticks to White Americans, they have been exposed to Forks and knives already.

Thats interesting because movies always depict American whites eating Chinese food with chopsticks, not a knife, fork or spoon in sight. Its a common enough that I even saw a website actually listing known occurrences of this movie cliche.


What's with the goofy chopstick hate? Even extremely white suburban midwesterners like me use chopticks. It ain't some SWPL affectation --- it's fun. Well, more accurately, there are a few tragically hip SWPL twits who get all arrogant about it, but chopstick use extends far beyond that sad demographic.

Richard Hoste said...

"Dunno but my guess would be that a white doll is like a blank slate onto which a child can mentally attach any image that they like, while an other-ethnic doll will always be just that."

What? That's like the term "people of color." White isn't a color? White is a color and white features are real features.

Anyway, whites are beautiful. Sad to see them go.

Kitcher said...

Can I point out that we East Asian folks are NOT YELLOW. Hell I am probably paler than most of you...even though I am not white.

I remember when I was little I was confused by the color terminology.

Based on my experience using Crayola crayons to draw people, I wondered why whites weren't called "Peach," the color I would use to draw them, and why blacks (American at least, I don't think I was aware of the darker African blacks at that point) were called "black" when they were obviously "Brown" or "Chocolate."

As for East Asians (or just "Chinese" as I would've thought of them), I don't think I ever conceived of them as being yellow. I remember thinking of them as ghostly pale figures, though perhaps this is due to the sharp contrast with their black hair.

Anonymous said...

What's with the goofy chopstick hate? Even extremely white suburban midwesterners like me use chopticks. It ain't some SWPL affectation --- it's fun.

The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.

Fred said...

any of you guys seen the magazine rack at the drug store recently? Last week American blond actress Katherine Heigl was on the cover, ogling at her newly-adopted Korean baby. Blond babies are of course harder to find for adoption, but certainly a famous actress could have found one. So why do you think she adopted the Asian baby?

"You would think so until you see all those "enlightened" SWPLs eating with them."

For some things (dumplings, sushi rolls) they work better than forks. For Chinese food over rice, it's actually a pain in the ass. That is a stupid movie cliche.

LeFrak said...

Anyway, whites are beautiful. Sad to see them go.

If it's simply the physical phenotypes unique to whites that you're concerned about, I don't imagine them ever being lost even if whites go extinct. They would reappear either through genetic engineering or naturally.

I suppose we dwell on them because they're the most physically salient things and we evolved to identify genetic similarity primarily through visual means, unlike say certain insects that look identical but determine relatedness through pheromones and scent. But ultimately it's the line or ancestry that's of interest. If all of Africa suddenly woke up tomorrow morning with blonde hair and blue eyes but were otherwise African with the same lineage, that really wouldn't change anything, though perhaps some WNs may be relieved or pleased that these phenotypes would now have a better shot at persisting despite the dwindling white/Nordic population.

Anonymous said...

So why do you think she adopted the Asian baby?

One of Heigl's own sisters is adopted from Korea.

Anonymous said...

Any white person (especially male) who has spent much time in Asia can tell you that white people are practically worshipped over there.

Anonymous said...

"Any white person (especially male) who has spent much time in Asia can tell you that white people are practically worshipped over there."

Worshipped? Nope. I think that kind of exaggeration reflects a desperation for attention/acceptance from whoever says it.

Anonymous said...

Blond babies are of course harder to find for adoption, but certainly a famous actress could have found one. So why do you think she adopted the Asian baby?
-----

In Russia and Ukraine there are a lot of single mothers who put up for adoption.

Anonymous said...

"As pale faced as the northerners may be, the darker southerners run the economy.

In India, the southern Dravidians run the IT industry."

The darker Bavarians and Baden-Wurttemburgers (and southern Hessians) are more successful economically than the paler northerners.

Anonymous said...

Here's a free (no $) link to the story:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125417559519247515.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Mel Torme said...

"Can I point out that we East Asian folks are NOT YELLOW. Hell I am probably paler than most of you...even though I am not white."

Hey P.O. Chinaman, first of all, what color are you then? White, in the subtractive(?) colors realm, such as in paint mixing, is the absence of colors (opposite is true with light, of course). So, you fancy yourself some type of off-white or mauve or what?

Secondly, I cannot convince one south China girl that she is NOT yellow. I said, "look, I can't tell your skin from anybody with a tan." She's all "no, it's yellow, not brown." I gave up after a while.

So, go talk to her and get this figured out.

(yes, I have the hots for Oriental girls. I didn't say Asian, as that would confuse Indians with Chinese/Koreans/Japs/Vietnamese/Thai/etc. I don't mean all 2 billion of them - just the large percentage of cute ones.)

Mel Torme said...

"Based on my experience using Crayola crayons to draw people, I wondered why whites weren't called "Peach,"...."

You bring back a memory to me. I guess Crayola would have been sued out of house and home by now if they hadn't "ceased" and "desisted", but one crayon in the 64-crayon box used to be called "flesh". Haha... guess what color it was? (pretty close to peach). I'll have to look next time I'm at the toy store. Maybe now, they've taken out some of the stranger colors and included a "Mexican flesh", "Ghetto flesh" and, well, instead of "Oriental flesh" they could just include 2 yellow crayons.

Oh, I'm on the "chopsticks are stupid" side. If they had invented the knife/fork/spoon combo themselves, you'd better believe Orientals would be using them. It's a face-saving thing, the whole chopsticks charade, that is. When they know nobody is watching, they will pull out their Chinese-made Swiss Army knife with the fold out spoon and fork (and multiple knives, of course). Try chopsticks on a watermelon and get back to me. It's a riot, Alice.

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

Mel Torme...

Hey dumbass, us "Orientals" already had the knife and fork back in the day. The reason they were banned from the dinner table was because people were getting into fights with em during dynastic days...or it may have something to do with the security of the emperor. Again, East Asians are not yellow, some of us are brown but most of us are paler than you are.

On the chopsticks v. knife and fork debate, I do think chopsticks are better for dumplings and sushi and hor dourves (I know I spelled that wrong).

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

oh btw...what the hell is muave? See I think pale East Asians are white while Caucasians should be called pink.

Mel Torme said...

"Hey dumbass, us "Orientals" already had the knife and fork back in the day. The reason they were banned from the dinner table was because people were getting into fights with em during dynastic days"

So, you agree with me then about the loss of face. It doesn't take but a few jabs with the fork and knife to call it a definite "loss of face" (I guess you could die of blood loss before that.)

Oh, yeah, dumplings are easier to eat with chopsticks than watermelon is. (Is that what you meant? You've got to be clear when you use "than".)

"Again, East Asians are not yellow, some of us are brown but most of us are paler than you are.
"


I NEVER SAID YELLOW. Could you please just read? I said a south China girl insisted she was yellow, after I told her that to me her skin looks the same as a tan. If you would just read carefully, you wouldn't have to post so much.

How do you know how pale I (an albino) am, BTW? As an albino (BTW) I take offense at that. I am pastier than an English spinster doing the nasty in a vat of pizza dough (if that makes any sense to a Chinaman, or anyone else FTM )

Chinaman, you've got me on the "mauve" thing. I think one has to be a metrosexual to know what mauve actually looks like. Anyone, anyone, Buehler? (not expecting any replies at this point, so I'll see if it's one of the colors on the Crayola 64-pack - it was probably also pulled due to complaints from metrosexuals ;-)

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

Mel,

My point was that East Asians(Chinese specifically) had knives and forks, whether from the West or domestically not sure, as early as the Han Dynasty or even before. The reason that it was not adopted was that the upper class banned them from the table because warlords, soldiers and others would use them to kill each other. The adoption of chopsticks was a safety measure.

Also I think that dumplings, sushi and hor dourves are easier to eat with chopsticks than with knives and forks. Alternatively, steak is easier to eat with knives and forks than chopsticks. Alternatively a sandwich is easier to eat with your hands than with either.

As for me, I prefer knives and forks for most meals because they are easier to use. The proper use of chopsticks takes real skill and effort. I want to enjoy my meal.

FYI I am not offended that East Asians are considered "yellow", I just think it is inaccurate.

Anonymous said...

The darker Bavarians and Baden-Wurttemburgers (and southern Hessians) are more successful economically than the paler northerners.

In Italy it's the paler northerners. So what's your point?

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

Mel, ooops my bad. I did not notice the "saving face" joke you made since I was alternating between reading and responding to your post and doing some legal research...my bad. ;P

Tenor said...

East Asians have higher body fat percentages than the other races. If you've ever seen subcutaneous fat (the fat just beneath the skin) it's white with a yellowish tinge. Perhaps this is the origin of the "yellow" label. Personally, I've never really perceived the "yellow." I've always perceived East Asians as being variable along a spectrum from pale white to brown.

Mel Torme said...

Why can't we go back to using the word Oriental?* East Asian is not clear enough to me.

Chinaman, I definitely agree with your point that yellow does not describe Orientals' skin color. In fact even black for, well, Black people (haha) is not that close. Put someone's arm up against some paper paint samples from Lowes and you will see.



*OK, I guess the obvious reason is that it is un-PC, but then, why is it un-PC to begin with (like I give a rat's hootie about PC or not anyway)? "Oriental" means "eastern", just as "occidental" means "western". WTF is peoples' problem with this terminology? Plus, just saying "oriental" with respect to girls is sexy to me. (fetish, I guess, or too many old Rod Stewart songs in my head** ...)


** "On the Peking ferry I was feeling merry ...
sailing on my way back here.
I fell in love with a slit eyed lady
by the light of an eastern moon.
Shangai lil never used the pill;
she claimed that it just aint natural.
She took me up on deck and bit my neck.
Oh people I was glad I found her.
Oh yeah I was glad I found her."

Every Picture Tells a Story (Don't it?)

general torpor said...

"So why do you think she adopted the Asian baby? "

I'm still trying to figure out the whole Brangelina/Madonna fixation on sub-Saharan African babies from Africa. If they really wanted to make a statement (and that's what it is, though I'm not sure of all the psychology) they could have adopted some from here. We don't need to import any. We REALLY don't need to import any.
As for the Korean baby--Koreans have been adopted by American whites since the 50s, because there were a lot of orphans after the Korean war. Also the Pearl Buck Foundation encouraged it--i still recall the articles in Parade Magazine circa 1965 extolling the beauties of mixed Amerasians. They were cute alright, but they don't all grow up to be great beauties.
Hollywood/show business is all about fads. It was a fad during the 30s-60s to adopt, and there was an orphanage in Chicago that specialized in providing babies for celebs. Harpo Marx, Joan Crawford, George Burns&Gracie Allen, Loretta Young, and others, got kids from there.
Now, it's trendy (for whites) to adopt kids of a different race. Pretty soon it'll be trendy to adopt hybrid extraterrestrial aliens. just you wait. Everyone in Hollywood will want one.

general torpor said...

and btw, enough of the "whites are almost worshiped there." It makes me gag, and I'm white. I guess it's better than being derided, but I'm sure it depends....
It's just as obnoxious (and baffling to me) when blacks brag about their legions of admirers they are sure they have among whites, or Asian girls smug about Caucasian fetishes.
This stuff gets way more play than is really the case.