Actually, it sounds very much like Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, just less funny. From the Washington Post:
Why Asian American kids excel. It’s not ‘Tiger Moms.’
BY FRED BARBASH
Why do Asian American students outpace everyone else academically?
The most publicized attempt to answer that question — a few years ago, by Yale Law School professor Amy Chua — set off a controversy that rages to this day.
Chua’s answer, originally set out in a 2011 Wall Street Journal opinion article “Why Chinese Mothers are Superior,” was that “tiger mothers” were prepared to coerce kids into doing homework and practicing the piano, in part by calling them names. Chua (who’s latest book is “The Triple Package: How Three Unlikely Traits Explain the Rise and Fall of Cultural Groups in America) held herself and her academically successful children out as examples.
But a new study published in the journal “Race and Social Problems” by two California scholars takes on Chua, suggesting that with all the economic resources at her disposal — she and her husband are Yale professors with highly-educated parents — her children’s success is just as likely the result of socioeconomic and cultural advantages, generally cited by scholars as the main reason some children do better than others.
The authors of “The Success Frame and Achievement Paradox: The Costs and Consequences for Asian Americans” are Min Zhou, professor of sociology and Asian American Studies at the Univ. of California at Los Angeles, currently on leave at Nanyang Technological University, and Jennifer Lee, professor of sociology at the Univ. of California at Irvine.
A better way to understand Asian American academic success, they write, is to look at families who don’t have resources and succeed nonetheless.
That is exactly what they’ve done. And their findings are pretty straightforward: Young Asian Americans have all kinds of good role models to emulate.
So, it's not Tiger Moms per se, it's Tiger Co-Ethnics.
Their communities and families make sure they get extra help when they need it. Their families, even on limited resources, manage to seek out and move to neighborhoods with good schools. And they aspire to success with specific goals in mind: medicine, law, engineering and pharmacy. And they aim for the best schools.
It’s not about coercion or some mysterious ethnic gift, they write. It’s about the way they view their horizons, with extraordinarily high expectations — so high that kids who don’t rise to the occasion feel like “black sheep” and “outliers.”
Zhou and Lee studied Chinese American and Vietnamese American communities in Los Angeles without a lot of financial resources or parental higher education — factors that tend to skew other academic studies of success.
They focused on two groups: the so-called “1.5 generation” — foreign-born immigrants who came to the United States prior to age 13 — and second-generation families. They conducted 82 face-to-face interviews to get a picture of why these communities are doing so well in advancing their children through high school and college.
Here’s what they found: Although their means are limited, Asian families in the study choose neighborhoods carefully to make sure schools offer honors and advanced-placement courses. To do this, parents use the “Chinese Yellow Pages,” which the researchers describe as “a two-inch thick, 1,500-page long telephone directory that is published annually and lists ethnic businesses in Southern California, as well as the rankings of the region’s public high schools and the nation’s best universities.” They also make sure their kids get plenty of supplementary help such as tutoring.
These families have incredibly high standards, according to the study. If kids come home with a 3.5 grade-point average, parents are disappointed that it’s not 4.0 — and they show it. ...
Both groups in the study, Zhou and Lee reported, adopt a similar “frame for what ‘doing well in school’ means: getting straight A’s, graduating as valedictorian or salutatorian, getting into one of the top UC (University of California) schools or an Ivy, and pursuing some type of graduate education in order [to] work in one of the ‘four professions’: doctor, lawyer, pharmacist, or engineer. So exacting is the frame for ‘doing well in school’ that our Asian respondents described the value of grades on an Asian scale as ‘A is for average, and B is an Asian fail.’’’
Such high standards have positive and negative impacts, the researchers found.
If expectations are that high, many young people will try to meet them. They will get into Stanford and they will get that PhD.
The downside is that those who fall short — the ‘A-minus’ student’ — wind up feeling alienated from their ethnicity. In short, they feel less Asian and more, well, American.
They describe a young man named Paul who chose to be an artist instead of following the path prescribed by his parents. He called himself “the whitest Chinese guy you’ll ever meet.”
They tell of one young woman they interviewed, Sarah, who when asked whether she feels successful compared to her friends who are not Chinese, pauses “as if she had never considered that comparison before and finally replied, ‘If I were to look at my white friends of that same age range, yes I’m more successful. If I were to look at all of my friends, yes, I would say so.’”
They write:
Sarah is not unique in this regard; none of the 1.5- and second-generation Chinese and Vietnamese respondents considered measuring their success against native-born whites (or native-born blacks for that matter). Rather, they turn to high-achieving coethnics as their reference group — a finding that highlights that native-born whites are not the standard by which today’s 1.5- and second-generation Asians measure their success and achievements.
…So strong is the perception that the success frame is the norm among Asian Americans that the 1.5- and second-generation Chinese and Vietnamese who cannot attain it or choose to buck it find themselves at odds with their immigrant parents and with their ethnic identities.
In other words, slacker Asians are more likely to assimilate into white culture in high school, for which they are castigated as ethnic outcasts by their relatives: No True Chinaman Gets a B-Minus!
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67 comments:
So, apologies to Charles Murray for torpedoing his career?
But a new study published in the journal “Race and Social Problems” by two California scholars takes on Chua, suggesting that with all the economic resources at her disposal — she and her husband are Yale professors with highly-educated parents — her children’s success is just as likely the result of socioeconomic and cultural advantages,
Isn't that exactly what Amy Chua was saying? Unlike us evil genetic determinists here, she wrote whole books about how she brought up her kids in her culture in order to drive them to succeed.
Steve if you're still looking for a name for the collective group of white/Asian male STEM types the correct word would be saiyan.
her children’s success is just as likely the result of socioeconomic and cultural advantages
Can't we all just admit that "socioeconomic and cultural" amounts to Frankfurt School Doublespeak for "genetic" and move on?
Wait, aren't they validating what Chua said?
What will be the impact, I wonder, when Chinese based firms start offering, on the Black market or grey market (like in medical tourist places such as Malaysia and the Philippines) DNA enhancements for intelligence?
It is already widely suspected that the Chinese have been changing DNA in their female swimmers to enable massive gains in the London Olympics; ones untraceable. And DNA has been changed in mice in labs to make them more athletic.
You don't actually have to know how these genes work to change them, just run various tests on mice to see what combination of gene changes make them smarter. Then replicate, replicate, replicate on various other organisms such as monkeys and apes.
Uh oh.
Uh...so the authors are saying that Asians don't succeed because of demanding mothers — they succeed because of demanding families and friends?
I don't get it. This is supposed to refute Chua's thesis?
This reminds me of a guy I once knew who insisted he didn't really inherit his dad's company — he was just fortunate that he happened to grow up surrounded by the people and culture of dad's company, so when dad died, the son was the obvious choice to replace him.
Those dastardly Jina families. We should handicap them!
"Steve if you're still looking for a name for the collective group of white/Asian male STEM types the correct word would be saiyan."
Hate to bomb your spirits here bud but I think the term has seen prior use.
Bee moms.
"Hate to bomb your spirits here bud but I think the term has seen prior use."
Using that term would require dragon sized balls.
I want to know what this means:
'Here’s what they found: Although their means are limited, Asian families in the study choose neighborhoods carefully to make sure schools offer honors and advanced-placement courses. To do this, parents use the “Chinese Yellow Pages,” which the researchers describe as “a two-inch thick, 1,500-page long telephone directory that is published annually and lists ethnic businesses in Southern California, as well as the rankings of the region’s public high schools and the nation’s best universities.”'
How exactly are the "Chinese Yellow-Pages" used to "make sure schools offer honors and advanced-placement courses?"
My brain isn't processing this.
Also, hmmmm.
Let's see, someone made the "Chinese Yellow-Pages." What is the reason exactly? Obviously it tells you Chinese owned businesses. But what exactly can people do with that? Or what are they trying to do with that?
It's over people. Living in California this long, and PC hasn't altered the Chinese one iota. They don't feel the slightest compunction not to favor their own ethnicity, and will go to the extent of making a guide so they can avoid dealing with non-Chinese businesses.
And I'm quite sure not one bit of flack will go their way over this.
But if you made the White Pages, ha ha, bet you would hear something in a hurry.
Geez, I hope we wind up as Brazil. I'm starting to wonder if our fate is to be the Balkans of the Western Hemisphere.
Someone explain it to me. Why is white racism the most important thing in the world, when every day examples of other minorities engaging in the practice pop up without notice? And why exactly do the usual suspects get a stage to becry it? I mean for god's sake this ethnic group is one of the two or three most successful in the US. And not one person anywhere even notices or asks what this is for?
Will the new book by Wade have any impact on such silly writing?
BTW, STeve, what chance do you give Wade's book for becoming a required text in hard science classes and maybe even in some soft science classes?
I'd be interested in knowing if you have any idea from Cochran and Harpending if their book, "The 10k Year Explosion" is required reading for any college courses they know of and if so, do they have any idea how many?
So Asians are the new Americans. A culture that was renowned for celebrating idleness, leisure, introspection, and meditation, has come to resemble crass 19th century American ideas of hustle and hard work. And Americans are slowly coming to appreciate idleness and leisure, and achieving, dare one hope, a European level of culture. And so history comes full circle. The contact between East and West ended up barbarizing the East and civilizing the West.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Nietzsche said that primitive races generally adopt the worst vices of the civilized races, such as the Indians adopting whiskey. Obviously the Chinese are not a primitive race, but they were surely less civilized than Europeans of the past few centuries, and the Chinese seem to have adopted the worst traits of the West; the absurd Calvinist passion for hard work.
The Chinese adopted none of our virtues; creativity? science? flexible thinking? Nope. Hard work? Yup. Only our vices seem to travel.
How ironic for Ms. Chua that's it's the Chinese doing the genomic sequencing searching for "g."
Young Asian Americans have all kinds of good role models to emulate.
If on;y young African-Americans had African-American role models, they'd do better in school!
If there was a black Supreme Court Justice, for instance. Or a black Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Or a black Secretary of State. Or a black Attorney General. Or a black President of the United States.
How hard would it be for an intrepid social scientist to conduct this simple test. Visit public libraries on a school night and make a note of the race of high school students who are studying and who they are studying with (is it with their peers or with an adult mentor). I have conducted this test informally and accidentally and to my untrained eye it appears Asians are much more serious about their studies than any other race. But hey, what do I know.
I don't get it. This is supposed to refute Chua's thesis?
It's saying you don't have to be a mean mom to get these results. God forbid, being a mean Mom. Mean people suck, etc.
Too bad all their study amounts to is a slightly more fancy version of Malcolm Gladwell's tripe.
Of course SES is less predictive of success of children ("1.5" generation children) when you're dealing with immigrant groups from China or Vietnam...
I'll bet China has a lot of slackers. Out of 1.4 billion people, some of them have to be lazy and unmotivated.
The ones in the US? Not so much so.
How about Sandra Tsing Loh . Working hard on downward mobility. Or so it seems.
http://members.authorsguild.net/sandratloh/
As a likely weak hypothesis .... I think that a lot of White Americans are stuck in classical economics .... the factors of production, Land, Labor, Capital.
From the 1910 Census Questions:
The person's trade, profession, or occupation
General nature of the industry, business, or establishment in which this person works
Is the person an employer, employee, or working on his own account?
The idea of working as an employee vs working on his own account was a major distinction.
The idea of having a job was, in general, much less prestigious than working for ones self.
Professions, sure. Jobs, not so much.
No male member of my family held a job since the Civil War. Until me. I think I have a genetic aversion to coloring between the lines.
It might take more than 1.5 generations, but I think sex, drugs, and rock and roll will trump ethnicity in the end. Call me an optimist. Or pessimist.
"How hard would it be for an intrepid social scientist to conduct this simple test. Visit public libraries on a school night and make a note of the race of high school students who are studying and who they are studying with (is it with their peers or with an adult mentor). I have conducted this test informally and accidentally and to my untrained eye it appears Asians are much more serious about their studies than any other race. But hey, what do I know."
We aren't supposed to notice that a lot of Asian kids are schoolwork automatons. When confronted with this reality we aren't to acknowledge it. It perpetuates the somehow harmful and obviously untrue stereotype (what are you, some sort of racist?) of the Model Minority or the idea that all Asians are good at math or something.
And apparently this is all much worse and more painful to Asian kids than being beaten for getting a four on the AP Biology exam.
What happens when salaries for the four professions are gutted by a glut of Asians? This is happening now in actuarial science which used to be the "golden ticket" to a high level executive position in an insurance company. Now, you need to pass all the tests plus have a Harvard degree. Otherwise you are a $80k a year mid level manager.
Michael attempted:
"""And Americans are slowly coming to appreciate idleness and leisure, and achieving, dare one hope, a European level of culture.""""
To be more specific, certain groups are appreciating the idlesness and leisure time. They tend to live in inner urban areas and, as the old Puritan proverb suggests "Idle hands are the devil's workshop."
Wherever idleness exists in a fairly large measure, crime rates increase, vice and immorality uptick, and overall lacklustre (e.g. lower IQ and lower mental capacities) begin to raise their heads.
Pray that this nation NEVER emulates Europe in that sense of laziness, idleness, and a people having too much time on their hands. For someone has to do the "heavy lifting" of hard work (maintaining the standard of living for those on the dole and its most generous social benefits package).
Let's just get to the elephant in the room.
Can ANYONE for a moment even begin to entertain, much less imagine, that this type of mindset is commonplace among other ethnics? With one specific one in particular?
I mean, the columnist did a favor by comparing the Asians to evil, bad, white westerners but he could just as easily have made comparisons to another group that has been residing in America for nearly as long as whites (and certainly longer than most Asians have).
Yet he didn't. Very interesting. In other words, EVEN in the columnist's eyes, comparisons with Asians to academic studies, education, basically smart stuff (IQ related fields of endeavors) the one group that Asians are directly for the most part compared to...are with white people.
Very telling. In other words the columnist subconsciously would just naturally assume that "well, if there's one group that maybe could compete with Asians in the classroom, it's gonna be whites."
In other words, that's just a given. I mean, who else could even POSSIBLY compete with Asians in IQ related things (e.g. Sciences, STEM, education, etc).
Very, very telling of even the media's subconscious mindset.
As an academic washout Asian (relatively speaking), I'm completely feeling you here.
Especially Whiskey, jody, and education realist.
Only Asians could be dumb enough to get straight A's and admitted to Harvard and MIT's undergrad and grad programs. The loser schools. What fools.
Not all stereotypes are true.
I am a Generation 1.5 Asian. My parents spoke almost no English, worked in a low-end Chinese restaurant, and we didn't get along at all. The Asian population in that area was less than 1%. I certainly didn't have a tiger mom or dad.
I did almost no studying, slept in during high school to the extent that I could get away with it, and went to the local (non-competetive) college. I spent the first year playing pool, pinball, and getting high.
My high school and college grades were all sky-high, except for the ones where I missed the midterm tests because I had skipped the classes where they were announced. (Pre-internet days.)
I went on to med school, and have done OK. I can't attribute any of that to family insistence on education or co-ethnic pressure. What saved me was purely my very high IQ, which required no effort on my part.
Can it be that most of the Asian-American academic success is due simply to higher IQ?
""""Not all stereotypes are true."""""
For stereotypes to be most effective they must contain several elements of truth.
In your case, you actually just proved the stereotype true without realizing it. You came from immigrants who couldn't speak English (which means that they perhaps didn't grow up even reading in English since Asia doesn't have a Western Alphabetical system) and yet ended up in the medical field, and not in the 'environmental services' dept. either.
Question to consider: IF another type of American ethnic, were to follow along those lines, up to the part of goofing off during college yrs, who really believes that they'd end up in the medical field?
It's somewhat embarrassing to various groups that have been in this country for centuries and yet their grades (not to mention their IQ) is nowhere near the level 'ideally' that it should be.
Really. Every major ethnic group that has been here for oh, say about 2-3 centuries have no real kick coming. If you're heritage has been at least back to antebellum days, that means that your first language is English. There aren't any major hurdles to overcome and certainly not for at least 60plus yrs since about '54 w/a major Educational Decision at the Sup. Court level.
Nope, no kick coming and definitely few excuses.
Tigers' cubs are putting a lot of native borns to shame.
"Can it be that most of the Asian-American academic success is due simply to higher IQ?"
Probably not. Breezing through stuff is what most of the smart white kids do through high school and college.
What you're doing is conflating personal experience with general experience. Look at any mass of FoB Chinese, Koreans, or Vietnames and most of them are being forced to autistically grind their way into the ivy league regardless of any genuine appreciation for the objects of study.
""""Look at any mass of FoB Chinese, Koreans, or Vietnamese""""
Yes, let's do so, shall we?
""""and most of them are being forced to autistically grind their way into the ivy league"""""
Stop with the nonsense already. You have to have the grades per se, to actually be admitted to the school, you do know that, right? Doesn't quite sound like it. You're under some impression that what? They all cheated their way into Harvard, etc?
ALSO: Most of these schools tend to keep a lot of Asians OUT of these schools in favor of other ethnics, especially in CA. So if anything, there are perhaps a ton more of Asians that could be admitted into the Ivies and blue chips but the total number is being artificially held down in favor of other admits.
Also, note this as well: Many of these Asians do not come from well connected families that can pave the way for them. In other words for now at present, there aren't that many Asians who are legacies when applying to the Ivies.
We don't yet see a lot of Junior Chow the fourth or Travis Sen Yan Ho the fifth applying to Yale in the same way that we do see George Bush the fill in the numeral as of yet.
""""regardless of any genuine appreciation for the objects of study.""""
Yeah, ok. Whatever. Yeah, all the Ivies contain nothing but students who fully appreciate the objects of study, what total crap. Come come now.
Come, come now! Who are we kidding? These 1.5/2nd gens are coming from NO background. They're for the most part unconnected outside their rice bubble of a world, their background? NO English two gens back and no written alphabet 1-2 gens back.
And yet these Tiger Cubs are credibly applying for Ivies entrances?
That's truly incredible. Horatio Alger by way of Albert Chan.
Why can't other groups who've been here longer do the same.
Again, they have no kick coming.
Look on the bright side: there was an entire article about a minority in the WaPo without any discussion of how the white man is holding them down.
"""Chief Seattle said...
Look on the bright side: there was an entire article about a minority in the WaPo without any discussion of how the white man is holding them down."""
Agreed. If anything, it sounded as if the white writing the article is projecting a certain amount of envy or jealousy onto his own tribe along the lines of "These Asians are so darn smart, aren't they? Wonder why? And....are we whites as smart as they are in actuality?"
If anything, there was a not so subtle attempt to excuse away or minimize the achievements of the Asians at large.
Its kind of akin to whenever blacks notice that they maybe they're not quite as good as something as whites and so hurriedly look for an excuse to calm and soothe their uptight nerves.
In the case of the article, ot exactly sure why this is the case. Whites have been doing the Horatio Alger storyline for over a century in various endeavors and I daresay some are still rags-to- riching it even today.
All I know is that that I grew up poor, abused, with parents who spoke no English.
I have done well, but it is due to having a very high IQ, which is almost certainly a genetic flip of the coin.
""I have done well, but it is due to having a very high IQ, which is almost certainly a genetic flip of the coin."""
No, it is not. IQ is genetic and genetics are inheritable, they had to come from somewhere; they can be somewhat "manipulated" either way.
A coin flip is more akin to what one does when they scratch their tix and get 10 dollars at the 711. That's far more random and chance based, almost accidental based.
Again, other ethnic groups have been in US for centuries and have, so far, been unable to reliably produce similar results without some "assistance" (affirm. action, set asides, quotas or else being sued by the gov., etc) of some form. Apparently, their genetics simply are not living up to others' genetics and must be helped by outside "assistance".
"Why can't other groups who've been here longer do the same.
Again, they have no kick coming."
Anon you're responding to, here. I agree completely that Asian success is significantly genetic. Their methods and practices, however - whether derived of biology or centuries of byzantine Confucian bureaucracy - are, I don't know, depressing? Uninspiring? Alien?
""""I agree completely that Asian success is significantly genetic.""""
Ok, way way wait. Are you the dude who thinks that laziness ER...idleness or idle reflection inward is a good thing or something or other?
Good, then if it's genetically based, then AGAIN...the other groups that have been here longer and in point of fact some of them (e.g. whites) are nearly as smart or at least could compete within the same fields (STEM, etc) so then, what's the problem.
They have no kick coming.
Tiger Cubs are outdoing the natives.
"""Their methods and practices, however - whether derived of biology or centuries of byzantine Confucian bureaucracy - are, I don't know, depressing?"""""
Ok, whatever dude. This is way too ephemeral. No wonder the Tiger Moms are having a field day running roughshod over others. With folks inwardly navel gazing and wanting to be idle about stuff. Hm...yes, quite interesting all in all. I did hear about a student who for his graduate doctoral thesis decided to research the inner habits of fruitflies and how we all can knowingly be just like them inside.
That kind of bull session is what this all is reminiscent of.
"""Uninspiring? Alien?""""
When really the power of love should overcome the love of power and after all, "All you NEED is love."
I gotcha now. Ok.
Again. They have no kick coming.
"Can't we all just admit ...?"
No, we can't. First you'd have to establish a large control group of black kids who (a) come from two parent households and (b) have been insulated from underclass notions of black "authenticity," I.e. studying is uncool. What makes these "researchers" fraudulent is that they, along with everyone else who wants to make a careerin academia, won't acknowledge the salience of the second obstacle.
Tiger mom vs White Dad
Jaynry Mak Young, Former S.F. Politico, Ordered to Stay Away From Her Kids
"threatened to cut off Tanner's hand if he did not complete his Kumon math packet,"
http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2013/11/jaynry_mak_young_former_sf_pol.php
I used to teach in the San Gabriel Valley, east of Los angeles, ground Zero for Chinese immigration. I never heard of the Chinese Yellow Pages, but I knew that many of those Chinese kids not fortunate enough to live in Arcadia or South Pasadena would get some more fortunate relative to let them claim residency. Arcadia High School was full of illegal Chinese from San Gabriel and Rosemead.
In more recent years, the Chinese have been taking over San Gabriel, and no longer need to sneak into other towns' schools. The Mexicans are being displaced, and they don't like it. Alhambra and Temple City are next, if they're not Chinafied already. (Don't know, I don't live there anymore)
If you want a look at loser Chinese, try Pasadena City College. When I last looked, it was full of Oriental kids who apparently didn't even make it into Cal State L.A. From the look of them, I'd say they were hipsters. Do Chinese high achievers go that way? Maybe they are more American than their bright cousins.
And, as must always be mentioned when the matter of Chinese superiority comes up, the Chinese who come here are not typical. They are selected.
She says all the advantage is lost 3 generations after immigrating for all ethnicities (except Jews). Fact is this Asian diasopra is quite unable to get traction to get into their chosen universities. So don't give me all this powerful culture business. The recent Chinese agitation about race based admissions was by no means them being agressive. they have been so squeezed out of the top universities (relative to their exam results) that they just can't afford to give any more.
In China they have boarding kindergartens for the elite's children, who live there mon-fri and come home to the parents at weekends. The idea is to stop them being overindulged. There was a BBC WS program about it. An Australian woman who worked there as a teacher said she'd protested that the kids (as young as 3 years old) got up at 7 am, and were still having English lessons at 9pm. They are all screaming and crying on Monday morning. It's a culture that works due to the Chinese having a genetic propensity to submit themselves to it.
Tiger Cubs are outdoing the natives.
Just thought I'd point out that the Tiger Cubs are outdoing the natives in China, too. And for that matter whites in China are outdoing the natives there, too.
Can it be that most of the Asian-American academic success is due simply to higher IQ?
Of course. Did the study consider IQ? I don't even have to check.
How Asian parents read report cards, according to my non-Asian daughter:
A+: Adequate
A: Average
B: Below average
C: Cancel everything, can't have dinner
D: Don't come home
F: Find a new father, f-----
One observation is all these immigrant stories are about Chinese success. But isn't it Indian-Americans who are the most successful? An Indian-American is now running Microsoft. That's an incredible achievement.
Do Indians have a similarly strict upbringing? What's the reason for their success?
Madam Chua,
You are in a narrowing envelope of the final death throes of the white elites and their several putative but ultimately unfit successors whom we need not name, you are in fact madam capitalizing on the death throes of the white man's burden, white guilt. You are also capitalizing on their hatred - justly based on fear - of the rise of non-elite whites. If you don't believe me turn on the TV, anything ___NBC shall confirm this for you.
Now cheer up for if we don't come to claim our birthright/survival, this enterprise collapses into a bloodbath. You can always go back to China. Maybe.
I might point out however that for all the testing smarts apparently your failing geography, and by fail I mean Darwinian. You are 10K miles from where you truly get to be the @sshole. That privilege remains - ours.
"Them Yankees built the schoolhouse before they built the Church. When I saw that I knew we were doomed. They wanna run the world, we just want to live."
Except they no longer wish to run the world including ours, or even to live. This madam is your envelope and it's closing.
Ta
I think anon at 4/8 6:38 was saying that as a 1.5 generation Asian with no support from parents or fellow ethnics, he became a doctor because he was smart. His IQ was mostly genetically determined, as he said, and maybe there is too much attention paid to tiger parentship.
His IQ was mostly genetically determined, as he said, and maybe there is too much attention paid to tiger parentship.
Or perhaps they go hand in hand. Notice, very few lower IQ ethnics or parent groups tend to be all that much enthused about their kids education. It's like "oh well, if they do they do, if they don't, well they can always go into shop and learn a trade or something. Who really cares? If it's meant to be...que sera."
Que Sera is NOT in the Tiger mom's vision for their cubs. Not by a darn sight. Nothing is left up to chance and you have to sometimes give the cubs a push in the pants, so to speak.
They'll be time enough for group kisses and hugs AFTER the cub has made it into Harvard or a suitable place.
Yup, those already here have no kick coming.
One observation is all these immigrant stories are about Chinese success. But isn't it Indian-Americans who are the most successful? An Indian-American is now running Microsoft. That's an incredible achievement.
Do Indians have a similarly strict upbringing? What's the reason for their success?
Indians from India, for whom English is their first language, followed by their regional tongue, with Hindi as a distant third language (for those whose mother tongue isn't Hindi). It would be a neat trick for Chinese from China to end up running American companies, given the language issue.
Breezing through stuff is what most of the smart white kids do through high school and college.
I hate to burst the fantasy bubble of a "soft" white supremacist, but even very smart kids have to hustle quite a bit nowadays to gain entrance to (what another commenters called) a "third-tier" Ivy League university such as Brown. I should know. I interviewed applicants for some years as an alumnus.
There are extremely few high school pupils who are so gifted that they can "breeze" through a very competitive high school. The vast majority of students, white or Asian, at places like Brown or even Harvard and Yale are talented "grinders."
Look at any mass of FoB Chinese, Koreans, or Vietnames and most of them are being forced to autistically grind their way into the ivy league regardless of any genuine appreciation for the objects of study.
And you know this how?
But isn't it Indian-Americans who are the most successful? An Indian-American is now running Microsoft. That's an incredible achievement.
Do Indians have a similarly strict upbringing? What's the reason for their success?
Indeed, Indian-Americans are the most successful group among "Asians" in the United States in terms of earning power and educational achievement. First, they come equipped with decent English skills. Furthermore, I suspect their immigration (self-) selection is vastly different. Unlike, say, Seoul or Taipei or even Shanghai, even posh areas of India are not fully first world. There are much stronger incentives for South Asians -- rich, educated ones -- to migrate to the West than there are those for East Asians (and let me emphasize here again that not all East Asians are Chinese -- too often on these pages Chinese is used interchangeably with East Asian).
Indian immigrants today are much more highly selected than East Asian immigrants. On the other hand, the average Ph.D. per capita in Seoul is likely the highest in the world while Indian cities are full of illiterates.
As for Indian upbringing, try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI
""""It would be a neat trick for Chinese from China to end up running American companies, given the language issue."""
But that's the thing, isn't it? The fact that there are Chinese here who are doing academically superior within 1-2 generations is quite spectacular, given the fact that they didn't come from a nation where English is the first language let alone regularly us a Western Alphabet.
Also, the story does not make mention of Chinese-Americans who have been here for several generations going back at least 150yrs.
Does anyone know how the Chinese-Americans who have been here for well past a century do as apposed to Amy Chua types of only a few generations? They're the come latelies when compared to those who have been here for over a century. Wonder how Chinese of US descent of at least 5-6 generations do in the classroom?
Would guess its probably the same as the newcomers. I mean, you don't read very often of academic problem children named Julius Chan or Mark Ling. "He came from such a good family, upstanding in the community, can't understand it, and he was always trying to find himself, etc."
Nathaniel Weyl studied Old Chinese-Americans (e.g., people named Wong who came to build the railroad in 1869) v. New Chinese-Americans (people named Wang who came to study medicine in 1968). The newcomer Wangs are out ahead of old time Wongs.
It has to be said, however, that a list of foreign-born Chinese American entrepreneurs who founded significant companies does exist:
An Wang (Wang Labs).
Garwing Wu, Bernard Tse, and Grace Tse (Wyse - of Wyse Terminal fame)
Charles Wang (Computer Associates)
Albert Wong, Thomas Yuen (AST Research)
Jen-Hsun Huang (Nvidia)
Lee Ka Lau, Francis Lau, Benny Lau, and Kwok Yuen Ho (ATI Technologies)
Min Kao (Garmin)
Jerry Yang (Yahoo)
Without these people, the companies they founded might not have come into being. It's hard to say the same for the foreign-born Indian Americans who maneuvered their way to the top within already successful companies like Pepsico, Citigroup and Microsoft.
Steve Sailer said...
Nathaniel Weyl studied Old Chinese-Americans (e.g., people named Wong who came to build the railroad in 1869) v. New Chinese-Americans (people named Wang who came to study medicine in 1968). The newcomer Wangs are out ahead of old time Wongs."""
That is interesting and not what would normally be expected. Wouldn't it make sense that those who have been here longer would have a few legs up on the newcomers?
After all, per another prominent ethnic that has been in the US for quite some time. Whether named Bernstein or Burns, the older Ellis Island offspring and the newer ones of about, say, post WW2, are both quite doing well.
But no one would say that the descendants of Ellis Island era are falling behind the newcomers.
But thanks for the info re: Wang and Wong. Doesn't quite add up all the way when compared to the norm for ethnics, but its helpful for a larger context regarding the Chinese.
""""Without these people, the companies they founded might not have come into being."""""
Yeah, ah....um...let's not quite go down this road. Microsoft, Apple, etc. were founded by non-Chinese after all. The point is made but don't have to overstate something that may or may not be entirely accurate.
"""It's hard to say the same for the foreign-born Indian Americans who maneuvered their way to the top within already successful companies like Pepsico, Citigroup and Microsoft."""
Now that's basically correct. Also, what about those Indians who immigrate where Islam is the main religion? More in the North, but something to consider. Might that bring down the total IQ of Indians? Which region is smarter, the north or the south?
That is interesting and not what would normally be expected. Wouldn't it make sense that those who have been here longer would have a few legs up on the newcomers?
After all, per another prominent ethnic that has been in the US for quite some time. Whether named Bernstein or Burns, the older Ellis Island offspring and the newer ones of about, say, post WW2, are both quite doing well.
But no one would say that the descendants of Ellis Island era are falling behind the newcomers.
But thanks for the info re: Wang and Wong. Doesn't quite add up all the way when compared to the norm for ethnics, but its helpful for a larger context regarding the Chinese.
Until perhaps the 1980's, discrimination was probably a serious problem for previous generations of Chinese. Jews are white. Indians have been able to pass for white and were considered whites with a tan. The Chinese simply could not hide their ethnic origins. I was personally acquainted with a Chinese American guy who was born in NYC and graduated from CUNY with engineering degree back when CUNY was more or less a public Ivy. He was unable to get a job as anything other than a janitor after graduation. He went to China for the first time, and became a Colonel for the Chinese Nationalist Army during during the Sino-Japanese War in the late 1930's, despite speaking very little Chinese. He came back to the US after WWII and encountered the same problems finding a job. Meanwhile, his fellow Nationalist officers who fled to Taiwan, after the Communist victory in 1949, became high officials within the Taiwanese government and in private industry. His regret was always that he came back to the country that spurned him. In a sense, he lived out the William Faulkner aphorism: "The past is never dead. It's not even past".
Yeah, ah....um...let's not quite go down this road. Microsoft, Apple, etc. were founded by non-Chinese after all. The point is made but don't have to overstate something that may or may not be entirely accurate.
It's a tautology. Without Bill Gates, Microsoft might not have come into being. Pepsico would exist even if Indra Nooyi had never been born.
To do this, parents use the “Chinese Yellow Pages,” which the researchers describe as “a two-inch thick, 1,500-page long telephone directory that is published annually and lists ethnic businesses in Southern California, as well as the rankings of the region’s public high schools and the nation’s best universities.” They also make sure their kids get plenty of supplementary help such as tutoring.
These families have incredibly high standards, according to the study. If kids come home with a 3.5 grade-point average, parents are disappointed that it’s not 4.0 — and they show it.
This is distinct from tiger mothering how? Because it insinuates a tiger father is also likely involved?
"No satisfactory explanation has yet been found for this bizarre behavior on the part of white racists, who would have been expected to hate all non-white races and thus give all of them bad environments, and the yet evidence is unmistakeable: white racists routinely give asians the best environments. "
That explains it so clearly! White racism gives Asians the best environments and that's why they do well. In a nutshell.
Anon said "It has to be said, however, that a list of foreign-born Chinese American entrepreneurs who founded significant companies does exist:
An Wang (Wang Labs)"
An Wang left IBM with the concept of core memory and promptly patented it. He (and other engineers) was working on it there.
That is why (at least when I started working in the IT biz in the early 90's) engineers etc and the larger tech firms are required to sign all sorts of agreements that intellectually property developed while working there belongs to their employers.
Under slightly different circumstances Wang Labs (went tits up in the late '90s) never would have existed.
Apologies to any and all for my typos, misspelled words, grammar, etc. The iphone is a brutal platform for commenting
If you want a look at loser Chinese, try Pasadena City College. When I last looked, it was full of Oriental kids who apparently didn't even make it into Cal State L.A. From the look of them, I'd say they were hipsters. Do Chinese high achievers go that way? Maybe they are more American than their bright cousins.
I would suppose they did not want to go to a Cal State and are trying to UC jump.
Steve Sailer said...
Nathaniel Weyl studied Old Chinese-Americans (e.g., people named Wong who came to build the railroad in 1869) v. New Chinese-Americans (people named Wang who came to study medicine in 1968). The newcomer Wangs are out ahead of old time Wongs.
The recent Pew study on Asians in America concluded that new Asian immigrants are better educated than those of the yester years. Indeed the latest cohorts of Asian immigrants as a whole are the best educated immigrants in our history.
Still, some variations exist among different sub-groups. Overwhelmingly the Indian ones possessed higher education and earning compared to East Asians. Given that East Asia is much more developed (esp. Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and larger Chinese cities) and much of India is mired in abject poverty and illiteracy with no signs of improvement, I'd say the conclusion is inescapable that the selection effect is very powerful among Indian immigrants. In other words, we are getting Indian elites and East Asian rejects.
Of course, Indians are like Jews -- highly educated and high income, but vote like blacks do (90+% Democrats), perhaps because they are "the others" in religious terms like Jews. Koreans (evangelical Protestants) and Vietnamese (traditional Catholics) do worse economically (and far worse in the case of the Vietnamese), but they tend to vote more like white evanlgeical Protestants and white traditional Catholics. And those under-performing East Asians are far more likely to marry whites and live in white neighborhoods than Indians who tend to have the lowest intermarriage rates (again, per the recent Pew Study).
So Indian immigrants are better in technical terms, but East Asians are better for assimilation.
"""Indeed the latest cohorts of Asian immigrants as a whole are the best educated immigrants in our history.""""
Not so fast. This is subjective and debatable. Can't be objectively and conclusively proven either way.
Because IF you state that they are just like the Jews, well then....someone before the dots were once all that and a bag of chips and then some.
""""Of course, Indians are like Jews -- highly educated and high income...""""
NOBODY....is like the Jews, just ask them. Mark Twain used to remark that there must indeed be a God, since the Jews have lasted as long as they have.
And their (going back to the times of the Hebrews) civilization is older than India's.
I would say there is something special about yhebjews, even their relatively recent burst of intellectual achievemenrs.
During their Babylonian captivity, instead of admitting their tribal god must have been a loser in allowing his worshippers to be defeated and enslaved. the Jews instead made the astonishing jump to the claim that their god was not only the most powerful, but the *only* God.
That takes breathtaking chutzpah.
And their (going back to the times of the Hebrews) civilization is older than India's.
Only if you assume Adam lived to be 800 years old.
""""And their (going back to the times of the Hebrews) civilization is older than India's.
Only if you assume Adam lived to be 800 years old."""""
Uh, the correct phrase is "Only if you assume that Adam lived t obe 930 yrs old." Always strive for accuracy in the sarcasm.
It is not entirely dependent upon the additional cent. plus, however. Also remember that UNLIKE India of that time, the Hebrews actually did keep a written record of their genealogies.
In fact, the Hebrews and later the Jews were unique in that they were among the worlds fewest groups to place emphasis on WRITTEN evidence, and written (not oral based society alone)
The poverty among India then as well as now is horrifying and frankly, approaches 3rd world levels. Ancient Hebrews or modern Judaism knew/knows nothing of that level of poverty and by their diety's grace, they never will.
But do try again, old sport, keep on trying.
As Mark Twain would have observed: Don't bet vs the people of the Book, as opposed to people of the erotic temple statues.
And their (going back to the times of the Hebrews) civilization is older than India's.
And you have to make the breathtaking assumption that a bunch of mostly illiterate tribesmen wandering in the desert = civilization.
"And their (going back to the times of the Hebrews) civilization is older than India's."
And then you(anon.) stated:
"""""And you have to make the breathtaking assumption that a bunch of mostly illiterate tribesmen""""
Thank you, sport. The KEY word is mostly and not 'ALL' as the dots were at the time and had oral but not written to transmit their sociological aspects to their ancestors.
Carry on.
"""""wandering in the desert = civilization."""""
So THAT explains what all those Northerners were doing wandering about and getting burnt to a crisp in the Gobi Desert!
And as a result of their mirages, they ended up building the erotic temple statues.
Thank you for the clarification and you do have a good day.
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